maoism vs left communism wah wah wah

[black magick hustla]

It's so fun when you post your whiny, emotionally driven knee-jerk reactions. If you wan't to see how "convincing" Maoism is, take a look at the PPWs in, for example, India and the Philippines. What has "hipster", "left" or "nihilist" communism ever done? ;)

well what we do is slam malt liquor and smoke hella weed.

i like it when the resident internet maoists (TM) talk about how tough shit are whatever group they are supporting from the internet. then when someone points out some gross and disgusting shit y'all pretend to be "monk warriors" not prone to emotionalism because obviously you are down with stupid violent leftist slogans like "revolution is not a dinner party", Obviously, not even that fucking stupid gonzalo bonehead was able to lie about the Lucamarcan massacre, where PCP militants hacked children into pieces.

to be honest, maoists exaggerate how succesful they are. other bourgeois factions are def. more succesful than y'all and I don't see what is communist about the underdog of the left wing of capital. we are for the self activity of the working class. the class struggle exists in India and everywhere else regardless if there are red schoolteachers and assorted self righteous students-turned-into-murderers.

[black magick hustla]

a standard anti-communist rant from someone who has been fortunate enough to complete college.

i.e. the mayority of the naxalite cadre

[red cat]

i.e. the mayority of the naxalite cadre

I challenge this claim of yours. Please prove it.

[black magick hustla]

I challenge this claim of yours. Please prove it.

Oh please. The leadership and main cadre of leftist guerrillas are always college graduates or college dropouts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charu_Majumdar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puchalapalli_Sundaraiah
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobad_Ghandy


this are some of the first articles i found when wikipediaing "naxalite leader". i dont think obviously most of the fighters are "college dropouts" but ill eat my socks if the important and most prized and ideological cadre are not.

[black magick hustla]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koora_Rajanna

[Reznov]

Was actually talking about this group with a friend awhile back, whats the current status of them?

[mosfeld]

well what we do is slam malt liquor and smoke hella weed. I.e., you guys are incompetent idiots who don't do shit. While you're on the sideline doing drugs and criticizing Maoists, some of the most oppressed and wretched people on this planet flock under the banner of Maoism for their liberation. It's a fairly nice comparison.


Obviously, not even that fucking stupid gonzalo bonehead was able to lie about the Lucamarcan massacre, where PCP militants hacked children into pieces. Maoists have never concealed that this event happened. Left communism has thus far never produced a revolutionary war and as such in the "tendency war" you have the "fortune" of pointing out excesses and mistakes which have occurred during PPWs without any consequences. We can't point out any excesses and mistakes that left communists have mistakes, because you have done absolutely nothing.

Claiming that "PCP militants hacked children into pieces" is propaganda, plain and simple. Not only that but it's also your typical racist stereotype of "crazy Indians" who do not give a shit about human life and just go on killing sprees. Do you also believe that the Naxals are cannibals? You're a stupid sucker for imperialist propaganda, how low can you get??

http://www.sinsofcommission.com/California-Coast/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/red_rape_cvr.jpg

Senderologist books which maintain that shit you're spewing are basically modern versions of the image posted above, except with an extra racist touch to it where they're crazy, mass-murdering Indians instead of freedom hating commies.

Anyways, regardless of this excess you pointed out, the PCP still managed to create, in their liberated zones, People's Committees which brought popular justice to landlords, rapists and enemies of the people, got rid of drugs and encouraged coca farmers to instead farm fruits, redistributed land, etc. The PCP has also, as noted even by senderologists, famous for their empowerment of women.

The fact of the matter is that armed struggle cannot maintain itself without popular support. How do you explain that the PCP was active or controlled 1/3rd of Peru? Any group which goes around "hacking little children to pieces" and "cannibalizing innocent people", etc, could never maintain their struggle for decades.


i.e. the mayority of the naxalite cadre
The majority of Naxal cadres are tribals. Please just shut up if you don't know anything about what you're talking about.

[red cat]

Oh please. The leadership and main cadre of leftist guerrillas are always college graduates or college dropouts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charu_Majumdar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puchalapalli_Sundaraiah
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobad_Ghandy


this are some of the first articles i found when wikipediaing "naxalite leader". i dont think obviously most of the fighters are "college dropouts" but ill eat my socks if the important and most prized and ideological cadre are not.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koora_Rajanna

Okay, so now you have changed your statement from majority of cadre to majority of "ideological cadre" and generalized it to college dropouts too ? First show the guts to abandon your own academic career to fight a revolutionary war, then return to point a finger at them.

You have tried to support your claims by googling hastily. Sundariah was never even a naxalite.

To you, the most "prized" ideological leaders are obviously the ones that write in official magazines or pass statements. Some might be experienced CC members too. However, in a real communist movement, there are many extremely valuable leaders who work predominantly in a totally clandestine or military environment, and hence are less well known outside the movement or country. I will give two examples : Vikas and Jagory Baskey. Google their names. Those two could never afford to enter college or probably finish school.

@ Mosfeld:

Calm down, what else do you expect from members of an organization which is content with holding a day-long circus show once a year in a single factory in a country of a billion ? Also remember the time they falsely claimed that a very important ex-Maoist Indian leader was in their ranks but could not name him ?

[Reznov]

Calm down, what else do you expect from members of an organization which is content with holding a day-long circus show once a year in a single factory in a country of a billion ? Also remember the time they falsely claimed that a very important ex-Maoist Indian leader was in their ranks but could not name him ?

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

That made my day.

But again, whats up with the Shining Path currently? I heard some "Commander" tried to make a deal or something stating the release of leaders or something.

Someone up to date with them?

[black magick hustla]

To you, the most "prized" ideological leaders are obviously the ones that write in official magazines or pass statements. Some might be experienced CC members too. However, in a real communist movement, there are many extremely valuable leaders who work predominantly in a totally clandestine or military environment, and hence are less well known outside the movement or country. I will give two examples : Vikas and Jagory Baskey. Google their names. Those two could never afford to enter college or probably finish school.



wah wah wah wah, ok so maybe i exaggerated rhetorically. dont care you guys are still fucking whack.

but


Calm down, what else do you expect from members of an organization which is content with holding a day-long circus show once a year in a single factory in a country of a billion ? Also remember the time they falsely claimed that a very important ex-Maoist Indian leader was in their ranks but could not name him ?[/

oh geez i knew one of you cumstains was going to come up with this bullshit. i was actually thinking about it. nobody uses their real names in the icc you dickheads. plenty of militants break with naxalism, and some of them join the the "ultraleft" here is a group that is similar to us and had similar origins.

http://libcom.org/library/revolutionary-termites-in-faridabad-a-proletarian-current-in-india-confronts-third-worldist-statism

they all broke with naxalism too. you can go fuck yourself

[red cat]

wah wah wah wah, ok so maybe i exaggerated rhetorically. dont care you guys are still fucking whack.

but



oh geez i knew one of you cumstains was going to come up with this bullshit. i was actually thinking about it. nobody uses their real names in the icc you dickheads. plenty of militants break with naxalism, and some of them join the the "ultraleft" here is a group that is similar to us and had similar origins.

http://libcom.org/library/revolutionary-termites-in-faridabad-a-proletarian-current-in-india-confronts-third-worldist-statism

they all broke with naxalism too. you can go fuck yourself

I see that you have switched to your whining mode after your statements have been proved to be lies.

Some cadre break with naxalism because then they don't have to risk their lives fighting and there is an immediate financial reward if they do so and join legal revisionist self-proclaimed "ultraleft" groups. But so far no big Maoist leader has joined the ICC. Don't try to escape by saying that you don't use your real names. The ICC does not engage in any revolutionary activity in India anyway; you are no revolutionaries that would be in need of tech-names.

[black magick hustla]

I see that you have switched to your whining mode after your statements have been proved to be lies.
who cares. the history of guerrillas has always been leftist urban dropouts going to the countryside. this was the case with the naxalites as you can read in that article i linked too. whether they convince peasants or whatever does not change the fact that maoist methodology always amounted to that. i never believed that most naxalites were middle class intellectuals. you can prove i was lying before, whatever dont care




Some cadre break with naxalism because then they don't have to risk their lives fighting and there is an immediate financial reward if they do so and join legal revisionist self-proclaimed "ultraleft" groups. But so far no big Maoist leader has joined the ICC. Don't try to escape by saying that you don't use your real names. The ICC does not engage in any revolutionary activity in India anyway; you are no revolutionaries that would be in need of tech-names.

did you ever read the article???? Kamunist Kranti yielding financial reward? more importantly can you tell me the financial reward in probably at most a few dozen folks telling the managers and unions to go to hell and peddling translated versions of rosa luxembourgs work? fuck if that was the case i am on my way to make serious bank

the icc doesnt use real names. the icc wont namedrop people because some weirdo in the internet requests it. i could post your ip address etc and your location if i wanted to. of course i wont, and you probably wont like that. same idea. i already posted proof that people do break with naxalism and join other groups that have similar ideas to ours dont see how hard it is, given that many "communists" are naxalites and that obviously some of them are going to break and join other organizations. in the same way in the history of communism people broke off big stalinist parties and joined trotskyism, etc. there where some breaks in the phillipino maoist ranks that join the icc. i dont see how hard is that to imagine. maoism is big in the phillipines and that is the gateway of many phillipinos to anticapitalist thought. devrim's family background is from irish republicanism, and he is a left communist. about us not being revolutionary? whatever, we cant please everybody i guess. the maoists think that killing some cops and landlords and blowing up shit and causing coup d'etats equates proletarian revolution. of course you wont think we arent revolutionary. who cares, its two entirely different worldviews and approaches. one is about voluntaristic small bands of guerillas and martyrs and the other centers itself in the tension between spontaneous revolt and politicization. whatever man

[red cat]

who cares. the history of guerrillas has always been leftist urban dropouts going to the countryside. this was the case with the naxalites as you can read in that article i linked too. whether they convince peasants or whatever does not change the fact that maoist methodology always amounted to that. i never believed that most naxalites were middle class intellectuals. you can prove i was lying before, whatever dont care

Blah blah blah don't care blah. If you don't care then why do you make baseless statements?


did you ever read the article???? Kamunist Kranti yielding financial reward? more importantly can you tell me the financial reward in probably at most a few dozen folks telling the managers and unions to go to hell and peddling translated versions of rosa luxembourgs work? fuck if that was the case i am on my way to make serious bank
The government provides the financial reward.


the icc doesnt use real names. the icc wont namedrop people because some weirdo in the internet requests it. That might be because your "comrades" are probably factory owners or managers who pose as communists. There is no other reason for them not using their real names; not here in India at least.


i could post your ip address etc and your location if i wanted to. of course i wont, and you probably wont like that. same idea. No, it's not the same. Firstly, that would get you banned from this site. Secondly I am speaking in favour of an organization that actively leads proletarian class struggle in my country and is militarily targeted by the government, while all your organization does is protect the ruling classes and make baseless claims.



i already posted proof that people do break with naxalism and join other groups that have similar ideas to ours dont see how hard it is, given that many "communists" are naxalites and that obviously some of them are going to break and join other organizations. in the same way in the history of communism people broke off big stalinist parties and joined trotskyism, etc. there where some breaks in the phillipino maoist ranks that join the icc. i dont see how hard is that to imagine. maoism is big in the phillipines and that is the gateway of many phillipinos to anticapitalist thought. devrim's family background is from irish republicanism, and he is a left communist. That was not the topic. You had claimed that a big Maoist leader had joined your ranks. This is utterly false.


about us not being revolutionary? whatever, we cant please everybody i guess. the maoists think that killing some cops and landlords and blowing up shit and causing coup d'etats equates proletarian revolution. of course you wont think we arent revolutionary. who cares, its two entirely different worldviews and approaches. one is about voluntaristic small bands of guerillas and martyrs and the other centers itself in the tension between spontaneous revolt and politicization. whatever manMaoist activity does not exactly equate "killing some cops and blowing up shit". Maoists organize the workers and peasants to overthrow the ruling classes wherever they can, while the ICC does practically nothing and justifies its inaction by parroting phrases like "the working class liberates itself", "spontaneous revolt" etc. How will the working class liberate itself ? How will a spontaneous revolt take place ? Will each and every worker of the world magically revolt and defeat the bourgeoisie one fine morning ? The ICC cannot answer this. The only thing it can do is use such phrases and the names of great communists like Luxemburg to protect the bourgeoisie and preserve the current order.

[Savage]

That might be because your "comrades" are probably factory owners or managers who pose as communists. There is no other reason for them not using their real names; not here in India at least.
If I desterted a group like the Naxalites, I wouldn't want them having any information about me. as for 'factory owners posing as communists', the ICC certainly wouldn't want anyone like this (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Engels)clown hanging around them.



Secondly I am speaking in favour of an organization that actively leads proletarian class struggle in my country and is militarily targeted by the government, while all your organization does is protect the ruling classes and make baseless claims.
It's always funny when the Maoists acuse internationalist organisations of having reactionary tendancies, of course, the Maoists are always too busy defending capital to actually read any sort of communist theory, those that do usually end up becoming communists.


That was not the topic. You had claimed that a big Maoist leader had joined your ranks. This is utterly false.
I'm not surprised at all that 'big' Maoists leaders don't join communist ranks, why would they give up the the fruits of being an ideologue with the chance of commanding a bourgeois state? Isn't that the dream of anyone belonging to this particular personality cult?


Maoist activity does not exactly equate "killing some cops and blowing up shit".
Oh I agree, usually it's much worse (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucanamarca_massacre).


Maoists organize the workers and peasants to overthrow the ruling classes wherever they can, while the ICC does practically nothing and justifies its inaction by parroting phrases like "the working class liberates itself", "spontaneous revolt" etc. How will the working class liberate itself ? How will a spontaneous revolt take place ? Will each and every worker of the world magically revolt and defeat the bourgeoisie one fine morning ? The ICC cannot answer this. The only thing it can do is use such phrases and the names of great communists like Luxemburg to protect the bourgeoisie and preserve the current order.
The ICC, like most Left Communist groups, advocates an International Communist Party, ''not to ‘organise the working class’ nor to ‘take power’ in its name, but to participate actively in the movement towards the unification of struggles, towards workers taking control of them for themselves, and at the same time to draw out the revolutionary political goals of the proletariat’s combat.''. As far as political activity goess left com groups aim to set up factory groups with communist militants aswell as breaking down national barriers to discussion, perhaps more progress could have been made, but then again, the majority of factors at play in the establishment of a revolution are beyond the organisation of any party or group.

[red cat]

If I desterted a group like the Naxalites, I wouldn't want them having any information about me.

Doesn't matter what you would want. The reality is that every major information about all "big" leaders who left the movement is accessible, and none of them is a member of the ICC.


as for 'factory owners posing as communists', the ICC certainly wouldn't want anyone like this (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Engels)clown hanging around them. The link doesn't work for me, but I believe that that was Engels ? What is your point ?


It's always funny when the Maoists acuse internationalist organisations of having reactionary tendancies, of course, the Maoists are always too busy defending capital to actually read any sort of communist theory, those that do usually end up becoming communists.Which capital are the Indian Maoists defending ? The ICC is an international joke. Its members read communist theory and deform it to defend imperialism through advocating inaction.



I'm not surprised at all that 'big' Maoists leaders don't join communist ranks, why would they give up the the fruits of being an ideologue with the chance of commanding a bourgeois state? Isn't that the dream of anyone belonging to this particular personality cult?Maoists are the only true communists around in countries like India. But I think that by "communist" you refer to the ICC agents of imperialism. Well, it was a claim of one of your comrades that there is a former big Indian Maoist leader in the ranks of the ICC.

Maoist leaders are not ideologues aiming at commanding a bourgeois state, they are militants who organize the masses risking their lives to bring about socialism. Compare this with ICC revisionists that defend imperialism in practice by attacking anything opposed to it.



Oh I agree, usually it's much worse (http://http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucanamarca_massacre).I know, it really hurts you when a militia defending imperialism is attacked by communists.



The ICC, like most Left Communist groups, advocates an International Communist Party, ''not to ‘organise the working class’ nor to ‘take power’ in its name, but to participate actively in the movement towards the unification of struggles, towards workers taking control of them for themselves, and at the same time to draw out the revolutionary political goals of the proletariat’s combat.''. As far as political activity goess left com groups aim to set up factory groups with communist militants aswell as breaking down national barriers to discussion, perhaps more progress could have been made, but then again, the majority of factors at play in the establishment of a revolution are beyond the organisation of any party or group.So how is all this tall-talk working in practice for your Indian comrades ? What do they do when urban and rural workers are fired or slave for free or for a fraction of the minimum wages ? What about the caste system, displacement of tribals, confiscation of lands from poor peasants and part agricultural-labourers? What about government atrocities that are claiming the lives of thousands ? The ICC does not organize the working class, as you yourself admit. So what does it do other than just watching these tremendous atrocities taking place and spewing out lies about the struggles of the working class ? The Indian Maoist CP is waging a relentless war against every such form of state-oppression, just like any true revolutionary communist party should. The ICC on the other hand, instead of fighting the state and imperialism, is denouncing these struggles and hence has proved itself to be an agent of imperialism.

[Savage]

Doesn't matter what you would want. The reality is that every major information about all "big" leaders who left the movement is accessible, and none of them is a member of the ICC.
You didn't understand, I won't bother repeating.


The link doesn't work for me, but I believe that that was Engels ? What is your point ?The point is that Engels was a factory owner, a represtentative of capital, which refutes your awful understanding of communism as a life style.


Which capital are the Indian Maoists defending ? The ICC is an international joke. Its members read communist theory and deform it to defend imperialism through advocating inaction.Indian Maoists, like all Maoists, are bourgeois reactionaries. Your politics are on the left of capital, in theory and in practice you uphold bourgeois, commodity producing states which can be confused with nothing other than capitalism.



Maoists are the only true communists around in countries like India. But I think that by "communist" you refer to the ICC agents of imperialism. Well, it was a claim of one of your comrades that there is a former big Indian Maoist leader in the ranks of the ICC.It is obvious that you do not have a valid understanding what Imperialism is. Imperialism is not a state policy, it is a mechanism within capitalism which is now absolute, no country is free from it because no country is, or possibly can be free from capitalism on it's own, when capitalism no longer exists then neither shall any nation. Of course, there is debate between those who uphold Lenin's understanding of Imperialism (you are not one of those people) and those who consider it to be the continuance of primative accumulation, either way it is not a policy, and rather than being anti-imperialist, Maoism is simply nationalist.


Maoist leaders are not ideologues aiming at commanding a bourgeois state, they are militants who organize the masses risking their lives to bring about socialism. Compare this with ICC revisionists that defend imperialism in practice by attacking anything opposed to it.Communism is the only thing that is opposed to capitalism, communists are people who maintain a class line, this means holding an inherently and unwavering internationalist outlook. Maoists are not communists, their program is merely the juridicial abolition of private property, which does nothing to emancipate the working class from it's alienation to the conditions of production.



I know, it really hurts you when a militia defending imperialism is attacked by communists. A militia defending imperialism? You mean little kids? As young as 6 months old? You're disguisting.


So how is all this tall-talk working in practice for your Indian comrades ? What do they do when urban and rural workers are fired or slave for free or for a fraction of the minimum wages ? What about the caste system, displacement of tribals, confiscation of lands from poor peasants and part agricultural-labourers? What about government atrocities that are claiming the lives of thousands ? The ICC does not organize the working class, as you yourself admit. So what does it do other than just watching these tremendous atrocities taking place and spewing out lies about the struggles of the working class ? The Indian Maoist CP is waging a relentless war against every such form of state-oppression, just like any true revolutionary communist party should. The ICC on the other hand, instead of fighting the state and imperialism, is denouncing these struggles and hence has proved itself to be an agent of imperialism.The Naxalite struggle is not a proletarian revolution, it is a nationalist struggle which is not and cannot do anything to challenge capitalism, which of course can only be overcome internationally and on a world scale. No one can 'lead' or 'organise' the working class for themselves, this just reinforces the proletariats subjugation to capital, instead, groups like the ICC wish to serve as platforms of discussion and political orientation so that the proletariat can excercise class war and then excercise power as a whole. The ICC denounces all capitalist factions, this including bourgeois organisations such as the Maoists, only advocating the politics of the proletariat.

[red cat]

You didn't understand, I won't bother repeating.

I understood very well that you are running out of excuses.


The point is that Engels was a factory owner, a represtentative of capital, which refutes your awful understanding of communism as a life style.So are you advocating the enlistment of factory owners in the ranks of the ICC ?


Indian Maoists, like all Maoists, are bourgeois reactionaries. Your politics are on the left of capital, in theory and in practice you uphold bourgeois, commodity producing states which can be confused with nothing other than capitalism. Exactly this type of slandering is what agents of imperialism like the ICC exist for. Defend your stand with examples relevant to the Indian Maoist movement, or you will be identifying yourself more and more with the class you falsely claim to oppose.



It is obvious that you do not have a valid understanding what Imperialism is. Imperialism is not a state policy, it is a mechanism within capitalism which is now absolute, no country is free from it because no country is, or possibly can be free from capitalism on it's own, when capitalism no longer exists then neither shall any nation. Of course, there is debate between those who uphold Lenin's understanding of Imperialism (you are not one of those people) and those who consider it to be the continuance of primative accumulation, either way it is not a policy, and rather than being anti-imperialist, Maoism is simply nationalist.Until and unless you explain why Maoism is nationalist, it seems rather obvious that you oppose it just because it is anti-imperialist and your main goal is to defend imperialism.


Communism is the only thing that is opposed to capitalism, communists are people who maintain a class line, this means holding an inherently and unwavering internationalist outlook. Maoists are not communists, their program is merely the juridicial abolition of private property, which does nothing to emancipate the working class from it's alienation to the conditions of production.The problem is that you are not a communist. Either your understanding of Maoism and internationalism are highly flawed or you attack revolutionary movements consciously.



A militia defending imperialism? You mean little kids? As young as 6 months old? You're disguisting. Do you really not know what human shields are or are you just pretending to be this ignorant ?


The Naxalite struggle is not a proletarian revolution, it is a nationalist struggle which is not and cannot do anything to challenge capitalism, which of course can only be overcome internationally and on a world scale.Prove that it is nationalist and not proletarian. With examples from the policies and actions of the Indian Maoists.


No one can 'lead' or 'organise' the working class for themselves, this just reinforces the proletariats subjugation to capital, instead, groups like the ICC wish to serve as platforms of discussion and political orientation so that the proletariat can excercise class war and then excercise power as a whole.This is a problem of left-coms in general; they can never answer simple questions in a straight-forward manner. Why are you avoiding the main question ? How successful has the ICC been in India in tackling the major issues that I mentioned ? Instead of taking up arms against the murderous Indian state everywhere it can, the half-starved Indian proletariat will come to listen to the "discussion" of your pseudo-communist organization ICC ?



The ICC denounces all capitalist factions, this including bourgeois organisations such as the Maoists, only advocating the politics of the proletariat.The ICC is a capitalist faction itself. It does nothing to advance the proletarian revolution. It only defends imperialism by attacking true revolutionary movements.

[Savage]

I understood very well that you are running out of excuses.
lol, you're an idiot.


So are you advocating the enlistment of factory owners in the ranks of the ICC ?The point was that communism is not a lifestyle, but perhaps Engels was not a communist? Of course, your very uneducated on this front, here's a good starting point http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/index.htm (skip the first few chapters, people tend to have trouble with them)


Exactly this type of slandering is what agents of imperialism like the ICC exist for. Defend your stand with examples relevant to the Indian Maoist movement, or you will be identifying yourself more and more with the class you falsely claim to oppose.You uphold capitalists states such as Maoist China, the USSR, Cuba etc, wherein the proletariat was alienated from the conditions of production, which of course took the form of capital. You intend to create a similar capitalist state in India, which of course, would be bourgeois and reactionary.


Until and unless you explain why Maoism is nationalist, it seems rather obvious that you oppose it just because it is anti-imperialist and your main goal is to defend imperialism.As I said before, Maoism and similar bourgeois tendencies defend the existence of of bourgeois nations and reject any form of proletarian internationalism, you good sir, are an imperialist.


The problem is that you are not a communist. Either your understanding of Maoism and internationalism are highly flawed or you attack revolutionary movements consciously.I understand Maoism as the school of thought advocated by Mao, who was a reactionary. You have absolutely no idea what internationalism is, so that's probably part of the reason why you are not a communist or a revolutionary.


Do you really not know what human shields are or are you just pretending to be this ignorant ?Fucking hell you're a pig, I suppose raping and then hacking to death those pregnant women was something completely unavoidable was it?


Prove that it is nationalist and not proletarian. With examples from the policies and actions of the Indian Maoists.The Indian Maoists are attempting a national liberation struggle, this is inherently nationalist. Once in power, they will attempt to model a state based on that commanded by Mao himself, this state of course being capitalist, if you wish to gain an in-depth understanding of why nationalization is a capitalist mechanism, then you should read this book: http://libcom.org/library/paresh-chattopadhyay-marxian-concept-capital-soviet-experience

Oh and by the way, Paresh Chattophadyay was a naxalite until he actually read Marx.


Why are you avoiding the main question ? How successful has the ICC been in India in tackling the major issues that I mentioned ? Instead of taking up arms against the murderous Indian state everywhere it can, the half-starved Indian proletariat will come to listen to the "discussion" of your pseudo-communist organization ICC ?The only way for labor to overcome capital is on an international, world scale, the reactionary quest for power by the Indian Maoists is doing nothing for the proletariat. Of course the ICC doesn't participate in the reactionary activity advocated by the Naxalites, raising class conscious is all that any revolutionary organization can do for the proletariat:

"The emancipation of the working class must be the act of the workers themselves" -- Karl Marx


The ICC is a capitalist faction itself. It does nothing to advance the proletarian revolution. It only defends imperialism by attacking true revolutionary movements.Maoism is not a revolutionary movement, the ICC rejects all forms of capitalism, of course they attack you.

[red cat]

lol, you're an idiot.

LOL I should have understood how ICC supporters feel when their blatant lies are exposed.


The point was that communism is not a lifestyle, but perhaps Engels was not a communist? Of course, your very uneducated on this front, here's a good starting point http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/index.htm (skip the first few chapters, people tend to have trouble with them) Engels wasn't a communist ? Wow.


You uphold capitalists states such as Maoist China, the USSR, Cuba etc, wherein the proletariat was alienated from the conditions of production, which of course took the form of capital. You intend to create a similar capitalist state in India, which of course, would be bourgeois and reactionary.I want examples from actual practical policies and actions of Indian Maoists, not more lies about historical communist movements. If you don't know anything about the Indian Maoist movement, then show the courage to admit it.


As I said before, Maoism and similar bourgeois tendencies defend the existence of of bourgeois nations and reject any form of proletarian internationalism, you good sir, are an imperialist. Prove your claims. Where does Maoism reject proletarian internationalism ?


I understand Maoism as the school of thought advocated by Mao, who was a reactionary. You have absolutely no idea what internationalism is, so that's probably part of the reason why you are not a communist or a revolutionary.Before understanding what Maoism is, you must realize that internationalism is not a tiny organization holding "discussions" in different countries, and holding such discussions is not sufficient for being a communist. Understand these and then you will know who or what a revolutionary is.


Fucking hell you're a pig, I suppose raping and then hacking to death those pregnant women was something completely unavoidable was it?Who raped whom ? And who is repeating the lies of imperialist pigs without showing any substantial evidence?


The Indian Maoists are attempting a national liberation struggle, this is inherently nationalist. Once in power, they will attempt to model a state based on that commanded by Mao himself, this state of course being capitalist, if you wish to gain an in-depth understanding of why nationalization is a capitalist mechanism, then you should read this book: http://libcom.org/library/paresh-chattopadhyay-marxian-concept-capital-soviet-experienceAgain, please give examples from the actions of the Indian Maoists rather than trying to distort the meanings of theoretical terms. Which action of Indian Maoists implies that they are trying to create a capitalist state ?



Oh and by the way, Paresh Chattophadyay was a naxalite until he actually read Marx.I know that. Once they enter prison, some of them suddenly discover new meanings of Marxism that somehow help them to refrain from activities outlawed by the state. :rolleyes:


The only way for labor to overcome capital is on an international, world scale, the reactionary quest for power by the Indian Maoists is doing nothing for the proletariat. Wonderful ! The worker who is dying of starvation or is watching his family being raped by state forces will wait until your dream of overcoming capital on "an international, world scale" becomes true. If he fights back, then it is his reactionary quest for power ? This is the true line of the ICC; helping the bourgeois state to murder workers while pacifying them with false hopes.


Of course the ICC doesn't participate in the reactionary activity advocated by the Naxalites, raising class conscious is all that any revolutionary organization can do for the proletariat:Right. Attacking imperialism and establishing organs of power led by the working class is very reactionary. Of course the ICC will oppose this and follow its very revolutionary policy of inaction.


"The emancipation of the working class must be the act of the workers themselves" -- Karl MarxVery true, and the workers in India are doing so through their vanguard party which is the Maoist CP.


Maoism is not a revolutionary movement, the ICC rejects all forms of capitalism, of course they attack you. The ICC only pretends to reject capitalism. It is really the left-wing of capital that it accuses other organizations of being. Nothing else can explain its reluctance to participate in major aspects of Indian class struggle and its continuous false propaganda against Maoists. It is easy to see that the Maoist movement is defeating imperialism and causing the workers and peasants to seize power, while the ICC, despite its tall-talk, is contributing nothing substantial to any revolutionary movement. Instead most of its energy seems to be directed in attacking revolutionary movements. So it is very clear that the ICC is an organization backed by imperialism, and is meant for protecting imperialism and derailing worker's movements.

[Savage]

LOL I should have understood how ICC supporters feel when their blatant lies are exposed.
You really are a child.


Engels wasn't a communist ? Wow.Wow, you are even less intelligent than I thought, as you obviously do not understand sarcasm. I was implying that you do not believe that Engels was a communist because of his life style and background, but of course, basic polemics are something that you've got a grasp of, as you have continuously misunderstood most of what I have said.


I want examples from actual practical policies and actions of Indian Maoists, not more lies about historical communist movements. If you don't know anything about the Indian Maoist movement, then show the courage to admit it.So the Naxalites do not wish to follow in the footsteps of Mao or Stalin? The Indian Maoists are not in power, so I cannot critique their state policies, all we can do is assume that they will conform to the state policies of Mao himself and therefore criticize those. As for a critique of the Indian Maoist movement, perhaps you'd like to hear from your buds at the ICC:

''The ICC made a brief presentation on the 'revolutionary perspectives' being peddled by different varieties of leftists, in particular the Naxalites (Maoists), and others in India. Since the 1960s a large array of Maoists, in India and other 'third world' countries, have talked of a 'new democratic' revolution in conjunction with the so-called 'progressive' and 'national bourgeois' revolutions. The underlining mystification is one of 'India Mortgaged' by a 'comprador bourgeoisie', a ruling class acting on behalf of foreign interests. But because recent decades have given the most naked display of the Indian bourgeoisie's imperialist appetites, the mystifications of 'India Mortgaged' and 'national liberation' have lost their hold. Some Maoists have now come up with the idea of a national 'socialist revolution', just as much marked by nationalism and patriotism. This is the Dalit movement, the political expression of the ideology of the petty bourgeoisie and bourgeoisie among the lowest and untouchable castes, that talks of 'Dalit Liberation' instead of class struggle. Throughout the bourgeois left there are claims to have discovered revolutionary potential in forces other than the working class - peasants, tribal communities, lower castes, students, women. The proletarian revolution - the only revolution The entry of capitalism into its decadent phase in the early 20th century did not only have an impact on the most advanced capitalist countries. The bourgeoisie was not reactionary in some countries while still retaining a progressive or even 'revolutionary' role in the 'third world'. The entirety of capitalist relations - wage labour, commodity production, money economy, nation states - wherever they existed they became fetters on the progress of humanity. Capitalism everywhere became a reactionary system. It needed to be destroyed everywhere. The only revolution that can destroy world capitalism is the revolution of the world working class, the only revolutionary class under capitalism. It's only the bourgeois left that talks of any other sort of 'revolution'. And when it does it's to mobilise the working class in the service of national capitals.
When Marx spoke of society being more and more split into two great camps, that of the working class and the bourgeoisie, he was not blind to the capitalist reality of his times. He knew that the peasantry still constituted a substantial proportion of the population even in advanced capitalist countries in Europe. But owing to his deep understanding of capitalism, he insisted that the peasantry in capitalism is a class of the past. Its dreams are those of a petty proprietor, individual peasants only change their circumstances by joining the working class or the bourgeoisie (or becoming completely destitute). As a class it is incapable of waging a revolutionary struggle for the destruction of capitalism
This applies perfectly to the situation in countries like India. The peasantry has been torn into warring strata. On one hand there is the landed peasant, part of the bourgeoisie that owns local transport, flour and rice mills and other means of production. On the other hand there is the rural proletariat. In between are the peasants who need to mechanise or modernise to survive; they take on loans which they can't repay, they are pushed into indebtedness and the mass suicides of whole peasant families. These have been seen in the 'advanced' states of India (Andhra Pradesh, Punjab and Haryana). This is all part of a 'green revolution' encouraged by a 'peasant friendly' government that is helping poor peasants by giving them more loans� This stratum lives an insecure existence, their only prospects are death, despair or disappearance into other strata. Of all the classes within capitalism only the working class is capable of waging a revolutionary struggle for the destruction of capitalism.
Maoism emerged as a patriotic, nationalistic current that has openly advocated, and at one time or another gone into alliances with war lords and factions of the bourgeoisie. It has played the game of one or other imperialist power at different moments. After the triumph of the Stalinist counter-revolution in Russia Maoism emerged, not as a proletarian revolutionary current, but as a child of the counter-revolution.''



Prove your claims. Where does Maoism reject proletarian internationalism ?
Before understanding what Maoism is, you must realize that internationalism is not a tiny organization holding "discussions" in different countries, and holding such discussions is not sufficient for being a communist. Understand these and then you will know who or what a revolutionary is.Internationalism as a political position inherent in communism it is the rejection of any national ideologies and sentiment (including bourgeois 'national liberation' theories), in practice, it is the proletariat commanding control on a world scale. Being a communist means you support the movement towards the emancipation of the proletariat, this is not something that any Maoist organization does. You obviously have no understanding of internationalism, I'll let my boy Ilyich Ulyanov give you a lil' lesson:

23rd April 1918:
"We shall achieve final victory only when we succeed at last in conclusively smashing international imperialism, which relies on the tremendous strength of its equipment and discipline. But we shall achieve victory only together with all the workers of other countries, of the whole worldÉ" (LCW, Vol. 27, p. 231.)

14th May 1918:
"To wait until the working classes carry out a revolution on an international scale means that everyone will remain suspended in mid-air It may begin with brilliant success in one country and then go through agonising periods, since final victory is only possible on a world scale, and only by the joint efforts of the workers of all countries." (LCW, Vol. 27, pp. 372-3.)

29th July 1918:

"We never harboured the illusion that the forces of the proletariat and the revolutionary people of any one country, however heroic and however organised and disciplined they might be, could overthrow international imperialism. That can be done only by the joint efforts of the workers of the world We never deceived ourselves into thinking this could be done by the efforts of one country alone. We knew that our efforts were inevitably leading to a worldwide revolution, and that the war begun by the imperialist governments could not be stopped by the efforts of those governments themselves. It can be stopped only by the efforts of all workers; and when we came to power, our task was to retain that power, that torch of socialism, so that it might scatter as many sparks as possible to add to the growing flames of socialist revolution." (LCW, Vol. 28, pp. 24-5.)

8th November 1918:
"From the very beginning of the October Revolution, foreign policy and international relations have been the main question facing us. Not merely because from now on all the states of the world are being firmly linked by imperialism into one, dirty, bloody mass, but because the complete victory of the socialist revolution in one country alone is inconceivable and demands the most active co-operation of at least several advanced countries, which do not include Russia We have never been so near to world proletarian revolution as we are now. We have proved we were not mistaken in banking on world proletarian revolution Even if they crush one country, they can never crush the world proletarian revolution, they will only add fuel to the flames that will consume them all." (LCW, Vol. 28, pp. 151-64.)

20th November 1918:
"The transformation of our Russian Revolution into a socialist revolution was not a dubious venture but a necessity, for there was no other alternative: Anglo-French and American imperialism will inevitably destroy the independence and freedom of Russia if the world socialist revolution, world Bolshevism, does not triumph." (LCW, Vol. 28, p. 188.)

15th March 1919:
"Complete and final victory on a world scale cannot be achieved in Russia alone; it can be achieved only when the proletariat is victorious in at least all the advanced countries, or, at all events, in some of the largest of the advanced countries. Only then shall we be able to say with absolute confidence that the cause of the proletariat has triumphed, that our first objective - the overthrow of capitalism - has been achieved. We have achieved this objective in one country, and this confronts us with a second task. Since Soviet power has been established, since the bourgeoisie has been overthrown in one country, the second task in to wage the struggle on a world scale, on a different plane, the struggle of the proletarian state surrounded by capitalist states." (LCW, Vol. 29, pp. 151-64.)

5th December 1919:
"Both prior to October and during the October Revolution, we always said that we regard ourselves and can only regard ourselves as one of the contingents of the international proletarian army We always said that the victory of the socialist revolution therefore, can only be regarded as final when it becomes the victory of the proletariat in at least several advanced countries." (LCW, Vol. 30, pp. 207-8.)

End of February 1922:
"But we have not finished building even the foundations of socialist economy and the hostile powers of moribund capitalism can still deprive us of that. We must clearly appreciate this and frankly admit it; for there is nothing more dangerous than illusions And there is absolutely nothing terrible in admitting this bitter truth; for we have always urged and reiterated the elementary truth of Marxism - that the joint efforts of the workers of several advanced countries are needed for the victory of socialism." (LCW, Vol. 33, p. 206.)

And here's ya boy Stalin being a REVISIONIST


"Howard: Does this statement of yours mean that the Soviet Union has to any degree abandoned its plans and intentions to bring about a world revolution?
Stalin: We never had any such plans or intentions.
Howard: You appreciate, no doubt Mr Stalin, that much of the world has long entertained a different impression?
Stalin: This is the product of misunderstanding.
Howard: A tragic misunderstanding?
Stalin: No, comic. Or perhaps tragi-comic"
Roy Howard and Stalin. (Roy Howard-Stalin interview, March/April, Communist International, 1936.)




Who raped whom ? And who is repeating the lies of imperialist pigs without showing any substantial evidence?Here's a story about CP members raping and brutally murdering a young girl, the police did nothing to stop it, but of course, this is propaganda right? The Maoists couldn't possibly do anything wrong? They're infallible, and anything even marginally critical of them is obvious bourgeois propaganda, even when the peasantry and proletariat themselves are the ones complaining about the Naxalites.


The Real Story and event's

At around 5:00AM on 18th of December 2006, Tapasi Malik the only young daughter of Monoronjan Malik, a sharecropper went out in the field to answer nature’s call. They generally go out at the wee hours in the morning but the spot is not very far from their homestead. The spot happened to be now falling near to the guarded area- the area that is now guarded with barbed wires by the state government. The state government guards a space of about 1000 acres to be given over to TATA MOTORS toward their mini car factory.

CPM goons and the police dragged Tapasi into the guarded area. She was then repeatedly gang raped and then to wipe out any proof of rape she was taken to a open pit and burnt off live.The abdominal area was specifically totally burnt off.

The villagers came to see the fire around 6:00 AM and rushed to the spot. The police appeared and did not allow the villagers to approach. They baton-charged them away, while they were frantically trying to remove the burnt portions of her body from the pit. The police then immediately declared that it was a case of a suicide.

They then caught hold of her father and forced him to write that she had some family problems that led her to commit suicide. Immediately the villagers pounced upon the police, they tore off all the papers and then forced the police to rewrite them. Meanwhile the leaders of opposition parties and the leader of the opposition in the legislative assembly came in and made the police rewrite the FIR.

The dubiousness of the suicide theory spread by the
CPM propoganda machinery is crystal clear.

1. A girl of a peasant family would have used easily available pesticides for that purpose but it has now been proven that a complex aromatic organic compound, more volatile than kerosene, was used to set Tapasi on fire. It was done so that no evidence remained,This has been confirmed by D.P. Tarenia, the CID inspector-general.

2. A girl would not spray petrol on her abdomen to get herself killed, generally people spray these stuff from above.

3. Why should a girl try to seek a pit to commit suicide and why should she first go down the pit and then set herself on fire ?

The pit was dug so that she could be buried and all her traces would disappear and she would become just another name in the missing list at the local police station.

4. Her hair was found strewn all over the different parts deep
inside the guarded area in different spots.It had been ripped off from her
scalp while she was still alive.

5. She was found with her tongue protruding out,
which clearly proves she was tortured before she was burnt.

6. Her loin clothes lay far apart from her body.

7. Why would a girl choose a protected area and heavily guarded area
to commit suicide ?

8. How can a girl like that get into such a heavily guarded area
if she even wanted to ?

9. Why did the police try to push a statement through her
father that she committed suicide ?

10.The cuts on her ankles, has now led the CID to believe that she was
dragged through the field by her hair....

This was the horror of the last moments of Tapasi Malik's short life .
These are the unanswered questions to this fantastic suicide theory
spread by the CPM propoganda machinery.


What has really happened behind the scenes.

1. Tapashi - 16 year old peasant girl was actually a leading figure in organizing the movement from the field. She did not shift places to be in the limelight when the press came. She was embedded there. A girl who while still in her school led the sit in hunger strike at the main village. She was actually coming closer to the Naxalites.

2. CPM goons were targeting her right from the day they started pouncing on the villages. She however averted arrest and that is why the police and the CPM cadres were all seething with rage and were waiting for the opportunity to settle scores which presented itself yesterday.

3. She is one among a handful of young girls who organized the movement at the grassroots level.

4. CPM local leader Bimal Safui conspired to “teach her a lesson” and these goons and the police declared that openly, while ferreting suspected naxalites from the villages.

Tapasi is the second martyr , the first one was Rajkumar Bul who succumbed to the police lathicharge on 25th of September. Tapasi’s death was brutal. The people now are far more united and now they are on the ground fighting. The whole of West Bengal is now volcanic. Peasants of areas that have been targeted for forcible taking over are up in arms and have now vowed to engage in militant resistances.

Tapasi lives now and will live as long as the peasantry will
continue to fight against the marauders and
capitalist roaders.
Which action of Indian Maoists implies that they are trying to create a capitalist state ?Their mission statement is to turn India into a 'Marxist State', obviously based on the exploits of Stalin and Mao. As these people were the cults behind their respective capitalist states, we can assume that the Maoist nationalists are attempting to do the same, because as Lenin told you before, national liberation is not proletarian revolution.


I know that. Once they enter prison, some of them suddenly discover new meanings of Marxism that somehow help them to refrain from activities outlawed by the state. :rolleyes:By new meanings of Marxism, what you mean is any meaning of Marxism, since I know of ex-naxalites who were told not to read Marx, because of course 'The more you read the less you know'-Mao. This statement also made me laugh, because there's an ICC'er on revleft who I'm aware was recently repressed by the Lebanese state for communist activity, and perhaps you are also not aware of the 8 left communist militants from the “Socialist Workers’ League of Korea” (Sanoryun) who are now incarcerated?


Wonderful ! The worker who is dying of starvation or is watching his family being raped by state forces will wait until your dream of overcoming capital on "an international, world scale" becomes true. If he fights back, then it is his reactionary quest for power ? This is the true line of the ICC; helping the bourgeois state to murder workers while pacifying them with false hopes.I've dealt with this same statement earlier in this post, read it again though, unless you've done too much reading than what is advocated by Chairman Mao? Perhaps you'll be forced into manual labor by your Indian Maoist friends?? :D:D:D


Right. Attacking imperialism and establishing organs of power led by the working class is very reactionary. Of course the ICC will oppose this and follow its very revolutionary policy of inaction.Organs of power led by the working class? You're talking about workers' councils, assemblies, committees, right? Cause it would be awful for you to be advocating a bourgeois parliament as a working class organization of power, because then I would have to redirect you to your crazy uncle Amadeo Bordiga to teach you a lesson.


Very true, and the workers in India are doing so through their vanguard party which is the Maoist CP.I'm sorry, before you were winning on about the ICC 'not leading' or 'organizing' the working class and now you're claiming a quote by Marx which is completely contradictory to your former sentiment? The Maoist CP isn't a vanguard party, the are but the unwanted clowns that would attempt to ruin a legitimate communist party (ooooh what a metaphor!) :laugh:


The ICC only pretends to reject capitalism. It is really the left-wing of capital that it accuses other organizations of being. Nothing else can explain its reluctance to participate in major aspects of Indian class struggle and its continuous false propaganda against Maoists. It is easy to see that the Maoist movement is defeating imperialism and causing the workers and peasants to seize power, while the ICC, despite its tall-talk, is contributing nothing substantial to any revolutionary movement. Instead most of its energy seems to be directed in attacking revolutionary movements. So it is very clear that the ICC is an organization backed by imperialism, and is meant for protecting imperialism and derailing worker's movements.This is again, idiotic reiteration, maybe you have a poor memory or something, I dunno, but the ICC does support and participate in the legitimate workers' struggle in India, rather than attempting to lead misled peasants and getting them to rape 16 year old girls.

''As the working class in India is an important regiment of the international working class, the situation, conditions and problems of the class struggle here cannot be fundamentally different from the international class struggle. The situation, conditions, problems, difficulties and perspectives of the international class struggle have been presented and discussed in detail in reports to our International Congress. The purpose of this report is to analyse and understand the development of class struggle in India in the light of our global framework. The last international congress of the ICC correctly asserted that the struggle of the working class in India, China, Brazil and other ‘emerging economies' will play a very significant role in the process of development of the next upsurge of the world proletarian revolution. These countries have a very large working class population and working class concentrations. Moreover the struggles in these countries will accelerate the process of development of the international unity and solidarity of the working class, making the various sorts of divisive, concerted efforts of the world bourgeoisie ineffective. Thus it has become a very important task of the ICC as a whole and Communist Internationalist in particular to understand as profoundly as possible the conditions of the working class struggle, the fermentation going on in its ranks, its strength, weaknesses, difficulties, problems, possibilities, perspectives, and the attacks and manoeuvres of the class enemy to derail the class.
As in the countries in the heartland of capitalism the working class in India has also quite a long history of heroic class struggle, both against direct imperialist exploitation and repression and against the intensified exploitation and oppression by the ‘independent' native bourgeoisie since 1947. Thousands of working class people have been killed; more have been injured, repressed and imprisoned in very inhuman conditions for years at a time. But this has failed to crush the militant spirit of the working class. This history of heroic struggle has to be profoundly understood as an indispensable task. We are not going into this detail in this report. We are only focusing on some important struggles in the recent period. These struggles are perfectly in line with the important struggles mentioned in the report on the international class struggle and their significant characteristics.
The struggles of the diamond workers in Gujarat, the struggles of the Hyundai workers in Chennai, auto part workers in Coimbatore, struggles of the auto and auto parts industry workers very near to the Indian capital region are some of the most important struggles that have taken place in spite of the lofty claims of the Indian bourgeoisie about successfully overcoming the worst effects of the crisis and being well set up on the way to recovery. In Gujarat, unorganised contract workers spearheaded the struggle. In Gurgaon these were workers of the auto companies. In Gujarat the diamond workers went on wildcat strike. This strike spread very rapidly to many other cities where diamond polishing is done. All these struggles have been violently crushed by the ‘democratic' state machinery. Other struggles of the working class in various forms have taken place in various parts of India: There have been important strikes in the public sector - bank workers' strike, Air India pilots' strike, all India strike by oil workers in January 2009, and a strike by government employees in January 2009 in Bihar. Some of these have been the expression of bitter conflicts where the state tried to hit the workers very hard and crush them. This was the case with the oil workers' strike in January 2009 when the state used ESMA [Essential Services Maintenance Act] and other laws to crush the workers and resorted to various repressive actions. This was also the case with the strike of government employees in Bihar where the government wanted to teach the employees a lesson. In the case of the oil workers' strike the government later backed off from further repression as there was a threat of the strike spreading to other public sector undertakings.
BSNL employees went on strike on 27 August 2008; on 24 September of the same year bank employees went on strike. On 1 October2008 there was a strike by cine workers. On 7 January 2009 oil workers of IOC, BPCL, HPCL and GAIL went on strike for higher wages. Airport workers went on strike on 30 April, 2009. On May 20/21 there was a strike by mine workers in the Bailadilla mines. On 25 May PWD workers in Goa struck for higher wages. On 12 June 2009 bank employees again went on strike. Workers of MRF Tires and Nokia factories in Tamilnadu were also engaged in struggles on 22 September 2009 against their bosses around the same time. In addition to these there have been important struggles of the dock workers and jute mill workers in West Bengal. In a suburb of Kolkata jute mill workers were so enraged against the management staff that they pounced upon and killed some of them. Tea garden workers have also gone on strike several times
Struggles of the new generation (PTTI)

We have seen in other parts of the world a new generation of workers or would-be workers entering struggles on a proletarian terrain to defend their future against the capitalist states. The struggles of the students in France and Greece are very important, significant and inspiring. The efforts at self-organisation, general assembly, extension, openness to discussion, attitude o learning from the past experience of the working class, solidarity and unity, questioning capitalism, expressing strong indignation against its very existence any further are the precursor of the new evolving situation of the class struggle.
In this context, the struggle of the PTTI (Primary Teachers' Training Institute) students in West Bengal is quite significant. These students have either passed the training course from government recognised training institutes or were in the way of completing the course. But these institutes have now been declared to be unrecognised by the central educational authority (NCTE). So the degree certificates they got after successfully completing the course have now become illegal and valueless in the employment market. Thus these students have suddenly become unemployable. Even thousands of teachers who are already serving as teachers in government Primary schools are also victims of this declaration because their degree certificates have also been made illegal at the stroke of a pen by the same educational authority controlled by the central government. These students have spent a lot of money in undergoing the training course. Some of these students were so frustrated that they committed suicide.
This precarious situation pushed students to launch struggle for getting employment as teachers. Seventy six thousand such students have been involved in this struggle. For those who have already been serving as teachers, the threat of losing their job stares them in the face because of this completely irrational political game of ruling parties both in central and state government. In the beginning there was an element of self-organisation and mistrust against all the political parties and trade unions of the left and right of capital. They asserted that they will not allow themselves to be pawns in the political chess game of various political parties. Very often there have been violent confrontations with the police force, repression by the state and imprisonment of the students. In spite of this, the struggle of these PTTI students points to the evolving state of class struggle of not only the new generation of workers or would-be workers but also other sectors of the working class in the near future.
Some of the very important characteristics of these struggles are given below.
Simultaneity of Struggles

Simultaneity of attacks means greater potential for simultaneity of struggles. There will be an increasing likelihood that workers from different sectors under attack will start to go beyond ‘their' sector, beyond ‘their' union and aim to seek solidarity from other workers as a first step towards pushing back the attacks.
What we see today is that more and more workers are willing to take up the struggle against the attacks of the bosses. While the struggles are more numerous in many parts of the country, there is a tendency toward simultaneity of struggle in the same geographic areas as well. This opens the possibility of linking up and extension of struggles. It can be seen in the struggle of diamond workers in Gujarat who went on wildcat strikes simultaneously in several cities. This can be seen in strikes of auto workers in Tamilnadu and Pune and Nasik where several strikes in the same geographic area broke out at the same time. The bourgeoisie could sense this threat and scaled back its repression. This simultaneity is the result of identical attacks that all sectors of workers are facing today. The most significant strike was the struggle of diamond workers in Surat which seemed to have some elements of the mass strike, since workers in Rajkot and Amreli districts also went on strike in support of their demands.
In Ahmedabad district, hundreds of diamond workers pelted stones and tried to enforce closure in Bapunagar area. The strike in the diamond industry over wages spread to Palanpur and Mehsana in north Gujarat. Workers in a number of factories in Gurgaon-Manesar have been waging struggle against their bosses. In Honda Motorcycles, workers had been agitating for several months for better wages and against the practice of increasing casualisation of permanent jobs. Workers of other factories actively agitated in their support. This opened the possibility of extension and unification of the struggles, the only way in which workers can fight and push back the attacks of the bosses. This the bourgeoisie fear most and the unions want to avert
Class solidarity and extension

No doubt there is a dynamic for possible extension, self-organisation, control and development of class solidarity in the recent struggles. But for the realisation of this dynamic, it is important for the workers to understand the evolving machinations of the capitalist state, the role of the unions and to take the struggles more and more in their own hands. The situation is developing in a direction in which it is crucial for revolutionaries to profoundly understand this dynamic and properly intervene so that the struggling workers are able to realise both the potential and strength of the struggles and steer clear of the union traps.
In the struggles at Gurgaon, in the face of working class outrage at the killing of a worker at RICO Auto Industries and the injuring of several others, the role of the unions has been to pre-empt and block this tendency toward extension and unification. By calling a one day general strike, unions tried to sterilise workers' militancy and their will to come together and strengthen class solidarity. Despite this, the strike on 20 October was a demonstration of class solidarity by nearly 100,000 workers. It also expressed their enthusiasm and will to fight and confront the bourgeoisie.
Difficulties in the way of development of struggles

Though there has been passionate involvement of the working class masses in all the struggles mentioned above, almost all these were led by and under the control of the trade unions. In many cases the unions have been compelled to pre-empt the development of struggles on the class terrain through self-organisation and extension by acting first with a radical image. But the fact is that in spite of increasing distrust towards the unions, the working class has not yet been able to go beyond the unions and develop its self-organisation. We should focus on understanding the dynamics of the development of class struggle toward the mass strike and the role played by the revolutionary organisations in this dynamic.
As in other parts of the world here also there is fear and hesitation in the class to jump into immediate struggle against the increasing attacks on living and working conditions. There is a fear of job loss as there are increasing attacks on job security and the replacement of permanent jobs by very low paid temporary contract jobs without any social security. Moreover the conventional methods of struggle in the trade union way are proving to be more and more futile and the real alternative is also not immediately clear. But there is fermentation going on in the class, an urge to understand the stakes of history and to develop its struggles against the bourgeoisie.
The impact of the NGO propaganda and activity, and that of the extreme leftist forces, also put obstacles in the way of development of struggles on a class terrain. The mystification of democracy is also a strong negative factor. All sorts of union based, region based, religion and caste based divisions and sentiments are also important hindrances. All these are temporary; permanent are capitalist relations and crisis, its inherent antagonism and increasing attacks and repression which can not but lead to reflection, fermentation and development of class consciousness, self-organisation and class struggles. But the intervention of revolutionaries is also a very crucial factor in this dynamic.
Bourgeois manoeuvres


The world bourgeoisie has also learned from its experience in controlling, repressing, defeating and crushing the working class. Its aim is intensifying the competition, division and mystification in the class so that the class fails to organise massive, united struggles on a class terrain in a more combative and conscious way. The world bourgeoisie, its economists, scholars, researchers, politicians, trade unionists, business and political executives, are meeting regularly to devise ways and means to achieve this objective. The Indian bourgeoisie is not lagging behind in this task. It is a life and death question to all sectors of the bourgeoisie.
The economic policies of the bourgeoisie have led to rising inflation. As per official statistics food inflation is 18% but in reality it much higher. In the face of this, the majority of the working class is finding it very difficult to make both ends meet. Sensing the danger of mass revolts and to avert this, different factions of the bourgeoisie have been posturing against price rises and carrying out ritualistic ‘struggles'. Given the continuous acceleration of the crisis, the bourgeoisie cannot continue to contain the class struggle for long. The present relative difficulty of the class contains within itself the violent storms of massive outbursts of class struggle in the coming period.
Like in all other parts of the world here also the bourgeoisie and its ‘specialists' are all working overtime to bring home to the working class the message that the crisis is temporary and part of life of the system, that it can be overcome sooner or later, that the worst impact of the crisis is over, that there is quite an encouraging growth in the GDP and exports have already been picking up, that better days are coming soon.
Another tried and tested trap of the bourgeoisie is nationalism. The bourgeoisie and its print and electronic media never tire of reminding the working class of the imperialist designs of China, the dragon, against India, its military expansion, and policy of encirclement. Almost everyday there are news stories of hostile designs and activities of the Pakistani state against the interest of India. Any terrorist activity in any part of India is declared to be the perpetration of elements aided and abetted by the Pakistani state. They are trying their best to rally the working class in its imperialist war on terror. Thus the working class is always being fed with high doses of nationalist fervour. The working class is always being told that India is going to be an important global power economically, politically and militarily and its status in the ‘international community' is being elevated more and more.
Further, the bourgeoisie is leaving no stone unturned to convince the working class that the thought of socialism, communism, and proletarian revolution is utopian. The working class is always being told that the democratic alternative is best alternative and the best method for resolving all problems.
Parties of the extreme left of capital are also trying their best to involve the working class in their ‘new democratic revolution' as the only alternative to the increasing problems of life and livelihood.
But the bourgeoisie has realised that in spite of all their well concerted efforts of mystification, the process of questioning capitalism and coming to consciousness is unstoppable. To derail this process of coming to consciousness and search for a communist alternative, factions of the bourgeoisie distort the essence of marxism while proclaiming that Marx was a great thinker and telling us that marxism is still relevant even today. The ruling class will do all it can to block workers coming to the realisation that only the overthrow of capitalism and the construction of a new society can solve the problems posed by this decomposing system.
CI 3/2/10''

[red cat]

You really are a child.

Sweet. Now back to the point. How exactly are you still defending your comrades' claim when the political affiliations of all big renegade Maoist leaders are known ?


Wow, you are even less intelligent than I thought, as you obviously do not understand sarcasm. I was implying that you do not believe that Engels was a communist because of his life style and background, but of course, basic polemics are something that you've got a grasp of, as you have continuously misunderstood most of what I have said.But the question I have been asking for a long time now is whether such factory owners are members of the ICC or not ? Is this too difficult to understand ?


So the Naxalites do not wish to follow in the footsteps of Mao or Stalin? The Indian Maoists are not in power, so I cannot critique their state policies, all we can do is assume that they will conform to the state policies of Mao himself and therefore criticize those. As for a critique of the Indian Maoist movement, perhaps you'd like to hear from your buds at the ICC:

''The ICC made a brief presentation on the 'revolutionary perspectives' being peddled by different varieties of leftists, in particular the Naxalites (Maoists), and others in India. Since the 1960s a large array of Maoists, in India and other 'third world' countries, have talked of a 'new democratic' revolution in conjunction with the so-called 'progressive' and 'national bourgeois' revolutions. The underlining mystification is one of 'India Mortgaged' by a 'comprador bourgeoisie', a ruling class acting on behalf of foreign interests. But because recent decades have given the most naked display of the Indian bourgeoisie's imperialist appetites, the mystifications of 'India Mortgaged' and 'national liberation' have lost their hold. Some Maoists have now come up with the idea of a national 'socialist revolution', just as much marked by nationalism and patriotism. This is the Dalit movement, the political expression of the ideology of the petty bourgeoisie and bourgeoisie among the lowest and untouchable castes, that talks of 'Dalit Liberation' instead of class struggle. Throughout the bourgeois left there are claims to have discovered revolutionary potential in forces other than the working class - peasants, tribal communities, lower castes, students, women. The proletarian revolution - the only revolution The entry of capitalism into its decadent phase in the early 20th century did not only have an impact on the most advanced capitalist countries. The bourgeoisie was not reactionary in some countries while still retaining a progressive or even 'revolutionary' role in the 'third world'. The entirety of capitalist relations - wage labour, commodity production, money economy, nation states - wherever they existed they became fetters on the progress of humanity. Capitalism everywhere became a reactionary system. It needed to be destroyed everywhere. The only revolution that can destroy world capitalism is the revolution of the world working class, the only revolutionary class under capitalism. It's only the bourgeois left that talks of any other sort of 'revolution'. And when it does it's to mobilise the working class in the service of national capitals.
When Marx spoke of society being more and more split into two great camps, that of the working class and the bourgeoisie, he was not blind to the capitalist reality of his times. He knew that the peasantry still constituted a substantial proportion of the population even in advanced capitalist countries in Europe. But owing to his deep understanding of capitalism, he insisted that the peasantry in capitalism is a class of the past. Its dreams are those of a petty proprietor, individual peasants only change their circumstances by joining the working class or the bourgeoisie (or becoming completely destitute). As a class it is incapable of waging a revolutionary struggle for the destruction of capitalism
This applies perfectly to the situation in countries like India. The peasantry has been torn into warring strata. On one hand there is the landed peasant, part of the bourgeoisie that owns local transport, flour and rice mills and other means of production. On the other hand there is the rural proletariat. In between are the peasants who need to mechanise or modernise to survive; they take on loans which they can't repay, they are pushed into indebtedness and the mass suicides of whole peasant families. These have been seen in the 'advanced' states of India (Andhra Pradesh, Punjab and Haryana). This is all part of a 'green revolution' encouraged by a 'peasant friendly' government that is helping poor peasants by giving them more loans� This stratum lives an insecure existence, their only prospects are death, despair or disappearance into other strata. Of all the classes within capitalism only the working class is capable of waging a revolutionary struggle for the destruction of capitalism.
Maoism emerged as a patriotic, nationalistic current that has openly advocated, and at one time or another gone into alliances with war lords and factions of the bourgeoisie. It has played the game of one or other imperialist power at different moments. After the triumph of the Stalinist counter-revolution in Russia Maoism emerged, not as a proletarian revolutionary current, but as a child of the counter-revolution.''
The ICC and you adopt the same line of avoiding the main questions. We do not swallow bourgeois propaganda. So we evaluate the USSR and PRC in the light of the ongoing Indian revolution. Perhaps you don't know that in some parts of India, parallel workers' state are run. Study those and give examples from those governments or any revolutionary actions of the Maoists to support your allegations.


Internationalism as a political position inherent in communism it is the rejection of any national ideologies and sentiment (including bourgeois 'national liberation' theories), in practice, it is the proletariat commanding control on a world scale. Being a communist means you support the movement towards the emancipation of the proletariat, this is not something that any Maoist organization does.To the ICC, this means holding worthless discussions with a few dozens of members from different countries. To Maoists it means spreading the war of the proletariat to overthrow the bourgeoisie throughout the world. It is obvious who are true internationalists and who are frauds.



You obviously have no understanding of internationalism, I'll let my boy Ilyich Ulyanov give you a lil' lesson:Don't be that confident about Lenin's line, or I'll have to remind you what exactly he thought of left-coms.

23rd April 1918:
"We shall achieve final victory only when we succeed at last in conclusively smashing international imperialism, which relies on the tremendous strength of its equipment and discipline. But we shall achieve victory only together with all the workers of other countries, of the whole worldÉ" (LCW, Vol. 27, p. 231.)

14th May 1918:
"To wait until the working classes carry out a revolution on an international scale means that everyone will remain suspended in mid-air It may begin with brilliant success in one country and then go through agonising periods, since final victory is only possible on a world scale, and only by the joint efforts of the workers of all countries." (LCW, Vol. 27, pp. 372-3.)

29th July 1918:

"We never harboured the illusion that the forces of the proletariat and the revolutionary people of any one country, however heroic and however organised and disciplined they might be, could overthrow international imperialism. That can be done only by the joint efforts of the workers of the world We never deceived ourselves into thinking this could be done by the efforts of one country alone. We knew that our efforts were inevitably leading to a worldwide revolution, and that the war begun by the imperialist governments could not be stopped by the efforts of those governments themselves. It can be stopped only by the efforts of all workers; and when we came to power, our task was to retain that power, that torch of socialism, so that it might scatter as many sparks as possible to add to the growing flames of socialist revolution." (LCW, Vol. 28, pp. 24-5.)

8th November 1918:
"From the very beginning of the October Revolution, foreign policy and international relations have been the main question facing us. Not merely because from now on all the states of the world are being firmly linked by imperialism into one, dirty, bloody mass, but because the complete victory of the socialist revolution in one country alone is inconceivable and demands the most active co-operation of at least several advanced countries, which do not include Russia We have never been so near to world proletarian revolution as we are now. We have proved we were not mistaken in banking on world proletarian revolution Even if they crush one country, they can never crush the world proletarian revolution, they will only add fuel to the flames that will consume them all." (LCW, Vol. 28, pp. 151-64.)

20th November 1918:
"The transformation of our Russian Revolution into a socialist revolution was not a dubious venture but a necessity, for there was no other alternative: Anglo-French and American imperialism will inevitably destroy the independence and freedom of Russia if the world socialist revolution, world Bolshevism, does not triumph." (LCW, Vol. 28, p. 188.)

15th March 1919:
"Complete and final victory on a world scale cannot be achieved in Russia alone; it can be achieved only when the proletariat is victorious in at least all the advanced countries, or, at all events, in some of the largest of the advanced countries. Only then shall we be able to say with absolute confidence that the cause of the proletariat has triumphed, that our first objective - the overthrow of capitalism - has been achieved. We have achieved this objective in one country, and this confronts us with a second task. Since Soviet power has been established, since the bourgeoisie has been overthrown in one country, the second task in to wage the struggle on a world scale, on a different plane, the struggle of the proletarian state surrounded by capitalist states." (LCW, Vol. 29, pp. 151-64.)

5th December 1919:
"Both prior to October and during the October Revolution, we always said that we regard ourselves and can only regard ourselves as one of the contingents of the international proletarian army We always said that the victory of the socialist revolution therefore, can only be regarded as final when it becomes the victory of the proletariat in at least several advanced countries." (LCW, Vol. 30, pp. 207-8.)

End of February 1922:
"But we have not finished building even the foundations of socialist economy and the hostile powers of moribund capitalism can still deprive us of that. We must clearly appreciate this and frankly admit it; for there is nothing more dangerous than illusions And there is absolutely nothing terrible in admitting this bitter truth; for we have always urged and reiterated the elementary truth of Marxism - that the joint efforts of the workers of several advanced countries are needed for the victory of socialism." (LCW, Vol. 33, p. 206.)

And here's ya boy Stalin being a REVISIONIST


"Howard: Does this statement of yours mean that the Soviet Union has to any degree abandoned its plans and intentions to bring about a world revolution?
Stalin: We never had any such plans or intentions.
Howard: You appreciate, no doubt Mr Stalin, that much of the world has long entertained a different impression?
Stalin: This is the product of misunderstanding.
Howard: A tragic misunderstanding?
Stalin: No, comic. Or perhaps tragi-comic"
Roy Howard and Stalin. (Roy Howard-Stalin interview, March/April, Communist International, 1936.)Yes, Stalin said all that but helped the Indian and Chinese movements as much as he thought he could.


Here's a story about CP members raping and brutally murdering a young girl, the police did nothing to stop it, but of course, this is propaganda right? The Maoists couldn't possibly do anything wrong? They're infallible, and anything even marginally critical of them is obvious bourgeois propaganda, even when the peasantry and proletariat themselves are the ones complaining about the Naxalites.I love how ICC supporters twist and turn when they are questioned point by point. Initially the allegation was against the PCP. But since you couldn't show any evidence, it has been proved to be yet another lie of yours. Now let's inspect this alleged case of rape against the Naxalites :

The Real Story and event's

At around 5:00AM on 18th of December 2006, Tapasi Malik the only young daughter of Monoronjan Malik, a sharecropper went out in the field to answer nature’s call. They generally go out at the wee hours in the morning but the spot is not very far from their homestead. The spot happened to be now falling near to the guarded area- the area that is now guarded with barbed wires by the state government. The state government guards a space of about 1000 acres to be given over to TATA MOTORS toward their mini car factory.

CPM goons and the police dragged Tapasi into the guarded area. She was then repeatedly gang raped and then to wipe out any proof of rape she was taken to a open pit and burnt off live.The abdominal area was specifically totally burnt off.

The villagers came to see the fire around 6:00 AM and rushed to the spot. The police appeared and did not allow the villagers to approach. They baton-charged them away, while they were frantically trying to remove the burnt portions of her body from the pit. The police then immediately declared that it was a case of a suicide.

They then caught hold of her father and forced him to write that she had some family problems that led her to commit suicide. Immediately the villagers pounced upon the police, they tore off all the papers and then forced the police to rewrite them. Meanwhile the leaders of opposition parties and the leader of the opposition in the legislative assembly came in and made the police rewrite the FIR.

The dubiousness of the suicide theory spread by the
CPM propoganda machinery is crystal clear.

1. A girl of a peasant family would have used easily available pesticides for that purpose but it has now been proven that a complex aromatic organic compound, more volatile than kerosene, was used to set Tapasi on fire. It was done so that no evidence remained,This has been confirmed by D.P. Tarenia, the CID inspector-general.

2. A girl would not spray petrol on her abdomen to get herself killed, generally people spray these stuff from above.

3. Why should a girl try to seek a pit to commit suicide and why should she first go down the pit and then set herself on fire ?

The pit was dug so that she could be buried and all her traces would disappear and she would become just another name in the missing list at the local police station.

4. Her hair was found strewn all over the different parts deep
inside the guarded area in different spots.It had been ripped off from her
scalp while she was still alive.

5. She was found with her tongue protruding out,
which clearly proves she was tortured before she was burnt.

6. Her loin clothes lay far apart from her body.

7. Why would a girl choose a protected area and heavily guarded area
to commit suicide ?

8. How can a girl like that get into such a heavily guarded area
if she even wanted to ?

9. Why did the police try to push a statement through her
father that she committed suicide ?

10.The cuts on her ankles, has now led the CID to believe that she was
dragged through the field by her hair....

This was the horror of the last moments of Tapasi Malik's short life .
These are the unanswered questions to this fantastic suicide theory
spread by the CPM propoganda machinery.


What has really happened behind the scenes.

1. Tapashi - 16 year old peasant girl was actually a leading figure in organizing the movement from the field. She did not shift places to be in the limelight when the press came. She was embedded there. A girl who while still in her school led the sit in hunger strike at the main village. She was actually coming closer to the Naxalites.

2. CPM goons were targeting her right from the day they started pouncing on the villages. She however averted arrest and that is why the police and the CPM cadres were all seething with rage and were waiting for the opportunity to settle scores which presented itself yesterday.

3. She is one among a handful of young girls who organized the movement at the grassroots level.

4. CPM local leader Bimal Safui conspired to “teach her a lesson” and these goons and the police declared that openly, while ferreting suspected naxalites from the villages.

Tapasi is the second martyr , the first one was Rajkumar Bul who succumbed to the police lathicharge on 25th of September. Tapasi’s death was brutal. The people now are far more united and now they are on the ground fighting. The whole of West Bengal is now volcanic. Peasants of areas that have been targeted for forcible taking over are up in arms and have now vowed to engage in militant resistances.

Tapasi lives now and will live as long as the peasantry will
continue to fight against the marauders and
capitalist roaders. This was the report. There is no mention of any naxalite organization in the whole report, yet you clearly see the involvement of naxalites. You are even worse than the propagandists of the fascist Indian state. Your dishonesty and lies know no bounds.



Their mission statement is to turn India into a 'Marxist State', obviously based on the exploits of Stalin and Mao. As these people were the cults behind their respective capitalist states, we can assume that the Maoist nationalists are attempting to do the same, because as Lenin told you before, national liberation is not proletarian revolution.Again, instead of referring to what Lenin told, why don't you give concrete examples from the Maoist movement itself that confirms its non-proletarian nature ? This is total intellectual dishonesty.


By new meanings of Marxism, what you mean is any meaning of Marxism, since I know of ex-naxalites who were told not to read Marx, because of course 'The more you read the less you know'-Mao.I don't know of any such person. But of course, renegades that have sunken to the level of slandering the revolution will spew such bullshit too. It is quite expected.



This statement also made me laugh, because there's an ICC'er on revleft who I'm aware was recently repressed by the Lebanese state for communist activity, and perhaps you are also not aware of the 8 left communist militants from the “Socialist Workers’ League of Korea” (Sanoryun) who are now incarcerated?Wow ! Eight militants ! What a huge number, and that too, incarcerated. I have never heard of anything more dreadful. :rolleyes:

Also, similar examples from India, please.


I've dealt with this same statement earlier in this post, read it again though, No, you have just avoided the question.


unless you've done too much reading than what is advocated by Chairman Mao? Perhaps you'll be forced into manual labor by your Indian Maoist friends?? :D:D:DHahah no that is what will happen to the factory owners and managerswho constitute the Indian section of the ICC :D


Organs of power led by the working class? You're talking about workers' councils, assemblies, committees, right? Yep.



Cause it would be awful for you to be advocating a bourgeois parliament as a working class organization of power, because then I would have to redirect you to your crazy uncle Amadeo Bordiga to teach you a lesson.

:lol:


I'm sorry, before you were winning on about the ICC 'not leading' or 'organizing' the working class and now you're claiming a quote by Marx which is completely contradictory to your former sentiment?They are not contradictory.


The Maoist CP isn't a vanguard party, the are but the unwanted clowns that would attempt to ruin a legitimate communist party (ooooh what a metaphor!) :laugh:Says a supporter of that organization whose activity in India amounts to nothing more than a day-long circus show in Kanpur.


This is again, idiotic reiteration, maybe you have a poor memory or something, I dunno, but the ICC does support and participate in the legitimate workers' struggle in India, Example ?


rather than attempting to lead misled peasants and getting them to rape 16 year old girls.Which incident are you talking about ? Or is just one more piece of random false informations that characterize your posts ?

''As the working class in India is an important regiment of the international working class, the situation, conditions and problems of the class struggle here cannot be fundamentally different from the international class struggle. The situation, conditions, problems, difficulties and perspectives of the international class struggle have been presented and discussed in detail in reports to our International Congress. The purpose of this report is to analyse and understand the development of class struggle in India in the light of our global framework. The last international congress of the ICC correctly asserted that the struggle of the working class in India, China, Brazil and other ‘emerging economies' will play a very significant role in the process of development of the next upsurge of the world proletarian revolution. These countries have a very large working class population and working class concentrations. Moreover the struggles in these countries will accelerate the process of development of the international unity and solidarity of the working class, making the various sorts of divisive, concerted efforts of the world bourgeoisie ineffective. Thus it has become a very important task of the ICC as a whole and Communist Internationalist in particular to understand as profoundly as possible the conditions of the working class struggle, the fermentation going on in its ranks, its strength, weaknesses, difficulties, problems, possibilities, perspectives, and the attacks and manoeuvres of the class enemy to derail the class.
As in the countries in the heartland of capitalism the working class in India has also quite a long history of heroic class struggle, both against direct imperialist exploitation and repression and against the intensified exploitation and oppression by the ‘independent' native bourgeoisie since 1947. Thousands of working class people have been killed; more have been injured, repressed and imprisoned in very inhuman conditions for years at a time. But this has failed to crush the militant spirit of the working class. This history of heroic struggle has to be profoundly understood as an indispensable task. We are not going into this detail in this report. We are only focusing on some important struggles in the recent period. These struggles are perfectly in line with the important struggles mentioned in the report on the international class struggle and their significant characteristics.
The struggles of the diamond workers in Gujarat, the struggles of the Hyundai workers in Chennai, auto part workers in Coimbatore, struggles of the auto and auto parts industry workers very near to the Indian capital region are some of the most important struggles that have taken place in spite of the lofty claims of the Indian bourgeoisie about successfully overcoming the worst effects of the crisis and being well set up on the way to recovery. In Gujarat, unorganised contract workers spearheaded the struggle. In Gurgaon these were workers of the auto companies. In Gujarat the diamond workers went on wildcat strike. This strike spread very rapidly to many other cities where diamond polishing is done. All these struggles have been violently crushed by the ‘democratic' state machinery. Other struggles of the working class in various forms have taken place in various parts of India: There have been important strikes in the public sector - bank workers' strike, Air India pilots' strike, all India strike by oil workers in January 2009, and a strike by government employees in January 2009 in Bihar. Some of these have been the expression of bitter conflicts where the state tried to hit the workers very hard and crush them. This was the case with the oil workers' strike in January 2009 when the state used ESMA [Essential Services Maintenance Act] and other laws to crush the workers and resorted to various repressive actions. This was also the case with the strike of government employees in Bihar where the government wanted to teach the employees a lesson. In the case of the oil workers' strike the government later backed off from further repression as there was a threat of the strike spreading to other public sector undertakings.
BSNL employees went on strike on 27 August 2008; on 24 September of the same year bank employees went on strike. On 1 October2008 there was a strike by cine workers. On 7 January 2009 oil workers of IOC, BPCL, HPCL and GAIL went on strike for higher wages. Airport workers went on strike on 30 April, 2009. On May 20/21 there was a strike by mine workers in the Bailadilla mines. On 25 May PWD workers in Goa struck for higher wages. On 12 June 2009 bank employees again went on strike. Workers of MRF Tires and Nokia factories in Tamilnadu were also engaged in struggles on 22 September 2009 against their bosses around the same time. In addition to these there have been important struggles of the dock workers and jute mill workers in West Bengal. In a suburb of Kolkata jute mill workers were so enraged against the management staff that they pounced upon and killed some of them. Tea garden workers have also gone on strike several times
Struggles of the new generation (PTTI)

We have seen in other parts of the world a new generation of workers or would-be workers entering struggles on a proletarian terrain to defend their future against the capitalist states. The struggles of the students in France and Greece are very important, significant and inspiring. The efforts at self-organisation, general assembly, extension, openness to discussion, attitude o learning from the past experience of the working class, solidarity and unity, questioning capitalism, expressing strong indignation against its very existence any further are the precursor of the new evolving situation of the class struggle.
In this context, the struggle of the PTTI (Primary Teachers' Training Institute) students in West Bengal is quite significant. These students have either passed the training course from government recognised training institutes or were in the way of completing the course. But these institutes have now been declared to be unrecognised by the central educational authority (NCTE). So the degree certificates they got after successfully completing the course have now become illegal and valueless in the employment market. Thus these students have suddenly become unemployable. Even thousands of teachers who are already serving as teachers in government Primary schools are also victims of this declaration because their degree certificates have also been made illegal at the stroke of a pen by the same educational authority controlled by the central government. These students have spent a lot of money in undergoing the training course. Some of these students were so frustrated that they committed suicide.
This precarious situation pushed students to launch struggle for getting employment as teachers. Seventy six thousand such students have been involved in this struggle. For those who have already been serving as teachers, the threat of losing their job stares them in the face because of this completely irrational political game of ruling parties both in central and state government. In the beginning there was an element of self-organisation and mistrust against all the political parties and trade unions of the left and right of capital. They asserted that they will not allow themselves to be pawns in the political chess game of various political parties. Very often there have been violent confrontations with the police force, repression by the state and imprisonment of the students. In spite of this, the struggle of these PTTI students points to the evolving state of class struggle of not only the new generation of workers or would-be workers but also other sectors of the working class in the near future.
Some of the very important characteristics of these struggles are given below.
Simultaneity of Struggles

Simultaneity of attacks means greater potential for simultaneity of struggles. There will be an increasing likelihood that workers from different sectors under attack will start to go beyond ‘their' sector, beyond ‘their' union and aim to seek solidarity from other workers as a first step towards pushing back the attacks.
What we see today is that more and more workers are willing to take up the struggle against the attacks of the bosses. While the struggles are more numerous in many parts of the country, there is a tendency toward simultaneity of struggle in the same geographic areas as well. This opens the possibility of linking up and extension of struggles. It can be seen in the struggle of diamond workers in Gujarat who went on wildcat strikes simultaneously in several cities. This can be seen in strikes of auto workers in Tamilnadu and Pune and Nasik where several strikes in the same geographic area broke out at the same time. The bourgeoisie could sense this threat and scaled back its repression. This simultaneity is the result of identical attacks that all sectors of workers are facing today. The most significant strike was the struggle of diamond workers in Surat which seemed to have some elements of the mass strike, since workers in Rajkot and Amreli districts also went on strike in support of their demands.
In Ahmedabad district, hundreds of diamond workers pelted stones and tried to enforce closure in Bapunagar area. The strike in the diamond industry over wages spread to Palanpur and Mehsana in north Gujarat. Workers in a number of factories in Gurgaon-Manesar have been waging struggle against their bosses. In Honda Motorcycles, workers had been agitating for several months for better wages and against the practice of increasing casualisation of permanent jobs. Workers of other factories actively agitated in their support. This opened the possibility of extension and unification of the struggles, the only way in which workers can fight and push back the attacks of the bosses. This the bourgeoisie fear most and the unions want to avert
Class solidarity and extension

No doubt there is a dynamic for possible extension, self-organisation, control and development of class solidarity in the recent struggles. But for the realisation of this dynamic, it is important for the workers to understand the evolving machinations of the capitalist state, the role of the unions and to take the struggles more and more in their own hands. The situation is developing in a direction in which it is crucial for revolutionaries to profoundly understand this dynamic and properly intervene so that the struggling workers are able to realise both the potential and strength of the struggles and steer clear of the union traps.
In the struggles at Gurgaon, in the face of working class outrage at the killing of a worker at RICO Auto Industries and the injuring of several others, the role of the unions has been to pre-empt and block this tendency toward extension and unification. By calling a one day general strike, unions tried to sterilise workers' militancy and their will to come together and strengthen class solidarity. Despite this, the strike on 20 October was a demonstration of class solidarity by nearly 100,000 workers. It also expressed their enthusiasm and will to fight and confront the bourgeoisie.
Difficulties in the way of development of struggles

Though there has been passionate involvement of the working class masses in all the struggles mentioned above, almost all these were led by and under the control of the trade unions. In many cases the unions have been compelled to pre-empt the development of struggles on the class terrain through self-organisation and extension by acting first with a radical image. But the fact is that in spite of increasing distrust towards the unions, the working class has not yet been able to go beyond the unions and develop its self-organisation. We should focus on understanding the dynamics of the development of class struggle toward the mass strike and the role played by the revolutionary organisations in this dynamic.
As in other parts of the world here also there is fear and hesitation in the class to jump into immediate struggle against the increasing attacks on living and working conditions. There is a fear of job loss as there are increasing attacks on job security and the replacement of permanent jobs by very low paid temporary contract jobs without any social security. Moreover the conventional methods of struggle in the trade union way are proving to be more and more futile and the real alternative is also not immediately clear. But there is fermentation going on in the class, an urge to understand the stakes of history and to develop its struggles against the bourgeoisie.
The impact of the NGO propaganda and activity, and that of the extreme leftist forces, also put obstacles in the way of development of struggles on a class terrain. The mystification of democracy is also a strong negative factor. All sorts of union based, region based, religion and caste based divisions and sentiments are also important hindrances. All these are temporary; permanent are capitalist relations and crisis, its inherent antagonism and increasing attacks and repression which can not but lead to reflection, fermentation and development of class consciousness, self-organisation and class struggles. But the intervention of revolutionaries is also a very crucial factor in this dynamic.
Bourgeois manoeuvres


The world bourgeoisie has also learned from its experience in controlling, repressing, defeating and crushing the working class. Its aim is intensifying the competition, division and mystification in the class so that the class fails to organise massive, united struggles on a class terrain in a more combative and conscious way. The world bourgeoisie, its economists, scholars, researchers, politicians, trade unionists, business and political executives, are meeting regularly to devise ways and means to achieve this objective. The Indian bourgeoisie is not lagging behind in this task. It is a life and death question to all sectors of the bourgeoisie.
The economic policies of the bourgeoisie have led to rising inflation. As per official statistics food inflation is 18% but in reality it much higher. In the face of this, the majority of the working class is finding it very difficult to make both ends meet. Sensing the danger of mass revolts and to avert this, different factions of the bourgeoisie have been posturing against price rises and carrying out ritualistic ‘struggles'. Given the continuous acceleration of the crisis, the bourgeoisie cannot continue to contain the class struggle for long. The present relative difficulty of the class contains within itself the violent storms of massive outbursts of class struggle in the coming period.
Like in all other parts of the world here also the bourgeoisie and its ‘specialists' are all working overtime to bring home to the working class the message that the crisis is temporary and part of life of the system, that it can be overcome sooner or later, that the worst impact of the crisis is over, that there is quite an encouraging growth in the GDP and exports have already been picking up, that better days are coming soon.
Another tried and tested trap of the bourgeoisie is nationalism. The bourgeoisie and its print and electronic media never tire of reminding the working class of the imperialist designs of China, the dragon, against India, its military expansion, and policy of encirclement. Almost everyday there are news stories of hostile designs and activities of the Pakistani state against the interest of India. Any terrorist activity in any part of India is declared to be the perpetration of elements aided and abetted by the Pakistani state. They are trying their best to rally the working class in its imperialist war on terror. Thus the working class is always being fed with high doses of nationalist fervour. The working class is always being told that India is going to be an important global power economically, politically and militarily and its status in the ‘international community' is being elevated more and more.
Further, the bourgeoisie is leaving no stone unturned to convince the working class that the thought of socialism, communism, and proletarian revolution is utopian. The working class is always being told that the democratic alternative is best alternative and the best method for resolving all problems.
Parties of the extreme left of capital are also trying their best to involve the working class in their ‘new democratic revolution' as the only alternative to the increasing problems of life and livelihood.
But the bourgeoisie has realised that in spite of all their well concerted efforts of mystification, the process of questioning capitalism and coming to consciousness is unstoppable. To derail this process of coming to consciousness and search for a communist alternative, factions of the bourgeoisie distort the essence of marxism while proclaiming that Marx was a great thinker and telling us that marxism is still relevant even today. The ruling class will do all it can to block workers coming to the realisation that only the overthrow of capitalism and the construction of a new society can solve the problems posed by this decomposing system.
CI 3/2/10''

Okay, so that is what you mean by support? Only reporting those struggles and not participating in them ? That in no way shows that ICC supports workers struggles in practice. Any other bourgeois organization could also "support" those movements verbally. That proves nothing. By the way, consult some Indian newspapers to find out who are thought to be behind the more militant struggles, particularly those of workers in jute-mills or tea plantations.

[Ismail]

And here's ya boy Stalin being a REVISIONISTActually Stalin agreed with Lenin. See: http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1938/01/18.htm

The final victory of socialism requires the victory of the proletariat on a pretty much worldwide scale.

Furthermore, other bit from the Howard interview:
"You see, we Marxists believe that a revolution will also take place in other countries. But it will take place only when the revolutionaries in those countries think it possible, or necessary. The export of revolution is nonsense. Every country will make its own revolution if it wants to, and if it does not want to, there will be no revolution. For example, our country wanted to make a revolution and made it, and now we are building a new, classless society.

But to assert that we want to make a revolution in other countries, to interfere in their lives, means saying what is untrue, and what we have never advocated."
(Interview Between J. Stalin and Roy Howard. March 1, 1936. Works, Vol. 14. Red Star Press Ltd., London, 1978.)

[red cat]

Actually Stalin agreed with Lenin. See: http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1938/01/18.htm

The final victory of socialism requires the victory of the proletariat on a pretty much worldwide scale.

Furthermore, other bit from the Howard interview:
"You see, we Marxists believe that a revolution will also take place in other countries. But it will take place only when the revolutionaries in those countries think it possible, or necessary. The export of revolution is nonsense. Every country will make its own revolution if it wants to, and if it does not want to, there will be no revolution. For example, our country wanted to make a revolution and made it, and now we are building a new, classless society.

But to assert that we want to make a revolution in other countries, to interfere in their lives, means saying what is untrue, and what we have never advocated."
(Interview Between J. Stalin and Roy Howard. March 1, 1936. Works, Vol. 14. Red Star Press Ltd., London, 1978.)

So all what Stalin was opposing was the "exporting" of the Soviet revolution to other countries. And that was changed to an apparent opposition to world revolution by carefully quoting him out of context by our left-com friend here. :lol:

[Savage]

But the question I have been asking for a long time now is whether such factory owners are members of the ICC or not ? Is this too difficult to understand ?Jesus this is a stupid question, the answer is no.


Don't be that confident about Lenin's line, or I'll have to remind you what exactly he thought of left-coms.I know what he thought of the communist left, he did not take kindly to the rejection on unionism, parliamentarianism, electoralism etc, but his positions are not anti-thetical to the communist left, but you obviously don't realize that there were plenty of left coms in the Bolsheviks.


Yep.lol, the Maoists don't advocate any of the aforementioned you cretin, none such class organs existed in Russia post 1919 (and shortly in Hungary 40 years later) and they never existed in china.

As for everything else you said, it was but a crude reiteration of everything that I already replied to in the last post, the point of a discussion is not to repeat yourself. If you have any actual arguments, that is, besides the ones that you have exhausted, then contact me, but otherwise, you have nothing to offer whatever is left of this discussion.

EDIT: and as for Stalin supporting internationalism, you haven't presented anything that argues that he agreed with Lenin's position that socialism is impossible in one country, perhaps an understanding of Lenin's position on the soviet economy during the early 20's would be advised.

[Ismail]

EDIT: and as for Stalin supporting internationalism, you haven't presented anything that argues that he agreed with Lenin's position that socialism is impossible in one country, perhaps an understanding of Lenin's position on the soviet economy during the early 20's would be advised."As a matter of fact, the political power of the Soviet over all large-scale means of production, the power in the state in the hands of the proletariat, the alliance of this proletariat with the many millions of small and very small peasants, the assured leadership of the peasantry by the proletariat, etc, … is not this all that is necessary in order... to build a complete socialist society? This is not yet the building of socialist society but it is all that is necessary and sufficient for this building." (Lenin, "On Cooperation," 1923.)

"But the overthrow of the power of the bourgeoisie and establishment of the power of the proletariat in one country does not yet mean that the complete victory of socialism has been ensured. After consolidating its power and leading the peasantry in its wake the proletariat of the victorious country can and must build a socialist society. But does this mean that it will thereby achieve the complete and final victory of socialism, i.e., does it mean that with the forces of only one country it can finally consolidate socialism and fully guarantee that country against intervention and, consequently, also against restoration? No, it does not. For this the victory of the revolution in at least several countries is needed. Therefore, the development and support of revolution in other countries is an essential task of the victorious revolution. Therefore, the revolution which has been victorious in one country must regard itself not as a self-sufficient entity, but as an aid, as a means for hastening the victory of the proletariat in other countries. Lenin expressed this thought succinctly when he said that the task of the victorious revolution is to do "the utmost possible in one country for the development, support and awakening of the revolution in all countries. (Stalin, Vol. XXIII: The Foundations of Leninism, p. 385)"

The final victory of socialism was not possible when socialism was confined to one country. Lenin and Stalin agreed on this.

[red cat]

Jesus this is a stupid question, the answer is no.

Okay.


I know what he thought of the communist left, he did not take kindly to the rejection on unionism, parliamentarianism, electoralism etc, but his positions are not anti-thetical to the communist left, but you obviously don't realize that there were plenty of left coms in the Bolsheviks.
There is a little bit of difference between not taking a tendency kindly and opposing it to the extent of calling it an infantile disorder.



lol, the Maoists don't advocate any of the aforementioned you cretin, none such class organs existed in Russia post 1919 (and shortly in Hungary 40 years later) and they never existed in china.Listen you ignorant idiot, I don't need to learn from you what Maoists advocate and what they don't. Similar class organs have already been created in India and are fighting the state.


As for everything else you said, it was but a crude reiteration of everything that I already replied to in the last post, the point of a discussion is not to repeat yourself. If you have any actual arguments, that is, besides the ones that you have exhausted, then contact me, but otherwise, you have nothing to offer whatever is left of this discussion.What a pathetic attempt to escape the main issues. I also see that you have taken care to ignore further discussion of your treacherous accusations of communist revolutionaries engaging in rape that I have proved to be false. Your debating style is a classical revisionist one; you ignore the main questions, try to deform Marxism, stack one lie upon another, in short you do everything that a reactionary does to attack revolutionary movements. At this point you should realize that there are some of us here who can expose your lies very well.

[Savage]

There is a little bit of difference between not taking a tendency kindly and opposing it to the extent of calling it an infantile disorder.As I said before, Lenin had left communist friends in the Bolsheviks, Old Bolsheviks in fact, you have proven that you don't understand polemics, but really, this is something to be discussed somewhere else.


Listen you ignorant idiot, I don't need to learn from you what Maoists advocate and what they don't. Similar class organs have already been created in India and are fighting the state.You advocate the nationalization of industry, not the international power of the workers' councils. These class organs don't exist anywhere in India and are not things that can be used to 'fight the state'.


What a pathetic attempt to escape the main issues. I also see that you have taken care to ignore further discussion of your treacherous accusations of communist revolutionaries engaging in rape that I have proved to be false. Your debating style is a classical revisionist one; you ignore the main questions, try to deform Marxism, stack one lie upon another, in short you do everything that a reactionary does to attack revolutionary movements. At this point you should realize that there are some of us here who can expose your lies very well.I honestly laughed when I read this, you've gotten very cute towards the end of this thread. You never disproved anything about the rape, your 'class war' consists of raping and murdering 16 year old girls, 6 month year old kids, pregnant women and the elderly, you have done nothing to disprove this, it is a fact. As for 'deforming Marxism', It is obvious that you have never read anything of Marx, and If you have, then what you've said so far has been an insult to your analytical skills. As for the hilarious 'revisionist' pejorative, perhaps you are unaware of Lenin's revisionism? As for the revisionism of Mao, the guy is already a joke, there's no need to make fun of him.


Totally unlike Marx, Lenin makes a distinction between socialism and communism equating them, respectively with the first and the second phase of communism (following Marx, Lenin could have as well distinguished between the first and the second phase of socialism). Corresponding to this distinction Lenin distinguishes between two transitions - the first from capitalism to socialism, the second from socialism to communism. Naturally, this distinction, too, nowhere appears in Marx. The distinctions in question, apparently merely terminological and innocent looking, had far reaching consequences, which were far from innocent. These became convenient instruments for legitimising and justifying the ideology and every act of the Party-State from 1917 onwards in the name of (building) socialism, which was stressed as the need for the immediate future, and thus shelving all the vital aspects of Marx's immense emancipatory project of the post capitalist society off to the Greek calends of the never-never land of communism, thereby metamorphosing Marx's project of socialism (communism) into an unalloyed utopia. Lenin conceives socialism basically in terms of ownership form of the means of production rather than in terms of the (social) relations of production. And he posits 'social ownership' of the means of production (in socialism) against capitalism's private ownership uniquely in the sense of "private ownership of separate individuals"�.16 Here again Lenin is several steps backward compared to Marx. For Marx juridical relations (forms) have no independent existence, they simply arise from the economic, that is, production relations. In other words it is the production (economic) relations which determine the ownership relations and their specific forms, not inversely. Secondly, Marx had already shown on the basis of his close observation of capitalism's development how its forms of ownership changed in response to the needs of capital accumulation. The ownership form of which Lenin speaks was indeed the initial form in capitalism, directly taken over from the Roman law. However, in the course of capital's development the requirements of capital's accumulation dictated a change in the ownership form from individual to collective capitalist ownership, which signified "abolition of private ownership within the capitalist mode of production itself"�, as Marx clearly noted. The relevant texts of Marx were already available quite some time before Lenin wrote his text from which our citation comes. Lenin's concept of private ownership was of course the dominant concept in the Second International "Marxism"� taken over from bourgeois jurisprudence. Similarly, social ownership in Lenin (for socialism) does not mean society's ownership that is, direct appropriation by society itself. It is rather state ownership where the state is by supposition a working class state.17 This identification of state ownership with ownership by the whole society is, again, absent from Marx's texts. Indeed, far from social ownership being identical with (working class) state ownership, socialism - even in its Leninist identification with Marx's lower phase of communism - excludes not only individual private ownership of the means of production but also (working class) state ownership, inasmuch as the first phase of the Association arrives on the historical scene only at the end of the transformation period coinciding with the end of the proletariat and its political rule ("state"� if you like). The mode of appropriation becomes for the first time directly social. This is the real social ownership that Marx envisages.
As regards exchange relations in socialism, Lenin's position is not without ambiguities. In some writings he speaks of "suppression"� of commodity production with the end of capitalism,18 while in other writings he speaks of "socialist exchange of products"� and denies the commodity character of state factory products "exchanged"� against peasants' products.19 We know from Marx that in the very first phase of the Association (Lenin's "socialism"�), "producers do not exchange their products"�. We also know that exchange of products is replaced in the new society by the "free exchange"� of "activities"�.
The scope of distribution in the new society is very narrow in Lenin. He is far and away from the range of Marx's preoccupation in this regard. He is not concerned with the allocation of productive resources among different branches of activity nor with the corresponding problem of the best way to allocate society's total labour time or with the division of this time between necessary (labour) time and free time for the associated producers with far reaching emancipatory consequences. Lenin is almost exclusively concerned with the distribution of the means of consumption among the society's individuals. Here he follows literally Marx's "Marginal Notes"� (1875) discussed above. At the same time Lenin takes liberty with Marx's text. Referring to what Marx calls (remaining) "bourgeois right"� in the lower phase of the Association (Lenin's "socialism"�), Lenin envisages equality of "labour and wage"� for the citizens, now transformed into "hired employees of the state"� (sluzhashchikh po naimu) where, further, the enforcement of "bourgeois right"� would, according to him, necessitate the presence of the "bourgeois"� state.20 This is indeed a strange reading of Marx's text with serious implications. First, the transformation of the producing citizens into hired employees of the state receiving wage as remuneration would simply mean that the citizens instead of being wage labourers of private enterprises, are now wage labourers of the state (calling the state a workers' state does not change the character of citizens' labour as wage labour). In the same text that Lenin (mis-) reads, Marx denounces the wage system as a "system of slavery"�. In fact the distribution of the means of consumption through labour tokens has nothing to do with their distribution through wage remuneration. As regards hired labour, let us recall that in his famous Inaugural Address to the International, Marx opposes "hired labour"� to "associated labour"�. In fact Marx had already called the "state...employing productive wage labour"� "capitalist"�.
Continuing with the problem of distribution of the means of consumption in socialism (Marx's lower phase of the Association) Lenin refers to the not yet superseded "bourgeois right"� (Marx) in this connection and insists on the need of the existence of "bourgeois state"� to enforce this right. This latter is Lenin's own gloss and is nowhere to be found in Marx's extant texts. In fact the antagonistic relation between state and freedom (essence of the "union of free individuals"�) was a constant in Marx at least beginning with his polemic with Ruge right up to his last theoretical writing (also a polemic). But why should in any case the enforcement of "bourgeois right"� require a state, and that, too, a "bourgeois state"� in a society which arises only after the last form of political power held by the proletariat has evaporated along with the proletariat itself after a long revolutionary transformation period! Even with the "bourgeois right"� remaining Marx envisages society itself, not any special political apparatus, undertaking the task of distributing the means of consumption in the very first phase of the Association. Even when Marx speculates on what kind of transformation will the state form (Staatswesen) undergo in communism, he immediately adds the meaning of this speculation: which social functions will be left there that are analogous to the present day state functions. First note that this speculation about the future of state functions applies to communism as such, not simply to its first phase, which is Lenin's concern in the context of "bourgeois state"� enforcing the "bourgeois right"�.
This speculation about the analogy of present day state functions for communism no more signifies the existence of state in communism (at any stage) than the parallelism with equality of commodity exchange for distribution in the lower stage of communism signifies the existence of commodity production in the first stage of the Association (as many readers of Marx think). Indeed, Lenin's logic is baffling. Inasmuch as the lower phase is inaugurated only after the transformation period when after it has destroyed the bourgeois state the proletariat disappears along with its own "state"�, the existence of a bourgeois state in this phase would signify, in the absence of the bourgeoisie (Lenin's assumption)), that the (non proletarian) workers would themselves recreate the bourgeois state after having liquidated their own.
"If we knew in advance that we are not equal to the task [of building socialism in Russia by itself], then why the devil did we have to make the October revolution? If we have managed for eight years, why should we not manage in the ninth, tenth or fortieth year?"-StalinThere is a clear difference between advocating a socialism in one country for as long 36 years and considering such a thing to be impossible.

[mosfeld]

I honestly laughed when I read this, you've gotten very cute towards the end of this thread. You never disproved anything about the rape, your 'class war' consists of raping and murdering 16 year old girls, 6 month year old kids, pregnant women and the elderly, you have done nothing to disprove this, it is a fact. As for 'deforming Marxism', It is obvious that you have never read anything of Marx, and If you have, then what you've said so far has been an insult to your analytical skills. As for the hilarious 'revisionist' pejorative, perhaps you are unaware of Lenin's revisionism? As for the revisionism

Maybe because he doesn't need to apologize for the murderous crimes of the CPI(Marxist), or, as they're often known by their initials "CPM" -- remember? You posted a bunch of hideous crimes that the CPM has done in a previous post (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2080658&postcount=38), attributing them to the Naxalites, when in fact the struggle in, for example, Lalgarh was directed at the CPM where they burned their headquarters, etc.

http://www.livemint.com/images/A2201A3D-A531-4396-8208-DA8764483A9DArtVPF.gif

Could you please do yourself a favor and stop embarrassing yourself and ruining my thread? You don't even know anything about India -- why do you think you have any right to pretend as if you do? Also, this thread was originally about PCP books, have you forgotten that too?

Left communist degenerates, please go away.

[Savage]

Maybe because he doesn't need to apologize for the murderous crimes of the CPI(Marxist), or, as they're often known by their initials "CPM" -- remember? You posted a bunch of hideous crimes that the CPM has done in a previous post (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2080658&postcount=38), attributing them to the Naxalites, when in fact the struggle in, for example, Lalgarh was directed at the CPM where they burned their headquarters, etc.
The 'discussion' between me and red cat was predominately about Maoists in general, he apologized for the murderous crimes of the shining path who raped and killed young children and pregnant women, but no, these people were Imperialists weren't they?


Could you please do yourself a favor and stop embarrassing yourself and ruining my thread? You don't even know anything about India -- why do you think you have any right to pretend as if you do? Also, this thread was originally about PCP books, have you forgotten that too?

Left communist degenerates, please go away.lol, you can go back to talking about your awful 'literature' whenever you want, Red Cat's comedy routine is getting old, at first some idiot endlessly repeating himself is funny, but after this much time it gets unbearable. Why don't you just close this thread and make a new one in the Maoist group?

[mosfeld]

The 'discussion' between me and red cat was predominately about Maoists in general

I've looked through this conversation and you've made absolutely no mention of the PCP. The first thing you wrote was "If I desterted a group like the Naxalites", as if this thread is some fantasy diary for you to blabber on like a lunatic, and from there on you've talked about absolutely nothing but the Naxalites, your irrelevant sect which cheerleads for genocide and irrelevant bullshit which has nothing to do with this thread.


lol, you can go back to talking about your awful 'literature' whenever you want

If you had actually read the first post of this thread, and not marched in like the troll you are, you'd know that this thread was originally criticizing the mainstream literature on the PCP.


he apologized for the murderous crimes of the shining path who raped and killed young children and pregnant women, but no, these people were Imperialists weren't they?

No, actually, nowhere did he "apologize" for anything because these are falsifications made up by you -- you've never actually talked about the PCP in this conversation. In fact, the only place where you mentioned people raping and murdering young children and pregnant women was when you mentioned the CPM and then, since you don't know anything about India or the conflict there, claimed that these were committed by the Naxals, despite the fact that the CPM and the CPI(Maoist), the Naxalites, are two entirely different organization, are sworn enemies and have been fighting each other, particularly in West Bengal, for ages now. If you don't know something as elementary as this, then you are not in any position to talk about the Indian conflict. Instead, you should be the one asking questions and not making bullshit statements. If you want to actually learn about the Naxals, then ask nicely, but if you have pre-determined set of ideas (despite the fact that you actually don't know anything about the Naxals!), I'm not going to talk to you. For now, please go away.

[Savage]

I've looked through this conversation and you've made absolutely no mention of the PCP. The first thing you wrote was "If I desterted a group like the Naxalites", as if this thread is some fantasy diary for you to blabber on like a lunatic, and from there on you've talked about absolutely nothing but the Naxalites, your irrelevant sect which cheerleads for genocide and irrelevant bullshit which has nothing to do with this thread.
Ah, so you to cannot understand simple polemics? This point is dead and buried, but just to clarify, the point was that Naxalites are thugs when it comes to deserters.



If you had actually read the first post of this thread, and not marched in like the troll you are, you'd know that this thread was originally criticizing the mainstream literature on the PCP.You asked for 'good' literature on the PCP you idiot, I usually stay away from any sort of Maoist poster, but when you start to produce the bullshit that you did in this thread, I just can't resist. If you wish to close this thread and start it again in learning, I won't comment, as long as you keep it as a discussion of literature, as was intended.


No, actually, nowhere did he "apologize" for anything because these are falsifications made up by you -- you've never actually talked about the PCP in this conversation. In fact, the only place where you mentioned people raping and murdering young children and pregnant women was when you mentioned the CPM and then, since you don't know anything about India or the conflict there, claimed that these were committed by the Naxals, despite the fact that the CPM and the CPI(Maoist), the Naxalites, are two entirely different organization, are sworn enemies and have been fighting each other, particularly in West Bengal, for ages now. If you don't know something as elementary as this, then you are not in any position to talk about the Indian conflict. Instead, you should be the one asking questions and not making bullshit statements. If you want to actually learn about the Naxals, then ask nicely, but if you have pre-determined set of ideas (despite the fact that you actually don't know anything about the Naxals!), I'm not going to talk to you. For now, please go away.He didn't even attempt to 'disprove' the murderous rape of the Shining Path, I said: ''A militia defending imperialism? You mean little kids? As young as 6 months old? You're disguisting.''
he replied:''Do you really not know what human shields are or are you just pretending to be this ignorant ?''
Disguising apologia for the rape and murder of children, pregnant women and the elderly. The Shining Path even admits to these crimes.
And now you force me to repeat myself, I was criticizing the actions of Maoist factions in general, I don't give a shit if it was the Naxals or the Naxalites, they're both Maoist reactionary groups and anyone supporting them should be banned from this forum.

[mosfeld]

I asked for good literature which wasn't senderologist in nature and also, while at it, criticized the same senderology by claiming that it was one "(...) one big fat intellectually dishonest anti-communist joke" Also, for your information, I didn't start derailing this thread it was the other left communist degenerate who participated in this thread, maldoror, who decided started talking about how his particular sect smokes weed and how boring Maoists are.

I'll reply to all of your bullshit at length soon. I get you, though -- you're some 13 year old radical who thinks he knows it all because he read a few Wikipedia articles. Pay attention to my "Peru Notes, News and Analysis (http://www.revleft.com/vb/peru-notes-news-t153085/index.html)" thread where you'll get a proper reply soon. :)

[red cat]

lol, you implied that the topic of this terrible thread wasn't anything to do with discussing literature you fool. As for Maldoror, why didn't you just ignore the comment if he was a troll? I know that irl you Maoists just like to slaughter anyone that disagrees with you, you don't seem to like it when anyone can refute your 'theory' on the internet. Oh and please do message me when your apologia for that murdering rapist Gonzalo and his bourgeois cohort comes out, in the mean time, I'm sure there's plenty of peasants out there that your brave Maoist comrades will rape at will.

You either prove your accusations of rape against the PCP and the naxalites, or withdraw them. You have been flaming and trolling here for quite some time now. This is not allowed here, specially in the learning forum.

[red cat]

Ah, more idiocy, so the Shining Path is lying when they admit to raping and murdering pregnant women and children? Perhaps they are bourgeois agents!...Oh wait, yeah they are. Of everything I have said to you, you have adequately responded to almost nil, whilst carrying on with this macho rhetoric, accusing me of being a coward...on a forum...:laugh:

Where has the PCP admitted specifically to the accusation of raping ? And what about the naxalites ?

EDIT : At least you are not someone who should whine about others not responding adequately. So far all your posts have confirmed that you know nothing of what you talk about and your knowledge of a topic is mostly confined to a quick google-search with some keywords. Hence you provide examples that have nothing to do with your claims.

[Savage]

Where has the PCP admitted specifically to the accusation of raping ? And what about the naxalites ?

EDIT : At least you are not someone who should whine about others not responding adequately. So far all your posts have confirmed that you know nothing of what you talk about and your knowledge of a topic is mostly confined to a quick google-search with some keywords. Hence you provide examples that have nothing to do with your claims.

The Shining Path in response to allegations of murder,

“We start by not ascribing to either Universal Declaration of Human Rights or the Costa Rica [Convention on Human Rights], but we have used their legal devices to unmask and denounce the old Peruvian state … For us, human rights are contradictory to the rights of the people, because we base rights in man as a social product, not man as an abstract with innate rights. “Human rights” do not exist except for the bourgeois man, a position that was at the forefront of feudalism, like liberty, equality, and fraternity were advanced for the bourgeoisie of the past. But today, since the appearance of the proletariat as an organized class in the Communist Party, with the experience of triumphant revolutions, with the construction of socialism, new democracy and the dictatorship of the proletariat, it has been proven that human rights serve the oppressor class and the exploiters who run the imperialist and landowner-bureaucratic states. Bourgeois states in general … Our position is very clear. We reject and condemn human rights because they are bourgeois, reactionary, counterrevolutionary rights, and are today a weapon of revisionists and imperialists, principally Yankee imperialists.” In response to the lucanamarca massacre in which women were raped and killed a long with young children and the elderly-


n the face of reactionary military actions... we responded with a devastating action: Lucanamarca. Neither they nor we have forgotten it, to be sure, because they got an answer that they didn't imagine possible. More than 80 were annihilated, that is the truth. And we say openly that there were excesses, as was analyzed in 1983. But everything in life has two aspects. Our task was to deal a devastating blow in order to put them in check, to make them understand that it was not going to be so easy. On some occasions, like that one, it was the Central Leadership itself that planned the action and gave instructions. That's how it was. In that case, the principal thing is that we dealt them a devastating blow, and we checked them and they understood that they were dealing with a different kind of people's fighters, that we weren't the same as those they had fought before. This is what they understood. The excesses are the negative aspect... If we were to give the masses a lot of restrictions, requirements and prohibitions, it would mean that deep down we didn't want the waters to overflow. And what we needed was for the waters to overflow, to let the flood rage, because we know that when a river floods its banks it causes devastation, but then it returns to its riverbed.... [T]he main point was to make them understand that we were a hard nut to crack, and that we were ready for anything, anything. – Abimael Guzmán[ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucanamarca_massacre#cite_note-1) http://books.google.com.au/books?id=Ca7_HH2rWJEC&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=the+shining+path+responsible+for+rape&source=bl&ots=sWojCYyz8r&sig=hfJCjI56FQ3o3SSi8RdF64tO8jE&hl=en&ei=A92rTaXQLoTmrAfPpImnCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CDYQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=the%20shining%20path%20responsible%20for%20rape&f=false

^^ That's a book which details the abuse of women's rights in Peru, go to pg 44, it details the rape by the Shining Path.

If you ever wanna try and refute any of my the other allegations (on Imperialism, commodity production, socialism etc) that I made, just drop me a line.

[red cat]

The Shining Path in response to allegations of murder,
In response to the lucanamarca massacre in which women were raped and killed a long with young children and the elderly-

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=Ca7_HH2rWJEC&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=the+shining+path+responsible+for+rape&source=bl&ots=sWojCYyz8r&sig=hfJCjI56FQ3o3SSi8RdF64tO8jE&hl=en&ei=A92rTaXQLoTmrAfPpImnCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CDYQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=the%20shining%20path%20responsible%20for%20rape&f=false

^^ That's a book which details the abuse of women's rights in Peru, go to pg 44, it details the rape by the Shining Path.

If you ever wanna try and refute any of my the other allegations (on Imperialism, commodity production, socialism etc) that I made, just drop me a line.

Topics like socialism or commodity production will be too difficult for you at this stage, given that you don't know what constitutes a valid example of a claim. You need to show where the PCP was accused of rape in the Lucanamarco action. Then you need to show where the PCP admits specifically to raping women in that action. This will be difficult for you, because even your favourite and most trusted source wikipedia does not contain a word about any such rape by the PCP. Once you have given these evidences, you need to show how naxalites were involved in the example you gave earlier. Do these first. Debating complex topics with you is not possible until you are familiar with the rules of debating in the first place.

[Savage]

Here's some more info on the Naxal rape crimes, I have already sourced the rape crimes of the Shining Path, I have sourced the Naxals once. I'm sure that you will reply with some pathetic line about these sources being bourgeois, I would advocate you not doing so. And as for the book 'Untold Terror', yes it does mention mostly the rape of the Peruvian government, but to deny the many accounts of rape attributed to the Shining Path is disgusting. You'll see that in this source about the Naxals, the Maoists admit to the crimes of rape as well.


BY DILLIRAM KHATIWADA

JAGATPUR (SAPTARI), Aug 22 - A group of Maoists raped over two-dozen women of a dalit settlement in Jagatpur-4 at gunpoint last week and threatened to "completely destroy" the hamlet in case they disclosed the crime. The incident came to light only on Monday.
About two dozen Maoists, who had come here five days ago, raped females of ages between 22 and 35 years of age, some of whom are mothers of three to four children. Nine victims recounted the harrowing experience in front of a group of human rights activists and journalists who reached the village on Monday.

"They (Maoists) told us to prepare food in the beginning," said Shyam Kumari (name changed), adding, "After they had eaten, they forcibly carried us inside the houses and perpetrated the heinous act in front of other family members." She was raped in front of her father and mother-in-law.

The youth of the village had left the area long time back due to increasing Maoist activities and only children, women and the elderly remain in the village now. There are about 25 dalit families in the village, in the north of the Koshi river bank. Locals are terrified after the incident. "If they know that we told you about the incident, they will come and kill us," said one of the victims, sobbing.

After word spread about the heinous act, the Maoist leadership of the area came to the victims and "apologized". "They prostrated themselves at the victims' feet begging forgiveness and also pledged to take action against those involved," said 65-year-old Gopali Khang, father-in-law of a victim.

Babaji Das, a local, said Maoists had carried out mass rapes on previous occasions also, but threats of Maoist reprisal had sealed their lips.

"Although similar incidents have been taking place since long here, the locals have finally opened their mouths as it has crossed all limits now," said Shankar Giri, a local social worker. The terrorized locals have also asked human rights organizations and journalists to help ensure security for them.

Teen girl, who alleges rape by Maoist, shot at
IANS, Mar 5, 2010, 12.04pm IST



RANCHI: A teenage girl was shot by Maoist rebels in Jharkhand's Latehar district for slapping rape charges on a Maoist leader, police said Friday. The victim is struggling for life in a hospital here.

Maoist guerrillas shot three bullets into 17-year-old Anju Kumari on Thursday. She was injured critically and has been admitted to the Intensive Care Unit (ICU) of the Rajendra Institute of Medical Science (RIMS).

"Anju sustained three bullets in her stomach. Her condition is critical," a doctor said.

Anju was shot when she was riding her bicycle in an area close to Latehar railway station. She was stopped by three motorcycle-borne Maoist rebels including the Maoist commander Pappu Lohra, who allegedly pumped three bullets into Anju's stomach and then fled, police said.

According to police, Anju was shot because she was bold enough to lodge a first information report (FIR) against Lohra for abducting and raping her.

"Anju was shot because she dared to raise a voice against Maoists. She had lodged an FIR against Pappu Lohra. Anju had accused Pappu of raping her for two days in a jungle after abducting her," a police official told IANS.


Hailing from the naxal-affected Kaimur range of east UP, which includes Robertsganj, Mirzapur, Sonbhadra and Chandauli, many young women had joined the banned outfits between 2000-2005. Most of them were driven by abject poverty and some out of anger against exploitation and oppression by dominant Yadav community in the area, police and forest officials. But naxals were no better. They exploited women members and abandoned them when they became pregnant. Some of the women surrendered before the police and few were arrested. All these women are now living in a pathetic condition. Their families have refused to take them back. Government agencies are of no help. Social organisations are not helping because of the fear of being caught in police-naxal crossfire.

Last month, these women petitioned to chief minister Mayawati seeking her intervention for their rehabilitation. On their behalf, Shanta Bhattacharya, a social activists associated with Kaimur Kshetra Mahila Mazdoor Kisan Sangharsh Samiti, wrote to the chief minister and the National Commission for Women. The TOI also highlighted their cause in the news report `Abused Naxal women approach CM for help' published on October 13.

[Franz Fanonipants]

well what we do is slam malt liquor and smoke hella weed.

lol leftcoms are all basically college kids who think that they're unique in doing this.

that said both tendencies are crippled in their ability to effectively communicate with working people because...well...shit...look at you.

[SacRedMan]

What has "hipster", "left" or "nihilist" communism ever done?

Lol I'm really confused. What kind of people are there here? Socialists? Communists? :confused:

[red cat]

that said both tendencies are crippled in their ability to effectively communicate with working people because...well...shit...look at you.

:lol:

[The Douche]

Left communism, trolling other revolutionaries since 1914.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Left communism, trolling other revolutionaries since 1914.

fuck that.

left communism isn't even funny, it's just boring.

[The Douche]

Wait, you refrence Fanon in your username but you are a christian?

Who's a troll now?:confused:

[Franz Fanonipants]

Wait, you refrence Fanon in your username but you are a christian?

Who's a troll now?:confused:

gtfo

[DaringMehring]

Lenin said that ultra-leftism was a kind of penalty for opportunism... perhaps this thread is a small contribution to illustrating what he was talking about.

[PhoenixAsh]

Lol I'm really confused. What kind of people are there here? Socialists? Communists? :confused:

this my dear friend...is a tendency war :-)

[PhoenixAsh]

Left communism, trolling other revolutionaries since 1914.

...but...to be fair...thats waaaaay better than killing them.

[The Douche]

...but...to be fair...thats waaaaay better than killing them.

Boom, roasted!:cool:

[Franz Fanonipants]

...but...to be fair...thats waaaaay better than killing them.

/disagree

that is to say i would rather be shot than listen to some kid go on about internationalism another time. or w/e these morons go off about regularly.

[ZeroNowhere]

Also remember the time they [...] claimed that a very important ex-Maoist Indian leader was in their ranks but could not name him ?Yeah. You looked pretty silly there, and not much better now.

[red cat]

Meanwhile in India ...

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_JL3k-6eqVHk/TAT7s8WhI0I/AAAAAAAABcc/a-NUEdle_8I/MTT%20-%20India%20-%20Failed%20in%20coping%20with%20the%20Maoist%20in surgency,%20new%20operations%20of%20the%20Indian%2 0security%20forces%20have%20exposed%20the%20helple ssness%20of%20India.jpg

[red cat]

Yeah. You looked pretty silly there, and not much better now.

:lol:

[The Red Next Door]

What is left communism and I don't understand the term and i did read some rosa but forget it. isn't communism left. So, why the term LEFT communism?

Is it some left hipster cokehead fad ?

[red cat]

What is left communism and I don't understand the term and i did read some rosa but forget it. isn't communism left. So, why the term LEFT communism?

Is it some left hipster cokehead fad ?

They left communism :D

[Thirsty Crow]

What is left communism and I don't understand the term and i did read some rosa but forget it. isn't communism left. So, why the term LEFT communism?

Is it some left hipster cokehead fad ?
I see you're well read on the history of the workers' movement and Communist organizations. I applaud your lack of interest (since critical thought necessitates time and effort).

[Gorilla]

What is left communism and I don't understand the term and i did read some rosa but forget it. isn't communism left. So, why the term LEFT communism?

Inside communism, left vs. right generally refers to how willing you are to work with less-revolutionary groups, do trade union work, participate in elections etc.

So the CPUSA, which is all hugged up with the Democratic party and the AFL-CIO leadership, is far rightist.

Left-coms won't work with pretty much anyone else, see trade unions as reactionary and are against elections on principle, so they're left.


Is it some left hipster cokehead fad ?

A lot of people think that.

[The Red Next Door]

I see you're well read on the history of the workers' movement and Communist organizations. I applaud your lack of interest (since critical thought necessitates time and effort).

I don't have the luxury of doing that, since, I am in a major that involves taking time to draw and design stuff, in order to make the grade. It called majoring in Illustration and COMMERCIAL ART. Commercial= drawing stuff for the cappies and using your time that could be use learning to design stuff for others.)

[The Red Next Door]

Inside communism, left vs. right generally refers to how willing you are to work with less-revolutionary groups, do trade union work, participate in elections etc.

So the CPUSA, which is all hugged up with the Democratic party and the AFL-CIO leadership, is the extreme right.

Left-coms won't work with pretty much anyone else, see trade unions as reactionary and are against elections on principle, so they're left.



A lot of people think that.

But the thing is they are not around, I don't see them anywhere, i mean it not that their tendency or tendency of the ultra left, I have a problem with but they are lazy, have nothing to offer,and seem to only care about putting sugar booger up their noses.

[The Douche]

I see you're well read on the history of the workers' movement and Communist organizations. I applaud your lack of interest (since critical thought necessitates time and effort).

Seriously, this is kind of dickish.

Not everybody has that much time to spend investigating these ideas.

[Thirsty Crow]

Seriously, this is kind of dickish.

Not everybody has that much time to spend investigating these ideas.
Oh c'mon. How much time is necessary to access wikipedia and read the article which would make clear the most basic contours of the tendency (and that would mean that the question "why 'Left Communist'?" would be answered upon finishing the article)?

But yeah, I might have come off as dickish. But basic information is just lying around the net and it doesn't take much time to take a look.

[black magick hustla]

Meanwhile in India ...

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_JL3k-6eqVHk/TAT7s8WhI0I/AAAAAAAABcc/a-NUEdle_8I/MTT%20-%20India%20-%20Failed%20in%20coping%20with%20the%20Maoist%20in surgency,%20new%20operations%20of%20the%20Indian%2 0security%20forces%20have%20exposed%20the%20helple ssness%20of%20India.jpg
meanwhile the working class
http://www.chicagoclout.com/weblog/archives/Drinking%20on%20the%20Job%20Chicago%20City%20Worke r.jpg

[The Red Next Door]

Oh c'mon. How much time is necessary to access wikipedia and read the article which would make clear the most basic contours of the tendency (and that would mean that the question "why 'Left Communist'?" would be answered upon finishing the article)?

But yeah, I might have come off as dickish. But basic information is just lying around the net and it doesn't take much time to take a look.

I have political work to do, the more time i spend on the computer the less time that i have to finish my school before the day of an event or dicussion group and i will end up happen to blow it off or stay up late to work on some shit.

[black magick hustla]

lol leftcoms are all basically college kids who think that they're unique in doing this.

that said both tendencies are crippled in their ability to effectively communicate with working people because...well...shit...look at you.
i bet i have more friends than you

[The Douche]

Oh c'mon. How much time is necessary to access wikipedia and read the article which would make clear the most basic contours of the tendency (and that would mean that the question "why 'Left Communist'?" would be answered upon finishing the article)?

But yeah, I might have come off as dickish. But basic information is just lying around the net and it doesn't take much time to take a look.

Oh somebody could, y'know ask on a message board filled with communists in a thread about left communism...

;)

[Devrim]

lol leftcoms are all basically college kids who think that they're unique in doing this.

You couldn't actually be further from the truth. What we really have in the ICC is a situation where the demographic is so far swung the other way that it is a problem. In the Turkish section of the ICC I believe we have one collage kid. There might be some in Mexico as well, but really I worry that we don't recruit enough college kids, and I don't think there are any others in the whole organisation.

Devrim

[black magick hustla]

You couldn't actually be further from the truth. What we really have in the ICC is a situation where the demographic is so far swung the other way that it is a problem. In the Turkish section of the ICC I believe we have one collage kid. There might be some in Mexico as well, but really I worry that we don't recruit enough college kids, and I don't think there are any others in the whole organisation.

Devrim
a lot of the american icc sympathizers are college kids i think. but i agree, from the people ive met irl, most of them are def. not college kids.

[The Douche]

Quote:
Originally Posted by red cat http://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=2085442#post2085442)
Meanwhile in India ...

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_JL3k-6eqVHk/TAT7s8WhI0I/AAAAAAAABcc/a-NUEdle_8I/MTT%20-%20India%20-%20Failed%20in%20coping%20with%20the%20Maoist%20in surgency,%20new%20operations%20of%20the%20Indian%2 0security%20forces%20have%20exposed%20the%20helple ssness%20of%20India.jpg
meanwhile the working class
http://www.chicagoclout.com/weblog/archives/Drinking%20on%20the%20Job%20Chicago%20City%20Worke r.jpg


i bet i have more friends than you

Don't get me wrong, I'm loling, but why is this thread still open, hell, why was it even started?

[Thirsty Crow]

You couldn't actually be further from the truth. What we really have in the ICC is a situation where the demographic is so far swung the other way that it is a problem. In the Turkish section of the ICC I believe we have one collage kid. There might be some in Mexico as well, but really I worry that we don't recruit enough college kids, and I don't think there are any others in the whole organisation.

Devrim

I bet you're outright lying.
In fact, you are most probably a college kid, and a hipster who smokes pot all day long. I'm positive.

[Zav]

I.e., you guys are incompetent idiots who don't do shit. While you're on the sideline doing drugs and criticising Maoists, some of the most oppressed and wretched people on this planet flock under the banner of Maoism for their liberation. It's a fairly nice comparison.

Maoists have never concealed that this event happened. Left communism has thus far never produced a revolutionary war and as such in the "tendency war" you have the "fortune" of pointing out excesses and mistakes which have occurred during PPWs without any consequences. We can't point out any excesses and mistakes that left communists have mistakes, because you have done absolutely nothing.

1. Flaming will not get you anywhere.
2. Not all of us are druggies. That's a horrible stereotype.
3. Um, what about the CNT-FAI? The Free Territories of Hungary and Ukraine? Chiapas? Argentina?
4. See point number three, and add Freetown Christiania and the hundreds of communes and federations around the world throughout history. These are some pretty glaring flaws in your post. The facts that many of our revolutions failed (thanks to authoritarian communists) and that we have been a historically smaller movement does not undermine our successes.

[The Douche]

2. Not all of us are druggies. That's a horrible stereotype.


In all fairness, certain left communists are, jokingly, encouraging this stereotype.

[ZeroNowhere]

1. Flaming will not get you anywhere.
2. Not all of us are druggies. That's a horrible stereotype.
3. Um, what about the CNT-FAI? The Free Territories of Hungary and Ukraine? Chiapas? Argentina?
4. See point number three, and add Freetown Christiania and the hundreds of communes and federations around the world throughout history. These are some pretty glaring flaws in your post. The facts that many of our revolutions failed (thanks to authoritarian communists) and that we have been a historically smaller movement does not undermine our successes.Left communism and 'libertarian communism' are not the same thing.

[black magick hustla]

In all fairness, certain left communists are, jokingly, encouraging this stereotype.
i think a lot of it is my fault. to be honest i don't even do drugs. i think i've smoked weed like once this month. also a lot of people were taking the hipster communism tendency seriously.

At the very least in revleft the left communist stereotype seems like its a bunch of college hipsters. in libcom the stereotype is longwinded old men.

[Gorilla]

maldoror talks about drugs mainly to troll Maoists, many of whom for some reason have backward anti-working class views on the subject.

For some reason there's this idea that weed is something only petty bourgeois college kids smoke whereas the proletariat is all drinking Budweiser while wearing crew cuts and McGruff t-shirts. Which is about the exact opposite of reality. In my experience workers smoke far more weed than college kids, and to the extent there is truth behind the college stoner stereotype it's far more established at lower-level state schools where working-class kids go than the ritzy private institutions.

[The Douche]

drinking Budweiser while wearing crew cuts and McGruff t-shirts

Sounds like maldoror and bcbm.

[black magick hustla]

maldoror talks about drugs mainly to troll Maoists, many of whom for some reason have backward anti-working class views on the subject.

For some reason there's this idea that weed is something only petty bourgeois college kids smoke while the proletariat is all drinking Budweiser while wearing crew cuts and McGruff t-shirts. Which is about the exact opposite of reality. In my experience workers smoke far more weed than college kids, and to the extent there is truth behind the college stoner stereotype it's far more established at lower-level state schools where working-class kids go than the ritzy private institutions.

This is true. If you go to some of the hard neighborhoods in Detroit or Chicago, everybody smokes weed. Its not even considered a drug. This is because shit like smack and crack are being pushed in your street.

[Gorilla]

This is true. If you go to some of the hard neighborhoods in Detroit or Chicago, everybody smokes weed. Its not even considered a drug. This is because shit like smack and crack are being pushed in your street.

Yeah, but I even mean the Real Working Class, like factories and hard hats, Archie Bunker and shit. There's a deep culture of blue collar stonderdom that no one even talks about.

You know what's a great stoner town? Buffalo. You know where you can't find good bud if your life depends on it? Fucking Boston.

[black magick hustla]

boston is the last bastion of tough as fuck white people in my opinion

[the last donut of the night]

What is left communism and I don't understand the term and i did read some rosa but forget it. isn't communism left. So, why the term LEFT communism?

Is it some left hipster cokehead fad ?

very poor attempt at trolling...3/10 on a good day

[Gorilla]

boston is the last bastion of tough as fuck white people in my opinion

I'm from Boston. It's kind of awesome because the public schools are good and everyone of every social class is smart. Like you come back into MA and the guy who takes your toll money for the Pike is a world-class genius compared to the entire state where you've been living. But the whole Good Will Hunting front they put up in movies hasn't been true for a couple decades; the city has become extremely white collar. I think my cousin lives in Southie now and he does corporate PR or some shit. Charlestown isn't much better.

[red cat]

meanwhile the working class
http://www.chicagoclout.com/weblog/archives/Drinking%20on%20the%20Job%20Chicago%20City%20Worke r.jpg

Meanwhile a lone drinking worker :

http://athensboy.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/india-tata-workers.jpg?w=385&h=185

[The Red Next Door]

very poor attempt at trolling...3/10 on a good day

That because, I was not. Don't let me deleted you as my fb friend.

[Wanted Man]

In all fairness, certain left communists are, jokingly, encouraging this stereotype.

Really? I think they all seem like pretty earnest people who live like monks. Except maldoror.

Also, there are some great posters who are LCs, but I think they should take a break from the forum for a while. They are converting too many dumb people. I used to associate LC with the likes of Devrim and maldoror, but now we're seeing too much Savage, Informed Candidate, etc.

[Jose Gracchus]

I'm not a left communist, but okay.

[RedSunRising]

Obviously, not even that fucking stupid gonzalo bonehead was able to lie about the Lucamarcan massacre, where PCP militants hacked children into pieces.


There is no doubt that what happened in Lucamarca was an act terrorism designed as the term suggests to terrorize. It sent out a clear message that the PCP was not an organization that was messing about and gave them an "aura" that invoked fear similar to how a teacher might do all in their power to come across as frightening when meeting a new class for the first time so avoid disciplinary problems later. In the long to medium run it worked to save many more lives than those taken that day.

Just something to consider.

[StalinFanboy]

Really? I think they all seem like pretty earnest people who live like monks. Except maldoror.

Also, there are some great posters who are LCs, but I think they should take a break from the forum for a while. They are converting too many dumb people. I used to associate LC with the likes of Devrim and maldoror, but now we're seeing too much Savage, Informed Candidate, etc.

lol I'd probably be put into this group of "dumb people." I don't actually think those posters are dumb, just not as articulate or patient as other LeftComs. At least that's how I am. Basically I just have nothing to prove to anyone online. Or offline for that matter. I'm involved in real projects in real life. I know this is true. And I don't need some internet Maoists' approval for it to be true either.

I think it's weird that internet Maoists accuse LeftComs of never "organizing revolutionary wars" or whatever, but don't take the time to understand that that is not what LeftComs are trying to do. We are not trying to represent the working class. We are not trying to manage the economy. We do not think that revolutions are started by "revolutionaries" because we are not idealists that think the world is changed by ideologies. We understand that working class moves on its own due to the inherent antagonisms within capitalist class society. And this is a historical fact. It seems like Maoists give up some pretty basic ideas of Marxian thought when they have an opportunity to be leaders or in charge.

[Obs]

4. See point number three, and add Freetown Christiania
Christiania was an embarrassing failure. It did literally nothing to strengthen the working class (may in fact have harmed it by delegitimising leftists as worthless hippies), and has now deteriorated into a free-market libertarian's dream as far as weed goes, and a pool of broken dreams as far as political activism goes. It's really not something you want to cite at all, let alone as a success.

[red cat]

It seems like Maoists give up some pretty basic ideas of Marxian thought when they have an opportunity to be leaders or in charge.

Marxian thought is not opposed to the fact that more exploited portions of the working class rebel earlier and consolidate themselves into an organization to secure political and military victories over the ruling classes.

[RedSunRising]

Another important point is that Maoists do not make a fetish out of essentially reformist economic struggles. Take the examples of the huge strike wave that was May/June 1968 in France or better still the "winter of discontent" in England, neither of which led to sustained revolutionary struggles as to see why we dont.

[StalinFanboy]

Marxian thought is not opposed to the fact that more exploited portions of the working class rebel earlier and consolidate themselves into an organization to secure political and military victories over the ruling classes.

Which is fine if that were the case.

[red cat]

Which is fine if that were the case.

That is the case.

[mosfeld]

Which is fine if that were the case. Where are the British liberated areas? Where are the U.S. People's Committees? Where is armed struggle/PPW in the developed world? The fact of the matter is that these base areas are being made in the underdeveloped countries of the world, and has been proven time and time again that the weakest link in the chain of imperialism will always be the first to rebel.

[Franz Fanonipants]

i bet i have more friends than you

yeah but i'm pretty sure i'm fucked up more often so

suicide via substance - A VALID REVOLUTIONARY CHOICE

[Franz Fanonipants]

blah blah blah

The thing is, you're the most fucking tiresome tendency around because of all your endless self-congratulatory bullshit.

It isn't even about doctrinal correctness or w/e, its about the way you fucking comport yourselves.

[Tim Finnegan]

3. Um, what about the CNT-FAI? The Free Territories of Hungary and Ukraine? Chiapas? Argentina?
Are any of those actually related to Left Communism? The CNT-FAI were anarcho-syndicalist, the "Free Territory" anarchists were platformist, the Zapatistas are a mish-mash of autonomism, Maoism and indigenous thought, and the Argentinian collectives are generally some sort of syndicalist. You can certainly argue for them as compatible with Left Communist thought, but not as Left Communist movements per se.

[Wanted Man]

I'm not a left communist, but okay.

Whoops, meant Species Being.

Don't take it personal. New converts are just generally the most fanatical and annoying, regardless of which religion it is.

[The Douche]

I think it's weird that internet Maoists accuse LeftComs of never "organizing revolutionary wars" or whatever, but don't take the time to understand that that is not what LeftComs are trying to do. We are not trying to represent the working class. We are not trying to manage the economy.

Lets be honest, the only thing you (as in left communists) are trying to do, is nothing.

[internasyonalista]

Well there are many commonalities a maoist guerrilla movements be it is in the Philippines or in Peru or in Nepal, etc.
The core of the maoist leadership in the Philippines from national to regional is compose of former college students. And the Philippine maoists don't have a second national party congress since its founding congress in 1968. The central committee leadership is replenish by way of succession through the decision of the remaining CC members since 1968.
Philippine maoists also contributed a "collateral damage" like other armed maoists in the 3rd world in waging guerrilla warfare, killing civilians "by mistake" or killing an entire village, including women and children of an anti-communist fanatical cults funded and supported by the state (tadtads, pulahans, etc). But the worst "mistake" of the Philippines maoists because of their paranoia of the defeats they suffered from the state armed forces in the 80s was the belief that there were "deep-penetration agents" of the state in the ranks of the maoists. Thus killing their own more than 1000 veteran cadres in the 80s.

[red cat]

Well there are many commonalities a maoist guerrilla movements be it is in the Philippines or in Peru or in Nepal, etc.
The core of the maoist leadership in the Philippines from national to regional is compose of former college students. And the Philippine maoists don't have a second national party congress since its founding congress in 1968. The central committee leadership is replenish by way of succession through the decision of the remaining CC members since 1968.
Philippine maoists also contributed a "collateral damage" like other armed maoists in the 3rd world in waging guerrilla warfare, killing civilians "by mistake" or killing an entire village, including women and children of an anti-communist fanatical cults funded and supported by the state (tadtads, pulahans, etc). But the worst "mistake" of the Philippines maoists because of their paranoia of the defeats they suffered from the state armed forces in the 80s was the belief that there were "deep-penetration agents" of the state in the ranks of the maoists. Thus killing their own more than 1000 veteran cadres in the 80s.

A very common feature shared among all the Maoist movements is the continuous slandering and misinformation spread about them by extreme-right to self proclaimed far-left groups. We don't have comrades from the Philippines here who may verify your claims for us, so please give examples from the Indian Maoist movement when you make any general observation on Maoists. Then we can point out exactly which of your claims are true and which are possibly just repetitions of random falsities spread by the bourgeois mass-media.

[StalinFanboy]

Whoops, meant Species Being.

Don't take it personal. New converts are just generally the most fanatical and annoying, regardless of which religion it is.

see the first part of my above post. not trying to impress you or make you my friend.


Where are the British liberated areas? Where are the U.S. People's Committees? Where is armed struggle/PPW in the developed world? The fact of the matter is that these base areas are being made in the underdeveloped countries of the world, and has been proven time and time again that the weakest link in the chain of imperialism will always be the first to rebel.

lol typical Maoist with a boner for armed struggle. The problem is that armed struggle today is never the majority of the class arming themselves, but a small, ideological minority claiming to fight in the name of the working class. This is representation at it's worst.


Lets be honest, the only thing you (as in left communists) are trying to do, is nothing.
Not quite true. but nice try. Left Communists intervene in struggles, generally by providing an analysis of why things are happening the way they are, and the way out.

but yes, we are not activists.

[mosfeld]

We had Armand Iskra (http://www.revleft.com/vb/member.php?u=16732) but he hasn't logged in for a while.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Not quite true. but nice try. Left Communists intervene in struggles, generally by providing an analysis of why things are happening the way they are, and the way out.

That's cute and everything, but EVERY SINGLE TENDENCY also does the exact same thing.

[black magick hustla]

Lets be honest, the only thing you (as in left communists) are trying to do, is nothing.
i don't think this is true? I mean in places like the US it might seem we are doing "nothing" because there is really not much to be done. (I've been part of organizing a small communist group and we are currently on the process of discussing the ICC platform). But the other day i was talking to Leo and he said he had to go because he had to check out some "health strike", but he lives in Ankara. Or down in Mexico, cdes have some pretty big discussion circles going on and I am sure there is more class struggle to work with. You are right we don't try to organize "anti-imperialist marches" like the PSL does or whatever. But in my opinion they do "nothing" to. I mean, I do a bunch of stuff too. I do my math homework, and I like watching the Wire.

[red cat]

The problem is that armed struggle today is never the majority of the class arming themselves, but a small, ideological minority claiming to fight in the name of the working class. This is representation at it's worst.

Majority with respect to what, the working class of the whole world, a single country, or a single city or village ? And what ensures that most of the working class will be most exploited or rebel exactly together ? Also please explain how a portion of the working class rebelling earlier than the rest is equivalent to an "ideological minority claiming to fight in the name of the working class".

[StalinFanboy]

That's cute and everything, but EVERY SINGLE TENDENCY also does the exact same thing.
I never denied this? What are you trying to say here?

[Franz Fanonipants]

I never denied this? What are you trying to say here?

the self-congratulatory stuff i got neg-repped for is exactly the point i'm making. i appreciate the "little way" and shit, but really, there's no reason to be smug about it.

[black magick hustla]

That's cute and everything, but EVERY SINGLE TENDENCY also does the exact same thing.
What is your point?

[black magick hustla]

the self-congratulatory stuff i got neg-repped for is exactly the point i'm making. i appreciate the "little way" and shit, but really, there's no reason to be smug about it.
i don't think anybody is smug about it. We have said a billion times we are insignificant. Maybe I am a bit forceful (cut me some slack i am a jaded 20something who read SA) when I post, but I don't think Devrim is.

[Franz Fanonipants]

i don't think anybody is smug about it. We have said a billion times we are insignificant. Maybe I am a bit forceful (cut me some slack i am a jaded 20something who read SA) when I post, but I don't think Devrim is.

Honestly, dude, I've never seen a Left Com who I personally wouldn't call smug. I mean, it is the internet, that shit is kind of the core of discourse, but really tone is one of the big reasons I don't take you all seriously.

Of course, I wouldn't expect anyone to take me seriously either but you know...

p.s. bro lets go get fucked up and watch atlas shrugged ironically

[Gorilla]

i don't think anybody is smug about it. We have said a billion times we are insignificant. Maybe I am a bit forceful (cut me some slack i am a jaded 20something who read SA) when I post, but I don't think Devrim is.

No really, you guys are smug as fuck even by the standards of the toilet of smugness that is Revleft, especially Devrim. Especially Devrim. Like, a lot.

Sincerely,

Smug Idiot on the Internet

[black magick hustla]

feigned humility

[black magick hustla]

socrates did that shit too (first troll in history)

[RedSunRising]

You are right we don't try to organize "anti-imperialist marches" like the PSL does or whatever. But in my opinion they do "nothing" to. I mean, I do a bunch of stuff too. I do my math homework, and I like watching the Wire.

The PSL is not Maoist. They were Trots who decided that they actually cared more about the world's oppressed and exploited majority rather than just being right, so they became Tankies. Their comrades seem decent even if I disagree (strongly in some cases) with their politics. I dont have enough experiance to judge their activity.

What do you think Maoists do? We dont issue jump like Trotskyites around fashionable causes in order to recruit students. We are involved with real life people in their day to day struggles within working class and (and in the third world) poor peasant communities, building up people's trust in the revolutionary movement because working class can tell often straight away if a "leftist" is just into using them for a power trip and are rightly suspcious often of those would come along as "saviours", but also building up the trust of people in themselves and their own power.

[Broletariat]

I never thought I'd laugh this much at politics.

[red cat]

They were Trots who decided that they actually cared more about the world's oppressed and exploited majority rather than just being right, so they became Tankies.

They are not exactly Tankies. Their line is semi-revolutionary and includes support for the ongoing revolutions led by Maoists.

[Thirsty Crow]

They are not exactly Tankies. Their line is semi-revolutionary and includes support for the ongoing revolutions led by Maoists.
Semi-revolutionary? What the hell would that mean??

[red cat]

Semi-revolutionary? What the hell would that mean??

Not very revolutionary, but not very reactionary either.

[RedSunRising]

They are not exactly Tankies. Their line is semi-revolutionary and includes support for the ongoing revolutions led by Maoists.

But some Tankies can be semi-revolutionary, not all Kruschevite revisionists are out and out social democrats. I dont live in the United States but I have come across non-aligned activists in my country and people in various left wing groups who hold nearly the same politics as the PSL.

[Devrim]

No really, you guys are smug as fuck even by the standards of the toilet of smugness that is Revleft, especially Devrim. Especially Devrim. Like, a lot.

Really I am quite puzzled as to what you mean. I obviously don't intend to come across as smug. Please can you explain it.

Devrim

[Broletariat]

Really I am quite puzzled as to what you mean. I obviously don't intend to come across as smug. Please can you explain it.

Devrim

The fact that you're getting wrapped up in this is funny in the most ironic way ever.

[Gorilla]

Really I am quite puzzled as to what you mean. I obviously don't intend to come across as smug. Please can you explain it.

Devrim

Naw, if I meant it as anything other than a semi-affectionate jibe, I wouldn't have signed it "Smug Idiot on the Internet."

Sincerely,

Smug Idiot on the Internet

[Thirsty Crow]

Not very revolutionary, but not very reactionary either.

This has got to be a joke :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

If I were to explain an organization's politics to someone oblivious to all the sectarian intricacies of the left in such a way - I'd get bombarded by laughter. For a good reason.

[red cat]

This has got to be a joke :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

If I were to explain an organization's politics to someone oblivious to all the sectarian intricacies of the left in such a way - I'd get bombarded by laughter. For a good reason.

Why does this seem to be a joke to you ? There are many shades in between being revolutionary and reactionary.

[JoeySteel]

lol I'd probably be put into this group of "dumb people." I don't actually think those posters are dumb, just not as articulate or patient as other LeftComs. At least that's how I am. Basically I just have nothing to prove to anyone online. Or offline for that matter. I'm involved in real projects in real life. I know this is true. And I don't need some internet Maoists' approval for it to be true either.

I think it's weird that internet Maoists accuse LeftComs of never "organizing revolutionary wars" or whatever, but don't take the time to understand that that is not what LeftComs are trying to do. We are not trying to represent the working class. We are not trying to manage the economy. We do not think that revolutions are started by "revolutionaries" because we are not idealists that think the world is changed by ideologies. We understand that working class moves on its own due to the inherent antagonisms within capitalist class society. And this is a historical fact. It seems like Maoists give up some pretty basic ideas of Marxian thought when they have an opportunity to be leaders or in charge.

I'm really glad I didn't know any left coms when I was a young worker turning communist... The point, however, is to...?

[Robocommie]

Frankly guys, I think Bob Avakian.

[RedSunRising]

Frankly guys, I think Bob Avakian.

Bob Avakian is weirdo. MonkeySmashesHeaven are less weird, but still psychoes.

I would would regard the PSL are preferable to either frankly.

[9]

this thread...

[Paulappaul]

The thing is, you're the most fucking tiresome tendency around because of all your endless self-congratulatory bullshit.

It isn't even about doctrinal correctness or w/e, its about the way you fucking comport yourselves.

Why hasn't this shithead been restricted or something? All he does is troll this thread and receives likes from M-L's to scared to post shit themselves.

Left Communism has a rich history in the Workers movement, from the Communist Workers' Party of Germany (Which held way more rank and file members then the Bolshevik supported Communist Party), to the General Workers' Union (which held more members in Germany then the IWW abroad if I am not mistaken), to the Communist Party in Italy, United Workers' Party in America, Communist Party in Holland, to the International Grouping of Council Communists and the International Communist Current today which has a respectable movement in Turkey and in the Middle East.

[Robocommie]

Why hasn't this shithead been restricted or something? All he does is troll this thread and receives likes from M-L's to scared to post shit themselves.

Pfft, scared nothing, this shit is hilarious. Don't take this site too seriously man. Don't. Take. This Shit. Too Seriously. Man.

Seriously, dudes talk about all the important real life shit they got going on and how they've got nothing to prove, and then they get really concerned about a forum.

[internasyonalista]

"A very common feature shared among all the Maoist movements is the continuous slandering and misinformation spread about them by extreme-right to self proclaimed far-left groups. We don't have comrades from the Philippines here who may verify your claims for us, so please give examples from the Indian Maoist movement when you make any general observation on Maoists. Then we can point out exactly which of your claims are true and which are possibly just repetitions of random falsities spread by the bourgeois mass-media."

I was once with the Philippine maoist party in the 70s-80s. The only falsities I think bourgeois media and the maoist rival state is their exaggeration of what is really happening in the countryside. My apology if I don't have any knowledge about Indian maoist movement. What I said is they have "many commonalities". Based on my experience in the maoist movement, they don't rape women or randomly kill civilians as what some posters here tried to picture out. They are "very discipline" people like an army faithfully obeying their commander in battles without any questions. But this does not deny the fact that they are part of a bourgeois faction with a very radical language about socialism using the poison of nationalism and democracy.
Last year the mainstream maoists here in the Philippines openly supported a big-capitalist (billionaire tainted with corruption) politician and even embedded its 2 senatorial candidates to a traditional big bourgeois party. This created a "dissension" within its ranks. Those who dissent with the official tactics were accuse as "senderistas", as if like in maoist Peru who does not participate in elections or in India. They even labelled as "trotskyists".

[internasyonalista]

We had Armand Iskra but he hasn't logged in for a while.

Yeah, Armand is a young Filipino maoist. He is a friend of mine in Facebook. We had discussions and debates in a very fraternal manner.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Obviously the class composition of Maoist guerrilla movements is based on the peasantry but its almost a stock stereotype that the leadership comes from urban intellectuals, the original "class of "68", people who were radicalised during that era and went off into the wilds to follow Che or Mao. There's nothing wrong with this in and off itself.

The problem with peasant based guerrilla movements is that they are of necessity based on a military command structure. Whatever "mass line struggle" might be followed, these organisations are not fully democratic. They can't be. Mao led a succesful revolution in which the mode of production was changed somewhat and there were elements of socialism. Mao's China was never a "worker's democracy" which is necessary for moving a society forward. The fact that China, Cuba, and other countries were not worker's democracies, were not ruled by the working class as a class for and by itself, goes far in explaining why their ruling groups restored (or are restoring in the case of Cuba) capitalism. I have not seen a Maoist explanation for the failures of Maoism.Bordiga was right when he said the "purpose" of Stalinism was to create the basis for capitalism, in regions where it couldn't develop "naturally"

I'm not up on "Senderology" but I do know the SL has gotten a lot of bad press from other leftists in Peru, as has FARC in Columbia and similar groups. Abuses are almost inevitable given how the struggle is carried out.

Much of left communist strategy and tactics is too ultra-leftist for me-abstaining from electioneering, attitudes towards union based struggles, etc. I think much of their theory-decadence theory, etc. and critiques of the early Soviet Union can be valuable.

Why haven't the Naxalites fully linked up w/the India working class? This would seem to me to be of the utmost importance.

[Gorilla]

Why haven't the Naxalites fully linked up w/the India working class? This would seem to me to be of the utmost importance.

Yawning chasm between rural and urban life in India and resulting contradictions would be the main reason. I'm sure political line etc. could always be improved but bridging that gap in the social base would be a tall order even for the Platonic ideal of a revolutionary vanguard party.

[RedSunRising]

Why haven't the Naxalites fully linked up w/the India working class? This would seem to me to be of the utmost importance.

They are, with the actual urban working class and not with institutions that claim to represent the working class, but the actual working class...There is a difference.

[The Red Next Door]

They are not exactly Tankies. Their line is semi-revolutionary and includes support for the ongoing revolutions led by Maoists.

We are Semi? Nah, We are very revolutionary, i do not know where you got semi from. Again, we do not partake in election just so we can win the election, we use election to get attention only, We do not give a flying fuck about winning a fucking election and if we did, we will be coup out of office before any PSL leader get into it, That why, we believe this system should be ousted by force, not by winning some dame election, take time to read our program.

[The Red Next Door]

The next time, i repeat myself. I am going to ***** slap hong se and i can say that because he actually a friend, so don't give me an infraction.

[redasheville]

"***** slap"

[The Douche]

i don't think this is true? I mean in places like the US it might seem we are doing "nothing" because there is really not much to be done. (I've been part of organizing a small communist group and we are currently on the process of discussing the ICC platform). But the other day i was talking to Leo and he said he had to go because he had to check out some "health strike", but he lives in Ankara. Or down in Mexico, cdes have some pretty big discussion circles going on and I am sure there is more class struggle to work with. You are right we don't try to organize "anti-imperialist marches" like the PSL does or whatever. But in my opinion they do "nothing" to. I mean, I do a bunch of stuff too. I do my math homework, and I like watching the Wire.

I was just being snarky. Ala Dauve and "doing nothing".


I do think that the left-communist approach is a bit economist, albeit not economist in the vulgar way that some trotskyist groups are (like Solidarity).

[RedSunRising]

We are Semi? Nah, We are very revolutionary, i do not know where you got semi from. Again, we do not partake in election just so we can win the election, we use election to get attention only, We do not give a flying fuck about winning a fucking election and if we did, we will be coup out of office before any PSL leader get into it, That why, we believe this system should be ousted by force, not by winning some dame election, take time to read our program.

There is a lot good about the PSL as far as I can see.

Yet the problem is that you support regimes like the current mess in China.

We dont.

That said from what I know of it I would rate the PSL above the RCP-USA, MonkeySmashesHeaven and the Kasama Project.

But you arent Maoist and you need to look at seriously what you consider socialism.

[mosfeld]

We are Semi? Nah, We are very revolutionary, i do not know where you got semi from. Again, we do not partake in election just so we can win the election, we use election to get attention only, We do not give a flying fuck about winning a fucking election and if we did, we will be coup out of office before any PSL leader get into it, That why, we believe this system should be ousted by force, not by winning some dame election, take time to read our program. Maoists view eclectic parties like the PSL as "semi-revolutionary" due to its, on one hand, support for revolutionary PPWs but, on the other hand, support for revisionism and social-imperialism. I don't think it has anything to do with whether or not you participate in elections or not.

[RedSunRising]

Maoists view eclectic parties like the PSL as "semi-revolutionary" due to its, on one hand, support for revolutionary PPWs but, on the other hand, support for revisionism and social-imperialism. I don't think it has anything to do with whether or not you participate in elections or not.

But we have to remember that the PSL is made up of human beings, human beings who support the People's Wars (which is a HUGE thing) and desire socialism in the USA. I would imagine that they contain a lot of genuine working class militants.

[RedSunRising]

I do think that the left-communist approach is a bit economist, albeit not economist in the vulgar way that some trotskyist groups are (like Solidarity).

How are Left-Communist not economist in the vulgar sense? And Im refering to the main LeftCom groupings today and not the KAPD or whatever.

[mosfeld]

But we have to remember that the PSL is made up of human beings, human beings who support the People's Wars (which is a HUGE thing) and desire socialism in the USA. I would imagine that they contain a lot of genuine working class militants.

Sure. But the electic line of supporting basically everyone might work to a certain degree right now, but it wont work forever. It's pretty much inevitable that Maoists and revisionists will collide in South Asia and Latin America, and these PSL members will have to choose between either Maoism or, respectively, China and "Bolivarianists".

Three examples:

In Peru, Humala, who is likely to win the Peruvian elections, is very much aligned towards Chávez, and will probably make Peru join ALBA or something. But, the PCP is opposed to Humala and bourgeois elections in general. Will the PSL support the PCP or Humala?

In Bolivia, the FRP-MLM, is opposed to Morales. When the PPW starts, will they side with Morales or the Maoists?

In South Asia, the Maoists are, of course, opposed to China and I've heard from red cat that China has accused the CPI(Maoist) of being terrorists. When the revolution comes, will the PSL support the Maoists or revisionist China?

etc

Eclectic parties which support contradictory forces are doomed to eventually split.

[RedSunRising]

Eclectic parties which support contradictory forces are doomed to eventually split.

Yes they are doomed split. I dont doubt that.

However their confused line reflects that state of class forces in the USA.

[The Douche]

How are Left-Communist not economist in the vulgar sense? And Im refering to the main LeftCom groupings today and not the KAPD or whatever.

Because left communists, do not in my experience, think revolution will be made by struggling inside of unions, within the confines of the union bosses' strategies, for simple economist demands like wage increases.

They seek to participate in the struggles of the working class while bringing a communist perspective and always arguing for the communist method and solution.

[red cat]

Because left communists, do not in my experience, think revolution will be made by struggling inside of unions, within the confines of the union bosses' strategies, for simple economist demands like wage increases.

They seek to participate in the struggles of the working class while bringing a communist perspective and always arguing for the communist method and solution.

Just something that I came across in Wikipedia. I am not claiming that it must be true, but do you think these type of "struggles" will lead to communism ?


Against this Kamunist Kranti has tried to develop and support a more everyday form of resistance that they observe every day, even among so-called apathetic workers that avoid the spectacular forms of struggle. The personal ties of friendship and family outside of work is also present at the work place and creates affinity groups. People help each other and create volumes of communication channels with other groups and association, something which can lead to collective forms of struggle developing.


As an example of this type of struggle the group mentions an incident where management had restricted the number of bathroom breaks, which lead the workers to urinate on the floor until that decision was reversed. Another example is when workers have been ordered to operate dangerous machinery without being trained in their safe use; while using the machinery they "accidentally" break the machines thereby proving that they need proper training.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Khawaga/Kamunist_Kranti

[red cat]

We are Semi? Nah, We are very revolutionary, i do not know where you got semi from. Again, we do not partake in election just so we can win the election, we use election to get attention only, We do not give a flying fuck about winning a fucking election and if we did, we will be coup out of office before any PSL leader get into it, That why, we believe this system should be ousted by force, not by winning some dame election, take time to read our program.

I am aware that your party takes revolutionary stands in many issues and I have no doubt that most of you are dedicated revolutionaries. However, the international line of your party is pretty confused and it backs groups that are mutually opposed to the extent of backing military actions against each other. These are reactionary lines inside your party and they will become very prominent in later stages.

[black magick hustla]

Just something that I came across in Wikipedia. I am not claiming that it must be true, but do you think these type of "struggles" will lead to communism ?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Khawaga/Kamunist_Kranti
i dont think KK is left communist, but i do think they are somewhat close to us. KK has a very weird approach to strikes.

[RedSunRising]

Just something that I came across in Wikipedia. I am not claiming that it must be true, but do you think these type of "struggles" will lead to communism ?


I know of cases in my country where immigrant (particularly female immigrant workers who scumbag capitalists feel they can so easily abuse) have sabotaged machinary or otherwise damaged things. The scumbag capitalists of course have insurance and can claim damages off the government. However I would not condemn such activity.

The fact remains though that the "winter of discontent" which was a huge wildcat strike in England led to nothing. Ultra-leftists fail to understand that revolution is something social, that takes in all of a person's being.

[Gorilla]

Just something that I came across in Wikipedia. I am not claiming that it must be true, but do you think these type of "struggles" will lead to communism ?


Against this Kamunist Kranti has tried to develop and support a more everyday form of resistance that they observe every day, even among so-called apathetic workers that avoid the spectacular forms of struggle. The personal ties of friendship and family outside of work is also present at the work place and creates affinity groups. People help each other and create volumes of communication channels with other groups and association, something which can lead to collective forms of struggle developing.


As an example of this type of struggle the group mentions an incident where management had restricted the number of bathroom breaks, which lead the workers to urinate on the floor until that decision was reversed. Another example is when workers have been ordered to operate dangerous machinery without being trained in their safe use; while using the machinery they "accidentally" break the machines thereby proving that they need proper training.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Khawaga/Kamunist_Kranti

One wouldn't have thought that a debate between left-communists and Marxist-Leninists would come to the point where the perfect, obvious refutation to a Marxist-Leninist's post would lie precisely in Lenin's Left Communism: An Infantile Disorder. But this, of course, is Revleft.

[Paulappaul]

How are Left-Communist not economist in the vulgar sense? And Im refering to the main LeftCom groupings today and not the KAPD or whatever.

You could actually have more of an argument with Classical Leftcom organisations i.e. AAUD, KAPD, but as far as modern LeftCom groupings like the ICC or the ICT are more like International Revolutionary Parties then Economist Socialists.

[red cat]

"A very common feature shared among all the Maoist movements is the continuous slandering and misinformation spread about them by extreme-right to self proclaimed far-left groups. We don't have comrades from the Philippines here who may verify your claims for us, so please give examples from the Indian Maoist movement when you make any general observation on Maoists. Then we can point out exactly which of your claims are true and which are possibly just repetitions of random falsities spread by the bourgeois mass-media."

I was once with the Philippine maoist party in the 70s-80s. The only falsities I think bourgeois media and the maoist rival state is their exaggeration of what is really happening in the countryside. My apology if I don't have any knowledge about Indian maoist movement. What I said is they have "many commonalities". Based on my experience in the maoist movement, they don't rape women or randomly kill civilians as what some posters here tried to picture out. They are "very discipline" people like an army faithfully obeying their commander in battles without any questions. But this does not deny the fact that they are part of a bourgeois faction with a very radical language about socialism using the poison of nationalism and democracy.
Last year the mainstream maoists here in the Philippines openly supported a big-capitalist (billionaire tainted with corruption) politician and even embedded its 2 senatorial candidates to a traditional big bourgeois party. This created a "dissension" within its ranks. Those who dissent with the official tactics were accuse as "senderistas", as if like in maoist Peru who does not participate in elections or in India. They even labelled as "trotskyists".

Thank you for being honest enough to admit that Maoists do not go on rape and murder sprees. I cannot ask you exactly what your role was in the Maoist movement, but I think you have not understood the dynamics of Maoist tactics at all. Maoists sometimes support the weaker among their enemies to bring about a power balance which ultimately helps them in weakening the ruling classes militarily. Also, Maoists do not impose their decisions on the broader working class. Sometimes the masses look for options other than a bloody revolution, and hence opt for change of regime through elections. In this situation the more popular bourgeois regimes that have not been in power recently can turn a portion of the masses against the Maoists if they oppose elections completely. So Maoists might let these regimes come to power according to mass demands and let the masses learn from experience.

[red cat]

I know of cases in my country where immigrant (particularly female immigrant workers who scumbag capitalists feel they can so easily abuse) have sabotaged machinary or otherwise damaged things. The scumbag capitalists of course have insurance and can claim damages off the government. However I would not condemn such activity.

The fact remains though that the "winter of discontent" which was a huge wildcat strike in England led to nothing. Ultra-leftists fail to understand that revolution is something social, that takes in all of a person's being.

All that is okay, workers can do anything that benefits them. But confining an organization's actions to only these for years, and denouncing almost every other organization ... that seems a bit hypocritical.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Obviously the class composition of Maoist guerrilla movements is based on the peasantry but its almost a stock stereotype that the leadership comes from urban intellectuals, the original "class of "68", people who were radicalised during that era and went off into the wilds to follow Che or Mao. There's nothing wrong with this in and off itself.

The problem with peasant based guerrilla movements is that they are of necessity based on a military command structure. Whatever "mass line struggle" might be followed, these organisations are not fully democratic.

That's the whole point of peasant patrimonialism, which has recurred throughout the history of the peasantry.

[The Douche]

Just something that I came across in Wikipedia. I am not claiming that it must be true, but do you think these type of "struggles" will lead to communism ?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Khawaga/Kamunist_Kranti

What I see there is an organization accepting and promoting methods of labor struggle outside the general confines of the "managers" of struggle (i.e. the unions).

So in my understanding the left coms would enter into that situation, encourage the workers to continue to struggle outside the "acceptable methods" and would campaign for an intensification of the struggle and to push the idea that ultimately only communism can resolve their contradictions with the bosses.

[RedSunRising]

All that is okay, workers can do anything that benefits them. But confining an organization's actions to only these for years, and denouncing almost every other organization ... that seems a bit hypocritical.

And this is the fundamental problem with this type of ultra-leftism. It confines itself to struggles which are essentially reformist. In no way do these Indian ultra-leftists or the ICC point the way to the conquest of power.

[red cat]

What I see there is an organization accepting and promoting methods of labor struggle outside the general confines of the "managers" of struggle (i.e. the unions).

So in my understanding the left coms would enter into that situation, encourage the workers to continue to struggle outside the "acceptable methods" and would campaign for an intensification of the struggle and to push the idea that ultimately only communism can resolve their contradictions with the bosses.

But they haven't done anything significant all these years. In India the working class is so oppressed in places that they have attacked their bosses and actually tried to take control over the means of production. The aim of any serious communist would be to start from these more radical and exploited sections of the working class first. Show me an instance where left-coms have participated in their struggles? They don't even report most of these struggles, let alone participate in them.

[RedSunRising]

What I see there is an organization accepting and promoting methods of labor struggle outside the general confines of the "managers" of struggle (i.e. the unions)..

Maoists in France and Scotland also critiqued the role of Trade Unions. Scottish Maoists infact questioned Lenin's criticism of the original "Left-Communists", in some ways they were right. The problem with modern Left Communist is there dogmatism and as you pointed out economism.

In the real modern world we are very much opposed to Social Democracy and yellow Trade Unions.

[The Douche]

But they haven't done anything significant all these years. In India the working class is so oppressed in places that they have attacked their bosses and actually tried to take control over the means of production. The aim of any serious communist would be to start from these more radical and exploited sections of the working class first. Show me an instance where left-coms have participated in their struggles? They don't even report most of these struggles, let alone participate in them.

Like I said, I think left-communism tends to be economistic, just not as vulgarly economistic as other tendencies or as people accuse it of being.

[black magick hustla]

One wouldn't have thought that a debate between left-communists and Marxist-Leninists would come to the point where the perfect, obvious refutation to a Marxist-Leninist's post would lie precisely in Lenin's Left Communism: An Infantile Disorder. But this, of course, is Revleft.

And then of course, there is "Letter to Comrade Lenin"

(i havent read both btw i am allergic to ancient communist polemics)

[black magick hustla]

And this is the fundamental problem with this type of ultra-leftism. It confines itself to struggles which are essentially reformist. In no way do these Indian ultra-leftists or the ICC point the way to the conquest of power.
What is "conquest of power" though? A military success enacted by a militarized party?

[Paulappaul]

So in my understanding the left coms would enter into that situation, encourage the workers to continue to struggle outside the "acceptable methods" and would campaign for an intensification of the struggle and to push the idea that ultimately only communism can resolve their contradictions with the bosses.

A good example of this is from the Boston Public Workers "ferment" in the 1980s. Following some anti - tax legislation which cut Teachers and Public employee wages and benefits, a Left Communist Teacher and some teachers in a school frustrated with the fact that the Union didn't care about the cuts, put out a leaflet talking about the legislation and the union reaction. They distributed it with representatives from the ICC to public employees everywhere in the state. Alot of really spontaneous and intresting things happened. For one, they created Workers' Committees which encompassed all public employees regardless of profession or union status. It's a pretty interesting story and shows what a little initiative can do. Loren Goldner writes a good article on this whole thing on his website.

[RedSunRising]

What is "conquest of power" though? A military success enacted by a militarized party?

Cant see any other way.

[black magick hustla]

And this is the fundamental problem with this type of ultra-leftism. It confines itself to struggles which are essentially reformist. In no way do these Indian ultra-leftists or the ICC point the way to the conquest of power.
To continue on this. Left Communists and the ICC believe in the creation of a world party. We think the Comintern was the closest to that line. The ICC calls groups like the KK "modernist" because they are anti-organizational. Idk how down I am with that concept but we do believe in political organization.

[black magick hustla]

Cant see any other way.

But the point is that militarized parties are not really the working class, they are comformed by dedicated cadre that supposedly the "masses" "support". How can it be a proletarian revolution if the proletariat does not enact revolution?

[internasyonalista]

but I think you have not understood the dynamics of Maoist tactics at all.

Perhaps my 2 decades of experience with maoism and in the countryside waging guerrilla warfare still not enough to "understand maoism" as what you understood. Maybe you understand it well.:)

And by the way, what I've said in my posts about what the Filipino maoists were doing is not based on what I read or hear. It's based on my own experience. As the saying goes, "experience is the best teacher".

[RedSunRising]

But the point is that militarized parties are not really the working class, they are comformed by dedicated cadre that supposedly the "masses" "support". How can it be a proletarian revolution if the proletariat does not enact revolution?

You sure about that? Even some of those close to you politically disagreed http://gci-icg.org/english/communism10.htm#icc ....Bit of an embaressment that.

[Paulappaul]

Even some of those close to you politically disagreed http://gci-icg.org/english/communism10.htm#icc (http://www.anonym.to/?http://gci-icg.org/english/communism10.htm#icc) ....Bit of an embaressment that.

ICG is a bit different from the ICC. The ICG thinks the ICC never broke with Social Democracy. Some Left Communists still believe in a Revolutionary Party, just one consisting of and controlled by the working class and not of a "dedicated cadre".

[black magick hustla]

You sure about that? Even some of those close to you politically disagreed http://gci-icg.org/english/communism10.htm#icc ....Bit of an embaressment that.
i dont think the icg is a left communist organization. i think they are obsessed with violence and the shedding of blood and have some weird ideas about how everything is a conspiracy (including hiv, which according to them was invented by the bourgeosie). so they might have similar origins, but they are their own shit now and i and many other leftcoms fundamentally disagree with them

[red cat]

Perhaps my 2 decades of experience with maoism and in the countryside waging guerrilla warfare still not enough to "understand maoism" as what you understood. Maybe you understand it well.:)

Maybe, or maybe that you too understand it just as well, it just matters now which class we side with.


And by the way, what I've said in my posts about what the Filipino maoists were doing is not based on what I read or hear. It's based on my own experience. As the saying goes, "experience is the best teacher".I know that. In India too the words coming from former Maoists who start seeing salvation in legal movements are the same as those of yours. However, I believe that non-renegades who continue to fight and die for the revolution will strongly disagree with you on your points.

[black magick hustla]

I know that. In India too the words coming from former Maoists who start seeing salvation in legal movements are the same as those of yours. However, I believe that non-renegades who continue to fight and die for the revolution will strongly disagree with you on your points.
the working class and peasants are always rallied by the bosses to slit each other throats. nothing new here. our forefathers died for nothing and our brothers keep dying for nothing

[RedSunRising]

But the point is that militarized parties are not really the working class, they are comformed by dedicated cadre that supposedly the "masses" "support". How can it be a proletarian revolution if the proletariat does not enact revolution?

Cannot a working class person be dedicated cadre? :confused:

The point of posting that was that some from "Left Communism" broadly speaking could recognize the proletarian content of the People's War in Peru. You cant.

[red cat]

the working class and peasants are always rallied by the bosses to slit each other throats. nothing new here. our forefathers died for nothing and our brothers keep dying for nothing

It is different when the working class fights through its own organization against the ruling classes, which is now happening in many parts of India.

[RedSunRising]

the working class and peasants are always rallied by the bosses to slit each other throats. nothing new here. our forefathers died for nothing and our brothers keep dying for nothing

The only problem is that the Naxalites like Maoists before them empower the people and do all that they can to place power and knowledge in their hands. You would be laughed out of the place if you suggested to their cadre that they were actually following evil capitalists.

[internasyonalista]

But they haven't done anything significant all these years. In India the working class is so oppressed in places that they have attacked their bosses and actually tried to take control over the means of production. The aim of any serious communist would be to start from these more radical and exploited sections of the working class first. Show me an instance where left-coms have participated in their struggles? They don't even report most of these struggles, let alone participate in them.

I think ICC militants in India do participate and intervene in workers' struggles there. They distributed leaflets and having meetings with workers in struggle. Perhaps like me the comrades there are not "well-versed" in english language discussion forums like revleft that's why their leaflets are not posted here. Besides we in the "3rd world" have no much "luxury" of time sitting in the computers with internet. :)

But here is the latest english translated text of their latest intervention in India in the ICC site: (Sorry I can't post the link. Revleft block me because my posts do not yet reach 25!)

Unfortunately, the methods of left-coms in intervening in struggle is basically not the same as what the maoists and leftists do: "forming legal/front mass organizations and unions control by the maoist party and planning mobilizations, etc. In the Philippines the maoists call this "arouse, organize, mobilize".

[black magick hustla]

[QUOTE=RedSunRising;2086503]Cannot a working class person be dedicated cadre? :confused:
[QUOTE]
of course they can. most "bourgeois" parties have the mayority as working class members. there is a whole essay i could write about maoism as an anti working class ideology, from methodlogy (armed military struggle is not the vehicle of the class, the vehicle of the class is the mass strike and the seizure of the means of production, the maoists are based in the peasantry and the petit bourgeois, not in the urban working class) to political goals (new democracy, nationalism, being in bed with national bosses, etc). both of course are intimately linked.

[black magick hustla]

The only problem is that the Naxalites like Maoists before them empower the people and do all that they can to place power and knowledge in their hands. You would be laughed out of the place if you suggested to their cadre that they were actually following evil capitalists.
you would be laughed out the military if you called the us an imperialist regime

[black magick hustla]

It is different when the working class fights through its own organization against the ruling classes, which is now happening in many parts of India.
i dont think we are arguing anymore, this is just pointless rhetoric (as was my post about "workiers dying for nothing"). however my point is that "people being ready to die" is not an argument. workers are ready to die for their bosses all the time.

[RedSunRising]

you would be laughed out the military if you called the us an imperialist regime

And you cant see the difference between the Naxalites and the US army?

Can you also not the difference between the Black Panthers and the Klu Klux Klan???

[RedSunRising]

[QUOTE=RedSunRising;2086503]Cannot a working class person be dedicated cadre? :confused:
[QUOTE]
of course they can. most "bourgeois" parties have the mayority as working class members. there is a whole essay i could write about maoism as an anti working class ideology, from methodlogy (armed military struggle is not the vehicle of the class, the vehicle of the class is the mass strike and the seizure of the means of production, the maoists are based in the peasantry and the petit bourgeois, not in the urban working class) to political goals (new democracy, nationalism, being in bed with national bosses, etc). both of course are intimately linked.

Yes militarized Communist Parties which liberate women, execute bosses, collectize land under those who work it, etc are just the same as the GOP and neo-nazies.

[red cat]

I think ICC militants in India do participate and intervene in workers' struggles there. They distributed leaflets and having meetings with workers in struggle. Perhaps like me the comrades there are not "well-versed" in english language discussion forums like revleft that's why their leaflets are not posted here. Besides we in the "3rd world" have no much "luxury" of time sitting in the computers with internet. :)

But here is the latest english translated text of their latest intervention in India in the ICC site: (Sorry I can't post the link. Revleft block me because my posts do not yet reach 25!)

Unfortunately, the methods of left-coms in intervening in struggle is basically not the same as what the maoists and leftists do: "forming legal/front mass organizations and unions control by the maoist party and planning mobilizations, etc. In the Philippines the maoists call this "arouse, organize, mobilize".

The ICC has never participated in any Indian workers' struggle in a significant way. None of their activities have shown any features that prove them to be anything other than reformists. And please don't give the excuse of not being well versed in English or not being able to access the internet, I have read most of the ICC's online articles in Indian languages too. They contain no report of them participating in any big or radical workers' struggle. If being online for a short time had been a problem for the ICC members, then they would have posted on their own struggles rather than criticizing every other communist organization in the world.

[black magick hustla]

And you cant see the difference between the Naxalites and the US army?

i dont think there is a fundamental difference. Except that the US army has more money and guns.




Can you also not the difference between the Black Panthers and the Klu Klux Klan???
i would probably like the bpp members more than KKK members. i also think the BPP did some charity and drug education stuff, which also its not a political thing (today NGOS are better than this) its a good humanitarian thing. i probably would personally dislike more the KKK and would feel a strong impulse to kick one of their members heads until he coughs blood. i dont think the BPP offered any alternative though.

[black magick hustla]

[][QUOTE=RedSunRising;2086503] execute bosses, QUOTE]
i think this is one of the fundamental flaws of maoism. you guys think social relationships can be blown up if one has enough gunpowder

[RedSunRising]

i dont think the BPP offered any alternative though.

Which is why the US government spent so much hassle murdering them and destroying their organization. Yup.

In the real world they are heroes and inspirations to millions.

Soldiers of the people, they died so we could live....But sacrafice is bad word in ultra-leftist circles isnt it? Serving the people wont help you shag hipsters wearing scarves?

[red cat]

i dont think we are arguing anymore, this is just pointless rhetoric (as was my post about "workiers dying for nothing"). however my point is that "people being ready to die" is not an argument. workers are ready to die for their bosses all the time.

But you need to prove your point with respect to the Indian Maoist movement; you need to show how the struggles of Indian workers through the CPI(Maoist) are directed at themselves and not towards the ruling classes.

[internasyonalista]

Maybe, or maybe that you too understand it just as well, it just matters now which class we side with.

I know that. In India too the words coming from former Maoists who start seeing salvation in legal movements are the same as those of yours. However, I believe that non-renegades who continue to fight and die for the revolution will strongly disagree with you on your points.

Well, communists here in the Philippines like me are still hunted by the capitalist state dead or alive.

Yes, maoists here call us "renegades" and even "agents of the state". For them, they are the ONLY "revolutionary" organization and those who criticize them are "agents of the state" or "imperialism". The "friends" of the "revolution" for them are the capitalists who pay "revolutionary tax" for their "revolutionary government" in the countryside and the politicians who in one way or another give technical and financial support for their guerilla army and support the bills in parliament that maoist parliamentarians filed to become laws.

[RedSunRising]

[][QUOTE=RedSunRising;2086503] execute bosses, QUOTE]
i think this is one of the fundamental flaws of maoism. you guys think social relationships can be blown up if one has enough gunpowder

Social relations arent abstractions...They are human creations, capital has very much a human face.

[black magick hustla]

Which is why the US government spent so much hassle murdering them and destroying their organization. Yup.

the us state has destroy and infiltrated numerous neonazi organizations.




In the real world they are heroes and inspirations to millions.


this is not an argument



Soldiers of the people, they died so we could live....But sacrafice is bad word in ultra-leftist circles isnt it? Serving the people wont help you shag hipsters wearing scarves?


fuck you guys have no sense of humour

[black magick hustla]

i dont think talking about bordiga has helped me in my love life or has made my sexual activity any more frequent btw

[red cat]

i dont think there is a fundamental difference. Except that the US army has more money and guns.

So when the US army wins a battle most of its soldiers turn out to be local workers and peasants who take over the properties of landlords and big businessmen and form mass decision-making committees?

[RedSunRising]

fuck you guys have no sense of humour

Actually I do, my mates think sometimes I can be quite hilarious.

Some things I take seriously though. Some things I am prepared to die for.

Do Leftcoms ever consider dying for the people???

[black magick hustla]

Do Leftcoms ever consider dying for the people???
idk other people but i am not gonna die for anybody i am not anybodys jesus

[Gorilla]

i dont think talking about bordiga has helped me in my love life or has made my sexual activity any more frequent btw

Srsly. I can't think of a worse political line to pull with than left communism. I bet Juche would win in a randomized double-blind trial.

[RedSunRising]

the us state has destroy and infiltrated numerous neonazi organizations.

Do you have links?

The British state imprisoned "loyalists", does that mean that mean they werent also arming and instructing them?

Are you saying that the BPP was the same in the eyes of the US state as neo-Nazies???

[black magick hustla]

So when the US army wins a battle most of its soldiers turn out to be local workers and peasants who take over the properties of landlords and big businessmen and form mass decision-making committees?

most us soldiers are workers. most soldiers in most armies are workers. jesus.

[Paulappaul]

Do Leftcoms ever consider dying for the people???

Marinus van der Lubbe....

[RedSunRising]

idk other people but i am not gonna die for anybody i am not anybodys jesus

Okay now we get your commitment to the oppressed and exploited majority of the world's population.

Revolutionary Communists are prepared to lay their lives down to serve to people, guess thats why they are popular among the working people globally than the ICC??? :confused:

[RedSunRising]

Marinus van der Lubbe....

Was in the ICC?

I dont have a problem with the historic KAPD. They were a different story.

[black magick hustla]

Do you have links?

The British state imprisoned "loyalists", does that mean that mean they werent also arming and instructing them?

Are you saying that the BPP was the same in the eyes of the US state as neo-Nazies???

i dont know enough about american neonazis, but i know combat 18 in the uk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_18 was heavily infiltrated and rendered useless.

i think the state targets anything that threatens unity and order and the smooth functioning of institutions and buisness in general. i dont think the american state was afraid of the bpp as a vanguard of working class revolution or whatever. the bpp was always a minority and it didnt have any more than 5k members.

[black magick hustla]

Revolutionary Communists are prepared to lay their lives down to serve to people, guess thats why they are popular among the working people globally than the ICC??? :confused:

i dont think the maoists are the most popular bourgeois factions. i think stereotypical democratic orgs probably are. i am not ready to "lay down" what the fuck, i dont have a messiahs complex

[red cat]

Well, communists here in the Philippines like me are still hunted by the capitalist state dead or alive.

And you are posting here ?


Yes, maoists here call us "renegades" and even "agents of the state". For them, they are the ONLY "revolutionary" organization and those who criticize them are "agents of the state" or "imperialism".

Being a member of the ICC yourself, you cannot really criticize them at this point, can you ?



The "friends" of the "revolution" for them are the capitalists who pay "revolutionary tax" for their "revolutionary government" in the countryside and the politicians who in one way or another give technical and financial support for their guerilla army and support the bills in parliament that maoist parliamentarians filed to become laws.

Maoists judge people or groups by how much they help or oppose the revolution in practice. Capitalists that can be made useful for the revolution even temporarily are much better than those who do nothing other than writing against the revolution.

[red cat]

most us soldiers are workers. most soldiers in most armies are workers. jesus.

Local workers ? The majority of them ? Who take over the businesses of their former employers and create mass-committees ?

[black magick hustla]

Srsly. I can't think of a worse political line to pull with than left communism. I bet Juche would win in a randomized double-blind trial.
zizek is a ladiesman

[RedSunRising]

i dont know enough about american neonazis, but i know combat 18 in the uk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_18 was heavily infiltrated and rendered useless.
.

Yet in many ways they were pretty useful, were they not?

There is a contradiction between the capitalist and its attack dogs often, even usually, but to compare to contradiction between the capitalist state and forces seeking to destroy it outright is laughable.

[RedSunRising]

i dont think the maoists are the most popular bourgeois factions. i think stereotypical democratic orgs probably are. i am not ready to "lay down" what the fuck, i dont have a messiahs complex

So you dont have a genuine connection with the class, you dont feel that their life is your life, well not being communist I guess you wouldnt understand.

You think Revolutionary Communism is just another capitalist party but a bit eccentric, right? I see it differently.

[RedSunRising]

zizek is a ladiesman

And a fat revisionist with bad skin has to do with what??? :confused:

[Savage]

Social relations arent abstractions...They are human creations, capital has very much a human face.

I think the point was that the victory of labor over capital is not equatable with the destruction of individual representatives of capital:

''In fact the rule of the capitalists over the workers is only the rule over the workers themselves of the conditions of labour it, their independence, in the independent position they have taken on vis-à-vis the workers (apart from the objective conditions of the production process — the means of production — the conditions of labour include the objective conditions for the preservation and effective functioning of labour power, i.e. the means of subsistence), although this relation only comes to realisation in the realproduction process, which, as we have seen, is essentially a process of the production of surplus value, which includes the preservation of the old value; it is a process of the self-valorisation of the capital advanced. In circulation, capitalist and worker only stand vis-à-vis each other as sellers of commodities, but owing to the specific polarity of the kinds of commodity they sell to each other, the worker necessarily enters into the production process as a constituent in the use value, the real existence and the value existence of capital, although this relation is first brought to realisation within the production process, and the capitalist, who as a buyer of labour only exists dunamei, first becomes a real capitalist when the worker, who is eventua1iter [ultimately] converted into a wage labourer through the sale of his labour capacity, first really falls under the command of capital in that process. The functions performed by the capitalist are only the functions of capital itself performed with consciousness and will — the functions of value valorising itself through the absorption of living labour. The capitalist functions only as capital personified, capital as a person, just as the worker only functions as the personification of labour, which belongs to him as torment, as exertion, while it belongs to the capitalist as the substance that creates and increases wealth; and in fact it appears as such an element incorporated into capital in the production process, as its living, variable, factor. The rule of the capitalist over the worker is therefore the rule of the object over the human, of dead labour over living, of the product over the producer, since in fact the commodities which become means of domination over the worker (but purely as means of the rule of capital itself) are mere results of the production process, the products of the production process.''

[RedSunRising]

I think the point was that the victory of labor over capital is not equatable with the destruction of individual representatives of capital:

Nice quote but in my world there are capitalists and their various attack dogs, and there are proletarians. And they are all actual human beings.

[Savage]

Nice quote but in my world there are capitalists and their various attack dogs, and there are proletarians. And they are all actual human beings.
I'm not denying the existence of humans, I'm denying the effect of killing certain humans as a way to overcome the epoch of a particular mode of production.

[RedSunRising]

I'm not denying the existence of humans, I'm denying the effect of killing certain humans as a way to overcome the epoch of a particular mode of production.

Kill one, terrorize thousands?

And this epoch of a particular mode of production is enforced by particular human beings.

[RedSunRising]

If only the overthrow of capitalism was an intellectual debate....So much wouldnt have happened and we would be living in communist society we could all agree was cool by now.

[black magick hustla]

So you dont have a genuine connection with the class, you dont feel that their life is your life, well not being communist I guess you wouldnt understand.

You think Revolutionary Communism is just another capitalist party but a bit eccentric, right? I see it differently.
well i feel a connection with my class because IM part of the class. now if you stroll down to the "hardhat working class pub tm" and tell em you are worth their life you might get em to laugh a bit and maybe if they like you they might buy you a beer for being a funny guy

[RedSunRising]

well i feel a connection with my class because IM part of the class. now if you stroll down to the "hardhat working class pub tm" and tell em you are worth their life you might get em to laugh a bit and maybe if they like you they might buy you a beer for being a funny guy

Class in itself, class for itself?

This is supposed to be a forum for Communist militants though.

I have no doubt that comrades redcat and Mosfeld are prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice if called to do so.

[Savage]

Kill one, terrorize thousands?

And this epoch of a particular mode of production is enforced by particular human beings.
It's about the dichotomy between worldwide expropriation and isolated (and pointless) violence.

[black magick hustla]

comrades redcat and Mosfeld are prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice if called to do so.
and i am a phillipino maoist guerrilla

[RedSunRising]

It's about the dichotomy between worldwide expropriation and isolated (and pointless) violence.

Yeah revolution will happen globally and nicely all at the same time.

The struggle of the oppressed and exploited against those who are oppressing and exploiting them is senseless if it doesnt happen all at once. Until then we should all lie down.

:rolleyes:

[RedSunRising]

and i am a phillipino maoist guerrilla

Are you sure you arent mystic meg???

Honestly I hate being sarcastic, I really do...You should mediate on this though...

"Being communists, we fear nothing. Moreover, our Party has steeled us to challenge death itself, and to carry our life on our fingertips so that we may give it whenever the revolution demands it. We believe that this interview has overriding importance: it serves our Party, serves the revolution, serves our people and our class, and also--why not say it--serves the international proletariat, the peoples of the world, the world revolution. Whatever risk then, is nothing--especially, I repeat, steeled as we are by the Party."

[Gorilla]

This thread should really be called left communists who support rural guerrilla movements vs. left communists who oppose rural guerrilla movements wah wah wah since despite whatever historical differences of lineage or whatever you both hold identical ultra-left lines on bourgeois elections, trade union work and bourgeois/revisionist natlib movements.

[Savage]

Yeah revolution will happen globally and nicely all at the same time.

The struggle of the oppressed and exploited against those who are oppressing and exploiting them is senseless if it doesnt happen all at once. Until then we should all lie down.

:rolleyes:
A socialist revolution must overcome international capital if it is to survive.


Will it be possible for this revolution to take place in one country alone?

No. By creating the world market, big industry has already brought all the peoples of the Earth, and especially the civilized peoples, into such close relation with one another that none is independent of what happens to the others.
Further, it has co-ordinated the social development of the civilized countries to such an extent that, in all of them, bourgeoisie and proletariat have become the decisive classes, and the struggle between them the great struggle of the day. It follows that the communist revolution will not merely be a national phenomenon but must take place simultaneously in all civilized countries – that is to say, at least in England, America, France, and Germany.
It will develop in each of these countries more or less rapidly, according as one country or the other has a more developed industry, greater wealth, a more significant mass of productive forces. Hence, it will go slowest and will meet most obstacles in Germany, most rapidly and with the fewest difficulties in England. It will have a powerful impact on the other countries of the world, and will radically alter the course of development which they have followed up to now, while greatly stepping up its pace.
It is a universal revolution and will, accordingly, have a universal range.

[red cat]

This thread should really be called left communists who support rural guerrilla movements vs. left communists who oppose rural guerrilla movements wah wah wah since despite whatever historical differences of lineage or whatever you both hold identical ultra-left lines on bourgeois elections, trade union work and bourgeois/revisionist natlib movements.

Nope. Maoists work in all fronts while maintaining armed overthrowal of the ruling classes and subsequent seizure of the means of power by the working class and peasantry as the chief form of struggle.

[RedSunRising]

This thread should really be called left communists who support rural guerrilla movements vs. left communists who oppose rural guerrilla movements wah wah wah since despite whatever historical differences of lineage or whatever you both hold identical ultra-left lines on bourgeois elections, trade union work and bourgeois/revisionist natlib movements.

‘The key to carrying out a new democratic revolution is the independent role of the proletariat and its ability, through its Marxist-Leninist party, to establish its hegemony in the revolutionary struggle. Experience has shown again and again that even when a section of the national bourgeoisie joins the revolutionary movement, it will not and cannot lead a new democratic revolution, to say nothing of carrying this revolution through to completion. Similarly, history demonstrates the bankruptcy of an “anti- imperialist front” (or similar “revolutionary front”) which is not led by a Marxist-Leninist party, even when such a front or forces within it adopt a “Marxist” (actually pseudo-Marxist) colouration. While such revolutionary formations have led heroic struggles and even delivered powerful blows to the imperialists they have been proven to be ideologically and organisationally incapable of resisting imperialist and bourgeois influences. Even where such forces have seized power they have been incapable of carrying through a thoroughgoing revolutionary transformation of society and end up, sooner or later, being overthrown by the imperialists or themselves becoming a new reactionary ruling power in league with imperialists.’ – Declaration of the RIM

Bit different from the ICC, no?

[Gorilla]

Nope. Maoists work in all fronts while maintaining armed overthrowal of the ruling classes and subsequent seizure of the means of power by the working class and peasantry as the chief form of struggle.

You're saying Maoists of the CPI-Maoist and PCP-SL type don't take a left line on elections, trade union work and national liberation movements?

So, they're running candidates for Indian parliament, working in AITUC and forming popular fronts with social democrats and the national bourgeoisie?

[red cat]

You're saying Maoists don't take a left line on elections, trade union work and national liberation movements?

So, they're running candidates for Indian parliament, working in AITUC and forming popular fronts with social democrats and the national bourgeoisie?

There is a difference between that and not using these to advance the revolution. Let's consider trade unions for example. All the major trade unions are led by the ruling classes which ultimately liquidate the revolutionary efforts of the working class. Also, in the big cities it is not possible to conduct armed struggles right now. But the people's war has shaken the base of the ruling class so much that it is trying to pacify certain portions of the working class, which is why there is a slightly broader democratic space in the cities as of now. Therefore it is possible to build trade unions in the legal front which will not openly affiliate to the CP but slowly elevate the day-to-day struggles of the working class to higher levels and also recruit more proletarians for the clandestine CP. Inside the reactionary unions themselves, there are many potential revolutionaries who are being liquidated. Communists in the semi-legal front will enter these unions, manipulate their actions, render them weak or even direct workers from there to the revolutionary union. The object is not to criticize the ruling class alone, but to actually use its machineries against itself to whatever extent possible, while workers build their own organs of class power.

[RedSunRising]

Marxism-Leninism-Maoism isnt a religion, its a guide to taking power and insuring staying in power for the wretched of the earth based on the expeirance of past revolutionary movements. We dont reject any means of struggle dogmatically the way that ultra-leftists do.

[Robocommie]

This thread should really be called left communists who support rural guerrilla movements vs. left communists who oppose rural guerrilla movements wah wah wah since despite whatever historical differences of lineage or whatever you both hold identical ultra-left lines on bourgeois elections, trade union work and bourgeois/revisionist natlib movements.

Hell yeah. If you ain't a Soviet, you can GTFO. Brezhnevists represent! :cool:

:lol:

[Ravachol]

Honestly I haven't read half of the thread but this is as much comedy gold as the 'Strong leftist mercenaries'.

Laying down your life for teh proletariat! Steeled by the party! And all that from a few lads behind their pc who probably never even handled a gun or a knife whatnot. Come on, get a grip.

[Os Cangaceiros]

There is no doubt that what happened in Lucamarca was an act terrorism designed as the term suggests to terrorize. It sent out a clear message that the PCP was not an organization that was messing about and gave them an "aura" that invoked fear similar to how a teacher might do all in their power to come across as frightening when meeting a new class for the first time so avoid disciplinary problems later. In the long to medium run it worked to save many more lives than those taken that day.

Just something to consider.

Wow! The exact same tactic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acteal_massacre) utilized by paramilitary terror groups funded by nation-states! How can anything but meaningful social change result from such a punitive measure to prevent those rebellious peasants from turning against the followers of a philosophy professor who only had their best interests at heart?

[HEAD ICE]

I used to be an anarchist but now I am a Maoist because guerillas are cooler than car flippers.

I am ready to lay my life down for the working class even though I would paralyze if I got mugged by someone with a knife.

I love video games. I am from the 'first world.'

I am Maoist.

[RedSunRising]

Wow! The exact same tactic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acteal_massacre) utilized by paramilitary terror groups funded by nation-states! How can anything but meaningful social change result from such a punitive measure to prevent those rebellious peasants from turning against the followers of a philosophy professor who only had their best interests at heart?

It was an excess that was wrong. However lets face it is used by the class enemy because of its effectiveness. Thats the world we live in. You also seem to fail to ask yourself why so many of the working class and poor peasantry turned to the PCP despite of that action??

[HEAD ICE]

meanwhile the working class
http://www.chicagoclout.com/weblog/archives/Drinking%20on%20the%20Job%20Chicago%20City%20Worke r.jpg

btw this has to be the post of the century

[The Red Next Door]

Sure. But the electic line of supporting basically everyone might work to a certain degree right now, but it wont work forever. It's pretty much inevitable that Maoists and revisionists will collide in South Asia and Latin America, and these PSL members will have to choose between either Maoism or, respectively, China and "Bolivarianists".

Three examples:

In Peru, Humala, who is likely to win the Peruvian elections, is very much aligned towards Chávez, and will probably make Peru join ALBA or something. But, the PCP is opposed to Humala and bourgeois elections in general. Will the PSL support the PCP or Humala?

In Bolivia, the FRP-MLM, is opposed to Morales. When the PPW starts, will they side with Morales or the Maoists?

In South Asia, the Maoists are, of course, opposed to China and I've heard from red cat that China has accused the CPI(Maoist) of being terrorists. When the revolution comes, will the PSL support the Maoists or revisionist China?

etc

Eclectic parties which support contradictory forces are doomed to eventually split.

We support anybody who is willing to create socialism in there country, I mean the china issue is not black and white, China still have some socialist expects, and you never know. China might get an actual socialist in power. The CPC membership is not black and white either.

[red cat]

We support anybody who is willing to create socialism in there country, I mean the china issue is not black and white, China still have some socialist expects, and you never know. China might get an actual socialist in power. The CPC membership is not black and white either.

A group or party might claim to be willing to create socialism in a country while engaging in exactly the opposite actions. You should look more into the international associates of those who call themselves socialists.

The CPC at present is the biggest enemy of the socialist revolution in China. There are many workers in the lowermost levels of the CPC who are dissatisfied with the leadership or have even realized that this is probably not what the revolution was for, but due to the absence of organized revolutionary practice for a long time, they don't know what to do. Moreover, the organizational structure of the CPC is such that the revolutionary portions cannot organize themselves against the capitalist roaders. They will have to break with the party in order to do so.

Highly experienced revisionists of the CPC realize the threats from some of their own grass-root level workers and hence create seemingly left-groups inside the party itself that are actually loyal to the revisionist leadership and help in identifying as well as liquidating potential revolutionaries. There is no real revolutionary core in the higher levels of the CPC.

[twenty percent tip]

what the fuck is this shit. come on people .nobody cares too much about it when they gotta pay their rent and bills. get real .\this is why nobody gives a shit. whats the program? whats the plan? its all mental masturbation. get your heads out of the condom hats and think about it.

the workers gotta free themselves. how do class consius workers help that along? what do we do. this is like two lobsters fighting over a fish head then they realize theyre in a fucking cage and the fishermans are about to have them with butter .:D

[twenty percent tip]

anyone who says reviisonists in 2011 has some kind of deep mental damage or might as well be playing video computer games. get a fucking job .come talk to me

[RedSunRising]

anyone who says reviisonists in 2011 has some kind of deep mental damage or might as well be playing video computer games. get a fucking job .come talk to me

Well its better than going on about "parasites" and "official anarchists" and "subterranian formation of conciousness" the way some people we know do, dont they malador? ;)

[RedSunRising]

We support anybody who is willing to create socialism in there country, I mean the china issue is not black and white, China still have some socialist expects, and you never know. China might get an actual socialist in power. The CPC membership is not black and white either.

The problem with the PSL is that outside of the USA they dont draw a clear line between revolutionary communists and social democrats, Morales and Chavez are not out to create socialism they are out to bribe the working class with a nicer version of capitalism in order that it will side up with them against the main enemies of the class they represent who are the compradors and Imperialists (yes these are vicious enemies of our class as well). I agree also that the member of the CPC is not entirely corrupt, however in the case of the leadership I disagree with you. What is needed is not progressive middle class nationalist populism, but working class political independance.

[727Goon]

Cmon maoists lets be real we all know comrade maldoror is being humble, he's very prepared to OD for the class it's one of the basic tenants of hipster communism.

[Kléber]

Moreover, the organizational structure of the CPC is such that the revolutionary portions cannot organize themselves against the capitalist roaders. They will have to break with the party in order to do so.
So do you support there being democratic right for socialists to criticize the party and government without being labeled "traitors" and thrown in jail? Or do you only want political freedom for those you consider true Maoists and nobody else?

[red cat]

So do you support there being democratic right for socialists to criticize the party and government without being labeled "traitors" and thrown in jail? Or do you only want political freedom for those you consider true Maoists and nobody else?

I consider Maoists to be the only true socialist/communist tendency. However, I think that the right to criticize the government should be given to even the most annoying of pseudo-socialists.

[RedSunRising]

In fairness to the PSL support for the Chavez in Venzuela and support for him in the USA are two different things. The PSL as far as I can work out reject all capitalist factions in their own country. We have to take that into account.

[RedSunRising]

I consider Maoists to be the only true socialist/communist tendency. However, I think that the right to criticize the government should be given to even the most annoying of pseudo-socialists.

The right of working people to criticize officials is vital for a proletarian dictatorship. However giving political rights to those who would destroy that dictatorship is another thing. Surely the level of political freedom given would depend on its strength? Think about a new born workers' state as baby that has to be protected for diseases.

[red cat]

The right of working people to criticize officials is vital for a proletarian dictatorship. However giving political rights to those who would destroy that dictatorship is another thing. Surely the level of political freedom given would depend on its strength? Think about a new born workers' state as baby that has to be protected for diseases.

Until they engage in sabotage or espionage they won't be able to destroy the worker's state. Now consider a situation in which revisionists have seized power centrally and revolutionaries exist in unlinked small cores. If we put constraints on having political freedom, then it will be very easy for revisionists to ban revolutionaries when something like this happens. Revisionism, or decay from within, is the biggest threat before any protracted people's war of today. So we should advocate political freedom for anybody who at least verbally upholds communism. I even advocate giving political freedom to capitalist parties that do not discriminate. This way the masses are able to learn very well to identify their enemies themselves.

[Gorilla]

In fairness to the PSL support for the Chavez in Venzuela and support for him in the USA are two different things. The PSL as far as I can work out reject all capitalist factions in their own country. We have to take that into account.

It would be a great idea to start a PPW in Venezuela. That would totes bring socialism closer to fulfillment.

Your Friend,

The CIA

[mosfeld]

It would be a great idea to start a PPW in Venezuela. That would totes bring socialism closer to fulfillment.

Your Friend,

The CIA

Capitulators in the PCP said the same thing about Peru during the Velasco regime. People have repeatedly encouraged Naxals not to rebel in "C"PM areas as well. What you're saying is not new, it's something revisionists have advocated over and over again.

[RedSunRising]

It would be a great idea to start a PPW in Venezuela. That would totes bring socialism closer to fulfillment.

Your Friend,

The CIA

Are you saying that smashing capitalist states through armed struggle in order to put society on the communist road puts you in line with the CIA? Weird idea.

[red cat]

It would be a great idea to start a PPW in Venezuela. That would totes bring socialism closer to fulfillment.

Your Friend,

The CIA

Actually the results of a PPW against one of his biggest "communist" friends and cheerleaders have not been that unimpressive, you know.

EDIT: Mosfeld beat me to it :)

[RedSunRising]

It would be a great idea to start a PPW in Venezuela. That would totes bring socialism closer to fulfillment.

Your Friend,

The CIA

Translation= Its wrong to rebel.

Your friend,

"Social Democracy".

[black magick hustla]

Well its better than going on about "parasites" and "official anarchists" and "subterranian formation of conciousness" the way some people we know do, dont they malador? ;)
hey there are too many french people in the icc dont offend their jargon sensibilities

[RedSunRising]

hey there are too many french people in the icc dont offend their jargon sensibilities

For the record I have always hated video games and was never an anarchist, so the jargon sensibilities which are rather eccentric of French people who wear scarves should be respected but using basic terms like revisionist means you have brain damage? :rolleyes:

[Robocommie]

Man there are are a shitload of ultralefts in this thread. Of every flavor!

[black magick hustla]

For the record I have always hated video games and was never an anarchist, so the jargon sensibilities which are rather eccentric of French people who wear scarves should be respected but using basic terms like revisionist means you have brain damage? :rolleyes:
i dont know if the (wrong) stereotype of left communists being scarve wearing hipsters viz the more widespread stereotype of being old archaic longwinded 60s warriors is better but i am digging it.