Kurdistan

[Pacsta]

A project of the western imperialism, eventually looks pathetic, i wonder how they will take regions of Syria, Iraq, Turkey and Iran then establish an country.

[red cat]

The Turkish state itself is the number one agent of western imperialism in Turkey. The demands of the Kurdish people are correct and just.

[Devrim]

The Turkish state itself is the number one agent of western imperialism in Turkey.




The Turkish state is obviously imperialist, and has conducted a barbaric campaign against Kurds in Turkey. The fact that the Kurdish parties in Northern Iraq are clearly within the US sphere, and that the PKK attempted to cosy up to the US, doesn't change the facts.

Devrim

[red cat]

The Turkish state is obviously imperialist, and has conducted a barbaric campaign against Kurds in Turkey.

I would argue that it is expansionist. Anyways, that won't change the fact who is allied with imperialism at least.


The fact that the Kurdish parties in Northern Iraq are clearly within the US sphere, and that the PKK attempted to cosy up to the US, doesn't change the facts.

Devrim

I was referring to the Kurdish masses, not the PKK.

[Devrim]

I was referring to the Kurdish masses, not the PKK.

And I was referring to the OP who has a picture of Mustafa Kemal as his icon, lists his organisation as 'Atatürk Youth', and obviously is a Turkish nationalist.

Devrim

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

The Turkish state itself is the number one agent of western imperialism in Turkey. The demands of the Kurdish people are correct and just.

Agreed. It is strange that the needs of the Kurds gets less attention than other struggles. They are the biggest nationality in the world without an independent state.

[Pacsta]

Turkey is not imperialist, Turkey supports imperialist movements just like every NATO country.

Kurdish people are pawn of the USA, they trying to get some countries such as Iraq, Syria, Iran and Turkey, already USA is trying to stop these countries.

it shows everything.

[mosfeld]

Turkey is not imperialist, Turkey supports imperialist movements just like every NATO country.

Kurdish people are pawn of the USA, they trying to get some countries such as Iraq, Syria, Iran and Turkey, already USA is trying to stop these conutries.

it shows everything.

Typical Kemalite fascist sentiment... How are the Kurdish people pawns of the USA?

[black magick hustla]

Turkey is not imperialist, Turkey supports imperialist movements just like every NATO country.

Kurdish people are pawn of the USA, they trying to get some countries such as Iraq, Syria, Iran and Turkey, already USA is trying to stop these countries.

it shows everything.
to hell with kemal. he was responsable for the murder of so many communists, fuck that guy

[Red Future]

Is the PKK still Marxist-Leninist?

[gorillafuck]

Turkey is not imperialist, Turkey supports imperialist movements just like every NATO country.

Kurdish people are pawn of the USA, they trying to get some countries such as Iraq, Syria, Iran and Turkey, already USA is trying to stop these countries.Turkish fascists are fascists.

[Roach]

Do you at least indentify yourself as an anti-capitalist, Pacsta? And what are your views on the Armenian Genocide? Are you sure you are not a Troll?

[RedSunRising]

A project of the western imperialism, eventually looks pathetic, i wonder how they will take regions of Syria, Iraq, Turkey and Iran then establish an country.

The Kurdish nation is not a project of "western Imperialism". They are a people who has suffered extreme national oppression. For you to come from nation who's state launched a near genocidal war against them and call their nationhood a pathetic project is sickening.

[RedSunRising]

to hell with kemal. he was responsable for the murder of so many communists, fuck that guy

At least we can agree on that.

[RedSunRising]

Turkey is not imperialist, Turkey supports imperialist movements just like every NATO country.

Kurdish people are pawn of the USA, they trying to get some countries such as Iraq, Syria, Iran and Turkey, already USA is trying to stop these countries.

it shows everything.

No it does not show everything. The TKP/ML supports Kurdish self-determination. Are they now also yankee tools? The fact that Turkey is a member of NATO, a member of an Imperialist alliance would suggest that they are Imperialist, whatever the populist sloganeering. Given what the Kurdish people have been through at the hands of the Turkish and Iraqi states the fact that they would look for allies where they can is no surprise.

[RedSunRising]

Is the PKK still Marxist-Leninist?

No. And we can question whether they were ever Marxist-Leninist genuinely even though they contained genuine Communists undoubtably. In situations of grave national oppression middle class nationalists will wrap the red flag around them, but in the times that we live in the middle class though they can strike strong blows against Imperialism cannot overcome it. National Liberation struggles not under the guidance of genuine working class vanguard parties are doomed to failure.

[Pacsta]

imperialist powers always secretly supports kurdish terror networks. you faggots are fake e-revolutionaries that who supports usa.

[gorillafuck]

No. And we can question whether they were ever Marx-Leninist genuinely even though they contained genuine Communists undoubtably. In situations of grave national oppression middle class nationalists will wrap the red flag around them, but in the times that we live in the middle class though they can strike strong blows against Imperialism cannot overcome it. National Liberation struggles not under the guidance of genuine working class vanguard parties are doomed to failure.There have been successful natl. liberation movements in the past that were not "working class vanguard parties".

[RedSunRising]

There have been successful natl. liberation movements in the past that were not "working class vanguard parties".

Yes they have been sucessful up to point, to various points, but they still end up tied into neo-colonial relations, and often progressive governments placed in power by national liberation struggles up victims of coups (Algeria and the Congo being two examples).

[Rafiq]

Inb4 ban and trash thread

[Ismail]

imperialist powers always secretly supports kurdish terror networks. you faggots are fake e-revolutionaries that who supports usa.The Soviets tended to back Kurdish independence movements as well.

What is your opinion of the Kurdish people? I know a lot of Turks consider them to be "mountain Turks." Do you agree with this definition?

[RedSunRising]

imperialist powers always secretly supports kurdish terror networks. you faggots are fake e-revolutionaries that who supports usa.

Oh shit. So what if I was I gay?

[Tim Finnegan]

imperialist powers always secretly supports kurdish terror networks. you faggots are fake e-revolutionaries that who supports usa.
Fuck off, reactionary.

[DaringMehring]

Glad to see that even the "anti-imperialist" crowd doesn't buy into this guy's BS line about supporting the Turkish regime to contain western Imperialism. What a bunch of crap. The Kurdish people have been brutally oppressed; when I talked to a random Kurd, I found he supported the Kurdish revolutionaries without any shame and could give you a hundred good reasons why.

The catch -- this guy was from Iran. I hope our "anti-imperialist" crowd would also support the Kurdish revolutionaries of Iran, not hypocritically say they are justified in Turkey but not in Iran, due to their love affair (gag) with Ahmadinejad.

As for "pasca," the guy is garbage with his chauvinism and homophobia. Turkish state has murdered so many revolutionaries from Gezmis to Kaypakkaya. Fuck them and fuck him. Long live the socialist revolution in Turkey!

[Devrim]

Typical Kemalite fascist sentiment...

Kemalists are obviously not fascists if the word is to have any meaning at all. The main Kemalist party the CHP is a 'Socialist International' party. There are real fascists in Turkey, such as the MHP, and BBP. Kemalism is a massively powerful ideology in Turkey (in my opinion a total reactionary one), which is supported by many workers who consider themselves to be socialists.


How are the Kurdish people pawns of the USA?

I think if you look at the Kurdish nationalist parties in Northern Iraq, it is quite clear how Kurdish nationalism has been used by the US. In Turkey the PKK went through a period where it actively sought the support of the US though it was eventually rebuked by Obhama. The PKK was armed by the US through PJAK, its Iranian branch. This is all well documented.


Is the PKK still Marxist-Leninist?

It has been many years since the PKK has even claimed to be a Marxist organisation.


The Kurdish nation is not a project of "western Imperialism". They are a people who has suffered extreme national oppression. For you to come from nation who's state launched a near genocidal war against them and call their nationhood a pathetic project is sickening.

I agree that for Turks to support the Turkish state in its wars in the South East and Northern Iraq is sickening. Nevertheless that does not change the fact that Kurdish nationalism has been a pawn of the major and regional powers.


The Soviets tended to back Kurdish independence movements as well.

The Soviets too played their imperialist games in the region.


What is your opinion of the Kurdish people? I know a lot of Turks consider them to be "mountain Turks." Do you agree with this definition?

Nobody has said this for a very long time. It used to be that it was illegal in Turkey to even refer to yourself as a Kurd. The term 'mountain Turk' was a part of denying that this ethnic identity even existed. Although the Turkish state continues its bloody war in the South-East I doubt anybody would continue to use that term today.


No it does not show everything. The TKP/ML supports Kurdish self-determination. Are they now also yankee tools? The fact that Turkey is a member of NATO, a member of an Imperialist alliance would suggest that they are Imperialist, whatever the populist sloganeering. Given what the Kurdish people have been through at the hands of the Turkish and Iraqi states the fact that they would look for allies where they can is no surprise.

Of course it is no surprise. It is in the nature of nationalist movements to end up as tools of rival powers. Over the years, Kurdish the various Kurdish nationalist Parties have received support from all of the regional powers, even Turkey was at one point in alliance with the Iraqi Kurdish parties, as well of course the major powers.


Glad to see that even the "anti-imperialist" crowd doesn't buy into this guy's BS line about supporting the Turkish regime to contain western Imperialism. What a bunch of crap. The Kurdish people have been brutally oppressed; when I talked to a random Kurd, I found he supported the Kurdish revolutionaries without any shame and could give you a hundred good reasons why.

The catch -- this guy was from Iran. I hope our "anti-imperialist" crowd would also support the Kurdish revolutionaries of Iran, not hypocritically say they are justified in Turkey but not in Iran, due to their love affair (gag) with Ahmadinejad.

Such is the nature of so called 'anti-imperialism' today.

Devrim

[PhoenixAsh]

I have serious trouble with OP....imperialism and homobhobic language being the foremost...so I am just going to ignore him as a trol for now.

But I also have some serious issues with some arguments here.

There is at leats some tacit acceptance in many arguments that imperialism and alligning with them is right depending on who it benefits. And that is something I am sure we should strongly reject as a sliding slope.

The claim for Kurdish independence is not wrong per se...but its flirting with imperialist powers to gain that independence is. Opression does not legitimise imperialist intervention and the imperialist forces pretty much use these claims to establish hegemony and indeed use it to break the backbone of competing countries.

But I am sure we are all well aware of that.

[RedSunRising]

Kemalists are obviously not fascists if the word is to have any meaning at all. The main Kemalist party the CHP is a 'Socialist International' party. There are real fascists in Turkey, such as the MHP, and BBP. Kemalism is a massively powerful ideology in Turkey (in my opinion a total reactionary one), which is supported by many workers who consider themselves to be socialists.

Historically though Kemalism contained sub-rational psuedo-mythical elements ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihal_Ats%C4%B1z ), violent opposition to communism, whorship of the state and extreme national chauvinism as witnessed in the ethnic cleansing of Armenians and Greeks (which Kemalists today whitewash over in the same way they whitewash over their state's actions in occupied Kurdistan), so calling it at least proto-fascist I think is fair. Hysterical Anti-Americanism, as if the USA was the fountain of all evil is also typical of many modern fascist movements. Also note the way comrades here were refered to as faggots by the Kemalist (though in itself this isnt proof of fascism).

The word socialist which means someone who wishes all the means of production and disturbution should be in the hands of society as a whole is very much abused in the world today and has been for a long time to describe people who do not have that goal, and used by people who do not have that goal to self describe themselves. It has become almost meaningless.

[Devrim]

so calling it at least proto-fascist I think is fair.

You could make a good argument that Kemal's Turkey was fascist. However, I don't really think that Kemalism today can be called fascist if the word is to have any meaning today and is not just a word people throw around at people.


Historically though Kemalism contained sub-rational psuedo-mythical elements ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihal_Ats%C4%B1z )

Nihal Atsız was very influential on the thinking of Turkish fascists, but he was a fervent opponent of Kemalism.


Also note the way comrades here were refered to as faggots by the Kemalist (though in itself this isnt proof of fascism).

Not by a long way.


The word socialist which means someone who wishes all the means of production and disturbution should be in the hands of society as a whole is very much abused in the world today and has been for a long time to describe people who do not have that goal, and used by people who do not have that goal to self describe themselves. It has become almost meaningless.

As has the term 'fascist'.

Devrim

[RedSunRising]

Nihal Atsız was very influential on the thinking of Turkish fascists, but he was a fervent opponent of Kemalism.


Why did he oppose Kemalism?

[Devrim]

Why did he oppose Kemalism?

He thought that it was allied to the communists.

Devrim