Antisemitism on the left

[727Goon]

I've always been interested in discriminatory attitudes within the left. I'm particularly interested in whether there is a problem of antisemitism or not because of what I've experienced as someone with Cuban blood. I think there is generally a shitty attitude towards Cuban-Americans in general on the left because many leftists think of all of us as right wing gusanos. Even here in the Tampa Bay area, with the Cuban working class history of Ybor city that dates back 50 years before the Cuban revolution leftists still have that attitude. The racism seems to come from shitty politics more than your average person who is racist because of the influence of the white power structure. I'm wondering if leftists turning anti Zionism into racism is a problem in leftist circles. Don't get me wrong I'm a staunch opponent to zionism and israel and I'm not saying anti-zionism is anti-semitism like so many two bit critics of it do. From time to time on here I see hints of conspiracy shit, like how Israel has disproportionate influence among imperialist states and how the US is doing Israels will and not vice versa. This kind of shit is suspicious to me and sounds a lot like white nationalist or new black panther party type bullshit. Anyways is antisemitism as the result of shitty politics a problem on the left? Jewish leftists have you ever been discriminated against in a leftist setting or seen antisemitism?

[Coggeh]

I think Jewish Socialists may have been discriminated against by some on the left but really every time i see it, its from a new leftist someone who wouldn't consider himself to hate jews or someone who equates jews to the actions of Israel. Thats just more to do with poor understanding of the class struggle and of equating religion or race to the crimes of a certain state. You get it also a lot in terms of many new leftists equating Americans to the imperialist actions of their country. Organisation wise i know of none who do though

[MarxSchmarx]

In my experience, every group I've encountered in countries with a sizeable Jewish minority actively struggles against anti-semetic attitudes, but there is a residual element of ambivalence about certain subcultures or institutions that are primarily Jewish that is inherited from the culture at large. For example, in the United States one often encounters derision for stuff as being "so New York". This in itself isn't too harmful, until we realize that often what Americans often mean by that is tends to be a blend of intellectual occupations, high culture, cosmopolitanism, secularism/materialism, urbanism, and so on, a combination that is distinctly and arguably uniquely perceived to be associated only with Jewish Americans. Not to mention that New York has a massive population of Jews.

This is just one example, but there are many others and some even less subtle, where people unconsciously incorporate antisemitism into their behavior and speech. And it's worth reiterating that these are no worse than the prevailing social sentiments. Virtually all leftists groups if anything are much likelier to be less anti-semitic than any random sample of people from their community. It's just that some groups are better than others at calling people out on it and actively struggling against these attitudes.

[lines]

From time to time on here I see hints of conspiracy shit, like how Israel has disproportionate influence among imperialist states and how the US is doing Israels will and not vice versa. This kind of shit is suspicious to me and sounds a lot like white nationalist or new black panther party type bullshit. Anyways is antisemitism as the result of shitty politics a problem on the left? Jewish leftists have you ever been discriminated against in a leftist setting or seen antisemitism?

Well lets talk facts. Israel gives the USA no money. Israel has no oil. Israel does nothing for the USA. The friendship the USA has with Israel damages the relationship the USA has with the countries that do have oil.

American capitalist institutions are accepted by the arab world, israel does nothing to help American capitalism. Arab states already accept capitalism.

Israel not only does nothing for the USA, the USA's relationship with Israel is damaging to the USA. So this idea that Israel is somehow serving the interests of the USA is silly at best.

Lets look at what the USA is doing for Israel. The USA vetoes tons of resolutions against Israel at the UN. The USA gives Israel billions of dollars every year. The USA gives Israel weapons.

So empirically speaking the USA helps Israel even though it hurts itself in the process of helping it. I'm not going to speculate on why the USA is doing that though.

But for the record I am not anti-zionist, I am not zionist either. I am not happy seeing the USA support Israel though. I wouldn't want USA to support either side though.

As for anti-semitism on the left I really have no idea what that means. The left has traditionally been responsible for protecting the jews from nazis. "Uncle Joe" Stalin was responsible for saving the jews from Hitler, this was a tremendous achievement by Russia and the jewish people are eternally indebted to Russia for saving their lives.

The left has always fought against all racism and prejudice.

[CHEtheLIBERATOR]

As for the Cuban thing it does suck that you do that but it's not far out of reason. As for anti semitism I really don't think there's that many.I think alot of people misconstrue anti Zionism for anti semitism.

ZIONISM IS ANTI SEMITISM

[bailey_187]

Anti-semitism was used in some of the Eastern Bloc states, Poland being a notable example.

[RedSunRising]

Anti-semitism was used in some of the Eastern Bloc states, Poland being a notable example.

Anti-semitism popped it head up after being battered down during Stalin's time, after Stalin was gone it exploded, many even so-called "Anti-Revisionists" in modern day Russia believe in global jewish conspiracies, etc. "lines" labels Irish Republicanism out and out sectarianism and ignores anti-semitism in the USSR? Weird.

[The Man]

I usually get 'insulted' in someway by History Nuts in my school because I am a Communist, and I have a Jewish girlfriend. Therefore, they think that it gives more evidence to the 'Marxist Jewish Conspiracy'. :thumbdown:

[bailey_187]

^^Really? Kids at ur school beleive in a the Judeo-Communist conspiracy? :rolleyes:

[The Man]

^^Really? Kids at ur school beleive in a the Judeo-Communist conspiracy? :rolleyes:

Some actually do. It's pretty funny to listen to, sometimes. One of the kids at my school who believe that Communism is a Jewish Conspiracy, is also a religious nut. I asked him "If you 'God' loves people so much, than why are all of the African kids starving?", he then replied "Because, obviously, they did something wrong. So god doesn't like them."

[Dr Mindbender]

The whole Jewish-communist conspiracy thing makes me laugh when you consider that Israel is perhaps one of the most anti communist countries.

[The Man]

The whole Jewish-communist conspiracy thing makes me laugh when you consider that Israel is perhaps one of the most anti communist countries.

Yeah, I do make some Anti-Zionist rants in history class (Again, I'm not against Jews), yet they still say they that It's a Jewish-Conspiracy:laugh:

[Revolutionair]

http://rlv.zcache.com/hapoel_haifa_old_fashion_jersy_tshirt-p2355279611856224963g4x_400.jpg

Or do you mean the government of Israel?

[Jimmie Higgins]

Well lets talk facts. Israel gives the USA no money. Israel has no oil. Israel does nothing for the USA. The friendship the USA has with Israel damages the relationship the USA has with the countries that do have oil.All this could be said about Vietnam or Afghanistan too - and Colombia to a lesser degree. The US doesn't need to directly steal resources or get a direct financial benefit to try and push its order onto other countries, but in the case of Israel, the US does directly need the country to enforce its interests in the region.

Israel was a balance against the USSR and the Arab Nationalism of Nasser. Now it is still the stick to keep Iran in line, a justification for continued US military pretense in the region, and a destabilizing force simply keeping other countries in line and ensuring the dictators in neighboring countries have an excuse to keep doing business with the west despite the anger of their populations.

There is no "lobby" or secret interests that can easily sway the US to peruse foreign policies that are not in the US ruling class' interests. The US supports Israel for the same reason it supports South Korea or Colombia - strategic influence in an important political or resource-rich region.

[The Man]

http://rlv.zcache.com/hapoel_haifa_old_fashion_jersy_tshirt-p2355279611856224963g4x_400.jpg

Or do you mean the government of Israel?

The Government of Israel is what I meant.

[Aurora]

Anti-semitism popped it head up after being battered down during Stalin's time, after Stalin was gone it exploded
Nonsense, i presume you've never heard the phrase 'rootless cosmopolitan'?

[Sasha]

As for the Cuban thing it does suck that you do that but it's not far out of reason. As for anti semitism I really don't think there's that many.I think alot of people misconstrue anti Zionism for anti semitism.

ZIONISM IS ANTI SEMITISM

Mhmm, I guess those swastikas that where painted on my front door and the pissing through the letter box when I was an kid was not because my mom has an Jewish name but because she has an zionist name... same with those firebombs against the synagogue, how stupid of us to decry it as anti-semitism while we should have applauded it as brave anti-zionism...
Good to know...
Sadly your already banned but I guess I could just ban you again for good measure.

[lines]

All this could be said about Vietnam or Afghanistan too - and Colombia to a lesser degree. The US doesn't need to directly steal resources or get a direct financial benefit to try and push its order onto other countries, but in the case of Israel, the US does directly need the country to enforce its interests in the region.

And what does Israel do specifically, can you name some specific things Israel does that enforces a USA interest in the middle east. Please no vague nothings just real events please.



Israel was a balance against the USSR and the Arab Nationalism of Nasser. Now it is still the stick to keep Iran in line, a justification for continued US military pretense in the region, and a destabilizing force simply keeping other countries in line and ensuring the dictators in neighboring countries have an excuse to keep doing business with the west despite the anger of their populations.

OK Israel is a stick to keep Iran in line? What?

And then your trying to say its there specifically to destabilize the region so that the West can do business with leaders?

The west is always going to be doing business in the region because they need the west because its western companies that have the top notch oil extraction capabilities.

This line of reasoning your pushing is so convoluted and just doesn't hold up to any sort of scrutiny.


There is no "lobby" or secret interests that can easily sway the US to peruse foreign policies that are not in the US ruling class' interests. The US supports Israel for the same reason it supports South Korea or Colombia - strategic influence in an important political or resource-rich region.

I don't know what makes The USA support Israel all I know is that the support for Israel by the USA serves no USA interest. Israel is not a land with a lot of oil.

Look I got no problem with Israel personally. It's just a country that does nothing good for the USA and in fact it's been a drain on the USA resources for many years.

Instead of sending billions to Israel we should be sending billions to poor Americans, many people in America are facing financial difficulty and Israel is getting aid when it should be Americans getting the aid!!!

America should be neutral towards Israel and not choose any sides in some ethnic conflict in a foreign land. I am not interested in supporting a ethnic based nation founded on a blood and soil ideology. Sorry I do not want to be a tool in someone else's race war .

America needs to stay out of it, no aid for Israel.....

Yes to aid for the poor of America.

[lines]

As for the Cuban thing it does suck that you do that but it's not far out of reason. As for anti semitism I really don't think there's that many.I think alot of people misconstrue anti Zionism for anti semitism.

ZIONISM IS ANTI SEMITISM
Mhmm, I guess those swastikas that where painted on my front door and the pissing through the letter box when I was an kid was not because my mom has an Jewish name but because she has an zionist name... same with those firebombs against the synagogue, how stupid of us to decry it as anti-semitism while we should have applauded it as brave anti-zionism...
Good to know...
Sadly your already banned but I guess I could just ban you again for good measure.

I'm pretty sure that guy who said that zionism was anti-semitism didn't mean it the way you interpreted.

My guess is that he was saying that technically speaking the arab palestinian population are a semitic people.

And he was implying that zionism was in some ways hostile to those people. As for zionism being hostile to arab I do not think that zionism necessarily has to be negative towards palestinians. I believe there is a possibility of peace between zionism and palestinians.

The truth is is that jews are not semites, jews are white. Every single jewish person I have ever met in my life does not look like an arab, they look white.

The word anti-semitic is not a very good term because the meaning of it is non-sense. Anti-semitic should mean being anti-arab. Instead it is used to mean being exclusively anti-jew. If anti-semitism was used to refer to being both anti-jew and anti-arab that would be slightly better. But jews just don't look semitic at this stage in their history, maybe at some point they were semites but after mixing with European populations for so long they just are not semites anymore. They are now white for the most part(I understand there are jews of all races but a majority of jews are white).

[Tim Finnegan]

The truth is is that jews are not semites, jews are white. Every single jewish person I have ever met in my life does not look like an arab, they look white.
Just for the record... That's a misleading claim. Most American Jews are Ashkenazi, meaning that their ancestry within the last thousand years or so is primarily rooted in Central and Eastern Europe. They do not represent the totality of the international Jewish population, and are a minority within Israel itself; 3-4 million, living alongside 1-1.5 million Sephardic Jews, who come from the Iberian peninsular and have a "Mediterranean" appearance and complexion, around 4 million Mizrahi Jews, who come from across the Middle East and resemble other Semitic populations, and a number of minor communities from the Middle East, Europe, South Asia, and Africa. There's actually a big problem in Israel with inter-Jewish racism, the Mizrahi Jews and South Asian Jews being viewed by many Ashkenazi as uncivilised and little better than Arabs, and the African Jews even worse.


The word anti-semitic is not a very good term because the meaning of it is non-sense. Anti-semitic should mean being anti-arab. Instead it is used to mean being exclusively anti-jew. If anti-semitism was used to refer to being both anti-jew and anti-arab that would be slightly better. But jews just don't look semitic at this stage in their history, maybe at some point they were semites but after mixing with European populations for so long they just are not semites anymore."Anti-Semitism" is an unfortunate holdover of 19th race science, in which various ethnic groups were appended often spurious labels to justify categorisations that typically owed more to politically convenience and cultural prejudice than even a serious linguistic genealogy. (For example, a century or so ago I would have been variously regarded as "Nordic", "Alpine" or "Mediterranean"- and in a few memorable cases, "Iberian Negroid"- depending on exactly how the race-quack in question felt about the Irish, and how they went about rationalising it.) The labelling of Jews as "Semitic" came from such classifications, and stuck because it served as a usual descriptor of ethnically or racially-motivated anti-Jewish sentiment, as opposed to the more religiously motivated "anti-Judaism". The etymology is unideal, but the phenomenon to which it refers it deserving of a unique label, given that it is a recurring phenomenon across Western, and carries various key characteristics regardless of the particular ethnicity of the Jews or non-Jews involved.

[agnixie]

I'm pretty sure that guy who said that zionism was anti-semitism didn't mean it the way you interpreted.
Banned dude was a troll. But let's dissect. I skipped the interpretation of his stuff because it assumes he had anything to say apart from trolling.



My guess is that he was saying that technically speaking the arab palestinian population are a semitic people.
True



The truth is is that jews are not semites, jews are white. Every single jewish person I have ever met in my life does not look like an arab, they look white.

False; you either don't know enough arabs or don't know enough jews, and certainly don't know the history of the term semite. Or are one of those people who think that arabs or hispanics are somehow radically different, which they mostly are not. While there was intermarriage, for the most part, most jewish groups didn't tend to intermarry much unless they assimilated. Whatever it is, fail.



The word anti-semitic is not a very good term because the meaning of it is non-sense. Anti-semitic should mean being anti-arab. Instead it is used to mean being exclusively anti-jew. If anti-semitism was used to refer to being both anti-jew and anti-arab that would be slightly better. But jews just don't look semitic at this stage in their history, maybe at some point they were semites but after mixing with European populations for so long they just are not semites anymore. They are now white for the most part(I understand there are jews of all races but a majority of jews are white).
Learn2history - The word antisemite was coined specifically about jews. Easily confused white racists seem to have no trouble taking us for pale arabs, even ashkenazi and sephardic jews.

[lines]

I never addressed the origin of the term anti-semitic, I made commentary on the use of the word semitic in the term anti-semitic. The use of the term semitic to be used exclusively for jews is ridiculous.

I have seen plenty of arabs, anyone with a TV sees plenty of them. After all the USA has been in arab lands for awhile now. No jewish person I met looks like an arab. The only way anyone knows they are not a white non-jew is when they say they are jewish. They must be white then. At most some jews look Greek. Greeks are white though. Many jews look scandinavian though. Jews are white, sorry if that offends anyone.

And when I say jews are white I mean people who are ethnically jewish are white. Obviously black of chinese converts to judaism are not white.

[Tim Finnegan]

I never addressed the origin of the term anti-semitic, I made commentary on the use of the word semitic in the term anti-semitic. The use of the term semitic to be used exclusively for jews is ridiculous.

I have seen plenty of arabs, anyone with a TV sees plenty of them. After all the USA has been in arab lands for awhile now. No jewish person I met looks like an arab. The only way anyone knows they are not a white non-jew is when they say they are jewish. They must be white then. At most some jews look Greek. Greeks are white though. Many jews look scandinavian though. Jews are white, sorry if that offends anyone.

Just for the record... That's a misleading claim. Most American Jews are Ashkenazi, meaning that their ancestry within the last thousand years or so is primarily rooted in Central and Eastern Europe. They do not represent the totality of the international Jewish population, and are a minority within Israel itself; 3-4 million, living alongside 1-1.5 million Sephardic Jews, who come from the Iberian peninsular and have a "Mediterranean" appearance and complexion, around 4 million Mizrahi Jews, who come from across the Middle East and resemble other Semitic populations, and a number of minor communities from the Middle East, Europe, South Asia, and Africa. There's actually a big problem in Israel with inter-Jewish racism, the Mizrahi Jews and South Asian Jews being viewed by many Ashkenazi as uncivilised and little better than Arabs, and the African Jews even worse.

...

"Anti-Semitism" is an unfortunate holdover of 19th race science, in which various ethnic groups were appended often spurious labels to justify categorisations that typically owed more to politically convenience and cultural prejudice than even a serious linguistic genealogy. (For example, a century or so ago I would have been variously regarded as "Nordic", "Alpine" or "Mediterranean"- and in a few memorable cases, "Iberian Negroid"- depending on exactly how the race-quack in question felt about the Irish, and how they went about rationalising it.) The labelling of Jews as "Semitic" came from such classifications, and stuck because it served as a usual descriptor of ethnically or racially-motivated anti-Jewish sentiment, as opposed to the more religiously motivated "anti-Judaism". The etymology is unideal, but the phenomenon to which it refers it deserving of a unique label, given that it is a recurring phenomenon across Western, and carries various key characteristics regardless of the particular ethnicity of the Jews or non-Jews involved.
Pay a-bloody-ttention.

[lines]

Sephardic jews are white too.

[agnixie]

I never addressed the origin of the term anti-semitic, I made commentary on the use of the word semitic in the term anti-semitic. The use of the term semitic to be used exclusively for jews is ridiculous.

I have seen plenty of arabs, anyone with a TV sees plenty of them. After all the USA has been in arab lands for awhile now. No jewish person I met looks like an arab. The only way anyone knows they are not a white non-jew is when they say they are jewish. They must be white then. At most some jews look Greek. Greeks are white though. Many jews look scandinavian though. Jews are white, sorry if that offends anyone.

And when I say jews are white I mean people who are ethnically jewish are white. Obviously black of chinese converts to judaism are not white.

1. We didn't pick the word.
2. It was a rhetorical point to say that in-group variation is often greater than out group variation, excepting inbreeding. Which admittedly is common enough with jewish diaspora groups in Europe and the Middle East.
3. And then you get people who get seen as obviously jewish - my family is in this case, not religious for about a century but the fash certainly don't give a fuck when they see my brother or I. It's called being mixed. Some people of asian descent also look whiter, some people of ethiopian or west african descent also look whiter.


Sephardic jews are white too.

And yet they're not perceived as such in many cases, and tensions between jewish sub-groups do tend to go multiple ways, although the country being majority ashkenazi means the other groups lack power. Are you one of these idiots who think US census racial categories are The Truth or something?

[lines]

And yet they're not perceived as such in many cases, and tensions between jewish sub-groups do tend to go multiple ways, although the country being majority ashkenazi means the other groups lack power. Are you one of these idiots who think US census racial categories are The Truth or something?

Simmer down there fella, no need to resort to personal insults just because someone is saying something you disagree with.

[agnixie]

Simmer down there fella, no need to resort to personal insults just because someone is saying something you disagree with.

Despite your misinterpretation, I'm not angry, I'm barely mildly annoyed at what I'm half suspecting might be trolling. Also, I'm argumentative, so yeah.

[lines]

Well I refuse to discuss an issue with someone who uses the word idiot to refer to me so if you want to continue this discussion with me you will have to apologize for that and take it back or else my time discussing this with you is done.

[agnixie]

Well I refuse to discuss an issue with someone who uses the word idiot to refer to me so if you want to continue this discussion with me you will have to apologize for that and take it back or else my time discussing this with you is done.

Fine. I'll take it back.

The whole "jews are not semitic so I can't be really anti-semitic" thing is absolute, utter bullshit, though. It's certainly not very smart.

[Sir Comradical]

^^Really? Kids at ur school beleive in a the Judeo-Communist conspiracy? :rolleyes:

Yeah I know, that's like so totally 1910.

Today with Glenn Beck it's all about the Islamo-Communist conspiracy.

[agnixie]

Yeah I know, that's like so totally 1910.

Today with Glenn Beck it's all about the Islamo-Communist conspiracy.

Meh, Glenn Beck's obsession with Der Ewige Soros is getting pretty obvious over time.

[lines]

http://connect.in.com/sephardic-jews/photos-sephardi-jews-mosaic-e59dfe57be20a19a.html
http://i452.photobucket.com/albums/qq247/oditous/album3/garden-2.jpg
http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/houghtonmodern/files/2009/12/Jabes.jpg
http://connect.in.com/sephardic-jews/photos-1-1-1-30ccd97b1d925c2a5a5f970a17760267.html

Pictures of sephardic jews above, they look white to me.

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/07_03/missarab280707_468x591.jpg

Picture of winner of Miss Arab World 2007 above, does not resemble sephardic jews. Arabs are semites.

[agnixie]

http://connect.in.com/sephardic-jews/photos-sephardi-jews-mosaic-e59dfe57be20a19a.html
http://i452.photobucket.com/albums/qq247/oditous/album3/garden-2.jpg
http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/houghtonmodern/files/2009/12/Jabes.jpg
http://connect.in.com/sephardic-jews/photos-1-1-1-30ccd97b1d925c2a5a5f970a17760267.html

Pictures of sephardic jews above, they look white to me.

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/07_03/missarab280707_468x591.jpg

Picture of winner of Miss Arab World 2007, does not resemble sephardic jews. Arabs are semites.

This is the kind of nonsense I knew would make me regret the apology.
Let's give a slow clap for more anecdata.

Also, lrn2history. Your arguments give me headaches. Not good ones, it's the kind of headaches you get when dealing with people who have a tiny bit of knowledge about something. Congrats, you know the various meanings of the word semite. That doesn't change that you are a) wrong, b) insistant on being so and c) full of it if you're basing your entire claim that you can't be anti-semitic against jews on the basis of... what exactly?
Also, I reiterate, you likely know few arabs if you think these pictures of sephardic jews you showed are so radically different from arabs in say, Lebanon or Palestine.

EDIT - In conclusion, you're a troll.

[Jimmie Higgins]

And what does Israel do specifically, can you name some specific things Israel does that enforces a USA interest in the middle east. Please no vague nothings just real events please.

Well, let's hear what Ronald Regan's Secretary of State had to say: "Israel is the largest American aircraft carrier in the world that cannot be sunk, does not carry even one American soldier, and is located in a critical region for American national security."

Or this:

Democratic Sen. Henry (“Scoop”) Jackson, nicknamed the “Senator from Boeing” for his hawkish views, pronounced in May 1973 that “the strength and Western orientation of Israel on the Mediterranean and Iran on the Persian Gulf safeguards U.S. access to oil.” They have “served to inhibit and contain those irresponsible and radical elements in certain Arab states, who, were they free to do so, would pose a grave threat indeed to our principle sources of petroleum in the Persian Gulf.”18

Or, from the Israeli Newspaper of Record:

Ha’aretz 1951[/SIZE]]Israel is to become the watchdog. There is no fear that Israel will undertake any aggressive policy towards the Arab states when this would explicitly contradict the wishes of the U.S. and Britain. But if for any reasons the Western powers should sometimes prefer to close their eyes, Israel could be relied upon to punish one or several neighboring states whose discourtesy to the West went beyond the bounds of the permissible.20

The year that Israel became the main recipient of US military aid was 1967 - when Israel waged the "6-day war" and proved the thesis of the Ha'aretz quote above.

Israel has nukes (not officially acknowledged, but well known) so just as a warehouse for missiles that are strategically placed, Israel is valuable to the US.

Israeli intelligence collects information for the US. During the cold war, for one example, a Soviet-made plane from Iraq was taken by Israel and handed over to the US. Even more than that, US and Israeli intelligence cooperate on covert ops and information gathering that is directly in the interests of the US or against countries the US doesn't like. Israeli intelligence stole military secrets from the French and handed them over to the US.

US military contractors use Israel as a testing ground for the development of new technology and the Israel allows the US to conduct training missions - this is fairly useful now for the US considering that those training exercises were probably dry-runs for Iraq and other potential conflicts.

During the cold war, the US funneled weapons and trained forces that the US population would not approve of through Israel - Pinochet and South Africa for example. And after the Cold War, Israel still trains thugs on behalf of US interests such as right-wing paramilitary leaders in Colombia.


But Israel’s role as America’s bully-for-hire is not just a thing of the Cold War past—though the statute of limitations on prosecuting these crimes against humanity should never run out. “I learned an infinite amount of things in Israel, and to that country I owe part of my essence, my human and military achievements,” wrote the former (and now deceased) head of the largest right-wing paramilitary group in Colombia, Carlos Castaño. As recently as 2002, the Guatemala-based Israeli company GIRSA supplied Colombian death squads with 3,000 Kalashnikov rifles and 2.5 million rounds of ammunition.25
The American Empire will always have a need for these types of covert black ops services from a reliable ally. Israel continues to play this role efficiently and discreetly.


OK Israel is a stick to keep Iran in line? What?Have you read a newspaper anytime in the last decade?


And then your trying to say its there specifically to destabilize the region so that the West can do business with leaders? Yes.


The west is always going to be doing business in the region because they need the west because its western companies that have the top notch oil extraction capabilities. And these countries could push for better deals for their home rulers or even nationalize their oil if there was no military threat hanging over them - in fact Egypt and other countries did exactly that in the 1950s and 60s... until Israel defeated them.


This line of reasoning your pushing is so convoluted and just doesn't hold up to any sort of scrutiny.As opposed to the most powerful country and military power in the world being told what to do by a much smaller country for no apparent reason?


Look I got no problem with Israel personally. It's just a country that does nothing good for the USA and in fact it's been a drain on the USA resources for many years.I do have a problem with the Israeli government and its policies - as I do with the US. You could say that the war in Iraq and Afganistan is a "drain" on the US resources too... so is US policy being controlled by Karzi... or is it that Afghanistan has strategic value for the US?


Instead of sending billions to Israel we should be sending billions to poor Americans, many people in America are facing financial difficulty and Israel is getting aid when it should be Americans getting the aid!!!Yes, money for schools and jobs, not for war in Iraq. But the US ruling class doesn't give a shit about the population here or in Israel and definitely not in Iraq or Palestine. What the US ruling class does care about is being able to control the resources (or the access to resources by US competitors) of the middle east (and other regions), including trade routes. So Israel being right on the major canal is a plus, being within striking distance of oil rich countries is an even bigger advantage.

[Tim Finnegan]

Sephardic jews are white too.
I think the desperate irrelevance of this post expresses the untenability of your rambling silliness better than I ever could.


http://connect.in.com/sephardic-jews/photos-sephardi-jews-mosaic-e59dfe57be20a19a.html
http://i452.photobucket.com/albums/qq247/oditous/album3/garden-2.jpg
http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/houghtonmodern/files/2009/12/Jabes.jpg
http://connect.in.com/sephardic-jews/photos-1-1-1-30ccd97b1d925c2a5a5f970a17760267.html

Pictures of sephardic jews above, they look white to me.
I don't know if all those people would be universally considered white, actually. It really depends on who you're talking to as how they define these things, and it's rarely a matter of simple skin tone.


http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/07_03/missarab280707_468x591.jpg

Picture of winner of Miss Arab World 2007 above, does not resemble sephardic jews. Arabs are semites.Again, Mizrahi Jews. Pay. A-bloody. Ttention.

[eyedrop]

As a result of the immigrant wave after the Balcan wars Balcans are certainly considered non-white here. The racist name is a slang word for Pakistanis.

"White" varies vastly from place to place.

Edit: I removed the quoted part of Tims post as I saw he removed it himself.

[Tim Finnegan]

As a result of the immigrant wave after the Balcan wars Balcans are certainly considered non-white here. The racist name is a slang word for Pakistanis.

"White" varies vastly from place to place.
Exactly. I know some older people who don't consider Greeks or Southern Italians to be "white", and I think it's probably the case that most people here don't consider Turks, Armenians or Iranians to be "white", despite the fact that most of them, if I understand correctly, self-describe as such. "Whiteness" is an incredibly plastic concept.


Edit: I removed the quoted part of Tims post as I saw he removed it himself.Yeah, sorry about that, I got Shepardic and Mizrahi Jews mixed up there for a minute.

[Ocean Seal]

The whole Jewish-communist conspiracy thing makes me laugh when you consider that Israel is perhaps one of the most anti communist countries.
Actually, I don't know about you guys but I thought that we were part of the Caliphate-Communist conspiracy led by our dear leader Bill Ayers to destroy Israel. How is it that reactionaries think that were part of both?

[agnixie]

Actually, I don't know about you guys but I thought that we were part of the Caliphate-Communist conspiracy led by our dear leader Bill Ayers to destroy Israel. How is it that reactionaries think that were part of both?
Reactionaries love Israel for the eschatological prophecies and the fact that it leads to other people killing each other, not for the "New York Liberals" ;) - the american religious right thinks they are, in fact, the real jews somehow.

It then all becomes clear :p

[Dean]

Trying to downplay anti-semitism or link it to zionism is missing the point. The "zionist" issue only really has much meaning for the rate of respect for anrti-smitism vs. other kinds of racism. In other words, a pro-Israeli paradigm will probably engender more sympathy for Jews since they are cross-identified. The same is true for any other struggle - notably, the utter disregard for African, Arab, Pashtun and Persian interests are directly related to the relative antagonism towards regimes that identify with those ethnicities. Perhaps most troubling about this tendency is the sheer number of African descendants in the US, which shares this paradigm, though keeps blacks in a generalized state of repression.

The mainstream narrative on antisemitism is to marginalize Palestinian interests. With Blacks, so it is told, we are to be deeply concerned with derogatory language, and ignore their economic and political marginalization. There is little consistency here, though: direct attacks on Jews, even among pro-Palestinian groups, is deemphasized in the stead of emphasis on Palestinian nationalist and human-rights programs, especially when they are non-violent and/or non-racist.

The mainstream political narrative masquerades itself as anti-racist, pro-Jewish. It's clear that it is not, even if we assume that the method is to conflate Judaism with Israel. If anyone want's to support Israeli interests, the program for peace should be emphasized. But it is consistently undermined by those who strongly claim to support Israeli/Jewish interests.

As leftists, or anti-racists in general, we should simply reject this paradigm. An attack on Jewish people for their ethnicity is wrong in its own right. No questions of "their stance on Israel" mean anything. Should psycho be asking himself if his family were zionists when he was attacked as a kid? Fuck no.

By attempting to align antisemitism with anti-zionism, you give the nationalist-political struggle precisely what it wants: an ethnic identity which it doesn't deserve, nor does it represent. The data showing the inconsistency of the Jewish-Israeli connection of interests are stunning and one could spend all day citing it. But I think its sufficient to say that no person should feel like their ethnic or religious identity is controlled by a state actor, especially when we are discussing attacks on them for having that identity.

[Dean]

Trying to downplay anti-semitism or link it to zionism is missing the point. The "zionist" issue only really has much meaning for the rate of respect for anrti-smitism vs. other kinds of racism. In other words, a pro-Israeli paradigm will probably engender more sympathy for Jews since they are cross-identified. The same is true for any other struggle - notably, the utter disregard for African, Arab, Pashtun and Persian interests are directly related to the relative antagonism towards regimes that identify with those ethnicities. Perhaps most troubling about this tendency is the sheer number of African descendants in the US, which shares this paradigm, though keeps blacks in a generalized state of repression.

The mainstream narrative on antisemitism is to marginalize Palestinian interests. With Blacks, so it is told, we are to be deeply concerned with derogatory language, and ignore their economic and political marginalization. There is little consistency here, though: direct attacks on Jews, even among pro-Palestinian groups, is deemphasized in the stead of emphasis on Palestinian nationalist and human-rights programs, especially when they are non-violent and/or non-racist.

The mainstream political narrative masquerades itself as anti-racist, pro-Jewish. It's clear that it is not, even if we assume that the method is to conflate Judaism with Israel. If anyone want's to support Israeli interests, the program for peace should be emphasized. But it is consistently undermined by those who strongly claim to support Israeli/Jewish interests.

As leftists, or anti-racists in general, we should simply reject this paradigm. An attack on Jewish people for their ethnicity is wrong in its own right. No questions of "their stance on Israel" mean anything. Should psycho be asking himself if his family were zionists when he was attacked as a kid? Fuck no.

By attempting to align antisemitism with anti-zionism, you give the nationalist-political struggle precisely what it wants: an ethnic identity which it doesn't deserve, nor does it represent. The data showing the inconsistency of the Jewish-Israeli connection of interests are stunning and one could spend all day citing it. But I think its sufficient to say that no person should feel like their ethnic or religious identity is controlled by a state actor, especially when we are discussing attacks on them for having that identity.