Pros and Cons of the Black Bloc

[JTB]

I thought this fellow-worker (http://propertyistheft.wordpress.com/2011/04/10/the-pros-and-cons-of-the-black-bloc/) out the arguments quite well

[Ele'ill]

There's nothing wrong with the 'black bloc' as it's just an autonomous assembly.

The tactics used by individuals within the bloc need to be tactics and not just 'things you do at this point'- they actually have to have a purpose and each tactic's chances of success needs to be recognized by those carrying them out. It doesn't highlight the nature of autonomy to have people using tactics that don't work at the time they're used but shows a lack of critical conversation on the topic before and after- this is what causes stagnation although perhaps that's a little too harsh. I'm also speaking from experience in the States/Canada. I think there needs to be more dialogue within the US about goals and reaching them because I've seen a lot of stuff falling short because of the lack of critique.

I'm not going to critique the article but if you had points from it you wanted specifically talked about I'd gladly do it that way.

[PhoenixAsh]

Black blocks are a necessity...we are easy targets without them.

What individuals or specific groups do within the black blocks can be another matter and sometimes there is destruction for the sake of destruction instead of tactics, strategy and goal oriented propaganda (I use this word not with its negative connection).

It really does not matter what we do. as long as there is one person who does something....like shit on the side of the road....the media will immediately focus on that and make it appear like the whole demo was just about that and everybody in the demo was all of the sudden shitting on the side of the road.

I can not puty it more bluntly: we should not modify our behaviour for the media....they will never, ever be on our side. We should however modify our behaviour becausen and when it serves our purpose.

[Sadena Meti]

I've only seen two black bloc's in my time and they were both... well... pathetic.

The second was at a neo-Nazi rally. A bunch of kids (I knew who most of them were so I thought of them as kids as I was the old man in the group by 10 years, not the black bloc but another group) dressed in black with poor face coverings. Apparently they didn't know you could get very nice ones cheap at police supply stores. They rallied, they shouted, they chanted, they waved some flimsy banners (they couldn't use wood because of security concerns [weapons]).

The most productive thing they did was try and block a bus from leaving. They marched back and forth in front of it, but a cavalry charge put an end to that. They should have thought ahead and brought concentrated wolverine urine. Scares the shit out of horses.

Then they regrouped and went to protest at the neo-Nazi's hotel. Except it was the wrong hotel, though they stayed late into the night without seeing one, assuming they were hiding inside. They stormed in and pamphlet all the floors as well.


The first black bloc I saw was a long time ago and they got dispersed very quickly and spent a few days being individually chased by the police and arrested. Needless to say, not very effective.

[Sadena Meti]

What is needed is smaller groups of trained, very trained, operators with plans, timetables, contingencies, flowcharts, maps, etc. Then you could pull of something strategic at a protest.

It would do the black bloc much good to buy some books and videos and study police tactics from the other side.

[Ele'ill]

What is needed is smaller groups of trained, very trained, operators with plans, timetables, contingencies, flowcharts, maps, etc. Then you could pull of something strategic at a protest.

This happens all the time.


It would do the black bloc much good to buy some books and videos and study police tactics from the other side.

This is done as well.

[Ele'ill]

I've only seen two black bloc's in my time and they were both... well... pathetic.

The second was at a neo-Nazi rally. A bunch of kids (I knew who most of them were so I thought of them as kids as I was the old man in the group by 10 years, not the black bloc but another group) dressed in black with poor face coverings. Apparently they didn't know you could get very nice ones cheap at police supply stores. They rallied, they shouted, they chanted, they waved some flimsy banners (they couldn't use wood because of security concerns [weapons]). The most productive thing they did was try and block a bus from leaving. They marched back and forth in front of it, but a cavalry charge put an end to that. They should have thought ahead and brought concentrated wolverine urine. Scares the shit out of horses.

What did you expect, air support? It's a demonstration.




Then they regrouped and went to protest at the neo-Nazi's hotel. Except it was the wrong hotel, though they stayed late into the night without seeing one, assuming they were hiding inside. They stormed in and pamphlet all the floors as well.

Every group and individual has or will fuck up like this. It happens.



The first black bloc I saw was a long time ago and they got dispersed very quickly and spent a few days being individually chased by the police and arrested. Needless to say, not very effective.

Sort of like social justice activists of all backgrounds and beliefs being raided and detained before and after demonstrations and during times of apparent inactivity with no links to upcoming events at all. Like the activists who travel to a place of ongoing struggle and are there a day before being killed by paramilitary forces. 'Not very effective' is a deflection away from 'absurd levels of violence from the state'

[Sadena Meti]

What did you expect, air support? It's a demonstration.

The horses were known to be there. We had good intel on the police plans from a sympathetic police officer in another county (yes, a leftist cop).

We new about the two layers of fences, we knew about the 300 riot police, we knew about the pepper spray cannons, we knew about the horses.

We should have brought the wolverine urine.

[Paulappaul]

I think Black Bloc as a tactic is good, but is poorly implemented. At least in America. Socialists in other countries that form blocks, particular in Italy and in Greece, usually come in military formations with shields and weapons of their own. This shit scares the fuck out of cops. It's simple really. Have two people hold a long banner that covers the side lengths of the bloc, and on the length of people covering that banner have them holding shields. In the Front and back have just a long line of folks with shields. And behind everyone with sheilds have a line of people with long flags. So when the cops try to break you up, you have a tactical advantage because the length of the flags are greater then the length of police batons and can easily reach over riot cop shields. This form of black bloc is particulary useful when occupying or creating autonomous zones.

[human strike]

I've only seen two black bloc's in my time and they were both... well... pathetic.

The second was at a neo-Nazi rally. A bunch of kids (I knew who most of them were so I thought of them as kids as I was the old man in the group by 10 years, not the black bloc but another group) dressed in black with poor face coverings. Apparently they didn't know you could get very nice ones cheap at police supply stores. They rallied, they shouted, they chanted, they waved some flimsy banners (they couldn't use wood because of security concerns [weapons]).

The most productive thing they did was try and block a bus from leaving. They marched back and forth in front of it, but a cavalry charge put an end to that. They should have thought ahead and brought concentrated wolverine urine. Scares the shit out of horses.

Then they regrouped and went to protest at the neo-Nazi's hotel. Except it was the wrong hotel, though they stayed late into the night without seeing one, assuming they were hiding inside. They stormed in and pamphlet all the floors as well.


The first black bloc I saw was a long time ago and they got dispersed very quickly and spent a few days being individually chased by the police and arrested. Needless to say, not very effective.

I often hear criticism of black bloc from comrades in the US along these lines. Black bloc, like anything else, can be done poorly, I don't see how that is in anyway an argument against it generally since it can be done very well too. Just as Paul says above.

[JTB]

We should have brought the wolverine urine.
Now you know. Learn from past losses and use that information in future battles.

No fight is ever without its setbacks.

[Sadena Meti]

I wonder if they would have charged us with using a biological weapon? I mean, you can buy it at garden centers. Just draw a line in front of the horses and it would keep them back, if not make them wild and unseat their riders. Now THAT would be cool. But if THAT happened, they'd HAVE to find some way to charge you. Unlawful Scaring of Equines.

[Ele'ill]

It would likely be considered a passive weapon.

[Sadena Meti]

It would likely be considered a passive weapon.
The way I've seen things happen, and remember being in prison gives me access to a lot of convicted people, if you were to yell, scare a cop, cause him to fall and chip his tailbone, you'd get charged with assault. Probably beat it, but you never know.

[Ele'ill]

The way I've seen things happen, and remember being in prison gives me access to a lot of convicted people, if you were to yell, scare a cop, cause him to fall and chip his tailbone, you'd get charged with assault. Probably beat it, but you never know.

That's what I mean, it's a passive weapon or 'one that prevents arrest' or whatever and I'd imagine if the officers were to fall off their horses it would be viewed as a passive weapon causing an injury- assault as far as they're concerned. You could just soak the banners.

[Sadena Meti]

I often hear criticism of black bloc from comrades in the US along these lines. Black bloc, like anything else, can be done poorly, I don't see how that is in anyway an argument against it generally since it can be done very well too. Just as Paul says above.

I will point out these were two different black blocs 1900 miles apart separated by 7 years.

I guess my main advice to the black bloc, or at least my first advice, is spend $10 and buy a thin fireproof balaclava from a police supply store. You'll love it, and you'll look better.

My second advice would be to buy a surplus riot shield, costs about $30-$40. Paint it black, then stencil a red slogan on it. Make yourself look like an army.

I've got to put up a picture of my surplus riot shield ("Smash The State") and matching black riot helmet, which I was going to stencil with RevLeft.Com but now that I'm restricted...

[Ele'ill]

I will point out these were two different black blocs 1900 miles apart separated by 7 years.

I've had much different experiences.


I guess my main advice to the black bloc, or at least my first advice, is spend $10 and buy a thin fireproof balaclava from a police supply store. You'll love it, and you'll look better.

I don't think I've been in a bloc where there weren't people with them but it isn't a 'play dress up' event.



My second advice would be to buy a surplus riot shield, costs about $30-$40. Paint it black, then stencil a red slogan on it. Make yourself look like an army.

You wouldn't get far at most high profile events in the US.

[Sadena Meti]

I don't think I've been in a bloc where there weren't people with them but it isn't a 'play dress up' event.

Common appearance is a powerful thing. It anonymizes, it unifies, it is the power of the uniform. It shows cohesion. Think of a mob, and think of a mass. That has nothing to do with uniforms but I'm trying to draw an analogy to the way it feels.

Or, for a bit of hyperbole, watch the end of V for Vendetta (with the sub-woofer cranked for the explosions).

Also recommend going to Home Depot and buying banister rails and using those for banner / poster posts. Rounded with a flat side, very thick and strong, strong enough to support your weight if you fall down the stairs so pretty strong.

At one of the black blocs I was at, they had to use PVC piping because there was intel that the police would seize anything that could be used as a weapon. As if turned out that intel was bad. They only searched the Nazis (all 8 of them) and their supporters (all 12 of them) for weapons (walk-throughs, wands, and pat downs).

[JTB]

I wonder if they would have charged us with using a biological weapon? I mean, you can buy it at garden centers. Just draw a line in front of the horses and it would keep them back, if not make them wild and unseat their riders. Now THAT would be cool. But if THAT happened, they'd HAVE to find some way to charge you. Unlawful Scaring of Equines.
A man was put in prison as a terrorist for using gold as currency.

So yes, they would likely be called biological terrorists and disappear into the CIAs custody.

[Sadena Meti]

A man was put in prison as a terrorist for using gold as currency.


Yeah there was a law passed during the Great Depression that outlawed the use of gold as legal tender and also outlawing exporting it. This wasn't FDR, it was the president before him who I can not name. Hoover maybe?

[Sadena Meti]

You could just soak the banners.

Concentrated wolverine urine is powder. You sprinkle it around your plants to get rid of deer. Just FYI in case you have to deal with cavalry.

[Ele'ill]

Concentrated wolverine urine is powder. You sprinkle it around your plants to get rid of deer. Just FYI in case you have to deal with cavalry.

I'd rather not have seventeen panicked stampeding horses forced into the bloc anyways. I apologize for my lack of knowledge on the subject of wolverine urine manufacturing. The more you know.

[Sadena Meti]

I'd rather not have seventeen panicked stampeding horses forced into the bloc anyways.

Rip open the containers, pour a line across the street using extravagant amounts, and a little into the air, then retreat.

Now that I'm restricted, threads like this have become my DIY outlet.

[masty]

I think Black Bloc as a tactic is good, but is poorly implemented. At least in America. Socialists in other countries that form blocks, particular in Italy and in Greece, usually come in military formations with shields and weapons of their own. This shit scares the fuck out of cops. It's simple really. Have two people hold a long banner that covers the side lengths of the bloc, and on the length of people covering that banner have them holding shields. In the Front and back have just a long line of folks with shields. And behind everyone with sheilds have a line of people with long flags. So when the cops try to break you up, you have a tactical advantage because the length of the flags are greater then the length of police batons and can easily reach over riot cop shields. This form of black bloc is particulary useful when occupying or creating autonomous zones.
Or when storming Persepolis and driving that worthless Persian runt Darius all the way to the Hindu Kush.

[Ele'ill]

Rip open the containers, pour a line across the street using extravagant amounts, and a little into the air, then retreat.

That sounds like a lot of time and work for the speed the horses would blow right through that at (panicking or not)

[Sadena Meti]

The Turtle Formation. I once saw a picture of protesters doing this with clear shields.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2602/3970769883_bfaf89ef19.jpg

[Sadena Meti]

That sounds like a lot of time and work for the speed the horses would blow right through that at (panicking or not)

The incident was on YouTube. Maybe I'll find it and you can judge if you think it would have worked.

[Lt. Ferret]

the existence of the black bloc shows the merciful nature of the state. useless and irrelevent as meaningful protest.

[masty]

the existence of the black bloc shows the merciful nature of the state. useless and irrelevent as meaningful protest.
http://sketchythoughts.blogspot.com/2010/08/following-is-note-from-j.html

[Viet Minh]

The protests against the Royal Wedding in London will include a guilotine (purely decorative) its symbolic but I think it gives the wrong impressions of anarchism. Anarchists do not necessarily support Capital punishment, the revolution does not necessarily have to be like the Russian or French revolutions. These things do not bring the majority of the working class to the leftist cause.

[bcbm]

I've only seen two black bloc's in my time and they were both... well... pathetic.

The second was at a neo-Nazi rally. A bunch of kids (I knew who most of them were so I thought of them as kids as I was the old man in the group by 10 years, not the black bloc but another group) dressed in black with poor face coverings. Apparently they didn't know you could get very nice ones cheap at police supply stores. They rallied, they shouted, they chanted, they waved some flimsy banners (they couldn't use wood because of security concerns [weapons]).

The most productive thing they did was try and block a bus from leaving. They marched back and forth in front of it, but a cavalry charge put an end to that. They should have thought ahead and brought concentrated wolverine urine. Scares the shit out of horses.

the black bloc in this case was pretty small (i recall around 20ish people, mostly younger and didn't know each other before the meet-up) and by the time the nazi bus was leaving a couple had been arrested and a lot had gotten out of bloc and left the area because of confrontations with the cops, leaving a pretty small group of people to deal with a lot of tooled up cops. there are a lot of things that could have been done differently by that bloc, i agree, but even with shields (would've been a real logistics pain in the ass) and... ....wolverine... urine... i don't think things would have gone down much differently- a line of riot cops can do the job as effectively as horses with enough mace and clubs. i think the blocking of the bus before the rally started was the missed opportunity, but not going to say much more about that beyond that...


What is needed is smaller groups of trained, very trained, operators with plans, timetables, contingencies, flowcharts, maps, etc. Then you could pull of something strategic at a protest.the bloc there evidenced some of these things by having people watching key intersections who were in contact with a main, hidden group to try and block the nazis from getting there



Then they regrouped and went to protest at the neo-Nazi's hotel. Except it was the wrong hotel, though they stayed late into the night without seeing one, assuming they were hiding inside. They stormed in and pamphlet all the floors as well.i'd heard some nazis came outside of that hotel during the protest?

[Sadena Meti]

i'd heard some nazis came outside of that hotel during the protest?

I heard this too, from some of the black bloc, other members said they didn't. Sounds like a lie to make them seem less foolish.

[Ele'ill]

The protests against the Royal Wedding in London will include a guilotine (purely decorative) its symbolic but I think it gives the wrong impressions of anarchism. Anarchists do not necessarily support Capital punishment, the revolution does not necessarily have to be like the Russian or French revolutions.

I don't think this represents capital punishment any more than the burning effigies of US Soldiers.




These things do not bring the majority of the working class to the leftist cause.

What are 'these things'?

[Viet Minh]

I don't think this represents capital punishment any more than the burning effigies of US Soldiers.

Then what does the guillotine represent? The guy making it was very clear, even if he did not directly advocate cutting off the heads of the royal family. Regardless to 99 out of 100 people the guillotine in this context represents violent and bloody revolution. Is that what anarchism is about? Beheading people?



What are 'these things'?


Guillotines

[Ele'ill]

Then what does the guillotine represent?

The forceful removal of.


The guy making it was very clear, even if he did not directly advocate cutting off the heads of the royal family.

So then you could say he was very clear- wasn't literally referring to the cutting off the heads of the royal family and that sort of leaves it with exactly what I said- It's militant symbolism.


Regardless to 99 out of 100 people the guillotine in this context represents violent and bloody revolution.

Source?


Is that what anarchism is about? Beheading people?

Not just anarchism but any genuine revolutionary movement will run the great chance (that I think rather inevitable) of coming into violent conflict of some sort.




Guillotines

It's a demonstration- I can't think of a clearer way to represent 'not wanted'.

[Euronymous]

Honestly in Seattle, Black Blocs are very prevalent. There is one almost every few months, but they are VERY poorly implemented. No strategy, no communication, nada. Most of the anarchists who are in these black blocs seem to just want to dress in black and break shit. Doesn't bring a whole lot of support to the leftist cause if you break a few windows. That'll show those corporate bastards!

[Viet Minh]

The forceful removal of.

No kidding! :lol:



So then you could say he was very clear- wasn't literally referring to the cutting off the heads of the royal family and that sort of leaves it with exactly what I said- It's militant symbolism.


But the public don't necessarily get that, and I doubt the bourgeous media will enlighten them.



Source?


I don't know of any studies done but the wikipedia page about the guillotine gives a sizeable proportion to the French Revolution and the reign of terror. Also in Europe the French revolution is fairly standard knowledge from history lessons.



Not just anarchism but any genuine revolutionary movement will run the great chance (that I think rather inevitable) of coming into violent conflict of some sort.

Yes but its not like anyone wants a violent and bloody civil war, its the last resort. And after the revolution are we planning on another red terror? Because I don't think many people will support that, so even if the revolution is succesful there will likely be a counter-revolution.


It's a demonstration- I can't think of a clearer way to represent 'not wanted'.

But do we really want to go with beheadings? They seem almost medieval now, maybe lethal injection or gas chamber is the way to go.. :rolleyes:

[Viet Minh]

Honestly in Seattle, Black Blocs are very prevalent. There is one almost every few months, but they are VERY poorly implemented. No strategy, no communication, nada. Most of the anarchists who are in these black blocs seem to just want to dress in black and break shit. Doesn't bring a whole lot of support to the leftist cause if you break a few windows. That'll show those corporate bastards!

It does if you do it right, the protests recently were against the banks specifically, but the black bloc were breaking any shop front they could find. I don't blame them they're all part of the capitalist system but they need to focus on the issue at hand. And its not as though they're doing any real damage anyway, the money just comes from some massive insurance company or the workers' wages. But the point is they can make an impression, and highlight leftist issues but if they just destroy shit randomly then the media just call them thugs and vandals and nobody pays attention.

[Ele'ill]

Honestly in Seattle, Black Blocs are very prevalent. There is one almost every few months, but they are VERY poorly implemented. No strategy, no communication, nada. Most of the anarchists who are in these black blocs seem to just want to dress in black and break shit. Doesn't bring a whole lot of support to the leftist cause if you break a few windows. That'll show those corporate bastards!

Honestly you're misinformed. They're spontaneous or short notice autonomous assemblies that make a lot of noise. A lot of people walking or driving past stop to ask what's going on or stop to pick up flyers and talk. The community IS talking about it- mainly having to do with the militant presence of brave souls making noise on issues that otherwise would be a headline for a day. They are frequent because police violence is frequent.

_c7KB2O-Av8


http://www.mefeedia.com/watch/30430007

[synthesis]

I looked up "concentrated wolverine urine" on Google and this thread was the first result.

[Sadena Meti]

i looked up "concentrated wolverine urine" on google and this thread was the first result.

result!