Progressives need to leave Obama

[RGacky3]

As of now, I don't even think Obama is the lesser of 2 evils, he's Joe Lieberman, the sad thing is that REAL progressives, who criticize almost every corporatist obama policy he passes, still support obama, just because they are scared of hurting the democratic establishment.

Under Clinton the democrats stopped being progressive, under obama they are now straight up corporatists.

AT THE SAME TIME as democratic groups are running ads against republicans saying they want to cut and privatize medicare, Obama is making deals with republicans to cut medicare and cut corporate taxes ....

If your voting vote green, if obama is primaried from the left (I hope he is) get him out.

[southernmissfan]

What will voting Green do? Will the Green Party defeat the Democrats and the Republicans? And let's say, hypothetically just for shits and giggles, that the Greens did win the presidency...would they not be subject to the same pressures?

[RGacky3]

What it will do is pull the washington consensus to the left, I don't care if they win or not, as long as it scares enough democrats into not going along with corporatist policies.

[progressive_lefty]

I personally believe that Obama's faults are more attributed to the right-wing mess America finds itself in. Half the centrist ideas of Obama are being shot down by the GOP and its pals in Fox News as being 'far left'. How can anyone approach to criticise Obama when he is working within such a narrow political spectrum in the US? All of his efforts to bring about affordable healthcare are nothing like the systems which are used in many social democratic countries ie. Sweden, UK, Australia, Norway, Canada.. I think some of Obama's thinking is to work right in order to work left. Look at the recent mid terms, the Republicans and the Tea Party now control much of the decision making. No one can expect that Obama will have a magic wand for all of this. Everyone just has to thank God that McCain or Hillary was never elected.

[RGacky3]

How can anyone approach to criticise Obama when he is working within such a narrow political spectrum in the US?

Which is absolutely HIS choice, and its not the political spectrum amung the public, its only the washington spectrum.


I think some of Obama's thinking is to work right in order to work left.

How the hell would that work???


. Look at the recent mid terms, the Republicans and the Tea Party now control much of the decision making. No one can expect that Obama will have a magic wand for all of this. Everyone just has to thank God that McCain or Hillary was never elected.

Which was because he did NOTHING his first 2 years for progressives, and he only gave more and more to the right.

and guess what the republicans control the house, THATS IT, he can still fight, he can still push, except he does'nt, he concedes everything, and then gives them more.

No we don't have to thank god, I think either of them would have been better, I think Hillary might at least have fought for progressive things, if only to play the politics, and if McCain was elected we'd have a proper opposition.

Look, if he fought the fight and lost, thats one thing, he never fought the fight, HE killed the public option, not the republicans, it was passed without one republican vote without the public option, HE gave them the tax cuts, without anything in return, HE watered down financial reform.

I blame Obama for what Obama does.

[progressive_lefty]

We disagree on that then. I personally believe like some others, that Obama has achieved a lot considering the bizarre nature of American Politics. The whole basis of the Tea Party's movement was against Obama's so-called 'socialist platform'. I personally think he is intelligent, at any moment in the US a representative can be politically assassinated. Obama is obviously working with a radical rightwing in the US, and when I mean he was/is trying to work right to work left, I mean that he is trying to win over most Americans that are exposed to the simplist GOP policy positions and are influenced by its news network in Fox. Clinton never ever managed to get healthcare reforms through, and for what Obama got through it is obviously a massive step towards further coverage of American citizens. And for what he has got through, it seems very likely the Republicans will kill it off. No-one can blame Obama for that.

It's far easier to criticise Obama then the Republicans or Fox News.

[CornetJoyce]

Tell progressives what you think.

http://www.ppionline.org/

[#FF0000]

What it will do is pull the washington consensus to the left, I don't care if they win or not, as long as it scares enough democrats into not going along with corporatist policies.

this is an anarchist

[RGacky3]

talking about American politics, but you can sit and wait for your glorious mass revolt.

[RGacky3]

that Obama has achieved a lot considering the bizarre nature of American Politics.

Like what?

Also what bizzare nature? He had EVEYRTHING the first 2 years.

What progressive thing has he passed???


I personally think he is intelligent, at any moment in the US a representative can be politically assassinated.

Intelligent by giving the republicans everything? as if by doing that republicans will be nice.


Obama is obviously working with a radical rightwing in the US, and when I mean he was/is trying to work right to work left, I mean that he is trying to win over most Americans that are exposed to the simplist GOP policy positions and are influenced by its news network in Fox.

Why is he working with poeple that have no intention of working with him?

You know what happens, they pass tax cuts for the rich, and since they unpopular they are not OBAMAS TAX CUTS. You don't win over people from the GOP by agreeing with them, you make your case and fight back.


Clinton never ever managed to get healthcare reforms through, and for what Obama got through it is obviously a massive step towards further coverage of American citizens. And for what he has got through, it seems very likely the Republicans will kill it off. No-one can blame Obama for that.


He passed a universal mandate and basically a corporate handout to health care companies, thats not universal healthcare, its corporate subsidies.

Yes we can blame obama for that, he's the president.

BTW, OBAMA KILLED THE PUBLIC OPTION, NOT THE REPUBLICANS.


It's far easier to criticise Obama then the Republicans or Fox News.

Sure, but progressives don't blindly support republicans, they do Obama.

[#FF0000]

talking about American politics, but you can sit and wait for your glorious mass revolt.

yeah how silly to promote paths to socialism that would actually work instead of dropping ballots and waiting for things to turn just barely center-left.

but yeah you go and smash the state by voting green I guess.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

It's a pipe dream, that progressives who haven't dumped the democrats already will do so in the election. Yes, there is quite a bit of anger, but historically members of either party are to scared to jump ship for fear of the other side it seems (at least on the liberal side, where "not losing" is the guiding ideology, as opposed to the true believers on the right).

Obama is able to do things like say he wants to cut some entitlement programs, when the fucking opposition wants to cut fucking everything.

I agree though, it's all kind of fucked up. We went from a debate about expand govt v shrink govt to a debate entailing shrink govt v hand everything that is publicly owned over to a corporation asap.

[Drosophila]

Obama needs to be challenged by a progressive dem in the primary. And the American people need to stop being such lazy assholes.

[#FF0000]

Obama needs to be challenged by a progressive dem in the primary. And the American people need to stop being such lazy assholes.

>>Calls Americans lazy assholes
>>Because they don't vote

[Bardo]

yeah how silly to promote paths to socialism that would actually work instead of dropping ballots and waiting for things to turn just barely center-left.

but yeah you go and smash the state by voting green I guess.

So having a Green Party president wouldn't be any better whatsoever than having a Republican in the White House? Voting takes about 5 minutes. If you're doing nothing already you can do nothing AND vote. If you're involved in revolutionary movements, you can be involved in revolutionary movements AND vote. Even if voting makes no difference at all, doing it doesn't hurt anything either. Uninformed morons are going to continue to vote for the candidate with the best marketing team, why shouldn't informed citizens be counted as well?

If every leftist in America who thinks voting is a waste of time would vote there would be much greater opposition to the two major parties.

[#FF0000]

So having a Green Party president wouldn't be any better whatsoever than having a Republican in the White House?

We would be literally no closer to overthrowing capitalism, so no.

y'all need to get back to the Daily Kos or wherever you guys are coming from.


Even if voting makes no difference at all, doing it doesn't hurt anything either.

Actually I think it does hurt. First of all, you're telling people to put their energies into campaigning for or convincing people to vote for whatever horrible party you guys think we should vote for because they're "less bad" than the Republicans.

OR you are talking about having your party spend a lot of resources that it probably doesn't have to run an election campaign that will probably fail and at best will just get some more paper members and at worst demoralize a ton of people because you are doing nothing but losing elections every year.


Uninformed morons are going to continue to vote for the candidate with the best marketing team, why shouldn't informed citizens be counted as well?

What, exactly, do you expect to gain from voting? Will it achieve socialism? No? You'll get reforms you say? Well that's great, but you've squandered an opportunity to introduce the Communist viewpoint, radicalize people, and a chance to get some kind of experience in organizing. Great work.


If every leftist in America who thinks voting is a waste of time would vote there would be much greater opposition to the two major parties.

And we'd be no closer to overthrowing capitalism.

[Drosophila]

>>Calls Americans lazy assholes
>>Because they don't vote


As Bardo said, voting takes a grand total of 5-10 minutes. In the last midterm election, only 21% of the eligible population voted. Voting is surely the easiest, most painless way of reforming the system. Why don't anarchists, communists, and whoever else calls them self a "revolutionary" leftist organize and all go out and vote for a leftist party? Why is that off the table? If you people actually voted, you could actually change things.

Get involved with your local Party for Socialism and Liberation or whatever. If there isn't one, then FORM ONE. Getting your hands dirty is the only way to get things done. And it DOES make a difference.

Seriously, I thought you reflefters were revolutionary, yet you don't even organize.

[Gorilla]

You know what the Green parties are like in Europe? Just look at the Irish ones, recently out on their asses from coalition with Fianna Fail. And then there are the Germans, helped Gerhard Schroeder break the unions and firebomb Serb civilians.

I would rather vote Democratic than vote Green. If I have to vote for a terrible bourgeois candidate let it at least be one with working class support. If I am going to vote third party it will be for SP-USA or SWP or Working Families Party or whatever socialist or union-affiliated party is on my ballot.

[#FF0000]

Seriously, I thought you reflefters were revolutionary, yet you don't even organize.

This. Is. Why. We. Shouldn't. Waste. Time. Voting.

I think this is the difference between you guys and the rest of us. You hold communism/socialism/anarchism as some lofty, and unreachable ideal to strive towards. Meanwhile the rest of us are looking at it as an actual goal to be achieved. We're not concerned in just making things better for the short term. We're concerned with having a working class movement, and not just a voting bloc.


Voting is surely the easiest, most painless way of reforming the system.

We don't want to reform it.

[Summerspeaker]

As Howard Zinn wrote, there's nothing wrong with taking the time to vote. However, we prefer to spend our energies on community and workplace organization as well as direct action.

[Bardo]

We would be literally no closer to overthrowing capitalism, so no.

So what? Is a social democrat just as likely to cancel or cut programs designed to help the working class as a libertarian republican? The point isn't to overthrow capitalism at he ballot box, it's to elect more competant officials. We DO have a choice of who gets elected.




Actually I think it does hurt. First of all, you're telling people to put their energies into campaigning for or convincing people to vote for whatever horrible party you guys think we should vote for because they're "less bad" than the Republicans.


The social democrats are "less bad" than the Republicans. They're "less bad" than the Democrats.

What 'energies"? You mean the energy we spend physically fighting the capitalist establishment on the battlefeild everyday? What do YOU personally do to help anything besides trying to convince people to remain silent at the polls?




OR you are talking about having your party spend a lot of resources that it probably doesn't have to run an election campaign that will probably fail and at best will just get some more paper members and at worst demoralize a ton of people because you are doing nothing but losing elections every year.


OR we could sit around talking about revolution on the internet all day. The vast majority of Americans aren't interested in socialist revolution. If you can arrange one however, I'll be there with you.





And we'd be no closer to overthrowing capitalism.

You're no closer to overthrowing capitalism sitting in front of your computer either.

[#FF0000]

So what? Is a social democrat just as likely to cancel or cut programs designed to help the working class as a libertarian republican? The point isn't to overthrow capitalism at he ballot box, it's to elect more competant officials. We DO have a choice of who gets elected.

Elect more competent officials for what? Reforms? Why? You'll get reforms, no doubt, but you lose out on an opportunity to start out on building a movement, developing some kind of socialist consciousness. All you've done is encouraged a bunch of people that the ballot box can solve our problems, and not the total overthrow of capitalism.


What 'energies"? You mean the energy we spend physically fighting the capitalist establishment on the battlefeild everyday? What do YOU personally do to help anything besides trying to convince people to remain silent at the polls? From where I am? There's very little I can do. I've tried and failed to organize things quite a few times. Now I'm trying to get something done with the local SPUSA and some other groups, trying to get something organized over my states horrendous funding cuts to education and some other things.


OR we could sit around talking about revolution on the internet all day.None of us are advocating for that. This isn't an argument. It's an unfounded attack.


The vast majority of Americans aren't interested in socialist revolution. If you can arrange one however, I'll be there with you. And telling them to vote democrat or green isn't going to fix that, guy. You don't wait for this to happen, you have to help build it yourself, and with the state the working class is in, and with the forces of capital having more than 200 years to entrench itself, you can't expect it to be easy, and you can't expect there to be any kind of glory involved. We're literally starting from the fucking bottom here, and instead of voting, you should be actually getting involved in some actual fucking work.

I mean, vote if you want, on your own time. It's a good way to shut people up who use it against you, but to say "we should all vote" is beyond unhelpful.

[#FF0000]

I mean at the very fucking least, start your own failure of a group to soak up less than no votes instead of voting for some social democrats.

goddamn

[Dumb]

It's a pipe dream, that progressives who haven't dumped the democrats already will do so in the election.

That's because so many progressive voters have already jumped ship. Small picture: look at how weak Democratic turnout was last November. Big picture: look at how much voter turnout has declined in the past several decades, and look how disaffected working-class voters (especially impoverished voters) have become. The progressives left with the Democrats are those who are pretty much going to stay Democratic no matter what; so many progressive voters have already left the party that one could easily form a new base out of those ship-jumpers.

[Bardo]

Elect more competent officials for what? Reforms? Why? You'll get reforms, no doubt, but you lose out on an opportunity to start out on building a movement, developing some kind of socialist consciousness. All you've done is encouraged a bunch of people that the ballot box can solve our problems, and not the total overthrow of capitalism.

We've established that voting isn't going to overthrow capitalism, it's not what I'm getting at. If people are going to vote Democrat because they're a lesser evil than the Republicans, wouldn't it make sense to vote Green because they're a lesser evil than the Democrats?


trying to get something organized over my states horrendous funding cuts to education and some other things.

Did they elect a Republican? :tt2:



None of us are advocating for that. This isn't an argument. It's an unfounded attack.


My point being, the very fucking least you can do is vote. I'm not making personal attacks, I'm pointing out that in the time we spend browsing reftleft everyday we could vote every couple of years.


And telling them to vote democrat or green isn't going to fix that, guy.

Your everyday American is more likely to vote social democrat than be convinced to fight a revolution. Hell, why not take the reforms in the meantime? Reforms aren't an alternative to revolution, until there's a revolution take the reforms.



We're literally starting from the fucking bottom here, and instead of voting, you should be actually getting involved in some actual fucking work.

Again, voting doesn't render you incapable of doing real work. You can still organize before and after you vote.


I mean, vote if you want, on your own time. It's a good way to shut people up who use it against you, but to say "we should all vote" is beyond unhelpful.


I don't understand what's so unhelpful about voicing your opinion at the polls. Is not voting helpful?

[Gorilla]

This would be a more realistic debate if the Green Party actually had a better chance of winning than an open communist. But no. 0% = 0%. Neither one is going to win anyway, so you may as well not cross the class line by voting for an anti-communist, anti-union white petty bourgeois dope from the green party. May as well just write in Josef Stalin on your ballot for all the good voting Green will do you - and you'd have better conscience at night.

[#FF0000]

Your everyday American is more likely to vote social democrat than be convinced to fight a revolution. Hell, why not take the reforms in the meantime? Reforms aren't an alternative to revolution, until there's a revolution take the reforms. you are missing the point. the reforms in themselves are not important and are not our aims. We should be more interested in how the struggle for these reforms are carried out, not with the reforms themselves.


Did they elect a Republican? :tt2:do you remember back when there was a democrat supermajority immediately preceding this and literally nothing was different?

not to mention there'd be austerity either way.


My point being, the very fucking least you can do is vote. I'm not making personal attacks, I'm pointing out that in the time we spend browsing reftleft everyday we could vote every couple of years. does voting for social democrats do anything for the working class movement at all? in the slightest bit?


I don't understand what's so unhelpful about voicing your opinion at the polls. Is not voting helpful?

yes. it is entirely useless and a waste of time.

[Summerspeaker]

I wouldn't completely negate the difference between the two parties in the United States, particularly given the current agitation to restrict reproductive rights. Such polices do matter. But I also question whether voting really accomplishes more than posting on this site. Under the best circumstances, you get to be yet another cog in the machine propelling the desired candidate forward. It's a distant and dehumanizing process.

[Bardo]

you are missing the point. the reforms in themselves are not important and are not our aims. We should be more interested in how the struggle for these reforms are carried out, not with the reforms themselves.

So it's unimportant that bargaining rights are being revoked, social security is in jeapordy, medical coverage for working class families is being slashed, Pell grants and student aid is being minimized, healthcare remains privatized ect? These are things that can be addressed within the system.



do you remember back when there was a democrat supermajority immediately preceding this and literally nothing was different?

Thats because it was a democrat super majority. I'm not advocating that everyone vote Democrat.




does voting for social democrats do anything for the working class movement at all? in the slightest bit?


Would social democrats help usher in a socialist economy? No. Would a large presence within the system help working class families? I think so.

[#FF0000]

So it's unimportant that bargaining rights are being revoked, social security is in jeapordy, medical coverage for working class families is being slashed, Pell grants and student aid is being minimized, healthcare remains privatized ect? These are things that can be addressed within the system.

These are also things that can be capitalized on and used to get some kind of movement. Instead of doing this, though, you're telling us to vote.


Would social democrats help usher in a socialist economy? No. Would a large presence within the system help working class families? I think so.

We're concerned with the former, though. Helping working class families is great but we're not here trying to achieve capitalism with a happy face.

[Property Is Robbery]

If you were going to vote I don't see why you wouldn't vote Peace and Freedom (in CA) and SP elsewhere. Why green? I mean maybe if McKiney was running. PSL decided to particpate in bourgeoisie elections to garner attention, so vote for them.

[CynicalIdealist]

"Progressives need to leave Obama"

No shit sherlock.

[Bardo]

These are also things that can be capitalized on and used to get some kind of movement. Instead of doing this, though, you're telling us to vote.

We're concerned with the former, though. Helping working class families is great but we're not here trying to achieve capitalism with a happy face.

When I see a problem, I want to fix it. I don't want to prolong the problem so that I can exploit it in the hopes that someday, in the distant future, our lives will be so unbearably bad that maybe we'll get a few more revolutionaries. I don't believe this is in the interest of the common good.

I'm not a social democrat, nor do I believe that social democracy is a good enough solution or an alternative to socialism, but it IS an alternative to the centre-right parties that soak up all the votes.

[Bardo]

If you were going to vote I don't see why you wouldn't vote Peace and Freedom (in CA) and SP elsewhere. Why green? I mean maybe if McKiney was running. PSL decided to particpate in bourgeoisie elections to garner attention, so vote for them.

I would vote for PSL and other socialist parties. The Greens just have a larger base and would be more likely to catch on. I don't see many Democrats voting PSL, but it's not a stretch of the imagination to see them vote Green. If more radical socialist parties were more organized I would gladly vote for them.

[#FF0000]

When I see a problem, I want to fix it. I don't want to prolong the problem so that I can exploit it in the hopes that someday, in the distant future, our lives will be so unbearably bad that maybe we'll get a few more revolutionaries. I don't believe this is in the interest of the common good.

This is not what I am suggesting.

[Bardo]

This is not what I am suggesting.

Then what are you suggesting? You say improved conditions for the working class would be harmful to the movement, and that it would be more useful to not improve anything in order to capitalize (exploit) on these poor conditions to raise more support for the movement. Right?

[zimmerwald1915]

There's nothing wrong with voting. There's something wrong with conducting electoral campaigns, telling people to vote, how, and that doing so will bring the liberation of the working class and humanity one iota closer.

[#FF0000]

Then what are you suggesting? You say improved conditions for the working class would be harmful to the movement

No. Reforms are fine.


and that it would be more useful to not improve anything in order to capitalize (exploit) on these poor conditions to raise more support for the movement. Right?

No. I'm saying that we should really focus on how to achieve these reforms, rather than on the reforms themselves.

[MattShizzle]

I plan on voting for him the same reason I always swallow down and vote Democrat. I'd rather have a capitalist with some progressive values than a fascist. Democrats are almost all capitalists but have some progressive values, but Republicans are either borderline or out and out fascists. And either a Democrat or Republican is going to win until there is finally a revolution.