The economy

[sooperkula]

Hey :)

I've been swinging from the extreme left to the centre left and back so many times, I can't count any more. The main reason why is the economy; how would communism deal with such things as a recession? You can't really get the economy to grow by making people buying 'what they need'. I know a lot of people here say there shouldn't be any money, but I can't understand how that would work.

And one more thing, why would having a 'free' market (which would be very regulated) and high taxes on the rich be a bad idea? I'm not really searching for a 'evil capitalist' answer here, because it doesn't really answer the question the way I want it to.

If anyone can explain these to me, especially the question about money, I'd be really grateful :)

Thanks!

[Broletariat]

First we should examine the historical pre-conditions for the existence of money.

Money only occurs in a society in which production is carried out in isolation and for individual profit. Because products are produced in isolation, and because the branches of production are unable to sustain themselves, there must be a way to circulate products (known as commodities), enter money.

The alternative we propose is that production be carried out socially for social use. Here there is no need to circulate anything since nothing is in isolation, ala no money. Distribution could work along several different lines, though the most popular I've seen are the idea of labour credits, different from money since they do not circulate, or if there's a large excess it could simply be distributed as people desired the goods.

The reason why crisis occurs under Capitalism is typically debated I'm told. The two most plausible suggestions I've seen for crisis under Capitalism are both eliminated under Communism, so there is no crisis in Communism.

Crisis under Capitalism either happens due to the falling rate of profit, or large misinvestments. The falling rate of profit occurs because value is based on labour. As more and more automation occurs, less and less labour is involved in production, thus reducing the amount of value produced and the rate of profit. Since investment is based on projected profit, as profit falls so does investment, enter crisis. Large misinvestment is a bit simpler, one company invests in a commodity that never sells, surplus exists, that company stops investment, it's suppliers get screwed, domino effect.

The way Capitalism recovers from crisis is from three causes that always happen under crisis, and one that is made more probable.

1. Interest rates drop (making it more profitable to invest)
2. Unemployment goes up (which means labour becomes cheaper)
3. Companies go out of business and sell assets very cheaply (cheaper investment)
4. War, destruction of constant capital, start of wartime economy.

All four deal with devaluation in some way.

The idea that we can properly regulate Capitalism is impractical because the ruling class under Capitalism is the bourgeoisie, and it is not in their interests to put high taxes upon themselves.

[jake williams]

The main reason why is the economy; how would communism deal with such things as a recession? You can't really get the economy to grow by making people buying 'what they need'.
You can't in a capitalist economy, but consumption as a driver of growth only exists in capitalism (and even there, it doesn't exist stably). Cycical recessions are a systemic problem of capitalism. A communist society doesn't have to "deal with" things like that in the first place.

That's all fairly hypothetical though. If you're asking how communists should deal, today, with the problems of capitalist societies, that's a bit more difficult. But we're not communists because we have great ideas about how to make capitalism work.


I know a lot of people here say there shouldn't be any money, but I can't understand how that would work.
If you just eliminated money in a capitalist society, it would destroy the economy. Money provides the minimal organization that exists in capitalist societies, and capitalism doesn't. Communist societies don't depend on money to provide that organization - workers/consumers directly decide what is produced.


And one more thing, why would having a 'free' market (which would be very regulated) and high taxes on the rich be a bad idea? I'm not really searching for a 'evil capitalist' answer here, because it doesn't really answer the question the way I want it to.
It's sort of a difficult question to answer, because the thing is, very regulated capitalist societies with high taxes on the wealthy can't really exist in the long term - so the question of whether or not they're a preferable mode of economic organization doesn't make sense.

In capitalist societies, social and political power rests with a specific group of people - those who get wealthy because they own the means of production, and get wealthy from it. Since these people depend on profit to live, and taxing or regulating them interferes with their profit, they'll find a way around it - which we see, because corporate and wealth taxes are constantly going down in the advanced capitalist countries. (Relatively) high taxes and regulations on the wealthy don't work unless they eliminate the class power of the wealthy, or the wealthy will just change the laws.