Motivation to work

[Skooma Addict]

In whatever form of socialism/communism/anarchism you support, how are workers going to be motivated to be productive?

[Lord Testicles]

So they can survive and have something to consume?

u6XAPnuFjJc

[Sadena Meti]

I qualify as Lumpenproletariat right now, and am not really ashamed of it. "Flotsam of society." Not working, not accomplishing anything, fucking around, having fun, not contributing to society in any way. But even I have the innate desire to be productive, to get a proper job and use the formidable skills I have. I need a challenge, and arguing on RevLeft isn't doing the trick. Yet I stay here because I occasionally meet people near, at, and even above my intelligence level. Rare but they are here.

P.S. I used to be a proud cubicle proletarian.

[Skooma Addict]

So they can survive and have something to consume?


Well what payment methods would there be? Otherwise I just won't be productive and ill simply leach off the productivity of others. This opinion would be widespread.

[Skooma Addict]

I qualify as Lumpenproletariat right now, and am not really ashamed of it. "Flotsam of society." Not working, not accomplishing anything, fucking around, having fun, not contributing to society in any way. But even I have the innate desire to be productive, to get a proper job and use the formidable skills I have. I need a challenge, and arguing on RevLeft isn't doing the trick. Yet I stay here because I occasionally meet people near, at, and even above my intelligence level. Rare but they are here.

P.S. I used to be a proud cubicle proletarian.

Wrong Thread?

[MarxSchmarx]

In the form of capitalism that you have now, how do we motivate people like Paris Hilton or the Queen of England to be productive?

[Sadena Meti]

Wrong Thread?

No, for I said that even I, a Lumpen, have the innate desire to be productive, to get a proper job and use the formidable skills I have. Work is desirable in and of itself, even when needs are taken care of.

[Terminator X]

Imagine if you liked your job. You'd want to do it every day, right?

[Sadena Meti]

Imagine if you liked your job. You'd want to do it every day, right?
Even if your job was only so-so I think you'd want to do it in order to do something, to feel productive.

[Skooma Addict]

In the form of capitalism that you have now, how do we motivate people like Paris Hilton or the Queen of England to be productive?

Well I don't support the Royal Family, and its not like it is vital for the existence of capitalism. Although yes there will be a very very small fraction of the population that can live completely and comfortable off their ancestors money. However, this cannot last forever. Eventually someone down the line will have to do something productive with the money.

[Skooma Addict]

Imagine if you liked your job. You'd want to do it every day, right?

How would you get everyone to like their job? Also, even still there would need to be incentives to be productive. Liking your job helps but it isn't enough to base an economies productivity incentives on.

[Terminator X]

Well what payment methods would there be?

Labor credits of some sort to start, but in the higher level of communism (i.e. post-scarcity society), currency would cease to be of use.

[bcbm]

who cares? bosses worry about productivity, not "workers" (class won't exist in communist society there will be no working class only humanity-for-itself). if they want things they will figure out how to make them if they don't feel like doing it they won't and something else will happen

[Sword and Shield]

In whatever form of socialism/communism/anarchism you support, how are workers going to be motivated to be productive?

Cause if you don't earn wages, you starve and die...

[bcbm]

thats capitalism, not communism

[Dumb]

How would you get everyone to like their job? Also, even still there would need to be incentives to be productive. Liking your job helps but it isn't enough to base an economies productivity incentives on.

Did you watch the RSA video? Incentives hurt productivity.

[Ele'ill]

Cause if you don't earn wages, you starve and die...

There will be no wages.

[Terminator X]

How would you get everyone to like their job? Also, even still there would need to be incentives to be productive. Liking your job helps but it isn't enough to base an economies productivity incentives on.

First, you need to drop this obsession with incentive and motivation. Once the profit motive of capitalism is removed, the motivation to work will be based more on enjoyment and providing for one's self and family. You don't contribute to society, you don't have access to goods and services, it's that simple. This is why I can't figure out why conservatives and right-wingers harp on this "lazy socialist" myth, when in fact the ideology is very clearly worker-driven. Why capitalists are OK with CEOs sitting in an office and doing nothing is beyond me. Why don't you raise those questions instead?

[Dumb]

There will be no wages.

I feel like there should be a "...BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!" after that line.

[MarxSchmarx]

Originally Posted by MarxSchmarx http://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=2089606#post2089606)
In the form of capitalism that you have now, how do we motivate people like Paris Hilton or the Queen of England to be productive? Well I don't support the Royal Family, and its not like it is vital for the existence of capitalism. Although yes there will be a very very small fraction of the population that can live completely and comfortable off their ancestors money. However, this cannot last forever. Eventually someone down the line will have to do something productive with the money.

I wouldn't call depositing your great-great-grandfather's check in a bank and waiting for the 5% interest payment every year terribly productive. There is no reason why this can't be done in perpetuity under capitalism - well, except a worker's expropriation of the means of production of course!

[Zav]

Well what payment methods would there be? Otherwise I just won't be productive and ill simply leach off the productivity of others. This opinion would be widespread.
Satisfaction, respect, and access to the produced goods that an individual probably couldn't make seem like pretty good payment to me. Those that aren't productive simply won't get these. It is possible to live completely isolated, but it isn't easy.

[Sword and Shield]

There will be no wages.

In your anarchist wet dreams. Back in the real socialist world, we put the worker (person who works) first. Not the capitalists (people who have a monopoly on the means of production) or the lumpen degenerates (people who can work but don't and leech off of others).

[Revolution starts with U]

Well what payment methods would there be? Otherwise I just won't be productive and ill simply leach off the productivity of others. This opinion would be widespread.
A capitalist does that anyway. Entrepreneurs are productive. Capitalists are just sponging off an archaic system (ownership).



Well I don't support the Royal Family, and its not like it is vital for the existence of capitalism. Although yes there will be a very very small fraction of the population that can live completely and comfortable off their ancestors money. However, this cannot last forever. Eventually someone down the line will have to do something productive with the money.
Sure, sure. Maybe. Or you just let the company continue to run itself. Maybe produce a few innovations, due to that fancy education so easy to afford.


How would you get everyone to like their job? Also, even still there would need to be incentives to be productive. Liking your job helps but it isn't enough to base an economies productivity incentives on.
This sounds like it belongs in the slavery era. They thought the same thing, but instead of just poorness, they thought workers should be whipped as well.

[Terminator X]

In your anarchist wet dreams. Back in the real socialist world, we put the worker (person who works) first. Not the capitalists (people who have a monopoly on the means of production) or the lumpen degenerates (people who can work but don't and leech off of others).

You realize that abolition of wages is a Marxist concept too, right?


Originally written by Karl Marx
Instead of the conservative motto: “A fair day's wage for a fair day's work!” they ought to inscribe on their banner the revolutionary watchword: “Abolition of the wages system!"

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1865/value-price-profit/ch03.htm

[Revolution starts with U]

First, you need to drop this obsession with incentive and motivation. Once the profit motive of capitalism is removed, the motivation to work will be based more on enjoyment and providing for one's self and family. You don't contribute to society, you don't have access to goods and services, it's that simple. This is why I can't figure out why conservatives and right-wingers harp on this "lazy socialist" myth, when in fact the ideology is very clearly worker-driven. Why capitalists are OK with CEOs sitting in an office and doing nothing is beyond me. Why don't you raise those questions instead?

Unfortunately they are not sitting around and doing nothing. They are aggressively trying to figure out how best to leech productivity off the worker for the cheapest cost. And they're good at it. And that's why they get the big bucks. :cursing:

[Dumb]

Originally written by Karl Marx
Instead of the conservative motto: “A fair day's wage for a fair day's work!” they ought to inscribe on their banner the revolutionary watchword: “Abolition of the wages system!"

I love how you even went to the trouble of including "Originally written by Karl Marx". :lol:

Anyway, Skooma, in response to your general line of inquiry, I ask you this: why do people do volunteer work? Why does anybody work on open source software? Why do retirees keep looking for something productive to do with their time?

[Sword and Shield]

You realize that abolition of wages is a Marxist concept too, right?

He didn't say what it should be replaced by.

Besides, I am not a Marxist (and neither was Marx).

[Sadena Meti]

He didn't say what it should be replaced by.

Besides, I am not a Marxist (and neither was Marx).

In Capital he does at one point mention labor vouchers. He then says these too will be abolished, and fails to continue. Perhaps it was something he was still working on when he died. Something to be put in Capital 3 or who knows 4.

[Terminator X]

He didn't say what it should be replaced by.

Besides, I am not a Marxist (and neither was Marx).

Your post seemed to imply that you considered abolition of wages a strictly anarchist concept. Also, what exactly is the "real socialist world"? You're not a Marxist or anarchist, so I'm curious what ideology you're basing this on.

Also, the "I am not a Marxist" misquote is a tired, boring canard that has been dismissed thoroughly on this site and through countless other sources.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Is it just me, or are capitalists inherently lazy? They think that without the profit motive nobody would work?

I'd love to be a paramedic, but not in a capitalist society. It's too much, for too little.

In a communist society my ideal job would be paramedic.

But apparently capitalists will sit around and do shit all...

[Sadena Meti]

I'd love to be a paramedic, but not in a capitalist society. It's too much, for too little.

Tech college courses and some hours doing ride along. That's too much for your dream job. A year of part time study and then 5 months full-time study and practice.

Emergency Medical Technician - Basic - 4 credits


Emergency Medical Technician - Intermediate Technician - 3 credits


Paramedic Technician - 66-credit associate degree (Full time, 22 weeks).

[Lord Testicles]

Well what payment methods would there be? Otherwise I just won't be productive and ill simply leach off the productivity of others. This opinion would be widespread.

None. You'll get bored eventually.

If your vision does happen to be true and the opinion you have stated is widespread, then what will you leach off? Other peoples lack of productivity?

[Skooma Addict]

None. You'll get bored eventually.

If your vision does happen to be true and the opinion you have stated is widespread, then what will you leach off? Other peoples lack of productivity? What so we just hope that farmers get bored quickly enough. To answer your question, yes. Eventually people would start dying as the population couldn't be supported.

[Lord Testicles]

What so we just hope that farmers get bored quickly enough. To answer your question, yes. Eventually people would start dying as the population couldn't be supported.

Hey, at least we'd be choosing to go extinct, I'd rather that any day of the week than be coerced into work under the threat of starvation or homelessness. Seriously though, if you were sitting in your house starving and so were your neighbours, would you;

A) Sit there and wait for meals on wheels to turn up?

or

B) Organise yourselves and go find\grown some food on those fields that aren't owned by anyone any more?

[#FF0000]

>>why will workers be motivated in socialism?
>>implying workers are motivated in capitalism.

[#FF0000]

He didn't say what it should be replaced by.

Besides, I am not a Marxist (and neither was Marx).

Whatever you are, you're wrong and nothing will change that no matter how many quotes you drag out of context

[Skooma Addict]

Hey, at least we'd be choosing to go extinct, I'd rather that any day of the week than be coerced into work under the threat of starvation or homelessness. Seriously though, if you were sitting in your house starving and so were your neighbours, would you;

A) Sit there and wait for meals on wheels to turn up?

or

B) Organise yourselves and go find\grown some food on those fields that aren't owned by anyone any more?

B couldn't support the population.

[Lord Testicles]

B couldn't support the population.

The point is that people are fully capable of organising themselves and they are capable of recognising their own interests. So I really don't see were the trouble lies.

I really can't see the world falling apart because you've removed a couple of lazy parasites who hoard the worlds wealth from the equation. After all it's the capitalist class that stops us from being able to produce to our fullest capacity because they care more for somethings exchange value than it's practical application.

[Dumb]

B couldn't support the population.

You don't think workers are capable of organising themselves productively?

[NewSocialist]

In whatever form of socialism/communism/anarchism you support, how are workers going to be motivated to be productive?

Read: http://www.zcommunications.org/zparecon/pareconlac.htm

[hatzel]

Besides, I am not a MarxistYo yo yo what's with the Stalin avatar, bro? :confused:

[Thirsty Crow]

Cause if you don't earn wages, you starve and die...
Communism: where wage labour still exists, but the Central Committee manages to mystify the fact!

[hatzel]

Communism: where wage labour still exists, but the Central Committee manages to mystify the fact!Just you wait. In 50 years RevLeft will be full of Bud Struggleists parroting exactly that line...

[Obs]

He didn't say what it should be replaced by.

Besides, I am not a Marxist (and neither was Marx).

What the hell are you then? I think you'll find that Marxist-Leninist theory (of which Stalin, as seen in your avatar, was a proponent) advocates the end of wage labour, which is a defining feature of capitalism.

[Sword and Shield]

What the hell are you then? I think you'll find that Marxist-Leninist theory (of which Stalin, as seen in your avatar, was a proponent) advocates the end of wage labour, which is a defining feature of capitalism.

I support Stalin, but consider Marxism-Leninism to be incomplete. You as a Marxist-Leninist have to admit that Marx wasn't right about everything, and needed improvement by Lenin. I believe Marxism-Leninism is similarly incomplete.

Besides, Marx was never clear that there wouldn't be some sort of pay under communism. He only said that the wage labour system should be abolished.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Tech college courses and some hours doing ride along. That's too much for your dream job. A year of part time study and then 5 months full-time study and practice.

Emergency Medical Technician - Basic - 4 credits


Emergency Medical Technician - Intermediate Technician - 3 credits


Paramedic Technician - 66-credit associate degree (Full time, 22 weeks).


Where I live there's a long wait list for training, and for jobs.

And quite frankly, i m gonna have a kid, and working nights a lot doesn't seem too appealing when I'm making like $50 000 a year tops.

[hatzel]

I support Stalin, but consider Marxism-Leninism to be incomplete. You as a Marxist-Leninist have to admit that Marx wasn't right about everything, and needed improvement by Lenin. I believe Marxism-Leninism is similarly incomplete.Obs (as a ML) is a Marxist. If you're talking about ML being an incomplete theory, yet support Stalin, chances are you're a Marxist. Or an idiot. In this case my gut feeling is the latter, but I dunno...:confused:

But I don't want to derail this thread talking about mindless twaddle that I don't even care about. Just go and read a book or something, or just tell us how your ideology isn't Marxism, which you avoided doing the first time round.

[Sword and Shield]

Obs (as a ML) is a Marxist. If you're talking about ML being an incomplete theory, yet support Stalin, chances are you're a Marxist. Or an idiot. In this case my gut feeling is the latter, but I dunno...:confused:

I don't have to agree 100% with Stalin's Marxist Leninist ideology to support him.


But I don't want to derail this thread talking about mindless twaddle that I don't even care about. Just go and read a book or something, or just tell us how your ideology isn't Marxism, which you avoided doing the first time round.

It's obvious how my ideology isn't Marxism. I support Lenin's theory of imperialism, which isn't a part of Marxism. There may be other differences, such as my opinion on pay for work. In any case, I'm non-doctrinaire.

[MarxSchmarx]

>>why will workers be motivated in socialism?
>>implying workers are motivated in capitalism.


The whip of death by starvation/exposure does manage to motivate not a few people to do a lot of personally and socially meaningless activities they'd rather not do. According to capitalists, without whips the social order will collapse. It's not like we haven't heard this schpeal before somewhere...

[RGacky3]

How would you get everyone to like their job? Also, even still there would need to be incentives to be productive. Liking your job helps but it isn't enough to base an economies productivity incentives on.

Part of your workday would be doing a job you like, and part of it would be doing chores that everyone has to share .... How do chores get done at home? or in apartment complexes?

[zpull]

In whatever form of socialism/communism/anarchism you support, how are workers going to be motivated to be productive?

How are the ones with capital going to be motivated (or even better, guaranteed) to provide work? They are in business to make income, not provide work.

[Skooma Addict]

Part of your workday would be doing a job you like, and part of it would be doing chores that everyone has to share .... How do chores get done at home? or in apartment complexes?

You might be able to run a household like that, but you can't run a country with millions of people like that. You heed a way to motivate workers.

[Revolution starts with U]

Why?

[Dr Mindbender]

In whatever form of socialism/communism/anarchism you support, how are workers going to be motivated to be productive?

Personally I am opposed to the 'make everyone share the chores' answer, because all it take is for one person to refuse to do his or her chores then it becomes necessary to start frogmarching everyone to their chores at gunpoint.

Thats why contemporary socialism cannot answer the 'freeloader' question.

The key is to automate the jobs that NO-ONE wants to do, then distribute and reappropriate the other jobs to the specfic people that want them.

Simple.

[Tim Finnegan]

You might be able to run a household like that, but you can't run a country with millions of people like that. You heed a way to motivate workers.
I didn't realise that countries were organised as a single units of produtction. :confused:

[Dr Mindbender]

I didn't realise that countries were organised as a single units of produtction. :confused:

I guess theres an argument that a theoretical communist or socialist nation IS a single unit of production because all industries within it are owned by the same entity.

[Baseball]

First, you need to drop this obsession with incentive and motivation. Once the profit motive of capitalism is removed, the motivation to work will be based more on enjoyment and providing for one's self and family. You don't contribute to society, you don't have access to goods and services, it's that simple. This is why I can't figure out why conservatives and right-wingers harp on this "lazy socialist" myth, when in fact the ideology is very clearly worker-driven. Why capitalists are OK with CEOs sitting in an office and doing nothing is beyond me. Why don't you raise those questions instead?

Maybe these CEO's like what they are doing as it gives them "enjoyment" and provides for "one's self and family"?
But despite this, you seem to require that the value of the labor of the CEO be analyzed and weighed in a capitalist community. There would seem to be no reason why only the labor of a CEO should be weighed this way, in a capitalist community/ Their enjoyment of their labor is not considered a factor in measuring the value of the work.

Yet in a socialist community, enjoyment of labor is the final factor in measuring value of work. Weighing the value of the job does not seem relevent. Further explanation is warranted. B

[Baseball]

You don't think workers are capable of organising themselves productively?

The issue is more along the lines of determining whether the organization designed is productive.

[Baseball]

Part of your workday would be doing a job you like, and part of it would be doing chores that everyone has to share .... How do chores get done at home? or in apartment complexes?

In households, usually parents TELL kids what to do. Scarcely a model for a free community. But since that is the stated requirement...

In apartment complexes, people are hired to do work.

Why split your labor up in such a way? Does it truly make productive sense to have less skilled labor doing a job than more skilled labor (which would seem to be the result of your suggestion)?

[RGacky3]

In households, usually parents TELL kids what to do.

So do Bosses ...


In apartment complexes, people are hired to do work.


In a lot of them they use cooperative work, i.e. they cycle it amung the tennants.


Why split your labor up in such a way? Does it truly make productive sense to have less skilled labor doing a job than more skilled labor (which would seem to be the result of your suggestion)?

Thats not what I'm suggesting, I'm suggesting you work it out as a community democratically.

[Thug Lessons]

You might be able to run a household like that, but you can't run a country with millions of people like that. You heed a way to motivate workers.

There's no reason to accept this assumption. There's nothing inherent about the modern family that makes its motivational standards impossible to apply on a larger scale.

[Kotze]

There's nothing inherent about the modern family that makes its motivational standards impossible to apply on a larger scale.Oh, not that shit again. Reminds me of this exchange:
By the way do the Kotze family members remunerate each for services rendered?
That's a great example of how some things don't scale. I don't know how things work in the robbo family, but I happen to share more genes with my dad than with a random person on the street, which helps with things because personalities are partially determined by genes. More important is that in small groups we actually do reward doing stuff, even when we don't use contracts. There's always a bit of tit-for-tat going on. This informal reciprocity doesn't scale, because keeping track in your head even roughly of how much work everybody does becomes impossible as the number of people and tasks goes up.

I will not work for free you fucking hippies.

[eyedrop]

In apartment complexes, people are hired to do work.


Where do you live, since you haven't even heard of sharing the work in an apartment complex?

The 3 last apartment complex I lived in it has been no problems at all. It's usual to meet biyearly to discuss such matters and grievances.

Cleaning the stairs everyone shares, is usually done by a week by week rotation.

While a dugnad is usually held on a Sunday if something bigger needs to be done, like restoring the garden after the winter. A dugnad is basically just someone puts out a notice that we will work on the garden next Sunday, come if you can. A dugnad is mostly viewed as fun and most people will come as it also builds bonds which are quite important in living arrangements. Or it may even be celebrated with a party if held on Saturday.

Sometimes I get the feeling I live in La-la land compared to some of the people here.


Btw! In the states over in the "cozy" suburban complexes, if a playground for example needs to be built you do call together a gathering of people to do it together and share the material costs? You don't hire a workcrew to do it?

[Thug Lessons]

Personally I am opposed to the 'make everyone share the chores' answer, because all it take is for one person to refuse to do his or her chores then it becomes necessary to start frogmarching everyone to their chores at gunpoint.

Really? When you refused to clean your room your parents took out their rifles?


The key is to automate the jobs that NO-ONE wants to do, then distribute and reappropriate the other jobs to the specfic people that want them.

Simple.

It's simple because it's simplistic, reductionist and ignores that way that labor becomes undesirable socially. At the most basic level, it relies on a certain level of productive development that may or may not be present. There's no way to know in advance whether we'll be able to effectively automate any particular task. It's one thing to say we're going to get rid of all the jobs no one wants, and another thing entirely to actually do it.

At a more subtle level, though, it misses the point. Automation is all well and good, but it has very little to do with whether people enjoy their work. We live in a society that's increasingly automated, both physically and intellectually, but it's not making work any more enjoyable. A job in an automotive plant is still repetitive, boring, stultifying and generally undesireable whether the assembly line is staffed by humans or machines. Mathematics is still an incredibly taxing discipline despite the invention of the calculator. The problem is not at all that we don't have enough machines to make our lives easier, but rather that our society fails to make labor engaging and to give its workers purpose.

[Thug Lessons]

Oh, not that shit again. Reminds me of this exchange:

I will not work for free you fucking hippies.

It's not about genes. Do you think families with adopted children fail to function because there's not enough similarity between their genes and the adoptive parents'? In any case, there is no situation where we can avoid organizing remuneration socially, including the current one. We have to track individual social contributions somehow, and it's simply more efficient and equitable to decide these questions communally.

[Red_Devotchka]

I just know that I'd like to live in a world tht permits me to do what i love and what inspires me. Or at least in a world tht makes me feel like i was a real part of the production process, like i was really partecipating tht process and not only reinforcing "slave labour". In the captalistic system the phenomenon of alienation makes people completely extraneous to their work, and i hardly can find a real motivation in it... human is reverted to the primitive form of living, as his motivations become only eating, sleeping etc. Communism in first place ends private propriety and as a consequence overcomes the alienation.

[Che a chara]

In whatever form of socialism/communism/anarchism you support, how are workers going to be motivated to be productive?

Well post-revolution should see working conditions be more safer, of a higher standard, more inclusive and accessible with better hours.

If a worker wants to influence a decision which will effect them and their conscious output in the labour process surely it would be in their interest to participate and show some consideration in helping to advance productivity and society in general. Though alienation is more of a capitalist symptom, people who refuse to participate in a communist/socialist society may find themselves isolated from others around them and not be taken as seriously.

[#FF0000]

Really? When you refused to clean your room your parents took out their rifles?

my brother did once

once

[RedSunRising]

In whatever form of socialism/communism/anarchism you support, how are workers going to be motivated to be productive?

Those who will not work, let them not eat.

[Lord Testicles]

I will not work for free you fucking hippies.

It's not about pay, it's about being allowed free access to the produce of society.

[Rafiq]

You might be able to run a household like that, but you can't run a country with millions of people like that. You heed a way to motivate workers.


True, maybe we should lock them in a factory and threaten to have their job replaced if they complain about conditions, whilst making money of their labour,

Yeah, that'll motivate them.

OR

You could, say, only allow people who work to get the goods they want?