Is Marxism still foremost, has Juche replaced it?

[hatzel]

Seriously, why has nobody arrested Kim Jong Il yet? Why are the people not rising up?

Yeah, why hasn't there been global revolution already? There must be something preventing the people from rising up and arresting all their statesmen, but I can't for the life of me think what it might be...:rolleyes:

[RGacky3]

Some people tried, now they are here (http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/world/dprk/dprk-hoeryong-camp.htm).

[Tomhet]

JucheDPRK that is not true,the GDR had rock bands,a free cultural trend and was much,much more progressive and successful than he DPRK,it means little.
Could you link me to some East German rock/metal/electronic??? would love to hear it.. :)

[Omsk]

Metal or electronic music was not to popular,rock was popular,alongside rock old style songs.I don't know of a specific website,but you could just google 'ostrock' and listen up to it

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Until the USSR dissolved the north was basically equal with the south, and before the Sino-Soviet split got under way it was actually better off.

That's just disingenuous.

At 1970, there was parity in terms of GDP per capita, but from the 70s onwards there was a steep, absolute decline in GDP per capita levels in the North. By 1991, the North was far behind the South.

To say that there was equality of living standards between the North and South in 1991 is simply not true.

[Ismail]

I now interrupt this thread to bring you searing Marxian analyses of the works of Kim Jong Il between two forum members, namely myself and Socialism or Barbarism:

Socialism or Barbarism: "Unfettered by any established theories or formulas"
Socialism or Barbarism: ...until we fettered ourselves with new dogmas, such as this lame shit i am writing here
Socialism or Barbarism: its just like
Socialism or Barbarism: "cover lack of ideas with flowery rhetoric and billions of adjectives"
Socialism or Barbarism: i mean goddam if a westerner like left some like
Socialism or Barbarism: goosebumps or some shit
Socialism or Barbarism: itd be like
Socialism or Barbarism: *korean reads it*
Socialism or Barbarism: THIS GUY IS THE BEST WRITER EVER
Ismail: he has 11 volumes
Ismail: of
Ismail: SELECTED
Ismail: WORKS
Ismail: Hoxha only had like, six volumes of selcted works
Ismail: and had like 70+ volumes of collected works
Ismail: so either DPRK numbers stuff differently, or uh, oh boy
Ismail: like, we're all afraid of nuclear war if we go to war
Ismail: but instead it's just like
Ismail: OH NO
Ismail: USA IS INVADING
Ismail: *tidal-wave of Kim Jong Il Collected Works across all of South Korea*
Ismail: *books go into ocean and ocean like, fucks up*
Ismail: *Entire world dies because no water because it's just literal waves of Kim Jong Il books*
Ismail: then pro-Juche guys go on RevLeft
Ismail: and are like
Ismail: HAH
Ismail: THE BRILLIANT THOUGHT OF KIM JONG IL
Ismail: LITERALLY DESTROYED IMPERIALISM
Socialism or Barbarism: lol

[RevLeft By Birth]

http://www.kcna.co.jp/item/2011/201107/news24/20110724-24ee.html


Pyongyang, July 24 (KCNA) -- The election of deputies to the provincial (municipal), city (district) and county people's assemblies of the DPRK was successfully held on Sunday.
According to data available from the Central Election Guidance Committee, 99.97 percent of voters except those on foreign tour or working in oceans participated in the election as of 18:00.
Those who were not able to go to the polling stations due to old age, illness, etc. cast their ballots into mobile ballot boxes.
All voters took part in the election with the revolutionary will to demonstrate the high spirit of Juche Korea making a leaping advance toward a thriving socialist nation and consolidate people's power under the Songun leadership of Kim Jong Il through the election.

Hmm, mobile ballot boxes, extremely high turnout. Both more inclusive election policies than even Cuba. Another victory for the people of the DPRK, despite all the naysaying and hope of failure by some social democrat revisionist s here.

[RevLeft By Birth]

According to your sources Kim Jong-Il scored 18 holes in one in game of golf.

Wrong... I'd like you to find any reliable source indicating this claim has been made. What did happen, is that in one round he happened to get multiple holes in one, but it's a game of chance and skill.


Seriously, why has nobody arrested Kim Jong Il yet? Why are the people not rising up?

Why don't the Venezuelan people rise up against Hugo Chavez for failing to arrest all the capitalists and working in cahoots with global oil companies??Why isn't Obama under arrest? These are things I would worry about far before even thinking of the arrest of Kim Jong Il.

[∞]

Wrong... I'd like you to find any reliable source indicating this claim has been made. What did happen, is that in one round he happened to get multiple holes in one, but it's a game of chance and skill.


That is still less likely than being propaganda.

[Libertador]

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2010/4/19/129161956908588576.gif
Purrlitariats of the world are not amused by your Juche.

[hatzel]

http://www.kcna.co.jp/item/2011/201107/news24/20110724-24ee.html
Pyongyang, July 24 (KCNA) -- The election of deputies to the provincial (municipal), city (district) and county people's assemblies of the DPRK was successfully held on Sunday.
According to data available from the Central Election Guidance Committee, 99.97 percent of voters except those on foreign tour or working in oceans participated in the election as of 18:00.
Those who were not able to go to the polling stations due to old age, illness, etc. cast their ballots into mobile ballot boxes.
All voters took part in the election with the revolutionary will to demonstrate the high spirit of Juche Korea making a leaping advance toward a thriving socialist nation and consolidate people's power under the Songun leadership of Kim Jong Il through the election.Hmm, mobile ballot boxes, extremely high turnout. Both more inclusive election policies than even Cuba. Another victory for the people of the DPRK, despite all the naysaying and hope of failure by some social democrat revisionist s here.

You haven't read this thread at all, have you? This kind of stuff has already been covered. Now, remind me...how many candidates did each voter have to choose between? Surely even a representative democracy would require that there is a choice, that the people get to pick between this or that candidate. Because if they don't get to pick, if the State itself declares who will run the country...well, are you familiar with the term 'totalitarian democracy'? :)

[RevLeft By Birth]

You haven't read this thread at all, have you? This kind of stuff has already been covered. Now, remind me...how many candidates did each voter have to choose between? Surely even a representative democracy would require that there is a choice, that the people get to pick between this or that candidate. Because if they don't get to pick, if the State itself declares who will run the country...well, are you familiar with the term 'totalitarian democracy'? :)

They had the option to accept or reject the candidates put forward by the democratic front for the reunification of the fatherland, IF a majority chose to reject any candidate then a new one would be put forth. I dont think this has ever happened but that is simply a sign that the political system of the DPRK is carefully built on consensus. Why this is so hard for you to understand is the real question most here are wondering...

[RGacky3]

They had the option to accept or reject the candidates put forward by the democratic front for the reunification of the fatherland, IF a majority chose to reject any candidate then a new one would be put forth. I dont think this has ever happened but that is simply a sign that the political system of the DPRK is carefully built on consensus. Why this is so hard for you to understand is the real question most here are wondering...

Do you REALLY believe that the DPRK has a funtioning democracy? Honestly.

[hatzel]

They had the option to accept or reject the candidates put forward by the democratic front for the reunification of the fatherland, IF a majority chose to reject any candidate then a new one would be put forth. I dont think this has ever happened but that is simply a sign that the political system of the DPRK is carefully built on consensus.

Oh yeah?


Why this is so hard for you to understand is the real question most here are wondering...

:laugh:

(The use of the :laugh:-smiley was intended to communicate that you have literally no idea what 'most here' think about anything, and it's laughable that you try to speak for 'most here,' particularly in this thread where 'most here' have been ripping into DPRK, and, in particular, its pitiful excuse for an 'democratic' 'electoral' system. Just so you know.)

And, to actually reply to something you've said:


IF a majority chose to reject any candidate then a new one would be put forth
And you don't think it's remotely strange that even if the people disapprove of the candidate hand-picked by the State (and we have already discussed in this thread why people don't do that, perhaps you should read from page 1), the State merely picks a new one? That is to say, it is impossible to elect a representative who wasn't chosen by the State itself. This strikes you as a fair, democratic system? A system in which only the State has the power to select potential candidates, in the process ensuring complete loyalty in government? This is your idea of "more inclusive election policies than even Cuba"? You think this system is "carefully built on consensus"?

Interesting...

[Bronco]

I find it hard to believe that the likes this guy can actually exist outside of North Korea. I know there are a few members on Revleft who sympathise with the DPRK but even then that's a far cry away from unquestionable faith in the "Dear Leader" and the Juche ideology and a genuine belief in the electoral statistics, no matter how far fetched the are. It just defies all logic and understanding.

[Olentzero]

Blargh! Zombie Juche thread! If ever there were a situation that did call for an icepick...

[RevLeft By Birth]

Oh yeah?



:laugh:

(The use of the :laugh:-smiley was intended to communicate that you have literally no idea what 'most here' think about anything, and it's laughable that you try to speak for 'most here,' particularly in this thread where 'most here' have been ripping into DPRK, and, in particular, its pitiful excuse for an 'democratic' 'electoral' system. Just so you know.)

And, to actually reply to something you've said:


And you don't think it's remotely strange that even if the people disapprove of the candidate hand-picked by the State (and we have already discussed in this thread why people don't do that, perhaps you should read from page 1), the State merely picks a new one? That is to say, it is impossible to elect a representative who wasn't chosen by the State itself. This strikes you as a fair, democratic system? A system in which only the State has the power to select potential candidates, in the process ensuring complete loyalty in government? This is your idea of "more inclusive election policies than even Cuba"? You think this system is "carefully built on consensus"?

Interesting...

Yes, I do. I think the problem here is that you seem to expect it to be a liberal european style democracy, but it is not. If you uphold liberal capitalist western model as the gold standard, where there are a bunch of candidates vying for support then I guess the DPRK fails that standard. The DPRK allows candidates to be chosen by the party, and then insures these candidates have mass approval, it mixes democracy with a firm assurance that the country remains on the path of socialism.

[RGacky3]

It mixes totalitarianism with basically forced rubber stamping, considering dissent will get you inprison, and people in prison don't vote

[RevLeft By Birth]

It mixes totalitarianism with basically forced rubber stamping, considering dissent will get you inprison, and people in prison don't vote

:(

That is a vicious slander

[pastradamus]

Marxism is a revolutionary ideological and philisophical belief which greatly altered and influenced world history for the last 125 years.

Juche is radical form of monarchist neo-fascism which is nothing more than a pretentious demigod tyrants attempt at brainwashing his subjects.

[RevLeft By Birth]

Marxism is a revolutionary ideological and philisophical belief which greatly altered and influenced world history for the last 125 years.

Juche is radical form of monarchist neo-fascism which is nothing more than a pretentious demigod tyrants attempt at brainwashing his subjects.

Juche is a development of Marxism which puts it on a scientific footing. Read more here:

http://www.korea-dpr.com/lib/104.pdf

[Thirsty Crow]

Juche is a development of Marxism which puts it on a scientific footing. Read more here:

http://www.korea-dpr.com/lib/104.pdf
So Marxism needed a doctrine based on the social and political conditions of absolute rule by inheritance/election on behalf of the leader to set it on a scientific footing?

Jeez, didn't know.

[Libertador]

Juche is a development of Marxism which puts it on a scientific footing. Read more here:

http://www.korea-dpr.com/lib/104.pdf Funny how Kimmy says that the Juche ideology is "...guaranteed by scientific accuracy..." but then doesn't actually show the statistics or cite any kind of social scientific research.

[RGacky3]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/marxism-still-foremost-t153699/revleft/smilies/sad.gif

That is a vicious slander

Really? Then show me the DPRK opposition, where are they?

Juche is just a book of musings and theorizing and really has not much to do with out the country is actually run.

[RevLeft By Birth]

So Marxism needed a doctrine based on the social and political conditions of absolute rule by inheritance/election on behalf of the leader to set it on a scientific footing?

Jeez, didn't know.

No, not absolute rule.

From "On Some Problems of the Ideological Foundation of Socialism" by Kim Jong Il:


The philosophical principle of Juche that man is the master of everything and decides
everything and the socio-historical principle of Juche, its embodiment, are based
on the scientific elucidation of the essential features of man.


The theory of reflection was an advance in opposing the
mystification of spirit, but it could not be a scientific clarification of the role
of consciousness. Marx made it clear that social consciousness is determined by social
beings and the former actively reacts to the latter, but he failed to clarify the
decisive role of ideological consciousness in man's activities

The Juche idea clarified for the first time that ideological consciousness plays
the decisive role in the activities of man. Man's activities are conducted under
certain material conditions and consciousness reflects the material world, but the
role of consciousness is not confined to reflecting the material world and reacting
to it. Consciousness determines all activities of man. Ideological consciousness is
the basis of all thinking and activities of man. It plays the decisive role in man's
cognitive activities and practice. Man has the consciousness of independence and for
this reason he volitionally understands the objective world and performs creative
activities.

On so called western style "Democracy" with "opposition" that so many here hold in such esteem:


The aftereffect of dogmatism and revisionism in several countries was that socialism
could not display its viability to the full; it gradually degenerated and obstacles
were created in socialist construction. Availing themselves of this opportunity, the
imperialists and reactionaries resorted to unscrupulous schemes against socialism
and, at their instigation and with their support, modern revisionists, asserting
"social democracy", openly adopted the policy of returning to capitalism
...
There cannot be anything like a "third road". The "third road", the road
of social democracy, is the road to capitalism.

[RevLeft By Birth]

Really? Then show me the DPRK opposition, where are they?

Juche is just a book of musings and theorizing and really has not much to do with out the country is actually run.

I meant the part about people being put in prison is a vicious slander. In the DPRK there is not a liberal social democracy with an opposition since it is a system built on consensus as I have explained before. Kim Jong Il correctly explained that social democracy with an opposition will lead to capitalism.

[agnixie]

I meant the part about people being put in prison is a vicious slander. In the DPRK there is not a liberal social democracy with an opposition since it is a system built on consensus as I have explained before. Kim Jong Il correctly explained that social democracy with an opposition will lead to capitalism.

Whereas Juche leads to capitalism without an opposition after establishing a party aristocracy, thus showing how much more efficient it is at class treason... wait. Seriously, you're either a very persistent troll or a very persistent idiot...

[∞]

You only follow Juche if you're a complete douche.

[RGacky3]

In the DPRK there is not a liberal social democracy with an opposition since it is a system built on consensus as I have explained before. Kim Jong Il correctly explained that social democracy with an opposition will lead to capitalism.

Basically, if people have another option, they would'nt choose Kim.


I meant the part about people being put in prison is a vicious slander.

ok,
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/05/world/asia/05korea.html?_r=1
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/10/AR2008121003855.html
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/05/04/north.korea.amnesty/
http://www.hrnk.org/download/The_Hidden_Gulag.pdf
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/19/AR2009071902178.html

I can get more, there is plenty of proof of political prisoners en masse being sent to prison camps, its pretty hard for you to argue this, unless you have your head stuck in the sand, which it seams like you do.

[pastradamus]

Juche is a development of Marxism which puts it on a scientific footing. Read more here:

http://www.korea-dpr.com/lib/104.pdf


No form of Marxism is responsible for a famine that occured in the early 1990's (which wiped out about 1 million people) whilst the "dear leader " continued to drive around in newly purchased sports cars and watch holywood cinema on his newly-installed home theatre. No member of the jung-il dynasty has the moral integrity, class-consciousness or intellect to ever make a decent scientific developement with regards to Marxism.

It brings a whole new meaning to the phrase "Nero fiddled as Rome burned".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ6E3cShcVU

[hatzel]

It brings a whole new meaning to the phrase "Nero fiddled as Rome burned".

With that in mind, I suggest that we rename Juche 'Neroan socialism' and posit it as a rival to Caesarean socialism, and then everybody can have heated arguments over which Roman emperor they like best. This would function as an ironic dig aimed at all those who consider debates about which 19th century Russian politician was the most awesome to be of great contemporary importance, by drawing it to its inevitable, if not absurd, conclusion :)

EDIT: come to think of it, that's probably exactly what Mussolini and his mates would do on their forums :tt2:

[Commissar Rykov]

Well this thread has converted me into the wonderful ideology of the Immortal God-Emperor of Mankind Kim Jung-Il. I will now buy a nice wig, jumpsuit and waddle around screaming, "Save me Dear Leader!" Hail all Glorious Juche!:D