To the libertarians: Is fascism tolerable under threat of Communism?

[RadioRaheem84]

The position seems to be quite prevalent with the political, academic and business leaders of yesteryear, as it is even today.

http://sanseverything.wordpress.com/2007/12/15/mises-and-the-merit-of-fascism/

The reason why I ask is after reading about William Randolph Hearst and comments by other leading industrialists, along with the above quoted Von Mises, that there was this perception that fascism (no matter how bad) was preferable to Communism/socialism.

Quote: "fascism will only come into existence in the United States when such movement becomes really necessary for the prevention of Communism".

- Hearst, quoted in Imperial San Fransisco by Gray A. Brechin pg. 235

Even reading Von Mises chapter on Fascism in his book Liberalism, you get this impression that most of the leading figures he associated with shared his view that fascism, while not despicable in their eyes, saved Europe from descending into Bolshevism.

This view seems largely prevalent today too and was the mantra of the Cold War, regardless if many of the nations subdued and given right wing juntas were not communist but nationalist, social democratic, socialist or liberal developmentalist.

I am not trying to pin fascism on right libertarians, but I am trying to figure out just what they think of fascism and would they opt for it over Communism/socialism if the red specter was hovering over their government?

[red cat]

Fascism is just an extreme form of bourgeois rule, while communism/socialism refers to an altogether separate class taking over. Which one will a bourgeois element prefer? Fascism will be more and more officially promoted all over the world as the ongoing revolutions progress and the international proletariat radicalizes.

[Nolan]

Whatever saves western civilization from the reds.

[altnet]

Damn commies ruining my profit margins. Obviously it must be done to preserve the rule of the current class at all costs. :rolleyes:

http://recollectionbooks.com/bleed/images/BB/commie2.jpg

[Red_Struggle]

Fascism is the extremist system of bourgeois rule through a police state, a merger of state and private corporate interests, an almighty individual leader (usually expressed in the constitutions of past fascist states, like Nazi Germany or Fascist Italy), and in some cases offical state-sponsored racism or racial segregation. If conditions are not favorable for the bourgeoisie under capitalist democracy, through strikes or unionization, a more authoritarian form of pro-business government may emerge as the contradictions between labor and capital become more widespread and identifiable. It's a natural response to growing discontent among a nation's laboring population.

What's scary is that some portions of the western population may support measures like this, even if they are discontent with the current government. Consider the Tea party in the US for example, or the legal participation of Lithuanian Nazis in their upcoming elections.

[Nunt]

In my opinion Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Russia were equally bad. I don't see many differences between both countries. Both have a large, oppressing government, a cruel dictatorship, massmurder, etc.

I guess it depends from country to country, what kind of dictator you have. It'll be somewhat better if you have mild benevolent dictator.

[Sir Comradical]

In my opinion Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Russia were equally bad. I don't see many differences between both countries. Both have a large, oppressing government, a cruel dictatorship, massmurder, etc.

I guess it depends from country to country, what kind of dictator you have. It'll be somewhat better if you have mild benevolent dictator.

I stopped reading after this rubbish "In my opinion Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Russia were equally bad".

[Nunt]

I stopped reading after this rubbish "In my opinion Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Russia were equally bad".

Strange that you read anything at all. The thread topic was: "To the libertarians: Is fascism tolerable under threat of Communism?". Appearantly, you only want to read things you can agree with. So why are you reading this thread if you don't want to know what a libertarian thinks about that issue. Did you think you would agree with a libertarian?

To be honest, I'm not very interested in the things you didn't read. Calling something rubbish isn't interesting either. Could you please not reply to my posts I you have nothing to say?

[Revolution starts with U]

So you're a libertarian?

[Nunt]

So you're a libertarian?

In some form yes.

[#FF0000]

In my opinion Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Russia were equally bad. I don't see many differences between both countries. Both have a large, oppressing government, a cruel dictatorship, massmurder, etc.

This is wrong. I'm no fan of the USSR but the USSR and Germany were very different. The state in Germany, first of all, was actually in control. Meanwhile in the USSR, the government was in a far more chaotic state. The central gov't really had a hard time keeping certain things under control (e.g. NKVD). Second, mass murder and a lot of people dying are very different things. The USSR didn't have death camps like Germany did.

tl;dr the state in Nazi Germany was a p. well oiled machine while the Soviet gov't was in some weird death spiral for a long time.

Take a look at Sheila Fitzpatrick's "The Russian Revolution". It's way better than my post in explaining why your post is kiiinda silly.

[Omsk]

I can't believe im reading such things.
If it weren't the 'Soviet state' the entire world might be covered with Swastikas..They did make mistakes,but you can't compare a genocidal mechanism composed of the most evil men in history,to the country that's citizens trough hard work and horrific sacrifices saved the world from the Nazi threat,and you simply cant negate the fact that the Soviet leaders had a little to do with that.
The Soviet Union and therefore its leader and leading top fought for freedom and peace,to vanquish the greatest threat to mankind ever - Adolf Hitler and his Nazi party.
Comparing the Soviet Union with Nazi Germany is something for me,Intolerable.

[#FF0000]

I can't believe im reading such things.
If it weren't the 'Soviet state' the entire world might be covered with Swastikas..They did make mistakes,but you can't compare a genocidal mechanism composed of the most evil men in history,to the country that's citizens trough hard work and horrific sacrifices saved the world from the Nazi threat,and you simply cant negate the fact that the Soviet leaders had a little to do with that.
The Soviet Union and therefore its leader and leading top fought for freedom and peace,to vanquish the greatest threat to mankind ever - Adolf Hitler and his Nazi party.
Comparing the Soviet Union with Nazi Germany is something for me,Intolerable.

oh god

[Nunt]

This is wrong. I'm no fan of the USSR but the USSR and Germany were very different. The state in Germany, first of all, was actually in control. Meanwhile in the USSR, the government was in a far more chaotic state. The central gov't really had a hard time keeping certain things under control (e.g. NKVD). Second, mass murder and a lot of people dying are very different things. The USSR didn't have death camps like Germany did.

tl;dr the state in Nazi Germany was a p. well oiled machine while the Soviet gov't was in some weird death spiral for a long time.

Take a look at Sheila Fitzpatrick's "The Russian Revolution". It's way better than my post in explaining why your post is kiiinda silly.

As I said, it depends on the specifics of the country. I never meant to say that both countries were identical. Of course you are gonna find a lot of differences between both countries. However, not many of those differences weigh heavy to prefer one over the other. They are similar enough to find both equally bad.

[#FF0000]

As I said, it depends on the specifics of the country. I never meant to say that both countries were identical. Of course you are gonna find a lot of differences between both countries. However, not many of those differences weigh heavy to prefer one over the other. They are similar enough to find both equally bad.

Oh, gotcha.

[Sir Comradical]

Strange that you read anything at all. The thread topic was: "To the libertarians: Is fascism tolerable under threat of Communism?". Appearantly, you only want to read things you can agree with. So why are you reading this thread if you don't want to know what a libertarian thinks about that issue. Did you think you would agree with a libertarian?

To be honest, I'm not very interested in the things you didn't read. Calling something rubbish isn't interesting either. Could you please not reply to my posts I you have nothing to say?

So wait, you're comparing:

Militarist white-supremacist capitalists seeking to subjugate the peoples of the Balkans and Eastern Europe to the status of slave nations while murdering on an industrial scale masses of communists, trade-unionists, jews, gypsies and homosexuals.

...with the Soviet Union under Stalin? If you think that then that's cool.

Please tell me why you think they were "equally bad". Humour me.

[#FF0000]

So wait, you're comparing:

Militarist white-supremacist capitalists seeking to subjugate the peoples of the Balkans and Eastern Europe to the status of slave nations while murdering on an industrial scale masses of communists, trade-unionists, jews, gypsies and homosexuals.

...with the Soviet Union under Stalin? If you think that then that's cool.

Please tell me why you think they were "equally bad". Humour me.

No he's not saying that'.

He's saying that he wouldn't like either the USSR or Nazi Germany.

Not that they are the same.

I mean I wouldn't like to live in the deepest reaches of Kashmir. I also would not like to live in Somalia. Or Saudi Arabia. They're all different, but, yeah

[Sir Comradical]

No he's not saying that'.

He's saying that he wouldn't like either the USSR or Nazi Germany.

Not that they are the same.

I mean I wouldn't like to live in the deepest reaches of Kashmir. I also would not like to live in Somalia. Or Saudi Arabia. They're all different, but, yeah

He/she said they were "equally bad". Lolwut.

[#FF0000]

He/she said they were "equally bad". Lolwut.

Yeah that doesn't mean the same, though.

[Demogorgon]

It'll be somewhat better if you have mild benevolent dictator.
No such thing. Any hope for a "benevolent dictator" is naive. A Government that draws its power from something other than the people is hardly beholden to their interests and certainly cannot reflect what they want.

[Omsk]

The point is that they were not equally bad.Could you live in the SU? Yes,it would be hard,but you could nevertheless.
And could you normally live in Nazi Germany?Only if you were a German Nazi..

[Nunt]

The point is that they were not equally bad.Could you live in the SU? Yes,it would be hard,but you could nevertheless.
And could you normally live in Nazi Germany?Only if you were a German Nazi..

Think I could live in the SU being a libertarian?

[Nunt]

No such thing. Any hope for a "benevolent dictator" is naive. A Government that draws its power from something other than the people is hardly beholden to their interests and certainly cannot reflect what they want.

Yeah I don't believe in benevolent dictators, hence my strong opposition against the state.

What I meant by benevolent was: "some are nicer than others". For example, Franco is somewhat nicer than Hitler even though they are both bad and fascists.

[El Chuncho]

The point is that they were not equally bad.Could you live in the SU? Yes,it would be hard,but you could nevertheless.
And could you normally live in Nazi Germany?Only if you were a German Nazi..

I find all the talk about the Soviet Union being worse than NAZI Germany ironic. Whether or not people agree with ''Stalinism'' or not isn't important, the fact remains that the Soviet Union had Marxist policies, left-wing policies, whereas NAZI Germany was a right-wing National Socialist state. In the SU, you didn't get sent to death camps just for having the ''wrong'' genetics.

[mastershake16]

I find all the talk about the Soviet Union being worse than NAZI Germany ironic. Whether or not people agree with ''Stalinism'' or not isn't important, the fact remains that the Soviet Union had Marxist policies, left-wing policies, whereas NAZI Germany was a right-wing National Socialist state. In the SU, you didn't get sent to death camps just for having the ''wrong'' genetics.

You're right. In the SU, you'd just get shot for uttering a word against Lord Stalin.

[#FF0000]

You're right. In the SU, you'd just get shot for uttering a word against Lord Stalin.

this actually isn't true, generally. People were often loudly critical of things.

I am a left-communist, keep in mind, but what you guys think the USSR was like is just kind of wrong.

[mastershake16]

this actually isn't true, generally. People were often loudly critical of things.

I am a left-communist, keep in mind, but what you guys think the USSR was like is just kind of wrong.

Show me some information backing up your claim, from a reputable source please.

[RedSunRising]

Didnt Stormfront approve Ron Paul?

I think Im a bigger threat to libertarians than fascists are. :)

[L.A.P.]

Don't worry RadioRaheem84, I don't think it would be the biggest crime to pin fascism on libertarians after reading the comments.


You see under strict communism people starve to death, whereas with fascism you get economic stagnation.

:blink:



IMO Mises apology for fascist good will was a prophylactic because he was a undoubtably aware of the anti semitic current running under, parallel, and within.

Yeah, because anti-Semitism was the only negative thing about fascism.:rolleyes:

[El Chuncho]

You're right. In the SU, you'd just get shot for uttering a word against Lord Stalin.

No, they got shot for being reactionaries, but many were just sent to work camps (in which they were free to go when their time was complete). Sorry, but your views on ''Lord Stalin'' are a little erred.

[mastershake16]

And a reactionary is anyone with a view opposing Lord Stalin...

Oh they got to leave after 50 years in the work camps, as long as they didn't die there?

Well in THAT CASE, I guess its okay then ;D

[L.A.P.]

Oh they got to leave after 50 years in the work camps, as long as they didn't die there?

10 actually.

[mastershake16]

10 actually.

I'm sure the sentences varied but I honestly don't care, even if it was only one day.

[El Chuncho]

And a reactionary is anyone with a view opposing Lord Stalin...

Stalin was not a lord of any kind, only the first General Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union's Central Committee, he wasn't an autocrat. Reactionaries to the party are simply reactionaries, they didn't need to criticize Stalin at all, and Stalin didn't have the ultimate say in sending them to gulags or executing them as the party was more democratic than you seem to realize. :rolleyes:

[El Chuncho]

I'm sure the sentences varied but I honestly don't care, even if it was only one day.

Don't be a troublemaker then. :D

[RedSunRising]

I'm sure the sentences varied but I honestly don't care, even if it was only one day.

Im not sure we would bother with prison sentances for libertarians.

Bullets are cheaper...Economic factors honey bunch...Im sure you would understand.

[#FF0000]

People were definitely punished for their political opinions but it just wasn't as super-villain-esque as you think, Shake.

Anyway I'll find some sources once Ismail gets online. Then I will bring you a library full of peasants talking shit to the Man Of Steel's face.

[RedSunRising]

I am a left-communist, keep in mind, but what you guys think the USSR was like is just kind of wrong.

And I will argue with Left Communist because there is common ground enough to make discussion possible....But what common ground is there between and libertarians? How is a proper discussion possible?

They are partisans of an alien class.

[mastershake16]

Im not sure we would bother with prison sentances for libertarians.

Bullets are cheaper...Economic factors honey bunch...Im sure you would understand.

Are you serious?

[RedSunRising]

Are you serious?

Put it like this the last libertarian I met got a serious head butt.

Libertarianism is the philosophy of the psychopath and sociopath. I dont think arguing over cups of tea is the way to go people like you.

Libertarians are utter scum.

[mastershake16]

Put it like this the last libertarian I met got a serious head butt.

Libertarianism is the philosophy of the psychopath and sociopath. I dont think arguing over cups of tea is the way to go people like you.

Libertarians are utter scum.

I never said I was a Libertarian, so calm down, champ.

It would appear to me that your solution to everything is a bullet in the head.

[L.A.P.]

I'm sure the sentences varied but I honestly don't care, even if it was only one day.

No, the maximum sentence was ten years or less. That's that.

[RedSunRising]

It would appear to me that your solution to everything is a bullet in the head.

No just to capitalism and its pal Imperialism.

[mastershake16]

No, the maximum sentence was ten years or less. That's that.

There are first hand accounts that would show otherwise, like the story of Karlo Štajner. 10 years....then another....then another...and another...

[RedSunRising]

There are first hand accounts that would show otherwise, like the story of Karlo Štajner. 10 years....then another....then another...and another...

Are there no political prisoners in the US slave labour prison system? Leonard Plieter and Mumia Abu Jamal come to mind...But there are more.

[#FF0000]

Are there no political prisoners in the US slave labour prison system? Leonard Plieter and Mumia Abu Jamal come to mind...But there are more.



Fun fact: there are more black men in jail now than there were black slaves before the Civil War.

[mastershake16]

I'm not defending the U.S.
You can't counter my point by saying "well they do it too..."

[mastershake16]

Fun fact: there are more black men in jail now than there were black slaves before the Civil War.

What a silly statistic! There were only 31 million less blacks in America in 1850 than there is now...

[RedSunRising]

What a silly statistic! There were only 31 million less blacks in America in 1850 than there is now...

There are more people in US jails now per capita there were at the height of the gulags in Russia, plus you needed rape as something common in the gulags or drugs or murder, but you certainly do have slave labour in the US prison system.

Also notable is the percentage of oppressed nations in the US prison slave labour camps....Whether they be Black or First Nations or Latinas/Latinos.

[RedSunRising]

I'm not defending the U.S.
You can't counter my point by saying "well they do it too..."

Are you not? Seriously? ;)

[mastershake16]

There are more people in US jails now per capita there were at the height of the gulags in Russia, plus you needed rape as something common in the gulags or drugs or murder, but you certainly do have slave labour in the US prison system.

Also notable is the percentage of oppressed nations in the US prison slave labour camps....Whether they be Black or First Nations or Latinas/Latinos.

Will you stop assuming I'm siding with the U.S.?

It seems your argument for the Soviet Union is "Well, its not as bad as the U.S." That argument is utter crap.

Personally, and almost everyone who has a political science degree would agree with me, I would say that the U.S. today is much better than the Soviet Union was, but thats not my point.

I am NOT defending the U.S., so stop comparing the U.S. to the Soviet Union!

[RedSunRising]

I am NOT defending the U.S., so stop comparing the U.S. to the Soviet Union!

Only defend the USSR until 1965 and it started going down hill after Stalin died. However humans are humans and humans mess up, so I think comparisons between the USSR and the USA and comparisons between the modern Russian Federation really do come into things if we are to get to the real bottom of things.

[RedSunRising]

Personally, and almost everyone who has a political science degree would agree with me, I would say that the U.S. today is much better than the Soviet Union was, but thats not my point.

I am NOT defending the U.S., so stop comparing the U.S. to the Soviet Union!

Im sure they would, but in terms of education and actual quality of life they would be wrong...But middle class students accepting what capitalist universities teach them? Why am I not surprised??? ;)

[mastershake16]

Only defend the USSR until 1965 and it started going down hill after Stalin died. However humans are humans and humans mess up, so I think comparisons between the USSR and the USA and comparisons between the modern Russian Federation really do come into things if we are to get to the real bottom of things.

I don't think they are necessary. I don't need a comparison to see that killing people or jailing them for expressing a political opinion is unacceptable.

How can you not condemn the USSR for that? I don't care if they're Nazi's, they shouldn't be killed or imprisoned. Citing examples of this within the United States does not justify or make the atrocities committed by the USSR any less horrible.


haha, just because a view is shared by a majority does not mean it is incorrect. I think dismissing any knowledge gained from any university that is "capitalist" is silly.

Thanks for being civil though... A Commie that doesn't rage? Nice.

[RedSunRising]

I don't think they are necessary. I don't need a comparison to see that killing people or jailing them for expressing a political opinion is unacceptable.

Thanks for being civil though... A Commie that doesn't rage? Nice.

Forget the historical realities, lets have an abstract judgement.

Do you understand the concept of class war? Your rulers do, and Im sure you do as well underneath it all.

[#FF0000]

What a silly statistic! There were only 31 million less blacks in America in 1850 than there is now...

The US has the highest prison population in the world, I believe.

Also schools nowadays are more segregated than they were 50 years ago.

So, yeah.

[mastershake16]

Forget the historical realities, lets have an abstract judgement.

Do you understand the concept of class war? Your rulers do, and Im sure you do as well underneath it all.

haha As a lover of history, I cannot simply forget history. History is one of, if not the, most important tool one can use in political discussion.

I understand the basics of class war, as Communists have described it to me, but do not buy into it. Surely, bankers and that sort want to look out for their own interests, but I don't believe that they actively try to wage "war" against the lower classes.

[mastershake16]

The US has the highest prison population in the world, I believe.

Also schools nowadays are more segregated than they were 50 years ago.

So, yeah.

##FF0000,

1) Highest prison population. Even if this is a FACT. I don't care. I just said multiple times I don't care about comparing the USSR with the U.S.
2) Even if that is fact as well, you fail to acknowledge numerous factors that would contribute to that, many of which are just human nature.

If I were to go to a new school, and as I entered the cafeteria there were 3 tables. One with all African Americans, one with all Caucasians, and one with all Hispanics. I would probably sit with the Caucasians. Not because I'm a racist, but because I have something in common with them. Perhaps if I played a sport with some of the African Americans, and I knew them, then I would sit with them because I would feel comfortable seeing familiar faces. This happens a lot with neighborhoods and immigrants. I go to school in a city where Hispanics make up 75% of the population. Its practically a little Dominican Republic. Is this due to racism or prejudice? No. Its because people want to be with people who they share common interests and background with. This factor is just one reason why schools may be more "segregated" then they were 50 years ago. I could list many more reasons but I feel as though I don't need to in order to illustrate my point.

[RedSunRising]

I understand the basics of class war, as Communists have described it to me, but do not buy into it. Surely, bankers and that sort want to look out for their own interests, but I don't believe that they actively try to wage "war" against the lower classes.

"If there is a class war – and there is – it is important that it should be handled with subtlety and skill. ... it is not freedom that Conservatives want; what they want is the sort of freedom that will maintain existing inequalities or restore lost ones."

Maurice Cowling, ‘The Present Position’, in Cowling (ed.), Conservative Essays (London: Cassell, 1978), p. 1, p. 9.

[mastershake16]

"If there is a class war – and there is – it is important that it should be handled with subtlety and skill. ... it is not freedom that Conservatives want; what they want is the sort of freedom that will maintain existing inequalities or restore lost ones."

Maurice Cowling, ‘The Present Position’, in Cowling (ed.), Conservative Essays (London: Cassell, 1978), p. 1, p. 9.

Interesting. I would say that Conservatives (I'm going to use this to mean the GOP) don't want inequalities just for the sake of inequality though. Inequality is a byproduct of their policies, which cater to their interests. I wouldn't call that a war though.

[RedSunRising]

##FF0000,

1) Highest prison population. Even if this is a FACT. I don't care. I just said multiple times I don't care about comparing the USSR with the U.S.


No you cant....The USSR had almost free housing and free health care so yeah you cant compare them.

[RedSunRising]

Interesting. I would say that Conservatives (I'm going to use this to mean the GOP) don't want inequalities just for the sake of inequality though. Inequality is a byproduct of their policies, which cater to their interests. I wouldn't call that a war though.

What do they want it for?

Freedom? :rolleyes:

[RedSunRising]

If I were to go to a new school, and as I entered the cafeteria there were 3 tables. One with all African Americans, one with all Caucasians, and one with all Hispanics. I would probably sit with the Caucasians. Not because I'm a racist, but because I have something in common with them.

Like what? The colour of your skin? I live with a girl from miles and miles away from my country and we have more in common than I do with most people from country. The idea that you have more in common with people because of their nation or race smacks of someone who is pretty superficial.

Ive been called a nationalist here...But wow, hello Mr White Nation nationalist!

[mastershake16]

Like what? The colour of your skin? I live with a girl and her kid from miles and miles away from my country and we have more in common than I do with most people from country. The idea that you have more in common with people because of their nation or race smacks of someone who is pretty superficial.

Ive been called a nationalist here...But wow, hello Mr White Nation nationalist!

/sigh.

Thats great you live with someone and you have something in common with them. I don't see how it applies, though.

If you were looking for a roommate, and you were a new immigrant from Ireland in the 1890's, are you telling me that if you saw a potential roommate that was from Ireland, you wouldn't feel compelled to room with them because you share something in common? Come on...

I never claimed that race/ethnicity was the only or most important factor but if that is all you know, then how is that a bad thing? Did you not read the part of my post about the Hispanic community I live in? Do you think they're "Hispanic nationalists" because they feel comfortable living with people they share things in common with?

Ridiculous.

If I a person were to DISCRIMINATE based on race/ethnicity then it would become a problem...


Accusing me of being a "White Nation nationalist" is absolutely absurd, and you have nothing to back that claim up with. Just because race or ethnicity is brought into the equation as something that people can have in common with others, does not make me a racist and a "White Nation nationalist".

Thats a problem here. People like to sling around serious and insulting terms like it was nothing.

[RedSunRising]

If you were looking for a roommate, and you were a new immigrant from Ireland in the 1890's, are you telling me that if you saw a potential roommate that was from Ireland, you wouldn't feel compelled to room with them because you share something in common? Come on....

Problem though is that you are not a recently arrived immigrant from bally-go-backwards in the middle of nowhere with fuck all education faced by a huge city that is pretty threatening.

[mastershake16]

What do they want it for?

Freedom? :rolleyes:

It, as in policies that promote their own interests?

Wealth and power, obviously...

[mastershake16]

Problem though is that you are not a recently arrived immigrant from bally-go-backwards in the middle of nowhere with fuck all education faced by a huge city that is pretty threatening.

You're taking an anecdote literally....haha come on.

Get on my level, and we'll continue.

[RadioRaheem84]

Interesting. I would say that Conservatives (I'm going to use this to mean the GOP) don't want inequalities just for the sake of inequality though. Inequality is a byproduct of their policies, which cater to their interests. I wouldn't call that a war though.

When they come in direct opposition to their interests they will fight it.

What do you think they're doing when they spend so much money and time funding think tanks to influence public policy?

Even conventional liberals believe in class warfare.

For fucks sake, whenever met with opposition to their policies, right wingers accuse other person of class warfare. The other person just gives in for fear of being red-baited.

[mastershake16]

When they come in direct opposition to their interests they will fight it.

What do you think they're doing when they spend so much money and time funding think tanks to influence public policy?

Even conventional liberals believe in class warfare.

For fucks sake, whenever met with opposition to their policies, right wingers accuse other person of class warfare. The other person just gives in for fear of being red-baited.

If you want to call making money at the expense of the lower classes "class warfare", then I'll say its going on.

[#FF0000]

##FF0000,

1) Highest prison population. Even if this is a FACT. I don't care. I just said multiple times I don't care about comparing the USSR with the U.S.
2) Even if that is fact as well, you fail to acknowledge numerous factors that would contribute to that, many of which are just human nature.

If I were to go to a new school, and as I entered the cafeteria there were 3 tables. One with all African Americans, one with all Caucasians, and one with all Hispanics. I would probably sit with the Caucasians. Not because I'm a racist, but because I have something in common with them.

1) Jus' sayin. Don't mean to compare US to USSR.
2) That's not what's happening and your reasoning is horrible anyway.

Anyway this is kind of a tangent and has nothing to do with the topic at hand

[Revolution starts with U]

If you want to call making money at the expense of the lower classes "class warfare", then I'll say its going on.

No, that's called capitalism. The class warfare comes around in the strike breaking, the anti working class legislation, and the cultural demonization of working people (lazy oafs who need leadership).

[#FF0000]

Interesting. I would say that Conservatives (I'm going to use this to mean the GOP) don't want inequalities just for the sake of inequality though. Inequality is a byproduct of their policies, which cater to their interests. I wouldn't call that a war though.

Class struggle is a result of different classes pursuing their own class' interests. It's not some conspiracy. No one ever said that.

[mastershake16]

Class struggle is a result of different classes pursuing their own class' interests. It's not some conspiracy. No one ever said that.

Seems reasonable then.

But I will not be called a "White Nation nationalist" and I stand by my reasoning on thought #2. Explain how it does not happen. I see it happen everyday.

[#FF0000]

Seems reasonable then.

But I will not be called a "White Nation nationalist" and I stand by my reasoning on thought #2. Explain how it does not happen. I see it happen everyday.

It happens because racism exists in our society and people are sort of taught to see people of the same skin color as an in-group or an out-group. The skin color bit isn't "natural", though.

But the reasoning is wrong and that's not what is happening.

[Yuppie Grinder]

While I probably agree with most members of revleft on this issue with their freedom-centric and workerist modes of thinking, I still think It'd be much more productive to ask this question on conservative political forums, rather than a place like revleft.

[Property Is Robbery]

Yeah I don't believe in benevolent dictators, hence my strong opposition against the state.


Look into Libertarian Socialism. Right now we are living under a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, and it's a very malevolent one indeed.

[Baseball]

The position seems to be quite prevalent with the political, academic and business leaders of yesteryear, as it is even today.

http://sanseverything.wordpress.com/2007/12/15/mises-and-the-merit-of-fascism/

The reason why I ask is after reading about William Randolph Hearst and comments by other leading industrialists, along with the above quoted Von Mises, that there was this perception that fascism (no matter how bad) was preferable to Communism/socialism.

Quote: "fascism will only come into existence in the United States when such movement becomes really necessary for the prevention of Communism".

- Hearst, quoted in Imperial San Fransisco by Gray A. Brechin pg. 235

Even reading Von Mises chapter on Fascism in his book Liberalism, you get this impression that most of the leading figures he associated with shared his view that fascism, while not despicable in their eyes, saved Europe from descending into Bolshevism.

This view seems largely prevalent today too and was the mantra of the Cold War, regardless if many of the nations subdued and given right wing juntas were not communist but nationalist, social democratic, socialist or liberal developmentalist.

I am not trying to pin fascism on right libertarians, but I am trying to figure out just what they think of fascism and would they opt for it over Communism/socialism if the red specter was hovering over their government?

The quote cited indicated that indeed Mises saw fascism as "despicable"; he called it "illiberal."

The problem which liberals faced during this time period is that they had no natural allies. They were surrounded by popular movements and parties who were declared enemies of liberalism (this includes not just Communists, Fascists and National Socialists, but also the Social Democrats). Liberals were basically trying to figure out "who is the least worse, when there are no other options"
Such a internal debate is scarcely a ringing endorsement of fascism.

But look at what the cited blogger concluded: Mises's support of Dollfus was proof that liberals cannot, in the final analysis, be considered stalwart defenders of freedom.
Yet the Dollfuss government was dealing with a situation where National Socialists and Communists were working to destroy it (and in some cases, working together), and to create their own little visions of a new Austria. In that instance, there was another option available for Mises and it was taken.

But for that blogger to draw his conclusion must mean that either he saw National Socialism in Austria as a step for freedom (which I doubt he does) or that he saw Communism (and in the early 30s is otherwise known as Stalinism) as a step for freedom (which is more likely).
At this point, who is the better guarantor of freedom-- the fellow who opposed both fascism and communism (Stalinism), or the fellow who was sympathetic to the latter?

[Revolution starts with U]

Hey, at least NaSo's and Stalinists will admit they don't give a shit about freedom. Libertarians have to lie and dance around the issue for the rest of their lives. Hence, Mises' fascism > socialism.

[RedSunRising]

Hey, at least NaSo's and Stalinists will admit they don't give a shit about freedom. Libertarians have to lie and dance around the issue for the rest of their lives. Hence, Mises' fascism > socialism.

I think its unfair to say that we dont give a shit about freedom just we recognize that well humanity is divided into classes, the freedom of one class is involves the repression of the other class's freedom.

[Thirsty Crow]

Interesting. I would say that Conservatives (I'm going to use this to mean the GOP) don't want inequalities just for the sake of inequality though. Inequality is a byproduct of their policies, which cater to their interests. I wouldn't call that a war though.
"Class war" is a rhetorically heightened expression. It's a metaphor, and not an announcement of real war going on along class lines.
But looking from here where I stand - it sure as hell resembles a war.

[khad]

Say hello to mastershake, tea partier. Give him a high-five for mucking around this long unrestricted.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/happy-birthday-thomas-t152985/index.html?p=2079109#post2079109


You think Jefferson himself ordered the those decisions? He didn't want to conquer the Indians.What he does in his spare time:

[00:39:16] <Mastershake16> http://i51.tinypic.com/15bq7k.png (http://www.anonym.to/?http://i51.tinypic.com/15bq7k.png)
[00:40:06] <Mastershake16> school project
[00:40:18] <Mastershake16> anything wrong with my grammar?
[00:40:24] <Mastershake16> correct it for me

http://i51.tinypic.com/15bq7k.png

[mastershake16]

Say hello to mastershake, tea partier. Give him a high-five for mucking around this long unrestricted.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/happy-birthday-thomas-t152985/index.html?p=2079109#post2079109

What he does in his spare time:

[00:39:16] <Mastershake16> http://i51.tinypic.com/15bq7k.png (http://www.anonym.to/?http://i51.tinypic.com/15bq7k.png)
[00:40:06] <Mastershake16> school project
[00:40:18] <Mastershake16> anything wrong with my grammar?
[00:40:24] <Mastershake16> correct it for me

http://i51.tinypic.com/15bq7k.png

Haha are you serious?. You're calling me a Tea Bagger because I showed some school work on the IRC? hahahahaha

Explain to me how that is even related to Teabaggerism at ALL!

Thomas Paine would roll in his grave if a tea partier claimed him as one of their own. The same goes for Jefferson.

If someone honestly believes that the poster, which was an ASSIGNED PROJECT with a specific rubric, has anything to do with the Tea Party, then they're an absolute idiot. Seriously. Pathetic. Do you think that poster was to be taken seriously? Its supposed to be humorous. I reference "T-Pain". Come on....


Khad, don't make a fool of yourself. That is such a lackluster attempt to troll and defame me based on your own political opinion and personal vendetta. What has your post added to the discussion? Do you even know what the Tea Party believes? Nothing I have ever said goes in line with Tea Party beliefs.
I can't believe I was actually BANNED FROM IRC by showing a friend a poster for school because thats somehow "reactionary". The man wrote a pamphlet on Agrarian Reform...


If you see me as a tea partier based on a mandatory and humorous school project, and a post saying happy birthday to Thomas Jefferson, then you're blinded by your own narrow mind.