Don't wanna be white

[strike]

Excuse errors or rants, I am drunk. Gonna try to keep this short.

I don't want to be white. I didn't ask to be white, or male for that matter. But I am and I dislike it. I have been born into the gender/race formulae that runs the world. What does it mean for a white mail to have solidarity with african-american men, or african-american women, or any other combination of gender and race? I will never truly understand a woman's struggle, nor someone of color's struggle. I will never truly understand through experience what it is like to try to exist in this world as such, and if that is the case, what room do I have to talk about it? to be an "ally" to me just seems so hollow. What do I do?

I have been told I have white-guilt before and fuck it, I believe I do. My ancestry is German/English. I;m as white as white-bread and I look on al th atrocities committed and still ebing committed by rich white men, and realize I am only one slot away from fulfilling the stereotype completely. If my family had been bourgeoisie, I might have been a completely different person, investing in stocks and laughing all the way to the bank.

What I'm getting at is, does it mean anything when I ssay I have solidarity for everyone who is oppressed by the state and capital? Or is it just viewed as bullshit that people always say? And furthermore, what do I do to contribute to the struggles of these oppressed people? and above all, does anyone actively participating in these struggles care if another white male jumps into the fray?


In utter solidarity with you all.

[Kamos]

Of course it does mean something, if what you said here is all true. In fact, just realising how difficult it is for some people is more than many right-wing fuckwits will ever manage.

[SJBarley]

hey man, from what you've said your in a great position, with the white males being so powerful in todays right wing society you have some influence to aid that change, i too am a white male and the more of us who realise how discusting our kinsmen have been the quicker we can have an impact and change the world for the better

[Dr Mindbender]

Excuse errors or rants, I am drunk. Gonna try to keep this short.

I don't want to be white. I didn't ask to be white, or male for that matter. But I am and I dislike it. I have been born into the gender/race formulae that runs the world. What does it mean for a white mail to have solidarity with african-american men, or african-american women, or any other combination of gender and race? I will never truly understand a woman's struggle, nor someone of color's struggle. I will never truly understand through experience what it is like to try to exist in this world as such, and if that is the case, what room do I have to talk about it? to be an "ally" to me just seems so hollow. What do I do?

I have been told I have white-guilt before and fuck it, I believe I do. My ancestry is German/English. I;m as white as white-bread and I look on al th atrocities committed and still ebing committed by rich white men, and realize I am only one slot away from fulfilling the stereotype completely. If my family had been bourgeoisie, I might have been a completely different person, investing in stocks and laughing all the way to the bank.

What I'm getting at is, does it mean anything when I ssay I have solidarity for everyone who is oppressed by the state and capital? Or is it just viewed as bullshit that people always say? And furthermore, what do I do to contribute to the struggles of these oppressed people? and above all, does anyone actively participating in these struggles care if another white male jumps into the fray?


In utter solidarity with you all.

Oh poor you. Then heres me worrying about silly things like how i'm going to pay next months rent.

[GPDP]

Oh poor you. Then heres me worrying about silly things like how i'm going to pay next months rent.

This is akin to saying "shut up whitey, you don't have any real problems, look at mine."

No need to take out your frustrations, legitimate as they may be, on someone else seeking help on a way to relate to those less fortunate than he is.

[progressive_lefty]

I think it's definetly hard being a white male, especially when there is so much of the mentality that white people are superior - because of their white skin, blue eyes, blond hair, innovation, ideas... I've met white people from southern Brazil, South Africa and even Europe that have this kind of mentality. I find it really really depressing, and I think it puts limits on how open minded white people can live in this world, because there are obviously other non-white groups that are reasonably sick of this sort of 'white superiority' belief. I just think it's so pathetic to have some sort of mentality that whites are superior, and I believe the people that believe this even go beyond the racist-right and may even include some 'white liberals/lefties'.
It makes me think, since there are soo few open minded/reasonable/grounded white people, then maybe its important for me to have white children so they can be brought up into a thinking which doesn't believe that anyone is superior. Otherwise, I think the whites that will be left will be more arrogant and viscous then the current crop.

[Dr Mindbender]

This is akin to saying "shut up whitey, you don't have any real problems, look at mine."
I am also white. Whites arent collectively responsible for every ill deed orchestrated against non-whites. You cant change your race and I dont see what drunkenly posting about white guilt is supposed to acheive.

Whats more i may be wrong but i think non-whites dislike being referred to as 'people of color'.



No need to take out your frustrations, legitimate as they may be, on someone else seeking help on a way to relate to those less fortunate than he is.
You relate to others through class awareness not racial awareness. By conforming to race awareness you submit to the divide and conquer agenda of the bosses.

[Sword and Shield]

I am also white. I dont see what drunkenly posting about white guilt is supposed to acheive.

You relate to others through class awareness not racial awareness. By conforming to race awareness you submit to the divide and conquer agenda of the bosses.

That's great to say. While you reap the benefits of racism.

Kudos to strike for taking a principled stand and wanting to get rid of racism. And fuck you Dr Mindbender for thinking that racism shouldn't be addressed directly.

[Ocean Seal]

Excuse errors or rants, I am drunk. Gonna try to keep this short.

I don't want to be white. I didn't ask to be white, or male for that matter. But I am and I dislike it. I have been born into the gender/race formulae that runs the world. What does it mean for a white mail to have solidarity with african-american men, or african-american women, or any other combination of gender and race? I will never truly understand a woman's struggle, nor someone of color's struggle. I will never truly understand through experience what it is like to try to exist in this world as such, and if that is the case, what room do I have to talk about it? to be an "ally" to me just seems so hollow. What do I do?

I have been told I have white-guilt before and fuck it, I believe I do. My ancestry is German/English. I;m as white as white-bread and I look on al th atrocities committed and still ebing committed by rich white men, and realize I am only one slot away from fulfilling the stereotype completely. If my family had been bourgeoisie, I might have been a completely different person, investing in stocks and laughing all the way to the bank.

What I'm getting at is, does it mean anything when I ssay I have solidarity for everyone who is oppressed by the state and capital? Or is it just viewed as bullshit that people always say? And furthermore, what do I do to contribute to the struggles of these oppressed people? and above all, does anyone actively participating in these struggles care if another white male jumps into the fray?


In utter solidarity with you all.

You stand in solidarity as a worker. That is what you do. You are a worker first and foremost and you stand in the most important struggle facing man today the struggle against the power of capital. When capital falls the institution which upheld racism and sexism is now gone.

And I'll further make this point YOU ARE NOT TRULY WHITE, in the same sense that I am not truly Hispanic, and no one is truly of any race. Your race is human. And you are in utter solidarity with the cause of humanity, which is the cause of labor against capital.

Workers of the world unite.

[Chris]

The world isn't entirely controlled by rich white men. There's also rich white women, rich black men, rich black women, rich asian men, rich asian women, rich hispanic men, rich hispanic women...

Really does, say, Obama have some kind of claim to having suffered more to a poor white working class man? Or Oprah? Ethnicity shouldn't play a part in that. The deepest poverty in the US is overwhelmingly among the ethnic minorities, yes. It stills means we should alleviate the poor, not all blacks (including middle class and wealthy blacks).

[lines]

There is no black and white, we are one race the human race. You are not white you are human.

[Dr Mindbender]

That's great to say. While you reap the benefits of racism.

For your information, i'm sitting on a dreary monocultural rock in the east atlantic called Ireland inhabited almost entirely by red headed albinos so i must be doing this 'reaping' from a fair old distance.

While i cant claim to be black, hispanic or asian i did experience anti irish racism while i'll lived in England so i cordially invite you to spin on my index finger.



Kudos to strike for taking a principled stand and wanting to get rid of racism. And fuck you Dr Mindbender for thinking that racism shouldn't be addressed directly.
How is drunkenly posting on a left wing internet forum challenging racism directly?

Fuck me get a reality check.

[Pretty Flaco]

Complaining about being white is stupid. Complaining about being any type of ethnicity is stupid.

[lines]

I see a danger in some tendencies that have originated in the American left. American leftists tend to put almost exclusive emphasis on race and gender and as a result they often alienate the white working class. The reason there have been barely any, if any, successful working class leftist movements in America is because the white working class doesn't feel like getting defecated on constantly. It is important to criticize the racism and imperialism but it is also important to not make white people feel ashamed of being white.

[Queercommie Girl]

Non-whites do make up a very significant section of the working class in the US today though, as do women.

I don't think it's correct to implicitly assume that the "white heterosexual male" worker is the "typical image" of a worker in the US. That itself is a kind of implicit white privilege, and also conversely, white male workers wouldn't be under so much pressure and shame if they don't assume they are "in the lead" all the time. Like if men simply let women take charge on more things, then there will be less pressure for men. I think some of the pressure on white males is the result of a kind of implicit internalised automatic feeling of "white man's burden". Just because in recent centuries European whites have been more involved in reactionary imperialism than other races and ethnicities doesn't imply there is some kind of "innate duty" for contemporary whites to make a special effort to correct this, like a few posters in this thread seem to suggest. Just let other peoples take the lead more, why don't you?

And of course even among "whites" there are still different sub-sections, and some groups are still less privileged and more oppressed than others.

And also certain non-white minorities may have more affinity with some white groups or sub-sections of white society on certain things than they do with other non-white groups. So I don't think it's objectively correct to simplistically label the racial and ethnic dynamics in the US today as simply one of "white vs. coloured"...

I don't think "identity politics" is really useful in itself except simply as a tool of fighting against discrimination. Hypothetically if there were no discrimination, there would be no need for "identity politics".

[lines]

All I'm saying is that the American left is a failure and that the ideas produced among leftists in America are too influential in the global leftist scheme of things. Why should failures have that much influence?

America did elect Obama but electing a black man isn't leftist if the black man elected is right wing. Obama has mainly served corporate and imperialist interests throughout the presidency.

Criticising racism is important, criticising imperialism is important. Making white people ashamed to be white is racism. If a white person hates themselves for being white that is racism and is as bad as if a black person is made ashamed for being black.

[tachosomoza]

When the revolution comes, the battle lines will be drawn along class lines, not racial lines. Race is a petty social construct developed by the fascists and other oppressors to divide the proletariat and facilitate their goal of keeping them unaware of who the true enemies are. I myself am an "African-American", and have come under pressure from the community because I haven't aligned myself with organizations that advocate black nationalism or the like, because to do so would be to undermine my goal of the establishment of a classless, egalitarian society. A worker is a worker is a worker. Always.

Stay strong, comrade. Don't hate yourself because of something you have no control over.

[Queercommie Girl]

All I'm saying is that the American left is a failure and that the ideas produced among leftists in America are too influential in the global leftist scheme of things. Why should failures have that much influence?


Sorry, but I don't agree with that. Why is it a failure? If you say it's simply because capitalism still hasn't been overthrown in the US then well it hasn't been overthrown in any country yet really.

Recently we've actually seen some good examples of solid working class movements in the US.

Why is the influence of the American left in the world a bad thing at all? The American left is still quite inspirational on certain issues, such as on the issue of queer liberation. The American left is certainly ahead of the Chinese left on LGBT politics.



America did elect Obama but electing a black man isn't leftist if the black man elected is right wing. Obama has mainly served corporate and imperialist interests throughout the presidency.


I don't disagree but no-one is saying electing Obama is really leftist here.



Criticising racism is important, criticising imperialism is important. Making white people ashamed to be white is racism. If a white person hates themselves for being white that is racism and is as bad as if a black person is made ashamed for being black.


Well, certainly Marxist versions of anti-racism and anti-imperialism do not produce "white self-hatred", since Marxism blames these ultimately on the institutions of capitalism, imperialism and class society, rather than on any race intrinsically.

[Pretty Flaco]

Non-whites do make up a very significant section of the working class in the US today though, as do women.

I don't think it's correct to implicitly assume that the "white heterosexual male" worker is the "typical image" of a worker in the US. That itself is a kind of implicit white privilege, and also conversely, white male workers wouldn't be under so much pressure and shame if they don't assume they are "in the lead" all the time. Like if men simply let women take charge on more things, then there will be less pressure for men. I think some of the pressure on white males is the result of a kind of implicit internalised automatic feeling of "white man's burden". Just because in recent centuries European whites have been more involved in reactionary imperialism than other races and ethnicities doesn't imply there is some kind of "innate duty" for contemporary whites to make a special effort to correct this, like a few posters in this thread seem to suggest. Just let other peoples take the lead more, why don't you?

And of course even among "whites" there are still different sub-sections, and some groups are still less privileged and more oppressed than others.

And also certain non-white minorities may have more affinity with some white groups or sub-sections of white society on certain things than they do with other non-white groups. So I don't think it's objectively correct to simplistically label the racial and ethnic dynamics in the US today as simply one of "white vs. coloured"...

I don't think "identity politics" is really useful in itself except simply as a tool of fighting against discrimination. Hypothetically if there were no discrimination, there would be no need for "identity politics".


The large majority of the US working class is white. That's just simply because most people in the US are white.
However, minorities make up a disproportionate amount of the working class.

[Manic Impressive]

What I'm getting at is, does it mean anything when I ssay I have solidarity for everyone who is oppressed by the state and capital? Or is it just viewed as bullshit that people always say? And furthermore, what do I do to contribute to the struggles of these oppressed people? and above all, does anyone actively participating in these struggles care if another white male jumps into the fray?


In utter solidarity with you all.
So I was reading this (http://www.peopleofcolororganize.com/opinion/10-conversations-racism-im-sick-having-white-people/) blog the other day and thought this might be of some help to you.


The following are good-faith discussions I love having with white people. Conversations I have with my friends and readers and one of the many reasons why they’re the most awesome people on the planet.
1) Hey Neo, do you have any recommendations for resources. I’m really wanting to broaden my horizons but I want to make sure I get the right information.
2) I’m trying to contend with a relative/boss/co-worker who is quite a bigot because I don’t think it’s right for me to stay silent and do nothing. How should I proceed Neo?
3) We’re tired of POCs doing the heavy lifting in battling racism and we realize that erasing racism is just as much our responsibility (if not moreso) as it is POCs. We’re looking to launch a few protests and campaigns. How do you think we should proceed?
4) I’m trying to expose my child to other exceptional minority media which showcases and celebrates POCs in a positive light. Do you have any suggestions?
5) Hey Neo, I’m writing a story where the primary protagonist is a POC but I want to handle the character with respect and I realize that I don’t have the insight of being a POC because well….I’m white. You’re an excellent writer and a very intelligent guy. Could you have a gander and let me know what you think about the characterization and the story in general?
Here’s to less of the former and more of the latter. K? Thanks.
- Neo-Prodigy

I don't really agree with the tactics used by many in trying to educate white people about white privilege. A lot of it is finger pointing and a release of anger which is understandable but not always very productive, in fact it can be quite negative often criticizing someone can either cause them not to listen especially the white working class who have their own oppression or make people like you feel guilty for having a certain set of genes. In my opinion a much better way to convince people that white privilege is needs to be dissolved is to show them that it is not in their interests. Like patriarchy it has negative effects for everyone obviously not equally harmful but harmful enough for it not to be in our best interests to maintain it. Because that's what people generally do they act in their own best interests, I think a lot of black people don't see how destroying white privilege can be in the best interests of white people. But if like me you see that every historical progression in human society has come through co-operation and to end the oppression which the white working class suffer is through unity and equality it is very much in the majority of white peoples interests to get rid of it. There are other factors as well for instance learning about other cultures and people greatly extends your understanding of humanity and the world I kind of feel sorry for the bigots who'll never experience all that you can learn from being around different cultures. White privilege really only serves one group the bourgeoisie.

[Jose Gracchus]

Race does matter, even if one wants to formally clade it in with the class system and its history. Any colonial zone the world over [and that includes the U.S. South in particular, but also the West, and formally, all of it] around one will see this is the case. Class systems and racial systems reinforce each other. The Northern bourgeoisie had an interest in destroying black slavery in the Civil War, but after Reconstruction was content to leave the black nationality in the U.S. as the menial wage labor, or sharecropping exploited class, rather than raising any significant portion of it, up to say the average level of the Irish immigrant and descendents in the industrial division of labor. Endemic racism in the white public reinforces this tendency and reproduces it, and you can't go anywhere in the U.S. South and not see this. That said, I don't believe in black nationalism as a political program viable today outside of an explicitly multi-racial class based movement based on solidarity. I don't think capitalism can be made to play a progressive role with regard to race relations, or much else, here, anymore.

[GPDP]

I am also white. Whites arent collectively responsible for every ill deed orchestrated against non-whites. You cant change your race and I dont see what drunkenly posting about white guilt is supposed to acheive.

Whats more i may be wrong but i think non-whites dislike being referred to as 'people of color'.


You relate to others through class awareness not racial awareness. By conforming to race awareness you submit to the divide and conquer agenda of the bosses.

What I objected to was you lashing out at the OP not because he wasn't looking at class, but because you seemingly construed his post as the drunken rants of a privileged white guy with no real problems compared to your own (though admittedly he was indeed drunk).

Calmly and rationally explaining to him why it is class that unites us and why race must be transcended as the social construct it is would have been a much better approach than denigrating his feelings of racial anxiety. Your response was not that of one trying to educate on the matter, but angrily trying to put someone else down to make yourself feel better about your own shitty situation.

Such responses do nothing but lower the level of debate here on Revleft, and lord knows it's low enough as it is.

[PhoenixAsh]

I am not quite sure if you are serious or are trolling...or whatever...so I am going to assume that you are not.



I don't want to be white. I didn't ask to be white, or male for that matter. But I am and I dislike it. I have been born into the gender/race formulae that runs the world.

Is this a persistant psychological problem for you?

It helps to realise that the truth of the matter is that race and gender are a social construct....and the reality of it all is we are all human beings. Which means it does not exist outside of the fact that "we" say it does based on the need to classify and attribute traits both positive and negative over groups of people in order to establish dominance and hierarchy. There is no basis in science for it.



What does it mean for a white mail to have solidarity with african-american men, or african-american women, or any other combination of gender and race?

Well... good news...it means you are conscious of others and their situation. Its positive and it reflects positively on you.



I will never truly understand a woman's struggle, nor someone of color's struggle. I will never truly understand through experience what it is like to try to exist in this world as such,

no...you won't



and if that is the case, what room do I have to talk about it?

several reaons...but most importantly...dialogue increases understanding. And since both men and women and all people need to live together dialogue also helps others understand you better.



to be an "ally" to me just seems so hollow. What do I do?

well...there are two choices...imo

either you sympathise and enter into dialogue and basically decide to solve the problems of unequality.

or...you do not.



I have been told I have white-guilt before and fuck it, I believe I do. My ancestry is German/English. I;m as white as white-bread and I look on al th atrocities committed and still ebing committed by rich white men, and realize I am only one slot away from fulfilling the stereotype completely.

well...I think "white guilt" is unproductive. You are not personally responsible for what happened in the past, you are not personally responsible for the actions of others ...leats of all for the actions of rich white men....and women for that matter.

You are responsible for your own actions and as such thats actually pretty good news...because you can do something about that directly starting...well...now....and break out of the stereotypes you feel you conform with.

How others judge you...is up to them.



If my family had been bourgeoisie, I might have been a completely different person, investing in stocks and laughing all the way to the bank.

But...taking from this statement...you are not. Now...if you had been an elephant your life would probably consist of things elephants do...but you are not an elephant...this may seem ridiculous...but the point is that you are what you are and not what you are not.

Its good you realise that you could have been so much worse than you feel you are...now strife to be something better than you feel you are...and everything will turn out fine.


What I'm getting at is, does it mean anything when I ssay I have solidarity for everyone who is oppressed by the state and capital?

Yes...it really means a lot.



Or is it just viewed as bullshit that people always say?

No...its not. It only becomes bullshit if all you do is say it and then continue as before.



And furthermore, what do I do to contribute to the struggles of these oppressed people?

well..you already did something...which is realising their situation. This is the first step. Another good step is to realise that you are actually oppressed as well. which makes you aware and conscious. And another step is joining a group, such as this site, which can show you alternatives and possibilities for making further changes and show you how these mechanisms of opression work.

what you decide to do with that information is up to you.



and above all, does anyone actively participating in these struggles care if another white male jumps into the fray?

Well...a lot who are currently involved are white and a lot are male. We really need everybody. So we care.



In utter solidarity with you all.

Ok. Thats good

[Summerspeaker]

You're only white for as long as that category exists. You can't destroy the club of privilege simply by mentally deconstructing it and refusing to refusing to perform whiteness - not alone, anyways - but doing so remains worthwhile. Recognition by others based on appearance only forms one aspect of being white. As the new abolitionists say, treason to whiteness is loyalty to humanity (http://racetraitor.org/abolishthepoint.html). The same goes for your dude status (http://books.google.com/books?id=d_c22IYLKq0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=refusing+to+be+a+man&source=bl&ots=1I6g-Nepht&sig=yRDUUuO14wqoMRz5A_gLrqVLO1g&hl=en&ei=x8O4TevvOMmutweg-ZjeBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CEIQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false).

[gorillafuck]

You can't destroy the club of privilege simply by mentally deconstructing it and refusing to refusing to perform whiteness"performing whiteness"?

[tachosomoza]

The direct action antifascist/antiracist street movement in the United States is mainly comprised of young white males. "People of color" are more represented in the groups that attempt to lobby the government. I attribute this to the fact that most PoC are secretly afraid to DIRECTLY confront those who have been vocal in their desire to wipe them off the face of the Earth. I've heard black ARA activists chided as insane and suicidal for confronting the enemy in the street. Also, I've noticed most of the antifa guys on the street come from the anarcho-punk scene, which has a noticeable dearth of "minority groups". When people of color begin to take the fight to the enemy themselves, and stop appealing in vain to the fascist government that has taken steps in the past to perpetuate the status quo, things will begin to happen.

[Summerspeaker]

I attribute this to the fact that most PoC are secretly afraid to DIRECTLY confront those who have been vocal in their desire to wipe them off the face of the Earth.

There's something to be said for confronting institutional white supremacy rather than fixating on marginal groups such as neo-Nazis. Without the proper propaganda, the latter can reinforce the popular narrative of racism as a personal problem rather than a systemic one.

[tachosomoza]

There's something to be said for confronting institutional white supremacy rather than fixating on marginal groups such as neo-Nazis. Without the proper propaganda, the latter can reinforce the popular narrative of racism as a personal problem rather than a systemic one.

I agree, but people of color still shouldn't allow marginalists to come into their cities and spread messages of hatred. The neo-nazis are having a field day with the fact that "the ARA is full of little white kids", to quote a now deleted Stormfront post.

[strike]

Thank you all.

[Lanky Wanker]

it's kinda fucked up how a lot of us feel guilty for what other people of our "type" have done over the years. I don't feel bad about it though because I know I'm not anything like those people. I think I'd be contradicting myself if I said we shouldn't judge people based on race, then go and feel guilty of being white. speaking of which; minor threat - guilty of being white << if you're into punk then this is a good song relating to this kind of thing:

I'm sorry
For something I didn't do
Lynched somebody
But I don't know who
You blame me for slavery
A hundred years before I was born

Guilty of being white

I'm a convict
Of a racist crime
I've only served
19 years of my time

Guilty of being white

[Anarchrusty]

Making white people ashamed to be white is racism. If a white person hates themselves for being white that is racism and is as bad as if a black person is made ashamed for being black.

It's not about shaming white people about being white, it's about raising awareness of the burden they carry from ages of slavery, torture, exploitation, imperialism.
As a white male, I realise the onus is on me. Sure, I personally haven't transported any slaves towards the Americas, but it is my race and genders that have profited enormously from the evils of my ancestors. I reap from it day after day. As do we all. Without that specific knowledge, you'll be stuck in the dark ages and unable to escape. Free your mind, bro.

[Queercommie Girl]

It's not about shaming white people about being white, it's about raising awareness of the burden they carry from ages of slavery, torture, exploitation, imperialism.
As a white male, I realise the onus is on me. Sure, I personally haven't transported any slaves towards the Americas, but it is my race and genders that have profited enormously from the evils of my ancestors. I reap from it day after day. As do we all. Without that specific knowledge, you'll be stuck in the dark ages and unable to escape. Free your mind, bro.


You are right, but of course just because you are white doesn't mean you have to carry around some kind of modern-day "white man's burden" and put pressure on yourself for the wrongdoings of some of your ancestors. There is no need for "white guilt".

[eyedrop]

It's not about shaming white people about being white, it's about raising awareness of the burden they carry from ages of slavery, torture, exploitation, imperialism.

My ancestors mainly enslaved white people, after that we where basically a third world country under the yoke of Denmark and Sweden and we didn't participate much in colonialism so who am I supposed to carry a burden for?

Do I have to carry a burden for what the white people in other continents and countries or is it divided by nationality? Or race?

I reckon you mean that I should carry a burden since I'm white, but ancestors doesn't work then.

Here I thought the whole point was to equalize the playing-field today, or maybe remove the divisions that are pushing us down.

[Anarchrusty]

I am not advocating white guilt, I am advocating white awareness. There is a HUGE difference.
See it this way: would you belittle a woman for asking men to reconsider the indulgent gender prejudices they have had for centuries in our neck of the woods? Would you not expect a man to overcome the extra's and benefits he gains from just being a man? Off course not.

I am both and I know I have on both accounts a lot of reconsilling to do.

I am also bisexual and I see it as my duty and my right to challenge heterosexual class hierarchies, ya know, the things that keep me down? Now, extrapolate these anologies to whites or males and you'll see exactly what I mean.

[Queercommie Girl]

I am also bisexual and I see it as my duty and my right to challenge heterosexual class hierarchies, ya know, the things that keep me down? Now, extrapolate these anologies to whites or males and you'll see exactly what I mean.


Actually your analogy here is objectively off: queers are objectively disadvantaged like women or non-white people, so whereas with respect to race and gender you are in a relatively privileged position objectively speaking, with respect to sexuality you are actually in a relatively disadvantaged position, so in this aspect you should actually be expecting heterosexuals to show more understanding and awareness to you, rather than expecting yourself to show more awareness to others, as is the case with race and gender.

[Anarchrusty]

Actually your analogy here is objectively off: queers are objectively disadvantaged like women or non-white people, so whereas with respect to race and gender you are in a relatively privileged position objectively speaking, with respect to sexuality you are actually in a relatively disadvantaged position, so in this aspect you should actually be expecting heterosexuals to show more understanding and awareness to you, rather than expecting yourself to show more awareness to others, as is the case with race and gender.


Wait what? But that is exactly what I said, so I have no idea why you feel the need not only to rephrase it, but to criticize me for saying it?

[Queercommie Girl]

Wait what? But that is exactly what I said, so I have no idea why you feel the need not only to rephrase it, but to criticize me for saying it?

Note that I'm not criticising you in any ideological sense, hence I said it was an objective comment.

It's merely a technical issue.

You seemed to be making a direct analogy between you being white/male and you being bisexual, which is not technically accurate since you are on the privileged side for being white/male but the disadvantaged side for being queer.

But I could have misread you.

[Os Cangaceiros]

we don't like your kind around here whitey

[greenwarbler]

paint yourself blue

[black magick hustla]

dont feel guilty leftists who guiltrip other people for their ethnicity and sex are scum, you gotta be mexican, transexual, and disabled to not get lectured by some good for nothing sociology student

[Queercommie Girl]

dont feel guilty leftists who guiltrip other people for their ethnicity and sex are scum, you gotta be mexican, transexual, and disabled to not get lectured by some good for nothing sociology student


I wouldn't explicitly mention categories of people for use in this context like this, nor would I dismiss an entire discipline of students just because you disagree with some of their ideological theories.

Actually we have a member here who is literally Mexican, trans-sexual and probably disabled to some extent too - Esperanza, and I'm sure she has been "lectured at" by some sociologists for various reasons too.

[black magick hustla]

I wouldn't explicitly mention categories of people for use in this context like this, nor would I dismiss an entire discipline of students just because you disagree with some of their ideological theories.



i agree i just like making fun of college student stereotypes

[Os Cangaceiros]

argh. I just wrote a reply and then lost it. Oh well.

Anyway, in all seriousness, it's really really dumb to be ashamed of the fact that your bloodline comes from a certain area on the globe or that your skin lacks melanin. No one should feel ashamed of something they have no control over. You didn't have anything to do with the injustices of the past.

And that's without even going into the fact that not all white people in the past were culpable in racism or exploitation or genocide, etc. My great-great grandfather (who I'm named after) was a crazy old fisherman and former whaler who was running around his tiny cabin shooting at weasels w/ a shotgun, at the age of 98. Needless to say he wasn't an occupant of the halls of power and wealth or anything.

[Queercommie Girl]

i agree i just like making fun of college student stereotypes

See my avatar. ;)

(It's a geeky/nerdy joke)

[Anarchrusty]

No problem Iseul. I was just getting at challenging the powerstructures one inhabits when being white or male, the direct consequences of both sexism and racism. I know I benefit from it every minute, even if that is not what I want. To break down these barriers and levelling the inequality of which the world was built, I have to attack the inherent devalueing of the oppressed.

Being active in the LGBT community however, I was shown the indirect subhumanising of queerbased oriented individuals, a very distinctive form of discrimination that takes on many faces of evil.
Being a victim of that myself, gives me the power to understand what lies beneath other forms as well.

[Summerspeaker]

"performing whiteness"?

Rush Limbaugh would be a particularly glaring example. See Colored White (http://books.google.com/books?id=gUv6QEgW0GoC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Colored+White:+Transcending+the+Racial+Past&hl=en&src=bmrr&ei=K4S7Tf2gNo_rgQfIgqzCBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false) by David Roediger.

[Robespierre Richard]

Hey OP I think it's pretty simple:

1. Hang out with Black/Latino people
2. Become familiar with their culture
3. ???
4. PROFIT?

[Agent Ducky]

Hey OP I think it's pretty simple:

1. Hang out with Black/Latino people
2. Become familiar with their culture
3. ???
4. PROFIT?

Wouldn't profiting be capitalist?

[Property Is Robbery]

This is what you keep reminding me of

l0tzZ__Z5Qw

[Die Rote Fahne]

This thread...is so dumb...

[Queercommie Girl]

argh. I just wrote a reply and then lost it. Oh well.

Anyway, in all seriousness, it's really really dumb to be ashamed of the fact that your bloodline comes from a certain area on the globe or that your skin lacks melanin. No one should feel ashamed of something they have no control over. You didn't have anything to do with the injustices of the past.

And that's without even going into the fact that not all white people in the past were culpable in racism or exploitation or genocide, etc. My great-great grandfather (who I'm named after) was a crazy old fisherman and former whaler who was running around his tiny cabin shooting at weasels w/ a shotgun, at the age of 98. Needless to say he wasn't an occupant of the halls of power and wealth or anything.

Another thing to note is that European whites probably killed as many other European whites as non-whites. Think about the Roman conquests, the Germanic and Viking raids, the religious wars of the Middle Ages, the peasant wars in Germany, the revolutionary wars in France, WWI, WWII...

So the idea of some kind of "white unity" or "European unity" is really ridiculous.

It's the same for Asians. Mongols may look the same as the Han Chinese generally speaking, (both being "Northern Mongolids" from an anthropological perspective) but historically they were a greater enemy to the Han than any European nation ever was. Indeed, both Han Chinese and Russians suffered under the oppression of the Mongol Empire.

Not that I agree with Han nationalism of course, but as one (anti-Mongol) Han nationalist puts it: "Compared with how many Han Chinese people the Asiatic nomads like the Mongols killed, the number of civilian deaths caused by recent European colonialism in China are just like a drop in an ocean." It's somewhat exaggerated, but objectively he has a point. Asians have killed more Asians than Europeans did. So there is no such thing as "Asian unity" either. As a Han Chinese, I'd rather ally with the white Russians against the "yellow peril" of the Mongol hordes, despite the fact that "Hans and Mongols look the same".

So there is no such thing as "whites as a whole" vs. "non-whites as a whole". Human history was far more complex than this kind of simplistic "racial division".

[Atehequa]

I am also white. Whites arent collectively responsible for every ill deed orchestrated against non-whites. You cant change your race and I dont see what drunkenly posting about white guilt is supposed to acheive.

Whats more i may be wrong but i think non-whites dislike being referred to as 'people of color'.


You relate to others through class awareness not racial awareness. By conforming to race awareness you submit to the divide and conquer agenda of the bosses.

Never attempt to color coordinate while drinking if so go with something neutral or maybe a soft Spring pastel.

[Tim Finnegan]

Another thing to note is that European whites probably killed as many other European whites as non-whites. Think about the Roman conquests, the Germanic and Viking raids, the religious wars of the Middle Ages, the peasant wars in Germany, the revolutionary wars in France, WWI, WWII...

So there is no such thing as "whites as a whole" vs. "non-whites as a whole". Human history was far more complex than this kind of simplistic "racial division".
The ever-insightful Tim Wise discusses this here, to great effect:

J3Xe1kX7Wsc

[tachosomoza]

The ever-insightful Tim Wise discusses this here, to great effect:

J3Xe1kX7Wsc

The bougies also did the same thing WITHIN the Afro-American community. They allowed light-skinned Americans of African descent to have certain privileges (voting, property ownership, attendance at "white churches" etc.) in the South, in exchange for convincing those that were darker that their position could be enhanced by working hard for the European/Mulatto plantation owners.

This was also present in Mexico. The Spanish pitched the lighter skinned mestizos against the darker mestizos, Africans, and Native tribes to ensure that the "purebred" Spaniards would always remain at the top of the class ladder.

In any colonial society, this phenomenon manifests itself. It is the only way that the colonizing power can stay on top and not have to worry about the proletariat rising up and toppling them.

[Tim Finnegan]

In any colonial society, this phenomenon manifests itself. It is the only way that the colonizing power can stay on top and not have to worry about the proletariat rising up and toppling them.
Not even colonial societies, I'd say, just wherever they get the chance- just look at the way that the Scottish bourgeoisie pitted the Catholics and Protestants against each other, to the detriment of both. It's no coincidence that Clydeside, the region with a grander history of labour militancy than any other in Britain, is also that with the greatest history of sectarian conflict outside of Ireland itself. Bastards know what we're capable of, so they sick us on each other 'fore we get a chance to show it... :cursing:

[Jimmie Higgins]

The ever-insightful Tim Wise discusses this here, to great effect:

J3Xe1kX7WscWhy does he use a black dialect when speaking to black audiences? I find it condescending - Hilary and Obama do it too. It's like when rich people try to be populist by dropping the "g" on their "-ing"s.

I still think "privilege" is a non-radical and bullshit academic concept even if it is trendy these days. The ruling class doesn't specifically "privilage" any group but its own whereas it clearly and empirically does attack and oppress groups as can be seen in history. To my knowledge, a ruling class has never willingly granted rights it didn't have to although it often grants rights to some groups while keeping these rights from extending to everyone.

How can people seriously argue during this time when it seems so clear to me that attacks on immigrants, attacks on black people and attacks on women effect all of the working class. Literally, state governments in the US are choosing to spend money on things that are just anti-immigrant racism, or anti-black racism, rather while cutting schools. They are using sexism to attack teachers in the US due to the perception of teaching as a "female profession" but their goal is destroying the last strong unions in the country. they attack Arabs with horrible repression, but how does this "privilege" non-attacked Jews or Christians when the anti-Muslim attacks are done for the goal of justifying imperialist wars that make life worse for all working class people.

If "privilage theory" was around in 1930s Germany, would people be sitting around and saying, "wow, there is so much christian-privilege in this country, we have to recognize our inherent advantage in not being forcibly moved into ghettos and beaten by NAZIs in the street"? Being a "good German" and a "gulity-feeling German" doesn't make much of a difference in the Warsaw Ghetto, what does matter are Germans fighting back and working with Jewish anti-nazi resistance.

This "privilage" argument is like the new "third-worldist" argument because it suggests that some workers benefit from the oppression of other workers, it takes the focus off of building a real solidarity and a battle against racism and oppression and towards liberal bullshit like, "recognizing your privilege and blah blah, change starts within...".

I don't care if white people or men or straight-identifying workers feel guilty or feel like they have some advantages, what I do care about is recognizing OPPRESSION and fighting that. There's too little "privilage" for anyone but the elite in this society, so why worry about that when black kids are being profiled by cops right now or immigrants are being forced to work unsafe conditions because they are not allowed to unionized?

[Jimmie Higgins]

Non-whites do make up a very significant section of the working class in the US today though, as do women.Just a point: women are actually the majority of the employed workforce in the US.


I don't think it's correct to implicitly assume that the "white heterosexual male" worker is the "typical image" of a worker in the US. That itself is a kind of implicit white privilege,Is this a privileging of white workers? Afterall, they also sometimes "privilege" the image of blue collar workers over office or service workers even though office workers are probably better-off. They didn't "privilege" male workers when the ruling class needed female industrial workers - they "privileged" images of strong industrial female workers. I think rather than just "privilaging" some images of "typical workers" or whatnot, that this is all a calculated ploy to divide the working class by creating and propagating certain myths. Remember in the 2008 election when Hilary Clinton said "hard-working WHITE Americans" - was this some accidental "privileging" of a certain group as the norm, or a clumsy attempt to divide people along racial lines to her advantage?


and also conversely, white male workers wouldn't be under so much pressure and shame if they don't assume they are "in the lead" all the time. Like if men simply let women take charge on more things, then there will be less pressure for men. I get what you mean, but I'd be fine with men taking the lead on child and housework. Society has changed so that working class families now need 2 income earners to even consider home-ownership or things like health coverage for their kids - sexism means that families need 2 incomes, but women are still socially expected to do most of the child-rearing and often still much of the house-keeping.


I think some of the pressure on white males is the result of a kind of implicit internalised automatic feeling of "white man's burden". Just because in recent centuries European whites have been more involved in reactionary imperialism than other races and ethnicities doesn't imply there is some kind of "innate duty" for contemporary whites to make a special effort to correct this, like a few posters in this thread seem to suggest. Just let other peoples take the lead more, why don't you?I think it's more concrete than this. White hetero males suffer from racism, sexism, and homophobia. First, anti-gay bigotry (and sexism) forces straight people to feel pressure to conform to certain behaviors, and ideas just as much as LGBT people (although obviously straight people are not subject to the brunt of repression). This means it's "feminine" or "gay" to actually care about the conditions of people around you, it means you have to keep a "stiff upper lip" and not complain about things or desire things to be different in any way really. Overcoming sexism and homophobia will not only help liberate the directly oppressed groups, but will lead to increased openness and liberation in general. White people suffer from anti-black racism because racism was used to justify restrictions on all rights, increased police powers, spending on prisons rather than public schools ("urban" kids can't/don't want to learn say politicians). Anti-immigrant racism hurts native workers by creating a segregated workforce without the right to unionize that then causes a "race to the bottom" in wages. Anti-Arab racism hurts non-arabs because it is used to justify US imperialism which has sucked up poor people in the US into the military and again caused public funds to be cut for things people need in order to maintain occupations abroad; it has allowed the federal government to crack down on all rights and civil liberties and so clearly Islamaphobia helped the US to repress at least the non-Arab FRSO activists and white environmental activists etc.


The world isn't entirely controlled by rich white men. There's also rich white women, rich black men, rich black women, rich asian men, rich asian women, rich hispanic men, rich hispanic women...

Really does, say, Obama have some kind of claim to having suffered more to a poor white working class man? Or Oprah? Ethnicity shouldn't play a part in that. The deepest poverty in the US is overwhelmingly among the ethnic minorities, yes. It stills means we should alleviate the poor, not all blacks (including middle class and wealthy blacks).

I think that's a valid point about the way in which class plays a part within oppressed groups, however, I do think that while oppression is directed most severely at poor blacks, working class LGBT people etc, everyone in that group does end up getting some effect of that oppression (even workers not part of that group are effected). Obama is head of the US and responsible for maintaining the racist systems here despite part of his ethnic background... so, as an elite, he may not have to worry about not having a job or having a cop pull up next to him and ask him if he has any warrants, he is still hit with the racism of this system. He can't say a cop that arrested someone in their own home "acted stupidly" without being accused of being an anti-white bigot; he can't even be president without people thinking he was born in another country and raised by wolves or some shit. Even Sarah Palin has sexism directed at her even as she champions the "family values" and so on that bolster sexism in the US.

But there is a difference between the way people from oppressed groups are effected by the special oppressions of racism and sexism and so on. Working class women have to face sexism and then they also have to be powerless workers in society, whereas Hilary Clinton might face sexist comments, but also has a lot of power in society and is not alienated like working class women. She doesn't really have to worry about choosing between being a mother and having a career like working class women do because Hillary can have an army of private tutors and take her kids with her - and she could have an army of private day-care people to buy the baby clothes and take care of the baby during the work-day. So Hiliary is attacked for not being "feminine" enough because she isn't a stay-at-home mom, which is a sexist attack, but Hilary also doesn't really have to face the material effects of sexism in the same way that most working mothers would.

[Tim Finnegan]

Why does he use a black dialect when speaking to black audiences? I find it condescending - Hilary and Obama do it too. It's like when rich people try to be populist by dropping the "g" on their "-ing"s.
He's not, that's just his accent. And I'm not even sure that the audience is predominantly black- did I miss that somewhere? :confused:


I still think "privilege" is a non-radical and bullshit academic concept even if it is trendy these days. The ruling class doesn't specifically "privilage" any group but its own whereas it clearly and empirically does attack and oppress groups as can be seen in history.How many times do I have to explain that "privilege" doesn't mean what you think it means? It refers to a form of ideological construction which sustains systems of oppression, not whatever coupon-system you seem to have interpreted it as.

[Jimmie Higgins]

He's not, that's just his accent. And I'm not even sure that the audience is predominantly black- did I miss that somewhere? :confused:I can't play that video posted, I was talking about a speech I heard him give on the radio - but I don't know what he sounds like in the video above.


How many times do I have to explain that "privilege" doesn't mean what you think it means? It refers to a form of ideological construction which sustains systems of oppression, not whatever coupon-system you seem to have interpreted it as.Either in the common sense of privilege as "advantage/coupon" or this idea that the ruling class favors certain groups just "because... (they are domenent culture or whatnot)" I don't see how "privilege theory" in any way really advances serious fight-back against racism. It always seems to boil down to some kind of idealist thing of "privileged groups" recognizing their own privilege.

[tracher999]

There is no black and white, we are one race the human race. You are not white you are human.

thats the problem some people dont wanna be human because they now how people be wars for oil and all that shit racist bullshit i understand it why some people never wanna be human

[Delenda Carthago]

Complaining about being white is stupid. Complaining about being any type of ethnicity is stupid.

Its the magnificance of post modern "Left".

[Tablo]

This is definitely one of the worst threads this year. It truly is. Good job.

[Manic Impressive]

This is definitely one of the worst threads this year. It truly is. Good job.
well thank fuck you just improved it with your constructive and insightful post :)

[tachosomoza]

Feeling and expressing pride, guilt or anger based on a stupid bourgeois concept like race is idiotic beyond explanation. Work towards the elimination of the system that created them.

[Tim Finnegan]

I can't play that video posted, I was talking about a speech I heard him give on the radio - but I don't know what he sounds like in the video above.
Well, he's from Tennessee, so he often just talks like that. If his accent changes much, it seems to be more about how comfortable he is adopting a more vernacular tone, which isn't uncommon.


Either in the common sense of privilege as "advantage/coupon" or this idea that the ruling class favors certain groups just "because... (they are domenent culture or whatnot)" I don't see how "privilege theory" in any way really advances serious fight-back against racism. It always seems to boil down to some kind of idealist thing of "privileged groups" recognizing their own privilege.
If that's how it's being handled, then it's being seriously misused. It's a useful analytical concept, but I certainly don't think that it can be treated as a stand-in for action.

And again, the understanding of privilege I suggest is not about the ruling class actively favouring a certain group- although that may well be a product of it- and certainly not "just because", but of the construction of a hegemonic ideological system in such a way that presents certain groups as naturally dominant, and in doing so sustains capitalist relations, however it may do so.

[Anarchrusty]

This is definitely one of the worst threads this year. It truly is. Good job.


Don't get all snobby on people that actually DO grasp the unfathomless depths of the consequences of the annointed class and how it effects the struggle and it's holding back of the trampled whom are the lowest but not by choice?
Would you like to stampede over them all over agaion and again?

[Queercommie Girl]

Is this a privileging of white workers? Afterall, they also sometimes "privilege" the image of blue collar workers over office or service workers even though office workers are probably better-off.


Yes, it's not just based on race or ethnicity. But privileging blue collar workers in this aesthetic manner is indeed a problem for leftists. Some leftists still believe that white collar workers aren't "real workers". That is actually a form of discrimination. Not all forms of discrimination are based on pay levels.



They didn't "privilege" male workers when the ruling class needed female industrial workers - they "privileged" images of strong industrial female workers. I think rather than just "privilaging" some images of "typical workers" or whatnot, that this is all a calculated ploy to divide the working class by creating and propagating certain myths. Remember in the 2008 election when Hilary Clinton said "hard-working WHITE Americans" - was this some accidental "privileging" of a certain group as the norm, or a clumsy attempt to divide people along racial lines to her advantage?


Yes, of course it's largely a product of the ruling class's "divide-and-rule" strategy. But then that's where privilege based on race and ethnicity (as well as other types of privileges) actually come from in the first place. It's all a product of class society.

You might not like the term "privilege", I honestly don't really care. I don't care about mere semantics (i.e. what term is used) as long as the concrete reality that certain sections of workers have more advantages over other sections of workers is acknowledged.



I get what you mean, but I'd be fine with men taking the lead on child and housework. Society has changed so that working class families now need 2 income earners to even consider home-ownership or things like health coverage for their kids - sexism means that families need 2 incomes, but women are still socially expected to do most of the child-rearing and often still much of the house-keeping.


True. I was just making a very general point.



I think it's more concrete than this. White hetero males suffer from racism, sexism, and homophobia. First, anti-gay bigotry (and sexism) forces straight people to feel pressure to conform to certain behaviors, and ideas just as much as LGBT people (although obviously straight people are not subject to the brunt of repression). This means it's "feminine" or "gay" to actually care about the conditions of people around you, it means you have to keep a "stiff upper lip" and not complain about things or desire things to be different in any way really. Overcoming sexism and homophobia will not only help liberate the directly oppressed groups, but will lead to increased openness and liberation in general. White people suffer from anti-black racism because racism was used to justify restrictions on all rights, increased police powers, spending on prisons rather than public schools ("urban" kids can't/don't want to learn say politicians). Anti-immigrant racism hurts native workers by creating a segregated workforce without the right to unionize that then causes a "race to the bottom" in wages. Anti-Arab racism hurts non-arabs because it is used to justify US imperialism which has sucked up poor people in the US into the military and again caused public funds to be cut for things people need in order to maintain occupations abroad; it has allowed the federal government to crack down on all rights and civil liberties and so clearly Islamaphobia helped the US to repress at least the non-Arab FRSO activists and white environmental activists etc.


Well, you have a point, but the kind of "oppression" experienced by whites, heterosexuals and men due to racism, sexism and queerphobia is still nothing like the kind of explicit oppression experienced by non-whites, homosexuals and women. There is a qualitative difference.

After all, one could even argue that capitalism is not only oppressive to the workers, but "oppressive" to capitalists too, since capitalism alienates all of humanity fundamentally. I think Engels once made such a point. But obviously it doesn't mean capitalists are "oppressed" by capitalism in a similar way to how workers are.

[RedRaptor]

Criticising racism is important, criticising imperialism is important. Making white people ashamed to be white is racism. If a white person hates themselves for being white that is racism and is as bad as if a black person is made ashamed for being black.

I strongly disagree. Black people had to suffer through slavery. They earned that right. All that White people have earned is the right to be ashamed. As long as White people exist, theres always going to be some white supremacist somewhere. If humanity is going to make any progress then white people should be made to be ashamed. That way theyll marry other races and the threat of facists will just disappear on its own.

[Tim Finnegan]

I strongly disagree. Black people had to suffer through slavery. They earned that right. All that White people have earned is the right to be ashamed.
Firstly, how is "shame" something which is accumulated over time? Are you dealing in some sort of feudal notion of hereditary honour, or some spiritual notion of accursedness? Either way, what you're suggesting doesn't seem to have much to do with the materialism which necessarily underpins any sensible leftism.
Secondly, is that not an over-generalisation? I, for example, am Irish-Scots, so which of my ancestors, exactly, accumulated this genetic curse of yours? Was it the Galloway coal miners, or the Donegal dirt-farmers? Perhaps the starving peasants fleeing the famine, or the homeless crofters driven out of the Highlands by vicious landlords? Mine is not a line that has profited greatly from capitalism, and the same is true of, at least, most of my countrymen.


As long as White people exist, theres always going to be some white supremacist somewhere.Yet more nonsense. Whiteness, as with all over "racial" identities is socially constructed. "White people" have existed since the palaeolithic, but you won't find a singe "white supremacist" prior to the colonial era.


If humanity is going to make any progress then white people should be made to be ashamed. That way theyll marry other races...Even setting aside your creepy social engineering, how the hell does that even work? People with crippling inferiority complexes tend not to romantically pursue those they view as their superiors.


...and the threat of facists will just disappear on its own.Yeah, because it's not as if people of colour have ever operated repressive or reactionary regimes, is it? Just look at the Tokugawa Shogunate- a hippy love-in if there ever was one! :rolleyes:

[Aspiring Humanist]

You didn't choose to be white, so why be ashamed of something you had no control over?
Being ashamed of being white is just as stupid as taking pride in it.

[Arilou Lalee'lay]

"performing whiteness"?

I believe this is an extension of Judith Butler's view on gender to race. She critiqued Simone de Beauvoir's idea that one becomes male or female, pointing out that there is no reason human bodies need to be divided into male and female. One performs gender, just as they perform race. That the division exists, and that importance is placed on it, effects our society in just as real of a way as the privilege, inequality, etc. of each group that is created by the division does. Her theory of performativity was based on J.L. Austin's work on the performativity of language.

Just wanted to give people interested in further reading some names to google (have to cover my ass against the blatant anti-intellectuals here).

[PhoenixAsh]

I strongly disagree. Black people had to suffer through slavery.

You do realise though that on the whole...only a minority of "black" people ended up in slavery owned by "white" people. And...on that note...enslavement of "black" people by the Ottoman empire and by other African nations was at least as big if not much larger. There were some 25 million "white" people owned as slaves by the Ottoman empire.
Not to mention the millions of Asian slaves owned by Asians. Indiginous South and Meso American tribes had other indiginous South and Meso American tibes as slaves....

So...do they have to feel ashamed as well? Because hell...if slavery in the past of people who have somewhat the same skin colour as you do is a reason to be ashamed about your skin colour...then I am pretty damned sure everybody in the world needs to feel ashamed....except perhaps eskimo's



They earned that right. All that White people have earned is the right to be ashamed.

Yeah...you see...I really do not feel guilty at all about something people way, way before my time did over which I had no influence at all.




As long as White people exist, theres always going to be some white supremacist somewhere.

There are idiots in every group.



If humanity is going to make any progress then white people should be made to be ashamed.

Yeah...pretty sure you are just a troll now.



That way theyll marry other races and the threat of facists will just disappear on its own.

yeah...because only white people can be fascists, dictators and slavers.

I think it would be enlightening for you to study some world history.
:rolleyes:



Also...you keep perpetuating the social construct in your post. Just to let you know...

[Chicxulub]

Then don't be white, simple as that. while you may not be able to voluntarily take yourself out of the white power structure, there are many simple ways to help destroy this "white" race:

1.) identify by your heritage, never as "white". I.e, if you're Irish American, identify as "Irish", "Celtic", or "Irish American", never as "white". Be proud of your heritage and culture, and in turn, you'll see less need to cling onto a concept of a "white" race anyways.

2.) denounce white privilege where you see it being utilized against someone else. Don't stand by idle. if a black is being denied service at a restaurant, or is being mistreated, show solidarity.

3.) Don't try to "be" black, or "be" mexican. That just always comes off as racist. be yourself.

4.) Don't make up a reason for yourself to throw yourself a pity party and claim you're "oh so oppressed" beyond how capitalism has already oppressed us. faux oppression just pisses off those who really are oppressed.

and that's all I have for now.

[Chicxulub]

If a white person hates themselves for being white that is racism and is as bad as if a black person is made ashamed for being black.

I hate the concept of a "white race", but that's because white people don't really exist, except as a fictional entity throughout various periods of European and American history. The white race has always been a tool of control, seeing how various races over time have been demoted from the white race (Arabs, Northern Indians, Albanians, Caucasians from the Caucasus, etc), and others, promoted into it (the Irish, the Polish, Italians, etc.).
Anyone who notices this pattern of constant demotion and promotion usually quickly realizes that there is no biological basis, nor even a psycho-social basis, in the white race, and that it exists as an abstract created by capitalist leaders towards the end of the 17th century to justify the ever expanding empires of European nations into Africa and the Americas, and to silence the voices who noticed that race isn't really a moral reason to colonize entire peoples...thus the white race was born.

So in short, European people's should identify with their heritages, not the so-called "white race", if they ever wish to do away with white privilege. that's not to say I advocate ignoring the paradigms created by centuries of racial oppression, but that revolution really does start with you.

[Chicxulub]

You do realise though that on the whole...only a minority of "black" people ended up in slavery owned by "white" people. And...on that note...enslavement of "black" people by the Ottoman empire and by other African nations was at least as big if not much larger. There were some 25 million "white" people owned as slaves by the Ottoman empire.
Not to mention the millions of Asian slaves owned by Asians. Indiginous South and Meso American tribes had other indiginous South and Meso American tibes as slaves....

Well well welll, don't you sound like the good little racist, well versed in stormfront! Let me correct your peabrained ways for you:

1.) enslavement in Africa (while wrong, nonetheless) was MUCH different than what was practiced in European nations. For one, African slaves weren't enslaved for their skin color, could marry into families, and weren't degraded and designed by society to feel inferior because of their skin color or status. Hell, according to Howard Zinn, many of them could even own property.

2.) Source on the Ottoman empire holding 25 million "white" slaves? because it sounds like more Victorian-era chauvinism against the Ottomans, of which there was a moral panic involving "oriental" traders selling "innocent white girls."

3.) slavery in North America and Europe was designed to work in a capitalist frame of reference. slaves in the plantations had quotas, or would get their hands cut off, and had to meet and keep up with market demands, or when market demands fell, they'd be culled (read any book by Adam Hothschild to get the idea). slavery in the other societies you mentioned, while still completely wrong, was not even remotely close to the same thing.

It seems you're blinded by racism. you should be moderated.

[Arilou Lalee'lay]

Be proud of your heritage There is no reason to be proud of a group you happen to be a part of by birth.


identify as "Irish", "Celtic", Once upon a time Irish people were distinctively different looking than the rest of "white" people (or maybe it was just the accent? It doesn't really matter), and discriminated against. Changing your racial category doesn't change the stupidity of having such categories, which creates the possibility of further divide and conquer tactics by the ruling class, as well as fitting in with the bourgeois right to inheritance.

Your "heritage" sounds only superficially different than "race", though it has a more accurate and less evil name. Not that there's anything wrong with looking into Irish culture, decorating with Celtic knots, etc., but you recommended "identifying" specifically.


2.) Source on the Ottoman empire holding 25 million "white" slaves? I'd also be interested in seeing the source for this, if it isn't too much trouble to dig up.

[RedRaptor]

There is no reason to be proud of a group you happen to be a part of by birth.


I keep telling that to native Americans and African Americans but they never listen. You do know how stupid you sound right now, right?

[Arilou Lalee'lay]

No. Enlighten me.

If you practice native American "culture", and you want to retain that culture because you like it, or even be proud of it, great. If you're a Japanese person that likes and adopts native American culture, also great.

If you're a native American born in Europe, with European "culture", there is no reason to be proud that you have different ancestors than everyone else.

EDIT: the quotes around culture are meant to cover my ass against people who might want to take issue with the term itself. I simply mean the common definition here: language, specific bits of world views, traditions, etc.

[RedRaptor]

So your saying I shouldnt be proud of my people who suffered through slavery who survived in a country that didnt even see them as people? I shouldn't be proud of my brothers or sisters? Of my ancestors who sacrificed to give me my place on this Earth? I thought we were about progress. Not disrespect!

[Arilou Lalee'lay]

Right, you should be no more proud of them than any other oppressed group. And pride isn't really the right word here, you didn't do any of it. I (immediately French ancestry) "should" admire MLK as much as an ancestor of American slaves should, even if they feel the effects of his actions more strongly.

[Chicxulub]

No. Enlighten me.

If you practice native American "culture", and you want to retain that culture because you like it, or even be proud of it, great. If you're a Japanese person that likes and adopts native American culture, also great.

Yeah...that's what I meant. "Heritage" is things like culture, history, etc. perhaps before you criticize my word choice, you look up what it means and educate yourself nicely? :)

[RedRaptor]

Right, you should be no more proud of them than any other oppressed group. And pride isn't really the right word here, you didn't do any of it. I (immediately French ancestry) &quot;should&quot; admire MLK as much as an ancestor of American slaves should, even if they feel the effects of his actions more strongly.

What? :) You are crazy, yea you should respect MLK. But telling someone not to be proud of their heritage is like the exact opposit!

[Devrim]

2.) Source on the Ottoman empire holding 25 million "white" slaves? because it sounds like more Victorian-era chauvinism against the Ottomans, of which there was a moral panic involving "oriental" traders selling "innocent white girls."

Technically everyone in the Ottoman Empire was a slave of the Padishah. The population of the Ottoman Empire at its peak has been estimated to be about 35 million. Given that the vast majority of its inhabitants would have been white*, it seems a reasonable estimate, and probably a very conservative one.

Of course this is probably not what people mean when they say that there were 25 million white slaves in the Ottoman Empire.

Devrim

*I suppose this depends on whether you see the peoples of the Middle East such as Turks, Kurds, and Arabs as white.

[Arilou Lalee'lay]

Yeah...that's what I meant. "Heritage" is things like culture, history, etc. perhaps before you criticize my word choice, you look up what it means and educate yourself nicely? :)You don't call a person of Japanese ancestry who practices native American culture "of native American heritage" though, do you? Expect to be misunderstood by everyone I know, if you do. Heritage has a cultural component, yes, but it is presumed to be dependent on your ancestor's culture, not on one of your choosing. It's that ancestral component I'm arguing against.

From: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/heritage
Etymology

French héritage (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/h%C3%A9ritage), from Latin hereditas (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hereditas).
Noun

heritage (usually uncountable (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary#uncountable); plural heritages (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/heritages#English))


An inheritance (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/inheritance); property (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/property) that may be inherited (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/inherited).
A tradition (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tradition); something that can be passed (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/passed) down (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/down) from preceding (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/preceding) generations (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/generation).
A birthright (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/birthright); the status (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/status) acquired (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/acquired) by birth (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/birth), especially of but not exclusive to the firstborn (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/firstborn).
(attributive (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:English_nouns#Attributive)) Having a certain background, such as growing up with a second language.



From:http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hereditas:
Noun

hērēditas (genitive hērēditātis (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hereditatis)); f, third declension (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Latin_third_declension)


inheritance (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/inheritance)
hereditary (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hereditary) succession (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/succession)

[Chicxulub]

. Heritage has a cultural component, yes, but it is presumed to be dependent on your ancestor's culture, not on one of your choosing. It's that ancestral component I'm arguing against.

[/LIST]

What's wrong with being proud of what one's ancestor's toiled and endured for? Why shouldn't, for example, the Vietnamese people be proud of Ho Chi Minh, or the glorious war against US imperialism, when they're not related to him or the Viet Minh (since they're younger)? Why shouldn't Russians celebrate the achievements of the Soviets over the White Russians? Heritage is something to be proud of, not race.

[Arilou Lalee'lay]

Why shouldn't Russians celebrate the achievements of the Soviets over the White Russians?
You're implying that I should be less proud of it, despite not being Russian, and thus that people inherit some merit from their ancestors' actions.

[Chicxulub]

You're implying that I should be less proud of it, despite not being Russian, and thus that people inherit some merit from their ancestors' actions.

I imagine then that you don't love your mother or father then...or your grandparents...afterall, you were just born with them correct?

[Arilou Lalee'lay]

Love is completely different from pride. I'm not any more proud of my parents than I am of any other good parents (not to say anything for or against the family structure).

Noun

pride (plural prides (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/prides#English))


The quality or state of being proud (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/proud); inordinate self-esteem; an unreasonable conceit of one's own superiority in talents, beauty, wealth, rank etc., which manifests itself in lofty airs, distance, reserve and often contempt (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/contempt) of others.
A sense of one's own worth (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/worth), and abhorrence of what is beneath or unworthy of one; lofty self-respect; noble self-esteem; elevation of character; dignified bearing; proud delight; -- in a good sense.

The pride of the peacock is the glory of God.—William Blake


Proud or disdainful behavior or treatment; insolence or arrogance of demeanor; haughty bearing and conduct; insolent exultation; disdain (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/disdain); hubris (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hubris).

"Pride goeth before the fall" -G.K. Chesterton, Introduction to Aesop's Fables


That of which one is proud (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/proud); that which excites boasting or self-gratulation; the occasion or ground of self-esteem, or of arrogant and presumptuous confidence, as beauty, ornament, noble character, children etc.
(zoology (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/zoology)) The small European lamprey (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lamprey) species Petromyzon branchialis.
Show; ostentation; glory.
Highest pitch (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pitch); elevation reached; loftiness; prime; glory,

to be in the pride of one's life.


Consciousness of power; fullness of animal spirits; mettle; wantonness.
Lust; sexual desire; especially, excitement of sexual appetite in a female beast.
(zoology (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/zoology)) A company of lions (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lion).

[Die Rote Fahne]

Race is a social construct, heritage is just the previous social constructs which led to action, action by people, not "a people".

[WeAreReborn]

What's wrong with being proud of what one's ancestor's toiled and endured for? Why shouldn't, for example, the Vietnamese people be proud of Ho Chi Minh, or the glorious war against US imperialism, when they're not related to him or the Viet Minh (since they're younger)? Why shouldn't Russians celebrate the achievements of the Soviets over the White Russians? Heritage is something to be proud of, not race.
You should be proud of what humans have toiled for and accomplished, not someone of a similar race, which is a socially created construct, accomplished. So we as humans should be proud of Ho Chi Minh, to use your example, because he was human, and adhered to similar beliefs. Not because you are Vietnamese and he happened to be Vietnamese as well. All that does is categorize people and takes away from who they are as a person.

[RedRaptor]

I keep hearing race is a social construct. And thats all good and all and I like people all being treated equally but its really starting to get creepy. Cult creepy. I feel like you wana remove the heritage of people. We all come from something and part of descrimination is removing someones identity. Thats what the british did to the irish isnt it? It alright to fight descrimination but attacking someone whos falling back on their heritage telling some one that they cant be what they feel they are, isnt that bad? Im kindof new here but it seems hypocritical.

[Arilou Lalee'lay]

I've been smelling socks in this thread for a while. But I'll assume good faith until a mod gets on.


I keep hearing race is a social construct. And thats all good and all and I like people all being treated equally but its really starting to get creepy. Cult creepy.So what? If you think it's dogmatic, argue with the idea, not what it "sounds like".


I feel like you wana remove the heritage of people.Straw man. Regardless of how you feel, it's not what we're saying.


attacking someone whos falling back on their heritage telling some one that they cant be what they feel they are, isnt that bad? It is bad. And no one here is recommending it. Another straw man.

But you may as well ignore me. Hailtothethief's beautifully concise post is all you need to know.

[RedRaptor]

Sock? Heck you talking about you were just trying to argue against heritage. Hold on Ill scroll back, yep you even say you are agruing against it. And stop saying straw man. Strawman: an argument set up to be defeated. I was making points. Like I am now. Woops I guess this is a strawman. Woops another strawman. Woops another strawman.

[Die Rote Fahne]

I keep hearing race is a social construct. And thats all good and all and I like people all being treated equally but its really starting to get creepy. Cult creepy. I feel like you wana remove the heritage of people. We all come from something and part of descrimination is removing someones identity. Thats what the british did to the irish isnt it? It alright to fight descrimination but attacking someone whos falling back on their heritage telling some one that they cant be what they feel they are, isnt that bad? Im kindof new here but it seems hypocritical.

I'm fine with "taking away" my own heritage, is that hypocritical?

To be proud of your heritage is a ridiculous concept. You take pride in the actions of these people, not because they accomplished something, but because they did it and you happened to be born of the same lineage or have ancestors from the same nation.

Be proud of all positives of human activity and be ashamed of all vices.

The holocaust was caused by humans, not whites. Peanut butter was invented by a human, not a black. Marxism was developed by two humans, not a Jew and a German.

[RedRaptor]

I'm fine with &quot;taking away&quot; my own heritage, is that hypocritical?

To be proud of your heritage is a ridiculous concept. You take pride in the actions of these people, not because they accomplished something, but because they did it and you happened to be born of the same lineage or have ancestors from the same nation.

Be proud of all positives of human activity and be ashamed of all vices.

The holocaust was caused by humans, not whites. Peanut butter was invented by a human, not a black. Marxism was developed by two humans, not a Jew and a German.

Wow, holocaust wasn't done by white people. Thats probably the only time ill ever see that. Im not even white and I see that pulled up all the time. Ever read The Wave? Good book about how community + white people = Nazis. I really get what your going for but I think you can really piss off a lot of people. Thats like taking away black history and calling it human history. I feel ya but this shit just isnt going ot go anywhere good.

[Arilou Lalee'lay]

Sock? Heck you talking about I was accusing you and the Chicx person of being the same person, created to give the illusion of popularity, a technique called a sock puppet. I apologize if I'm incorrect.


Strawman: an argument set up to be defeated. I prefer:

A straw man is a component of an argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_argument) and is an informal fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informal_fallacy) based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man#cite_note-book-0) To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man#cite_note-book-0)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man#cite_note-files-1)My point was that you were arguing against a position no one is taking. I argued against "identifying" with your heritage, against being proud of the culture you were born into simply because you were born into it. I never argued to take someone's heritage away, to say "you can't be Irish anymore you have to be British". You are putting those words in my mouth.


Wow, holocaust wasn't done by white people.

You are completely missing his point. I refuse to debate with you anymore until you put some more thought into your posts. You have hijacked this thread and kept any of the interesting discussion on gender identity, etc., from continuing, and I won't continue to be a party to it.

[Zav]

-snip-
Gender is relative to your mind, not your body.
Race doesn't exist. There are only humans.
No one is free if everyone else is not, therefore your people are oppressed, and your part in the struggle is as valid as anyone else's.

[RedRaptor]

My point was that you were arguing against a position no one is taking. I argued against &quot;identifying&quot; with your heritage, against being proud of the culture you were born into simply because you were born into it. Uh yea brother thats what Im having a problem with. Im black I identify myself as black. If I want to be Jewish then Im jewish but its part of a peoples tradition to be born into something then who the hell are you to tell them that they are not to take a sense of pride and hence a sense of self out of what they are. Shit just because I say Im proud to be black doesnt mean being asian is bad. Doesnt mean I hate jews. I just want to be black damnit! Thats my right as human being isnt it? Woop sorry that must be strawman. EDIT: Gender Identity? This thread is about some white guy not wanting to be WHITE! Btw OP I change my original view. Be white, thats your right. You didnt do anything wrong.

[Arilou Lalee'lay]

Damnit, why can't I just let someone else have the last word for once *sigh*... can't resist:


Shit just because I say Im proud to be black doesnt mean being asian is bad. Doesnt mean I hate jews. I just want to be black damnit! Thats my right as human being isnt it? Woop sorry that must be strawman.

Actually, yes. I never accused you of hating a heritage you don't identify with. It's really more off topic though.


Uh yea brother thats what Im having a problem with. Im black I identify myself as black.

If you were born into "black culture", and you think it's just as good a culture as any other culture, or better, go for it. I just don't think you should give the culture you were born into preference over any other culture.

[Zav]

EDIT: Gender Identity? This thread is about some white guy not wanting to be WHITE! Btw OP I change my original view. Be white, thats your right. You didnt do anything wrong.
The OP also said he had male guilt.

[RedRaptor]

Actually, yes. I never accused you of hating a heritage you don't identify with. It's really more off topic though.


Then why do you hate people who identify with their heritage and prefer it?

[Arilou Lalee'lay]

You're not getting the straw man thing still, I see. I never said I hate anyone.

I said you shouldn't identify with your heritage because it divides the working class in the same way race does. I pointed out that you should, if you like, identify with the culture you happen to be born into, suggesting that you (rather, that other person) should simply use different language to describe your culture.

People also shouldn't eat candy because it's bad for you. Doesn't mean I hate people that eat candy.

[RedRaptor]

People also shouldn't eat candy because it's bad for you. Doesn't mean I hate people that eat candy.

Strawman. Annoying isnt it?

[Arilou Lalee'lay]

No, that's an analogy, not a straw man. I didn't argue against something you didn't say, I gave a situation in which the same logic held to illustrate a point.

[PhoenixAsh]

Well well welll, don't you sound like the good little racist, well versed in stormfront! Let me correct your peabrained ways for you:

Said the guy who defends being proud of your heritage. :rolleyes:

I would also like to suggest you spend some more time researching the topic before you start denying history to serve your own political agenda by simplifying a topic which is far more complex than your
"hurdur...white people are evil and enslaved black people...durrr."
arguments....and anybody who says anything else is a racist...no matter how factual their argumenst are and how founded in history."

PLease...feel completely free to completely mis the point of my post. :rolleyes:



1.) enslavement in Africa (while wrong, nonetheless) was MUCH different than what was practiced in European nations.
For one, African slaves weren't enslaved for their skin color, could marry into families, and weren't degraded and designed by society to feel inferior because of their skin color or status. Hell, according to Howard Zinn, many of them could even own property.

Most of the North African and Levant slave trade was comming from all over the world. Including the Scandinavian slave trade; Crimean slave trade; Northern Russian slave trade; Spanish empire slave trade (mostly Jews) and huge numbers of slaves from Eastern European groups as well as huge numbers of slaves from African tribes and nations below the equator....or if you prefer Sub-Saharan regions....were the Ottoman slave trade originated and where it had a very nice and convenient infrastructure in place. One which was initially used by the European countries (most notably Portugese, Italian and Spanish) initially to start of their own slave trade to the colonies in Northern America. This infrastructure was run by North-Africans and Sub-sharan slave trading nations.

Within sub-saharan Africa itself slavery was endemic as a way of live...much of it, as in Europe, based on pseudo slavery such as serfdom...much of it as downright slavery as we distinguish it from serfdom. It definately had ethnic dimensions and to suggest otherwise is laughable.

There are two main groups who dealt in slaves prior to the arrival of the Europeans:

Northern African slavers usually went out to capture inland tribal communities as slaves and transported them through porst such as Zanzibar or overland through Egypt (this route became dominant after the 1600's since the Europeans controlled much of the Oceans in the meditarenean).

And the African slave nations. And these, like the Oya, Fouton, Kabuu and several others became the chief suppliers for the European slavers...who rarely went to capture slaves themselves...and mostly used existing infrastructure though there are some exceptions. Now...these tribes and nations DID get their slaves from inland tribes and usually these were political and ethnic enemies or tribes which were seen as ethnically inferior.


...seeing as the European slave trades bought most of their slaves from other African coastal communities who were already engaging in trafficking slaves from inland tribes to places all over the world....I am sure African Slave trade was very, very begnign :rolleyes:

But I LOVE the way you try to justify slavery...you know...the concept of often forcibly taking people from their own community to be bought and sold as property to masters who owned them and could tell them what to do and when to do it and taking away their self determination and freedom as being somehow ok...as long as they can eventually marry and own property. :rolleyes:

Now...the initial justification for slavery was NOT as you so nicey try to say: skin colour.

First and foremost the slave trade was an existing and widely accepted practice. And the African slave trade for Europeans was simply a convenient continuation of existing "commodity". Its was justified not by skin colour but by religious aspirations. Both the Muslim and Christian world held strong views to keeping their own religious people as slaves.
African slave trade was initialy justified not because they were black, but because they were considered heretics and Moors.

The origins of racism is however another topic.



2.) Source on the Ottoman empire holding 25 million "white" slaves? because it sounds like more Victorian-era chauvinism against the Ottomans, of which there was a moral panic involving "oriental" traders selling "innocent white girls."

Look it up. I did not say the Ottoman empire held 25 million slaves at any one time...I said the Ottoman empire held 25 million slaves in its existence of slave trade which was abolished incidentally in the late 19th century....and yes....up until that time white people were held as slaves.





3.) slavery in North America and Europe was designed to work in a capitalist frame of reference. slaves in the plantations had quotas, or would get their hands cut off, and had to meet and keep up with market demands, or when market demands fell, they'd be culled (read any book by Adam Hothschild to get the idea). slavery in the other societies you mentioned, while still completely wrong, was not even remotely close to the same thing.

Nobody denied any of this so your arguments is beating your own drum.

But to deny brutality in other slave nations is a bit stupid there buddy. I'll give you one very nice example...the Dohamy had a long tradition of slavery...and were very much accustomed to kill slaves as part of festivals BEFORE the Europeans even showed up. Not to mention the fact that the very same treatment you descibe here existed within the continuing slavery in Northern Africa and Asia as well.

****

Now...I also LOVE the way you do not mention ANYTHING about Asian slavery. You know...the slave trade within Asia aswell as the slave trade of Asian people towards Africa and the Caribean.

Nor of South and Meso American slavery prior to colonisation and subsequently running along colonisation in the not yet conquered area's



It seems you're blinded by racism. you should be moderated.

No...between you and me I am actually the only one who is not blinded by the social concept of race and do not try to twist and turn historic facts to serve my own agenda. You on the other hand seem more than willing to try to redefine slavery as a concept towards your own moral and political agenda.

The mere mention of the fact that other ethnic groups than "white" people were prevalent and dominant in the global slave trade and that
as a concept not only "white" people engaged in it or perpetuated it or were brutally treatingh and treading on the liberties of men and women in order to use them as commodities seems to enrage you and set you of in ad hominems.

Noweher did I mention or belittle the fact that the slavery in North America or the European slave trade was not brutal or abject...or one of the causes, if not the main cause, of the current racism....but you seem to feel the need to engage in adhominem and strawmen instead of factual and honest debate.

Keep up the good work! When you grow up and actually learn something about the history of slavery, the international slave trade and the fact that this was no ethnic phenominom to be contributed to "white" people but is a much more widespread and complex subject I hope you will understand your complete stupidity here. :thumbup1:

[Die Rote Fahne]

Wow, holocaust wasn't done by white people. Thats probably the only time ill ever see that. Im not even white and I see that pulled up all the time. Ever read The Wave? Good book about how community + white people = Nazis. I really get what your going for but I think you can really piss off a lot of people. Thats like taking away black history and calling it human history. I feel ya but this shit just isnt going ot go anywhere good.

...right over your head.

[Hiero]

Lay off the alcohol.

I think that is the best advice, whether black, white, latino, indigenous or asian.

[Tim Finnegan]

If you practice native American "culture", and you want to retain that culture because you like it, or even be proud of it, great. If you're a Japanese person that likes and adopts native American culture, also great.
Um, no, not "great", "appropriative", which is bad, and especially in such a frequently-pillaged (http://nativeappropriations.blogspot.com/) case as the various Native American cultures.

This thread is getting WASPy as all hell.

[Arilou Lalee'lay]

There's a difference between culture and cheap commodification. Why shouldn't a Japanese man be able to follow a Native American religion, tell their stories to his children, etc. if he likes them better than Shinto and Japanese stories?

I'll grant you that I was forced into a silly, oversimplified, framework here by a silly opponent.

[RedRaptor]

There's a difference between culture and cheap commodification. Why shouldn't a Japanese man be able to follow a Native American religion, tell their stories to his children, etc. if he likes them better than Shinto and Japanese stories?

I'll grant you that I was forced into a silly, oversimplified, framework here by a silly opponent.

Forced?
I asked and all you did was complain about strawman. I tried to get get you to understand how heritage can be a good thing and you went off on some nonsense about how strawman are responcible for Nazi Gemrany and world hunger and how theres going to be a future strawman zombie apocolypse.

Woops thats a strawman, my bad.

[WeAreReborn]

Forced?
I asked and all you did was complain about strawman. I tried to get get you to understand how heritage can be a good thing and you went off on some nonsense about how strawman are responcible for Nazi Gemrany and world hunger and how theres going to be a future strawman zombie apocolypse.

Woops thats a strawman, my bad.
But the point is you didn't understand the argument you were "arguing" against. Heritage is a negative thing because it categorizes people into society created terms. If you were to genetically divide humans into any categories there would only be two; male and female, for obvious physical and mental differences, meaning chemical balances I am obviously not implying superiority or inferiority. Races really mean absolutely nothing. So saying yeah my race did this and that, therefore I am proud, is foolish because races do not exist. Be proud of humanity and critical of humanities mistakes. Not something of a socially created group that you were born into.

[RedRaptor]

And you dont understand my argument. I already said just because I identify myself as black doesnt mean Im going to go off and kill a white person. It doesnt mean I think we should be seperate its just a thing! Your obsession doesnt make sense if theres no Nazis around to pick on people because of race. Its like too much of a good thing. Not unlike what Britain did to Ireland. And what the hell are you talking about genetic difference. I know Im geneticly better for standing out in the sun on the beach then a pasty ginger. Again, doesnt mean I want to kill gingers but yea there is some evolution there. I know my brothers in the northern hemisphere have a vitimin D problem because we dont absorb sunlight like everyone else. Know what that means?
Black genocide? NOPE. Thanks to racial awarness I can move to Ireland and take some suppliments. Paranoid! You guys are really pushing too hard. CLAM DOWN!!!

[Arilou Lalee'lay]

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa44/Woden87/obvious-troll.jpg

[WeAreReborn]

And you dont understand my argument. I already said just because I identify myself as black doesnt mean Im going to go off and kill a white person.

What? I never even remotely implied this, let alone said it. I was using being proud of a race's accomplishments as an example, I never mentioned violence.


It doesnt mean I think we should be seperate its just a thing! Your obsession doesnt make sense if theres no Nazis around to pick on people because of race. Its like too much of a good thing. Not unlike what Britain did to Ireland.

I don't understand the point here at all.

And what the hell are you talking about genetic difference. I know Im geneticly better for standing out in the sun on the beach then a pasty ginger.
Genetically "better"? You are genetically different. And if you look statistically speaking people of different races are so amazingly similar it is ridiculous. The majority of difference is purely aesthetic.


Again, doesnt mean I want to kill gingers but yea there is some evolution there. I know my brothers in the northern hemisphere have a vitimin D problem because we dont absorb sunlight like everyone else. Know what that means?
Black genocide? NOPE. Thanks to racial awarness I can move to Ireland and take some suppliments. Paranoid! You guys are really pushing too hard. CLAM DOWN!!!
I don't think you even read what I posted. That is more of personal awareness, not racial. Not everyone of a said race has vitamin D deficiency. It could be more common, but you shouldn't take the as a fact, you should just know how you are on a personal level. I have a genetic thyroid problem, because of this I have hyperthyroidism. Does this mean every German/Italian has it? No it just means I have it personally and it was passed on through my family. Attributing this to a specific race is unscientific.

What is up with you and killing other races and people who look different? I never mentioned either of these things.

[RedRaptor]

Wre are arguing so I must be a troll? Yep makes sense. You cant deal with the fact that I make some good points and you keep throwing strawman this and strawman that.
Woop... look at that!
You just created strawman in your argument you hypocrit! Violence? My point is that your over reacting. I never said you said it would result in people getting hurt. You implied the problems with it so I argued that you were over reacting. This plus this does not mean the bad things you think are going to happen are going to happen.
Get me?

[WeAreReborn]

Wre are arguing so I must be a troll? Yep makes sense. You cant deal with the fact that I make some good points and you keep throwing strawman this and strawman that.
Woop... look at that!
You just created strawman in your argument you hypocrit! Violence? My point is that your over reacting. I never said you said it would result in people getting hurt. You implied the problems with it so I argued that you were over reacting. This plus this does not mean the bad things you think are going to happen are going to happen.
Get me?
What was the strawman? I quoted your argument multiple times and argued only that. Plus how is critiquing something overreacting? I never said "bad" things will happen, all I said is that it unnecessarily divides people into categories that simply do not exist under normal and healthy circumstances.

[RedRaptor]

What was the strawman? I quoted your argument multiple times and argued only that. Plus how is critiquing something overreacting? I never said "bad" things will happen, all I said is that it unnecessarily divides people into categories that simply do not exist under normal and healthy circumstances.

Who are you kidding we all know what your implying! Racism. Other then the seperation of the working class, which I thin is an overreaction here in the U.S.. The only seperation here is what language you speak. Past that only the racists have a problem.
My other point is that it can be healthy. Its good for some people ti have that identity. Its why pagans are still around. Atheists who need a sense of self are picking up whatevr religion they can. They pick up a pagan religion and its good for fighting depression. If I was just another face in the crowd it would be boring as shit. Im a fucking Black American and thats something no one can take from me. Its empowering to have that identity. I dont hate people who aren;t it. I like having them around becuase it makes me feel even more unique.
We call that diversity.

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

I used to wonder if I should feel bad about having German ancestry, you know, with all this propaganda saying it was "the German people" who were responsible for the Holocaust. But then I found out that those ancestors in question were actually German-Russians (people who immigrated to South Russia [what is now the Ukraine] from Prussia or Alsace or whatever the hell it was in the 18th/19th century). My great great grandfather who immigrated to the US had a brother who stayed in Russia, was drafted during the First World War and died fighting the German Empire, on the Russian side. That to me represents the craziness of nationalism. So yeah, just goes to show that race/ethnicity/nationality always has been and always will be 100% a social construct.

There are no innately white people; only people who have received the right education, have the right phenotype, or been born on the right side of a border, to participate in the socially-constructed system of racial privileges.

[agnixie]

Who are you kidding we all know what your implying! Racism. Other then the seperation of the working class, which I thin is an overreaction here in the U.S.. The only seperation here is what language you speak. Past that only the racists have a problem.
My other point is that it can be healthy. Its good for some people ti have that identity. Its why pagans are still around. Atheists who need a sense of self are picking up whatevr religion they can. They pick up a pagan religion and its good for fighting depression. If I was just another face in the crowd it would be boring as shit. Im a fucking Black American and thats something no one can take from me. Its empowering to have that identity. I dont hate people who aren;t it. I like having them around becuase it makes me feel even more unique.
We call that diversity.

I don't get sunburns and I'm blonde and pretty pale because the family is sorta mixed. Your "race awareness" is bullshit "scientific" racism.

[Kuppo Shakur]

geneticly better
eeehhhhhh

[PhoenixAsh]

woaw...step back a bit...

Yes...its true that not all "black" people have a vitamin D-difficiency. Its equally true that a lot of "white" people have a vitamin D-difficiency.

But that does not mean that its not true that the genetic prediposition of black people gives them a higher chance of getting vitamin D-difficiency.

Just like its equally true that "black" people can get sunburn just as white people can...but that its more of a risk for "white" people.

None of these make white or black people better people than each other. But there is wisdom in realising your own characteristics and acting accordingly. And one of these characteristics is skin colour in some situations. Thats not racism.

Where it gets wrong is saying: I am white...I have less risk of getting vitamin D-difficiency or suffer its negative consequences therefore I am superior because I am white and non-white people are therefore less than me.

[ZeroNowhere]

I am brown. I am better at disguising myself as a tree.

[chegitz guevara]

I don't want to be human. Humans are all exploitative and stuff.

[Rafiq]

Technically everyone in the Ottoman Empire was a slave of the Padishah. The population of the Ottoman Empire at its peak has been estimated to be about 35 million. Given that the vast majority of its inhabitants would have been white*, it seems a reasonable estimate, and probably a very conservative one.

Of course this is probably not what people mean when they say that there were 25 million white slaves in the Ottoman Empire.

Devrim

*I suppose this depends on whether you see the peoples of the Middle East such as Turks, Kurds, and Arabs as white.


I think he might be confusing this iwth the Arab slave trade, which could have been occuring during ottoman rule.

Yes, Arab and African slave traders bought, sold, and traded captured Slaves from the 'Slavic' areas of Europe, and other parts (Maybe where the word Slavic comes from?).

Which kind of sais a lot about how ridiculous Racism is, considering slavery is not something always racial.

[Sword and Shield]

I think he might be confusing this iwth the Arab slave trade, which could have been occuring during ottoman rule.

Yes, Arab and African slave traders bought, sold, and traded captured Slaves from the 'Slavic' areas of Europe, and other parts (Maybe where the word Slavic comes from?).

Which kind of sais a lot about how ridiculous Racism is, considering slavery is not something always racial.

You've got it backwards. The word "slave" comes from "Slavic".

Also, your argument is meaningless. The two things to note are that slavery as practiced by Arabs and Africans was qualitatively better than slavery as practiced by Whites in the Americas. Just as wage slavery is far better than chattel slavery, chattel slavery itself comes in different levels.

[PhoenixAsh]

I think he might be confusing this iwth the Arab slave trade, which could have been occuring during ottoman rule.

Yes, Arab and African slave traders bought, sold, and traded captured Slaves from the 'Slavic' areas of Europe, and other parts (Maybe where the word Slavic comes from?).

Which kind of sais a lot about how ridiculous Racism is, considering slavery is not something always racial.


There is no could. The largest beneficiary of the Arab slave trade was the Ottoman Empire which was the main designation for the Arab and Ottoman slave trade...both as a destination and a reroute of slaves from across the world fluctuating in numbers and dominance throughout the existance of the empire...which means Northern Russia, The Caspian and surrounding Area's, Eastern Europe, The Baltics, Spain/Portugal, Italie , Africa, India, Asia...and even traded with Western and North-Middle and Western Europe...or slaves acquired from the conquests in central Europe. The main routes have always been European, Russian, Caucasus and Africa...


I also need to make two corrections.

The total number of white slaves was 12 million during the course of the entire history of the Ottoman and Arab slave trade....originating from across Europe mainly from Spain, Italy, France, England, The Netherlands (inc. Belgium), Iceland (!!) Ireland, Baltics, Central Europe, Russia and the Caucasus.

The total number of African slaves during the period to 1900 was 25 million.... (highest estimate)
The total number of Slaves during the period 1400-1900 brought by the Europeans from Africa to the America's was 14 million. (highest estimate)

[PhoenixAsh]

You've got it backwards. The word "slave" comes from "Slavic".

Also, your argument is meaningless. The two things to note are that slavery as practiced by Arabs and Africans was qualitatively better than slavery as practiced by Whites in the Americas. Just as wage slavery is far better than chattel slavery, chattel slavery itself comes in different levels.

There is ample evidence of widespread abuse of slaves; torture, mutilation, rape, physical abuse, downright murder, within the Ottoman empire and the Arab slave trade....especially for slaves which were designated into house holds or working within the farming and mining sectors. Not to mention the fact that the capture of slaves in large parts of the slave trade, especially during conquest or in the case of the Sub Saharan slave trade and ther transportation were brutal.

For the Etheopean/Abyssinian slave trade for example...the rate of recovery was a mere 10%. Which means that out of a 100 only 10 survived to arrive at their destination.

For a lot of slaves their lot was no better than that of the slaves working on the plantations.

And though the slaves in the America's were treated structurally like this...the statement that the quality of slavery in the Ottoman empire and arab slave trade was better than the slave trade in the America's maybe statistically true but are a gross simplification.

[Rafiq]

You've got it backwards. The word "slave" comes from "Slavic".

Also, your argument is meaningless. The two things to note are that slavery as practiced by Arabs and Africans was qualitatively better than slavery as practiced by Whites in the Americas. Just as wage slavery is far better than chattel slavery, chattel slavery itself comes in different levels.

I'm not denying this..

Slaves were treated predominantly well under Africans and Arabs compared to the Europeans.. but one must remember the sex slaves...

[PhoenixAsh]

I tink you need to consider the numbers. Procentually the slaves in the Ottoman and Arab slave trade were treated better. In sheer numbers there is no difference in their treatment.

Roughly 35% of the slaves in the Arab and Ottoman slave trade did not become members of the Military or Bureaucracy and were exempt from slave contracts, promotion, or a certain amount of status.

That more or less equals the total number of European slave trade to the America's.

And these slaves were on the vast majority treated without any regards for their personal well being. Also the largest part of the slaves who did serve in the military were treated absolutely horrific....especially when it came to young children levied especially for this purpose.

[chegitz guevara]

http://kasamaproject.org/2011/05/12/white-skin-privilege-its-place-in-revolutionary-politics/

[chegitz guevara]

There is ample evidence of widespread abuse of slaves; torture, mutilation, rape, physical abuse, downright murder, within the Ottoman empire and the Arab slave trade....especially for slaves which were designated into house holds or working within the farming and mining sectors. Not to mention the fact that the capture of slaves in large parts of the slave trade, especially during conquest or in the case of the Sub Saharan slave trade and ther transportation were brutal.

For the Etheopean/Abyssinian slave trade for example...the rate of recovery was a mere 10%. Which means that out of a 100 only 10 survived to arrive at their destination.

For a lot of slaves their lot was no better than that of the slaves working on the plantations.

And though the slaves in the America's were treated structurally like this...the statement that the quality of slavery in the Ottoman empire and arab slave trade was better than the slave trade in the America's maybe statistically true but are a gross simplification.

What time period are we discussing?

[PhoenixAsh]

What time period are we discussing?

For the most part the slave trade from the 650's up to the 20th century.
For both the slave trade within Europe, The European slave trade to the North America's and the Ottoman and Arab slave trade.

The original position was that slave trade is much, much larger than only the slave trade to the North America's and is pretty much not a predominantly exclusive trade which can be ascribed to nationality, skin colour or religion nor, in extention, was the brutality of the treatment of slaves unique to any one group.

[Anarchrusty]

If you'll read the Quran it says slavery is prohibited. Islam's first man Muhammed even freed a slave from the African continent called Abd and gave him his life, family and belongings back.

I am sorry to say, but I think you may have fallen for some rightwing Faux news propaganda machinery.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

There's still hope!

http://racetraitor.org/

If all else fails....

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/The-Temple/

[PhoenixAsh]

If you'll read the Quran it says slavery is prohibited. Islam's first man Muhammed even freed a slave from the African continent called Abd and gave him his life, family and belongings back.

I am sorry to say, but I think you may have fallen for some rightwing Faux news propaganda machinery.

If you would have read the Qu'ran you would have read that slavery is rampant in it. Just like it is in the Bible. And just like in the bible it regulates when you can have sex with them and when you can marry them. Nowhere in the Qu'ran is slavery forbidden.

The Ottoman empire abolished slavery in 1908. Until which time slaves were still owned and traded within its borders.

[MattShizzle]

Wasn't going to read this entire thread, but not wanting to be white is just as silly as being proud just because you're white, or "glad you're not black."

[Tim Finnegan]

Wasn't going to read this entire thread, but not wanting to be white is just as silly as being proud just because you're white, or "glad you're not black."
Well, the last one could simply be a ironically-expressed self-awareness... ;)

TG4f9zR5yzY

[Robespierre Richard]

This thread makes me ashamed to be white.

[agnixie]

If you would have read the Qu'ran you would have read that slavery is rampant in it. Just like it is in the Bible. And just like in the bible it regulates when you can have sex with them and when you can marry them. Nowhere in the Qu'ran is slavery forbidden.

The Ottoman empire abolished slavery in 1908. Until which time slaves were still owned and traded within its borders.

I seem to recall it being abolished at four different points in the 19th century, the main problem being that the ottoman empire was basically unable to control the country outside of Anatolia and the Balkans.

[PhoenixAsh]

I seem to recall it being abolished at four different points in the 19th century, the main problem being that the ottoman empire was basically unable to control the country outside of Anatolia and the Balkans.

Yes thats right. It tootk them 70 years to effectuate it. In 1871 it became a punishable offence (1 year prison sentence). In 1882 the Firman re-abolished both black and white slavery. That was finally effectuated in 1908 by which time slave trade was completely performed outside the legal codes. The illegal slave trade from then until the end of WWI included as main groups: white slaves, armenian slaves and black slaves....though also Indians and Asians.

[Queercommie Girl]

Yes thats right. It tootk them 70 years to effectuate it. In 1871 it became a punishable offence (1 year prison sentence). In 1882 the Firman re-abolished both black and white slavery. That was finally effectuated in 1908 by which time slave trade was completely performed outside the legal codes. The illegal slave trade from then until the end of WWI included as main groups: white slaves, armenian slaves and black slaves....though also Indians and Asians.

What "Asians" are you talking about?

[PhoenixAsh]

What "Asians" are you talking about?

Slaves from the nations, empires and kingdoms east of India. Which was a very small minority.

[Queercommie Girl]

Slaves from the nations, empires and kingdoms east of India.


Such as?

[PhoenixAsh]

Such as?

The Arab traders in India also traded slaves from Myanmar, China, Sri Lanka, The Indies (though Central Asian nations should also be included for accuracy). THese were mainly traded within India. Some where transported to the Middle East or traded to other slave traders, for example the Dutch and English in South Africa.

[Slavicrevolution1991]

Respect your heritage, people that complain that white people suck or are ashamed of being white because some white people have performed ill deeds are fucking morons. There are just as many asian, black, middle eastern, latino, and others who have perpetrated atrocities like like slavery upon theyre own people and others. The whole slavery thing in america perpetrated by whites in america was horrible yes, but a lot more black africans have been enslaved by other black africans and dont forget they sold the slaves to europeans

[tachosomoza]

Thank god that ^ asshole is gone.