Prayer Room at Marxism conference?

[The Idler]

Just browsing the old Marxism Festival sites and it seems they arranged a prayer room at Marxism 2009 conference.
http://www.marxismfestival.org.uk/2009/practicalities.html
Anyone else think this quite unMarxist?

[Sugar Hill Kevis]

Some people are religious, get over it. The SWP has a reasonable constituency of muslim members, what's the point in alienating someone from the class struggle just because you disagree with them on theological grounds?

[Kamos]

While religion, in my opinion, is against the spirit of the revolution, unorganised religion (i.e. your private beliefs) are in fact quite harmless and thus this is a very minor issue. Contrary to common belief, not all Muslims go around murdering Christians with Muslamic ray guns.

[Robocommie]

So I guess SHUN THE UNBELIEVERS has now become SHUN THE BELIEVERS? How progressive...

[The Idler]

Maybe because organised religion is "violent, irrational, intolerant, allied to racism, tribalism, and bigotry, invested in ignorance and hostile to free inquiry, contemptuous of women and coercive toward children. Organising a prayer room is organised, praying in your private room is not.

[caramelpence]

Just browsing the old Marxism Festival sites and it seems they arranged a prayer room at Marxism 2009 conference.
http://www.marxismfestival.org.uk/2009/practicalities.html
Anyone else think this quite unMarxist?

Whatever "unMarxist" means, and whatever problems the SWP has, no, providing a prayer room is not "unMarxist". It's about creating a space in which people of different faiths but Muslims in particular can fulfill what they see as their religious obligations at the same time as engaging in political debate and attending the talks that form the core of the Marxism festival. There can't simply be a "private room" because Marxism is held in a public space - namely a university and other education-related buildings - so it's not like anyone is likely to have a private room on hand that they'd open up to religious believers to use. The organizers have decided to provide one in the same way that they provide other facilities that are designed to maximize attendance and accessibility - like a creche, for example.


Maybe because organised religion is "violent, irrational, intolerant, allied to racism, tribalism, and bigotry, invested in ignorance and hostile to free inquiry, contemptuous of women and coercive toward children

Maybe not everyone agrees with this reductionist and simplistic quote and other socialists see religion as a more complex and heterogenous aspect of social life? Maybe because some socialists think that the organizers of an event like Marxism shouldn't cast universal judgments on religious belief but should create a space that is open and accessible for all? If it is indeed a quote, as you've attached quote marks to one end of it without putting them at the other end or noting where the quote comes from.

[El Chuncho]

Maybe because organised religion is "violent, irrational, intolerant, allied to racism, tribalism, and bigotry, invested in ignorance and hostile to free inquiry, contemptuous of women and coercive toward children. Organising a prayer room is organised, praying in your private room is not.

What if it was a matriarchal religion? ''Organized religion'' is a misnomer because it implies that all organized religions are the same, which is not the case and some are worse than others. Also many Eastern religions are more traditionally tolerant than, say, Christianity because they accept universalism at least. Many modern forms of Christianity are both universalist and tolerant to homosexuals etc.

[The Idler]

The quotes from God is not Great by Chris Hitchens. There's a lot of strawmen, its not Islamophobic (we don't even know what religions had access to the prayer room), private room is where you're staying or sleeping and I'm not advocating shunning believers. Alienating people from the class struggle is an unusual point, since surely people are part of the class struggle whether anyone says they are or not. In fact the main purpose of most religion is to alienate people from the class struggle.

There's an article from only a few weeks ago in the Guardian.

Karl Marx, part 1: Religion, the wrong answer to the right question | Peter Thompson (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2011/apr/04/karl-marx-religion?INTCMP=SRCH)

[Black Sheep]

I guess they'll next set up a room for collective racist remarks, a room for flat-earthist discussion, and an alley for stoning breaks.

[Sam_b]

This is the stupidest thread I've seen for a while.

[Ravachol]

While I don't care if people believe in fish-frogs, fairies, moongods or sky-men in an unorganised fashion and having some room for spiritual reflection isn't the worst of things, I do wonder how the inherent conflict between the materialism of Marxism and religious worldviews is handled, they are inherently opposed.

[caramelpence]

The quotes from God is not Great by Chris Hitchens.There's a lot of strawmen, its not Islamophobic (we don't even know what religions had access to the prayer room), private room is where you're staying or sleeping and I'm not advocating shunning believers.

There's an article from only a few weeks ago in the Guardian.

Karl Marx, part 1: Religion, the wrong answer to the right question | Peter Thompson (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2011/apr/04/karl-marx-religion?INTCMP=SRCH)

I don't think anyone said that anything was Islamophobic (what would they have been referring to? you? the prayer room?) but the reason I said Muslims in particular is because it is mainly Muslims who see themselves as having an obligation to pray at specific times of day - though I wouldn't be surprised if the room would be used by adherents of other faiths as well. As for why it wouldn't be held in a private room in the sense of a room where people would be sleeping, well, last time I attended Marxism, the sleeping rooms were actually at community centers that were located several tube stops away from the main event, which people only travelled to at the end of the day if they were using the accommodation provided, so it wouldn't be feasible or accessible for those rooms to be used throughout the day as prayer rooms.

More importantly I'd expect that both praying believers and non-believers would actually be more comfortable if there was a specific space for prayer, as opposed to praying believers being expected to pray in any room. I don't know whether this would be true for me personally, but there would probably be some non-believers who, rightly or wrongly, would feel uncomfortable with large numbers of people praying several times a day in a space that's not geared specifically towards prayer, and there would also be some praying believers who would likewise feel uncomfortable with having to pray in a space that's mainly intended for other purposes, partly because of the likelihood of other people - perhaps including yourself - not wanting them to be praying at all.

It is, as I said before, about accessibility and making people feel comfortable. I don't think leftists should be taking their descriptions of religion from bigots and pro-war activists like Hitchens. I also fail to see how anything in that Guardian article is strictly relevant.


I guess they'll next set up a room for collective racist remarks, a room for flat-earthist discussion, and an alley for stoning breaks.

Or indeed for virulent pseudo-left Islamophobes who accept gross mischaracterizations of the beliefs of Muslims and use those mischaracterizations in order to pretend to be progressive or revolutionary.

[caramelpence]

While I don't care if people believe in fish-frogs, fairies, moongods or sky-men in an unorganised fashion and having some room for spiritual reflection isn't the worst of things, I do wonder how the inherent conflict between the materialism of Marxism and religious worldviews is handled, they are inherently opposed.

I can't speak for the organizers of Marxism, but I doubt they find it incredibly hard to reconcile what you see as an "inherent opposition" - if I were in their position I would acknowledge that, when organizing a political event like Marxism, it's good to make it as open as possible, and that, whilst an atheist and materialist myself, there's no reason to impose my beliefs on the organizing arrangements for a public event.

So, no inherent opposition or irreconcilable contradiction at all really, just a need to be mature.

[Olentzero]

Let's look at a couple factors here.

1. Mixed consciousness. It's a marxist concept, even. People don't suddenly and completely break with their previous ideas and conceptions; this is a process that takes time and conscious effort. It would be completely sectarian and dogmatic to demand that people who are interested in attending a Marxism conference to break completely with their religious beliefs beforehand. Socialist conferences should provide an environment that further radicalizes people and gets them to consider further breaking with their religious ideas, not exclude people because they have such ideas.

2. The status of Islam in Western Europe. Islam is very much a minority religion and is also the target of hate and oppression thanks to the atmosphere of bigotry whipped up by the architects of the 'war on terror'. Socialist need to actively combat this. A prayer room for Muslims attending a socialist conference in the UK is an expression of solidarity against hatred and oppression, not a concession to the idea of religion somehow being valid.

Your criticism might hold more water if they had also set aside room for Catholic Mass, shabbat prayers, Buddhist meditation, and so on and so forth. But that's not what happened. Marxism created a space specifically for members of a persecuted religion in order to encourage their attendance at a conference they were likely already sympathetic to.

Blindly denouncing all religion regardless of its situation in society is unmarxist. Being conscious of bigotry and oppression and taking measures to combat that with the goal of building a stronger base in a community and building a revolutionary party is not.

[caramelpence]

Marxism created a space specifically for members of a persecuted religion in order to encourage their attendance at a conference they were likely already sympathetic to.

I don't think the prayer room is solely for Muslims actually, even though I would imagine that it's largely Muslims who use it. But of course, everything else you say is perfectly correct.

[Olentzero]

I don't think the prayer room is solely for Muslims actuallyWell, the website said the SOAS Islamic Society was hosting it, so I think it was probably specifically for Muslims. No idea if they're doing the same thing this year; the 2011 site doesn't have a link for practicalities (or the practicalities are hidden somewhere I can't find).

[hatzel]

Well, the website said the SOAS Islamic Society was hosting it, so I think it was probably specifically for Muslims.Such arrangements, though aimed predominantly at Muslims, are never aimed exclusively at Muslims. At my uni we have a 'quiet contemplation room', which is really just a euphemism (if that's the right word?) for the Muslim prayer room, and I expect this arrangement to be similar. Of course Christians don't have such a prayer-routine, hence it is of course predominantly in the Muslim interest.

As has been mentioned by others, the failure to include such provisions would make it very difficult, if not impossible, for Muslims to attend. If they had to go off somewhere a couple of times throughout the day, it would have a negative impact on their ability to participate. Such decisions should be supported, and I hope subsequent conferences and congresses and festivals and so on will provide similar.

[TC]

I remember when SWP fronts would hold sex-segregated joint meetings with muslim groups!

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Just browsing the old Marxism Festival sites and it seems they arranged a prayer room at Marxism 2009 conference.
http://www.marxismfestival.org.uk/2009/practicalities.html
Anyone else think this quite unMarxist?

I don't think the vast majority of "Marxists" have anything to do with the man their dogma is named after.

[Wanted Man]

Haven't seen this discussion for a while...


While I don't care if people believe in fish-frogs, fairies, moongods or sky-men in an unorganised fashion and having some room for spiritual reflection isn't the worst of things, I do wonder how the inherent conflict between the materialism of Marxism and religious worldviews is handled, they are inherently opposed.

It's not the worst idea in the world, indeed. I don't know if this is true for UK universities, but an increasing amount of them here always have some kind of "silence" or "contemplation" space, so when you organise something there, you might as well keep the option open.

The "problem" with this is that it's probably specifically or even exclusively for Muslims, and that it partly stems from the effective line of the IS tendency of forming cross-class alliances with religious organisations of all varieties, no matter how reactionary. Or even worse arguments like the following:


2. The status of Islam in Western Europe. Islam is very much a minority religion and is also the target of hate and oppression thanks to the atmosphere of bigotry whipped up by the architects of the 'war on terror'. Socialist need to actively combat this. A prayer room for Muslims attending a socialist conference in the UK is an expression of solidarity against hatred and oppression, not a concession to the idea of religion somehow being valid.

Your criticism might hold more water if they had also set aside room for Catholic Mass, shabbat prayers, Buddhist meditation, and so on and so forth. But that's not what happened. Marxism created a space specifically for members of a persecuted religion in order to encourage their attendance at a conference they were likely already sympathetic to.

"Persecuted religion" in this context makes it sound as if the European governments are about to close down the mosques and burn the books, and that the SWP are providing some kind of sanctuary. :rolleyes:

[caramelpence]

it partly stems from the effective line of the IS tendency of forming cross-class alliances with religious organisations of all varieties, no matter how reactionary.

Apart from whether it's right to see this as the "line" of the IS (and I don't know what you have in mind - at what point has the IS entered into a cross-class alliance a religious organization?) you make it seem as if allying with religious bodies is somehow unheard of in the Marxist tradition - but even the Comintern recognized the contradictory role of religion and the important role of religious movements and organizations when they ordered the young Communist Party of Indonesia to enter the Sarekat Islam, which had initially been formed by devout Muslim merchants to defend their economic interests in Indonesia against other sections of the petty-bourgeoisie (such as ethnically Chinese merchants) and was entered into by the PNI because the Comintern saw it as a dynamic and broad social movement that could be pushed in a more radical direction through Communist involvement. It's like one other member said - consciousness is uneven and contradictory, political life doesn't follow the contours of neat categories or neatly live up to the wishes of socialists or anyone else.


"Persecuted religion" in this context makes it sound as if the European governments are about to close down the mosques and burn the books, and that the SWP are providing some kind of sanctuary.

At least one country (Switzerland) has witnessed legislation banning the further construction of Mosques and other countries (most obviously France) are passing laws restricting the right of Muslim women to wear religious garments in certain contexts, including in all public spaces, so yes, without even looking at the experiences of Muslims outside of formal legislation, it is entirely appropriate and valid to describe Islam as a persecuted religion, and it's too bad that sneering so-called socialists like yourself can't acknowledge that.

[Ravachol]

Persecuted or not, I don't see how cross-class alliances are justifiable in any way. A good piece about this whole thing was published in Aufheben #17 (http://libcom.org/library/croissant-roses-new-labour-muslim-britain).

Regarding this matter, Alfredo Bonanno's remark about National Liberation and Anarchism aplies just as much to any other struggle potentially involving cross-class alliances:



(Anarchists)...refuse to participate in national liberation fronts; they participate in class fronts which may or may not be involved in national liberation struggles. The struggle must spread to establish economic, political and social structures in the liberated territories, based on federalist and libertarian organisations.


Anything outside of this dictum is navigating into the waters of class collaboration.

[28350]

This is the stupidest thread I've seen for a while.
you must not come here often

[Sugar Hill Kevis]

we don't even know what religions had access to the prayer room

Correction: You don't know what religions have access to the prayer room. It's multi denominational, used predominantly by Muslims.



Alienating people from the class struggle is an unusual point, since surely people are part of the class struggle whether anyone says they are or not.

The active class struggle in which case? Do you really want to get in to a semantic argument here? My point was pretty evident, don't try and sidestep it by abstracting the debate.



In fact the main purpose of most religion is to alienate people from the class struggle.

It's not the "main purpose", I think the "main purpose" of religion is to find peace in a hypothetical afterlife. I loosely agree with Marx's analysis of religion, but chill out a bit dude. I'm assuming one of your issues with religion is over dogma, you might want to self evaluate a bit there...

In the vein of not wanting to lose sight of what's at hand; the real question here is "is the fact that there's a prayer room at Marxism going to negatively effect the experience of anyone there?"... clearly it's not, so I don't see the issue.

[Tifosi]

Your at a conference about Marxism, a place to share and discuss ideas about Marxism. Not to pray. I'm sure the 'praying room' could be put to a far better use, like something to do with Marxism?

Some people there got an overwhelming urge to chat to the sky daddy of their choice? Then they can walk out the door and head somewhere else, preferably somewhere were nobody else can see or hear them.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Maybe because organised religion is "violent, irrational, intolerant, allied to racism, tribalism, and bigotry, invested in ignorance and hostile to free inquiry, contemptuous of women and coercive toward children. Organising a prayer room is organised, praying in your private room is not.

lol lookit dis nub.

[Os Cangaceiros]

oh man! this must be part of that whole red-green alliance that Glenn Beck has been telling me about!

[Chris]

Your at a conference about Marxism, a place to share and discuss ideas about Marxism. Not to pray. I'm sure the 'praying room' could be put to a far better use, like something to do with Marxism?

Some people there got an overwhelming urge to chat to the sky daddy of their choice? Then they can walk out the door and head somewhere else, preferably somewhere were nobody else can see or hear them.

Because really, screw the religious. Who needs 80-90% of the population anyway? The REAL socialists are all atheist. Religious socialists are all a bunch of heretics and infidels, who needs to be excluded. The class struggle will be continued, although we now just accept 10-20% of the population. The minority masses will rise!

Seriously, it's just a room where the personally religious (as I really don't see any fanatics attend a marxist conference in the first place) can pray without disturbing the rest of the conference. I'm more worried about their analysis of Islam as a "persecuted religion" than them allowing the religious to pray.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Because really, screw the religious. Who needs 80-90% of the population anyway? The REAL socialists are all atheist. Religious socialists are all a bunch of heretics and infidels, who needs to be excluded. The class struggle will be continued, although we now just accept 10-20% of the population. The minority masses will rise!

Bro Chris Hitchens is a class ally obvs. what do you mean?

[Tim Finnegan]

Your at a conference about Marxism, a place to share and discuss ideas about Marxism. Not to pray. I'm sure the 'praying room' could be put to a far better use, like something to do with Marxism?

Some people there got an overwhelming urge to chat to the sky daddy of their choice? Then they can walk out the door and head somewhere else, preferably somewhere were nobody else can see or hear them.

You do realise that this could also be used as an argument against the provision of toilet facilities, don't you?

[Aurora]

Prayer Room
SOAS Islamic Society will kindly be hosting the prayer room at Marxism 2009. The women’s prayer room is located on the Brunei Gallery first floor. The men’s is in the main SOAS building basement.
I have no problem with a prayer room tbh,it's held in a Quaker meeting house anyways, but having sex segregation... at an event called Marxism... somethings wrong there...

[hatzel]

I have no problem with a prayer room tbh,it's held in a Quaker meeting house anyways, but having sex segregation... at an event called Marxism... somethings wrong there...If they're not segregated, they're not suitable for many Muslim's prayers, so what would be the point of having them, exactly?

[Rafiq]

I suppose if the Muslims going there are going to pray anyway, why not give them their own room to do it in when they do?

They're going to pray anyway..

Not that I'm criticizing the SWP for creating a prayer room, but in my opinion, the SWP is pretty unmarxist to begin with.

[El Chuncho]

I suppose if the Muslims going there are going to pray anyway, why not give them their own room to do it in when they do?

Because religion is evil and should not be encouraged. :rolleyes: Really, religion is only negative if followers let it be and at the moment it is only the opiate of the people in so much as people use it to make their sad lives seem happier. Is there anything wrong with that? Other than the obvious, no. Marxism should be about eradicating the need for religion, not religion directly. If these Muslims are good Marxists and do not let their religion override their Marxism, who cares what they believe religiously? They could worship Father Christmas for all I care!

[Red Future]

People there are Muslim socialists in the world and many of them do good work

[Tifosi]

Because really, screw the religious. Who needs 80-90% of the population anyway? The REAL socialists are all atheist. Religious socialists are all a bunch of heretics and infidels, who needs to be excluded. The class struggle will be continued, although we now just accept 10-20% of the population. The minority masses will rise!

Well good for you. Want to win the giant popularity contest? OK, take the easy root out and bow down to the reactionary elements of society and give yourself a big helping of class collaboration to.

You'll be lying to yourself and everybody else, which would be a bad move in the long run but you'll be well popular:tt1:


Seriously, it's just a room where the personally religious (as I really don't see any fanatics attend a marxist conference in the first place) can pray without disturbing the rest of the conference.

They have far too many places out of the conference area to pray in already. They don't need anymore. They can walk.

[Franz Fanonipants]

well good for you. Want to win the giant popularity contest? Ok, take the easy root out and bow down to the reactionary elements of society and give yourself a big helping of class collaboration to.

radical atheism - not for reactionaries or class collaborators

[RNL]

god Marxists
Best typo. :lol:

[Tim Finnegan]

They have far too many places out of the conference area to piss in already. They don't need anymore. They can walk.
My previous point, illustrated for your convenience.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Best typo. :lol:

frankly im for it

[Aurora]

If they're not segregated, they're not suitable for many Muslim's prayers, so what would be the point of having them, exactly?

To cater to those muslims and people of other religions who don't have a problem praying beside the opposite sex. There's a line between catering to someone's personal religious views and watering down our politics to be as broad as possible and i think that crosses it.

[El Chuncho]

Best typo. :lol:

Somewhat relevant! :lol:

[RevLeft By Birth]

Well, in Pyongyang and the DPRK as a whole there are at least four churches, not sure if there is a mosque.

Once universal world socialism is achieved then there will be no reason to have such things, but right now I suppose it's useful in attracting people to the class struggle.

[Tifosi]

You do realise that this could also be used as an argument against the provision of toilet facilities, don't you?


My previous point, illustrated for your convenience.

When the religious start having stomach pains from not being able pray for a prolonged period of time then this will be the case. So far, I haven't seen such a phenomena.

[Chris]

Well good for you. Want to win the giant popularity contest? OK, take the easy root out and bow down to the reactionary elements of society and give yourself a big helping of class collaboration to.

You'll be lying to yourself and everybody else, which would be a bad move in the long run but you'll be well popular:tt1:
Surrendering to reactionary elements is entirely different. Capitalism and fascism is hostile to the welfare of the working classes. Personally religious? Not really, especially as the majority of the working classes are personally religious (or even deeply religious).

We should rather work to remove the causes of religion, than try to simply remove religion. You can't cure a disease by just removing the symptoms as they come along. I'm personally christian, but I recognise religion as largely a symptom of a disease on human society. That disease is capitalism, not belief in a man in the sky/reincarnation/ghosts/insert-belief-here.



They have far too many places out of the conference area to pray in already. They don't need anymore. They can walk.

When the religious start having stomach pains from not being able pray for a prolonged period of time then this will be the case. So far, I haven't seen such a phenomena.
As earlier mentioned, there's plenty of places with toilet facilities. I guess we could ditch them as well. Oh, and plenty of places to get food and drink. Guess we don't need to serve anything. Hell, there's plenty of places to talk so we can ditch the meeting rooms as well.
I haven't seen marxists become physically ill from not attending conferences either. And there are plenty of places to meet marxists, so there is no point to the conference at all.

[Tim Finnegan]

When the religious start having stomach pains from not being able pray for a prolonged period of time then this will be the case. So far, I haven't seen such a phenomena.
Hey, nobody says you can't pee, just that you don't do it in our new Gramsci Discussion Space.

[Tifosi]

Surrendering to reactionary elements is entirely different. Capitalism and fascism is hostile to the welfare of the working classes. Personally religious? Not really, especially as the majority of the working classes are personally religious (or even deeply religious).

Not really, especially as the majority of the working classes are personally anti-immigration (or even deeply anti-immigration).

Not really, especially as the majority of the working classes are personally anti-abortion (or even deeply anti-abortion).

Not really, especially as the majority of the working classes are personally sexist (or even deeply sexist).

When is the next conference going to have sides rooms for people to indulge in their other most deeply held beliefs?


We should rather work to remove the causes of religion,

Yes we should. By taking wrecking balls to the churches, stopping them from preaching, heavily footnoting all of their books etc etc. You know, learning from others, like the Christians and how they killed off religions.

All of these are causes of religion, grand churchs and mosques are nothing but propaganda in bricks. Religion didn't just come about with Capitalism. It's be around a lot lot longer than Capitalism and will still be around after it if nothing is done.


As earlier mentioned, there's plenty of places with toilet facilities. I guess we could ditch them as well. Oh, and plenty of places to get food and drink. Guess we don't need to serve anything. Hell, there's plenty of places to talk so we can ditch the meeting rooms as well.
I haven't seen marxists become physically ill from not attending conferences either. And there are plenty of places to meet marxists, so there is no point to the conference at all.

That would be boring:lol:


Hey, nobody says you can't pee, just that you don't do it in our new Gramsci Discussion Space.

Reactionary pee, you learn something new every day.

[Queercommie Girl]

All of these are causes of religion, grand churchs and mosques are nothing but propaganda in bricks. Religion didn't just come about with Capitalism. It's be around a lot lot longer than Capitalism and will still be around after it if nothing is done.


Well, you are right, but organised religion came about with class society.

Genuine Marxism isn't just anti-capitalist, we are against every kind of class society that has ever existed. I'm against Marxists who are very pro-working class today but take an essentially bonapartist view regarding pre-capitalist class societies (i.e. taking neither the sides of the peasants/slaves nor the feudal lords/slavelords).

No, as Marx himself greatly praised and supported Spartacus, we are also on the side of the peasants and slaves, and not the feudal lords and slavelords, when examining all of human history.

[Tim Finnegan]

Yes we should. By taking wrecking balls to the churches, stopping them from preaching, heavily footnoting all of their books etc etc. You know, learning from others, like the Christians and how they killed off religions.
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/stalin-2.jpg

"Gimme five, bro!"

[Robocommie]

Haha, wow, "libertarian" socialist my ass.

[Zanthorus]

Haha, wow, "libertarian" socialist my ass.

I believe it's actually fairly consistent with the positions of his ideological forebear who wrote that God and the workers' movement constituted two diametrically opposed camps. Meanwhile the 'authoritarian' Marx:


His programme was a superficially scraped together hash of Right and Left – EQUALITY Of CLASSES (!), [I]abolition of the right of inheritance as the starting point of the social movement (St. Simonistic nonsense), atheism as a dogma to be dictated to the members, etc.- Marx to Friedrich Bolte, November 23rd 1871

[Chris]

Not really, especially as the majority of the working classes are personally anti-immigration (or even deeply anti-immigration).

Not really, especially as the majority of the working classes are personally anti-abortion (or even deeply anti-abortion).

Not really, especially as the majority of the working classes are personally sexist (or even deeply sexist).

When is the next conference going to have sides rooms for people to indulge in their other most deeply held beliefs?

You compare personally religious to sexists, anti-abortionists and anti-immigration? Does someone believing in a god, or goddess, or gods, or reincarnation, oppress you? Or anyone? I really don't see why you feel so strongly about personal religion. It is pretty much a non-issue, except of course fighting organised religion.

Should we take a crusade against belief in Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny and leprechauns as well? Surely, that is a good usage of our time. Forget unionism, forget working class organisation, forget agitating for revolution... It is superstition who is the REAL enemy! Forget the bourgeoisie!

[Queercommie Girl]

You compare personally religious to sexists, anti-abortionists and anti-immigration? Does someone believing in a god, or goddess, or gods, or reincarnation, oppress you? Or anyone? I really don't see why you feel so strongly about personal religion. It is pretty much a non-issue, except of course fighting organised religion.

Should we take a crusade against belief in Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny and leprechauns as well? Surely, that is a good usage of our time. Forget unionism, forget working class organisation, forget agitating for revolution... It is superstition who is the REAL enemy! Forget the bourgeoisie!

Of course, the main issue is with organised religion. (I mean certainly many types of politicised organised religion have literally massacred Marxists en masse, so potentially they are clearly an enemy) Private spiritual beliefs (or lack of) are another matter.

Having said this, Marxists should also explicitly support secularism in politics and education.

[Robocommie]

I just love how, as a religious socialist, who's perfectly satisfied with letting other people believe or not believe whatever they wish and to live and let live, I am still somehow such a threat to people like this. Me, and the fact there are horrible things like Bibles and Qu'rans and churches, synagogues and temples.

Seriously, why can't everyone just learn to be mature grown-ups and be cool with the fact that there are people who are going to dress, act, and do things they don't like? Even talking about getting rid of religion by removing the underlying cause? Who gives a flying fuck if people choose to gather into a community of faith on their own initiative and pray to a supernatural being whether you believe in it or not?

I mean shit, in college I used to hang out with a lot of neo-pagans, and I didn't have anything in common with them beliefs-wise, but they were nice people and they made good friends. I can say exactly the same about Christians and Muslims and Jews, or any other religion. Fuck off with this ridiculous, "I know better than you, I'm going to save you from your own beliefs" horseshit.

[Tim Finnegan]

Of course, the main issue is with organised religion. (I mean certainly many types of politicised organised religion have literally massacred Marxists en masse, so potentially they are clearly an enemy) Private spiritual beliefs (or lack of) are another matter.
Not all religious organisations are the Roman Catholic Church- or do you forget that the British trade union movement was heavily tied to the non-conforming churches of Wales and the North of England, particularly among that most militant of professions, the miners?

The character of a religious organisation is determined by far more complex factors than the simply fact of their religiosity.


Having said this, Marxists should also explicitly support secularism in politics and education.I would argue, that in the UK this means a certain level of acceptance of minority religions, such as Islam. In a country whose history is as drenched in militant Protestantry as this, the exclusion of religious minorities is quite hard to prize apart from the privileging of the (cultural) religious majority. (Which is not to say that neglecting to provide prayer spaces necessarily constitutes a form of exclusion- that's a debate in itself- but simply to offer a more general comment on the workers' movement.)

[Queercommie Girl]

I just love how, as a religious socialist, who's perfectly satisfied with letting other people believe or not believe whatever they wish and to live and let live, I am still somehow such a threat to people like this. Me, and the fact there are horrible things like Bibles and Qu'rans and churches, synagogues and temples.

Seriously, why can't everyone just learn to be mature grown-ups and be cool with the fact that there are people who are going to dress, act, and do things they don't like? Even talking about getting rid of religion by removing the underlying cause? Who gives a flying fuck if people choose to gather into a community of faith on their own initiative and pray to a supernatural being whether you believe in it or not?

I mean shit, in college I used to hang out with a lot of neo-pagans, and I didn't have anything in common with them beliefs-wise, but they were nice people and they made good friends. I can say exactly the same about Christians and Muslims and Jews, or any other religion. Fuck off with this ridiculous, "I know better than you, I'm going to save you from your own beliefs" horseshit.

Who are you addressing this to?

I hope it's not me, because I support the freedom of belief even though I'm essentially an atheist, and I don't really care about private spirituality per se. Nor do I explicitly plan to eradicate spirituality and religion in a post-revolutionary society, as long as politics and education remain secularised. (As they already are even under the current Western capitalist system)

However, political religion and theocracy can often be a threat to Marxism, in the life-and-death sense. For instance, the killing of communists by the Islamist regimes in the Middle East, or the CIA-backed coup against the PRC by the Tibetan Lamas. So really, you can't blame us for being wary about this. It's a matter of survival.

I'm not a militant atheist, but I am a militant secularist. Indeed, only a genuinely secular society can protect the rights of all religions, otherwise one form of religion will dominate over others.

[Chris]

I just love how, as a religious socialist, who's perfectly satisfied with letting other people believe or not believe whatever they wish and to live and let live, I am still somehow such a threat to people like this. Me, and the fact there are horrible things like Bibles and Qu'rans and churches, synagogues and temples.

Seriously, why can't everyone just learn to be mature grown-ups and be cool with the fact that there are people who are going to dress, act, and do things they don't like? Even talking about getting rid of religion by removing the underlying cause? Who gives a flying fuck if people choose to gather into a community of faith on their own initiative and pray to a supernatural being whether you believe in it or not?

I mean shit, in college I used to hang out with a lot of neo-pagans, and I didn't have anything in common with them beliefs-wise, but they were nice people and they made good friends. I can say exactly the same about Christians and Muslims and Jews, or any other religion. Fuck off with this ridiculous, "I know better than you, I'm going to save you from your own beliefs" horseshit.

By "removing the underlying cause" we do mean the removal of the capitalist system, and the desperation and alienation this leads to (which again leads people to want to find solace in something, often religion or drugs). A lot of religious are religious due to that. I think a communist society would still have religions, but I'm fairly sure it would be a minority.

I'm not talking about saving anyone from beliefs (would need to start with myself, there), but organised religion is pretty much a reactionary force without like. I'm not talking about a mosque/church, but about organisations like the Catholic Church, many Protestant Churches, etc with full hierarchies and who plays an immensely reactionary role in the world.

[Queercommie Girl]

Not all religious organisations are the Roman Catholic Church- or do you forget that the British trade union movement was heavily tied to the non-conforming churches of Wales and the North of England, particularly among that most militant of professions, the miners?

The character of a religious organisation is determined by far more complex factors than the simply fact of their religiosity.


Well, I wouldn't say the Roman Catholic Church is the only reactionary religious institution. Nor would I simply state that the trade union movement in Britain was completely progressive, even though it was largely so, but of course non-conformist religions are generally more progressive than orthodox religions.

The reactionary nature of particular kinds of organised religion isn't primarily dictated by their religious content in any philosophical sense, according to Marxist analysis, but rather by their class character - the socio-economic and political roles they play in actual society.

And of course even non-class societies possessed certain kind of religious or spiritual beliefs, and even in the far future where science and technology are hyper-advanced, humanity may still possess some form of "scientific spirituality". So religion in the fundamental sense is not intrinsically linked with class society per se.



I would argue, that in the UK this means a certain level of acceptance of minority religions, such as Islam. In a country whose history is as drenched in militant Protestantry as this, the exclusion of religious minorities is quite hard to prize apart from the privileging of the (cultural) religious majority. (Which is not to say that neglecting to provide prayer spaces necessarily constitutes a form of exclusion- that's a debate in itself- but simply to offer a more general comment on the workers' movement.)
I think only genuine secularism can actually protect the rights of minority religions, which is one reason (among others) why I'm a militant secularist.

I strongly oppose Islamophobia, but then I don't agree with Islamophilia either. It has to be said that some groups of Muslims (not the majority) do plan to create some kind of theocratic type of society, and theocracy is certainly reactionary and is a threat to Marxism and progress, as well as minority rights.

[Robocommie]

Who are you addressing this to?

I hope it's not me, because I support the freedom of belief even though I'm essentially an atheist, and I don't really care about private spirituality per se.

No no, not you. I recall there was a time once when you said some things that riled my feathers, but over time it seems like you started swaying more towards tolerance and acceptance.

My tolerance extends to atheism. In fact the very person who most inspired me to stop putting up with anti-theists bullshit was an atheist; he once stated that he felt anti-theism in general was Nietzschian contempt for the masses.

My problem is with people who talk about taking "wrecking balls to churches" and generally other bullshit that amounts to treating religious people like children, criminals or both.



I'm not a militant atheist, but I am a militant secularist. Indeed, only a genuinely secular society can protect the rights of all religions, otherwise one form of religion will dominate over others.

I'm actually very pro-secularist myself. I feel that secularism protects the rights of religious minorities, it also protects religion from the corruption that ensues from being used as a political tool rather than a roadmap for personal growth.

[Robocommie]

I'm not talking about saving anyone from beliefs (would need to start with myself, there), but organised religion is pretty much a reactionary force without like. I'm not talking about a mosque/church, but about organisations like the Catholic Church, many Protestant Churches, etc with full hierarchies and who plays an immensely reactionary role in the world.

Yeah, I apologize if I was overly broad with what I said because I didn't really mean to include you as a target of my rant either. :lol:

That said, I'm not entirely sure how to feel about the idea of organized religion being bad whereas unorganized religion is not. I mean, I was raised Catholic, and to most Catholics, the institution of the Church is synonymous with the faith. Talking about getting rid of the Church is basically tantamount to forcing all Catholics to be Protestant. I realize the truth of what you say about the RCC and its involvement in politics is very frequently problematic, but I think there must be a better solution than doing away with the concept of organization in religion.

[Queercommie Girl]

Yeah, I apologize if I was overly broad with what I said because I didn't really mean to include you as a target of my rant either. :lol:

That said, I'm not entirely sure how to feel about the idea of organized religion being bad whereas unorganized religion is not. I mean, I was raised Catholic, and to most Catholics, the institution of the Church is synonymous with the faith. Talking about getting rid of the Church is basically tantamount to forcing all Catholics to be Protestant. I realize the truth of what you say about the RCC and its involvement in politics is very frequently problematic, but I think there must be a better solution than doing away with the concept of organization in religion.

The Catholic Church today isn't really theocratic anymore, but it still has many reactionary elements.

According to Marxism, it's not the "church" itself that is the problem, but rather its socio-economic and political links with the capitalist class society we live in. After all, the Church today is still linked with and essentially upholds the capitalist status quo. Another problematic area is the orthodox Church's relatively reactionary position on women's issues and queer issues. (Though of course many rank-and-file Catholics don't take such views)

One could hypothetically imagine a Catholic Church in a communist society in which the organisational structure no longer has any links with any bourgeois or feudal elements and it no longer promotes any reactionary social views. Such a church is no longer reactionary in the socio-economic sense.

[Commissar Rykov]

I am rather confused as to what the issue is? It seems like they were just being accommodating to people of Faith and I would hardly call it anti-Marxist. I personally don't care what a person believes in religiously as long as they struggle for the betterment of Mankind and the dismantling of the Capitalist system.

[black magick hustla]

i don't think the inclusion of "prayer spaces" in marxism has anything to do with the swps muslim sensibilities, but with the fact that they've been cozing up with cross-class "islamic" organizations. i wont drink the cool laid about them being considerate to muslim folk because of tolerance or some bs

[hatzel]

i don't think the inclusion of "prayer spaces" in marxism has anything to do with the swps muslim sensibilities, but with the fact that they've been cozing up with cross-class "islamic" organizations. i wont drink the cool laid about them being considerate to muslim folk because of tolerance or some bsOh, maldoror, you're such a sceptic! Everybody else trying to be nice to the SWP (a challenge, I know :tt2:), and then you just wade in and give them the what-for!

[dernier combat]

Should we take a crusade against belief in Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny and leprechauns as well?
Yeah, because I find all that shit you mentioned to be really fucking stupid. Down with Saint Nick!