HRW: Gadaffi uses clusterbombs on residential area's

[Sasha]

Libya: Gaddafi forces 'using cluster bombs in Misrata'

Human Rights Watch say Gaddafi's army has fired the weapons, which cause massive damage and are banned in most states




Harriet Sherwood (http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/harrietsherwood) in Tripoli
guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/), Friday 15 April 2011 22.22 BST
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/4/15/1302902542427/Misraa-007.jpg

Heavy gunfire pockmarks houses in Misrata, Libya. Witnesses say Gaddafi's forces have fired cluster bombs into the city. Photograph: Phil Moore/AFP/Getty Images



Forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi have fired cluster bombs into residential areas of the besieged city of Misrata (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/23/libya-allied-air-strikes-misrata), according to witnesses.
Human Rights Watch (http://www.hrw.org/) reported that four cluster bombs exploded in the city on Thursday and Friday, and two Libyan residents of Misrata told the Guardian that they suspected the munitions were being used.
Cluster bombs, banned by most countries in the world, explode in midair, indiscriminately throwing out dozens of high-explosive bomblets which cause widespread damage and injuries over a large area. The submunitions often fail to explode on impact but detonate when stepped on or picked up.
The claims came as the leaders of US, Britain and France committed their countries to pursue military action until Colonel Gaddafi has been removed from power. In a joint letter (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/15/obama-sarkozy-cameron-libya), Barack Obama, David Cameron and Nicolas Sarkozy described the onslaught on Misrata a "medieval siege … to strangle its population into submission".
More than 100 government rockets were also fired on Misrata on Friday during a second day of heavy bombardment. Eight people were killed, according to rebels, who said government forces had reached the city's centre.
HRW condemned the use of cluster munitions, especially in residential areas. "They pose a huge risk to civilians, both during attacks, because of their indiscriminate nature, and afterward because of the still-dangerous unexploded duds scattered about," said Steve Goose, HRW's arms division director.
It said that, based on its examination of submunition found in Misrata, the bombs originated in Spain. "The cluster munition is a Spanish-produced MAT-120 120mm mortar projectile, which opens in mid-air and releases 21 submunitions over a wide area. Upon exploding on contact with an object, each submunition disintegrates into high-velocity fragments to attack people and releases a slug of molten metal to penetrate armored vehicles," it said in a statement.
The US secretary of state, Hillary Clinton, speaking after a meeting of Nato foreign ministers in Berlin, said she was not aware of the reports, but remarked, "I'm not surprised by anything that Colonel Gaddafi and his forces do."
She added: "That is worrying information. And it is one of the reasons the fight in Misrata is so difficult, because it's at close quarters, it's in amongst urban areas and it poses a lot of challenges to both Nato and to the opposition."
Mohamed, a rebel opposition spokesman in Misrata, told the Guardian by Skype that he had heard "one big explosion followed by many smaller ones. It sounds like cluster bombs".
He also reported seeing victims of what he called "candy bombs", describing them as "something that resembles a pretty bottle. You pick it up, it explodes and kills you."
Aiman Abushahma, a doctor at a Misrata hospital, said medics were seeing people with injuries consistent with cluster bombs. "We never saw these injuries before. We need experts to assess [the weaponry]," he said.
HRW said cluster bombs had fallen around 1km from the frontline in Misrata. It could not confirm whether civilians had been killed or injured by the munitions.
It quoted two Misrata ambulance drivers, who said they had witnessed cluster strikes on Wednesday and Thursday.
Ibrahim Abuwayfa saw an explosion in the air and "little flames" coming down at about 7pm on Wednesday. "One of the objects landed a few metres away on a residential wall and it exploded when it hit and then shrapnel flew out," he said.
Waleed Srayti said he saw a cluster munition strike at around 11am on Thursday. "I was in the streets behind the vegetable market," he said. "A big battle was going on in Tripoli Street at the vegetable market. I heard a noise and about nine or 10 things started popping out of the sky over the market. I just saw the pops in the air. I saw white smoke coming down."
Government spokesman Moussa Ibrahim denied that Libya was using cluster bombs. "We can never do this, morally, legally. We challenge them [HRW] to prove this. We know the international community is coming en masse to our country. We're not using them."
Libya has not signed the Convention on Cluster Munitions (http://www.clusterconvention.org/), which bans the use, production, stockpiling and transfer of cluster munitions, and requires states to destroy stockpiles.


source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/15/libya-cluster-bomb-misrata

[Sasha]

DZB-N1PLi_Q

[Hit The North]

This at least gives Gadaffi moral equivalence to the imperialists who (a) sold him the bombs in the first place, (b) themselves dropped mega-tons of them on Iraq, Lebanon*, Afghanistan and elsewhere (c) haven't even signed up to the ban themselves!**

* It is estimated that Israel dropped 4 million bomblets in the last three days of their 2006 "war" with Hezbollah.

**In fact, the USA's response to the Cluster Munition Coalition was to say that, rather than banning the weapon, they would improve the weapon instead, by working towards a 1% failure rate. They have absolutely no legitimate basis to moralise on Gadaffi's disgusting behaviour. He's an amateur in comparison.

[Sasha]

yes, does that excuse him for using them?

[Hit The North]

Of course not, I'm merely pointing out the rank hypocrisy of Hilary Clinton's position.

[stella2010]

Fuck hilary clinton.

[SacRedMan]

Hillary Clinton is ugly, even with her make-up.

[Sasha]

Hillary Clinton is ugly, even with her make-up.

And what has that to do with her position and policies?
Have an verbal for sexism.

[stella2010]

It means shes over….gone…adios…sayonara…had enough of Hilary Clinton. Shes a puppet, lets see some REAL leaders and not any more of these boring idiots.

Hilary Clinton is Ugly coz she is a rich *****. :lol:

[Sasha]

infraction for prejudiced language

[PhoenixAsh]

Does that excuse him form using them

not at all.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Cluster bombs, this is just stupid. How long will it be before a kid comes across one and accidentally sets one off that hadn't blown up when it was supposed to?

[chegitz guevara]

Is there any actual evidence aside from allegations? There should be unexploded bomblets lying around to photograph. Excuse me if I don't just believe anything they say.

[IndependentCitizen]

There was footage on the BBC off a Libyan picking up an exploded pod for the cluster bomb, with the clusters still inside. Anyone else seen it?

[Hit The North]

Is there any actual evidence aside from allegations? There should be unexploded bomblets lying around to photograph. Excuse me if I don't just believe anything they say.

Aljazeera interview with Human Rights Watch spokesperson (http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/04/201141591544963774.html)

[Threetune]

You all really don’t sound very confident about this latest alleged “atrocity”, and five days later it’s all gone quiet in the capitalist media.

It’s all reminiscent of past “atrocities” like the 20.000 bodies in streets of Budapest lie, after the fall of Ceausescu. The real figure was less than one 100! The capitalist media and suspect ‘NGO’s normally pass on these rumours with the disclaimer “we cannot verify these reports” while playing down real “atrocities” e.g. Yemen, Bahrain and Saudi all reported without the usual crocodile tears and pompous outrage.

They lied about the thousands shot and killed in Tianan Men in 1998 when no one was killed in the Square. And only about 400 dide (as only later admitted) and at least half of them State police and troops. What about the 70,000 shot in Timosoara in Rumania. Big lie! Kuwait in 1991”babies thrown out of incubators” big lie! “Cold-blooded massacre” by Serbs at Recak in 1998 big lie! Weapons of mass destruction” in Iraq, big lie! Gulf of Tonking to start attack on North Vietnam.

So exactly how many did this cluster bombs outrage kill? Please pass on the exact figure. You can always disclaim it later.

[RedStarOverChina]

Given how many lies have been told to us by the Western imperialists since the start of this war, I'd wait for further evidence.

It's hypocricy of the highest degree. The US is known to have used white phosphorus, a chemical weapon in Falujah.

[Gorilla]

I don't think you can buy clusterbombs other than from US companies, and they're certainly subject to export restrictions which required executive-level approval to bypass.

(EDIT: Nevermind, China and Russia sell them too. But still, where did Q get his?)

[Threetune]

Revision of my post above.
Chanel 4 7pm 'Newsnight' has just started a “war crimes” campaign about the cluster bombs. You can all join in again and help them.

[Luís Henrique]

You all really don’t sound very confident about this latest alleged “atrocity”,

That would be because "we" would care about evidence.

It is much easier to speak out of unabashed political dogma.

Luís Henrique

[Chimurenga.]

Maybe we can start a donation fund, along with Human Rights Watch, to buy Third World countries armies more "safe" weapons. :rolleyes:

A year or two ago, this was a non-issue and guess what, it still is.

[Crux]

You all really don’t sound very confident about this latest alleged “atrocity”, and five days later it’s all gone quiet in the capitalist media.

It’s all reminiscent of past “atrocities” like the 20.000 bodies in streets of Budapest lie, after the fall of Ceausescu. The real figure was less than one 100! The capitalist media and suspect ‘NGO’s normally pass on these rumours with the disclaimer “we cannot verify these reports” while playing down real “atrocities” e.g. Yemen, Bahrain and Saudi all reported without the usual crocodile tears and pompous outrage.

They lied about the thousands shot and killed in Tianan Men in 1998 when no one was killed in the Square. And only about 400 dide (as only later admitted) and at least half of them State police and troops. What about the 70,000 shot in Timosoara in Rumania. Big lie! Kuwait in 1991”babies thrown out of incubators” big lie! “Cold-blooded massacre” by Serbs at Recak in 1998 big lie! Weapons of mass destruction” in Iraq, big lie! Gulf of Tonking to start attack on North Vietnam.

So exactly how many did this cluster bombs outrage kill? Please pass on the exact figure. You can always disclaim it later.
Surely you are not suggesting you would be opposed to this if it is indeed what is happening? Assuming your answer is "no" it makes your line of argumentation is quite hollow. As for Tianmen it is good to see that you at least acknowledge that it happened. that you are wrong about the numbers is probably an isssue that should be discussed in another thread.

[Threetune]

That would be because "we" would care about evidence.

It is much easier to speak out of unabashed political dogma.

Luís Henrique

“evidence”? That never stops you lot passing on every bit of pro-imperialist propaganda you can dig up. Like the original post here, it’s the usual Guardian capitalist newspaper stitched together “evidence”. psycho posts this “Gadaffi uses clusterbombs on residential area's” headline and biased story to go with it ‘without comment’ in order to later claim some ‘objectivity’, when in fact the whole point is to pass-on the lurid story and like the Guardian, create the impression, that the Gadaffi army are uncivilised ‘war criminals’ deserving all they get at the hands of the imperialist backed ‘rebels’, like Sadam Husain’s army got earlier.

“evidence”? From this particular NGO, funded as it is by some of the most grotesquely rich capitalists on the planet and assorted top reactionaries? I wouldn’t like to come up before you on the bench in a law court.
So Judge Luis Henrique, let me put the question again that you avoided answering, exactly how many did this cluster bombs outrage kill? Please pass-on the exact figure.
You might also be able to tell us why you think psycho chose to ‘select’ this particular bit of “evidence” to post when he could equally as easily have ‘selected’ this:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/19/gaddafi-violence-exaggerated-british-group (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/19/gaddafi-violence-exaggerated-british-group)
or this:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/20/libya-rebels-us-military-equipment-non-lethal (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/20/libya-rebels-us-military-equipment-non-lethal)
All from the Guardian, pretending like you, to some scrupulous ‘objectivity’ when what is really going on is a well orchestrated campaign of disinformation by an army of imperialist state agents. A bit of “conspiracy theory perhaps? Well is it? The sneering gibe “conspiracy theorist” is used to get off the hook whenever attention is turned on the real allegiances of so called “objective” journalists and NGO’s, until the whole story can be told as in numerous books and memoirs.
They lied about 20.000 bodies in streets of Budapest, after the fall of Ceausescu.
They lied about the “thousands” shot and killed in Tianan Men Square
They lied about 70,000 shot in Timosoara in Rumania.
They lied about “Cold-blooded massacre” by Serbs at Recak in 1998
They lied about Gulf of Tonking incident to start attack on North Vietnam.
They lied about Weapons of mass destruction” in Iraq,
The whole imperialist journalism racket is a conspiracy to befuddle the working class and you blokes are helping them with your arrogant and pompous claims to objective “evidence” gathering. As if.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

The use of cluster bombs, especially in civilian, populated areas, is inexcusable, whether you are George W Bush, Olmert, or Gaddafi.

[Threetune]

Maybe we can start a donation fund, along with Human Rights Watch, to buy Third World countries armies more "safe" weapons. :rolleyes:

A year or two ago, this was a non-issue and guess what, it still is.

This defiantly is an issue.
It’s about the ‘left’ regurgitating capitalist propaganda under cover of left/liberal pretend concern for the working class and ‘truth and justice’ and even the dictatorship of the proletariat, when in fact they are, at best wide eyed gullible patronising idealists and at worst, conscious agents of imperialism.

I repeat, a bit of “conspiracy theory perhaps? Well is it? The sneering gibe “conspiracy theorist” is used to get off the hook whenever attention is turned on the real allegiances of so called “objective” journalists and NGO’s, until the whole story can be told as in numerous books and memoirs. It is getting over used and easier to see through.

[Threetune]

Surely you are not suggesting you would be opposed to this if it is indeed what is happening? Assuming your answer is "no" it makes your line of argumentation is quite hollow. As for Tianmen it is good to see that you at least acknowledge that it happened. that you are wrong about the numbers is probably an isssue that should be discussed in another thread.

Try and make sense.

[Threetune]

The use of cluster bombs, especially in civilian, populated areas, is inexcusable, whether you are George W Bush, Olmert, or Gaddafi.

The reactionary, royalist flag waving, ultra-capitalist, imperialist backed and racist ‘rebel’ leaders are cynically using the civilian populations to shield themselves from every kind of attack.
Why do they and their “IMPERIALIST HUMANITARIAN AID” big brothers not evacuate the civilians from the war zone which they created?
The “civilians in populated areas” that you talk about, did not ask to be held hostage by the ‘rebel’ bandits who started this abortive coup against the government. They are now the victims of rightist political reaction. The world is watching and learning.

[Blackscare]

The reactionary, royalist flag waving, ultra-capitalist, imperialist backed and racist ‘rebel’ leaders are cynically using the civilian populations to shield themselves from every kind of attack.


Speaking of regurgitating capitalist media talking points, I wonder if you think that Hezbollah and Hamas, as well as PFLP etc, are all "cynically using the populations as human shields" as well. I'm sure you hear this often enough coming from right-wingers. I mean, where are Hamas et al going to operate? The same for the rebels, whatever your opinion of them obviously they're going to be occupying and controlling cities, which is where they'll be attacked. It would be the exact same if this was happening to Qaddafi's cities. Would you then be crying about how Qaddafi was hiding behind civilians?

[Threetune]

Speaking of regurgitating capitalist media talking points, I wonder if you think that Hezbollah and Hamas, as well as PFLP etc, are all "cynically using the populations as human shields" as well. I'm sure you hear this often enough coming from right-wingers. I mean, where are Hamas et al going to operate? The same for the rebels, whatever your opinion of them obviously they're going to be occupying and controlling cities, which is where they'll be attacked. It would be the exact same if this was happening to Qaddafi's cities. Would you then be crying about how Qaddafi was hiding behind civilians?
Oh another fucking philosopher. You know dam well that the Palestinians did not start that long struggle against the invasion and robbery of their homeland. That is disgusting sly shit from you. Shame on you!
The responsibility for all of this Libya civil war mayhem is entirely with the coup starters who both idiot “leftists” and cynical rightists call “rebels”. They are now rapidly becoming one of the most reactionary fascist gangs on the planet thanks to the active and passive vocal support they got from people like you on this site and others.
When your fascist ‘rebs’ manage to get to the capital come and talk. Your speculation is a deliberate reactionary diversion.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Threetune did you join revleft just to defend Qaddafi because I haven't seen you do anything else really. It's starting to get really pathetic too with the line you're now using about them using civilian's as shields :sneaky:

[Chimurenga.]

The use of cluster bombs, especially in civilian, populated areas, is inexcusable, whether you are George W Bush, Olmert, or Gaddafi.

Maybe you can start funding the military arsenal of third world countries.


This defiantly is an issue.
It’s about the ‘left’ regurgitating capitalist propaganda under cover of left/liberal pretend concern for the working class and ‘truth and justice’ and even the dictatorship of the proletariat, when in fact they are, at best wide eyed gullible patronising idealists and at worst, conscious agents of imperialism.

I'm definitely not disagreeing here. This is a huge problem that the Left in the First World still hasn't been able to overcome.

However, what I said was a non-issue was the recent demonization of cluster bombs by the Liberals only when Gaddafi (or any leader of a third world country for that matter) started using them. This, of course, is overlooking the inevitability of collateral damage during war. First world chauvinism plays a part in this as well.

[Blackscare]

Oh another fucking philosopher. You know dam well that the Palestinians did not start that long struggle against the invasion and robbery of their homeland. That is disgusting sly shit from you. Shame on you!
The responsibility for all of this Libya civil war mayhem is entirely with the coup starters who both idiot “leftists” and cynical rightists call “rebels”. They are now rapidly becoming one of the most reactionary fascist gangs on the planet thanks to the active and passive vocal support they got from people like you on this site and others.
When your fascist ‘rebs’ manage to get to the capital come and talk. Your speculation is a deliberate reactionary diversion.

First off, I support the Libyan rebels about as much as I would support Reagan, which is to say that I don't. However, I do posses modest critical thinking abilities and would like for you to be consistent. If you're going to use a phrase like "cowardly using civilians as human shields" or however you put it, at least be consistent. I understand that you don't like one side, and I also really don't care.


Just be aware of the fact that these idiotic denouncements mean nothing, the Libyan rebels are just about as likely to stand out in the desert twiddling their shemps as the Palestinian resistance is. It'd be like calling the Red Army cowards for staying in Stalingrad while the Nazis layed siege.


Like it or not, wars are fought by people, over things that people want, where people live. This means that this force will hold that town, that force will try to take this town, etc etc, and loads of bloodshed ensue. Now, I know that you're absolutely desperate to defend Qaddafi, and if that's you're bag then fine, I really don't care about pursuing that. But be consistent and don't be a fucking dolt.



Honestly, you're going to blame the bombing of civilians of a city on the army that is trying to hold the city? It's fucking war, idiot, and besides they aren't the ones even bombing! What, do you expect the rebels to go out and defend a sand dune? Hey, welcome to the great republic of.... that big pile of rocksistan!

[psgchisolm]

This is turning into a Israel Plaestine debate.
Israel being Gaddafi
Palestine being the Rebels.


Some things I've heard about both sides.
Rebels hiding behind civilians
Civils rights abuse by Gaddafi
Defend Gaddafi Anti-imperialism BS(Defend reactionary Hamas)
Rebels are monarchist bs(israel r zionist)

Had this been an Israel thread I can assure you it would be all against Israel. but because a country isn't under the wing of America it gets a get out of war crimes free pass.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Maybe you can start funding the military arsenal of third world countries.
I don't understand your logic here. He says cluster bombs are bad so you tell him to fund the military arsenal of the third world.



I'm definitely not disagreeing here. This is a huge problem that the Left in the First World still hasn't been able to overcome.What is this huge problem?


However, what I said was a non-issue was the recent demonization of cluster bombs by the Liberals only when Gaddafi (or any leader of a third world country for that matter) started using them. This, of course, is overlooking the inevitability of collateral damage during war. First world chauvinism plays a part in this as well.
Whether liberals just now want to start to demonize cluster bombs or not for opportunistic reasons is not an issue for us leftists, a lot of us have been against them for years now. I've been against the use of cluster-bombs especially in populated areas since I first heard about their use in the Iraq war, so what am I supposed to say, liberals are condemning it so I have to be for it?

There will be collateral damage no doubt, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't criticize the use of some weapons. Are you against the use of depleted uranium ammunition? How about the use of nuclear weapons? Assuming you think we shouldn't use those weapons why should we use cluster bombs, especially in cities?

[The Vegan Marxist]

‎"If Gaddafi did use cluster bombs against anyone at all, I condemn it. The difference between me and the Nato lie machine is, I have a right to." - George Galloway

[chegitz guevara]

Aljazeera interview with Human Rights Watch spokesperson (http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/04/201141591544963774.html)

Thanks.

[Threetune]

What is the point of trusting any organisation supported by fat cat capitalists?
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2010/09/07/global-challenge

[Turinbaar]

What is the point of trusting any organisation supported by fat cat capitalists?
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2010/09/07/global-challenge

Does this mean human right's watch is not to be trusted when they claimed massacres of black migrant workers by rebel lynch mobs? Or does George Soros' money only count when funding anti-ghadaffi finds by HRW?

[timofey]

Human Rights Watch is, for the most part, an imperialist propaganda organ. I was highly, highly surprised they said anything at all about the anti-black pogroms being committed by rebel forces, but I suppose personal disgust of it all got to a few of them.

Notes on Human Rights Watch (http://www.variant.randomstate.org/21texts/HRW.html)
Hijacking Human Rights (http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/14804)
Who is Behind Human Rights Watch? (http://www.antiwar.com/rep/treanor1.html) Imperialist Wizard (http://www.left.ru/inter/2003/december/soros.html) George Soros, of course.

That they are now saying Gaddafi used cluster bombs is mostly ridiculous, considering the rebels and their NATO air force have repeatedly attacked civilian targets with death from above. The Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya has a right to defend itself from the forces of imperialism, internal and external, with whatever weapons are available.

This is a bizarre discussion indeed. I don't think any sane radical anti-capitalist opposes war because of civilian causalities. We oppose imperialist invasions outright, before it ever even gets to the issue of whether war is more 'legitimized' because it has fewer civilian casualties. In a similar vein, we don't condemn revolutionary struggles against the forces of reaction and imperialism because some innocent people happen to die.

I fail to see why, even if this is true, it should change my mind about Gaddafi.

[Threetune]

Does this mean human right's watch is not to be trusted when they claimed massacres of black migrant workers by rebel lynch mobs? Or does George Soros' money only count when funding anti-ghadaffi finds by HRW?

The naivety of some of you lot is gobsmacking. The average youth street gang in any city on the planet has a better grasp of real politics than you lot and your ‘classroom’ debating drival.

[Threetune]

Human Rights Watch is, for the most part, an imperialist propaganda organ. I was highly, highly surprised they said anything at all about the anti-black pogroms being committed by rebel forces, but I suppose personal disgust of it all got to a few of them.

Notes on Human Rights Watch (http://www.variant.randomstate.org/21texts/HRW.html)
Hijacking Human Rights (http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/14804)
Who is Behind Human Rights Watch? (http://www.antiwar.com/rep/treanor1.html) Imperialist Wizard (http://www.left.ru/inter/2003/december/soros.html) George Soros, of course.

That they are now saying Gaddafi used cluster bombs is mostly ridiculous, considering the rebels and their NATO air force have repeatedly attacked civilian targets with death from above. The Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya has a right to defend itself from the forces of imperialism, internal and external, with whatever weapons are available.

This is a bizarre discussion indeed. I don't think any sane radical anti-capitalist opposes war because of civilian causalities. We oppose imperialist invasions outright, before it ever even gets to the issue of whether war is more 'legitimized' because it has fewer civilian casualties. In a similar vein, we don't condemn revolutionary struggles against the forces of reaction and imperialism because some innocent people happen to die.

I fail to see why, even if this is true, it should change my mind about Gaddafi.


Exactly, no “conspiracy theory” needed about the skulduggery of imperialist agents among the press and NGO’s. The dogs in the street are barking it – but you can’t tell this shower of self regarding postures.

[Threetune]

The putrid stink of racist fascist gangsterism now coming off the anarchic idiot scum ‘rebels’ in Libya pleading on their bloody knees for imperial military support, is truly nauseating.

[agnixie]

The naivety of some of you lot is gobsmacking. The average youth street gang in any city on the planet has a better grasp of real politics than you lot and your ‘classroom’ debating drival.

Not unlike the naivete of defending a billionaire plutocrat as a great socialist anti-imperialist. If he was a socialist, his european fascist friends would be aware by now.


The putrid stink of racist fascist gangsterism now coming off the anarchic idiot scum ‘rebels’ in Libya pleading on their bloody knees for imperial military support, is truly nauseating.

Do you actually know the meaning of the word "fascism"?

[Marxach-Léinínach]

If he was a socialist, his european fascist friends would be aware by now.

You're aware that his European fascist "friends" are bombing his country right now and are thinking of putting ground troops in Libya with the intent of aiding the rebels overthrow the very guy that they're apparently "friends" with? :rolleyes:

[agnixie]

You're aware that his European fascist "friends" are bombing his country right now and are thinking of putting ground troops in Libya with the intent of aiding the rebels overthrow the very guy that they're apparently "friends" with? :rolleyes:

I'm not sure you even know what fascism is. Fascism isn't just countries with policies I don't like, it's not neoliberalism. The FPÖ is fascist, Jobbik is fascist, True Finn are proto-fascists. Conservative imperialism is not, in fact, all there is to fascism.

[Crux]

Try and make sense.
That you would aprove of Ghadaffi using cluster bombs against civilians.
At the very least you would excuse it.

[Crux]

You're aware that his European fascist "friends" are bombing his country right now and are thinking of putting ground troops in Libya with the intent of aiding the rebels overthrow the very guy that they're apparently "friends" with? :rolleyes:
Gives him a good reason to use all those weapons they sold him too. Imperialism intervened to stabilize the situation. Ghadaffi was their main go to man, the uprising kind of destroyed that so they need to find a replacement while building up their "democratic" credentials. Ghadaffi is an imperialist stooge, and that you wish to take the imperialist powers place in backing him is well...sad.

[Qayin]

Ah yes the good socialist gaddaffi with his third positionist policies and an anti-imperialist who realized the peaceful protestors back in Febuary were simply Western Agents and dealt with them accordingly with airstrikes. A MAN OF THE PEOPLE!!!

Arise ye workers from your slumbers
Arise ye prisoners of want....

[Sword and Shield]

Ah yes the good socialist gaddaffi with his third positionist policies and an anti-imperialist who realized the peaceful protestors back in Febuary were simply Western Agents and dealt with them accordingly with airstrikes. A MAN OF THE PEOPLE!!!

Arise ye workers from your slumbers
Arise ye prisoners of want....

Ah yes the good leftist AMKsurgency with his imperialist policies and a liberal who realized the Al-Qaeda and neoliberal agents back in February were simply peaceful protestors and dealt with them accordingly with airstrikes. A TRUE COMMUNIST!!!

[agnixie]

Ah yes the good leftist AMKsurgency with his imperialist policies and a liberal who realized the Al-Qaeda and neoliberal agents back in February were simply peaceful protestors and dealt with them accordingly with airstrikes. A TRUE COMMUNIST!!!

I find the part where it would be a cabal of neoliberal Al-Qaeda agents hilarious. Next up: Wahhabi Mossad agents team up with zombie Waffen SS.

[Sword and Shield]

I find the part where it would be a cabal of neoliberal Al-Qaeda agents hilarious.


Al-Qaeda and neoliberal agents

I hope you genuinely misread my statement and aren't just trolling me.

[Qayin]

Ah yes the good leftist AMKsurgency with his imperialist policies and a liberal who realized the Al-Qaeda and neoliberal agents back in February were simply peaceful protestors and dealt with them accordingly with airstrikes. A TRUE COMMUNIST!!!
You are really stupid. I'm guessing you have no contempt for any real socialist/humanist values just a weird dictatorial fetish like some Stalinists here have.
Lol Al-Qaeda.

[Sword and Shield]

You are really stupid. I'm guessing you have no contempt for any real socialist/humanist values just a weird dictatorial fetish like some Stalinists here have.
Lol Al-Qaeda.

Want to keep making ad-hominem attacks instead of real arguments? I'll oblige.

You are really stupid. I'm guessing you have no contempt for any real socialist/humanist values just a weird "liberty" fetish like some Western liberals here have.

[Threetune]

That you would aprove of Ghadaffi using cluster bombs against civilians.
At the very least you would excuse it.

Oh dear you’re in a pickle again. You make allegations with nothing to back them up. You must be so desperate to rescue some ‘left’ credibility, having backed the rebs only to discover that they are a totally reactionary pro-imperialist outfit.

You must be aware by now that Marxism-Leninism has no obligation to ‘support’ any movements, other than Marxism-Leninism, but is always obliged to expose and attack the main threat to humanity internationally, that is, chaotic and deadly imperialism, together with its apologists and goons in and around the working class. Just one turn of the capitalist roulette wheel in London or Washington will starve millions of poorer worker.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/apr/25/barclays-faces-commodity-protests?INTCMP=SRCH

"Financial speculation now accounts for more than two thirds of the market, and only about 30% is physical hedgers," he said. "The percentages have flipped in that period. When billions of dollars of capital is being put to work in small markets like this, it amplifies price rises and if financial flows amplify prices of food stuffs and energy, it's not like real estate and stocks – when food prices double, people starve."

The bourgeois nationalist Libyan government is no such threat to the working class internationally, and in as far as it’s an unstable and unreliable partner in some imperialist projects, it is, like the Iraqi government earlier or the Iranian government now, an obstacle and danger to imperialist plans for the region. Only an ignoramus or imperialist stooge would be caught siding with the rebs as you do.

[Qayin]

You are really stupid. I'm guessing you have no contempt for any real socialist/humanist values just a weird "liberty" fetish like some Western liberals here have. OK dude what sounds more humanist or socialist

A proletariat uprising against a military dictator who uses socialist rhetoric and is an anti-communist or rebels who were ORIGINALLY PEACEFUL PROTESTS UNTIL BOMBED BY GADDAFI now fighting for democracy. OR we can side with a fuckhead who would slaughter them all and sells lies to the people about drugs and al-qaeda being behind everything. Or does socialist today mean a fetish for the 20th century because thats what it seems like today a bunch of fucking theory and no action. Quick to denounce any uprising as a western plot.


Only an ignoramus or imperialist stooge would be caught siding with the rebs as you do.
Hi I see the world in black and white.

[Threetune]

Not unlike the naivete of defending a billionaire plutocrat as a great socialist anti-imperialist. If he was a socialist, his european fascist friends would be aware by now.


Do you actually know the meaning of the word "fascism"?

"Billionaire" he may be, "plutocrat" he may be, but in this fight with the combined might of the entire world of ‘billionaires’ and ‘plutocrats’ incalculably richer and incalculably more powerful than he is, with a more blood soaked track record that Gadaffy could aspire to if he lived a hundred lifetimes, all communists are for the humiliation and defeat of the bigger and more numerous ‘billionaires’ and ‘plutocrats’ and their reb goons in Libya who have sold themselves for a monarchist flag worthless US dollars and worthless promises to wage imperialist backed war on their own brothers and sisters.

[agnixie]

"Billionaire" he may be, "plutocrat" he may be, but in this fight with the combined might of the entire world of ‘billionaires’ and ‘plutocrats’ incalculably richer and incalculably more powerful than he is, with a more blood soaked track record that Gadaffy could aspire to if he lived a hundred lifetimes, all communists are for the humiliation and defeat of the bigger and more numerous ‘billionaires’ and ‘plutocrats’ and their reb goons in Libya who have sold themselves for a monarchist flag worthless US dollars and worthless promises to wage imperialist backed war on their own brothers and sisters.

I'm for the defeat of both.
For the revolution, against the war. Revolution which, as an aside, has more factions than you guys seem to wish it had.

[Sword and Shield]

I'm for the defeat of both.
For the revolution, against the war. Revolution which, as an aside, has more factions than you guys seem to wish it had.

I don't know about others, but I certainly agree that it has lots of factions. It's a diverse group of Al Qaeda fighters, pro-Western neoliberals, monarchists, and East Libyans unhappy with the redistribution of oil wealth under Gaddafi.

[PhoenixAsh]

The putrid stink of racist fascist gangsterism now coming off the anarchic idiot scum ‘rebels’ in Libya pleading on their bloody knees for imperial military support, is truly nauseating.

Fuck you!

Provide proof they are anarchists...or quit your sectarian shit fest starting rethorics.

[Sword and Shield]

Fuck you!

Provide proof they are anarchists...or quit your sectarian shit fest starting rethorics.

I doubt they are anarchists. However, it appears that a lot of the people here who support the rebels are anarchists (not all anarchists though, you being an obvious example).

Perhaps you should educate your fellow anarchists. xD

[Threetune]

I'm for the defeat of both.
For the revolution, against the war. Revolution which, as an aside, has more factions than you guys seem to wish it had.

Note how you skip away from the point at issue to hint that there may be some ‘progressive’ factions among the rebs who will save your blushes of embarrassment after having your misleading childish “anti-authority” anarchist ‘theories’ blown apart by the very “authoritarian” rebs who hang prisoners from balconies and hack off their heads.

There is nothing class conscious workers around the world would welcome more than the news that “factions” among the reactionary rebs have begun to see sense at last.

And how would we know that these (as yet) unidentified “factions” had seen sense?
Because they would be opposing the imperialist rape of Libya. They would be organising against the racist, monarchist rabble that opened the port of Benghazi to the plundering armies of ‘billionaires’ and ‘plutocrats’.

They would be calling for the Libyan national bourgeois revolution and Arab-world revolution to be pushed forward beyond the chocking confines bourgeois nationalism to the “authoritarian” dictatorship of the working class. That’s how we’d know that they’d seen sense.

So until you can find this “faction”, you will have to live with your embarrassment and the “authority” of imperialism and the “authority” of the reb “revolution” that you are “for”.

[agnixie]

I love avowed stalinists talking about things like authoritarianism. It warms my heart, deeply. And I'm also out of the thread, there was so much sectarian bullshit in the last page and a half that I might as well leave with a sectarian quip.

[Threetune]

I love avowed stalinists talking about things like authoritarianism. It warms my heart, deeply. And I'm also out of the thread, there was so much sectarian bullshit in the last page and a half that I might as well leave with a sectarian quip.

“avowed stalinist”? That’s not a sectarian quip it’s a pathetic ignorant and deliberate distortion of the positions I have been arguing, which are not “sectarian” at all. The anarchist ‘theory’ of revolution is daily being trounced by real events and that’s why you are really “out of this thread”, isn't it?

You can’t find any revolutionary communist “faction” among the Libyan rebs to justify your continued reactionary support for them, can you?

So run away and hide.

[agnixie]

“avowed stalinist”? That’s not a sectarian quip it’s a pathetic ignorant and deliberate distortion of the positions I have been arguing, which are not “sectarian” at all. The anarchist ‘theory’ of revolution is daily being trounced by real events and that’s why you are really “out of this thread”, isn't it?

You can’t find any revolutionary communist “faction” among the Libyan rebs to justify your continued reactionary support for them, can you?

So run away and hide.

You guys accused them of being anarchists as if it was an insult and you pretend you're in for the eye opening debate while posting link after link from far right conspirational sources about how Qaddafi was a great socialist (no, he was a third positionist fascist) leader to justify defending him in an anti-imperialist context.

You're hilarious.

There were such factions, I'm just not interested in the discussion anymore, you and I share one point in common over this matter: we are entirely powerless short of advocating and succeeding in a revolution at home, and then a revolution worldwide. Neither side's presentation to NATO is that, of course, they would replace Qaddafi with the guy with the closest ideology that can give them what he used to give them as a very happily willing puppet of the west.

Someone mentioned Haile Selassie, and yeah, that's basically it. The truth is that what started out as a bourgeois revolution with some proletarian factions involved has turned into an imperialist sideshow. I'm for NATO withdrawal, especially as reactionary regimes in Europe are planning to shore up support with that, but I don't have to pretend to like Qaddafi, which is what you bunch of idiots are trying to do with all these glowing pieces glorifying the libyan head of state. He's bourgeois scum, a plutocrat, a western puppet and as such his hands are as bloody as the others'. His place is the back against a wall. His opponents are accused of lynching african migrant workers, he's accused of using rape as a tool of control. And it's not like Libya is free of sanctioned racism, given the tendency to use berbers as scapegoats by state propaganda.

Do you see where I'm going or are you that unable to make a judgement without the sides being black and white? And with that rant, I am well and truly not paying attention to this thread anymore.

EDIT - Oh yeah, I also used "Stalinist" in what could be a derogatory context. I know. I don't believe in the moral high ground, especially when the other side (if there's even such a thing) is ignoring it.

[Threetune]

You guys accused them of being anarchists as if it was an insult and you pretend you're in for the eye opening debate while posting link after link from far right conspirational sources about how Qaddafi was a great socialist (no, he was a third positionist fascist) leader to justify defending him in an anti-imperialist context.

You're hilarious.

There were such factions, I'm just not interested in the discussion anymore, you and I share one point in common over this matter: we are entirely powerless short of advocating and succeeding in a revolution at home, and then a revolution worldwide. Neither side's presentation to NATO is that, of course, they would replace Qaddafi with the guy with the closest ideology that can give them what he used to give them as a very happily willing puppet of the west.

Someone mentioned Haile Selassie, and yeah, that's basically it. The truth is that what started out as a bourgeois revolution with some proletarian factions involved has turned into an imperialist sideshow. I'm for NATO withdrawal, especially as reactionary regimes in Europe are planning to shore up support with that, but I don't have to pretend to like Qaddafi, which is what you bunch of idiots are trying to do with all these glowing pieces glorifying the libyan head of state. He's bourgeois scum, a plutocrat, a western puppet and as such his hands are as bloody as the others'. His place is the back against a wall. His opponents are accused of lynching african migrant workers, he's accused of using rape as a tool of control. And it's not like Libya is free of sanctioned racism, given the tendency to use berbers as scapegoats by state propaganda.

Do you see where I'm going or are you that unable to make a judgement without the sides being black and white? And with that rant, I am well and truly not paying attention to this thread anymore.

EDIT - Oh yeah, I also used "Stalinist" in what could be a derogatory context. I know. I don't believe in the moral high ground, especially when the other side (if there's even such a thing) is ignoring it.

I can see you are upset, genuinely. But instead of throwing up a hotchpotch of random ideas and feelings that only look like evasions and diversions to cover a bad position, try concentrating on, and responding to, the important things in this struggle for correct revolutionary theory. 1) The economic crisis the capitalist system which is the course and fuel of all the revolutionary turmoil. 2) The class content of the various struggles and the political LEADERSHIP of the various combatants. 3) If you want to be taken seriously stop conveniently, opportunistically and falsely ascribing ‘straw man’ like, positions to people you are politicising about or against. It does you no credit.
Talk any time.