Democracy

[Desert Fox]

Well when I look at my own country I have started to wonder. What has democracy given my country. A bunch of useless political figures that debate for every thing. My country would be better off with one strong figure that lead the people since the people are far too dumb to lead ;)

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by Desert [email protected] 24 2003, 06:29 PM
Well when I look at my own country I have started to wonder. What has democracy given my country. A bunch of useless political figures that debate for every thing. My country would be better off with one strong figure that lead the people since the people are far too dumb to lead ;)
Yep you are a natural politician, stupid, patronising, usless, condesending, ignorant, argumentative, ignoarant and beuracratic.

Ideal politician material. If you dont become presedent or at least a major cabenit minister, they is something wrong with America.

[Funky Monk]

To be honest, im not quite sure if democracy is the way forward, call me elitist if you want but i think you should have to pass an intelligence test before being allowed to vote.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by Funky [email protected] 24 2003, 07:45 PM
To be honest, im not quite sure if democracy is the way forward, call me elitist if you want but i think you should have to pass an intelligence test before being allowed to vote.
elitist...
(j/k)

But are you serious? An IQ test? You support leading people in a revoltion to kill the capitalists ETC, but you dont recon once they have faught and died for your cause they should be able to vote if they just happen to be thick?

[Funky Monk]

Yes, the government should be run for the people, not necessarily by the people. I think a system where only those of a certain degree of intelligence could vote would produce a government who would act in teh best interests of all the populace.

Plus it would vastly decrese the power of most facist parties.

[Vinny Rafarino]

So, what kind of dictator would you prefer DF?

[Hampton]

One that can dance!

[Desert Fox]

Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 25 2003, 02:26 PM
So, what kind of dictator would you prefer DF?
Age : 40 < x < 60
Race: white - black
Political Opinion: left - right
IQ: 120 < x < 200

Well at least a dicatator with exp. and a clear state of mind. A smart man but not too smart so the common people can understand him too. And like FM said a IQ test for people that want to vote is in order.

Enigma, I do hope I succeed in politics, since that is my aim. Not in America since I don&#39;t want to fly so many kms just to debate. But I hope to clean the mess that people call politics in belgium ;)

[Exploited Class]

A bunch of useless political figures that debate for every thing. My country would be better off with one strong figure that lead the people since the people are far too dumb to lead

I think that is a double edge sword. First before getting into that, the people don&#39;t lead, they elect one of two people to lead for them, at least on a national and many local and state levels. The people don&#39;t directly vote on anything. Perhaps that the useless political figures, which I disagree with and don&#39;t believe them to be useless they just happen to be useless to me, have helped in making the general public dumb. Afterall, they do control budgets to public schools, there is little incentive for the ruling class to have an educated lower class. In fact it benefits them to have a less intelligent lower class.

As far as direct democracy, I don&#39;t know if it would be a good idea or bad. Perhaps if it happened people would feel more apart of the system and take a more active intrest in what is happening when they voted on everything. I am afraid however that we would get really strange laws passed, like a law restricting the freedom to burn a symbol of freedom out of protest. I also don&#39;t know if it is really feasible to think that average people doing 40 hours of work a week is going to have enough time to vote and research on everything that comes up. Budgets, laws, civil and foreign policies and on and on and on... I think you get the point.

As far as some people suggesting IQ tests to vote. I would hate to see that test or that law passed. Not allowing a group of people to vote has been a very powerful controlling tool in most countries. To not allow black people or women to vote had the ability to remove them from the public interface and make them essentially a voiceless second class citizen. I don&#39;t think it right to go backwards in progress and say "Well you are considered dumb, and here we don&#39;t allow unintelligent people to have any say in this country." Effectively cutting off and segregating a portion of the country. If we said, "We just don&#39;t want the dumb agenda" in our country, we could likewise just say "we don&#39;t want the black agenda or female agenda in our country". The minute you find fault with one part of your nation you can find fault in all and find a reason to excommunicate them from direct participation.

And where would you draw the line on this test? You may say, "I don&#39;t want people dumber than myself to vote." Well I think it would be sad if Einstien said the samething and didn&#39;t want people lesser in intelligence of himself to vote. We are all less intelligent than somebody else, somebody that scores higher than you on an IQ test is going to be effected by your vote, and they are going to effect a person more intelligent than themselves with their vote, and so on and so forth.

I wouldn&#39;t want a country ran by just pure logic, I like a little passion, a little compasion and a little guilt here and there. And those are not IQ represenative emotions.

[YKTMX]

Parliamentary democracy or "representative" democracy like we have in the west is horrible obviously but democracy as an idea in it&#39;s purest form is something I would support and is central to socialism.

[sc4r]

Originally posted by Funky [email protected] 25 2003, 01:14 PM
Yes, the government should be run for the people, not necessarily by the people. I think a system where only those of a certain degree of intelligence could vote would produce a government who would act in teh best interests of all the populace.

Plus it would vastly decrese the power of most facist parties.
LOL. With all due respect what you have more or less described actually is Fascism.

You think Fascism means discrimnating against jews (or perhaps some other ethnic minority) and peobably killing them dont you? It does not. It essrntially means state discrimination against anybody.

You might have an especially benevolent version of Fascism in mind; but it is still fascism.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Originally posted by Funky [email protected] 24 2003, 06:45 PM
To be honest, im not quite sure if democracy is the way forward, call me elitist if you want but i think you should have to pass an intelligence test before being allowed to vote.
The use of voting is that everyone can stand up for his rights. By taking a sort of "exams" before you&#39;re allowed to vote, you&#39;re excluding a whole of people. These people and their needs will be then ignored. I am sure that that isn&#39;t the meaning of democracy.

[Hawker]

Well my opinon is that democracy doesn&#39;t work.You see democracy was only meant to rule a city-state.It wasn&#39;t meant to run an entire country.You see in ancient Greece there was only city-states(Duh) and it was the Athenians who invented democracy(Duh).You see by living in a city-state,it meant that everybody had rights to vote and everyone&#39;s opinion held dearly,unlike when you have a country where you have to go to province/state to province/state and get representatives to represent the people there and the representative is always screwing up and acting on his own,not by the people.So you see the only real stable governments I&#39;m afraid,are monarchy,despotism(Dictatorship),and maybe an oilgarchy.Not a Republic government also because it was just like Democracy,only meant to rule a city.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Who led you to believe that? You need to sack those kats straight away.


Athenian democracy had no relation to the size of the city-states in which it was used for;

Our constitution does not copy the laws of neighboring states; we are rather a pattern to others than imitators ourselves. Its administration favors the many instead of the few; this is why it is called a democracy. If we look to the laws, they afford equal justice to all in their private differences; if to social standing, advancement in public life falls to reputation for capacity, class considerations not being allowed to interfere with merit; nor again does poverty bar the way, if a man is able to serve the state, he is not hindered by the obscurity of his condition. The freedom which we enjoy in our government extends also to our ordinary life. There, far from exercising a jealous surveillance over each other, we do not feel called upon to be angry with our neighbor for doing what he likes, or even to indulge in those injurious looks which cannot fail to be offensive, although they inflict no positive penalty. But all this ease in our private relations does not make us lawless as citizens. . . . Our public men have, besides politics, their private affairs to attend to, and our ordinary citizens, though occupied with the pursuits of industry, are still fair judges of public matters; for, unlike any other nation, regarding him who takes no part in these duties not as unambitious but as useless, we Athenians are able to judge at all events if we cannot originate, and instead of looking on discussion as a stumbling-block in the way of action, we think it an indispensable preliminary to any wise action at all. . . .

In short, I say that as a city we are the school of Hellas; while I doubt if the world can produce a man, who where he has only himself to depend upon, is equal to so many emergencies, and graced by so happy a versatility as the Athenian.

Thucydides, The Peloponnesian War



It was a simple political ideology of social and economical government. To say that it&#39;s only "relevant" on a micro scale would be refuting all basic logic of government.

[Funky Monk]

I know is bordering facism.....

What&#39;s your point?

I dont really give a damn if not everybody can vote if their interests are served by the state.
PLUS there are plenty of ways in which someone can exercise &#39;democratic&#39; rights without having to vote.



I know this system requires a very benevolant executive which many believe can not be found but i think it can be acchieved and would be desirable.

[Desert Fox]

Well excluding dumb people is not a bad thing really. Well people with a IQ less then 120 are really not that bright and should you people as intelligent beings you are want that your vote gets as much credit as a moron that doesn&#39;t know the diff between a left winger and a right winger. I am not talking about excluding women or black people. Just excluding people that are too dumb to be a valuable person to the political system.

[Pete]

Greek city states only ruling a city? Greek city states democratic? What the hell are you on and who taught you that?

Athens had democracy for the slave owners and wealthy families who had a long history in the city. Spartan democracy was that of the soldier who could scream the loudest.

Athens was an empire. They controlled the Delian League and forced its memebers to do its biddings. Before that they controlled most of Attica.

Seriously.... Greece did not have democracy, they had a pipe dream like us.

[Hawker]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2003, 04:55 PM
Greek city states only ruling a city? Greek city states democratic? What the hell are you on and who taught you that?

Athens had democracy for the slave owners and wealthy families who had a long history in the city. Spartan democracy was that of the soldier who could scream the loudest.

Athens was an empire. They controlled the Delian League and forced its memebers to do its biddings. Before that they controlled most of Attica.

Seriously.... Greece did not have democracy, they had a pipe dream like us.
Yes the Greeks were City-states and had a democracy.Although the Athenians did rule the Delian League with an Iron Fist they still had a democratic society in Athens and unlike Modern democracy,they had steered to a Plutocracy only a little bit.And the Spartans had a Dictatorship.

[CubanFox]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2003, 02:45 PM
One that can dance&#33;
Do the Fuhrer...doo doo dee doo...do the Fuhrer...
http://mrfluffy.overkill-lan.com.au/hitlartime.gif

[Unrelenting Steve]

Originally posted by Funky [email protected] 24 2003, 05:45 PM
To be honest, im not quite sure if democracy is the way forward, call me elitist if you want but i think you should have to pass an intelligence test before being allowed to vote.
Perhaps the oppisite, clever people will use their vote to their own interest more effectivley than stupid ones, but only then in a political context where decite is non existant. But the motive behind poeple&#39;s vote is most improtant. People vote for self interest, their own advancement even at the dissadvantage of others- it is this facet of voting that will plague a democratic sociaty forever.

[Funky Monk]

All people vote for self-interest but it is expected that more intelligent people are less susceptable to party propaganda and simplistic policies.


Look at the BNP, most people who support them are not intelligent and belive their propaganda that Asians are the root of all evil. Most intellectuals understand that this is a load of shit and therefore dont vote for them.
There is a fundamental problem that people are selfish but i think a technique of indoctrination from a young age could instill a more self-less attitude in people.

[Exploited Class]

Desert Fox, with sentence structure like this,


Well people with a IQ less then 120 are really not that bright and should you people as intelligent beings you are want that your vote gets as much credit as a moron that doesn&#39;t know the diff between a left winger and a right winger.

You better switch gears on what side of the discussion you want to agree with. Don&#39;t agree with an idea that would take you out of the ability to participate in democracy. I am more than positive, after reading that, you aren&#39;t even batting in the 100&#39;s.

[Desert Fox]

Originally posted by Exploited [email protected] 27 2003, 12:28 PM
Desert Fox, with sentence structure like this,


Well people with a IQ less then 120 are really not that bright and should you people as intelligent beings you are want that your vote gets as much credit as a moron that doesn&#39;t know the diff between a left winger and a right winger.

You better switch gears on what side of the discussion you want to agree with. Don&#39;t agree with an idea that would take you out of the ability to participate in democracy. I am more than positive, after reading that, you aren&#39;t even batting in the 100&#39;s.
LOL, here is the deal frienT ;)
My knowledge of the english language has nothing to do with my IQ lv. Since English is for my 4th language. Dutch , French and German are the official languages I should know. And the first two I master enough. I am not a language wiz, I am more skilled in maths and economics. Afterall that is what I should know to become "a evil capitalist".

[Funky Monk]

I think the average IQ is around 110. With very few over 135. Maybe not that distinctive.

[Desert Fox]

Originally posted by Funky [email protected] 28 2003, 12:19 PM
I think the average IQ is around 110. With very few over 135. Maybe not that distinctive.
Well, in our school we had many people with a IQ above 110, every ASO student had a IQ lv above 117. The TSO students hower not ...