Are Democratic Socialists really socialist?

[eric922]

I've seen conflicting opinions on this forum on this topic, so I thought I'd just ask. Are groups like DSA, or The Socialist Party really socialist? Is Deomcratic Socialism a legitimate form of socialism?

[Manic Impressive]

In answer to the question in the title yes they are socialists if you use the correct definition of democratic socialist. Someone who advocates bringing about socialism using the existing representative democracy. However, social democrats often get confused and call themselves democratic socialists.

[Die Rote Fahne]

in answer to the question in the title yes they are socialists if you use the correct definition of democratic socialist. Someone who advocates bringing about socialism using the existing representative democracy. However, social democrats often get confused and call themselves democratic socialists.

this

[chegitz guevara]

Democratic socialism simply means using democratic means to bring about socialism. Those means could be reformist, via the ballot box, or revolutionary, by the masses rising up and seizing power. It simply means a commitment to democracy, as opposed to those groups which advocate the need for a dictatorship (not a class dictatorship, but rule by a small group of unaccountable people), which some groups, such as the PLP, have previously advocated.

DSA is not socialist. They are the left wing of the Democratic Party. Comrades can argue whether or not they are farther to the left than the CPUSA.

As to whether the SPUSA is socialist, depends on about whom in the party you are talking. A lot of us are, some aren't.

[graymouser]

In answer to the question in the title yes they are socialists if you use the correct definition of democratic socialist. Someone who advocates bringing about socialism using the existing representative democracy. However, social democrats often get confused and call themselves democratic socialists.
That's not really how it is, though.

Overwhelmingly in its history the term "democratic socialism" has been used as a synonym for social democracy. This is to play up the "democratic" aspect of their program. For instance, the Democratic Socialists of America are an entirely social democratic organization, and their use of the name really antedates its use by revolutionaries.

However, some revolutionary currents have used the term to describe their vision of socialism as being different from that practiced by the Stalinists in the USSR. One of the earlier and better examples of this is Hal Draper's essay "The Two Souls of Socialism" which attempts to coin a "revolutionary democratic socialism," and for various reasons Draper didn't exclude his brand of anti-Stalinist Leninism from this mix. Since Draper, other socialist currents have sometimes used "democratic socialism" to mean a revolutionary socialism that is accompanied by a strong belief in workers' democracy. The Trotskyist CWI has been one of the bigger groups to do this. Also some groups in the Socialist Party USA have declared themselves "revolutionary" on lines compatible with the term "democratic socialism."

I tend to be skeptical of the term, myself. I find it's of diminished use because its main meaning is social democracy and the secondary meaning is better covered by other terms.

[Manic Impressive]

I agree that my definition is overly simplistic about a hugely complicated definition which has different meanings to different people. I believe the explanation I gave is in keeping with the policy of the forum as to why democratic socialists are not restricted and why soc dems are.


I tend to be skeptical of the term, myself. I find it's of diminished use because its main meaning is social democracy and the secondary meaning is better covered by other terms.
I disagree that the terms mean the same unless you are talking about the of the values of social democratic parties a hundred years ago.
I'd be interested to know which terms you think better describe someone who advocates revolutionary change by gaining state power through representative democracy?

[graymouser]

I disagree that the terms mean the same unless you are talking about the of the values of social democratic parties a hundred years ago.
I'd be interested to know which terms you think better describe someone who advocates revolutionary change by gaining state power through representative democracy?
"Democratic socialism" for most people would probably raise images of Sweden or some similarly social democratic country. It is a minority of people who would associate it with revolutionary socialism without some clarification.

As for what you describe, the term I'd use is "impossibilist." This is basically how the World Socialist Movement sees revolutionary change occurring, and it's the term they chose to use. (This was a counterpoint to the "possibilists," who were the opportunists in the socialist movement of this period.)

[psgchisolm]

"Democratic socialism" for most people would probably raise images of Sweden or some similarly social democratic country. It is a minority of people who would associate it with revolutionary socialism without some clarification.Usually the same people who call the USSR communist. Which as we all know isn't true.


As for what you describe, the term I'd use is "impossibilist." This is basically how the World Socialist Movement sees revolutionary change occurring, and it's the term they chose to use. (This was a counterpoint to the "possibilists," who were the opportunists in the socialist movement of this period.)Why exactly do you think this?

[Manic Impressive]

"Democratic socialism" for most people would probably raise images of Sweden or some similarly social democratic country. It is a minority of people who would associate it with revolutionary socialism without some clarification.
I would say that this is a geographical difference as in places where social democratic parties are prominent there is a much greater knowledge about what they stand for. If you asked the average person in the street they may be able to name the party in their country which are social democrats but I would seriously doubt they would have heard of democratic socialists.


As for what you describe, the term I'd use is "impossibilist." This is basically how the World Socialist Movement sees revolutionary change occurring, and it's the term they chose to use. (This was a counterpoint to the "possibilists," who were the opportunists in the socialist movement of this period.)
Interesting, but it's certainly less widely used than democratic socialist.

[black magick hustla]

i think democratic socialism means the harder left elements of social democracy. some people refer as chavez as a democratic socialist. i was member of the youth faction of the dsa for like a year or two.

[graymouser]

Usually the same people who call the USSR communist. Which as we all know isn't true.
But the terminological ambiguity of "democratic socialism" is no less real just because people are not using their terms correctly. As long as the Democratic Socialists of America is the largest group claiming the title, we shouldn't stand too much upon it.


Why exactly do you think this?
Well, because that's what the first people who put forward this view called themselves. The precise view of the democratic revolution by electoral means was first put forward by the Socialist Party of Great Britain, part of the World Socialist Movement. It's also fairly similar to Deleonism, but that has a socialist industrial union component to its program as well.

Can you show me a widespread current other than the impossibilists who believe in what Manic described?

[psgchisolm]

But the terminological ambiguity of "democratic socialism" is no less real just because people are not using their terms correctly. As long as the Democratic Socialists of America is the largest group claiming the title, we shouldn't stand too much upon it.
Just as with the CPUSA? The majority of members are just glorified democrats, should we stand for them also? The group originally started as an actual socialist party. Their politics just moved a notch to the right like the rest of the US political system. They really should change their name to social democrats of america, but I guess they kept the name for tradition.


Can you show me a widespread current other than the impossibilists who believe in what Manic described?Can you show me one that says the different for communism? Most people in the US have the same form of thinking. When you say communism they think dictatorship, Soviet Union/China. Just because the public has an opinion on what they think something is doesn't mean that it's true. Calling China communist doesn't make it any less state capitalist or any more socialist.