Any revlefters in the american armed services? [Archive]

The Douche

15th April 2011, 20:10

My friend was worried about getting NJP'd for failing security clearance or something like that, he's joining the marines.

I have an FBI file for anti-war organizing I did before I enlisted. I still got a secret clearance and deployed to Iraq where I had access to secure computers, and served in a special operations capable unit once I got home from Iraq.

I don't particularly think the military or the state in general sees the left as that big of a threat. (some sort of threat, yes) If you were cruising jihadi websites, yeah, that might set off some alarms.

I'm still enlisted and there are now pictures of me on the PSL website holding a banner. Obviously there are some risks I'm willing to take (like holding a banner on stage or in a march) because I don't think there are serious consequences involved.

Broletariat

15th April 2011, 21:48

You friend is leftist? If so? Why? I am not hating on your friend for joining the marines. Our party have people who are in the military through the answers org march foward.

He's not a leftist at all actually, he thinks Al Quada are a real threat and that America is doing good over there and crap >_>. I'm actually terribly misinformed on that subject so I have stumbling around in debates with him.

I have an FBI file for anti-war organizing I did before I enlisted. I still got a secret clearance and deployed to Iraq where I had access to secure computers, and served in a special operations capable unit once I got home from Iraq.

I don't particularly think the military or the state in general sees the left as that big of a threat. (some sort of threat, yes) If you were cruising jihadi websites, yeah, that might set off some alarms.

I'm still enlisted and there are now pictures of me on the PSL website holding a banner. Obviously there are some risks I'm willing to take (like holding a banner on stage or in a march) because I don't think there are serious consequences involved.

Thanks for that.

Fulanito de Tal

16th April 2011, 04:26

Yes there are. No it won't. I used to access this site in Iraq.

You're fucking crazy! I would have never accessed this site from a base or forward position. If the wrong person in your command catches wind of what you were doing, you could have been in deep shit, not legally, but you would have been doing colors duty for the rest of your enlistment to teach you to be an American.

I was in the military and I would have NEVER NEVER NEVER accessed anything like this except if it was to report it to someone else as a site that needs to be blocked.

Shiiiiit. I know of one guy that got busted with a confederate flag in his room and he was fucked for a while.

MarxSchmarx

16th April 2011, 07:17

Shiiiiit. I know of one guy that got busted with a confederate flag in his room and he was fucked for a while.

I guess one should give the US military credit where credit is due. One thing they have zero tolerance for is racism - in fact, they were among the few that openly defended affirmative action and quotas for different racial groups. If I were an African American soldier I would be insane to trust my life under the command of someone flying a confederate flag.

The Douche

16th April 2011, 16:48

You're fucking crazy! I would have never accessed this site from a base or forward position. If the wrong person in your command catches wind of what you were doing, you could have been in deep shit, not legally, but you would have been doing colors duty for the rest of your enlistment to teach you to be an American.

I was in the military and I would have NEVER NEVER NEVER accessed anything like this except if it was to report it to someone else as a site that needs to be blocked.

Shiiiiit. I know of one guy that got busted with a confederate flag in his room and he was fucked for a while.

I was soldier of the year for my company on the deployment.:lol:

I also have a hammer and sickle tattooed on my arm for all to see, and a portrait of stalin tattooed on my leg, and a circle a on my stomach. People in my unit regularly call me a communist, and I'm not hesitant to call myself one. Our company commander only ever bugs me about one thing, reenlisting.

It has a lot to do with what kind of soldier you are. If everybody likes you and you know your shit, then a lot of stuff tends to get brushed under the rug, y'know.

Bright Banana Beard

16th April 2011, 18:07

Pretty much all of us are in SSI. You know? For some reason I can feel the civil war are coming soon, but not many deaths, but horrifying experience.

Bad Grrrl Agro

16th April 2011, 21:15

I was soldier of the year for my company on the deployment.:lol:

I also have a hammer and sickle tattooed on my arm for all to see, and a portrait of stalin tattooed on my leg, and a circle a on my stomach. People in my unit regularly call me a communist, and I'm not hesitant to call myself one. Our company commander only ever bugs me about one thing, reenlisting.

It has a lot to do with what kind of soldier you are. If everybody likes you and you know your shit, then a lot of stuff tends to get brushed under the rug, y'know.
So my tattoos would make it through the physical? I have the hammer and sickle on my boob.

The Douche

16th April 2011, 21:27

Yes. Also, the standards that apply to volunteer armies right now (expecially in regards to crime, tattoos, and certain health issues) do not apply during conscription.

Comrade J

16th April 2011, 22:16

psgchisolm

16th April 2011, 22:29

In 1 year and a couple months yes. Going to MEPs wednesday for my physical and to sign my DEPs contract.

Rusty Shackleford

16th April 2011, 23:08

Fulanito de Tal

18th April 2011, 06:02

also, almost every combat vet i have talked to has questioned the role they played in the middle east. but, there are also some of those who are still staunchly conservative, pro-war, and pro-imperialist. same thing goes for workers. some are unconscious, some are conscious, and some consciously side with capital.

Immortal Technique - The 4th Branch

We act like we share in the spoils of war that they do
We die in wars, we don't get the contracts to make money off 'em afterwards!
We don't get weapons contracts, nigga!
We don't get cheap labor for our companies, nigga!
We are cheap labor, nigga!
Turn off the news and read, nigga!
Read... read... read...

Agnapostate

18th April 2011, 07:34

In 1 year and a couple months yes. Going to MEPs wednesday for my physical and to sign my DEPs contract.

Taken the ASVAB yet? I actually got an AFQT score of 97. :)

The Douche

18th April 2011, 16:17

One question though, when you realised that you wanted to surrender your will to do the bidding the state, why did you join the US army rather than become a cop? Is there something about non-Americans that you hate in particular, or do you just "want to travel" which is the standard bullshit argument for enlisting? I'm just intrigued how anybody can enlist voluntarily and still in any sense of the term, consider themselves "left-wing".

Is this directed towards me? I'm not going to entertain these questions when you phrase them that way.

Comrade J

18th April 2011, 16:28

Is this directed towards me? I'm not going to entertain these questions when you phrase them that way.

It is directed to any members or would-be members of an imperialist army, yourself included.

I admit the questions were somewhat loaded, but then it is genuinely very difficult for me to be polite to someone whose 'profession' is to murder on behalf of the government.

However, I will try. Perhaps you could answer these questions for me.

How do you reconcile your apparent leftist political stance (which I imagine to be intrinsically anti-imperialist, anti-government) with your volunteered career choice as a soldier, in which you pledge allegiance and loyalty to those you ultimately wish to overthrow, and take part in their imperialist campaigns?

With that in mind, do you have any moral qualms about killing people that otherwise might not have died had you personally not volunteered to join the army?

What were your main reasons for joining, and why not choose some other service role such as the police? Or even better, a career where your path is not destined by rich, anti-proletarian members of the bourgeoise?

southernmissfan

18th April 2011, 22:42

It is directed to any members or would-be members of an imperialist army, yourself included.

I admit the questions were somewhat loaded, but then it is genuinely very difficult for me to be polite to someone whose 'profession' is to murder on behalf of the government.

However, I will try. Perhaps you could answer these questions for me.

How do you reconcile your apparent leftist political stance (which I imagine to be intrinsically anti-imperialist, anti-government) with your volunteered career choice as a soldier, in which you pledge allegiance and loyalty to those you ultimately wish to overthrow, and take part in their imperialist campaigns?

With that in mind, do you have any moral qualms about killing people that otherwise might not have died had you personally not volunteered to join the army?

What were your main reasons for joining, and why not choose some other service role such as the police? Or even better, a career where your path is not destined by rich, anti-proletarian members of the bourgeoise?

I have to say I appreciate this post. Cmoney, I respect you as a poster, so I'm not trying to be an ass. But it's sad that RevLeft has come to the point where users can discuss joining the military (even asking advice!) and not be openly confronted.

I'm not sure why some of you, who are supposed revolutionary leftists, desire to join the armed forces. Surely, there has to be some other option out there. I understand the primary reasons people join--poverty, lack of employment, promise of education. But seriously, I don't see how anyone informed enough to make it to this forum can still desire to do this.

Ele'ill

18th April 2011, 22:58

But it's sad that RevLeft has come to the point where users can discuss joining the military (even asking advice!) and not be openly confronted.

:thumbup1:

psgchisolm

19th April 2011, 00:44

Taken the ASVAB yet? I actually got an AFQT score of 97. :)My recruiter hasn't given the actual number but she said it was around a 70 which isn't bad for a junior who hadn't taken algebra for about a year and a half and knows fuck all about cars. BTW on the AO(Assembling Objects) part how did you figure out how to place the oens with the random objects together?:confused: I know I got a 50% on that part.:D

What about you, are you in yet?

StalinFanboy

19th April 2011, 00:55

woah who let the moralists in?

Lenina Rosenweg

19th April 2011, 04:01

On the eve of WWII Trotsky advised SWP activists to "go with their class" to join the military, simply because that is where the class is.He thought is was important for the working class to get military training. Of course the situation now is vastly different.

Cmoney, I respect you as a poster and I am not challenging anything but I am curious as to your rationale. You did mention that you helped organise anti-war protests and then enlisted.I do know a fair number of people who did things they other way around, joined the military and then had become radicalized.

This is a different situation than Vietnam or WWII. I am not sure of the exact class composition of the US military but the situation for a leftist joining would be different than during Trotsky's time.I am sure you know, better than others, that what the US has been doing there is horrendous.

Comrade J

19th April 2011, 04:52

I have to say I appreciate this post. Cmoney, I respect you as a poster, so I'm not trying to be an ass. But it's sad that RevLeft has come to the point where users can discuss joining the military (even asking advice!) and not be openly confronted.

I'm not sure why some of you, who are supposed revolutionary leftists, desire to join the armed forces. Surely, there has to be some other option out there. I understand the primary reasons people join--poverty, lack of employment, promise of education. But seriously, I don't see how anyone informed enough to make it to this forum can still desire to do this.

This is exactly what I thought; this thread is fucking shocking to be honest; to join an army that is engaged in a series of imperialist wars is so intrinsically against what the left stands for that I'm in disbelief that such a thread can be allowed to remain open, and that more people don't seem to care.

psgchisolm should be restricted for his reactionary position, not just with regard to his joining of the US Army but also for several other things he has said previously. For instance, here he is defending a speech at a school by a soldier in the IDF (one of his many posts in this thread that is in fact apologetic towards them).

In the 40s relations were thin. The Germans wouldn't have come to America so gl. Yes I would want a German soldier to come to my school/campus. If they would be talking about how w\e countries NEEDED to be invaded, I doubt they would even be accepted in the first place. Again THERE ARE TWO SIDES TO A STORY. He deserves his chance to tell his story just as the Palestineans do. I watched the video, I heard him talk about watching his comrades getting shot in the middle of the street and when they tried to call in CAS they were denied, because they WOULDN'T fire at a school. He's not saying WHY palestine needs to be invaded. He's saying that there's more than meets the eye in war. That they don't TRY and kill civilians. But w\e.

PhoenixAsh

19th April 2011, 11:27

Wow, I saw a thread like this a number of years ago and the idea of joining an army was put down by pretty much everyone. Now it seems like nobody cares who submits their will to the whim of the state. Well done those people, you should be proud.

One question though, when you realised that you wanted to surrender your will to do the bidding the state, why did you join the US army rather than become a cop? Is there something about non-Americans that you hate in particular, or do you just "want to travel" which is the standard bullshit argument for enlisting? I'm just intrigued how anybody can enlist voluntarily and still in any sense of the term, consider themselves "left-wing".

Hmmm....probably for the same reason why anybody can have dry eyes when saying Stalin was an ok dude and everything was not as bad as it seemed. Now...before you start exploding on somebody who wants to join the army.,..which in todays society is just another fucking job because all corporations are in one way or another involved in killing somebody somewhere...you might want to clean your ideological house first.

I wouldn't care so much...if it weren't for the fact that you are calling for a restriction and ban....

I love it when people go all morals on sombody elses ass and then try to get somebody banned or restricted...did you ever receive that infraction for usingsexist language Comrade J (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2075877&postcount=15)????

I am also somewhat confused...because back in a similar thread in 2007 you stated that you would join the army but for the fact you were lazy...and did not want to become a tool of british imperialism. You also did not call for a ban on any of the voters who stated they would join the army.

I guess thats progressing opinions right there....

black magick hustla

19th April 2011, 12:29

i dont think there is a really an excuse to join the army in the us unless you have a family/are a felon/cant get loans. of course its a moralistic argument. i find it hard shooting point blank some brown people in the middle east for free college (rather than getting a loan, like everybody else) is a real reason

The Douche

19th April 2011, 18:09

It is directed to any members or would-be members of an imperialist army, yourself included.

I don't know why you assume I think the army is a good thing or assume that I think it is ok for anybody to join the army? A quick search of my posts would yield evidence that I support the defeat of coalition military forces in Iraq and Afghanistan, and openly acknowledged my own death as a victory for the anti-imperialist movement while I was deployed to Iraq.

How do you reconcile your apparent leftist political stance (which I imagine to be intrinsically anti-imperialist, anti-government) with your volunteered career choice as a soldier, in which you pledge allegiance and loyalty to those you ultimately wish to overthrow, and take part in their imperialist campaigns?

I don't. There cannot be any reconciliation.

With that in mind, do you have any moral qualms about killing people that otherwise might not have died had you personally not volunteered to join the army?

These are questions you need to ask of people who think there is nothing wrong with joining the army, people like psgchisolm.

What were your main reasons for joining, and why not choose some other service role such as the police?

I didn't join the army because it was a "service role". I also do not and certainly at the time (a 17 year old high school dropout) didn't have the necessary qualifications to become a police officer, not that I ever had even given it a thought.

Or even better, a career where your path is not destined by rich, anti-proletarian members of the bourgeoise?

When you bring out these questions, designed to make me look like an asshole, you should really look at what my politics actually are. There is of course no answer for this, because it implies that I think being in the army is ok.

Cmoney, I respect you as a poster, so I'm not trying to be an ass. But it's sad that RevLeft has come to the point where users can discuss joining the military (even asking advice!) and not be openly confronted.

If you do respect me as a poster then I would think that you are familiar with my position on imperialist soldiers, you know, like where I told psgchisolm that I hope he dies in Afghanistan.

I dare say that nobody is a quck to confront the notion of joining imperialist armed forces on revleft than I am.

http://www.answercoalition.org/march-forward/statements/veterans-active-duty-troops.html

Here you can read about some activism I was involved in recently, and even see a picture of me, openly aligning myself with anti-imperialist organizations in public even though it can have some negative effects on me if the military finds out. (my enlistment ends soon, so I feel its not to likely for me to be punished seriously for it)

Comrade J

19th April 2011, 20:41

^Cmoney, my sincere apologies for counting you amongst those people, it was just because of before when you asked if those questions were aimed at you, I thought you must therefore have still been a member of the US armed forces.

Glad to see you saw the error of your ways comrade, and again, sorry for making that accusation. :)

I would welcome answers to those questions from any serving personnel or those that are joining, in particular psghshghhcolm or whatever the fuck he's called. However, one of the reasons I wanted your response Cmoney is because from a brief skim of your posts (evidently I missed the crucial anti-army ones!) you seemed like a genuine leftist so your views on reconciliation between career and politics would have been interesting, whereas I have strong doubts about pshghshcolm's politics anyway, so it is pretty much futile to ask him.

The Douche

19th April 2011, 21:03

I am still serving, its not like you can just quit the army.

Comrade J

19th April 2011, 21:08

Go AWOL? ;)

And nonetheless, you seem pretty genuine and the fact that you're not an apologist for the army and its actions (in fact, the contrary) means the apology still stands.

MagÃ³n

19th April 2011, 21:13

cars.

Cars? What kind of questions do they ask you, about cars?

The Douche

19th April 2011, 21:34

Go AWOL? ;)

And nonetheless, you seem pretty genuine and the fact that you're not an apologist for the army and its actions (in fact, the contrary) means the apology still stands.

I certainly would not deploy again, and would risk arrest instead of that, but there is no logic in going AWOL and spending a long time in prison when I currently don't do anything but train once a month, and I get out in 8 months.

psgchisolm

20th April 2011, 01:46

Cars? What kind of questions do they ask you, about cars?
It's in the mechanical section. most of the stuff pertains to engineering cars metal work ect.

psgchisolm

20th April 2011, 01:49

I would welcome answers to those questions from any serving personnel or those that are joining, in particular psghshghhcolm or whatever the fuck he's called. However, one of the reasons I wanted your response Cmoney is because from a brief skim of your posts (evidently I missed the crucial anti-army ones!) you seemed like a genuine leftist so your views on reconciliation between career and politics would have been interesting, whereas I have strong doubts about pshghshcolm's politics anyway, so it is pretty much futile to ask him.
This post just showed how immature you are. Going back to messing up peoples names on purpose on an internet forum. Not growing the fuck up since 2006.

The Douche

20th April 2011, 02:45

You want to join the military and think that choice is in line with socialism, I think that says all that needs to be said about your maturity.

727Goon

20th April 2011, 02:45

I don't know why you assume I think the army is a good thing or assume that I think it is ok for anybody to join the army? A quick search of my posts would yield evidence that I support the defeat of coalition military forces in Iraq and Afghanistan, and openly acknowledged my own death as a victory for the anti-imperialist movement while I was deployed to Iraq.

Did you take that into your personal life with your unit and shit too, like did you not give a fuck if people you served with got killed or wounded? And if you honestly thought that you and the people around you didnt't deserve to live, how were you such a good soldier?

727Goon

20th April 2011, 02:57

I might join as a 68W medic or a combat correspondent if I can't find a job after I get my diploma and I don't try to justify it as a leftist but I got a family to support and there arent shit jobs out there so its whatever. Obviously the US military is imperialist and I'm not trying to defend it as an institution or the war in Afganistan, but if I join up and end up seeing combat, why should I feel bad about shooting at the taliban? Maybe if I was a stalinist who "critically supported" them, but they're like the most reactionary people ever. Again the US has no business in Afganistan and if there was a legit militant anti imperialist group there I'd support it, but I dont think I'd have too much of an issue fighting the taliban if I really had to.

20th April 2011, 03:06

People in the American armed services shouldn't be on revleft, they should be in a war criminals prison cell.

727Goon

20th April 2011, 03:13

lol

The Douche

20th April 2011, 03:19

Its about looking at things in terms of facts and drawing conclusions. Look, I support the removal of imperialists from Iraq and Afghanistan, that can't happen without military defeat, so if I'm there, then that means I am a valid target, and so are the dudes in my unit. It doesn't mean I want us/them/me to die, it means I understand the positive result of our deaths, even as just a propaganda tool.

And if you honestly thought that you and the people around you didnt't deserve to live, how were you such a good soldier?

Its not about certain individuals not "deserving to live". Its about understanding the nature of the conflict. I was a good soldier because I am a good dude, I care about people, I make sacrifices for them, and because I happen to enjoy "army shit". (like tactics, marksmanship, hiking, mapwork, etc) I just don't enjoy what the army does or the pomp and class system of the army.

I might join as a 68W medic or a combat correspondent if I can't find a job after I get my diploma and I don't try to justify it as a leftist but I got a family to support and there arent shit jobs out there so its whatever. Obviously the US military is imperialist and I'm not trying to defend it as an institution or the war in Afganistan

We've talked about this before and you know my feelings on it.

but if I join up and end up seeing combat, why should I feel bad about shooting at the taliban?

Because they are trying to practice the basic human desire of deciding their own fate and the fate of their community outside the influence of bigger stronger forces.

but they're like the most reactionary people ever. Again the US has no business in Afganistan and if there was a legit militant anti imperialist group there I'd support it, but I dont think I'd have too much of an issue fighting the taliban if I really had to.

And this is an obvious reactionary position. "They don't think like I do, so fuck em".

The Douche

20th April 2011, 03:20

People in the American armed services shouldn't be on revleft, they should be in a war criminals prison cell.

Come put me, and people who are playing leading roles in the anti-war movement in prison then.

psgchisolm

20th April 2011, 03:21

You want to join the military and think that choice is in line with socialism, I think that says all that needs to be said about your maturity.What does that have to do with maturity? I made up MY own decision about MY life and I didn't let anyone change that. I didn't come on a forum talking shit acting like a little brat who resorts to messing up peoples names as an in"insult" just because they don't agree with them. Besides you contradict yourself to hell and back. You say you didn't care if you died and how it would be a benefit to the working class of the world and w/e. Yet you still joined anyway? You actively oppose the US military, but you join it anyway even through you know better? What does that show about your maturity. As Uncle Sam said you probably just wanted to kill some brown people.

People in the American armed services shouldn't be on revleft, they should be in a war criminals prison cell.Just like how everyone who disagree's with you should be restricted in some way.

The Douche

20th April 2011, 03:35

What does that have to do with maturity?

It shows that you either don't understand socialism, or you don't understand what the US military does. Yet you are committing yourself to them, that is immature.

You say you didn't care if you died and how it would be a benefit to the working class of the world and w/e. Yet you still joined anyway?

Clearly, that is what I was saying after I enlisted. I was obviously not in Iraq before I joined the army, use your head.

You actively oppose the US military, but you join it anyway even through you know better? What does that show about your maturity.

It shows that I was immature as fuck, a 17 year old kid, who felt betrayed by personal friends and fellow socialists, who was burnt out on activism, who was scared of the future, who had dropped out of high school, and who took the easy and immature way out, who tried to renounce his beliefs, and now has to carry that forever, along with a case of PTSD. And now there are people who are trying to stop you from making a mistake, including people like me, who made the same bad choice you're about to make, but your immaturity prevents you from listening.

As Uncle Sam said you probably just wanted to kill some brown people.

Go ahead and PM Uncle Sam, and ask him if he thinks that of me. Go ahead and ask him if he thinks I am a hypocrite.

Princess Luna

20th April 2011, 03:46

People in the American armed services shouldn't be on revleft, they should be in a war criminals prison cell.
While i do find it strange that a leftist would be in the U.S. army (unless he/she became a leftist after joining) i think calling the average American soldier a "war criminal" is a bit harsh most of them are just misguided but otherwise decent people, the real criminals are the politicians and generals who started and keep the wars going.

727Goon

20th April 2011, 03:47

Its about looking at things in terms of facts and drawing conclusions. Look, I support the removal of imperialists from Iraq and Afghanistan, that can't happen without military defeat, so if I'm there, then that means I am a valid target, and so are the dudes in my unit. It doesn't mean I want us/them/me to die, it means I understand the positive result of our deaths, even as just a propaganda tool.

Fair enough I guess, I still think thats kind of cold but its whatever. I don't think I'm as much as an anti-imperialist as you personally, if I went I'd just try and look at it in terms of class, like I'm a working class black imperialist and the dude with the RPG is a brown working class reactionary, since we've at least got the fact that we're working class people of color and "bad guys" in common I'd rather we both live.

Its not about certain individuals not "deserving to live". Its about understanding the nature of the conflict. I was a good soldier because I am a good dude, I care about people, I make sacrifices for them, and because I happen to enjoy "army shit". (like tactics, marksmanship, hiking, mapwork, etc) I just don't enjoy what the army does or the pomp and class system of the army.Oh that makes sense I thought you were like going out on patrol or whatever like "Alright I hope we hit an IED".

We've talked about this before and you know my feelings on it.True I was mainly putting it out there for other people.

Because they are trying to practice the basic human desire of deciding their own fate and the fate of their community outside the influence of bigger stronger forces.
So was the South during the Civil War, they were still reactionary as hell. Imperialism is bad as fuck, and the fact that rape is still legal in Afganistan shows how fucked up it is for all the talk of human rights and shit. And if the people fighting against imperialism there were progressive minded people who were pissed off about that it would be one thing, but the fact is the Taliban are probably the biggest reactionaries there are after fascists.

And this is an obvious reactionary position. "They don't think like I do, so fuck em".Your right I think women should be able to drive and people shouldnt be stoned to death in soccer stadiums for sex outside of marriage, and fuck people who disagree. If that makes me a reactionary fine, I didnt know being a progressive meant supporting theocracy and feudalism.

The Douche

20th April 2011, 04:24

I don't think I'm as much as an anti-imperialist as you personally

I was not always so dedicated to anti-imperialism. But being sent to Iraq, and trying to deal with that afterwards makes me people change.

So was the South during the Civil War, they were still reactionary as hell.

No, the south broke from the US in order to maintain slavery. The taliban is trying to remove imperialists from Afghanistan, so are lots of other people in Afghanistan who are not pro-taliban, unfortunately the taliban are the biggest vehicle through which the people of Aghanistan can resist.

but the fact is the Taliban are probably the biggest reactionaries there are after fascists.

Do you oppose the taliban more than you consider yourself opposed to US imperialism?

If that makes me a reactionary fine, I didnt know being a progressive meant supporting theocracy and feudalism.

Imperialist victory will not lead to communism. The people of Afghanistan must kick out the imperialists before progress can be made.

727Goon

20th April 2011, 04:46

I was not always so dedicated to anti-imperialism. But being sent to Iraq, and trying to deal with that afterwards makes me people change.

fair enough its not a big issue in my day to day life so I havent thought about it all that much really

No, the south broke from the US in order to maintain slavery. The taliban is trying to remove imperialists from Afghanistan, so are lots of other people in Afghanistan who are not pro-taliban, unfortunately the taliban are the biggest vehicle through which the people of Aghanistan can resist.

Right, the south broke from the US because they felt continuing slavery was deciding their fate outside of the influence of bigger and stronger forces. The Taliban is trying to remove the imperialists from Afganistan, but they're also trying to impose a theocracy even more reactionary than the regime right now.

Do you oppose the taliban more than you consider yourself opposed to US imperialism?

It's not a matter of picking sides, whoever wins the working class of Afganistan loses.

Imperialist victory will not lead to communism. The people of Afghanistan must kick out the imperialists before progress can be made.

Taliban victory will not lead to communism either. The people of Afganistan need a progressive anti-imperialism movement.

Broletariat

20th April 2011, 05:00

This has become a rather serious discussion topic, can I request it be moved outside of chit-chat, I'm rather enjoying this conversation.

The Douche

20th April 2011, 05:15

Right, the south broke from the US because they felt continuing slavery was deciding their fate outside of the influence of bigger and stronger forces.

Except that the southern states had the same representation that the northern ones did. To say that the people of Afghanistan are like the leaders of the CSA is very incorrect. The people of Afghanistan are not fighting for the right to enslave people, the CSA lost out in the fair democratic process, Afghanistan got invaded.

The Taliban is trying to remove the imperialists from Afganistan, but they're also trying to impose a theocracy even more reactionary than the regime right now.

So that makes the 82nd Airborne into liberators? You think US imperialism is a progressive force, and a force for global good?

It's not a matter of picking sides, whoever wins the working class of Afganistan loses.

So you are ok if the US wins? At least if the Afghans take control of their own country they have the ability to develop it, and the working class has a chance to organize. Remember that there was a socialist movement in Afghanistan in the past. But the US helped the islamists destroy it. Unless the imperialists are defeated in every engagement then the world working class cannot move forward.

Taliban victory will not lead to communism either. The people of Afganistan need a progressive anti-imperialism movement.

And the space for that to emerge cannot exist when US imperialism is there. Anarchists and Left-communists are wrong to try and throw their hands up in the air and say "I support the working class of *insert country* against both *imperialist force* and *local powerbrokers*". The reality of the situation is that if the Taliban loses, the Americans win, and if the Americans win, then imperialism will continue its march. The taliban, unfortunately, must be militarily supported, we must support the defeat of the imperialist armed forces abroad, we must seek to encourage desertion and disillusionment within their ranks, we must turn this imperialist war abroad, into a civil war at home, that is the responsibility of communists, not to sign up.

kitsune

20th April 2011, 05:26

The people of Afghanistan had a progressive, anti-Imperialist government, the People's Democratic Party of Afghanistan. The hellhole that Afghanistan has been since the 80's was created and supported by America. The CIA, ISI, and Saudis financed, recruited, armed and trained the Mujahedeen to topple Taraki's government in an ideological proxy war against the USSR.

Kabul, 1980, before America's proxy army of fundamentalist Jihadis took over and destroyed the country.

http://i56.tinypic.com/2mgoww6.png

http://i52.tinypic.com/21o0zus.jpg

Anyone who thinks America is riding in on a white horse to help the poor oppressed people of Afghanistan is completely deluded or oblivious.

http://i54.tinypic.com/14ecrxk.jpg

727Goon

20th April 2011, 05:41

Except that the southern states had the same representation that the northern ones did. To say that the people of Afghanistan are like the leaders of the CSA is very incorrect. The people of Afghanistan are not fighting for the right to enslave people, the CSA lost out in the fair democratic process, Afghanistan got invaded.

When did I say anything about the people of Afganistan? I'm talking about the Taliban here. The Taliban are fighting imperialism, which is good, but not good enough to overlook the fact that they are fighting for theocracy.

So that makes the 82nd Airborne into liberators? You think US imperialism is a progressive force, and a force for global good?When the fuck did I say that? Of course not.

So you are ok if the US wins? At least if the Afghans take control of their own country they have the ability to develop it, and the working class has a chance to organize. Remember that there was a socialist movement in Afghanistan in the past. But the US helped the islamists destroy it. Unless the imperialists are defeated in every engagement then the world working class cannot move forward.Holy shit dude you're making me into some sort of imperialist. Yeah bruh I want the US to win cause I hate muslims and I want Afganistan to become a US colony. No, obviously I don't want the US to win.
I don't know much about the history of Afganistan, but I thought the only socialist "movement" in Afganistan was when the USSR invaded. I don't think we should put anti-imperialism over class struggle, they are one in the same and I'm not about to support a bourgeois anti-imperialist movement that will only make things worse for the Afgani people.

And the space for that to emerge cannot exist when US imperialism is there. Anarchists and Left-communists are wrong to try and throw their hands up in the air and say "I support the working class of *insert country* against both *imperialist force* and *local powerbrokers*". The reality of the situation is that if the Taliban loses, the Americans win, and if the Americans win, then imperialism will continue its march. The taliban, unfortunately, must be militarily supported, we must support the defeat of the imperialist armed forces abroad, we must seek to encourage desertion and disillusionment within their ranks, we must turn this imperialist war abroad, into a civil war at home, that is the responsibility of communists, not to sign up.I thought you were a left communist now or some shit. I don't think it's necessary for socialists to take sides in bourgeois power struggles. But just out of curiousity would you support local fascists over imperialists? Anyways the reality of the situation in Afganistan is that they're fucked unless a progressive national liberation movement happens.

Also is this whole "critical support" of the taliban bullshit the official line of ANSWER and if it is are there any more class struggle based veterans groups out there?

727Goon

20th April 2011, 05:44

StalinFanboy

20th April 2011, 05:56

People in the American armed services shouldn't be on revleft, they should be in a war criminals prison cell.

So should the workers that produce the guns that allow soldiers to kill people, the fatigues they wear, the tanks and bombs and jeeps and everything else.

Hell, why don't we go further and jail all workers that reproduce capitalism and imperialism. It's not just soldiers that are responsible for continuing imperialism. It's all of us. Soldiers just get the brunt of it because their role is so much more brutal and blatant.

The Douche

20th April 2011, 06:10

When did I say anything about the people of Afganistan? I'm talking about the Taliban here. The Taliban are fighting imperialism, which is good, but not good enough to overlook the fact that they are fighting for theocracy.

The taliban is the vehicle for those Afghans who oppose imperialism. I would prefer if there was some easy to love communist group leading the resistance to, but there isn't. The majority of people fighting against imperialism in Afghanistan, are doing it through the Taliban, and they are not "theocrats".

When the fuck did I say that? Of course not.

Well in Afghanistan there are only two possible outcomes, the victory of the Taliban or the victory of US imperialism.

No, obviously I don't want the US to win.

Then you want the Taliban to win, cause those are the only two forces which have the capability to win. Anything else you say, like, "wanting the working class of afghanistan" to win, is just empty rhetoric.

I don't know much about the history of Afganistan, but I thought the only socialist "movement" in Afganistan was when the USSR invaded

The USSR was supporting the popular government of Afghanistan against the foreign backed islamists, its what Kitsune is referring to.

they are one in the same and I'm not about to support a bourgeois anti-imperialist movement that will only make things worse for the Afgani people.

So you do think a US victory in Afghanistan is better than a taliban victory?

I don't think it's necessary for socialists to take sides in bourgeois power struggles.

The reality is that we have to pick sides, thats what politics means. So we have to say "yes, defeat imperialism, and then push forward with social revolution". Not "I am sitting this one out".

But just out of curiousity would you support local fascists over imperialists?

Fascism is imperialist. So in a situation like, WW2 for instance, I would not support German victory, Germany wasn't an independent nation doing its own thing, it was an imperialist power, Afghanistan was unjustly invaded so that it could be exploited by western powers.

Anyways the reality of the situation in Afganistan is that they're fucked unless a progressive national liberation movement happens.

So unless that develops (which can't happen unless the US starts to loose the fight) then you're content to just sit back, and watch how it unfolds, not pick sides, not oppose imperialism in a meaningful way?

Also is this whole "critical support" of the taliban bullshit the official line of ANSWER and if it is are there any more class struggle based veterans groups out there?

March Forward is the only anti-imperialist organization for veterans. And its 10 point program does not contain any expressed support for the Taliban, only an end to the occupation, and payment of reparations (to include those who fought against the US).

727Goon

20th April 2011, 06:25

The taliban is the vehicle for those Afghans who oppose imperialism. I would prefer if there was some easy to love communist group leading the resistance to, but there isn't. The majority of people fighting against imperialism in Afghanistan, are doing it through the Taliban, and they are not "theocrats".

The majority of the Taliban arent even motivated by anti-imperialism, they're motivated by jihad.

Well in Afghanistan there are only two possible outcomes, the victory of the Taliban or the victory of US imperialism.

They both suck, either way the Afgan working class is fucked. If theres some tiny ass insignificant 10 person progressive resistance group in Afganistan I'll pull for them on the off chance they could win the war. I mean an outright taliban victory isn't likely at all anyways, at this point imperialism is the reality.

Then you want the Taliban to win, cause those are the only two forces which have the capability to win. Anything else you say, like, "wanting the working class of afghanistan" to win, is just empty rhetoric.

No they're both bad I'm not rooting for either one. I'll support a revolution against either, and that's about as likely as a taliban victory anyways.

The USSR was supporting the popular government of Afghanistan against the foreign backed islamists, its what Kitsune is referring to.

Oh thats tight I thought the USSR rolled up on Afganistan like a mid eastern poland I didnt know they had a popular government.

So you do think a US victory in Afghanistan is better than a taliban victory?

No for the thousandth time.

The reality is that we have to pick sides, thats what politics means. So we have to say "yes, defeat imperialism, and then push forward with social revolution". Not "I am sitting this one out".

The Taliban arent going to defeat imperialism any time soon anyways, if we're gonna hope for the unrealistic might as well go all out and pull for revolution.

Fascism is imperialist. So in a situation like, WW2 for instance, I would not support German victory, Germany wasn't an independent nation doing its own thing, it was an imperialist power, Afghanistan was unjustly invaded so that it could be exploited by western powers.

Capitalism is imperialist and you're supporting a right wing capitalist movement. Would you support a neo-nazi resistance against imperialism?

So unless that develops (which can't happen unless the US starts to loose the fight) then you're content to just sit back, and watch how it unfolds, not pick sides, not oppose imperialism in a meaningful way?

Yeah I don't support capitalists whether they're the imperialist or fundamentalist variety. Supporting the Taliban isnt meaningful anyways because they're gonna lose.

[March Forward is the only anti-imperialist organization for veterans. And its 10 point program does not contain any expressed support for the Taliban, only an end to the occupation, and payment of reparations (to include those who fought against the US).

Alright. If I end up going into the military I'd like to join an anti imperialist veterans organization but I'm pretty suspicious of the PSL so I don't know.

The Douche

20th April 2011, 06:54

The majority of the Taliban arent even motivated by anti-imperialism, they're motivated by jihad

No the majority of the people fighting under the loose organization network known as the taliban, or referred to in the media as the taliban are motivated by a desire to get the US military the fuck out of their towns.

They both suck, either way the Afgan working class is fucked. If theres some tiny ass insignificant 10 person progressive resistance group in Afganistan I'll pull for them on the off chance they could win the war.

So your position is a non-position.

I mean an outright taliban victory isn't likely at all anyways, at this point imperialism is the reality.

Afghanistan has never been colonized in the past. It is our duty here at home to ensure the defeat of the US military as well, but there is not a lot of that going on anymore.

No they're both bad I'm not rooting for either one. I'll support a revolution against either, and that's about as likely as a taliban victory anyways.

And there's that empty rhetoric.

No for the thousandth time.

But you said this in refrence to the taliban:

I'm not about to support a bourgeois anti-imperialist movement that will only make things worse for the Afgani people.

You think the taliban will make things worse, so the defacto position is that you think the US military will make things better.

The Taliban arent going to defeat imperialism any time soon anyways, if we're gonna hope for the unrealistic might as well go all out and pull for revolution.

You don't know as much about Afghanistan or how the war is going there as you think you do. I'm not saying victory for the Taliban is around the corner, but victory for the US certainly isn't quickly approaching either. Do you realize there are still massive (and I mean MASSIVE) parts of the country where the US has straight up abandoned and decided that its not worth fighting there? Read about the Korengal valley for an example.

Capitalism is imperialist and you're supporting a right wing capitalist movement.

The taliban is not an imperialist force in Afghanistan, the US military is, come on now.

Would you support a neo-nazi resistance against imperialism?

Do you really want to take the same line as every single reactionary supporting imperialism? That the taliban are nazis? Will you soon be talking about "islamo-fascism"?

Alright. If I end up going into the military I'd like to join an anti imperialist veterans organization but I'm pretty suspicious of the PSL so I don't know.

I think its pretty dishonest to join the army and join MF! the same day. I mean, what are you gonna say when they ask you about your story? And you're like "yeah well I mean, I was a communist before I joined but I needed a job", they might not even let you in. I had to explain how it was that I was a leftist before joining the army, but unlike you or pgs(whatever), I was trying to bail on communism when I joined the army, you're trying to reconcile the two.

727Goon

20th April 2011, 07:12

No the majority of the people fighting under the loose organization network known as the taliban, or referred to in the media as the taliban are motivated by a desire to get the US military the fuck out of their towns.

And they just happen to be religious fundamentalists who want to stone women who talk back to their husbands? They're Islamists, they arent motivated by revolutionary principles.

So your position is a non-position.

Yeah I don't support reactionaries so sure.

Afghanistan has never been colonized in the past. It is our duty here at home to ensure the defeat of the US military as well, but there is not a lot of that going on anymore.

The US isn't trying to colonize Afganistan outright though they're trying to set up a puppet government.

And there's that empty rhetoric.

How is supporting revolution empty rhetoric just because its unrealistic?

You think the taliban will make things worse, so the defacto position is that you think the US military will make things better.

No the US military is already making things bad. Just because the Taliban will make things worse doesnt mean I support the US military.

You don't know as much about Afghanistan or how the war is going there as you think you do. I'm not saying victory for the Taliban is around the corner, but victory for the US certainly isn't quickly approaching either. Do you realize there are still massive (and I mean MASSIVE) parts of the country where the US has straight up abandoned and decided that its not worth fighting there? Read about the Korengal valley for an example.

Those territories remain but the US has already accomplished its goal of establishing a government and the Taliban arent going to overthrow it anytime soon.

The taliban is not an imperialist force in Afghanistan, the US military is, come on now.

Right, but they're still capitalist, so capitalism isn't always imperialist. In theory fascism doesnt have to be necessarily imperialist either.

Do you really want to take the same line as every single reactionary supporting imperialism? That the taliban are nazis? Will you soon be talking about "islamo-fascism"?

Yeah that's exactly what I'm talking about. No, I'm wondering how far you'll go to oppose imperialism. If the US invaded a country and an insurgent neo nazi movement was resisting the invasion would you "critically support" them too?

I think its pretty dishonest to join the army and join MF! the same day. I mean, what are you gonna say when they ask you about your story? And you're like "yeah well I mean, I was a communist before I joined but I needed a job", they might not even let you in. I had to explain how it was that I was a leftist before joining the army, but unlike you or pgs(whatever), I was trying to bail on communism when I joined the army, you're trying to reconcile the two.

I'm not trying to reconcile shit, I'm just doing what I have to do to provide for the people I love. That's capitalism dude.

manic expression

20th April 2011, 10:47

The US isn't trying to colonize Afganistan outright though they're trying to set up a puppet government.
What's the difference? It's interesting you deny that the US is colonizing Afghanistan, and yet a few sentences later you say:

Those territories remain but the US has already accomplished its goal of establishing a government and the Taliban arent going to overthrow it anytime soon.
So the US set up a client government and has extended its military power over large parts of the country (to pursue its financial and geopolitical interests, of course). How is that not colonialism?

Comrade J

20th April 2011, 13:05

PhoenixAsh

20th April 2011, 13:53

And this is an obvious reactionary position. "They don't think like I do, so fuck em".

Or...you know...its because its a theist, militant organisation aimed at creating a repressive intolerant, authoritarian government based on religious law, highly mysogenistic, anti-communist, and anti proletarian.

They are actually our enemies...and no amount of imperialism leveled against them makes them in any way shape or form near our allies.

I reject imperialism, or joining armed forced to fight them,...so far we agree. But to dismis the wish to fight them...as rooted in they think differently I think misses the fact that they are also our enemies.

If there actually was an internat. Brigade based on socialist support I would actualy think its very worthy to join and help defeat these reactionary bastards.

Comrade J

20th April 2011, 14:59

Or...you know...its because its a theist, militant organisation aimed at creating a repressive intolerant, authoritarian government based on religious law, highly mysogenistic, anti-communist, and anti proletarian.

They are actually our enemies...and no amount of imperialism leveled against them makes them in any way shape or form near our allies.

I reject imperialism, or joining armed forced to fight them,...so far we agree. But to dismis the wish to fight them...as rooted in they think differently I think misses the fact that they are also our enemies.

If there actually was an internat. Brigade based on socialist support I would actualy think its very worthy to join and help defeat these reactionary bastards.

Switch off your TV. Do you really believe that everyone fighting the US invasion is an actual member of the Taliban? As has already been pointed out in this thread, anyone opposing the US occupation is considered "Taliban" by the armed forces and the media, as it makes it seem a justifiable war against such reactionaries, when in actual fact it's a multi-political alliance as it's the only real resistance movement under which anybody in Afghanistan can fight. The media did much the same thing with Al Qaeda, which is a loose franchise if anything.

manic expression

20th April 2011, 15:06

Afghanistan isn't an example of colonialism, it's not an American colony in an economic and political sense, in the way that much of the world was under British and French rule for instance. Not that it is therefore in any way justified, just semantics.
I get what you're saying, but there are solid arguments to the contrary (http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/news/09-09-21-afghanistan-is-colonial-war.html).

mosfeld

20th April 2011, 15:21

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/3163/supportourtroops.jpg

(I like doing these types of images (http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/2896/supportxv.jpg))

Manic Impressive

20th April 2011, 15:33

I'm not trying to reconcile shit, I'm just doing what I have to do to provide for the people I love. That's capitalism dude.
Hey maybe after you leave the army you can get a job in the police. Same shit different uniform.

The Douche

20th April 2011, 18:16

And they just happen to be religious fundamentalists who want to stone women who talk back to their husbands? They're Islamists, they arent motivated by revolutionary principles

Stop being so thick. Allow me to quote myself:

No the majority of the people fighting under the loose organization network known as the taliban, or referred to in the media as the taliban are motivated by a desire to get the US military the fuck out of their towns.

Most people involved in the resistance are not ideologically tied to the Taliban, even if they do use the Taliban as their vehicle to fight the americans.

How is supporting revolution empty rhetoric just because its unrealistic?

Your position is "I don't want the imperialists kicked out of Afghanistan unless it is done by a socialist movement". But since such a movement does not exist, and cannot come into existence so long as the imperialist conficlt is being waged, your position, in effect, supports the imperialist forces.

Just because the Taliban will make things worse doesnt mean I support the US military.

But you do think the US military will make things better? I mean, you already said so.

Those territories remain but the US has already accomplished its goal of establishing a government and the Taliban arent going to overthrow it anytime soon.

There is still resistance in Iraq, and imperialists are still dying there, but the resistance has essentially been defeated and has no strongholds, the same will not be happening anytime soon in Afghanistan.

If the US invaded a country and an insurgent neo nazi movement was resisting the invasion would you "critically support" them too?

You have come full circle here, while claiming to be a communist and parroting the language of the imperialists who started these wars. This is where the sort of positions you hold lead to. Now you have placed yourself against the people of Afghanistan and are comparing them to neo-nazis, how absurd.

I'm just doing what I have to do to provide for the people I love.

That is how you're trying to reconcile it.

They are actually our enemies...and no amount of imperialism leveled against them makes them in any way shape or form near our allies.

And this is the old trick of both the bourgeoisie and the left-communists/anarchists, "if you don't support us, you must support the taliban, or saddam, or hitler, etc". Sorry, I support the defeat of imperialism, and if the taliban is the only vehicle the Afghans have through which to fight, then I must support a military victory for the taliban, if you can see how there is a difference between supporting the military goal of an organization (defeating its enemy) and supporting its ultimate political goals, then that is your problem, and not mine.

mosfeld

20th April 2011, 18:18

Your position is "I don't want the imperialists kicked out of Afghanistan unless it is done by a socialist movement". But since such a movement does not exist, and cannot come into existence so long as the imperialist conficlt is being waged

I agree with most of your points, but why do you say that?

The Douche

20th April 2011, 19:07

I agree with most of your points, but why do you say that?

Because right now the imperialists are on the ground and in the skies, actively enforcing imperialism. Prior to the invasion the Taliban had the logistics and everything necessary to conduct a-symmetrical warfare in place. So when the invasion occurred the taliban had funds, weapons, hideouts, etc. So when the afghans decide they are ready to fight the imperialists they need to work with the taliban, there is no real possibility for them to form or build a revolutionary organization, because they don't have the framework the taliban does, the imperialists will crush their nascent organizations.

I would obviously prefer if progressive organizations like the ALO could be the victors, but the reality is that they will not be able to organize into any sort of mass organization until the imperialists are kicked out. Now I don't think that they should abandon their work or anything, they should continue to build their movement just as they have been, but its foolish for us to think that they will someday take over the leadership of the anti-imperialist struggle. Its just not possible because of the realities of the military struggle.

mosfeld

20th April 2011, 19:11

I wouldn't make such hasty declarations, though. We don't know what Maoists are doing in Afghanistan. I wouldn't rule out PPW.

The Douche

20th April 2011, 19:22

I wouldn't make such hasty declarations, though. We don't know what Maoists are doing in Afghanistan. I wouldn't rule out PPW.

Well I do know that they do not register on a serious scale as a threat to the occupation. So I feel it is safe to assume that they will not in the forseeable future being the ones leading the anti-imperialist movement.

mosfeld

20th April 2011, 19:42

Well I do know that they do not register on a serious scale as a threat to the occupation. So I feel it is safe to assume that they will not in the forseeable future being the ones leading the anti-imperialist movement.

Well, CCOMPOSA and the old RIM would definitely not maintain fraternal relations with the CMPA unless it was a serious party preparing for PPW. It's a clandestine Party, we can't know what's going on. What's most likely is that they're in preparation, and working amongst the people.

^^^^

Maoistology at its best :D

The Douche

20th April 2011, 20:03

Well, CCOMPOSA and the old RIM would definitely not maintain fraternal relations with the CMPA unless it was a serious party preparing for PPW. It's a clandestine Party, we can't know what's going on. What's most likely is that they're in preparation, and working amongst the people.

^^^^

Maoistology at its best :D

I actually had to look up CMPA because I wasn't familiar with them, upon seeing thier name I remember hearing about them in passing on here. It was the ALO who I thought of when I thought of revolutionary anti-imperialists in Afghanistan.

I don't doubt that the CMPA is trying to build an organization amongst the people. But they just don't represent a threat, and won't for the forseeable future. Part of being in the military is reading about whats going on in the conflict areas, knowing the dynamics of what is called the "human terrain", that is, what kind of people are there, what those people have/need/want, what their history is, their political affiliations, who they're likely to work with, what sort of promises are likely to appeal to them etc.

So if there were an organization waging PPW or gearing up in a serious way for PPW, it would be on the radar, and those kinds of demands would be showing through in the human terrain. But the reality is that the most common demand for the afghan people is that violence end, but they know that violence won't end until the imperialists leave. If maoists were making headway amongst the people then there would also be a demand within the popular consciousness for things like land reform, women's liberation, and industrialization.

red cat

20th April 2011, 20:05

Great posts, both of you, but we seem to be moving slightly off the main topic ;)

727Goon

20th April 2011, 20:11

The Douche

20th April 2011, 20:20

I gotta go to work in a minute so I cant respond in detail but I'd like to point out that it seems like your not differentiating between the people of Afganistan and the Taliban, which is fucking absurd.

Actually, you're the one not seeing the difference there, see these posts:

I said:

The majority of people fighting against imperialism in Afghanistan, are doing it through the Taliban, and they are not "theocrats".

To which you replied:

And they just happen to be religious fundamentalists who want to stone women who talk back to their husbands? They're Islamists, they arent motivated by revolutionary principles.

So it is you who thinks that everybody who takes up arms against the imperialists in Afghanistan is an islamist and a theocrat. Or one of Dick Chaney's favorites, a term you're ok with, "islamo-fascist".

You refuse to understand that the Taliban is the only vehicle which the people of Afghanistan can fight the imperialists with, you also refuse to understand that anybody who takes up arms against the imperialists is called the taliban by the media, you do not understand that the taliban is just a loose network, especially now, which is dominated by many different personalities, but most importantly provides the only infrastructure through which the Afghans can resist. If you live in afghanistan and you decide you want to fight the imperialists, your guns, ammo, radios, and logistical support can only be supplied by the forces commonly known as the "taliban".

So you think anybody who works with them is a islamist, I however recognize that regular afghans can only work with what they have.

So yes, it is you, who cannot differentiate between the taliban and the regular, unaligned people of afghanistan.

PhoenixAsh

20th April 2011, 23:35

Most people involved in the resistance are not ideologically tied to the Taliban, even if they do use the Taliban as their vehicle to fight the americans.

Right. I agree with that. Now...they align themselves with a reactionary theist organisation whose aim it is to create a religious government which is oppressive, reactionary, mysogenistic and anti-communistic, anti-proletariat.

I am asking you now...honestly...did you think your argument through?

Your position is "I don't want the imperialists kicked out of Afghanistan unless it is done by a socialist movement". But since such a movement does not exist, and cannot come into existence so long as the imperialist conficlt is being waged, your position, in effect, supports the imperialist forces.

No...it means WE have to fight harder to make OUR imperialist forces retreat. Its OUR obligation to see to it that OUR government do not get the chance to further their vile goals.

Its NOT our job to support reactionaries. Its NOT our job to ally ourselves with our enemies who currently fight another enemy of ours.

The enemy of my enemey if NOT necessarilly my friend.

This argument has been rejected in the past. We denounce the alliances between communists and fascists in Russia...we shoud not support them to further that alliance.

Basically its the same tactic the US used to counter the Communist government. And its that very same tactic that eventually created a civil war, a theist reactionary mysogenist government and horrible horrible religious oppression.

So we should not fall into the same stupid trap.

And this is the old trick of both the bourgeoisie and the left-communists/anarchists, "if you don't support us, you must support the taliban, or saddam, or hitler, etc". Sorry, I support the defeat of imperialism, and if the taliban is the only vehicle the Afghans have through which to fight, then I must support a military victory for the taliban, if you can see how there is a difference between supporting the military goal of an organization (defeating its enemy) and supporting its ultimate political goals, then that is your problem, and not mine.

Aha...so basically yoi are supporting enemies of the proletariat because they fight other enemies of the proletariat?

Its ignoring the fact that it OUR governments doing that and you are putting the responsibility of solving that problem on the Afghans...and no less on the Afghans who allign themselves with horrible, horrible reactionaries and our own enemies.

Instead we should take our repsonsibility and fight OUR governments tooth and nail to defeat the whole fucking reason for imperialism to begin with. Because THAT is the only solution to imperialism....because its the socialist thing to do...not support reactionaries to solve our problems.

StalinFanboy

21st April 2011, 02:27

Agnapostate

21st April 2011, 02:46

So should the workers that produce the guns that allow soldiers to kill people, the fatigues they wear, the tanks and bombs and jeeps and everything else.

Hell, why don't we go further and jail all workers that reproduce capitalism and imperialism. It's not just soldiers that are responsible for continuing imperialism. It's all of us. Soldiers just get the brunt of it because their role is so much more brutal and blatant.

That's the reality. All taxpayers living in countries with militarily aggressive governments are providing marginal contributions to military aggression. Individual members of the military similarly provide marginal contributions to military aggression. The infantry and artillery personnel that can be most easily distinguished as killers could not kill without the military support personnel (from ground ordinance to food service), who could not do their jobs without the financial support of the war/defense departments of their respective countries, who could not provide financial support without receiving tax revenue provided by civilians. The nonexistence of a single individual is generally irrelevant to the progress and outcome of military conflicts, whether it be a single taxpayer or a single infantryman. There is simply a different perception of uniformed military personnel and infantrymen specifically that is created by limited conceptual dimensions.

Since an individual's service in an aggressive military generally does not have any bearing on the establishment of the collective ownership and management of the means of production and distribution, there is no conflict with adherence to socialist beliefs. Since an individual's service in an aggressive military generally does not have any bearing on the specific war and deployment policies pursued by the national government and military command staff, there is no conflict with adherence to anti-war and anti-imperialist beliefs.

727Goon

21st April 2011, 03:00

Cmoney, I would not be so quick to lump 727goon's politics in with LeftComs and anarchists. The LeftCom position is that both the US and the Taliban are enemies of the proletariat, as they are just warring factions of the ruling class. The main difference between the US and the Taliban is that the latter are the losers. I have no doubt in my mind should Afghanistan become a powerful nation, they would also be imperialist, because that is the nature of capitalism.

But anyway, back to my main point, 727goon's position is nowhere near that of the Communist Left because he openly supports US imperialism, and has no qualms about it. And yes, 727goons, you are supporting US imperialism if you have no qualms about joining the military and fighting the Taliban.

It's not that I don't have any qualms about it politically, I know it goes against my politics but I put my family over everything and if that's what I've gotta do to get a job it is what it is. All I'm saying in terms of the taliban they're so reactionary that even though I'd be in the wrong as a member of the US military they're just as fucked up and possibly worse.

southernmissfan

21st April 2011, 21:03

Comrade J

21st April 2011, 21:46

It's not that I don't have any qualms about it politically, I know it goes against my politics but I put my family over everything and if that's what I've gotta do to get a job it is what it is. All I'm saying in terms of the taliban they're so reactionary that even though I'd be in the wrong as a member of the US military they're just as fucked up and possibly worse.

And as has been pointed out to you a million fucking times, not everyone fighting under the banner of the Taliban is in fact a supporter of the Taliban government or its politics. It is the only significant resistance movement in Afghanistan, in terms of weapons supplies, infrastructure and coordination etc. so many people join forces with them to resist the occupation.

If you go ahead and do this stupid fucking thing like there is no other choice, then one day you'll find yourself looking down a scope at the Korengal valley or wherever and see a young Arab man with a gun and because he is going to try and kill you, you're going to have to kill him instead. But what you will never know is if that young man you murdered for your government was a reactionary Taliban fighter who wanted to bring about a repressive regime (who you would apparently have no qualms killing), or maybe a man whose mother/father/sister/brother etc was killed a year ago in a bombing strike, and wanted to rid the country of the army that did that to them. Or for any other reason, whether it be political, economic, religious, personal reasons.

Southernmissfan is (once again) correct - there is no valid excuse for joining the army when there are so many other things you can do. Does your family have a military history, do you feel pressured into doing this or something? Or do you just really wanna kill people?

Scary Monster

21st April 2011, 22:42

So you really believe that you have no other job opportunity, no other possibility other than joining the fucking US military? And what makes you think that joining the military will be a positive thing for your family (since you obviously have no concern for the brown families across the world)?

I also joined the military for the same reasons as 727. Im in the army national guard (which is pretty much the same thing as regular Army). Me and my family are struggling so i had to do something. Joining the military is pretty much the only practical solution for me at this time. Im pretty sure 727 is in the exact same boat as me.
Also, havent you heard that most of the military (at least the national guard) is being filled up, because no one can find a job, or is not making a living wage right now? Because im one of those people. I had to put aside politics and think about the well-being of my folks. Either that, or i just let my mom and sis live in a shitty studio apartment with mold and living off of ramen noodles. Besides, my MOS has nothing to do with blowing someone up. Im a supply guy (92A).

EDIT

And as has been pointed out to you a million fucking times, not everyone fighting under the banner of the Taliban is in fact a supporter of the Taliban government or its politics. It is the only significant resistance movement in Afghanistan, in terms of weapons supplies, infrastructure and coordination etc. so many people join forces with them to resist the occupation.

If you go ahead and do this stupid fucking thing like there is no other choice, then one day you'll find yourself looking down a scope at the Korengal valley or wherever and see a young Arab man with a gun and because he is going to try and kill you, you're going to have to kill him instead. But what you will never know is if that young man you murdered for your government was a reactionary Taliban fighter who wanted to bring about a repressive regime (who you would apparently have no qualms killing), or maybe a man whose mother/father/sister/brother etc was killed a year ago in a bombing strike, and wanted to rid the country of the army that did that to them. Or for any other reason, whether it be political, economic, religious, personal reasons.

Southernmissfan is (once again) correct - there is no valid excuse for joining the army when there are so many other things you can do. Does your family have a military history, do you feel pressured into doing this or something? Or do you just really wanna kill people?

You come across as some kid who doesnt have to worry about anything besides where to get his next bag of cheetos.

Kamos

21st April 2011, 22:56

I also joined the military for the same reasons as 727. Im in the army national guard (which is pretty much the same thing as regular Army). Me and my family are struggling so i had to do something. Joining the military is pretty much the only practical solution for me at this time. Im pretty sure 727 is in the exact same boat as me.
Also, havent you heard that most of the military (at least the national guard) is being filled up, because no one can find a job, or is not making a living wage right now? Because im one of those people. I had to put aside politics and think about the well-being of my folks. Besides, my mos has nothing to do with blowing someone up. Im a supply guy (92A).

So you join the military, to work as a fucker-up of other people's lives because you have fucked up your own already? What makes you think you are entitled to do so? And their lives don't matter? By the way, nice copout here at the end. You don't murder people, you help others do so! Feel free to wash your hands, because you're innocent! The capitalist system is weak and about to collapse, and the only reason it hasn't already is because people like you sell themselves out to the system. You have come here to Revleft, and claim that you are a leftist. So why do you support our enemies? If you have managed to survive so far, survive a bit more until you can find a job as a cleaner or something. Ironically enough, that would actually be a "clean" job.
I can seriously say I respect those soldiers more who are really convinced that they are fighting for a good cause. At least they aren't betraying themselves.

Comrade J

21st April 2011, 23:03

You come across as some kid who doesnt have to worry about anything besides where to get his next bag of cheetos.

I'm an unemployed graduate, in debt, owe my landlord money and I'm absolutely broke as fuck.

Still yet to kill anyone for my government.

So fuck you and your pathetic sob story, class traitor.

Scary Monster

21st April 2011, 23:15

So you join the military, to work as a fucker-up of other people's lives because you have fucked up your own already? What makes you think you are entitled to do so? And their lives don't matter? By the way, nice copout here at the end. You don't murder people, you help others do so! Feel free to wash your hands, because you're innocent! The capitalist system is weak and about to collapse, and the only reason it hasn't already is because people like you sell themselves out to the system. You have come here to Revleft, and claim that you are a leftist. So why do you support our enemies? If you have managed to survive so far, survive a bit more until you can find a job as a cleaner or something. Ironically enough, that would actually be a "clean" job.
I can seriously say I respect those soldiers more who are really convinced that they are fighting for a good cause. At least they aren't betraying themselves.

What a little shit, dont hide behind your internet anonymity and personally insult me. I bet you wouldnt say the same shit to me in person. Youll get fucked up big time. You dont even know me anyway.
All i know is, i do what i gotta do to not see my family end up on the street. I dont see any communist party or organization over here helping out people in need right now. Since youre so passionate about my decision to join the military, would you like to pay off all my tuition and find a job for me? I dont think you would. Political activism wont give my folks food for today. Being a communist in a capitalist world isnt easy. Youre making it sound like i joined Marines infantry. Yes, i 'contribute to our enemy' but we all do that in some way.

I dont have only myself to worry about right now. If i was the only one in my family who is on the verge of becoming homeless right now or had little food to eat, i wouldnt even think about joining the military and just barely survive on odd jobs while continuing to look for better work.

Scary Monster

21st April 2011, 23:22

Kamos

21st April 2011, 23:43

Listen ya little shit, dont hide behind your internet anonymity and personally insult me.

Lol what?

I bet you wouldnt say the same shit to me in person. Youll get fucked up big time. You dont even know me anyway.

That's why I'm speaking to you on the Internet, where your stupid immature rage is more pathetic and laughable than actually menacing.

All i know is, i do what i gotta do to not see my family end up on the street.

On the street? B'aww, poor soul, you must be living terribly. I bet you're still living better than the majority of third world countrymen. You do sound determined, though. Would you shoot a random stranger on the street if you happened to know he possesses a valuable item worth enough to bail your family out? Oh wait, stupid question - you're in the military, cold blooded murder is no problem for you.

I dont see any communist party or organization over here helping out people in need right now. Political activism wont give my folks food for today. Being a communist in a capitalist world isnt easy. Youre making it sound like i joined Marines infantry. Yes, i 'contribute to our enemy' but we all do that in some way.

Except that the rest of us do something about it - like, if nothing else is possible, simply trying not to contribute to our enemy. You, on the other hand, gladly sell your worthless life out to the government. No points to you.

I dont have only myself to worry about right now. If i was the only one who is on the verge of becoming homeless right now or had little food to eat, i wouldnt think about joining the military.

What a terrible excuse. You know what - if you're here right now, where you are about to lose your home (as you say), it was probably you who screwed something up in life. So why don't you take that responsibility instead, by not signing up with the military?

StalinFanboy

21st April 2011, 23:55

Kamos, are you really saying that someone should give up trying to feed their family because other people have it worse, and that he's poor because it's his fault?

Way to be reactionary as fuck

Scary Monster

21st April 2011, 23:57

I'm an unemployed graduate, in debt, owe my landlord money and I'm absolutely broke as fuck.

Still yet to kill anyone for my government.

So fuck you and your pathetic sob story, class traitor.

Lol what?

That's why I'm speaking to you on the Internet, where your stupid immature rage is more pathetic and laughable than actually menacing.

On the street? B'aww, poor soul, you must be living terribly. I bet you're still living better than the majority of third world countrymen. You do sound determined, though. Would you shoot a random stranger on the street if you happened to know he possesses a valuable item worth enough to bail your family out? Oh wait, stupid question - you're in the military, cold blooded murder is no problem for you.

Except that the rest of us do something about it - like, if nothing else is possible, simply trying not to contribute to our enemy. You, on the other hand, gladly sell your worthless life out to the government. No points to you.

What a terrible excuse. You know what - if you're here right now, where you are about to lose your home (as you say), it was probably you who screwed something up in life. So why don't you take that responsibility instead, by not signing up with the military?

like i said- all i know is, its what i gotta do. you obviously would not understand, and continue to make personal insults. keep being an ass and see what happens

Comrade J

22nd April 2011, 00:02

Wow youre a real tough guy, insulting people over the internet

Odd that you bolded the bit I'd consider the least critical.

As for that tired cliché in which you invoke the internet as a retort - it really doesn't matter what medium I use to tell you this as it's the exact same opinion I'd have of you, your choices, and your assumptions about me in any other situation.

Also, it appears you are threatening people over the internet, so you're a hypocrite in more ways than one, shocking.

Kamos

22nd April 2011, 00:04

Kamos, are you really saying that someone should give up trying to feed their family because other people have it worse, and that he's poor because it's his fault?

Way to be reactionary as fuck

Way to be troll as fuck.

Of course he shouldn't give up feeding his family, he just shouldn't do it through crime. I don't get where you got that from. In addition, he may well be poor because it's his fault - that's the reality in the capitalist system, this is not a matter of ideology. He may have been unfortunate throughout his life, or unfairly screwed over by said system, but it is also possible that he was just lazy and irresponsible earlier and perhaps even now. I admit, I was a bit judgmental in this regard, probably due to his terribly defensive manner. (Protip: Chances are I was right.)

like i said- all i know is, its what i gotta do. you obviously would not understand, and continue to make personal insults. keep being an ass and see what happens

Ah, a classic copout for when you know you've lost a debate: "You don't understand. I'm a misunderstood genius!". Oh well. As I've told you - I'm eagerly waiting to see the consequences.

Agnapostate

22nd April 2011, 00:04

Comrade J

22nd April 2011, 00:11

> If you go ahead and do this stupid fucking thing like there is no other choice, then one day you'll find yourself looking down a scope at the Korengal valley or wherever and see a young Arab man with a gun and because he is going to try and kill you, you're going to have to kill him instead.

Why would an Arab man be in Afghanistan?

Maybe because Arabs have been settling in Afghanistan since the 7th or 8th century and maybe also because thousands of Arab muslims went to Afghanistan and joined the Mujahadeen in the 1980s and stayed there...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Afghanistan-Military-History-Alexander-Against/dp/0306818264/ref=pd_sim_b_2
Give this a read.

Scary Monster

22nd April 2011, 00:28

Way to be troll as fuck.

Of course he shouldn't give up feeding his family, he just shouldn't do it through crime. I don't get where you got that from. In addition, he may well be poor because it's his fault - that's the reality in the capitalist system, this is not a matter of ideology. He may have been unfortunate throughout his life, or unfairly screwed over by said system, but it is also possible that he was just lazy and irresponsible earlier and perhaps even now. I admit, I was a bit judgmental in this regard, probably due to his terribly defensive manner. (Protip: Chances are I was right.)

Ah, a classic copout for when you know you've lost a debate: "You don't understand. I'm a misunderstood genius!". Oh well. As I've told you - I'm eagerly waiting to see the consequences.

Whos debating? Again, im just saying I know what i gotta do to ensure the well being of the people i care about.

By the way--- im only 22, yet i have plenty work experience, done with college and completed trade school as paralegal also. Im going to be in law school, but all i need is a job that pays much more than minimum wage to sustain myself or afford more school. Im "stuck" in my situation and need to do something drastic to get out of it. So I dont need to prove anything and i know what im doing. Just tryin to have a discussion, but thats hard with you being a troll. Pretty funny how im being called 'lazy' or im being told i made bad choices (quite the opposite) when you know absolutely nothing about me.

psgchisolm

22nd April 2011, 02:25

Just signed as 11x infantry. They literially had NO other jobs other than combat ones. Also I'm color-blind so that DQ'd me from half the jobs. All the guys had to choose combat jobs except one who had petroleum specialist. One female had healthcare specialist or something so. meh. i plan on reclassing on my second trip to meps to intel. If i can't I certainly won't lose any sleep over 11x. Hooah.

FreeFocus

22nd April 2011, 03:22

I am not and I can't envision a scenario where I would ever be. I refuse to murder people, or help prop up a system that murders people, to "put food on the table." I could do that in other ways that don't involve raining down death upon innocent people.

Agnapostate

22nd April 2011, 03:37

The Douche

22nd April 2011, 03:51

khad

22nd April 2011, 05:29

Thread moved to politics. Play nice, folks.

~Spectre

22nd April 2011, 06:00

Would browsing revleft like, get you in trouble or something.

I'm currently a 4 star general, and nah shit's fine. None of us actually believe the shit we say in public anyway.

#FF0000

22nd April 2011, 06:08

RedHal

22nd April 2011, 06:17

Whos debating? Again, im just saying I know what i gotta do to ensure the well being of the people i care about.

By the way--- im only 22, yet i have plenty work experience, done with college and completed trade school as paralegal also. Im going to be in law school, but all i need is a job that pays much more than minimum wage to sustain myself or afford more school. Im "stuck" in my situation and need to do something drastic to get out of it. So I dont need to prove anything and i know what im doing. Just tryin to have a discussion, but thats hard with you being a troll. Pretty funny how im being called 'lazy' or im being told i made bad choices (quite the opposite) when you know absolutely nothing about me.

kill a few dirt poor brown people overseas to pay for your law degree so you can enjoy that future middle class lifestyle?

Kamos

22nd April 2011, 08:07

By the way--- im only 22, yet i have plenty work experience, done with college and completed trade school as paralegal also.

Wow, I'm impressed. Not! One would think that you would have gotten past the "military is OK" stage in college.

Whos debating? Again, im just saying I know what i gotta do to ensure the well being of the people i care about.

We are debating. Haven't you noticed?

Im going to be in law school, but all i need is a job that pays much more than minimum wage to sustain myself or afford more school.

You don't need a job that pays "much more than minimum wage" to sustain yourself, you just need to stop living like upper middle class. I assume the rest of your family (who are able to) are working as well, or are very actively seeking one at least - and many other people in that situation are able to get by.

Im "stuck" in my situation and need to do something drastic to get out of it.

The end justifies the means, doesn't it? Approximately 29,000 others on this forum would disagree, but hey, that's your opinion.

Pretty funny how im being called 'lazy' or im being told i made bad choices

You made one already, which you've admitted in this thread. Besides, you take the easy path of becoming a drone of imperialism and a murderer (sorry, a supplier of murderers) instead of working hard, but at least honestly. You are exactly what I would call lazy.

Comrade J

22nd April 2011, 12:40

The CIA World Factbook states that the proportions of the constituent ethnic groups of Afghanistan are, "Pashtun 42%, Tajik 27%, Hazara 9%, Uzbek 9%, Aimak 4%, Turkmen 3%, Baloch 2%, other 4%," and that the languages of the country are, "Afghan Persian or Dari (official) 50%, Pashto (official) 35%, Turkic languages (primarily Uzbek and Turkmen) 11%, 30 minor languages (primarily Balochi and Pashai) 4%." What is the probability of engaging Arabs in armed conflict? If they dwelt among militants in whatever region they were in, how would they be distinguished as Arabs without speaking to them?

Has it never occurred to you that not necessarily everybody fighting in Afghanistan is a native Afghan? Like in the war against the Soviets, many foreigners have entered the country to fight and some of the old Arab mujahideen have again taken up arms.

I know that you're just trying to be a smartass by sidetracking the debate into a point that really doesn't matter, but the fact of the matter is I didn't want to say "Taliban" fighter as that would negate the point I was making, so I picked a random ethnicity who - from my studies of Afghanistan - I know is present there. This is the last I'll say on this non-issue, so quit the fucking pedantry and contribute something actually meaningful.

psgchisolm

22nd April 2011, 14:01

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 17:01

Comrade J

22nd April 2011, 17:48

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 18:34

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 18:35

And why is it that I should support a movement most Afgans oppose?

psgchisolm

22nd April 2011, 18:37

And why is it that I should support a movement most Afgans oppose?Anti-imperialism.

Comrade J

22nd April 2011, 18:48

First of all I'm not going to have a combat MOS, so its unlikely I'll be killing anyone. Second of all I did some research on the Taliban and I couldn't find shit to substantiate that claim that it's mostly people who aren't actually the real Taliban. And I thought soldiers were supposed to be working class or some shit.

As with police officers, they have betrayed their class to do the bidding of our oppressors. Sure you'll get some hero status amongst ignorant nationalists, and if that's the shit you like then have at it. But don't for a moment suppose that the left is united behind you when you volunteer to aid in an imperialist campaign.

And maybe read some books on Afghani military and political history then, especially 1970s onwards. Even if you have yet to read anything substantiating the claim that some supposed Taliban fighters are not ultra-reactionary Islamic militants, surely logical thinking alone can allow you to deduce that when the world's most powerful superpower and its lackies invade a country, it's gonna piss off more than just government supporters? What about all the civilians the US military has bombed, shot and mortared for the past 10 years, don't you think their relatives might be inclined to take up arms? As I've said already, given that the Taliban has access to supplies, arms, infrastructure and so on, it's a beacon for anyone wanting to oppose imperialism.

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 19:00

As with police officers, they have betrayed their class to do the bidding of our oppressors. Sure you'll get some hero status amongst ignorant nationalists, and if that's the shit you like then have at it. But don't for a moment suppose that the left is united behind you when you volunteer to aid in an imperialist campaign.

And maybe read some books on Afghani military and political history then, especially 1970s onwards. Even if you have yet to read anything substantiating the claim that some supposed Taliban fighters are not ultra-reactionary Islamic militants, surely logical thinking alone can allow you to deduce that when the world's most powerful superpower and its lackies invade a country, it's gonna piss off more than just government supporters? What about all the civilians the US military has bombed, shot and mortared for the past 10 years, don't you think their relatives might be inclined to take up arms? As I've said already, given that the Taliban has access to supplies, arms, infrastructure and so on, it's a beacon for anyone wanting to oppose imperialism.

You would think that due to the brutality of the US more people would be inclined to support the Taliban. However the fact is 60 percent of Afgans support the US, which says something about the resistance movement. 75 percent of civilian casualties in Afganistan have been from the Taliban according to wikipedia (which in my experience is actually a pretty neutral and reliable source of information). It looks like as it stands now in Afganistan imperialism is the lesser of two evils, if there was an anti-imperialist movement that had popular support and didnt slaughter it's own people, obviously it would be different.

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 19:02

And obviously I don't expect the left to "unite behind me" joining an imperialist military isn't politically defensible but I have few other options if I can't get a job. Maybe leftists could put politics aside for like half a second and get where I'm coming from though.

Kamos

22nd April 2011, 19:25

No, its the back up plan if I can't find a good job afer graduation. It won't be a positive thing for my family, I'd be away all the time and it's dangerous but it beats what I'm doing right now, working at a skate shop and begging for more shifts because I'm not getting shit money.

So you have an honest job already. Why turn to crime then? You'll survive until you find a better job - it's a matter of time, most likely.

And it's not that I have no concern for the "brown families across the world", but yeah I put my black family over them. Sorry I'm not sorry. No problem. After all, first it's just "my family over all others", before it becomes "my nationality over all others". Enjoy your reactionary mindset.

Although I doubt the Taliban cares about their countires families since they kill more civilians than US troops and are responsible for 75 percent of the casualties in Afganistan according to wikipedia.

Wikipedia: spreading the gospel truth since 2001. If you cite Wikipedia as your only source, your point is pretty much invalid.

But for me some things are bigger than politics.

As I said, you're a selfish bastard.

First of all I'm not going to have a combat MOS, so its unlikely I'll be killing anyone.

Like your [expletive removed] just before you, you appear to think that indirectly causing murder is somehow better than directly causing it. Newsflash: if you're in the military, you're responsible for those deaths.

Second of all I did some research on the Taliban

Let me guess: you hit up Wikipedia?

And I thought soldiers were supposed to be working class or some shit.

Soldiers aren't "working class". They are above the working class in capitalism (better income, dishonest work, you know the drill), and there are no classes as such in communism. So no, soldiers aren't working class in any system.

according to wikipedia (which in my experience is actually a pretty neutral and reliable source of information)

Random people who can edit articles without any supervision, and often without notice, make a neutral and reliable source of information? THAT'S BULLSHIT.

Maybe leftists could put politics aside for like half a second

Maybe you could put your ego aside for like half a second. Of course we can put politics aside for a while - but if we do so, there is no point coming onto this website. The principle here is that we do whatever we can to help the workers' struggle, not just spray red circled A's onto walls and proclaim we're the cool kids on the block.

The Douche

22nd April 2011, 19:34

And why is it that I should support a movement most Afgans oppose?

Yeah, the majority of Afghans oppose the taliban, thats why they still exist even though the US military has fought them for 10 years.

:rolleyes:

The Douche

22nd April 2011, 19:36

Sorry I can't hear either of you over this cadence. :cool: Rock Steady Inf.
9sQozssvZ8M

Been there, done that, you don't impress me.

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 19:40

So you have an honest job already. Why turn to crime then? You'll survive until you find a better job - it's a matter of time, most likely.

Could be.

No problem. After all, first it's just "my family over all others", before it becomes "my nationality over all others". Enjoy your reactionary mindset.

I will.

Wikipedia: spreading the gospel truth since 2001. If you cite Wikipedia as your only source, your point is pretty much invalid.

http://news.cnet.com/Study-Wikipedia-as-accurate-as-Britannica/2100-1038_3-5997332.html

As I said, you're a selfish bastard.

I'm willing to put my life on the line so my family can have a better life. If I was selfish I would just do whats easy and not be involved in my daughters life and pay child support or whatever.

Like your butt buddy just before you, you appear to think that indirectly causing murder is somehow better than directly causing it. Newsflash: if you're in the military, you're responsible for those deaths.

Isnt butt buddy homophobic? If we can't say *****ing we probably shouldnt be able to say butt buddy right? Don't get me wrong I'm not TC I wont snitch im just fuckin with you. Is an EMT who treats a cop who's been shot responsible for the actions of the cop?

Let me guess: you hit up Wikipedia?

Nope, Associated Press.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/01/11/world/main6082241.shtml

Soldiers aren't "working class". They are above the working class in capitalism (better income, dishonest work, you know the drill), and there are no classes as such in communism. So no, soldiers aren't working class in any system.[/QUOTE]

So basically they're lumpen. I'm straight with that Huey said the lumpen proletariat were revolutionary.

Maybe you could put your ego aside for like half a second. Of course we can put politics aside for a while - but if we do so, there is no point coming onto this website. The principle here is that we do whatever we can to help the workers' struggle, not just spray red circled A's onto walls and proclaim we're the cool kids on the block.

You act like this website is like some big commitment to the cause. Maybe if the Left actually made a substantive difference in the US I wouldn't be in the position where I might have to join the military to provide stability for my family.

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 19:43

Yeah, the majority of Afghans oppose the taliban, thats why they still exist even though the US military has fought them for 10 years.

:rolleyes:

The actual data says otherwise. They've got the opium trade on lock, they don't need popular support.

RedSunRising

22nd April 2011, 19:48

Sorry I can't hear either of you over this cadence. :cool: Rock Steady Inf.

The international proletariat has much cooler marching songs ;)

3KknF_ceK-M

The Douche

22nd April 2011, 19:49

The actual data says otherwise. They've got the opium trade on lock, they don't need popular support.

The taliban banned opium production when they took power, it resumed when the regime fell with the invasion of the US.

Come on dude, you're really down the rabbit hole now. You're actually arguing in favor of the us military now. You concieve of the taliban as the enemy and you want them to loose the war cause they are the "bad guys".

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 19:58

The taliban banned opium production when they took power, it resumed when the regime fell with the invasion of the US.

Come on dude, you're really down the rabbit hole now. You're actually arguing in favor of the us military now. You concieve of the taliban as the enemy and you want them to loose the war cause they are the "bad guys".

I'm actually arguing in favor of the US military because the Taliban suck that bad. I don't support the US military or it's objectives in Afganistan at all, but it's certainly more progressive than the Taliban, and actually this position isn't some knee-jerk reaction, the more I learn about the Taliban the shittier I realize they are. And are you actually arguing in favor of the taliban regime as it was and not just the supposed "coalition" ? They resorted the opuim trade because they don't have the backing of imperialists any more. Instead of platitudes lets address real issues, here's why a Taliban loss would be progressive:
-The brutality of the Taliban regime when it was in power
-The fact that most Afgans oppose them
-The fact that they kill more of their own people than the imperialists do. Seriously, what the fuck good is an "Anti-imperialist" movement that's more brutal than the imperialists? And from everything I've seen you're wrong, they don't even see themselves as anti-imperialists but as Jihadists and holy warriors, I havent seen anything that supports the idea that it's actually a more broad coalition of nationalists like the Iraqi resistance.

IndependentCitizen

22nd April 2011, 19:59

People in the American armed services shouldn't be on revleft, they should be in a war criminals prison cell.

So, can the Mujahideen be considered war criminals, since they're broken many human rights? Probably not, they're fighting the bad guys right now. They're the shining beacon of resistance.

I dislike the idea of joining the military, but when you look at the economic reasons why many people join, do you blame them? When capitalists crash an economy, when coming by a job is hard, and you need to survive. You need to find a way out. What I personally find irritating is that the idea of joining it, immediately makes you some kind of hardcore, frontline, terrorist busting soldier. There's hundreds of jobs, many jobs within the army can set you up for when you're eligible to leave, you can actually go out and get a job because you have experience, and money in your pocket to support yourself.

What if a revlefter wants to join the army so they can get training in the medical field, so when they leave, they can work within hospitals? Getting grades ain't easy, especially when the capitalist system puts the middle and upper classes before you.

What if you want to work with animals? You can work within the veterinary services, because of the same reason.

If a revlefter was to join the infantry, I'd have a completely different opinion, however, what other options are there for some people?

#FF0000

22nd April 2011, 20:02

I'm actually arguing in favor of the US military because the Taliban suck that bad. I don't support the US military or it's objectives in Afganistan at all, but it's certainly more progressive than the Taliban, and actually this position isn't some knee-jerk reaction, the more I learn about the Taliban the shittier I realize they are. And are you actually arguing in favor of the taliban regime as it was and not just the supposed "coalition" ? They resorted the opuim trade because they don't have the backing of imperialists any more. Instead of platitudes lets address real issues, here's why a Taliban loss would be progressive:
-The brutality of the Taliban regime when it was in power
-The fact that most Afgans oppose them
-The fact that they kill more of their own people than the imperialists do. Seriously, what the fuck good is an "Anti-imperialist" movement that's more brutal than the imperialists? And from everything I've seen you're wrong, they don't even see themselves as anti-imperialists but as Jihadists and holy warriors, I havent seen anything that supports the idea that it's actually a more broad coalition of nationalists like the Iraqi resistance.

wow you are stupid

RedSunRising

22nd April 2011, 20:03

So basically they're lumpen. I'm straight with that Huey said the lumpen proletariat were revolutionary.

I regard Huey Newton as a great servant of the people. However he made some mistakes (we all do, especially its important to remember how young the Panthers were when they started out and how the state came down on them for the get go) and his view of the lumpen proletariat was a huge one that played no small role in the disintergration of the Black Panther Party. Lumpens will use revolutionary organizations as a cover for a parasitic criminality and as a means to obtain personal power. They tend to be out for number one, the very opposite of genuine revolutionaires and gravitate towards militantly reactionary politics, such as that of neo-nazies and ulster loyalism.

Of course the line between the lumpens and proletariat proper can be blurred at times.

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 20:04

So, can the Mujahideen be considered war criminals, since they're broken many human rights? Probably not, they're fighting the bad guys right now. They're the shining beacon of resistance.

I dislike the idea of joining the military, but when you look at the economic reasons why many people join, do you blame them? When capitalists crash an economy, when coming by a job is hard, and you need to survive. You need to find a way out. What I personally find irritating is that the idea of joining it, immediately makes you some kind of hardcore, frontline, terrorist busting soldier. There's hundreds of jobs, many jobs within the army can set you up for when you're eligible to leave, you can actually go out and get a job because you have experience, and money in your pocket to support yourself.

What if a revlefter wants to join the army so they can get training in the medical field, so when they leave, they can work within hospitals? Getting grades ain't easy, especially when the capitalist system puts the middle and upper classes before you.

What if you want to work with animals? You can work within the veterinary services, because of the same reason.

If a revlefter was to join the infantry, I'd have a completely different opinion, however, what other options are there for some people?

For real dude, and even though I think the Taliban is less progressive than the imperialists I have no interests in fighting an imperialist war in the first place, I just want a career I enjoy and some stability for my family. But lets not let that get in the way of our judgemental ass mindset I'm really a patriotic asshole who wants to go kill some Muslims right guys.

The Douche

22nd April 2011, 20:04

#FF0000

22nd April 2011, 20:06

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 20:06

I regard Huey Newton as a great servant of the people. However he made some mistakes (we all do, especially its important to remember how young the Panthers were when they started out and how the state came down on them for the get go) and his view of the lumpen proletariat was a huge one that played no small role in the disintergration of the Black Panther Party. Lumpens will use revolutionary organizations as a cover for a parasitic criminality and as a means to obtain personal power. They tend to be out for number one, the very opposite of genuine revolutionaires and gravitate towards militantly reactionary politics, such as that of neo-nazies and ulster loyalism.

Of course the line between the lumpens and proletariat proper can be blurred at times.

A large part of the Panthers were lumpens and they were the most revolutionary group in the US during the second half of the 20th century.

RedSunRising

22nd April 2011, 20:06

So basically they're lumpen. I'm straight with that Huey said the lumpen proletariat were revolutionary.

Indeed Imperialist Armies tend to draw on lumpen criminals, who prey on working class communities, and indeed neo-fascist gangs.

zmNaCaQR9lo

Pretty frightening when you think about it.

#FF0000

22nd April 2011, 20:07

A large part of the Panthers were lumpens and they were the most revolutionary group in the US during the second half of the 20th century.

i like how people think that any group that ever achieved anything, no matter how small, made no mistakes or something and talk like they're great models to follow

\/\/\/\/\/\/ ding ding ding

RedSunRising

22nd April 2011, 20:08

A large part of the Panthers were lumpens and they were the most revolutionary group in the US during the second half of the 20th century.

Less than you think were lumpens, and what was the result in letting lumpens in?

Thats the important thing.

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 20:10

hey it's one thing if it's out of necessity but it's still a shitty thing that is not something you ought to be proud of.

And you need to read a history book if you think a big country bombing a little country can ever be a good thing.

I dont think it's a good thing, as bad as it is though the Taliban have nothing to offer the Afgan people. As I've said before I would support a resistance movement that had some semblance of popular support but the Taliban are even worse than the US, which is saying something. Why has no one addressed the fact that most Afgans oppose them or the enormous civilian casualties they cause? Anyways throughout history there have been a few example of a "big country bombing a little country" being a good thing such as the North winning the civil war in the US or China invading Tibet. Actually I think the situation in Tibet is a pretty good parallel, as bad as Chinese imperialism is there, it's much better than Lama rule.

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 20:12

Less than you think were lumpens, and what was the result in letting lumpens in?

Thats the important thing.

Dude they didn't "let lumpens in" Huey himself was a lumpen, that nigga broke into houses to pay for his college. That's lumpen as fuck.

#FF0000

22nd April 2011, 20:12

I dont think it's a good thing, as bad as it is though the Taliban have nothing to offer the Afgan people. As I've said before I would support a resistance movement that had some semblance of popular support but the Taliban are even worse than the US, which is saying something. Why has no one addressed the fact that most Afgans oppose them or the enormous civilian casualties they cause? Anyways throughout history there have been a few example of a "big country bombing a little country" being a good thing such as the North winning the civil war in the US or China invading Tibet. Actually I think the situation in Tibet is a pretty good parallel, as bad as Chinese imperialism is there, it's much better than Lama rule.

You are wrong because you think the U.S. wouldn't install another group that is just as bad. I don't know why you would think. This is very basic history.

The Taliban only exist because of imperialism. You think the answer is more imperialism or something.

And you are with RAAN.

Man this is all a very funny thing to me.

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 20:13

But yeah the result of letting lumpens into the party was that they were a bunch of real niggas who werent afraid to bust guns at the police instead of some crybaby college leftists who dont do shit.

IndependentCitizen

22nd April 2011, 20:14

For real dude, and even though I think the Taliban is less progressive than the imperialists I have no interests in fighting an imperialist war in the first place, I just want a career I enjoy and some stability for my family. But lets not let that get in the way of our judgemental ass mindset I'm really a patriotic asshole who wants to go kill some Muslims right guys.

I think this is where my agreement ends, I don't think it should be a career when more productive careers would benefit you, and everyone more. I don't think I'd enjoy joining the British army, whatever section. I'd much rather try to get to the end of the echelon as possible, possibly by joining the nursing corps. But I'm not eligible for selection (blind in my right eye, booyah!).

I agree to some extent why people join, and their reasons purely because most people I've known to have joined have been due to the economy, and lack of jobs. None of them joined the infantry, they went into the royal engineers. And only because it gave them the necessary skills to get a job where'd you normally need qualifications. They have no intention to stay longer than the 4 years required. But I'm against a military career.

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 20:14

You are wrong because you think the U.S. wouldn't install another group that is just as bad. I don't know why you would think. This is very basic history.

Actually the government that the US has installed is really fucking bad, but not Taliban bad.

psgchisolm

22nd April 2011, 20:15

i like how people think that any group that ever achieved anything, no matter how small, made no mistakes or something and talk like they're great models to follow

\/\/\/\/\/\/ ding ding dingDoes that go for the Stalinists as well?

#FF0000

22nd April 2011, 20:15

But yeah the result of letting lumpens into the party was that they were a bunch of real niggas who werent afraid to bust guns at the police instead of some crybaby college leftists who dont do shit.

you are stupid

Does that go for the Stalinists as well?

it goes for everyone

The Douche

22nd April 2011, 20:16

A large part of the Panthers were lumpens and they were the most revolutionary group in the US during the second half of the 20th century.

What do you think the panthers would do to you if you told them you were gonna join the army?

#FF0000

22nd April 2011, 20:16

Actually the government that the US has installed is really fucking bad, but not Taliban bad.

but you realize the US installed the taliban right

RedSunRising

22nd April 2011, 20:17

Anyone see the contradiction between bigging up the Black Panthers and being a member of the armed wing of American Imperialism at the same time? :confused:

Edit; okay someone did.

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 20:18

The Taliban only exist because of imperialism. You think the answer is more imperialism or something.

And you are with RAAN.

Man this is all a very funny thing to me.

No the answer is a progressive movement against both the US and the Taliban. I'm not supporting the US, and I would support a progressive resistance movement. I don't support the US I'm just saying the Taliban is worse. As for RAAN theres not a RAAN chapter in my area so I'm not involved in any meaningful way but I support their politics and actions. I should probably take that down but its funny to see how mad you guys get because of them.

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 20:19

but you realize the US installed the taliban right

Right which is why its hilarious when people try to make them out to be some sort of awesome anti-imperialist movement.

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 20:20

Anyone see the contradiction between bigging up the Black Panthers and being a member of the armed wing of American Imperialism at the same time? :confused:

Edit; okay someone did.

Yeah, if I was trying to justify my involvement politically sure.

RedSunRising

22nd April 2011, 20:20

http://warisacrime.org/content/wikileaks-reveals-us-tax-dollars-fund-child-sex-slavery-afghanistan

Yeah Freedom!!!

#FF0000

22nd April 2011, 20:20

As for RAAN theres not a RAAN chapter in my area so I'm not involved in any meaningful way but I support their politics and actions. I should probably take that down but its funny to see how mad you guys get because of them.

no one's mad. i'm just wondering how you're joining the army but talk up the black panthers while repping RAAN.

The Douche

22nd April 2011, 20:20

The idea that being non-combat arms somehow makes it "ok" is so stupid.

The purpose of the military is to kill the enemy, thats why the military exists, and while only combat arms have this as a job description all different kinds of units get engaged, and furthermore everybody, even the medics, have as their job, to support the combat arms and make sure that the infantry can go out and kill people.

If you're not doing the killing yourself you are directly facilitating it.

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 20:21

What do you think the panthers would do to you if you told them you were gonna join the army?

If there were panthers in my neighborhood I wouldn't have to join the army.

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 20:23

no one's mad. i'm just wondering how you're joining the army but talk up the black panthers while repping RAAN.

For the millionth time I know it's not politically defensible. It will be out of necessity if I even do it.

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 20:24

RedSunRising

22nd April 2011, 20:26

If there were panthers in my neighborhood I wouldn't have to join the army.

You being silly there, is there were Panthers in your neighbourhood all economic pressure on working people would vanish over night???

The Douche

22nd April 2011, 20:26

For the millionth time I know it's not politically defensible. It will be out of necessity if I even do it.

hahahahahahahahahaha

Get your story straight, cause you've just spent quite a bit of time defending it politically, by talking (with sources like CBS to back you up) about how bad the taliban is and how much better the army is. You even said you hope the US wins, which used to be a restrictable position around here.

How about the factory workers who make the bombs?

Not employed by the imperialist state.

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 20:27

End of conversation, you picked your side. I know mine, and its not with imperialism.

So if I said "I support capitalism over fascism" I'm a capitalist? It's the same logic. Obviously I don't support imperialism, I support the resistance in Isreal, Ireland, Iraq and wherever else, but there are a few instances where imperialism is more progressive than the resistance (Afganistan and Tibet come to mind).

RedSunRising

22nd April 2011, 20:27

no one's mad. i'm just wondering how you're joining the army but talk up the black panthers while repping RAAN.

Arent RAAN madly anti-Leninist?

Werent the Black Panthers anti-revisionists who looked to the PRC?

psgchisolm

22nd April 2011, 20:28

Not employed by the imperialist state.lol defense contracts. What about Civ contractors that do work on military bases?

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 20:31

hahahahahahahahahaha

Get your story straight, cause you've just spent quite a bit of time defending it politically, by talking (with sources like CBS to back you up) about how bad the taliban is and how much better the army is. You even said you hope the US wins, which used to be a restrictable position around here.

My position on the Taliban has nothing to do with whether or not I join the military. I love how you act like I'm saying the army is good, even though I've repeatedly said that the US military is fucked up, but the Taliban is worse. I said US victory over the taliban would be progressive, but if the AFO or whoever else picks up steam and defeats the US, that would be more progressive. I love how you don't address my actual points about the Taliban and won't even defend your support of them except for with political platitudes.

Not employed by the imperialist state.

So who you're employed by determines your class loyalties? I guess everyone who works in the private sector are capitalists then.

The Douche

22nd April 2011, 20:32

So if I said "I support capitalism over fascism" I'm a capitalist? It's the same logic. Obviously I don't support imperialism, I support the resistance in Isreal, Ireland, Iraq and wherever else, ).

You are an idiot.

Why do you support Hexbollah and Hamas dude? They murder innocent civilians and they want to create an islamic state! Why do you support the IRA they're catholic reactionaries who want a papal state in ireland! Why do you support the Iraqi resistance, they're part of Al Quaeda!

Obviously you don't support imperialism? What the fuck are you talking about?!

but there are a few instances where imperialism is more progressive than the resistance (Afganistan and Tibet come to mind

Talk about a serious fucking disconnect! You can't even keep your reactionary politics straight for one paragraph!

The Douche

22nd April 2011, 20:33

So who you're employed by determines your class loyalties? I guess everyone who works in the private sector are capitalists then.

So since soldiers and cops work for the state they're socialist, since they're employed (i.e. paid for) by the people?

Fuck, you're dumb.

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 20:33

Arent RAAN madly anti-Leninist?

Werent the Black Panthers anti-revisionists who looked to the PRC?

Most Panthers were nationalists with more a more broad anti-capitalist viewpoint compared the orthodox maoist leadership. Regardless I appreciate Huey's political philosophy of race and capitalism but I disagree with his Leninism.

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 20:35

So since soldiers and cops work for the state they're socialist, since they're employed (i.e. paid for) by the people?

Fuck, you're dumb.

Holy shit dude I was being sarcastic and making fun of your viewpoint. You said that factory workers who make bombs arent imperialists because they arent employed by the imperialist state. I was saying well if that's true I guess it follows that workers are capitalist because they are employed by capitalists, which is ridiculous.

RedSunRising

22nd April 2011, 20:39

Most Panthers were nationalists with more a more broad anti-capitalist viewpoint compared the orthodox maoist leadership. Regardless I appreciate Huey's political philosophy of race and capitalism but I disagree with his Leninism.

Nah they sold the red book and Huey went to the People's Republic of China when he had the chance and not to Cuba or the USSR, those within them who had an idealogly were Marxist-Leninists. They were more anti-colonialist than nationalist as such, and towards the end they even watered down the anti-colonialist/Black nation national liberation line. There is a world of difference between them and the majority of black nationalists around today.

Though in fairness Stokey Carmichael was pretty nationalist.

The Douche

22nd April 2011, 20:39

Holy shit dude I was being sarcastic and making fun of your viewpoint. You said that factory workers who make bombs arent imperialists because they arent employed by the imperialist state. I was saying well if that's true I guess it follows that workers are capitalist because they are employed by capitalists, which is ridiculous.

Dude, think about what you're saying and what I'm saying, let me break it down, crayola style for you...

A soldier is employed by the imperialist state to enforce imperialism.

A worker is employed by a private corporation to create a product. (in your example, a bomb)

The worker does not create or enforce capitalism, so he is not a capitalist. The soldier on the other hand enforces imperialism and creates imperial markets, so he is an imperialist.

Ele'ill

22nd April 2011, 20:40

Are you the worker engaging in some part of the manufacturing of munitions to be used by organized crime or are you a willing participant in organized crime?

RedSunRising

22nd April 2011, 20:44

Its easier to leave a job making bombs than leave army. I know someone who carved up his arms in order to get a dishonourable discharge from the army. One of the sad things in this world is the way that social workers push the army option on basically kids in messed up situations.

psgchisolm

22nd April 2011, 20:45

lol defense contracts. What about Civ contractors that do work on military bases?Still waiting for an answer for this.

Ele'ill

22nd April 2011, 20:46

Still waiting for an answer for this.

Give an example.

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 20:46

You are an idiot.

Why do you support Hexbollah and Hamas dude? They murder innocent civilians and they want to create an islamic state! Why do you support the IRA they're catholic reactionaries who want a papal state in ireland! Why do you support the Iraqi resistance, they're part of Al Quaeda!

I support the PLO and not Hamas and Hezbollah. The IRA are progressive socialists. The resistance in Iraq are a vague group of nationalists, but I would oppose the ones that do have connections to Al Quaeda or are Islamists. By the way you still havent addressed what I said about the Taliban in detail and you havent supported your position at all you've just threw around insults and generalizations.

Obviously you don't support imperialism? What the fuck are you talking about?!

Talk about a serious fucking disconnect! You can't even keep your reactionary politics straight for one paragraph!

Dude what the fuck everythings not black and white in the world. During world war II the leftist line was to support capitalist nations over fascism. This wasnt because we support capitalism, we want to destroy capitalism, but we'll support liberal capitalist over fascists any day. I take the same line on imperialism. I'll support a progressive resistance to imperialism anywhere, including afganistan, but in the rare cases where the resistance is actually more reactionary than the imperialists (Afganistan, Tibet) I'll accept that and hope for a good alternative to imperialism to develope.

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 20:48

Dude, think about what you're saying and what I'm saying, let me break it down, crayola style for you...

A soldier is employed by the imperialist state to enforce imperialism.

A worker is employed by a private corporation to create a product. (in your example, a bomb)

The worker does not create or enforce capitalism, so he is not a capitalist. The soldier on the other hand enforces imperialism and creates imperial markets, so he is an imperialist.

So what's the difference between an army medic and like the red cross? Or is the red cross imperialist too?

The Douche

22nd April 2011, 20:49

So what's the difference between an army medic and like the red cross? Or is the red cross imperialist too?

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Yo, ban this troll.

RedSunRising

22nd April 2011, 20:50

The IRA are progressive socialists.

Which IRA? If you are talking about the Provisionals who dont exist anymore they contained everything from basically clerical fascists to social democrats to Maoists to people who called themselves anarchists, they were a real pot porrui of whatever you are having yourself. Which is a large reason why they ultimately failed.

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 20:50

Nah they sold the red book and Huey went to the People's Republic of China when he had the chance and not to Cuba or the USSR, those within them who had an idealogly were Marxist-Leninists. They were more anti-colonialist than nationalist as such, and towards the end they even watered down the anti-colonialist/Black nation national liberation line. There is a world of difference between them and the majority of black nationalists around today.

Though in fairness Stokey Carmichael was pretty nationalist.

I'm talking about the politics of the rank and file though, I'm well aware of Hueys Maoism. The politics of the rank and file panthers was all over the place.

RedSunRising

22nd April 2011, 20:52

Also are you saying that Imperialism is fine as long as the resistance against isnt progressive?

Thats a pretty weird position to take.

RedSunRising

22nd April 2011, 20:53

I'm talking about the politics of the rank and file though, I'm well aware of Hueys Maoism. The politics of the rank and file panthers was all over the place.

It was less all over the place than you imagine. I mean they read Mao, they sold a newspaper that supported Maoism, seriously come on.

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 20:53

Which IRA? If you are talking about the Provisionals who dont exist anymore they contained everything from basically clerical fascists to social democrats to Maoists to people who called themselves anarchists, they were a real pot porrui of whatever you are having yourself. Which is a large reason why they ultimately failed.

I don't know a whole lot about the movement, but like anywhere else I'd support the progressives and oppose the reactionaries. I wouldn't support clerical fascists over the British just so the boss class could be Irish, but I was under the impression that it was largely a progressive movement.

psgchisolm

22nd April 2011, 20:56

Give an example.Civilian contractors in general. They are all paid by the gov to work for the military doing medical secretary work ect. All that are civilians but are contracted by the gov to work for the military. REGARDLESS of what the job may be.

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 20:56

It was less all over the place than you imagine. I mean they read Mao, they sold a newspaper that supported Maoism, seriously come on.

Sure the leadership read a lot of Mao and they had some classes about his books, but they weren't really a orthodox maoist group at all. The 10 point program and most of their really basic political works didn't say shit about Maoism and Maoism served as more of a strategy than an ideology for them. The rank and file weren't as Maoist as the leadership.

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 20:58

Also are you saying that Imperialism is fine as long as the resistance against isnt progressive?

Thats a pretty weird position to take.

I'm not saying it's "fine" any more that capitalism is fine compared to fascism. I think in some instances imperialism is better than the alternative. Are you telling me that you think Lama rule should be restored in Tibet?

RedSunRising

22nd April 2011, 20:59

The point is you united the Provisionals was their opposition to the British state. Thats usually what unites anti-colonial/anti-imperialist resistance. The resistance in what ever form it takes and whom ever it emerges originates in the fact of colonialism and Imperialism. I dont big up the Taliban but the only thing that US presence does there is strenghten them, because they are the ones fighting back against the Imperialists.

RedSunRising

22nd April 2011, 21:00

Sure the leadership read a lot of Mao and they had some classes about his books, but they weren't really a orthodox maoist group at all. The 10 point program and most of their really basic political works didn't say shit about Maoism and Maoism served as more of a strategy than an ideology for them. The rank and file weren't as Maoist as the leadership.

Uh they were applying the Maoist "Mass line".

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 21:01

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Yo, ban this troll.

Yeah bro dont respond to any of my points or anything. I dont know shit about the red cross so maybe that was a bad example. Do you think theres a difference between civilian firefighters who work on military bases and military firefighters?

The Douche

22nd April 2011, 21:01

Pro-imperialist anarchist who wants to join the army and has a hard on for the BPP.

http://retrolife.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451a4dc69e20147e0e6954f970b-320wi

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 21:05

Pro-imperialist anarchist who wants to join the army and has a hard on for the BPP.

http://retrolife.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451a4dc69e20147e0e6954f970b-320wi

Theocracy supporting left-communist/maoist/something who has issues with reading comprehension

http://paradoxdgn.com/junk/avatars/trollface.jpg

Ele'ill

22nd April 2011, 21:07

Yeah bro dont respond to any of my points or anything. I dont know shit about the red cross so maybe that was a bad example. Do you think theres a difference between civilian firefighters who work on military bases and military firefighters?

Combat medics are combat oriented. Military medical positions elsewhere help capitalism's thugs get better to resume their directly ordered thuggery.

RedSunRising

22nd April 2011, 21:07

I'm not saying it's "fine" any more that capitalism is fine compared to fascism. I think in some instances imperialism is better than the alternative. Are you telling me that you think Lama rule should be restored in Tibet?

No I dont want Lama rule restored in Tibet. The Tibet question is a whole complex can of worms, as is the war effort of the capitalist ally states in WWII. However we know for sure that US Imperialism in Afghanistan is as bad as if not worse than Taliban (hint the US brought back drug production- some people think that they went into Afghanistan in order to insure the heroin supply, hard drugs being a necesscity for the system in late period capitalism- and they brought back child prositution, and the worse tryanny of war lords).

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 21:08

Uh they were applying the Maoist "Mass line".

Eh not really from what I've seen they were influenced by mao but they were a whole different type of communist since they included black power thought into their program.

RedSunRising

22nd April 2011, 21:09

Theocracy supporting left-communist/maoist/something who has issues with reading comprehension

Uh where is he bigging up the Taliban, do you not understand that its possible to oppose US Imperialism in Afghanistan without bigging up the Taliban?

psgchisolm

22nd April 2011, 21:09

Still waiting for an answer for this.Still waiting lol

Ele'ill

22nd April 2011, 21:09

There was a lengthy conversation about this topic already done in OI recently- if someone can dig it up that would be fantastic so I can just copypasta my replies.

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 21:10

No I dont want Lama rule restored in Tibet. The Tibet question is a whole complex can of worms, as is the war effort of the capitalist ally states in WWII. However we know for sure that US Imperialism in Afghanistan is as bad as if not worse than Taliban (hint the US brought back drug production- some people think that they went into Afghanistan in order to insure the heroin supply, hard drugs being a necesscity for the system in late period capitalism- and they brought back child prositution, and the worse tryanny of war lords).

I'm not defending the US government in afganistan, in this thread alone I've said at least three times its fucked up, but bringing the Taliban back will only make things worse, we need a real anti-imperialist movement.

Kamos

22nd April 2011, 21:10

http://news.cnet.com/Study-Wikipedia-as-accurate-as-Britannica/2100-1038_3-5997332.html

The hell is that? At the end it says:
"To Britannica officials, however, the Nature results showed that Wikipedia still has a way to go. "The (Nature) article is saying that Wikipedia has a third more errors" than Britannica, said Jorge Cauz, president of Encyclopedia Britannica."
So is it better now or not? Also, studies or not, I've read Wiki articles before, and I've seen outrageous BS on it already. Nothing quite like what I've seen for myself.

I'm willing to put my life on the line so my family can have a better life. If I was selfish I would just do whats easy and not be involved in my daughters life and pay child support or whatever.

You'

Isnt [a certain expression] homophobic? If we can't say *****ing we probably shouldnt be able to say [that expression] right?

Can't we? That's good to know, thanks. The term's been pretty much stripped of meaning as far as I know, but in case it's not, I don't want to seem like I'm being derogatory towards certain groups of people...

Is an EMT who treats a cop who's been shot responsible for the actions of the cop?

No, but there's a difference since the military guy who's on supply actively cooperates with the soldiers while the medic doesn't. (And the latter are oathbound anyway, which might trump that anyway.)[/QUOTE]

You act like this website is like some big commitment to the cause. Maybe if the Left actually made a substantive difference in the US I wouldn't be in the position where I might have to join the military to provide stability for my family.

Well, there aren't many big commitments to the leftist cause, so let's value what we have.

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 21:12

Uh where is he bigging up the Taliban, do you not understand that its possible to oppose US Imperialism in Afghanistan without bigging up the Taliban?

He said he supported the taliban. I understand it's possible to oppose US Imperialism in Afganistan without supporting the Taliban, thats the fucking line I take.

The Douche

22nd April 2011, 21:17

I'm not defending the US government in afganistan, in this thread alone I've said at least three times its fucked up, but bringing the Taliban back will only make things worse, we need a real anti-imperialist movement.

Liar.

I'm actually arguing in favor of the US military

Those are your words, from this thread.

I understand it's possible to oppose US Imperialism in Afganistan without supporting the Taliban, thats the fucking line I take.

No its not, see your words, above.

He said he supported the taliban.

Quote my support for the taliban. Outside the context of supportting their military victory over the imperialists.

RedSunRising

22nd April 2011, 21:20

He said he supported the taliban. I understand it's possible to oppose US Imperialism in Afganistan without supporting the Taliban, thats the fucking line I take.

Well facts would strongly suggest they are the lesser evil.

I wouldnt oppose their military actions against Imperialists.

RedSunRising

22nd April 2011, 21:22

Off topic but its interesting that both the establishment and present day black nationalists play up the nationalist side of the BPP and ignore its anti-revisionist Communist side.

psgchisolm

22nd April 2011, 21:22

Well facts would strongly suggest they are the lesser evil.

I wouldnt oppose their military actions against Imperialists.:laugh:

btw I'm still awaiting an answer for my question.

RedSunRising

22nd April 2011, 21:24

lol defense contracts. What about Civ contractors that do work on military bases?

More of a gray area but under certain situations I would consider legitimate targets.

The Douche

22nd April 2011, 21:27

:laugh:

btw I'm still awaiting an answer for my question.

Military contractors, engaged in active operations against the working class? What kind of position do you think we revolutionaries have on them?

Non-combat contractors? Should cease their support of imperialism. Just like we call for soldiers to stop their service of imperialism (refuse to deploy, leave the military at the first opportunity), and for the police to stop their service to the bosses by leaving their positions.

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 21:33

Liar.

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb146/dmart76/brick-loud-noises-b.jpg

Those are your words, from this thread.

Yeah I would support the victory of the US over the taliban but I support the victory of the Afag people over both.

Quote my support for the taliban. Outside the context of supportting their military victory over the imperialists.

And their military victory would mean a return to the way it was when they ran the country in the first place, I fail to see how that benefits the working class. Quote my support for imperialism outside of their military victory over the Taliban. And quote where I said I want to join the army.

Ele'ill

22nd April 2011, 21:34

This thread isn't a chit chat thread anymore- enough of the memes.

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 21:37

Military contractors, engaged in active operations against the working class? What kind of position do you think we revolutionaries have on them?

Non-combat contractors? Should cease their support of imperialism. Just like we call for soldiers to stop their service of imperialism (refuse to deploy, leave the military at the first opportunity), and for the police to stop their service to the bosses by leaving their positions.

So the "anti imperialist" line is that the civilian who is a cook in an army cafeteria is as bad as a cop or a soldier.

Ele'ill

22nd April 2011, 21:38

So the "anti imperialist" line is that the civilian who is a cook in an army cafeteria is as bad as a cop or a soldier.

They enlisted and directly support ruling class interest. They are the police abroad.

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 21:39

Off topic but its interesting that both the establishment and present day black nationalists play up the nationalist side of the BPP and ignore its anti-revisionist Communist side.

Actually I think they were really significant because they were one of the first explictly anti capitalist nationalist groups.

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 21:40

They enlisted and directly support ruling class interest. They are the police abroad.

re read that post and tell me if you missed anything. (Hint: Civilians dont "enlist")

psgchisolm

22nd April 2011, 21:44

Civilian who enlists and becomes a cook is not as bad as a civilian who doesn't enlist and is also a cook? Both do the same job in the same place getting paid by the same people.

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 21:45

Combat medics are combat oriented. Military medical positions elsewhere help capitalism's thugs get better to resume their directly ordered thuggery.

So your position is to let wounded soldiers in hospitals die? Are civilian medical professionals who care for soldiers just as guilty?

psgchisolm

22nd April 2011, 21:46

So your position is to let wounded soldiers in hospitals die? Are civilian medical professionals who care for soldiers just as guilty?
A better analogy is an EMT giving aid to a wounded cop.

RedSunRising

22nd April 2011, 21:46

Actually I think they were really significant because they were one of the first explictly anti capitalist nationalist groups.

Nope fail.

The African Blood Brotherhood which merged with the Communist Party USA in the early 20s when it was very much a revolutionary organization was started even before World War I. The CPUSA held a pretty "black nationalist" line until the late 50s also.

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 21:47

Civilian who enlists and becomes a cook is not as bad as a civilian who doesn't enlist and is also a cook? Both do the same job in the same place getting paid by the same people.

Eh I didnt even know the army had its own cooks. I guess its about the same to be honest then, technically it should be worse but I have a hard time considering pogs as guilty of being imperialists as people in the infantry.

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 21:49

Nope fail.

The African Blood Brotherhood which merged with the Communist Party USA in the early 20s when it was very much a revolutionary organization was started even before World War I. The CPUSA held a pretty "black nationalist" line until the late 50s also.

I thought the CPUSA had segregated unions and shit in the 20s. And the African Blood Brotherhood was very small, so the Panthers were the first of such movements of any political significance.

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 21:51

A better analogy is an EMT giving aid to a wounded cop.

No cause she was talking about non-combat medics.

RedSunRising

22nd April 2011, 21:55

I thought the CPUSA had segregated unions and shit in the 20s. And the African Blood Brotherhood was very small, so the Panthers were the first of such movements of any political significance.

It wasnt. It was very underground though. It was bigger than the Panthers.

Link about the CPUSA having segregated unions in the 20s? I dont think there was a CPUSA union in the 20s.

The Douche

22nd April 2011, 22:20

Quote my support for imperialism outside of their military victory over the Taliban.

Do you know what imperialism is?

Do you know what follows on the heels of your american heros' military victory in Afghanistan? I believe you do, considering you said US imperialism is better for the Afghans, and that you support it.

Personally, I think the Afghans should be free to decide for themselves what is best.

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 22:33

Do you know what imperialism is?

Do you know what follows on the heels of your american heros' military victory in Afghanistan? I believe you do, considering you said US imperialism is better for the Afghans, and that you support it..

More of the same would follow the Americans victory. You always take everything I say at least a little bit out of context, what did I say imperialism was better than for the Afgans? Did I ever say imperialism was good? No I said it was better than one particular reactionary regime. And why do you insist on acting like I think the US is so great and really justified in imperialism, I've said over and over again it's bad, but not Taliban bad. Again you will not directly address the things I've said, you keep bringing up new shit, trying to change the debate. At least admit you were wrong when you said I wanted to join the army if you're actually interested in having an honest discussion.

Personally, I think the Afghans should be free to decide for themselves what is best

So then you would support the US over the Taliban like most Afgans.

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 22:39

cmoney do you support Lama rule in Tibet?

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 22:41

It wasnt. It was very underground though. It was bigger than the Panthers.

Link about the CPUSA having segregated unions in the 20s? I dont think there was a CPUSA union in the 20s.

Wasnt the AFL-CIO segregated back then? I could be wrong but I remember reading something by Kurt Vonnegut about how back in the 30s the Communist Party and AFL-CIO pretty much didnt do shit for black people and communist party meetings were all white.

The Douche

22nd April 2011, 22:42

So then you would support the US over the Taliban like most Afgans.

This is a false assertion on your part. The majority of Afghans do not support US intervention.

Did I ever say imperialism was good? No I said it was better than one particular reactionary regime.

You said you wanted imperialism to succeed in Afghanistan.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/restrict-727goon-and-t153515/index.html

That is the link to a thread I created to call for the restriction of posters 727goon for his pro-imperialist position and for Psgchisolm for his pro-US army trolling.

Any users who agree, feel free to contribute with further evidence, 727goon and Psgchisolm, you guys might want to get links together to demonstrate how I have misunderstood your posts.

The arguement in this thread is over as far as I'm concerned, there is nothing I have to say to pro-imperialists, and if I wanted to talk to them I would go to OI, or call an army buddy.

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 22:50

good to know you cant back your shit up so you had to cry to the mods to try and get me restricted.

RedSunRising

22nd April 2011, 22:53

Wasnt the AFL-CIO segregated back then? I could be wrong but I remember reading something by Kurt Vonnegut about how back in the 30s the Communist Party and AFL-CIO pretty much didnt do shit for black people and communist party meetings were all white.

The AFL-CIO has a crap history in terms of people of colour. However to equate it with the Communist Party is just false. And yet the Communist Party was hardcore black "nationalist" until the 50s when submitted under the leadership of the civil rights movement.

I suggest that you read "Black Bolshevik" by Harry Haywood.

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 22:58

The AFL-CIO has a crap history in terms of people of colour. However to equate it with the Communist Party is just false. And yet the Communist Party was hardcore black "nationalist" until the 50s when submitted under the leadership of the civil rights movement.

I suggest that you read "Black Bolshevik" by Harry Haywood.

Alright I will. Werent the AFL-CIO affiliated with the Communist Party back then though?

The Douche

22nd April 2011, 22:59

good to know you cant back your shit up so you had to cry to the mods to try and get me restricted.

If I really have misconstrued your politics and ideas that will get sorted out in that thread.

My word is certainly not gold, and certainly not on this board.

RedSunRising

22nd April 2011, 23:00

Alright I will. Werent the AFL-CIO affiliated with the Communist Party back then though?

NO.

RedSunRising

22nd April 2011, 23:01

I think you are getting the CP-USA confused with the Socialist Party.

727Goon

22nd April 2011, 23:01

whatever man. at least you didnt outright lie on there like you did here when you said i wanted to join the army.

Threetune

23rd April 2011, 00:50

There was a former marine with us durign the sit in.
a few of my freinds are or were enlisted at some point.
for the most part, its almost easier to talk to vets and active duty types, you dont even have to talk about the military.

also, almost every combat vet i have talked to has questioned the role they played in the middle east. but, there are also some of those who are still staunchly conservative, pro-war, and pro-imperialist. same thing goes for workers. some are unconscious, some are conscious, and some consciously side with capital.

I was a Brit soldier. I joined when I was 18 unemployed and looking for adventures and personal improvement not understanding anything. When I left the army I became a communist organiser and class fighter in the unions against the corrupt union bosses in the building industry. Be a communist, you will never have a bad night’s sleep!

RedSunRising

24th April 2011, 00:08

I was a Brit soldier. I joined when I was 18 unemployed and looking for adventures and personal improvement not understanding anything. When I left the army I became a communist organiser and class fighter in the unions against the corrupt union bosses in the building industry. Be a communist, you will never have a bad night’s sleep!

The most effective action of the Provisional IRA was carried out by an ex-English soldier, the Free Wales Army was led by someone who was in the British Army at the time.

Comrade J

24th April 2011, 04:42

Scary Monster

24th April 2011, 23:25

Scary monster, you sound like a dweeb. Nobody is impressed. I don't pity you or your choice to join the army. People like you make other people think its ok to join the army, its not, it is not ok to serve imperialism.

You put your comfort above the freedom of others. You're not even sorry for it.

Lol first of all, what is making everyone think im looking for approval from u buttmunchers? im tryin to have a good convo and state my situation and why i joined. ive been looking damn hard for a job for about a years and a half after i moved, but no luck. ive done all sorts of crappy odd jobs. i simply got tired of seeing my folks' situation get worse and worse, especially after my moms wages got garnished. second, cmoney, arent u still in infantry or some shit? you should be the last person to say 'its not ok to serve imperialism :lol: itd be ok if it was just your opinion, but damn, whos the dweeb, when youre the most directly involved than any of us. what an idiot

im just doin what i gotta do. its just the damn national guard, however wrong you think it is. my unit probably wont even get deployed by the time im through with the military in 3 years. im not just gonna barely live off of welfare for probably years, hoping a communist party will gain political power or some shit. i do contribute to my community, no matter what situation im in tho. all i need is a chance to get a leg up. i dont have time or money like you guys apparently do, seeing how y'all are able to constantly post on this forum.

727Goon

25th April 2011, 00:57

When goon and pisshole get restricted, we should move this thread to OI.

And lol at saying cmoney is "crying to the mods". It's simply that this is a site for communists and anarchists, not pretenders without principle.

Stalinists people on here defend soviet imperialism outright and call it progressive, but I'm somehow this big imperialist because even though I oppose the invasion of Afganistan I don't support the Taliban or Taliban military victory.

psgchisolm

25th April 2011, 01:39

Lol first of all, what is making everyone think im looking for approval from u buttmunchers? im tryin to have a good convo and state my situation and why i joined. ive been looking damn hard for a job for about a years and a half after i moved, but no luck. ive done all sorts of crappy odd jobs. i simply got tired of seeing my folks' situation get worse and worse, especially after my moms wages got garnished. second, cmoney, arent u still in infantry or some shit? you should be the last person to say 'its not ok to serve imperialism :lol: itd be ok if it was just your opinion, but damn, whos the dweeb, when youre the most directly involved than any of us. what an idiotHypocrisy at it's finest. he tells everyone else how bad it is to join the military and called for restriction when he did it knowing full well he'd be supporting imperialism. He literally called restricting me the responsible thing to do, but he comes on revleft DURING HIS DEPLOYMENT and doesn't say shit about it then? He's just been evading his restriction which is bs. He's still enlisted so he should be restricted until his enlistment is over.

im just doin what i gotta do. its just the damn national guard, however wrong you think it is. my unit probably wont even get deployed by the time im through with the military in 3 years. im not just gonna barely live off of welfare for probably years, hoping a communist party will gain political power or some shit. i do contribute to my community, no matter what situation im in tho. all i need is a chance to get a leg up. i dont have time or money like you guys apparently do, seeing how y'all are able to constantly post on this forum.This. Ironically cmoney gets all his money from supporting imperialism himself. So I guess it's ok to ride others for joining the military as long as it isn't him.

Fuck I don't care about that douchebag pseudo-leftist sellout. If solidarity is snitching then he's fucking marx reincarnate.

727Goon

25th April 2011, 02:23

Hypocrisy at it's finest. he tells everyone else how bad it is to join the military and called for restriction when he did it knowing full well he'd be supporting imperialism. He literally called restricting me the responsible thing to do, but he comes on revleft DURING HIS DEPLOYMENT and doesn't say shit about it then? He's just been evading his restriction which is bs. He's still enlisted so he should be restricted until his enlistment is over.
This. Ironically cmoney gets all his money from supporting imperialism himself. So I guess it's ok to ride others for joining the military as long as it isn't him.

I think he spoke out against the war while he was on deployment so that's kind of a shitty argument. The issue isn't people being in the military necesarily but acting like its a good thing and encouraging it. cmoney might be a hypocrite because he advocates people refusing to deploy even though he deployed himself though.

Comrade J

25th April 2011, 02:36

727Goon

25th April 2011, 02:46

Goon, have you ever seen the documentary Restrepo, about American troops in Afghanistan, or better yet the documentary Armadillo?

I highly recommend you get Armadillo, it's a documentary filmed on a 6 month tour with Danish troops in Helmand, and I don't see how anyone could watch that and still want to go there. It's a miserable, frightening place with countless ambushes, the locals don't want them there and the Taliban in the area are ex-Mujahideen who fought the Soviets there in the same places, so they have the upper hand. Watch that and see if you still think it's a worthy cause, or whether everyone should just get the f*ck out.

If you love your family so much, do something worthwhile that they can be proud of in years to come, rather than risking death in some war that the US is destined to lose and withdraw from in humiliation, like Vietnam.

I dont think it's a worthy cause, and I really don't want to go. The military is a last resort, and who knows maybe the economy will pick up by the time I'm certified as a paramedic. I've decided to at least work my way through paramedic school before I look at the military so it's years away. Its sucks though cause I'm pretty much being supported by my girls parents cause I'm pretty much under-employed right now and I can't get shit hours because business is really slow at the shop I work at and the only reason the owner doesnt just fire me is cause hes known me forever. So that sucks but it is what it is I guess. I just want a stable job doing something I like really.

#FF0000

25th April 2011, 06:00

Hypocrisy at it's finest. he tells everyone else how bad it is to join the military and called for restriction when he did it knowing full well he'd be supporting imperialism. He literally called restricting me the responsible thing to do, but he comes on revleft DURING HIS DEPLOYMENT and doesn't say shit about it then? He's just been evading his restriction which is bs. He's still enlisted so he should be restricted until his enlistment is over.
This. Ironically cmoney gets all his money from supporting imperialism himself. So I guess it's ok to ride others for joining the military as long as it isn't him.

Fuck I don't care about that douchebag pseudo-leftist sellout. If solidarity is snitching then he's fucking marx reincarnate.

you are doing the same thing. the difference is you think it's a-okay to be in the military and defend it while cmoney pretty much regards his decision to join the military as a mistake (I think?).

Meanwhile you were p. much pro-military from the day you joined up and followed Lt. Ferret like a puppy.

StalinFanboy

25th April 2011, 06:09

727Goon

25th April 2011, 08:42

Dude I find it hard to believe that it will be super hard to find a job as a paramedic.

Could be but what with budget cuts and shit the public sector jobs are going first and fire and rescue are the first to go. Crazy ass tea party crackers fuckin up my job opportunities...

black magick hustla

25th April 2011, 09:11

ok you can join and maybe help kill some fuckers and possibly be killed but you need to acknowledge yourself as cannon fodder. dont sing the fucking songs of the bosses when they send you to sacrifice your psychological and physical health bro. you are betraying yourself by just willingly sayin you are fighting for justice against islamist fundamentalists or w/e you are simply some poor black fucker sent to do the dirty work of imperialist bosses and there is nothing much beyond that. some people gotta do what they gotta do to put food on the table but you at the very least dont have to defend it and say ok because you are betraying yourselff moreso than you betray anybody else

727Goon

25th April 2011, 09:14

nah dude I said fuck both sides, my opinion on the taliban has nothing to do with if I join up I don't hink the US should be in Afganistan. I said the US winning would be slightly more progressive than the Taliban winning, but the US withdrawing is the best option.

727Goon

25th April 2011, 09:30

but yeah if I do end up joining I'll pretty much be cannon fodderin an imperialist war im not denying that. what are you gonna do though.

Comrade J

25th April 2011, 13:11

I dont think it's a worthy cause, and I really don't want to go. The military is a last resort, and who knows maybe the economy will pick up by the time I'm certified as a paramedic. I've decided to at least work my way through paramedic school before I look at the military so it's years away. Its sucks though cause I'm pretty much being supported by my girls parents cause I'm pretty much under-employed right now and I can't get shit hours because business is really slow at the shop I work at and the only reason the owner doesnt just fire me is cause hes known me forever. So that sucks but it is what it is I guess. I just want a stable job doing something I like really.

Really can't stress how much you need to watch the documentary Armadillo (named after their camp) that I mentioned in my last post. If you want to see it, PM me and I will tell you how you can get it.

It is 10 x better than Restrepo, and that was nominated for Best Documentary Oscar. It just shows that war is just a scary, undignified fucking mess, and not some gung-ho heroics where everyone is having a good time.

psgchisolm

25th April 2011, 15:43

you are doing the same thing. the difference is you think it's a-okay to be in the military and defend it while cmoney pretty much regards his decision to join the military as a mistake (I think?).Sounds more like a ruse tbh.

Meanwhile you were p. much pro-military from the day you joined up and followed Lt. Ferret like a puppy.Ferret is legit. He aren't scared of anything. Even palingenesis.

RedSunRising

25th April 2011, 16:48

you are doing the same thing. the difference is you think it's a-okay to be in the military and defend it while cmoney pretty much regards his decision to join the military as a mistake (I think?).

Meanwhile you were p. much pro-military from the day you joined up and followed Lt. Ferret like a puppy.

Also to be human is to be a hypocrite, if werent hypocrites we would be either saints or psychopaths.

Its the principles people are arguing for or against that really count on an internet forum.

RedSunRising

25th April 2011, 16:49

Ferret is legit. He aren't scared of anything.

I hope you are joking.

Rusty Shackleford

25th April 2011, 19:52

I hope you are joking.
he is.

psgchisolm

25th April 2011, 19:59

I hope you are joking.*insert facepalm emoticon*Obviously, I thought the "He aren't scared of anything" would have given it away. Anyway, I have a military fetish. Mainly Red Army circa. 1942-45. *sigh*
Matrosov (http://www.cyberussr.com/rus/eng/eng-alexander.html), Pavlov (http://russiapedia.rt.com/prominent-russians/military/yakov-fedotovich-pavlov/)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Matrosov
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakov_Pavlov
Ect.

Agnapostate

26th April 2011, 01:34

Has it never occurred to you that not necessarily everybody fighting in Afghanistan is a native Afghan? Like in the war against the Soviets, many foreigners have entered the country to fight and some of the old Arab mujahideen have again taken up arms.

On the one hand, if Arabs were few in number, then their presence would be an exception rather than a rule, and it would be misleading to refer to an Arab as an example of the ethnicity of a potential enemy combatant. On the other hand, if Arabs actually constituted the majority of guerrillas opposing U.S. occupation forces, that would discredit the idea that this guerrilla warfare was an indigenous resistance movement. But I don't think you put anything near that level of thought into it; I think you believed the crude stereotypical misconception of "the ragheads are all the same" that is very common among uneducated and ignorant Americans, and apparently not exclusive to us.