What does anti-zionism mean today?

[CesareBorgia]

What does it mean to be a 'anti-zionist' in the 21st century?

Should Israel exist; if so, where should its frontiers be, and who should rule on the other side of these frontiers?

[Renno]

No nations, no borders still does the trick for me. As does no gods,no masters

[Savage]

We can't support any state, only the international proletariat.

[graymouser]

A single, secular, democratic state in the historic borders of Palestine with equal rights for everyone in those borders. This necessarily includes the right of return for all people displaced from outside of Palestine - the hundreds of thousands living in refugee camps for generations. It's the only way you could solve the multiple democratic problems involved in the region. A Jewish state such as Israel is no more appropriate than an Islamic state.

[CesareBorgia]

A single, secular, democratic state in the historic borders of Palestine with equal rights for everyone in those borders. This necessarily includes the right of return for all people displaced from outside of Palestine - the hundreds of thousands living in refugee camps for generations. It's the only way you could solve the multiple democratic problems involved in the region. A Jewish state such as Israel is no more appropriate than an Islamic state.

Thanks for the first serious response.

I have some follow up questions:

Who would rule in this democratic state?

Would repressive measures be taken against those that oppose such a state, I mean among the many Arab and Jewish fanatics?

[Kamos]

Thanks for the first serious response.

What do you mean, "first serious response"? I've no idea whether Renno and Savage were serious or not, specifically, but I do know that the ideas in their posts are the ideas of many leftists, in particular, the more radical ones. You'd be advised not to poke insults at them - capitalists struggle amongst themselves inefficiently all the time, we shouldn't stoop to that level.

[Blake's Baby]

A single, secular, democratic state in the historic borders of Palestine with equal rights for everyone in those borders. This necessarily includes the right of return for all people displaced from outside of Palestine - the hundreds of thousands living in refugee camps for generations. It's the only way you could solve the multiple democratic problems involved in the region. A Jewish state such as Israel is no more appropriate than an Islamic state.

This is rubbish. Communists seek the establishment of a classless communal society without nations, not a perfect secular republic. Fucking hell, France isn't the pinnacle of human societies you know.

'Anti-Zionism' means showing solidarity with the Israeli working class against its own government, and rescung it from the Israeli right. Only the action of the working class in Israel can end the brutality of the Israeli state, just as only the action of the working class in Palestine can bring down the crooks and fanatics currently mismanaging the Palestinian Authority.

[gestalt]

Thanks for the first serious response.

Next time you might want to entitle the thread "Fellow Leninists: What Is to Be Done? re Israel-Palestine." That way you will be unburdened from exposure to conflicting, if in this case oversimplified, opinions which form the basis of discourse and the free exchange of ideas.

Nation-state geopolitics perpetuate the current situation and the suffering of the Israeli and Palestinian working class, so obviously the solution will come from the same. If only class struggle was reducible to anti-colonialism and autonomy to self-determination.

[graymouser]

This is rubbish. Communists seek the establishment of a classless communal society without nations, not a perfect secular republic. Fucking hell, France isn't the pinnacle of human societies you know.
The demand for a democratic, secular Palestine is not a desired "end state" but a recognition of what is needed in the area of historic Palestine in order for the democratic rights of the people living in that area, and the refugees expelled from it during its 1948 conquest, to be recognized. My personal belief is that, as South Africa has demonstrated, the democratic revolution must become a socialist revolution in order for it to actually finish its task of the liberation of the Palestinians - and that of the Israeli working class from "their own" imperialist leaders. But as long as Palestine is occupied by Israeli forces, revolutionary socialists must stand against what amounts to apartheid and support the aspirations of its people for a democratic state.

Saying "we want the establishment of a classless communal society without nations" is like Lenin's mention of the person who wishes mourners at a funeral many happy returns of the day. That's how it comes off to people who base their thought off of the burning need of the Palestinian people for justice, and not on abstract principles.

[The Man]

Anti-Zionism means that you don't support the invading of a country, kicking all of their people out, renaming their towns and cities, and then hating and killing them for the next 50 years.

[progressive_lefty]

These days, I try to more focus on the occupation because if I come out swinging about Zionism or that I am against Zionism, the debate seems to shift from the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank to my knowledge of Zionism and why I am against it.. It's extremely important like Norman Finkelstein says, to focus on the occupation and talk about the day to day crimes against the Palestinians as noted by the many human rights organisations there. I think that's the issue of the recent BDS campaign, people are getting lost into what to boycott. Do we boycott the whole of Israel, including Universities which are the function of the Israeli left or should we just boycott those products that are clearly produced by companies that openly support the occupation or are we going to boycott products from the Settlements. Its frustrating when we get sidetracked by this sort of talk, because it feels obvious to me that some are exploiting the BDS campaign to really dismantle the whole of Israel, where many Palestinians essentially live.

We should concentrate on the fact that since 1968, Israel has basically mounted an occupation that despite many other similar situations in the world, was supported by many first world countries. If the Soviets were in breach of International Law by invading Afghanistan, then why aren't the Israelis?

[Blake's Baby]

... people who base their thought off of the burning need of the Palestinian people for justice, and not on abstract principles.

Abstract principles like 'workers of the world unite... the workers have no country', as against really concrete things like 'justice for the Palestinian people', you mean?

Get a grip. There is no 'justice for Palestine/the Palestinian people', there is either 'socialism or barbarism'. If you're not for socialism - the overthrow of both Palestine and Israel, and the establishment of a new society, then you're for nationalism and capitalism.

Now, I'mm assuming here that we'd all hold out one hand to the Palestinian working class. Why is it that people who think they are revolutiuonaries, when offered a clear choice about what to do with their other hand (to support the Israeli working class, or to support the Palestinian bourgoisie) generally pick the Palestinian bourgoisie?

The Palestinian working class cannot be free from its own bourgeois oppressors unless the Israeli working class also frees itself. How can this happen when even so-called revolutionaries support Palestinian nationalism?

[jake williams]

Zionism began as one among many, many Enlightenment-era nationalist ideologies, albeit one more born out of the struggle of an oppressed minority without an established big bourgeoisie, than, say, France (conspiracy theories aside). Thus it certainly began with significant influences of a sort of social democracy, as well as petty bourgeois utopianism.

In modern practice, it's the ideology of a particular site of vicious imperialist conflict against the Arab world, that exercised by the Israeli state. The ideology itself really isn't the problem, although it can be a part of it, and it's worth critiquing it in the context of a broader critique of nationalism, settler-state imperialist nationalism in particular. There's nothing particularly offensive about Zionism per se, any more than, for example, Boer nationalism.

There is, through whatever vagaries of history, an Israeli people that lives in what was once Palestine. Okay, there are plenty of rich immigrants from New York, but in the main, it's a society of ordinary people with no other home. Any solution has to recognize this.

I'd absolutely love to see international communism, but it's not going to be the solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It's not going to be the solution because the status quo, with an Israeli apartheid state with de facto control of almost all of mandatory Palestine, is about as great for the sublimation of class struggle within Israel as it is for the same outside. You can't get magical international stateless communism out of the situation in Israel-Palestine.

The idea of a sort of federal secular state isn't so entirely a lunatic one, but it would, for the Israeli ruling class, mean the destruction of Israel as such, and it's going to take a long time before that could even be possible, and there's no reason to believe it automatically will if we wait long enough. If anyone comes up with a plausible way to do this that actually gives any sort of democratic power to the working class in Palestine, that'd be great, but I don't see it.

I don't like saying it, but the broad international consensus with two states along the 1967 borders, while unattractive for all sorts of reasons, is probably the least unattractive one. It's the least unattractive one partly because it's possible, but also because it could open up a lot of opportunities for coming up with a much better one.


It's not a good situation at all, and the solutions aren't obvious. It's not inconceivable that in the next few years the balance of forces in Palestine could change such that Palestinians might be able to really demand something better, but it's also not totally likely, much less guaranteed.



Nation-state geopolitics perpetuate the current situation
Yes, Palestinians are very excited about now pretending states don't exist will stop them from perpetuating their own oppression - as, apparently, would fighting for national self-determination.

This particular sort of ultra-leftism, regarding Palestine or anywhere else, is charitably described non-serious. Quite charitably.

[Reznov]

No matter who the people are or reasons, no one has a right to oppress another people.

Anti-Zionism is Anti-Imperalism, just relating to a specific event (Israel and Palestine issue.)

[Magón]

What does it mean to be a 'anti-zionist' in the 21st century?

I'm pretty sure being anti-Zionist still means the same today, as it did when people first started saying it, and even before then.


Should Israel exist; if so, where should its frontiers be, and who should rule on the other side of these frontiers?

No, Israel should not exist. Besides the all around agreement that Israel is an oppressive, imperialist, etc. state, there is something unique that I don't think most Americans living in America, realize about their connection with Israel, and one of my biggest problems.

And that problem is Taxes, etc. I don't think many Americans realize that some of our tax money, etc. goes to the support of Israel through obvious arms deals and other things. Europeans don't have to deal with this, but for any American who calls themselves anti-Zionist, this should be one of the biggest problems you have with the whole state of Israel, and of course the American Government.

Calling Israel imperialist, oppressive, murderers of innocent Palestinians, is an all around anyone anti-Zionist shares, but paying taxes for it, is something very American.

[Cleansing Conspiratorial Revolutionary Flame]

1.) 'What does it mean to be a 'anti-zionist' in the 21st century?'
It means to be opposed to the state of Israel, as a colonial and theocratic state that occupies Palestine and it means to be in solidarity with those in Palestine resisting Zionist Neo-Colonialism.

2. 'Should Israel exist; if so, where should its frontiers be, and who should rule on the other side of these frontiers?'

Part one: Israel has no right towards existence as it is based out of citizenship regarding ethnicity, theocratic control over society and is based out of Neo-Colonialism.
Part two: The only solution is a non-theocratic, Scientific led state that disregards theocratic control and represents the aspirations of all ethnic groups within the area and the Working Class whom are apart of these ethnic groups and united together.

[Rusty Shackleford]

for the time beaing until a classless stateless society is actually feasible, the first solution is to simply create one workers state proportonially representing every nation in Palestine and occupied Palestine. Israel as a state is a parasite on Palestine. The people are whipped up into a colonialist rage funded by US tax dollars and supported by every Arab monarchy. There is nothing wrong with jewist people. there is something wrong with political judaism. same with political islam or Christianity.

What makes being anti-zionist somewhat difficult today on the average westerners conscience and the start is this. A historically oppressed nation has become one of the most oppressive in the world in its own little dominion. White supremacists also like to say they are anti-zionist but they are anti-semetic. which is a difference. WNs are about racial purity and all that shit which ironically is like zionism. even in Israel, an ethiopian or sulfardic jew is a lower tier citizen than the white european jew. WNs just say they are anti-zionists because maybe they were paid off by AIPAC to make anti-zionism synonymous with anti-semitism(joke).


Palestinian people are semetic just like jews. Zionism is almost like National Socialism. Except that it is completely colonial, based in religion, and has no means of surviving on its own without the support of major imperialist powers. In Israel, they like to boast that they are democratic, that they allow homosexuals to date and marry, and that an arab and european jew can marry even if they are men! such progress! forget about apartheid. forget about weekly bombings of gaza. forget about PTSD becoming a norm amongst palestinian youth.

Also, before anyone even thinks of it. No, the jewish immigrants should not be kicked out. People are free to move where they want. Yes many of them moved there knowing 100% well that they were colonizing a populated territory, their descendants had no choise and proprotionally, most of them ARE workers as well. Whether they are zionist or not is a completely different subject.


So, what does anti-zionism mean today? it still means NO MORE FUCKING RACIST COLONIZER STATE.


What about its borders and "frontiers" (as if there were unexplored lands ahead) completely annihilating those borders. they are illegal and unjustified. none of this pre-1967 shit. How about pre 1947!

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[LewisQ]

There's an interesting debate between Moshe Machover and Tony Greenstein (actually a demolition of the latter by the former) on the topic of a single-state solution on Vimeo (can't link, search for Single state Palestine: Principled demand or cul-de-sac?)

Greenstein gets pwned fairly hard for his idealist attitude to anti-imperialism in both Israel/Palestine and more broadly.

(Yeah, it's in a dingy pub somewhere, but that's the CPGB for you.)