I guess this is what they mean by trickle down

[RGacky3]

The rich spend much much much more on luxury goods (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/15/rich-luxury-spending-increasing_n_849806.html). Because they have a bunch more to spend, which I guess presumably gives to poor jobs as butlers and yact makers, and they they can go and spend much much more money on food and transport because basic living prices have gone way up too (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/15/cpi-march-2011_n_849640.html).

Who says free market policies don't stimulate the economy.

(the interesting thing is that these rise in prices don't actually have anything to do with inflation, its just plain old redistribution of wealth ... going up.)

[Bud Struggle]

Well you can't blame the rich for the soaring oil prices--that's all of those Middle Easterners causing all of that turmoil with their Revolutions. And the soaring food prices--that's people in countries like China and India with their newly earned wealth hiking up their standard of living and competing on the world market for more and better food. Housing costs are low which is bad for the construction business, but good for for people looking to buy and rent homes.

Inflation is low, consumer spending is up (wich means people have more money to spend) for the last nine months. The economy is on a decent recovery.

[danyboy27]

The rich spend much much much more on luxury goods (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/15/rich-luxury-spending-increasing_n_849806.html). Because they have a bunch more to spend, which I guess presumably gives to poor jobs as butlers and yact makers, and they they can go and spend much much more money on food and transport because basic living prices have gone way up too (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/15/cpi-march-2011_n_849640.html).

Who says free market policies don't stimulate the economy.

(the interesting thing is that these rise in prices don't actually have anything to do with inflation, its just plain old redistribution of wealth ... going up.)

The problem is, no matter how lavish the lifestyle a rich people can be, it will never generate much wealth, beccause there are a limit at what a person can spend. that why there are so many of the rich people money in wall street or risky investement, there is nowhere else to put it.

in order to stimulate the economy, those billionaire would have to consume truckload of groceries, clothing, furniture, Ipad, services etc etc.

and this is impossible, there is no billionaire out there that will be able to purchase for his personnal use 200 000 people worth of foods to stilulate the economy and compensate for the layoff made during the year.

no matter how hollywood are trying to sell us that image, there is a limit of luxury and good a human can absorb per year. and no matter how insane this person could be, there is no way he can single handedly fix the economy by consuming more.

[danyboy27]

Well you can't blame the rich for the soaring oil prices--that's all of those Middle Easterners causing all of that turmoil with their Revolutions. And the soaring food prices--that's people in countries like China and India with their newly earned wealth hiking up their standard of living and competing on the world market for more and better food. Housing costs are low which is bad for the construction business, but good for for people looking to buy and rent homes.

Inflation is low, consumer spending is up (wich means people have more money to spend) for the last nine months. The economy is on a decent recovery.

the recent rising oil cost is dirrectly linked to speculation, it have nothing to do with libya, its a verry tiny fraction of the oil extracted per year anyway.

[Bud Struggle]

the recent rising oil cost is dirrectly linked to speculation, it have nothing to do with libya, its a verry tiny fraction of the oil extracted per year anyway.

Right, but that kind of "Revolutionary activity" leads to speculation. Both the Revolutionaries and the speculators are at fault. As Donald Rumsfeld once said, "democracy isn't tidy."

Anway, these kind of problems aren't caused by just the Capitalist or just the Proletarians--thats why we all must work together to solve these issues that both sides contribute to.

We need to stop the warfare and start the cooperation!

[RGacky3]

No Bud, the revolutions don't CAUSE the speculators to drop the prices, infact prices of food and Oil have been going up for the last 4 or so years now, it has nothing to do with the revolutions, China and India are not the cause of the rising food prices at all, again, thats speculation and private farming profit motives, i.e. shutting down smaller farms and limiting production to keep prices high and prifits high.

Inflation is low, and consumer spending is low (unless your counting luxury goods), if you think the US economy is actually recovering your a fool, we have a double dip recession comming. But prices are still going higher, while wages are going down, meaning consumer spending will ultimately go down, which means eventually even the wealthies quick cash flow will run dry. The US economy is not at all recovering any more than a cancer patient on morphine is "recovering."

Its cute your trying to blame this on the revolutions though.

[Revolution starts with U]

That's absolutely bullshit. It was known long before any of those revolutions even had a hint of happening that gas prices were going to soar over the spring and summer.

[danyboy27]

Anway, these kind of problems aren't caused by just the Capitalist or just the Proletarians--thats why we all must work together to solve these issues that both sides contribute to.

We need to stop the warfare and start the cooperation!

sorry to say to you bud, but has long one side have both the carrot and the stick, its not gonna happen anytime soon.

the blame has to be put on those who hold power, that just common sense, beccause they are the one who are taking decision, they are the one sending factories to china, they are the one who run the show.

and please dont start blaming the common folks for not cleaning up the mess that the rulling class created.

[Bud Struggle]

sorry to say to you bud, but has long one side have both the carrot and the stick, its not gonna happen anytime soon.

the blame has to be put on those who hold power, that just common sense, beccause they are the one who are taking decision, they are the one sending factories to china, they are the one who run the show.

and please dont start blaming the common folks for not cleaning up the mess that the rulling class created.

Woah! Isn't it you Communists who say that it the PROLETARIAT that holds the REAL power? Isn't that what you say? All you have to do is just use what is rightfully yours--nothing more. If you want to take control--just do it. If that's what you want. But of course that isn't what you want, is it? Or else you would just do it.

And it's not about organization. The Proletariat could be organized in a heartbeat. American Idol, the marriage of that English prince. Billions of proletarians take part.

[#FF0000]

Woah! Isn't it you Communists who say that it the PROLETARIAT that holds the REAL power? Isn't that what you say?

Sorta kinda. The workers create literally everything. I guess in that sense, they do.


All you have to do is just use what is rightfully yours--nothing more. If you want to take control--just do it. If that's what you want. But of course that isn't what you want, is it? Or else you would just do it.

It's not like we're all a hive-mind or something v:mellow:v

[Bud Struggle]

It's not like we're all a hive-mind or something v:mellow:v

Or even a mind that knows what's best at all. It's the Proletariat that voted in the Tea Party. It's the Proletariat that watches Fox News. It's the Proletariat that follows Glenn Beck.

Your enemy isn't the rich--your enemy is the guy next door. That's the irony of the whole situation. Class warfare--it's a laugh. This is the Civil War--brother against brother.

[#FF0000]

Or even a mind that knows what's best at all. It's the Proletariat that voted in the Tea Party. It's the Proletariat that watches Fox News. It's the Proletariat that follows Glenn Beck.

That isn't really the case in my experience, actually.

Maybe once it was true, but lately, it's much less so.

'specially since the Tea Party are generally older college grads w/ businesses or in management positions, guy.

Regardless though you're right. The working class is weak right now and there's no denying it.

[Pretty Flaco]

It's not like we're all a hive-mind or something v:mellow:v

Hives don't split every 5 minutes. :p

[Revolution starts with U]

The richer you are, the more likely you are to vote: fact.
The poorer you are the less likely you are to vote: fact
Voting rates in the states (save Obama's election) are around 30-40%: fact.
It's disengenous at best to say the proletariat "voted in" anything. They may have not voted and allowed the tea party to win....
Why am I responding to this same old tired rhetoric AGAINT?! What is this, the 5m time you've said the same god damned exact thing Bud?

[Pretty Flaco]

A lot of people voted for the tea party because they're tired of the same old bullshit, but they don't realize that the tea party is the same old bullshit.

[Bud Struggle]

The richer you are, the more likely you are to vote: fact.
The poorer you are the less likely you are to vote: fact
Voting rates in the states (save Obama's election) are around 30-40%: fact.
It's disengenous at best to say the proletariat "voted in" anything. They may have not voted and allowed the tea party to win....
Why am I responding to this same old tired rhetoric AGAINT?! What is this, the 5m time you've said the same god damned exact thing Bud?

They might not vote--but they can. They can. And they's why there never will be a Revolution--because the Proletariat always has the power to begin with. That's the beauty of America. People can change anything. All they have to do is organize and vote. But they don't.

And there lies the darkness of what could have been.

[Revolution starts with U]

You're standing on pillar 300ft off the ground. About 10 yards to your left there is another piece of land that is not a death trap, just normal land... what you've wanted all your life. But you're not sure you can jump 10 feet. And there's a decent supply of peanuts to sustain you on this pillar.
Do you jump?

[Pretty Flaco]

You're standing on pillar 300ft off the ground. About 10 yards to your left there is another piece of land that is not a death trap, just normal land... what you've wanted all your life. But you're not sure you can jump 10 feet. And there's a decent supply of peanuts to sustain you on this pillar.
Do you jump?

I'm sorry... but that has to be one of the most ridiculous and unusual political metaphors I have ever seen. :p

and i could clear that jump. i've got hops

[Ele'ill]

You're standing on pillar 300ft off the ground. About 10 yards to your left there is another piece of land that is not a death trap, just normal land... what you've wanted all your life. But you're not sure you can jump 10 feet. And there's a decent supply of peanuts to sustain you on this pillar.
Do you jump?

And those peanuts where you're at are being taken away, five by five.

[#FF0000]

They might not vote--but they can. They can. And they's why there never will be a Revolution--because the Proletariat always has the power to begin with. That's the beauty of America. People can change anything. All they have to do is organize and vote. But they don't.

And there lies the darkness of what could have been.

I disagree. Ballots don't determine who has power. Property does.

[Bud Struggle]

I disagree. Ballots don't determine who has power. Property does.

Well I agree. That's the way the power's that be seemed to have moved things, to the disadvantage of you and to the advantage of me. It doesn't have to be that way, but that's the way it is--ultimately the power is ALWAYS in the hand of the voter. And that's why Revolution is really impossible in America--becuase why revolt when you could simply vote?

If people won't vote--they NEVER will revolt.

We are in checkmate. World with end, Amen. FF, become and Entrepreneaur and make a lot of money. There's nothing else to do.

[Pretty Flaco]

We are in checkmate. World with end, Amen. FF, become and Entrepreneaur and make a lot of money. There's nothing else to do.

I see you're quite the optimist.

200 years ago, most of europe still had monarchs. Industrial capitalism didn't exist in any sort of large scale. Who knows where the world will be in even 20 or 30 years?

[Bud Struggle]

I see you're quite the optimist.

200 years ago, most of europe still had monarchs. Industrial capitalism didn't exist in any sort of large scale. Who knows where the world will be in even 20 or 30 years?

Optimism is what people have before they have experience, cynicism is what they have after. :D

I agree, it could be Nazism reborn. We don't know. The best bet would be--much the same as now.

[Tim Finnegan]

Or even a mind that knows what's best at all. It's the Proletariat that voted in the Tea Party. It's the Proletariat that watches Fox News. It's the Proletariat that follows Glenn Beck.
Actually, that's largely the petty bourgeoisie. Ultra-nationalist populism tends to be characterised by a producerist, anti-worker ideology, and this is no exception.

[Bud Struggle]

Though I would say there is no group more anti-worker than workers.

Anyway--goodnight. :)

[JTB]

Well you can't blame the rich for the soaring oil prices--that's all of those Middle Easterners causing all of that turmoil with their Revolutions.

http://vigilantcitizen.com/latestnews/naming-names-your-real-government/


And the soaring food prices--that's people in countries like China and India with their newly earned wealth hiking up their standard of living and competing on the world market for more and better food.

Burning corn has nothing to do with it?


, consumer spending is up (wich means people have more money to spend)

Or simply that they're getting further into debt by extending their credit- something encouraged by artificially low interest rates and the guarantee that we'll bail out any banks that misinvest.

[JTB]

The richer you are, the more likely you are to vote: fact.
The poorer you are the less likely you are to vote: fact
Voting rates in the states (save Obama's election) are around 30-40%: fact.
It's disengenous at best to say the proletariat "voted in" anything. They may have not voted and allowed the tea party to win....
Why am I responding to this same old tired rhetoric AGAINT?! What is this, the 5m time you've said the same god damned exact thing Bud?
Seqoia, ES&S, Diebold...

'It doesn't matter who the people voted for, they always vote for us'

[JTB]

Optimism is what people have before they have experience, cynicism is what they have after. :D

I agree, it could be Nazism reborn. We don't know. The best bet would be--much the same as now.
Neo-Nazi fascists are already on the rise in Russia. They have the backing of the corporatists. The Antifa skinheads have had a number of violent clashes with them in the streets.

[danyboy27]

Woah! Isn't it you Communists who say that it the PROLETARIAT that holds the REAL power? Isn't that what you say? All you have to do is just use what is rightfully yours--nothing more. If you want to take control--just do it. If that's what you want. But of course that isn't what you want, is it? Or else you would just do it.
.
yea, blame the victim again, shit changed since the 1800s bud, the mean of control of the rulling class have multiplied since, its no longer that simple and easy to put pressure and change things, with the rise in technology and tactics, the mass media, the rise of the police state and the entertainement industries, making the working class aware and perpetrate action to bring real change is not really that simple bud, and you that damn well.


[QUOTE=Bud Struggle;2080348
And it's not about organization. The Proletariat could be organized in a heartbeat. American Idol, the marriage of that English prince. Billions of proletarians take part.[/QUOTE]
and who control those mass media? yea, the rulling class.
and beside, you dont really expect the whole working class to just all of the sudden, undo hundred of year of lies, misinformation, bullshit and conditioning in a heartbeat?

according to your logic the 6 millions jews who where killed during ww2 died beccause they didnt fight back.

Blaming the victim is a verry ugly game bud, i really dont like it, at all.

arnt you a buisnessman bud? What happened to this whole acceptation of the risk and responsabilities talk you used to talk about, cant you just accept for a minute that your class is fucking up really bad?

[RGacky3]

Woah! Isn't it you Communists who say that it the PROLETARIAT that holds the REAL power? Isn't that what you say? All you have to do is just use what is rightfully yours--nothing more. If you want to take control--just do it. If that's what you want. But of course that isn't what you want, is it? Or else you would just do it.

And it's not about organization. The Proletariat could be organized in a heartbeat. American Idol, the marriage of that English prince. Billions of proletarians take part.

Do you actually want to stick to that argument before I rip it up? I'm letting you back peddle first if you want, or do you really want to claim that?

BTW, why the fuck not, for once, talk about the actual OP, rather than setting up bullshit strawmen, or just don't post.

[Bud Struggle]

yea, blame the victim again, shit changed since the 1800s bud, the mean of control of the rulling class have multiplied since, its no longer that simple and easy to put pressure and change things, with the rise in technology and tactics, the mass media, the rise of the police state and the entertainement industries, making the working class aware and perpetrate action to bring real change is not really that simple bud, and you that damn well.



and who control those mass media? yea, the rulling class.
and beside, you dont really expect the whole working class to just all of the sudden, undo hundred of year of lies, misinformation, bullshit and conditioning in a heartbeat?

according to your logic the 6 millions jews who where killed during ww2 died beccause they didnt fight back.

Blaming the victim is a verry ugly game bud, i really dont like it, at all.

arnt you a buisnessman bud? What happened to this whole acceptation of the risk and responsabilities talk you used to talk about, cant you just accept for a minute that your class is fucking up really bad?

Listen. I don't blame the victim. Really. I don't blame anyone. Everyone is an adult. Everyone is capable of making their own decisions in life. As far as what goes on in the USA--as long as people have the ability to get an education and have the right to vote--their decisions is good with me. It's not my job to second guess them. There are places in the world not so lucky--and I side with the oppressed there. But in the USA--everything is there for the people to demand fairness. And if they don't take it? That's up to them.

I'm no bleeding heart liberal.

[Bud Struggle]

Neo-Nazi fascists are already on the rise in Russia. They have the backing of the corporatists. The Antifa skinheads have had a number of violent clashes with them in the streets.

They have the backing of the rank and file Prolerariat, too. And that's the problem of the Communists and Socialists for not getting their plan across well enough. In a lot of Europe Communism is all about infighting not Nazi fighting.

[#FF0000]

Listen. I don't blame the victim. Really. I don't blame anyone. Everyone is an adult. Everyone is capable of making their own decisions in life. As far as what goes on in the USA--as long as people have the ability to get an education and have the right to vote--their decisions is good with me. It's not my job to second guess them. There are places in the world not so lucky--and I side with the oppressed there. But in the USA--everything is there for the people to demand fairness. And if they don't take it? That's up to them.

I'm no bleeding heart liberal.

So what is so magical about the west where people are untouched by circumstance and hard work is justly rewarded?

[Bud Struggle]

So what is so magical about the west where people are untouched by circumstance and hard work is justly rewarded?

Nothing. But I have to say--if you Commies want your revolution you have got to go out and get it. Honestly, I think you derseve it X 1,000,000. I even think you might do an OK job of making it work if it happens. But I seriously think you lack the balls to actually do it.

Nothing personal against Communism. I just don't see that happening. I hope you prove me wrong.

[danyboy27]

Listen. I don't blame the victim. Really. I don't blame anyone. Everyone is an adult. Everyone is capable of making their own decisions in life. As far as what goes on in the USA--as long as people have the ability to get an education and have the right to vote--their decisions is good with me. It's not my job to second guess them. There are places in the world not so lucky--and I side with the oppressed there. But in the USA--everything is there for the people to demand fairness. And if they don't take it? That's up to them.

I'm no bleeding heart liberal.

it would make perfect sense if in the west we all had a good education, good parents, a good neighborhood, 3 meal a day and free from the mass media.

truth is bud, in the west we are not all born equal, i went to school with peoples who didnt had enough food to eat 3 times a day, some of them had drunk parents who lost everything when the meat factory closed down in town. our public school was ill equipped to help those kids, a lot of them didnt even finish their basic secondary education.

stop dreaming bud, we are not equal.

[Bud Struggle]

truth is bud, in the west we are not all born equal, i went to school with peoples who didnt had enough food to eat 3 times a day, some of them had drunk parents who lost everything when the meat factory closed down in town. our public school was ill equipped to help those kids, a lot of them didnt even finish their basic secondary education.

Me too. I did all of that. I saw all of that. I lived all of that. Pshaw!

There is a real difference between people in Somalia and people in Alabama. It's about time we stop pretending everyone has equal poverty and lack of resources, don't you think?

[#FF0000]

Nothing. But I have to say--if you Commies want your revolution you have got to go out and get it. Honestly, I think you derseve it X 1,000,000. I even think you might do an OK job of making it work if it happens. But I seriously think you lack the balls to actually do it.

Folks around here are active though. It's just not that easy :mellow: I mean, you don't really think it is, do you?

[Bud Struggle]

Folks around here are active though. It's just not that easy :mellow: I mean, you don't really think it is, do you?

It not easy at all. And I give you credit for what you do.

But to win a Revolution you have to believe enough to die for the cause. No heaven as a reward as in other systems--just you dead in the hope, the vague hope that something MIGHT be better someday fror other people.

I don't think you guys are there.

[Plagueround]

Well I agree. That's the way the power's that be seemed to have moved things, to the disadvantage of you and to the advantage of me. It doesn't have to be that way, but that's the way it is--ultimately the power is ALWAYS in the hand of the voter. And that's why Revolution is really impossible in America--becuase why revolt when you could simply vote?

If people won't vote--they NEVER will revolt.

We are in checkmate. World with end, Amen. FF, become and Entrepreneaur and make a lot of money. There's nothing else to do.

Many of the changes I've ever seen don't come about from voting so much as they do people pushing against whomever the elected officials were at the time. Those people getting knocked over by fire hoses, beaten, and attacked by police dogs in the 1960s weren't calmly making their way to any voting booths when that happened. Nor were the people making sure the bosses couldn't work us for 14 hours straight. Hell, for that matter tragedies like Kristallnacht influence change more than votes. Perhaps change of any sort won't come about for some time, but I doubt it will occur at any ballot boxes.

I myself...perhaps I'm more of a ghost dancer these days.

[Bud Struggle]

Many of the changes I've ever seen don't come about from voting so much as they do people pushing against whomever the elected officials were at the time. Those people getting knocked over by fire hoses, beaten, and attacked by police dogs in the 1960s weren't calmly making their way to any voting booths when that happened. Nor were the people making sure the bosses couldn't work us for 14 hours straight. Hell, for that matter tragedies like Kristallnacht influence change more than votes. Perhaps change of any sort won't come about for some time, but I doubt it will occur at any ballot boxes.

I myself...perhaps I'm more of a ghost dancer these days.

(Good to see you post!!!)

And yea. If that works do it. Voting is by far the EASIEST way to make change happen, but hell yea. There are no rules--make change any way you want.

But voting is really the surest and best way to make change. The problem with Communism is that they have a hard time selling their beliefs to the Proletariat.

[Plagueround]

(Good to see you post!!!)
The problem with Communism is that they have a hard time selling their beliefs to the Proletariat.

I blame taking very simple concepts and attempting to hammer them into people's head through obfuscation and academic drivel. I can certainly think of some people who will spend their lives in the halls of some ivory tower university and do very little to improve the lives of others...all the while thinking they've devoted their lives to the working class.

[JTB]

They have the backing of the rank and file Prolerariat, too. And that's the problem of the Communists and Socialists for not getting their plan across well enough. In a lot of Europe Communism is all about infighting not Nazi fighting.
Well... Stalin takes a lot of blame on that one. Is it any surprise, after the horrors of bureaucratic collectivism and the Stalinist regime, that people in Russia would react badly to Marxist language?

[JTB]

Nothing personal against Communism. I just don't see that happening.
Because you're not willing to work to make it happen? That's like saying 'I won't vote third party because a third party can never win'.

It's called a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[RGacky3]

Bud, if your not gonna discuss actual economics, or the effects of economic policy, fuck off, we've heard it all before from you, since you love making that same topic in every thread, just start your own thread so that we can have proper disucssions.

[RGacky3]

BTW Bud instead of shitting on people who actually care to try and make a difference why not discuss how you think the country could be a better place, i.e. not be a troll, or just leave.

[danyboy27]

There is a real difference between people in Somalia and people in Alabama. It's about time we stop pretending everyone has equal poverty and lack of resources, don't you think?

you could say that, and i guess you could also say house slaves had better material condition than field slave, does it change anything about the verry nature of slavery that some where better treated and fed than other? Hardly.

you cant stay neutral on this bud, do you think trickle down economics work, or not?

btw the answer: sometimes it does, sometimes it dosnt= no its dosnt work at all.

its like witchcraft, the argument that sometimes it ''work'' dont mean shit beccause of the luck factor, anybody with a penny could have performed has well.


so, tell me bud, does it work, or not?

[Mo212]

I see you're quite the optimist.

200 years ago, most of europe still had monarchs. Industrial capitalism didn't exist in any sort of large scale. Who knows where the world will be in even 20 or 30 years?

Slavery lasted 1000's of years... IMO the timeline for socialism was way off, human beings of this era can barely get organized to do much of anything at all if it doesn't involve their self interest. The poor are divided between being capitalist and being anti-capitalist even though they completely oppressed in toronto but they do as little as possible even though there are hundreds of thousands of them.

The real issue is people just aren't serious if they are fed and have enough free time to surf the internet/watch tv/etc. People seem to be willing to take it up the ass unless they are completely washed out homeless on an epic scale like in the great depression.