"Swedish Defence League(SDL) born in Sweden

[Dimmu]

Well, the article is in Swedish but it says that Alan Lake(founder of the EDL) now helped to create a similar gang in Sweden and they are playing to hold an anti-muslim demonstration in Goetherburg on 21st of May.


I expect a lot of ANTIFA members to be there too, Geotheburg is after all an leftist town.


http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article12866601.ab

[IndependentCitizen]

Smash them before they gain confidence!

[hatzel]

Lake beskriver SD:s Kent Ekeroth som sin nära vän. 2009 var han inbjuden av SD för att undervisa om faror med islam. Ekeroth förnekar dock att han är nära vän med Alan Lake.
– Jag har träffat honom vid två tillfällen. Av det jag har sett och hört av honom så förespråkar han demokrati och inte någon form av våld, säger Kent Ekeroth.

Hmm...I don't think it matters all that much whether Lake is himself violent or not, as Ekeroth must surely know of the reputation of the EDL, which will presumably be replicated by the SDL. I wouldn't be at all surprised if this organisation turns out to be little but the violent 'direct action' wing of Sverigedemokraterna, so they can smash shit up without totally destroying any sense of credibility they still have as a political party...

[Dimentio]

The Islamophobic under-vegetation in Sweden is mostly consisting of angry male bloggers in the age range of 45-75. I expect the SDL to be a fail.

[Dimmu]

The Islamophobic under-vegetation in Sweden is mostly consisting of angry male bloggers in the age range of 45-75. I expect the SDL to be a fail.

True, but we should never underestimate the far-right.

[aty]

The SDL think it is going to be as easy to start these groups as in England. Here Antifa is a big movement and the most violent in Europe, plus that a lot of the football hooligans in Sweden have been in the antifa movement.

They will fail because the football hooligans in Sweden are not political. I can only think that maybe Göteborgs lads and Helsingborg will join. AIK not political and will not be part of SDL, Hammarby have some antifa among the hooligans, Djurgården will not because there top lads are supporters of the IRA, Malmö are too multicultural, GAIS are antifa. So they will fail.

[Dimentio]

The SDL think it is going to be as easy to start these groups as in England. Here Antifa is a big movement and the most violent in Europe, plus that a lot of the football hooligans in Sweden have been in the antifa movement.

They will fail because the football hooligans in Sweden are not political. I can only think that maybe Göteborgs lads and Helsingborg will join. AIK not political and will not be part of SDL, Hammarby have some antifa among the hooligans, Djurgården will not because there top lads are supporters of the IRA, Malmö are too multicultural, GAIS are antifa. So they will fail.

The base will probably be around "Politiskt Inkorrekt"

[El Chuncho]

They will certainly fail as Sweden generally is not kind to fascism. The only form of ''intolerance'' of any note there is unconscious xenophobia (e.g. immigrants will always be ''foreign'' to some Swedes, even if they are not hateful or racist).

[Dimmu]

The base will probably be around "Politiskt Inkorrekt"

Dont forget about Flashback.

[Dimentio]

They will certainly fail as Sweden generally is not kind to fascism. The only form of ''intolerance'' of any note there is unconscious xenophobia (e.g. immigrants will always be ''foreign'' to some Swedes, even if they are not hateful or racist).

"In Britain, they hate you because you are black, in Sweden, they hate you because you are different."

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

They will certainly fail as Sweden generally is not kind to fascism. The only form of ''intolerance'' of any note there is unconscious xenophobia (e.g. immigrants will always be ''foreign'' to some Swedes, even if they are not hateful or racist).

What? I don't know what you base this on? Household racism is no less common in Sweden than it is in England. Certain anti-fascism remains from the social-democratic era, but racism and xenophobia do not always materialise as obvious fascism or nazism, and I'm sure those groups do know to avoid too obvious public references thereto even when they sing Nazi songs in private at their meetings on ferries.


Dont forget about Flashback.

That cesspit should have been closed long ago.

[Dimentio]

What? I don't know what you base this on? Household racism is no less common in Sweden than it is in England. Certain anti-fascism remains from the social-democratic era, but racism and xenophobia do not always materialise as obvious fascism or nazism, and I'm sure those groups do know to avoid too obvious public references thereto even when they sing Nazi songs in private at their meetings on ferries.

I agree, there is more of a tolerance to that than the opinion polls are revealing. I would guess that the hatred of the SD is rather based around the fact that they are challenging the establishment. All new parties are hated in Sweden, because Swedes generally are a very diligent and collectivistic people, in the sense that they follow authorities.

The Green Party was also hated in the 90's. The Pirate Party is also very much disliked amongst those who are below 30 years.

[aty]

The base will probably be around "Politiskt Inkorrekt"
Then they will certainly fail. The appeal that the EDL have is that they are "an army" against muslims, that attracts young men. The keyboard warriors on "Politiskt Inkorrekt" will not attract anyone and I dont think they even dare to show up.

[Ravachol]

Then they will certainly fail. The appeal that the EDL have is that they are "an army" against muslims, that attracts young men. The keyboard warriors on "Politiskt Inkorrekt" will not attract anyone and I dont think they even dare to show up.

From what I've seen so far the whole 'Defence League' fad has been a typical British, correction, English phenomenon. Even it's Welsh Defence League and Ulster Defence League chapters have been small and insignificant, the only exception maybe being the Scottish Defence League. While 'defence leagues' have been popping up all over Europe, most are limited to no more than 10-20 casuals who either have pre-existing connections to the far-right or hang out on 'politically incorrect' websites.

The French Defence League doesn't exist outside of a picture of 3 guys and Stephen Yaxley-Lennon on the internet. The Belgium Defence League is basically 5 lads who'll never get any foothold because they're Pro-Belgium and the Flemish-seperatist movement (which is historically the cojoined twin of the Belgian far-right) is far too rigid and big.

The German Defence League is, well, this:

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/208148_1617621134403_1652618869_1286515_8178933_n. jpg

and given that the militant far-right in Germany is explicitly National-Socialist, which doesn't go well with the whole pro-Israel, pro-USA values of the 'Defence Leagues', I know I'd love to watch them explain their positions to these guys in any 'anti-islamisation' march:

http://antikriegstag.org/files/2010/01/19.jpg

Not to mention the size and militancy of the German antifa movement.

The same goes for Sweden I guess. I don't think groups like the SMR will take kindly towards this kind of thing.

As for the 'Dutch Defence League', well:

http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/3089/ddlcollagethehague11122.png

That's all of them so that says about all I guess..

[Olentzero]

Thanks for the tip, Dimmu. I'll be bringing this up to folks at Rättvisepartiet Socialisterna headquarters in Stockholm so our Göteborg comrades can start preparing for this. There's nothing like outnumbering the fascists 5 or 10 to 1!

[Dimentio]

Then they will certainly fail. The appeal that the EDL have is that they are "an army" against muslims, that attracts young men. The keyboard warriors on "Politiskt Inkorrekt" will not attract anyone and I dont think they even dare to show up.

Yep. The guy behind Politiskt Inkorrekt is not even stating his own name and refused to admit when he was called out on it, which tells a lot about the depth of his convictions.

In general, the young males who are voting SD are not racist activists. They are just angry at something and think that the immigrants are "stealing their jobs"/"welfare". The "islamisation fear crowd" is almost exclusively consisting of males above 30. Their hunting ground is not the streets, but the comment sections on news magazines, Newsmill, Flashback, Politiskt Inkorrekt, etc.

[aty]

Here is the SDL, of course antifascists infiltrated their first meeting in Stockholm :)
http://research.nu/2011/03/22/swedish-defence-league-huliganer-mot-islam/
http://research.nu/wp-content/gallery/artikel-sdl/mote2.jpg

[Tim Finnegan]

From what I've seen so far the whole 'Defence League' fad has been a typical British, correction, English phenomenon. Even it's Welsh Defence League and Ulster Defence League chapters have been small and insignificant, the only exception maybe being the Scottish Defence League.
A lot of the problem they have in Scotland (and, similarly, in Ulster) is that there are plenty of existing far-right populist organisations- these are the lands of loyalism, after all- and they don't fancy rolling around in the mud with the motley crew of malcontents and weirdos that comprise the EDL. Even the SDL, which managed to attain a slight, extremely temporary prominence, was comprised mostly of the more pathetic sort of loyalist Rangers fans without the connections to get into one of the better-established groups, and their pitiful demonstrations were usually staffed by as many EDLers bussed up for the day as actual Scots.

[El Chuncho]

What? I don't know what you base this on? Household racism is no less common in Sweden than it is in England. Certain anti-fascism remains from the social-democratic era, but racism and xenophobia do not always materialise as obvious fascism or nazism, and I'm sure those groups do know to avoid too obvious public references thereto even when they sing Nazi songs in private at their meetings on ferries.

I am not disagreeing with that! :thumbup1:

[El Chuncho]

"In Britain, they hate you because you are black, in Sweden, they hate you because you are different."

Actually being black in the UK is not as much of a problem as people would think. Britain is more xenophobia, classist and anti-Islamic than it is anti-black. ;) Infact, black people are seen as fully integrated by most of the population, and would not suffer discrimination unless their are other factors at work (e.g. they are actually foreign). The UK is quite nationalistic, and currently very xenophobic, hence you cannot watch five minutes of adverts without the words ''Britain'', ''Briton(s)'' or ''British'' cropping up, usually in regards to food.

[GallowsBird]

The UK is quite nationalistic, and currently very xenophobic, hence you cannot watch five minutes of adverts without the words ''Britain'', ''Briton(s)'' or ''British'' cropping up, usually in regards to food.

Which pisses me off to no end, as you know. Selling "Nationalism" in such a way is a very dangerous thing to do. Has the world learned nothing from history?

[Olentzero]

Ask Johnny Rotten next time you see him hawking butter!

[Crux]

They were a no-show a couple of days ago, when they apparently had som Quran burning plans. The comrades mobilised 50 people in half an hour, apparently that was enough for the SDL to decide not to show up. Also they are banned by the other far right groups from the demo on 21 may. So quite stillborn.

[Sam_b]

A lot of the problem they have in Scotland (and, similarly, in Ulster) is that there are plenty of existing far-right populist organisations- these are the lands of loyalism, after all- and they don't fancy rolling around in the mud with the motley crew of malcontents and weirdos that comprise the EDL. Even the SDL, which managed to attain a slight, extremely temporary prominence, was comprised mostly of the more pathetic sort of loyalist Rangers fans without the connections to get into one of the better-established groups, and their pitiful demonstrations were usually staffed by as many EDLers bussed up for the day as actual Scots.

Sorry, I don't think this is correct at all. Firstly, what are these 'existing far-right populist organisations' that have somehow taken up the post-BUF space from, say the 1930s onwards? No, there isn't any. However, if you're referring to the Order, which I assume that you are, then you are negating almost everything in terms of history, formation and politics of the organisations in question.

I don't think we can really categorise what is and isn't 'far-right' by what we personally see as objectionable or not. The organisation of the lodge is not one which is dominated by boot-boys who wish to instill power by street violence. Whilst I have no sympathy whatsoever with the lodge its formation and politique are not conducted on fascist lines. Neither is it an organisation keen to take on power or the state.

The reason why the EDL/SDL/BNP or whatever have never been able to entrench themselves is historical. Not witholding the large trade union and labour movement members in Scotland historically, lets remember the failed attempts of the BUF to get any foothold in the country. Unlike down south, every town and city effectively kicked them out - my favourite story being in Aberdeen when the organisation was chased down the street by kids on bicycles and essentially hauled out of town. In addition, throughout the years there has never really been any significant political minority space in existence where the far-right has ever been able to set a foothold. The only region, and by far a slight example due to repeated failures there as well; was the base of the NF in Aberdeen for quite some time, and it is not surprising in my opinion the BNP have been concentrating its effort there - yet coming far short every time. Indeed, the NF having the first foothold, and a minority one at that, split a far-right vote in the early days of the BNP to the point that both were exceptionally marginalised.

[Tim Finnegan]

Sorry, I don't think this is correct at all. Firstly, what are these 'existing far-right populist organisations' that have somehow taken up the post-BUF space from, say the 1930s onwards? No, there isn't any. However, if you're referring to the Order, which I assume that you are, then you are negating almost everything in terms of history, formation and politics of the organisations in question.

I don't think we can really categorise what is and isn't 'far-right' by what we personally see as objectionable or not. The organisation of the lodge is not one which is dominated by boot-boys who wish to instill power by street violence. Whilst I have no sympathy whatsoever with the lodge its formation and politique are not conducted on fascist lines. Neither is it an organisation keen to take on power or the state.

The reason why the EDL/SDL/BNP or whatever have never been able to entrench themselves is historical. Not witholding the large trade union and labour movement members in Scotland historically, lets remember the failed attempts of the BUF to get any foothold in the country. Unlike down south, every town and city effectively kicked them out - my favourite story being in Aberdeen when the organisation was chased down the street by kids on bicycles and essentially hauled out of town. In addition, throughout the years there has never really been any significant political minority space in existence where the far-right has ever been able to set a foothold. The only region, and by far a slight example due to repeated failures there as well; was the base of the NF in Aberdeen for quite some time, and it is not surprising in my opinion the BNP have been concentrating its effort there - yet coming far short every time. Indeed, the NF having the first foothold, and a minority one at that, split a far-right vote in the early days of the BNP to the point that both were exceptionally marginalised.
What you're saying is largely true, but I think that it's important for Scots to acknowledge the fact that there is a far-right xenophobic element in our society and our history, and not get trapped in the mythology of an eternal Red Clydeside which would paint us as staunch syndicalist to a man. The fact is that there is and always has been a hardcore set of rightists in this country who would, under other circumstances, act as the footsoldiers of a right-wing populist movement, but which have been historically defined by a provincial Loyalist ideology which limits their ideological exchanges with broader European movements. Whether organised in small scale local Loyalist groups and gangs, or through association, as you say, with the more conservative Orange Order, there has always been a far-right presence, but expressed through the particular anti-Catholic narratives of the Scottish far-right.
To take your example of the BUF, it's not that there was no room for a group like the BUF to operate, but that there was no room left, as it had all been occupied by existing hardline Loyalist groups like the Scottish Protestant League, with Loyalist gangs like the notorious Billy Boys serving as their brownshirts. (In fact, the very reason that Aberdeen has proved fertile ground for the NF and BNP is the absence of a major historical Loyalist presence there, as there is further South.) Fascism was often regarded as a continental, Catholic ideology- it was most prominent in Catholic regions like Italy, Hungary and Souther Germany, after all- and s; it even came to the point where the Edinburgh based militant group Protestant Action was involved in militant anti-fascist activity, including the violent opposition of a visit by Mosley in 1934.
All this means that the Scottish far-right has historically been tied to the Loyalist establishment, including the Church of Scotland (segments of which were still cheerfully producing racist anti-Irish tracts in the interwar period) and the Orange Order, and so were brought to heel in a way which the fascists in most of Europe were not.

[Sam_b]

but I think that it's important for Scots to acknowledge the fact that there is a far-right xenophobic element in our society and our history, and not get trapped in the mythology of an eternal Red Clydeside which would paint us as staunch syndicalist to a man.

I'm not doing this.


The fact is that there is and always has been a hardcore set of rightists in this country who would, under other circumstances, act as the footsoldiers of a right-wing populist movement, but which have been historically defined by a provincial Loyalist ideology which limits their ideological exchanges with broader European movements.

You're now acting on alternative history and presumptions. 'Would' is not 'have', and this would actually serve to disprove your main hypothesis. If there is this vast element that would provide boot-boy service (which isn't actually that much of a tenant of right-wing populism, it has always been a fascist tactic; explaining why this phenomenon has not for instance ever gripped UKIP) why have they not all lept to the service of the EDL/SDL?


To take your example of the BUF, it's not that there was no room for a group like the BUF to operate, but that there was no room left, as it had all been occupied by existing hardline Loyalist groups like the Scottish Protestant League, with Loyalist gangs like the notorious Billy Boys serving as their brownshirts

Why are you making such a comparison? To be honest, you are dangerously mixing up fascism with what you suppose to be fascism. The SPL and most loyalist gangs have all but disappeared off the scene, thus the assertion that there are plenty of organisations which have in affect taken the space the SDL wishes to capture cannot be right.


(In fact, the very reason that Aberdeen has proved fertile ground for the NF and BNP is the absence of a major historical Loyalist presence there, as there is further South.)

Aberdeen, as i've said, was never 'fertile ground' at all. There was a presence there, but a tiny one at that. This again makes the entire realm of Scottish politics appear to be down to some sort of sectarian divide: a divide that largely does not exist outside of the Central Belt; and thus a generalisation about the entire country.


All this means that the Scottish far-right has historically been tied to the Loyalist establishment, including the Church of Scotland (segments of which were still cheerfully producing racist anti-Irish tracts in the interwar period) and the Orange Order, and so were brought to heel in a way which the fascists in most of Europe were not.

This is again confusing notions of the 'far-right' with 'fascism', and not actually making any clear point. The CoS is not fascist.

[Tim Finnegan]

Ok, my point was simply that the culture of the Scottish far-right has always been loyalist in nature, so the sort of people who would in England gravitate towards white nationalism have instead ended up in the orbit of the loyalist establishment, which A) superficially downplays the actual size of the far-right in the country, and B) limits the opportunities of English-based far-right groups because they don't always speak the language of loyalism very well. I was rather jumbled and clumsy in making it in my previous post, but, well, there you go. I've said my piece.

[Smyg]

A bit of an amusing update: SDL was not allowed to attend the anti-mosque demonstration yesterday, due to "zionism". Strangely enough, EDL was allowed to attend - just a few of them, that is. Maybe 2-3.