thoughts on porn

[Tenka]

I'd also argue that porn with its undoubtedly powerful imagery of often (though not always) objectifying and hierarchal imagery is unhealthy for the consumer (which is also unhealthy to society in general, as it affects the consumers actions towards others in society).
I don't think it affects people's actions towards others in society, but rather that it reflects certain base, animalistic urges and popular attitudes towards sexuality which would by no means disappear with the disappearance of porn depicting such.


Neither does porn really encourage the joys of our sexuality, rather alienates, degrades and confines them to a sedative video.
Porn is not supposed to encourage any "joys of sexuality". It is there for people to get off on. If people get off on supposed "joys of sexuality", there is doubtless also porn marketed towards this audience.


This asymmetric substitution of experience - how we passively watch instead of actively do - is a depressing feature of our society, and is clear in most of our culture (from spectator sports to music to literature to politics) - and is increasingly worsened by consumerism.
This "depressing feature of our society" afflicts all forms of media. Spectator sports are called spectator sports for a reason, and I question whether it's so depressing to 'passively watch' recorded sex acts as opposed to 'actively doing' them.

[Sasha]

I'd also argue that porn with its undoubtedly powerful imagery of often (though not always) objectifying and hierarchal imagery is unhealthy for the consumer (which is also unhealthy to society in general, as it affects the consumers actions towards others in society). Neither does porn really encourage the joys of our sexuality, rather alienates, degrades and confines them to a sedative video. This asymmetric substitution of experience - how we passively watch instead of actively do - is a depressing feature of our society, and is clear in most of our culture (from spectator sports to music to literature to politics) - and is increasingly worsened by consumerism.


i must disagree, i am not ashamed of my kinks and i can tell you "objectifying and hierarchal imagery" gets me off and i'm for sure more kinky than my GF. Yet still i think that not only i am above feminist than most men i think my healthy, realistic relationship to sex, sexuality, porn and kinks is an key factor in that.
Porn related to my kinks are an outlet for that part of my sexuality that she isnt really into or in fact cant accommodate me in even if she wanted out of being GGG (for example my bi-sexuality). I'm not saying that an absence of porn would lead me to commit sexual violence but it is for sure an big factor in my not cheating with others and i can see how in an person with anti-social tendencies who doesnt have an otherwise fulfilling sexlife it very well could.

[RedSunRising]

but wouldn't you argue that the celibacy in the roman catholic church, while for sure not being the only causation is not for sure part of the problem of sex crimes within the church?

Child abuse like rape is about power, domination, not sex as such.

What is porn is about it? People can be oh liberal about porn, but what do think they think about their mum or daughter being in it? Thats the acid test.

[Sasha]

Child abuse like rape is about power, domination, not sex as such. sadist abuse is, but i really believe not all is. like with rape for some/many (?) in their mind (the perps) its about love and sex.


People can be oh liberal about porn, but what do think they think about their mum or daughter being in it? Thats the acid test. i wouldn't want to watch it but if they chose to be in it voluntarily and in good mental health i would have no problem with it.
its not really an healthy business but neither is mine being an bouncer. some people can deal with it, some not.

[Sword and Shield]

Porn related to my kinks are an outlet for that part of my sexuality that she isnt really into or in fact cant accommodate me in even if she wanted out of being GGG (for example my bi-sexuality). I'm not saying that an absence of porn would lead me to commit sexual violence but it is for sure an big factor in my not cheating with others and i can see how in an person with anti-social tendencies who doesnt have an otherwise fulfilling sexlife it very well could.


sadist abuse is, but i really believe not all is. like with rape for some/many (?) in their mind (the perps) its about love and sex.

This confirms it. You're a sexist piece of shit.

[PhoenixAsh]

This confirms it. You're a sexist piece of shit.
:laugh::laugh:

thats the most hilarious conlcusion I have ever seen.

Pray, do explain this...brilliant leap of thought...

[El Chuncho]

Child abuse like rape is about power, domination, not sex as such.

Yep, and child pornography is just child abuse. I find it amusing when paedophiles and paedophilia-defenders talk about the ''sexual liberation of children''. No, they do not want to liberate them at all, they just want to see them abused for their own sexual appetite. Young children have not gone through puberty, they are not made for sex and they do not have sex with eachother for that reason.

Rather than attacking all pornography like some here, I think we should focus more on things like child pornography which isn't sexist, but is certainly abuse.




What is porn is about it? People can be oh liberal about porn, but what do think they think about their mum or daughter being in it? Thats the acid test.

Anyone (as long as they are not force into it or children) can be in it, pornography is a career, it just needs to be socialized really.

We also cannot forget that males are in pornography (and thus being ''objectified'' as ''studs'', and I laugh when I hear people say that women do not watch porn, I know that many do), and you have homosexual pornography between men or females, bisexual pornography and transsexual pornography. I try not to be too moralistic when it comes to issue about sexuality.

[eyedrop]

What is porn is about it? People can be oh liberal about porn, but what do think they think about their mum or daughter being in it? Thats the acid test.

Doesn't this question assume that you either are terrible immature, or have family values from the 17th century.

Kinda like yo-mama jokes, sorry I discuss anal sex and cheating with my mother should I feel insulted by some stupid yo-mama thing?

[SJBarley]

some very interesting points raised there, and in truth it is clear that porn exploits its workers with both physical and mental risks going hand in hand with the possible future humilation of being seen doing what was once a loving deed but has now descended into sordid pleasure owing to how society has grown (thats not to say society today is horrible, its growing still learning to accept that which is different). I absolutly agree that some research should be taken into looking at the "actresses" themselves and seeing how and why they were attracted to porn and what the possible risks could be for them, alas this is unlikely to happen in todays world. :(

[El Chuncho]

The thing is that it is mostly the ex-pornstars, male or female, who find Christianity state that the were abused and forced into. Most ex=pornstars simply retired and admit that they liked having sex, which is why they did the job (and they are luckily, because it is hard for most to get jobs they like). A conservative Christian is bound to say it is abuse and immoral.

And if they face ''future humiliation'' that is the fault of society creating new ''untouchables'', rather than the fault of the actors, actresses and the industry as a whole.

[Tim Finnegan]

The pornography industry is definitely for the most part at the lower end of the pile. Not always - but knowing with each individual video is fairly hard.
My advice would be to pick a particular set of producers that you know are pretty trustworthy- however that is established, and whatever that consists of in any given situation- and stick to that. Preferably one with and at least halfway progressive approach to the actual content, too, for the sake of helping to establish a market for this stuff. (And, yes, I know that this smacks horribly of liberal "vote with your wallet" guff, but with small producers it has some truth to it.)

Or steal it, I guess, but that opens up an entire ethical debate in itself...


Neither does porn really encourage the joys of our sexuality, rather alienates, degrades and confines them to a sedative video. This asymmetric substitution of experience - how we passively watch instead of actively do - is a depressing feature of our society, and is clear in most of our culture (from spectator sports to music to literature to politics) - and is increasingly worsened by consumerism.I'm not sure I understand this logic; while I certainly agree that mainstream pornography can be subtly alienating, I don't know if that has anything to do with the fact that is passive. Rather, I think that it lies in the relationship that people in capitalist society have to their sexuality as represented and sustained by mainstream pornography, and by mainstream culture in general, in which the collective experience of human sexuality is appropriated, diced up, and then sold back to us in normative forms, extremely limited in terms of beauty perceptions, sexual practices, sexual-emotional facets, and so forth. Capitalism by its nature atomises individuals, increasingly forcing their interactions into the narrow avenue of commodity exchange, denying individuals the ability to meaningfully define themselves in relationship to each other and to society at large. One manifestation of this is the deformed constructions of sexuality that emerge, and while pornography is certainly their most blatant representation, it is not their ultimate source.
No surprise then, that that the queer community and fetish subcultures, e.g. BDSM culture* often have a healthier-than-average attitude towards sexuality, because the very fact of their variance has obliged them to take at least a few steps towards reclaiming the sexuality as a social experience. The challenge to the status quo, as is usual, comes from the outside, not from the middle.
(*Not that I'm conflating queer sexualities and fetishes, of course. And not that that means I'm dismissing sexual variance unrelated to gender as mere indulgence. Basically, whatever qualifiers are needed, mentally insert them [here]. ;))

Of course, one could argue that there's a culture of passivity- you mention the continued popularity of professional sports even as participation drops- but I don't think that can be rooted in the form of any particular medium. Rather, I would suggest that it is again a product of atomisation, specifically, that these activities are often robbed of social context and commodified, and so people become used to being consumers of performances, rather than what you might call "passive participants". For example, if you attend some awful mainstream pop concert, you'll find that most of what you say is true, but if you attend an underground punk gig, you'll find exactly the opposite; that the audience, while not engaged in the performance in the same active sense as the musicians, have established themselves as an integral part of it, and so reclaim it as a social experience. They are no longer there as mere consumers of the noises tumbling down from the stage, but as part of a mutual celebration of that music, of the subculture, of whatever.
How you go about "reclaiming" porn, of course, I'm really not sure, but I don't doubt that some people have already given it a bit of thought.


some very interesting points raised there, and in truth it is clear that porn exploits its workers with both physical and mental risks going hand in hand with the possible future humilation of being seen doing what was once a loving deed but has now descended into sordid pleasure owing to how society has grown
That's an awfully romantic view of the average Victorian sex-life. :confused:

We really need to rid ourselves of this inherited puritanism. Human sexuality is complex, far more complex than viewing it as a squishy extension of idealised romance allows, so you need to keep a very open mind about it if you want to understand it in any substantial fashion. Sometimes sex really is a physical expression of Twue Wuv and all that, and sometimes it's strangers just rutting away for no other reason than that it's fun and they don't have anything else to do. There's really no "proper" way to go about it.


What is porn is about it? People can be oh liberal about porn, but what do think they think about their mum or daughter being in it? Thats the acid test.
For personal hypocrisy, perhaps.

[Desperado]

Again, more stuff about society being damaged by pornography. Sorry, but most people who watch the stuff are unmarried, middle-aged men in their basements with little to know influence on society.

Whether or not it is damaging has nothing to do with how big or small that damage is. Also, the damage is two sided - the workers and consumers.


Pornography just isn't mainstream enough to be a threat to society. Kids do not watch porn, neither do many, many people in society, Statistics vary greatly and are understandably unreliable, but the figures are certainly significant - it's a multi-billion dollar industry after all. On purely anecdotal evidence, I can say that a large majority of the males in my school year watch pornography at least once a week.


and most just watch it because they want to masturbate, not because they want to learn from it. Of course. But it still has a conscious and subconscious affect on us.


To imply that people who watch porn do not respect other human beings - male or female - because of its influence seems a tad naive. They may treat other human beings in a more negative way ("respect" is an ambiguous term). Again, whether or not it has a negative influence has nothing to do with how big or small this negative influence is.


All it needs is to be socialized like any industry. Capitalism has far more of an affect than the workers not controlling the means of production, although this is the basis.


I don't think it affects people's actions towards others in society, but rather that it reflects certain base, animalistic urges and popular attitudes towards sexuality which would by no means disappear with the disappearance of porn depicting such.

It's a loop with feedback, naturally. You assume popular attitudes are simply our nature.


Porn is not supposed to encourage any "joys of sexuality". It is there for people to get off on.Where did I say otherwise?



This "depressing feature of our society" afflicts all forms of media.Indeed it does.


Spectator sports are called spectator sports for a reason, and I question whether it's so depressing to 'passively watch' recorded sex acts as opposed to 'actively doing' them.Well, I'm sure you'd agree that the joys of doing are far greater than watching.


i must disagree, i am not ashamed of my kinks and i can tell you "objectifying and hierarchal imagery" gets me off and i'm for sure more kinky than my GF. Yet still i think that not only i am above feminist than most men i think my healthy, realistic relationship to sex, sexuality, porn and kinks is an key factor in that.

Could you elaborate on this?


Porn related to my kinks are an outlet for that part of my sexuality that she isnt really into or in fact cant accommodate me in even if she wanted out of being GGG (for example my bi-sexuality). I'm not saying that an absence of porn would lead me to commit sexual violence but it is for sure an big factor in my not cheating with others and i can see how in an person with anti-social tendencies who doesnt have an otherwise fulfilling sexlife it very well could.I am sure there are as always exceptions, but these are as said: exceptions. I would agree that porn is subduing, and not encouraging or aggravating - it makes sex more boring - but this is part of why it is negatively substituting for true experience.

[Tim Finnegan]

I am sure there are as always exceptions, but these are as said: exceptions.
If exceptions exists, it suggest that your claims do not reflect any essential quality or universal experience of pornography. However, those are claims that you appear make. How do you reconcile this?

[Desperado]

If exceptions exists, it suggest that your claims do not reflect any essential quality or universal experience of pornography.

Yes.


However, those are claims that you appear make. How do you reconcile this?

...
The pornography industry is definitely for the most part at the lower end of the pile. Not always - but knowing with each individual video is fairly hard.

I'd also argue that porn with its undoubtedly powerful imagery of often (though not always) objectifying and hierarchal imagery is unhealthy for the consumer (which is also unhealthy to society in general, as it affects the consumers actions towards others in society).
...

[Tim Finnegan]

In regards to the first part, that refers to the conditions of labour, not to the effects on the viewer, and so is not relevant.

In regards to the second, you acknowledge that pornographic imagery is "not always" objectifying and hierarchical, but you still suggest that pornography has an essentially harmful nature. If we remove your qualifier, we are left with "porn... is unhealthy for the consumer", and I'm not sure that the text in between, "with its undoubtedly powerful imagery of often (though not always) objectifying and hierarchal imagery", fundamentally alters that. Rather, these seem to be posed by you as frequently occurring characteristics that build upon an essentially problematic core, but not the core itself. "If A then B, else C" may follow logically, but "A is B (unless it's not) because X" is a rhetoric weighted rather heavily to a certain conclusion.

[Desperado]

Fair enough. For the record then: porn is not necessarily bad, just today's mostly is.

[Le Libérer]

This confirms it. You're a sexist piece of shit.

How about another infraction for flaming? Ok! if you say so!

[Sasha]

Could you elaborate on this?

an realistic approach to sexuality, free of hangups and prejuidice, informed by well researched actual science has helped me a lot to understand human behavior and thus males, females and their social relationships.
for example books and research about S&M can learn you a lot about power and submission, not only in the bedroom.


I am sure there are as always exceptions, but these are as said: exceptions. I would agree that porn is subduing, and not encouraging or aggravating - it makes sex more boring - but this is part of why it is negatively substituting for true experience.why, you don't think porn can be inspirational? while being of course anything but an accurate depiction of IRL sex anyone who ever watched porn (which is about everyone) who says they never got inspired to try or want to try something they saw in said porn is lying.
without forms of porn, being hardcore internet porn, under the counter dirty magazines, erotica, the kamasutra or ancient greekvases most of us would be doing it in the missionary position all the time.

[chegitz guevara]

Everything in capitalist society objectifying and hierarchical. Cooking a meal for someone can be a very personal and intimate act. It sustains and nourishes us, and we are literally trusting our lives to such people. Clearly, food for profit is evil and anyone who participates in it is a sick fuck who gets off on the exploitation of others.

This is capitalism. Overthrow it. Then see what people do with their lives. There will almost certainly still be a porn industry, given the amount of amateur porn out there. Some of it is going to disturb you petty bourgeois moralists.

Too bad.

[El Chuncho]

Whether or not it is damaging has nothing to do with how big or small that damage is. Also, the damage is two sided - the workers and consumers.

I just find it amusing that people over inflate the damage on both sides. I do not think for one minute that many people have ever met a worker in adult entertainment, let alone know them. To claim that the porn industry is especially damaging is naive. People having sex on camera is not usually as ''damaging'' as manual labour in oppressive countries. A man breaking his back in a factory suffers a lot more for less money, usually.

And the damage done to the consumer is nothing, they just get their jollies for an hour or however long the product is. To think they come away from it hating HUMANS (not just women as I keep pointing out, as men perform in those films) and wanting to sexual abuse them. Some might, but that is a product of their own mental problems and not the product.

It is like violent films. They do not cause violence, usually, and can be safely used for catharsis.


Statistics vary greatly and are understandably unreliable, but the figures are certainly significant - it's a multi-billion dollar industry after all.

It is, and it needs to be socialized. But to claim it is mainstream, implying that children can legally watch it and do, is ridiculous.


On purely anecdotal evidence, I can say that a large majority of the males in my school year watch pornography at least once a week.

Lonely young men who want to ''relieve'' their pent up ''frustration'', that doesn't imply mainstream. Mainstream means films that you can watch in mainstream theatres; usually family films, and which may have impact on society as a whole.


Of course. But it still has a conscious and subconscious affect on us.

Nonsense. And what are they meant to learn from it? That people have sex? The majority of pornography is not violent, and even if it is, people do not think that real life is like a porn film. And I resent such pop psychology being thrown in here. If people take pornography to be real life, they have issues that can be more seriously addressed by a real psychologist. To claim that normal people subconsciously get negative thoughts implanted from silly porn films is silly. What does that me? Are you implying that they will want to rape people? That is foolish. There is no real evidence that pornography causes rape, just as there is no evidence that violent video games cause violence. On the other hand, other could easily made the reversed claim that pornography acts as a sort of ''catharsis'' and thus can help stop rape.


Again, whether or not it has a negative influence has nothing to do with how big or small this negative influence is.

I cannot reply to this, it makes no sense. If there is no negative influence, then you cannot debate to how big or small it is, as there is no negative influence to measure. But thinking that more sound-minded people get any sort of negative influence from pornography is, I must state again, a tad extreme and ridiculous.



I am sure there are as always exceptions, but these are as said: exceptions. I would agree that porn is subduing, and not encouraging or aggravating - it makes sex more boring - but this is part of why it is negatively substituting for true experience.

And so you think that it should be banned? No offense, but the claim that it is ''negatively substituting for true experience'' is faulty, because what about people who CANNOT experience true sex? What then? Should they remain mentally celibate? Should they go out a rape so they can have a ''true experience? No, they should just stay in their basements with their pornography!

[Wanted Man]

What's absolutely baffling is that some people are suggesting that a medium like porn actually has something that causes a switch in our brains that causes us to rape. They would probably reject the exact same argument from, say, Jack Thompson or Joe Lieberman on video games. After all, the implications of that would be a bit troublesome for the teenage boys who are trying to be edgy on this site by being all rad-fem.

And let's not even get started on similar claims about rap music...

[Desperado]

I just find it amusing that people over inflate the damage on both sides. I do not think for one minute that many people have ever met a worker in adult entertainment, let alone know them. To claim that the porn industry is especially damaging is naive. People having sex on camera is not usually as ''damaging'' as manual labour in oppressive countries. A man breaking his back in a factory suffers a lot more for less money, usually.

Working in the porn industry is a far more unregulated, degrading, deficient in rights and stigma associated profession than compared with most jobs in developed economies. I never said it was the worst, or that others aren't also.


And the damage done to the consumer is nothing, they just get their jollies for an hour or however long the product is. To think they come away from it hating HUMANS (not just women as I keep pointing out, as men perform in those films) and wanting to sexual abuse them.As I explicitly made clear in my last reply to you, I said that it is damaging. I never said that it creates hate, nor that it causes sexual abuse (in my post responding to psycho I noted that porn is sedative).



HUMANS (not just women as I keep pointing out, as men perform in those films)Red herring. But besides, if you want to double check, in all of my posts I referred to the performers as workers and did not specify gender. Again, you seem to be replying to an imagined version of what I said.


It is, and it needs to be socialized. But to claim it is mainstream, implying that children can legally watch it and do, is ridiculous. Sorry, what world do you live in? I was a regular porn watcher, as are most of my male companions (none yet 18). Simply that it's illegal doesn't mean they don't. And it's as mainstream as at least 10-20% of the male adult population in the USA from the only available statistics. Besides, none of this has anything to do with it being damaging. Another red herring.


Mainstream means films that you can watch in mainstream theatres; usually family films, and which may have impact on society as a whole. Or it could mean mainstream as in many people do it. Why whether it's watched in theatres or in private rooms affects whether it is damaging or not...


Nonsense. And what are they meant to learn from it? That people have sex? The majority of pornography is not violent, and even if it is, people do not think that real life is like a porn film. And I resent such pop psychology being thrown in here.This is not pop psychology, the media which we consume has an affect on us beyond that we realise.


If people take pornography to be real life, they have issues that can be more seriously addressed by a real psychologist. To claim that normal people subconsciously get negative thoughts implanted from silly porn films is silly.Why?


What does that me? Are you implying that they will want to rape people?No.


If there is no negative influence, then you cannot debate to how big or small it is, as there is no negative influence to measure.Precisely. Why then where you emphasising that it wouldn't have a massively negative affect?


But thinking that more sound-minded people get any sort of negative influence from pornography is, I must state again, a tad extreme and ridiculous.Why? Sound-minded people get negative influences from tabloids, adverts and propaganda all the time.


And so you think that it should be banned?If you're not going to reply to what I actually said, and just imagine my posts, you may as well sit in a dark room and do this on your own.


No offense, but the claim that it is ''negatively substituting for true experience'' is faulty, because what about people who CANNOT experience true sex? What then? Should they remain mentally celibate? Should they go out a rape so they can have a ''true experience? No, they should just stay in their basements with their pornography!There are exceptions. The majority of people who watch porn however are more than able to experience real sex.

[PhoenixAsh]

I agree with you...aside from the rap video's.

I think that is somewhat more of an influence since children are trying to emulate the behaviour of their idols.

[Desperado]

Everything in capitalist society objectifying and hierarchical.

Yet some professions have even less rights and the workers are there out of even less choice. Do you purposefully buy from sweatshops?

[Desperado]

why, you don't think porn can be inspirational?

I'm sure it can, but mostly it's a repetition of the same generic thing. There is little creativity in the mainstream porn industry.


while being of course anything but an accurate depiction of IRL sex anyone who ever watched porn (which is about everyone) who says they never got inspired to try or want to try something they saw in said porn is lying.
without forms of porn, being hardcore internet porn, under the counter dirty magazines, erotica, the kamasutra or ancient greekvases most of us would be doing it in the missionary position all the time.

I doubt this. There are transcripts of Medieval Priests telling their flocks not to do it doggy or make dildos from carved-wood and leather.

[Sasha]

I doubt this. There are transcripts of Medieval Priests telling their flocks not to do it doggy or make dildos from carved-wood and leather.

thats my point, while i know human creativity, especially when it comes to sex knows no boundaries i'm also pretty sure that since the first "fertility goddess" was carved out of bone, the first caveman doodled an penis on a wall with charcoal, humans used "porn" not only to arouse but also to drawn inspiration from.

[chegitz guevara]

Yet some professions have even less rights and the workers are there out of even less choice. Do you purposefully buy from sweatshops?

Nope, and I don't watch porn from sweat shops either. :rolleyes:

I don't watch porn at all, actually, but I don't like petty bourgeois morality dressed up as anarchism or communism. You infantalize people in the sex industry in the name of protecting them. Unless they actually are children, they are as capable as anyone else in making their own decisions. They may make bad ones, because of how fucked up their lives have been, but so do a lot of people whose jobs also suck. I see a lot of people giving comrades shit for eating fast food, but not because it's exploitive and the jobs are degrading.

Sex is just sex. It's nothing special, unless its with someone with whom you have chemistry, in which case it's the best thing there is. But acting as if all sex should be something special is falling into that patriarchal bullshit we're trying to overthrow. Hopefully, someday, people will be able to fuck just cuz they want to, with out all this morality fucking them up.

[gorillafuck]

good thing we have feminist men to protect women from making their own decisions.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Child abuse like rape is about power, domination, not sex as such.

What is porn is about it? People can be oh liberal about porn, but what do think they think about their mum or daughter being in it? Thats the acid test.

People may be for the end of the drug war but what if they're mother or daughter were drug addicts, people may be for fair trials and the end of the death penalty but what if they're children were murdered etc. I actually don't really think that's a good acid test for one's politics.

[gorillafuck]

What is porn is about it? People can be oh liberal about porn, but what do think they think about their mum or daughter being in it? Thats the acid test.If my future daughter is in porn, it wouldn't make me want the criminalization of porn. In fact I'd be pretty freaked out for her sake if she's in porn and it's criminalized.

[$lim_$weezy]

No restrictions whatsoever should be made on information consumption of any kind, including pornography. This freedom of information is an extremely important personal freedom. Censorship on any kind of information is wrong. If certain things are viewed as having negative effects on society, especially if they are private matters, restriction is one of the most dangerous, wrong, and ultimately ineffective ways to go about fixing them, and one that I cannot agree with.

Speaking purely of consumers here. Of course sex workers should be emancipated like any worker.

[REVLEFT'S BIEGGST MATSER TROL]

What's absolutely baffling is that some people are suggesting that a medium like porn actually has something that causes a switch in our brains that causes us to rape. They would probably reject the exact same argument from, say, Jack Thompson or Joe Lieberman on video games. After all, the implications of that would be a bit troublesome for the teenage boys who are trying to be edgy on this site by being all rad-fem.

And let's not even get started on similar claims about rap music...

Yes but rap is done by black people and often sounds aggressive and therefore its a vital part of the campaign to be a badass women defending ANTI RASICSM ANTI IMPERLAISM raaaaaaaaaadical commie, and call out white liberals over the internet yo!

[ZeroNowhere]

What is porn is about it? People can be oh liberal about porn, but what do think they think about their mum or daughter being in it? Thats the acid test.Appeals to senseless emotion? Surely that is the height of rational debate.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

People can be oh liberal about porn, but what do think they think about their mum or daughter being in it? Thats the acid test.

Right. Because it's the duty of real men to protect "their" women! :rolleyes:

[Desperado]

I don't watch porn at all, actually, but I don't like petty bourgeois morality dressed up as anarchism or communism. You infantalize people in the sex industry in the name of protecting them. Unless they actually are children, they are as capable as anyone else in making their own decisions.

How is it infantilizing to say that pornographers who would rather be doing something else should have the opportunity to do something else?


They may make bad ones, because of how fucked up their lives have been, but so do a lot of people whose jobs also suck. I see a lot of people giving comrades shit for eating fast food, but not because it's exploitive and the jobs are degrading.

I am critical of all degrading jobs. Sadly many jobs in pornography are especially degrading.


Sex is just sex. It's nothing special, unless its with someone with whom you have chemistry, in which case it's the best thing there is. But acting as if all sex should be something special is falling into that patriarchal bullshit we're trying to overthrow. Hopefully, someday, people will be able to fuck just cuz they want to, with out all this morality fucking them up.

This has nothing to do with a phobia of sex or giving it some higher importance.

[chegitz guevara]

How is it infantilizing to say that pornographers who would rather be doing something else should have the opportunity to do something else?

It is infantalizing because you take away from sex workers their right to make bad decisions. They are only allowed to make the decisions of which you find morally acceptable.

I'd rather be doing something else besides working. Should people not view websites because I'm an HTML developer, just cuz I'd rather be a scientist?

And what about all of the amateur porn sites? Obviously some people enjoy doing porn, cuz they're giving it away for free.


I am critical of all degrading jobs. Sadly many jobs in pornography are especially degrading.

That's capitalism for you. The purpose of our revolution is to liberate people, to allow them to make their own choices without anyone or anything imposing on it, as long as it doesn't harm someone. Abolishing porn isn't liberation. It's imposing your morality on others.


This has nothing to do with a phobia of sex or giving it some higher importance.

The hell it doesn't. The ONLY reason you get your undies in a wad is because it is sex. Where are the anti-fast food threads? Where are the anti-garbage collection threads? Where are the anti-migrant work threads? And on and on. Capitalism requires the degradation and humiliation of its workers. Sex workers are no different. The only difference between this and all the other jobs you don't protest is sex.

[RedSunRising]

That's bullshit. I think $700-800 is about the going rate for a female performer in a boy-girl scene. Seven or eight hundred to spend the better part of a day getting fucked repeatedly in your anus, mouth and vagina by the biggest dick they could find without any protection often while being slapped, choked and called a whore (customers demand it these days) and then kneel to take a semen shot on your face and smile for the camera like you love it so much - on top of whatever degrading shit the director may ask you to do in a "private shoot" beforehand which is pretty standard practice - that is not "well-paid" by any stretch of the imagination.

Its dropped substanially over the last view years.

And yes if the vast majority of pornography was showing normal sex I might view it differently. The people defending it seem never to have seen any modern porn which I find hard to believe considering the fucked up world we come from.

[Sasha]

Sigh... even when the sexacts are real its still acting remember? "unprotected" actually means on an extremly tight testing regime. Raw sex is actually plenty of lube and regular breaks. "whore calling" is just acting again between ppl sharing an beer as soon as the camera is off.
Seriously ppl its just an job, an unhealthy job, but an job.
Like any fictional film its not real, really, trust me.

[RedSunRising]

Like any fictional film its not real, really, trust me.

The fact though that so many men would like it to be real, that the thought of it being real gets them hard, though is pretty disturbing- likewise the fact that some women seem to see no problem in this. The idea that the fiction we see and read doesnt effect how we look at the world or inspire us to do stuff is also wrong I think.

[Sasha]

If I engage in cossplay with someone does that mean i want it to be real?
If I engage in bondage does that mean i want to be humiliated or submissive outside of the bedroom/dungeon?
Hell, if I watch an slasher movie or play an violent videogame does that mean i want to kill people?
Isn't porn, like all these things exactly arousing because it depicts fantasies? taboos? Things you wouldn't do in real life?

[RedSunRising]

Hell, if I watch an slasher movie or play an violent videogame does that mean i want to kill people?
Isn't porn, like all these things exactly arousing because it depicts fantasies? taboos? Things you wouldn't do in real life?

Sexual violence against women though is not uncommon in our culture though. But if you see no connection between the type of "acting" that happens in porn and our culture of rape in all honesty, I know I wont be able to persuade you otherwise.

[Sasha]

Yes it is, but I refuse to accept that there is an casual relationship as long as all the arguments under scruteny turn out again and again to be nothing more than puritanical fallacies.

[RedSunRising]

Yes it is, but I refuse to accept that there in an casual relationship as long as all the arguments under scruteny turn out again and again to be nothing more than puritanical fallacies.

So the fact that women are being presented as "sluts" and "whores" who are ritually humiliated for male sexual entertainment and thats a big enough part of our culture which also happens to have a fair bit of actual sexual violence against women is incidental and think otherwise you must be some sort of puritan?

[Sasha]

Maybe porn is influenced by society instead the other way around?
Maybe porn is an outlet or representation for primal urges normal people can keep in check, maybe even in part thanks to porn, which people with an social- or personality order cant?
I dont know but its an cold hard fact that most people watch and enjoy porn in their life and that an huge percentage of them doesn't commit sexual violence which is in conflict with the dominant discour presented by both puritans and bourgeois feminists.

[RedSunRising]

Maybe porn is influenced by society instead the other way around?
Maybe porn is an outlet or representation for primal urges normal people can keep in check, maybe even in part thanks to porn, which people with an social- or personality order cant?


Maybe there is a dialectal relationship between the two where they both feed off and influence each other?

Maybe the will of a man to humiliate a woman or girl isnt a "primal urge" (how essentialist of you!) but something to do with patriarchial power relations on a social level?

[Sasha]

Sorry, primal urge is the wrong word, I got lost in translation.
Disregard the primal bit.

[Sasha]

which regardless leaves my essential point i make in the second half of the post which you chose not to engage.

[RedSunRising]

I dont know but its an cold hard fact that most people watch and enjoy porn in their life and that an huge percentage of them doesn't commit sexual violence which is in conflict with the dominant discour presented by both puritans and bourgeois feminists.

I dont think its most people at all, and given the percentages of women who have suffered rape....And when did for want of a better word "paleo-feminism" suddenly get dismissed as bourgeois feminism?

[Sasha]

I'm BTW not defending the dominating depiction of females and male - female relationships in modernday porn. my "its acting" post was in reference to the post you quoted not your own argument.

[RedSunRising]

I'm BTW not defending the dominating depiction of females and male - female relationships in modernday porn. my "its acting" post was in reference to the post you quoted not your own argument.

But that is presuming that people are against porn because it depicts sexual acts and not because of the way it depicts them.

[Sasha]

like in any entertainment form I believe the creaters should take their social responsibilities instead of making as much money possible, but that just means that the problem is capitalism not porn in its essence.

[RedSunRising]

like in any entertainment form I believe the creaters should take their social responsibilities instead of making as much money possible, but that just means that the problem is capitalism not porn in its essence.

Whether you admit or not this particular form of entertainment shatters already shattered lives and feeds much that is very wrong with this society. Yes the problem is capitalism (and patriarchy), but fighting to end one wrong within capitalism is suddenly completely bad? When workers under capitalism strike for better pay should their struggle also be dismissed because capitalism itself is the problem.

[PhoenixAsh]

The fact though that so many men would like it to be real, that the thought of it being real gets them hard, though is pretty disturbing- likewise the fact that some women seem to see no problem in this. The idea that the fiction we see and read doesnt effect how we look at the world or inspire us to do stuff is also wrong I think.


On that same argument...I also get pretty riled up and identofy with many gangster movies and action movies...

Yet...I really do not get my AK and shoot up the place.

So there is a logical fallacy in your argument. You are equating exitement on a suspension of dibelieve with actual real life behaviour....and are arguing one will flow over in the other.

[PhoenixAsh]

Sexual violence against women though is not uncommon in our culture though. But if you see no connection between the type of "acting" that happens in porn and our culture of rape in all honesty, I know I wont be able to persuade you otherwise.

I do not ascribe to the culture of rape. But on that matter...isn't the whole feminist argument this was happening way, way before porn as well?

[$lim_$weezy]

It would be interesting to see if there are any reliable studies either backing up or refuting what RedSunRising is talking about (not necessarily saying that this would validate the conclusions drawn). Does anyone know of any?

[REVLEFT'S BIEGGST MATSER TROL]

The fact though that so many men would like it to be real, that the thought of it being real gets them hard, though is pretty disturbing- likewise the fact that some women seem to see no problem in this.

So you think bdsm is disturbing (and, presumably since you were discussing things in this context before calling disturbing, reactionary and sexist?)

I'm going to anticipate that you don't think bdsm interactions where the guy is "domimant" are reactionary or sexist, and at least part of your response will be claims that women aren't engaged in porn on a "voluntary basis" like bdsm people, and therefore suffer since they don't enjoy being called a whore or whatever. Which would reveal that your argument as baically ..." if women are ever mistreated in a job its sexist". Which is obviously wrong.

I think its quite hard to realise (or, obvious to any person who isn't male and really trying hard to be a "feminist") but that women being mistreated, even in a sexual context, isn't an example of sexism unless its motivated by the belief women are inferior to men. The fact that a woman has to give her boss a blowjob to get hired doesn't mean he's a sexist or that his actions are sexist, or that society is nessacarily sexist even if he is, obviously, both an asshole, and most likely a beneficiary of the fact that women are generally poorer and have generally shittier "roles" in society than men. I think a few "feminist" people need to get out of this whole "OOOH WOMEN ARE GETTING TREATED BAD IN THIS PARTICULAR PLACE, SO THEREFORE THATS SEXISM!!!" mentality and be more specific about what sexism is and identifing it.

*

[Klaatu]

I volunteer to be the first one in the revolution to declare that I abhor seeing people get exploited (that is the essence of capitalism, is it not?) and there are surely those in the "porn industry' getting exploited (as in any capitalist industry!)

But be that as it may, I am also against censorship in any form, in that it inhibits freedom and free-spirited self-expression. That is to say that, if two consenting adults wish to film their sexual escapades in full, in uncoerced agreement, without profit in mind, in order to educate and better the knowledge and betterment of mankind, wish to engage in consensual sex, by filming it and presenting it, by whatever media is available, then more power to them, and may they be successful in their enterprise, since it is intended as a noble educational purpose to those less knowledgeable, in order to improve their love and sexual relationships.

That is to say that, I believe that pornography can improve and strengthen marriages, rather than tear them apart (as is commonly believed!)

[REVLEFT'S BIEGGST MATSER TROL]

Whether you admit or not this particular form of entertainment shatters already shattered lives and feeds much that is very wrong with this society. Yes the problem is capitalism (and patriarchy), but fighting to end one wrong within capitalism is suddenly completely bad? When workers under capitalism strike for better pay should their struggle also be dismissed because capitalism itself is the problem.

Uh, because ending the "wrong" of the pornography industry will have negative conquences on the people who work there?

[Sword and Shield]

I think its quite hard to realise (or, obvious to any person who isn't male and really trying hard to be a "feminist") but that women being mistreated, even in a sexual context, isn't an example of sexism unless its motivated by the belief women are inferior to men. The fact that a woman has to give her boss a blowjob to get hired doesn't mean he's a sexist or that his actions are sexist, or that society is nessacarily sexist even if he is, obviously, both an asshole, and most likely a beneficiary of the fact that women are generally poorer and have generally shittier "roles" in society than men. I think a few "feminist" people need to get out of this whole "OOOH WOMEN ARE GETTING TREATED BAD IN THIS PARTICULAR PLACE, SO THEREFORE THATS SEXISM!!!" mentality and be more specific about what sexism is and identifing it.

I'm sure you enjoyed that little male privileged rant.

[Wanted Man]

It would be interesting to see if there are any reliable studies either backing up or refuting what RedSunRising is talking about (not necessarily saying that this would validate the conclusions drawn). Does anyone know of any?

I'm sorry I can't offer a useful answer here, but I just wanted to say that the burden of proof is on those asserting that porn causes sexual abuse (and that video games cause high school shootings, and that rap music causes both violence and sexual abuse, that is media cause bad behaviour).

[REVLEFT'S BIEGGST MATSER TROL]

I'm sure you enjoyed that little male privileged rant.

I see the PS3 network is still down.

[chegitz guevara]

How is it posible women were raped and oppressed before porn was produced?

[Robocommie]

At this point I'm finding this thread highly pornographic. I think it degrades everyone who participates in it, but frankly I can't find anything more degrading about it than any other thread on Revleft. I'll just have to let you guys have the right to make bad decisions by posting in it.

:lol:

[GX.]

At this point I'm finding this thread highly pornographic. I think it degrades everyone who participates in it, but frankly I can't find anything more degrading about it than any other thread on Revleft. I'll just have to let you guys have the right to make bad decisions by posting in it.

:lol:
These threads always degrade into:
1) dudeish posturing and pointless, scattershot rants about feminism
2) patriarchy doesn't exist
3) hey guys censorship is bad
4) porn is just like working in [insert shitty service job] (why is it always being compared to an abjectly bad job if all wage labor is the same?)

I think the more relevant question is to what extent porn is a projection of patriarchal culture, or reinforces it, or some combination of the two. But I guess it's more fun to troll and be an aggressive jerk?

[Tenka]

I think its quite hard to realise (or, obvious to any person who isn't male and really trying hard to be a "feminist") but that women being mistreated, even in a sexual context, isn't an example of sexism unless its motivated by the belief women are inferior to men. The fact that a woman has to give her boss a blowjob to get hired doesn't mean he's a sexist or that his actions are sexist, or that society is nessacarily sexist even if he is, obviously, both an asshole, and most likely a beneficiary of the fact that women are generally poorer and have generally shittier "roles" in society than men. I think a few "feminist" people need to get out of this whole "OOOH WOMEN ARE GETTING TREATED BAD IN THIS PARTICULAR PLACE, SO THEREFORE THATS SEXISM!!!" mentality and be more specific about what sexism is and identifing it.

*

If women are consistently treated worse than men, and there is no apparent reason besides them being women, how is that not sexism? How is it not sexist for a boss to not require the same blowjobs of his prospective male employees as of the female ones? As a rule, it's women who are treated this way and not men, and this is a pretty good indication that sexism pervades very much of society; as is "the fact that women are generally poorer and have generally shittier 'roles' in society than men".

[REVLEFT'S BIEGGST MATSER TROL]

If women are consistently treated worse than men, and there is no apparent reason besides them being women, how is that not sexism? How is it not sexist for a boss to not require the same blowjobs of his prospective male employees as of the female ones? As a rule, it's women who are treated this way and not men, and this is a pretty good indication that sexism pervades very much of society; as is "the fact that women are generally poorer and have generally shittier 'roles' in society than men".

I'm glad someone responded since I have a real issue with the views you're outlining.

If women are treated consistantly worse than men in a large enough "size" of the population, then no doubt, that is an indication of sexism.

I don't think it is sexist of a boss to require blowjobs from prospective employees provided the action isn't motivated or enabled by the belief women are inferior. I don't think to ask for blowjobs from women you're in some position of power over means you feel, or that they are made inferior due to being women, but that you feel they are sexually attractive due to being women, and only "inferior" in the due to economic circumstances. Note here, women are obviously economically/socially disadvantaged compared to men, but this therefore the "sexism" related to their economic disadvantage rather than the specific relations in this case. Reading this over I don't think i'm expressing myself too good, but can you try and like, at least attempt to get what i'm saying rather than raging at my sexism or whatever because I really don't intend it to be?


"How is it not sexist for a boss to not require the same blowjobs of his prospective male employees as of the female ones?"

This point makes no sense, since the only way for it to be consistent here is to require that people treat each other without regard of gender. I'm presuming you don't find any attraction to specific genders sexist?


As a rule, it's women who are treated this way and not men, and this is a pretty good indication that sexism pervades very much of society; as is "the fact that women are generally poorer and have generally shittier 'roles' in society than men"

I agree with what you said here - yes, sexism pervades society, and the fact that women are often more exploited by their gender roles, and in general, than men, is a really strong indication of this. This fact doesn't make asking for women to do "nasty" things necessarily, it means the fact that women are systemically disadvantaged sexist and therefore in a position to be exploited more in general simply due to their gender sexist.

Before you deny this i'd like you to try remain consistent - if treating a woman badly - having give a blowjob she ordinarily wouldn't want too, is necessarily sexist, is treating a woman "badly" in any circumstances sexist? Is being an asshole in hetro relationships as a man sexist? If it isn't, then why so puritan? If, as I imagine your going to argue that such actions are sexist only if they are "enabled" by patriarchy (which a boss being able to get a blowjob probably is), surely a man doing anything is sexist to a certain extent, considering to such a degree men are enabled by patriarchy, are those individuals seeing combat in the us army sexist themselves etc? I suppose i'm being a bit stupidly abstract, but I think its important to try and break these things down as much as possible into their component parts, and it seems to me like the specific action (as long as it isn't motivated by feelings of gender superiority) isn't sexist, since the people involved have no knowledge or inclination to be sexist themselves, but the society which "enabled" such actions can be.

[GX.]

I don't think it is sexist of a boss to require blowjobs from prospective employees provided the action isn't motivated or enabled by the belief women are inferior. Once you reduce discrimination to subjective, individual intentions it becomes possible to deny almost any charge of discrimination. People lie like hell. I don't know how many times I have heard "I'm not racist, I promise!" The question is not whether the person is "really" sexist/racist/etc. but whether the action materially contributes to or reinforces a system of oppression. And if there is a trend in behavior, that serves as evidence that the person is sexist or whatever. It doesn't really matter how the person feels about it, that has no bearing on the material circumstances.

[Tim Finnegan]

But that is presuming that people are against porn because it depicts sexual acts and not because of the way it depicts them.
"It"? Porn isn't homogeneous. You're generalising from the mainstream (and quite possibly a slight caricature of it, which, given how unnecessary that really is, lends not little weight to the suggestion that your position is emotive rather than rational), which is either foolish or dishonest, depending on how much you buy into your own rhetoric.

[REVLEFT'S BIEGGST MATSER TROL]

Once you reduce discrimination to subjective, individual intentions it becomes possible to deny almost any charge of discrimination. People lie like hell. I don't know how many times I have heard "I'm not racist, I promise!" The question is not whether the person is "really" sexist/racist/etc. but whether the action materially contributes to or reinforces a system of oppression. And if there is a trend in behavior, that serves as evidence that the person is sexist or whatever. It doesn't really matter how the person feels about it, that has no bearing on the material circumstances.


Well, in this thread, if I can speak for everyone, sexism seems to of been defined as something which refers to women being treated as inferiors due to being women. So I think my point still stands for that? Given what sexist is generally taken to mean, it is surely one thing to say that "your actions could be percieved as reinforcing the correctness of male superiority", and another to say "your actions were sexist?"

As far as your idea that the crucial point is to identify whether an action contributes to some "system of oppression"*, that seems very unclear to me. Do you propose some form of counting system, where any man who goes against his gender superiority wins a point for feminism, and any women who becomes a CEO? Is it actually sexist for a man to like sports? You know, reinforcing the idea that men like sports, and their gender role from that? Perhaps you want to it be a matter of degree, things that are "really percieved" by society as overt indications of male/female gender roles are sexist enough to be worth calling so? Is this even the form of "feminism" to be encouraged? That, though their individual actions, people can be told they contribute directly to a system of terrible oppression, and surely the important thing is to challenge the system directly, rather than attempting to convince individuals, or claiming that individuals, can influence such things by rebelling against certain stereotypes, while leaving fundamental questions unasked. for instance, this whole thread has occured in part due to feminists in the past making it more acceptable for women to have sex, and thinking they'll find some kinda liberation away from the kitchen and in the bedroom, but has that really changed anything in terms of the damaging and unequal expectations placed on women other than the form they are in? Surely that means that identifying sexism based on basically how actions are "perceived" by society at large is a dead end? I just can't buy all of this.

[RedSunRising]

"It"? Porn isn't homogeneous. You're generalising from the mainstream (and quite possibly a slight caricature of it, which, given how unnecessary that really is, lends not little weight to the suggestion that your position is emotive rather than rational), which is either foolish or dishonest, depending on how much you buy into your own rhetoric.

It pretty well is actually.

[Tim Finnegan]

It pretty well is actually.
Are you trying to invalidate your own position with blatantly false remarks, or does it just come naturally?

[pastradamus]

Whether you admit or not this particular form of entertainment shatters already shattered lives and feeds much that is very wrong with this society.

How does the act of myself viewing pornographic images shatter lives?


When workers under capitalism strike for better pay should their struggle also be dismissed because capitalism itself is the problem.

Workers under capitalism include those within the pornographic and sex industry. There is no capitalism or socialist argument here. Sex is Sex. Whether straight, gay or bisexual it exists and its not going to go away. People will always want it and so a market for it will always exist on that basis. No amount of abstract points and opinions is ever going to change the fact that there is a demand for sex.

[RedSunRising]

How does the act of myself viewing pornographic images shatter lives?



The humilation of women for entertainment exists because there is market demand, by viewing you are feeding that demand in a society where there are a lot of women and girls made vunerable for sexual abuse from childhood up. The idea that she isnt just an image on a screen or photo in a magazine but a human person with a past and future is something porn fans dont seem to cop.

[Tim Finnegan]

The humilation of women for entertainment exists because there is market demand, by viewing you are feeding that demand in a society where there are a lot of women and girls made vunerable for sexual abuse from childhood up.
Right, but he asked why porn was problematic. Noting that the humiliation of women and pornography are two over-lapping areas doesn't suggest that either is essential to the other.


The idea that she isnt just an image on a screen or photo in a magazine but a human person with a past and future is something porn fans dont seem to cop.You should head over to Suicide Girls or Burning Angel. The amount of personal interest shown in the performers by the fans there, through their internal social networks, will probably unnerve a latter day puritan such as yourself just as much as any indifference.

[chegitz guevara]

These threads always degrade into:
1) dudeish posturing and pointless, scattershot rants about feminism

This is always problematic, but there exits a strong pro-sex, pro-porn section of the feminist movement that is often ignored by anti-sex/anti-porn feminists


2) patriarchy doesn't exist

It's stupid to deny this, but patriarchy gets you coming and going. If you oppose porn, you're upholding patriarchy, by arguing that women are helpless, that they can't make their own choices, that sex is something women need to be protected from. If you are pro-porn, you're upholding certain stereotypic roles.

The question then is to try and figure out what people would do in a free, non-sexist society. Unless it were repressive, porn, of every conceivable type (between consensual adults), will almost certainly continue to be produced.


3) hey guys censorship is bad

This is true.


4) porn is just like working in [insert shitty service job] (why is it always being compared to an abjectly bad job if all wage labor is the same?)

This is also true, unless you feel that the act of sex is something bad. I don't. Would you rather be a high end prostitute or a strawberry picker? It's not the sex that is degrading. It's the attitudes people have about it.


I think the more relevant question is to what extent porn is a projection of patriarchal culture, or reinforces it, or some combination of the two. But I guess it's more fun to troll and be an aggressive jerk?

That finger points both ways.

[Anarchrusty]

I cannot even begin to express my dissapointment in revolutionaries that uphold such a bourgoise institute as porn. I can only explain it this way: none of the pro's here have been able to find an objective way to discuss it, and are talking from their groins.
If you take porn at face value, and truely dissect it for what it is, you'll find it is a gateway to sexual violence in many occassions. And that is because that is what it precisely depicts: the demeaning, humiliation and psysical abuse of a woman.


And what is with people defending amature porn? Has any of you thought about the fact that that is sex between two lovers and we have no business butting in? It is a private moment and not meant for all.

FACT: since porn has become mainstream, rape has trippled. Long time safe cities like Oslo and Sweden are nowadays the capitals of sexual violence against women which is directly linked to a capitalist approach to commercialised pornography and sex ads.
In Holland, another ''liberal'' porn country, instances of animal torture have gone through the roof and you know what? They are the foremost producers and distributors of animal sex video's.

Take all this into account and see if you still can defend porn. Do some soulsearching and find out something about yourself. You may or may not like it.

[agnixie]

I cannot even begin to express my dissapointment in revolutionaries that uphold such a bourgoise institute as porn. I can only explain it this way: none of the pro's here have been able to find an objective way to discuss it, and are talking from their groins.
If you take porn at face value, and truely dissect it for what it is, you'll find it is a gateway to sexual violence in many occassions. And that is because that is what it precisely depicts: the demeaning, humiliation and psysical abuse of a woman.


And what is with people defending amature porn? Has any of you thought about the fact that that is sex between two lovers and we have no business butting in? It is a private moment and not meant for all.

FACT: since porn has become mainstream, rape has trippled. Long time safe cities like Oslo and Sweden are nowadays the capitals of sexual violence against women which is directly linked to a capitalist approach to commercialised pornography and sex ads.
In Holland, another ''liberal'' porn country, instances of animal torture have gone through the roof and you know what? They are the foremost producers and distributors of animal sex video's.

Take all this into account and see if you still can defend porn. Do some soulsearching and find out something about yourself. You may or may not like it.

Sources? Because bourgeois feminists are always singing the glory of the swedish prostitution model.

[Anarchrusty]

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/05/03/oslo-rape-threat-heightened-for-russ/

It was a link sent to me by one of my friends, Agnixie.

[Tenka]

I cannot even begin to express my dissapointment in revolutionaries that uphold such a bourgoise institute as porn. I can only explain it this way: none of the pro's here have been able to find an objective way to discuss it, and are talking from their groins.
If you take porn at face value, and truely dissect it for what it is, you'll find it is a gateway to sexual violence in many occassions. And that is because that is what it precisely depicts: the demeaning, humiliation and psysical abuse of a woman.
I don't think the "Anti"s have put forward any more objective arguments against porn than have been put forward in favour of it. I dare say that the most objective argument anyone could put forward against pornography would be equally against sex and acting. Exploitation in the capitalist porn industry is probably higher than in the capitalist film industry due to social stigma about the kind of acting taking place, but the "physical abuse" and "humiliation" you see in any live-action porno film is highly unlikely to be without precedent in reality -- it is just what turns people on; and neither is it always women who are depicted this way in pornography... I'm sure you've heard of gay porn?


And what is with people defending amature porn? Has any of you thought about the fact that that is sex between two lovers and we have no business butting in? It is a private moment and not meant for all.
Do you know what exhibitionism is? Many people take pleasure in exposing themselves, or in being watched as they have sex, it cannot be denied. I don't think you could chalk that up to patriarchal conditioning or whatever.



FACT: since porn has become mainstream, rape has trippled. Long time safe cities like Oslo and Sweden are nowadays the capitals of sexual violence against women which is directly linked to a capitalist approach to commercialised pornography and sex ads.
Source?


In Holland, another ''liberal'' porn country, instances of animal torture have gone through the roof and you know what? They are the foremost producers and distributors of animal sex video's.
Source on both of these claims also?

[Anarchrusty]

Tenka,

Off course I have heard of gayporn.

I am bisexual myself, and before I became politically aware I was enjoying porn as such mentioned.
Let me give you an example of bisexual porn: a man and a woman both pleasure another man, both guys pleasure eachother. Sounds good, right? But wait. Who is pleasuring the woman? Why is everyone ignoring her lust? Because she is just a prop. She is there to suck a cock, maybe two, but that is it. Ow yeh, they get to cum all over her.

Now, that may not be physically harming her, BUT it is telling of the way society regards females. She is there for the male, and the male doesn't even have to acknowledge her. Art imitating life? Your call.

Gay porn is an entirely different animal. It shows the equality there is between men, but only one reason for this: a woman is not wanted in those vids. Were they heterosexual men, I can assure you the tables would turn 180 degrees in disfavour of the downtrodden sex here.

[Tenka]

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/05/03/oslo-rape-threat-heightened-for-russ/

It was a link sent to me by one of my friends, Agnixie.

And how is that a source for any of your correlations? Also, the perceived increase in rapes "since porn has become mainstream" is probably similar to the perceived increase in natural disasters as the end of days approaches. (The deeply religious often make this latter claim, seemingly unaware that relatively recent developments in mass media have lead to such things being reported far more often than they ever could have been before...)

[agnixie]

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/05/03/oslo-rape-threat-heightened-for-russ/

It was a link sent to me by one of my friends, Agnixie.

Did you somehow think we wouldn't read it? :rolleyes:
It says nothing of what you want it to say. I'll also note that rape going up largely comes from it being more properly reported, as the vast, vast majority of rapes tend to be in environments where they would never have been reported before (intimate settings with people you know or, in the US, prisons).


Let me give you an example of bisexual porn: a man and a woman both pleasure another man, both guys pleasure eachother. Sounds good, right? But wait. Who is pleasuring the woman? Why is everyone ignoring her lust? Because she is just a prop. She is there to suck a cock, maybe two, but that is it. Ow yeh, they get to cum all over her.

It's not my fault you've only seen crap porn. Well, maybe a bit since admittedly the good stuff tends to be so underground and more of the "we made it for fun, if other people see it it's good too" type

[Anarchrusty]

Agnixie: I provided the link, didn't I? Why do you assume I think people are too stupid to read a link? I am not following you here.

[Sasha]

Lol @ the claimed connection between animal abuse and beasteality production in Holland.
There is no way you can come up with any connection between these "facts" other than in a way that would put Glenn beck to shame.
No one here is arguing "from their groin" but it seems some are arguing from their arse.

And yeah, source that please.

[Tenka]

Agnixie: I provided the link, didn't I? Why do you assume I think people are too stupid to read a link? I am not following you here.

The link isn't a source for any of your claims. You posted it as if it was, and so one might reasonably assume that you didn't think anyone would actually read it. My first post to you, I notice, has also been completely ignored except the gay porn part. Are you serious?

[Anarchrusty]

The link isn't a source for any of your claims. You posted it as if it was, and so one might reasonably assume that you didn't think anyone would actually read it. My first post to you, I notice, has also been completely ignored except the gay porn part. Are you serious?

To be fair, I truly suck at computers and I have no idea how to multi quote on this forum. I will take an indepth look at your post now and try to answer the things I missed first time.

And yes, I am serious. Why wouldn't I?

[Sasha]

Tenka,

Off course I have heard of gayporn.

I am bisexual myself, and before I became politically aware I was enjoying porn as such mentioned.
Let me give you an example of bisexual porn: a man and a woman both pleasure another man, both guys pleasure eachother. Sounds good, right? But wait. Who is pleasuring the woman? Why is everyone ignoring her lust? Because she is just a prop. She is there to suck a cock, maybe two, but that is it. Ow yeh, they get to cum all over her.

Now, that may not be physically harming her, BUT it is telling of the way society regards females. She is there for the male, and the male doesn't even have to acknowledge her. Art imitating life? Your call.

Gay porn is an entirely different animal. It shows the equality there is between men, but only one reason for this: a woman is not wanted in those vids. Were they heterosexual men, I can assure you the tables would turn 180 degrees in disfavour of the downtrodden sex here.

Funny thing though that in each and every porn I have seen, no matter how mainstream there is an huge amount of cunilingus and fingering, also strange that it seem the producers go out of their way to include shots of (fake) female orgasms.
Now I can think of a ton off reasons for this but to make any of them fit your discours I would need to stretch them into the ridiculous.

[Anarchrusty]

Psycho, I haven't watched porn in ages (nor am I inclined to anymore) so I have no idea what it is like these days, if it does or doesn't include fingering and anilungus. I really don't care either.
I have seen through what porn really is. And it is bourgoise, class based, mysogenist clapptrapp of the highest order. There is no way to defend it, no matter how many big words one is going to use.

It ultimately depicts only one thing: that women are there for the taking. It makes me vomit!

[Anarchrusty]

Lol @ the claimed connection between animal abuse and beasteality production in Holland.
There is no way you can come up with any connection between these "facts" other than in a way that would put Glenn beck to shame.
No one here is arguing "from their groin" but it seems some are arguing from their arse.

And yeah, source that please.

I resent being compared to Glenn Beck. You do realise he's a Mormon? They are allowed to have several women. Now, would a radical feminist like myself even consider such a thing? No. Coz I don't see women as commodities.

Thanx for the insult.

[Tim Finnegan]

I cannot even begin to express my dissapointment in revolutionaries that uphold such a bourgoise institute as porn.
This really doesn't make any sense whatsoever. In what sense is pornography an "institute" (by which I assume you mean "institution"?) and in what sense is it "bourgeois"? Certainly, the mainstream pornography industry is a bourgeois institution, but the key words there are "mainstream" and "industry", not "pornography". The very same could be said of the mainstream agriculture industry, but I've yet to hear anyone declare that a post-revolutionary society shall be based primarily on filter-feeding.


...a radical feminist like myself...
Ah, so you've given up all pretences of communism, have you? Or do you simply not understand what Radical Feminism is?

[Sasha]

If there is anything bourgeois its your born-again sanctimonius douchebaggery.
Who do you think puts the amateur porn out there? Only evil abusive (ex-) boyfriends and burglars? Come of it already, some women like to make porn, some get an kick of others watching it. Women aren't poor litle baby seals that need your saving. There is a lot wrong with the porn industry but you are nothing better than the puritan anti-porn (in public) conservatives, they want the women dictated and forcible pressed in roles eerie similar as you do.

[agnixie]

I resent being compared to Glenn Beck. You do realise he's a Mormon? They are allowed to have several women. Now, would a radical feminist like myself even consider such a thing? No. Coz I don't see women as commodities.

Thanx for the insult.

Your main objection against Mormons is something the mainstream church of Mormon abandoned in the 19th century?

Also, I don't think polyamorous people see anyone as commodities.

[$lim_$weezy]

How exactly does the filming of any sexual activity with a woman involved depict "that women are there for the taking"? And how does this negatively impact society? And if it somehow did, why should we think that banning pornography is the solution?

Non-coercive correction of sexism (as with anything) is, I think, to be preferred, and it does not involve banning pornography.

[Wanted Man]

Psycho, I haven't watched porn in ages (nor am I inclined to anymore) so I have no idea what it is like these days, if it does or doesn't include fingering and anilungus. I really don't care either.

So basically, you have no idea what you're babbling about. Not that you need to watch a lot of porn to be qualified to speak on the subject, but you really don't seem to know jack shit at all and yet you're still spouting bullshit on it. That's a bit unfair, don't you think? I've never talked to you, nor have I studied your life very well, so surely it would be a bit unfair on my part to just assume that you're a giant cockface and shout that from the rooftops, wouldn't it? Hmm, actually...


I have seen through what porn really is. And it is bourgoise, class based, mysogenist clapptrapp of the highest order. There is no way to defend it, no matter how many big words one is going to use.

I count a few big words here. Troll much? Not that any of them are spelled right, mind you.


I resent being compared to Glenn Beck. You do realise he's a Mormon? They are allowed to have several women. Now, would a radical feminist like myself even consider such a thing? No. Coz I don't see women as commodities.

A bit of religious bigotry never goes amiss, especially when it's based on the "feminist" notion that all forms of polygamy are morally wrong...


Thanx for the insult.

I can imagine you having to say that quite a lot in your life.

[black magick hustla]

I see the PS3 network is still down.
i laughed p, hard at this

[Anarchrusty]

Being a feminist means having to loose all pretenses of being a leftist? WTF? How does it even exclude eachother? If one is against oppression, one is against porn. Period.

And stop calling me a troll. Just because I don't agree with your liberal POV's does not mean I am a troll. I truely resent that! I am finished in this thread.
Thank you all for the crap you've put me through!

[Tim Finnegan]

Being a feminist means having to loose all pretenses of being a leftist? WTF? How does it even exclude eachother?
Radical feminism, dear Anarchrusty, radical feminism. Socialist, anarchist and Marxist feminism are, unsurprisingly, socialist, anarchist and Marxist, respectively, but radical feminism is bourgeois in conception and practice, and, for all its posturing, a derivation of liberal ideology. Do you really think that, when the bombastic Ms. Dworking was proposing her "female Israel", she imagined any sort of workers' state? If she did, she was never keen to publicly suggest as much, and its not as if she was in the habit of moderating her views for the centre.


If one is against oppression, one is against porn. Period.Oh, shit, that works now?

If one is against Nazis, one is against chairs. Period!

If one is against being trampled by elephants, one is against the colour cyan. Period!

If one is against vomiting on kittens, one is against armpit odour. Period!

Ha ha! Hours of fun! :thumbup:

[Anarchrusty]

Yeah yeah, make fun of it all you want but you know damn well the implications that are derived from such consequential matter. The fact remains that while you need a video to beat your meat, that same woman you are fornicating to is having trouble making ends meet and therefor has to resort to being ushered into a shady industry where she will be hit, strangled, pissed on just for the sake of having her kids fed.
If you really think this is justification enough to get a hard on from, I fear for the lifes of your future spouse and kids.

And it is a strawman to try and distract my view on radical feminism to zionism. That is outright demonisation and character assassintion.

[Princess Luna]

Yeah yeah, make fun of it all you want but you know damn well the implications that are derived from such consequential matter. The fact remains that while you need a video to beat your meat, that same woman you are fornicating to is having trouble making ends meet and therefor has to resort to being ushered into a shady industry where she will be hit, strangled, pissed on just for the sake of having her kids fed.
If you really think this is justification enough to get a hard on from, I fear for the lifes of your future spouse and kids.

And it is a strawman to try and distract my view on radical feminism to zionism. That is outright demonisation and character assassintion.
As i have said before, i have never seen a woman hit,strangled, or pissed on in mainstream porn. Also everything else you said has to do with the porn industry, and not porn itself. tell me why "beating my meat" to a homemade video on Youporn is bad?

[Sasha]

where she will be hit, strangled, pissed on

i'm increasingly wondering what kind of porn you watched those eons ago and how the hell you got your hands on it being pre-internet times. now i'm not someone to piss on someone kinks (;)) but that sounds like some pretty outfield stuff you favored...


, I fear for the lifes of your future spouse and kids.said the self titled "radical feminist", surely you must be trolling now right?


And it is a strawman to try and distract my view on radical feminism to zionism. That is outright demonisation and character assassintion.lol wut? who said anything about zionism? you are really as thick as an lampost huh, sory dude but no fake womyns-studies lingo is going to hide that.

[Anarchrusty]

lol wut? who said anything about zionism?

Quote unquote ''Female Israel''.

[agnixie]

If you really think this is justification enough to get a hard on from, I fear for the lifes of your future spouse and kids.


Well that went downhill fast.
I guess I'm like the urban spaceman, in that ridiculous heterocentric, phallocentric, monogamocentric description.


Quote unquote ''Female Israel''.


A rhetorical flourish of Dworkin which had little to do with the Israel-Palestine conflict. She even wrote a whole book about it. Which was lambasted by feminists from the left. And why are most of the separatists straight anyway :rolleyes:

[synthesis]

I don't think it is sexist of a boss to require blowjobs from prospective employees provided the action isn't motivated or enabled by the belief women are inferior. I don't think to ask for blowjobs from women you're in some position of power over means you feel, or that they are made inferior due to being women, but that you feel they are sexually attractive due to being women, and only "inferior" in the due to economic circumstances. Note here, women are obviously economically/socially disadvantaged compared to men, but this therefore the "sexism" related to their economic disadvantage rather than the specific relations in this case. Reading this over I don't think i'm expressing myself too good, but can you try and like, at least attempt to get what i'm saying rather than raging at my sexism or whatever because I really don't intend it to be?

The problem, I think, is that you're drawing too neat of a division between "economic circumstances" and "discrimination." They are inseparable.

[GX.]

This is always problematic, but there exits a strong pro-sex, pro-porn section of the feminist movement that is often ignored by anti-sex/anti-porn feminists If anything all the people who talk about bourgeois feminism are excluding Liberal third wave "pro-sex" feminism from their analysis, as if it doesn't have huge problems of its own. But really, the amount of tangential bullshit about feminism in these threads is overwhelming.


It's stupid to deny this, but patriarchy gets you coming and going. If you oppose porn, you're upholding patriarchy, by arguing that women are helpless, that they can't make their own choices, that sex is something women need to be protected from. If you are pro-porn, you're upholding certain stereotypic roles. What does it mean to oppose or support porn? It covers such a wide range of things I don't know if it's even helpful to speak so broadly. But what is this obsession with developing some definite political position, like everything has to fit into a platform. It wears thin.


The question then is to try and figure out what people would do in a free, non-sexist society. I don't think that's entirely possible, because we don't know what such a society would look like. I wouldn't speak with any certainty about it.


This is true.
Most of the time, it is, but does it really need to be pointed out ad nauseum? Who is arguing the inverse, that censorship should be applied to erotic material involving consenting adults? Anyone? I'm left wondering what half of these posts have to do with anything.

[Sasha]

Quote unquote ''Female Israel''.



Do you really think that, when the bombastic Ms. Dworkin was proposing her "female Israel"

Quote unquote "female"

Quote unquote "Dworkin"

israel as in homeland...

[Tim Finnegan]

Yeah yeah, make fun of it all you want but you know damn well the implications that are derived from such consequential matter. The fact remains that while you need a video to beat your meat, that same woman you are fornicating to is having trouble making ends meet and therefor has to resort to being ushered into a shady industry where she will be hit, strangled, pissed on just for the sake of having her kids fed.
If you really think this is justification enough to get a hard on from, I fear for the lifes of your future spouse and kids.
Right, but if we can set aside your cartoon dystopia for a minute, that isn't actually a reasonably universal description of the production of pornography as it actually exists, is it? Conditions of production are varied, the acts involved in any given production is varied, the motivations of participation are varied; if there's one thing that can be said of porn, it is that it is heterogeneous. What you describe, while certainly something that can and does happen, is neither an essential characteristic or a con temporarily universal characteristic of people screwing in front of a camera, and so does not constitute the basis of an argument against it.

Also, why does your objection to pornography seem to assume that it is exclusively male-on-female hardcore? Where do female-on-female, male-on-male, solo, or softcore fit into all of this?


And it is a strawman to try and distract my view on radical feminism to zionism. That is outright demonisation and character assassintion.Pyscho and Agnixie already adressed this, but, just to clarify, "a female Israel" It was a rather silly proposal that Dworkin made for an armed matriarchal state as a refuge for women; Israel was taken as an analogy because of its nominal role as a refuge for Jews from anti-Semitism. I meant to make no reference of any sort to Zionism.

[Anarchrusty]

Tim, I've already adressed that in my post about bisexual porn. It is somewhere in this thread. Also, it is impossible to personally go to each porn set to see if the conditions are right, but in general it will be as I stated. Read any interview with an exporn star and you'l see the horrid conditions they were made to endure. Look up Linda Loveless, she is an actress from ye4steryears and she will be perfectly able to describe to subtle and not so subtle maniopulative sociopathic demeanor behavioral stirrings of the pot that are handed down generation to generation in an increasingly hatefull society.

Edit: is there really someone called Dorkin, or is that just a way to tease me?

[Tim Finnegan]

Tim, I've already adressed that in my post about bisexual porn. It is somewhere in this thread.
I read that, but it's not what I'm talking about. It still assumes the pornography necessarily takes the form of the domination of women by men, when I'm observing that porn exists which by definition cannot take such a form.


Also, it is impossible to personally go to each porn set to see if the conditions are right, but in general it will be as I stated.Baseless horseshit.


Read any interview with an exporn star and you'l see the horrid conditions they were made to endure.I've read a few, and this is false. Conditions are, as I said, varied.


Look up Linda Loveless, she is an actress from ye4steryears and she will be perfectly able to describe to subtle and not so subtle maniopulative sociopathic demeanor behavioral stirrings of the pot that are handed down generation to generation in an increasingly hatefull society.It is impossible to infer universalities from a single experience.


Edit: is there really someone called Dorkin, or is that just a way to tease me?Dworkin, and, yes, she's rather well known. I'm surprised you haven't heard of her, because you sound like you'd get on like a house on fire.

[agnixie]

Tim, I've already adressed that in my post about bisexual porn. It is somewhere in this thread. Also, it is impossible to personally go to each porn set to see if the conditions are right, but in general it will be as I stated. Read any interview with an exporn star and you'l see the horrid conditions they were made to endure. Look up Linda Loveless, she is an actress from ye4steryears and she will be perfectly able to describe to subtle and not so subtle maniopulative sociopathic demeanor behavioral stirrings of the pot that are handed down generation to generation in an increasingly hatefull society.

Edit: is there really someone called Dorkin, or is that just a way to tease me?

I can tell you I've never seen a porn set in the conditions Linda Lovelace described, even if I'm pretty sure there are surely quite a few. That's against that few that sex workers are fighting. Bourgeois feminists instead take that and derive that all sex workers are victims in need of saviours.

[Anarchrusty]

It is impossible to infer universalities from a single experience.




But neither can you explorate from your single good porn performance, that every set will be as the one you did. Kinda nullifies what you say, doesn't it?

[agnixie]

But neither can you explorate from your single good porn performance, that every set will be as the one you did. Kinda nullifies what you say, doesn't it?

We're not the ones inferring universals, otherwise I wouldn't be calling for sex worker self organization and we wouldn't be working towards setting up ground level organizations to help those who want to leave to leave if they want to.

[Tim Finnegan]

But neither can you explorate from your single good porn performance, that every set will be as the one you did. Kinda nullifies what you say, doesn't it?
Why- did I say that every porn set will be ideal? It would certainly contradict my previously stated opinions if I had done done so.

[Sasha]

ugh, it was an matter of time linda lovelace would show up.
besides that i doubt the testimonies of any born again fundi go and read up on the set conditions of the original "texas chainsaw massacre" or "apocalypse now", you want to argue that they are representative for the whole of the non-porn film industry?

[Anarchrusty]

Why- did I say that every porn set will be ideal? It would certainly contradict my previously stated opinions if I had done done so.

Wouldn't you say the same goes for me? Difference is though, I am ready to admit that I was wrong in the past with watching oppression in the act.

[Tim Finnegan]

Wouldn't you say the same goes for me?
Given that you are arguing that the vast majority of porn sets conform to your nightmarish vision of them, and not just by contemporary circumstances but by some essential characteristic of the genre, I have to say that I would not.


Difference is though, I am ready to admit that I was wrong in the past with watching oppression in the act.
Ah, so you now masturbate over your own concerted guilt instead? :rolleyes:

[Anarchrusty]

I really don't have to masturbate that often anymore, seeing that my fantasy has come true.
But if I had to, it wouldn't be over some imagined guilt. I'd masturbate over beautiful scenes with roses and candles.

[Anarchrusty]

Just for the record: it amazes me how many of you socalled revolutionaries are quick to abandon genderism.... in wait what where? The DISCRIMINATION forum, under FEMALE STRUGGLES!!!

You all know how to think of yourselves, so just use porn and your erection to minimize women AGAIN.

[$lim_$weezy]

Well, you haven't really refuted any of TimFinnegan's arguments, and then just insist that you are correct in the absence of any reasoning. Then, you accuse those who disagree with you of not being really leftist and of not caring about women's struggles...

Care to explain?

[RedSunRising]

Well, you haven't really refuted any of TimFinnegan's arguments, and then just insist that you are correct in the absence of any reasoning. Then, you accuse those who disagree with you of not being really leftist and of not caring about women's struggles...


Because this isnt some interesting academic debate, it effects real people and well lets face it there are a lot of libertarians and other defenders of capitalism out there who are a lot more intelligent than I am, could trash me in an argument but they still wouldnt be able to change my mind about capitalism because my views on it are drawn from own life and not just what makes sense on paper. Same with porn but more so. If you dont get why its ruinous and degrading I or anyone else I doubt will be able to persuade you.

[agnixie]

Just for the record: it amazes me how many of you socalled revolutionaries are quick to abandon genderism.... in wait what where? The DISCRIMINATION forum, under FEMALE STRUGGLES!!!

You all know how to think of yourselves, so just use porn and your erection to minimize women AGAIN.

You are too blatantly a troll.

[Sasha]

I really don't have to masturbate that often anymore, seeing that my fantasy has come true.
But if I had to, it wouldn't be over some imagined guilt. I'd masturbate over beautiful scenes with roses and candles.

you really didnt write that did you? talking about hetero-normativity... anyone have an bucket?
so please explain how are your roses and candles less sexist then mine (an tattoo'd skinhead bouncer) being tied down and dominated by an strong, independent women?


Just for the record: it amazes me how many of you socalled revolutionaries are quick to abandon genderism.... in wait what where? The DISCRIMINATION forum, under FEMALE STRUGGLES!!!

You all know how to think of yourselves, so just use porn and your erection to minimize women AGAIN.

dude, i probably have read more "genderism" and other feminist theory and for sure understood it better than you ever will. i on te other hand also actually know women (and men) who work or used to work in the business, who set up their own unions and even workers-collectives.
like said already a thousand times before in this thread we readily agree there is an problem with the porn-industry, its the industry part, i.e. capitalism, and just simply not the porn part, an position you throughout this thread have refused to engage.
anyone attacking porn on being porn and not on the particularity viscous brand of capitalism that dominates the industry can spout all the "genderism" lingo they want but is nothing better/else than an puritan de-humanising women to pure victims in need of knights in shining armor.

[Anarchrusty]

What, for highlighting the forum and the subforum I am being a troll? Get over yourself and actually participate in a discussion.

[Sasha]

throughout this thread agnixie has constantly participated in discussion, you on the other hand seem to limit yourself to singing "dont confuse me with the facts when my minds is made up" post after post.

[Tim Finnegan]

Because this isnt some interesting academic debate, it effects real people and well lets face it there are a lot of libertarians and other defenders of capitalism out there who are a lot more intelligent than I am, could trash me in an argument but they still wouldnt be able to change my mind about capitalism because my views on it are drawn from own life and not just what makes sense on paper. Same with porn but more so. If you dont get why its ruinous and degrading I or anyone else I doubt will be able to persuade you.
Ah, so now we have it out in the open: "I hold my views not because they have objective merit, but because they are my own." At least you've decided to be halfway honest about it, if only halfway. :rolleyes:


like said already a thousand times before in this thread we readily agree there is an problem with the porn-industry, its the industry part, i.e. capitalism, and just simply not the porn part, an position you throughout this thread have refused to engage.
This bears repeating. Nobody here- or, at least, nobody worth listening to- has denied that there are problematic elements in the porn industry, that these elements are widespread and often near-ubiquitous, and that they should be recognised and challenged. What we contest, rather, is that they are absolute and that they are essential elements of pornography itself, an objection we raised on empirical grounds, i.e. the fact that the observed problems are demonstrably non-universal. That is not something which the anti-porn camp has not, in this thread, offered a satisfying response to.


You all know how to think of yourselves, so just use porn and your erection to minimize women AGAIN.
What does this even mean? I don't know if you're a troll or not, but, dear lord, your grasp of feminist terminology and theory is horrible at best.

[RedSunRising]

Ah, so now we have it out in the open: "I hold my views not because they have objective merit, but because they are my own." At least you've decided to be halfway honest about it, if only halfway. :rolleyes:

No I hold my views based on my own observations, experiances and those of whom I trust.

[Tim Finnegan]

No I hold my views based on my own observations, experiances and those of whom I trust.
I thought you were a Marxist?

[GX.]

What we contest, rather, is that they are absolute and that they are essential elements of pornography itself, an objection we raised on empirical grounds, i.e. the fact that the observed problems are demonstrably non-universal But one could argue that how we categorize and practice sexuality is fundamentally problematic. This is really what the second wave feminists were getting at albeit in a limited (and in terms of political tactics utopian) fashion compared to say queer theory (though that's not to say queer theory doesn't have problems too)

[Tim Finnegan]

But one could argue that how we categorize and practice sexuality is fundamentally problematic. This is really what the second wave feminists were getting at albeit in a limited (and in terms of political tactics utopian) fashion compared to say queer theory (though that's not to say queer theory doesn't have problems too)
Could you elaborate on this? I think I have an inkling of what you're talking about, but I'll admit that I'm not really sure, or of how it relates to my previous comment.

[$lim_$weezy]

Because this isnt some interesting academic debate, it effects real people and well lets face it there are a lot of libertarians and other defenders of capitalism out there who are a lot more intelligent than I am, could trash me in an argument but they still wouldnt be able to change my mind about capitalism because my views on it are drawn from own life and not just what makes sense on paper. Same with porn but more so. If you dont get why its ruinous and degrading I or anyone else I doubt will be able to persuade you.

Eh, sorry, I'm not sure I can take such an anti-rational attitude seriously. Of course at some point you have to make value-judgements, but that's just unreasonable. I think it's important to make logical sense... Anyway, I don't want to derail the thread more than it already has been, and into some debate over rationalism and emotion at that.

[kahimikarie]

maybe faraway from where the topic went but amateur porn made by couples came up as being non-problematic as compared to industry made porn. it's still problematic. there's an entire genre of porn dedicated to "ex girlfriend revenge" where men post videos/pictures they made with their ex-girlfriends without their consent. apparently this is a big problem, like there was a study done and it was something like 40% of college students reported being shown nude pictures/videos of someone's partner/ex-partner without their consent.

and pro-porn people will often say that anti-porn advocates focus on the "worst" or most hardcore pornography only and that most pornography or a lot of pornography isn't violent/degrading, but there was a major study done (watch "the price of pleasure") where academics went through at random some of the top selling 100 porn videos and almost all of them like 90+ percent had scenes of violence or degrading slurs even if they are not as extreme as something like "max hardcore."

[Tim Finnegan]

maybe faraway from where the topic went but amateur porn made by couples came up as being non-problematic as compared to industry made porn. it's still problematic. there's an entire genre of porn dedicated to "ex girlfriend revenge" where men post videos/pictures they made with their ex-girlfriends without their consent. apparently this is a big problem, like there was a study done and it was something like 40% of college students reported being shown nude pictures/videos of someone's partner/ex-partner without their consent.
That's certainly problematic, but because it constitutes an invasion of privacy, not because of the particular form of the material. Posting their old diary entries would probably be an even great infringement, but nobody considers the simple fact of diaries problematic as a result.


and pro-porn people will often say that anti-porn advocates focus on the "worst" or most hardcore pornography only and that most pornography or a lot of pornography isn't violent/degrading, but there was a major study done (watch "the price of pleasure") where academics went through at random some of the top selling 100 porn videos and almost all of them like 90+ percent had scenes of violence or degrading slurs even if they are not as extreme as something like "max hardcore.""Top 100 porn videos" isn't a category which can be understood to represent the general state of modern porn, especially in an era in which most porn is watched on-line meaning that A) the "Long Tail" becomes of some relevance and B) it doesn't track the primary method of distribution, i.e. the internet, so it doesn't really reflect the actual pornography being produced and consumed. Furthermore, sales in themselves don't actually reflect the distribution of sales so even ignoring the above points, it's difficult to infer any grand statement on the social effects of pornography from such a list. You don't get to waive basic rigour just because you're on a crusade.

Oh, and I call bullshit on that on the "Max Hardcore" bit. If Max Hardcore's filth was run of the mill, then he wouldn't be Max Hardcore. I'm willing to accept that these academics encountered genuinely unsavoury material, but exaggeration does you no favours.

[Tenka]

There is really nothing wrong with hardcore, "violent" and "degrading" porn if the actors are willing, trained for it, and can receive on-the-spot medical attention in the off-chance that something goes wrong. Of course there will always be sex acts with too high a risk of injury to be acceptable in live-action pornography (or that are just plain impossible) -- that is why we have anime, erotic novels, special effects, and anime.

There is nothing inherently sexist about degradation in pornography, or anywhere. The overrepresentation of women in "degrading" positions for porn films is no doubt a terrible symptom of sexist society, however, and I'd like to see it stopped.

[chegitz guevara]

FACT: since porn has become mainstream, rape has trippled. Long time safe cities like Oslo and Sweden are nowadays the capitals of sexual violence against women which is directly linked to a capitalist approach to commercialised pornography and sex ads.
In Holland, another ''liberal'' porn country, instances of animal torture have gone through the roof and you know what? They are the foremost producers and distributors of animal sex video's.

Coincidence is not causality.

[chegitz guevara]

If anything all the people who talk about bourgeois feminism are excluding Liberal third wave "pro-sex" feminism from their analysis, as if it doesn't have huge problems of its own. But really, the amount of tangential bullshit about feminism in these threads is overwhelming.

Nearly all of the pro-sex feminists I know and know of are communists, anarchists, and socialists.


What does it mean to oppose or support porn?

Isn't that what this whole thread is debating? It's rather disingenuous to try to ask such a question now.


I don't think that's entirely possible, because we don't know what such a society would look like. I wouldn't speak with any certainty about it.

Of course it is. There are going to be nine or ten billion people who are free and liberated from bourgeois, feudal, and religious morality. They are going to fuck their brains out. The real question is, how long will it be before public fucking becomes socially acceptable.


Most of the time, it is, but does it really need to be pointed out ad nauseum? Who is arguing the inverse, that censorship should be applied to erotic material involving consenting adults? Anyone? I'm left wondering what half of these posts have to do with anything.

Well, the people here who oppose porn certainly seem to be arguing for censoring it. Again, it's rather disingenuous in the middle of a discussion to act as if it isn't being discussed.

[Hiero]

It's arbitrary moralism in a different, academic, package.

Are some workers traumatized from their experiences in the porn industry? Most likely. They are traumatized in other industries too. How many miners are traumatized when a coworker has a limb crushed or dies in front of them? How many steel mill workers are traumatized when a boiler blows up and scalds the skin off coworkers around them? How many retail workers are traumatized by robberies of the stores they work in?

Are some workers injured in porn? Certainly. How many miners get black lung? How many are killed by widow makers? How many steel mill workers get hit by train cars, killed by chemicals, burns, etc.? How many retail workers injure their backs lifting heavy boxes or are shot in robberies?

Why single out porn? In the last three threads that have arose around this subject I've asked for someone to give an explanation of why porn is special, outside of quasi-religious crap about sex being "sacred." There hasn't been a single one, because their isn't a single one.

As the article I linked to pointed out, sex workers don't sell their bodies (leaving aside the people who are actually sold as human slaves). They sell services, which is why there are different rates for different levels of work. The purchaser doesn't take possession of the worker's body, they don't become owners of it, they don't take it home with them. They can be self-employed or they can be employed by someone else, in which case they are exploited like other workers. There is no fundamental difference in working with your hands on cars in an auto factory or working with your hands on penises in a massage parlor.

On "the connection of men who watch porn" being effected by not having to care about the people they're watching:

1. This again reeks of the subjective, moral, arbitrary "sacredness of sex" argument.

2. One third of porn is watched by women, and that percentage continues to grow.

3. The fastest growing and most popular type of porn is made by amateurs like involved couples who are not producing it for monetary gain.

4. If we're looking at porn as entertainment, we needn't expect that the viewer would be expected to "care about" all of the actors involved. Do you "care about" all the characters in a movie you watch? Do you "care about" all the musicians in a song you listen to?

PS. I don't know what "ideaology" is, and I'm not a "Marxist," but nothing in the OP or the posts defending it is even remotely related to the kind of materialist approach Karl Marx would have taken on this or any other subject.

Sorry for the late reply. I don't have alot of time.

I never took a religious approach to porn, I was also taking a critical or inquisitive approach. I never made a directive statement that "porn is bad" "porn stars sell their body" "all porn stars are traumatised". I followed up on the questions posed by the original post, which asked "how many porn stars are traumatised?".

Secondly I have moved away from a strictly materialist approach, which only looks as people in their structural position. That if someone is a worker they designates the same level of expliotation and secondly the same experiences of pain, humiliation, stress etc. The fact is that each occupation is different in regards to experience. While we can outlay a structural commonality, the experience of say a sex worker, miner, janitor or community worker are different. People 'feel' in relation to their personal experience. This can not be elavated to an objective level to so that all workers "fundementally" feel the same. A miner's health instance can become a affected to fatal levels by his or her work, they can experience trauma because they have had a workmate killed or stress from working underground for a long period of time. But these experiences are fundementally different to sex work, the experiences felt through the body are fundementally different. If you can't see the difference between having your leg crushed and being penetrated then you have a huge problem of the senses.

Naturally the experiences of porn or any other sex work would be different to that of any other work. The site of body as the site of experiences designates the fundemental difference. It would be highly interesting to investigate the lower levels of porn, thoose who are not stars, and the amatuer pornographers for a comparative study.

[GX.]

Nearly all of the pro-sex feminists I know and know of are communists, anarchists, and socialists. Okay, but the whole sex-positive movement has largely focused on negotiating liberties and concessions through the capitalist state. That isn't to reject reformist demands, of course, but capitalism and patriarchy are the forces that regulate sexuality; they're the vanguard of "anti-sex" not cranky radfems. This way of framing things completely ignores the root of the problem.


Of course it is. There are going to be nine or ten billion people who are free and liberated from bourgeois, feudal, and religious morality. They are going to fuck their brains out. The real question is, how long will it be before public fucking becomes socially acceptable. But amidst all this fucking it seems likely that people will start to re-imagine how they fuck, what kind of fucking they record or depict, how they distribute said recordings, etc. in ways that nobody would have ever anticipated.

[Chicxulub]

Does anyone else find it extremely sexist that a thread where mostly men talk about their sexual fetishes and kinks is in a section of a website for leftist politics titled "woman's struggle"?

are the male users of this site what the women struggling against? seems so.


Sorry, primal urge is the wrong word, I got lost in translation.
Disregard the primal bit.

your english is a bit too good for it to be lost in translation. I've been reading this thread for the last while (it was what inspired me to create an account) and your english is better than mine even.

is it possible that "primal" was what you meant to say, but that you retracted it when it became apparent how unbelievably sexist what you said was?

[Chicxulub]

Sorry, primal urge is the wrong word, I got lost in translation.
Disregard the primal bit.

your english is a bit too good for it to be lost in translation. I've been reading this thread for the last while (it was what inspired me to create an account) and your english is better than mine even.

is it possible that "primal" was what you meant to say, but that you retracted it when it became apparent how unbelievably sexist what you said was?

[Tim Finnegan]

Does anyone else find it extremely sexist that a thread where mostly men talk about their sexual fetishes and kinks is in a section of a website for leftist politics titled "woman's struggle"?
I don't think that this has happened at all. There have been men and women on all sides of the various debates in this thread, and the only person whose mentioned their kinks is Pyscho, and that entirely within reasonable context. Are you actually aware of the genders of most posters here, or are you making assumptions based on their positions on the issues?


are the male users of this site what the women struggling against? seems so.There's a few female posters who would seem to regard the male anti-porners as something to struggle against, certainly. Opinions on this are rather more nuanced and divided than you seem to realise.

[agnixie]

Does anyone else find it extremely sexist that a thread where mostly men talk about their sexual fetishes and kinks is in a section of a website for leftist politics titled "woman's struggle"?

are the male users of this site what the women struggling against? seems so.


I saw only one case of fetishes being discussed in a "this is my fetish" by a member whose gender I only learned that way.

I saw a lot of male white knighting, but I see you don't seem to see it as a problem.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Does anyone else find it extremely sexist that a thread where mostly men talk about their sexual fetishes and kinks is in a section of a website for leftist politics titled "woman's struggle"?
I'm a woman and I'm pretty open about my fetishes on here.



are the male users of this site what the women struggling against? seems so.
Um, no... I for one am not against men, I'm against patriarchy.

Although on an emotional level I have had feelings of resentment towards men at times. But that was just reacting to having been hurt and victimized by men. Not only am I not against men, I have a wonderful relationship with my bf. I'm sure that I'm not the only woman on here that is not against men but I'll let them speak for themselves.

[Meridian]

Does anyone else find it extremely sexist that a thread where mostly men talk about their sexual fetishes and kinks is in a section of a website for leftist politics titled "woman's struggle"?
I think it's only you who finds that sexist, but I could be wrong.

[Sasha]

I saw only one case of fetishes being discussed in a "this is my fetish" by a member whose gender I only learned that way.

don't forget the roses and candles dude, that is one far out kink there for an supposed radical feminist.

[Sasha]

I think it's only you who finds that sexist, but I could be wrong.

Apparently people still have problems to wrap their head around the fact that sexism, even in an thread about porn, has nothing to do with sex.

[Red Future]

Why is Psycho being accused of Sexism? He has membership of the Feminist group so is clearly against patriachy? :confused:

[TheLeftStar]

I think porn is good and liberating. It's how some people like to consume sexually explicit material in form of literature, photos and videos. I don't accept the contention that porn is demeaning to women. Nobody does porn due to force, they act in it out of their own free will

[chegitz guevara]

Okay, but the whole sex-positive movement has largely focused on negotiating liberties and concessions through the capitalist state. That isn't to reject reformist demands, of course, but capitalism and patriarchy are the forces that regulate sexuality; they're the vanguard of "anti-sex" not cranky radfems. This way of framing things completely ignores the root of the problem.

True, but everything we do inside capitalism is a temporary concession to its power and the need to continue existing until we can get rid of it. Sex isn't special in that regard. Until we can break down the walls of this prison, I'd like to not be sleeping on the cell floor in my own filth if I can. That I want a pillow doesn't mean I'll be content with a pillow.


But amidst all this fucking it seems likely that people will start to re-imagine how they fuck, what kind of fucking they record or depict, how they distribute said recordings, etc. in ways that nobody would have ever anticipated.

Absolutely I agree.