The Morals without god argument.

[Rafiq]

What's your response when people say:

"Why even be a communist, there's no afterlife"!

"Why care about anything, or anyone!"

"Why have morals!"

[Kronsteen]

There's always a few people who can't grasp the difference between "different values" and "no values". They're the ones with "flexible values".

Just ask them whether christians/muslims/etc. are all extremely moral people. And whether buddhists/bahais/etc are all extremely immoral. If they tell you their group is wonderful and everyone else's is evil, then walk away - their mind is too damaged to be reached.

[The Vegan Marxist]

The absence of an afterlife isn't a good argument to why we shouldn't hold any moral values. In their argument, they're essentially being nice to people, treating them right, because they want to go to heaven. They want to be rewarded, thus their promotion of moral values. In their mind, moral value is nothing more than kudos points by their "heavenly father". Nothing more, nothing less. It shows true love and morality to treat people right, even when you're pretty sure you won't be rewarded for it in the end.

"The foundation of morality should not be made dependent on myth nor tied to any authority lest doubt about the myth or about the legitimacy of the authority imperil the foundation of sound judgment and action." -Albert Einstein

[Delirium]

How is morality without religion any more that calculated self interest then?

[black magick hustla]

this is not a scientific question, its a philosophical one (as the existence of god is). fuck man if the shit we are used to is not the wisdom of a perfect all knowledgeable being or w/e then the only thing we have is our goddamn humanity. idk if thats a very sturdy moral basis but in order to not find myself miserable i try to be as human as possible

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Morals are for the religious.

[black magick hustla]

Morals are for the religious.
i dont think this is true, unless you read a ton of dauve and like frenchisms

[The Vegan Marxist]

Morals are for the religious.

Looks like someone needs to get a copy of "The Moral Landscape" by Sam Harris. :thumbup:

[piet11111]

How is morality without religion any more that calculated self interest then?

How is morality with religion anymore then calculated self interest to gain access to heaven ?

I know of religious people that are a lot less moral then atheist since a few hail mary's will get them forgiveness they believe so they just sin and ask for forgiveness then sin some more.

[El Chuncho]

To be fair most Christians believe that they do not have to do good things as long as they have faith in Jesus and ask for forgiven. Being good doesn't get you a free pass into heaven, simply believing does.

[#FF0000]

You don't need god to be good, obviously. Just because I don't answer to God doesn't mean I don't answer to anyone. I live in society with people and so I answer to other people - family, friends, acquaintances, etc. etc. etc.

tbh, a God that will always love me and forgive me no matter what I do is a great way to justify doing things that are bad.

[Thirsty Crow]

What's your response when people say:

"Why even be a communist, there's no afterlife"!Because it is my decision and desire to act in associations with other people sharing the same interest in creating a different world (in which I would find more opportunities for the fulfillment of my desires and personal goals). I don't need to believe in an eternity of conscious existence to recognize the fetters to my own development (as well as the development of the human world in general - since I am a social being)


"Why care about anything, or anyone!"Because generalized "care" or solidarity enables the creation of conditions conducive to the optimal development of human powers for every associated individual.


"Why have morals!"
Without a certain set of principles guiding oour actions, we wouldn't be able to attain the conditions necessary for the situation very briefly described above (the second answer; the first one is also relevant).

[JTB]

What's your response when people say:

"Why even be a communist, there's no afterlife"!

"Why care about anything, or anyone!"

"Why have morals!"
:laugh:

[JTB]

How is morality without religion to get into heaven any more that calculated self interest then?
Fixed that for ya

[JTB]

Morals are for the religious.
Morals are nothing more than instinct (http://www.google.com/search?q=the+moral+instinct)refined by ethics and philosophy

[Viet Minh]

What's your response when people say:

"Why even be a communist, there's no afterlife"!

"Why care about anything, or anyone!"

"Why have morals!"

Thats exactly why we need to have morals, there is no God to help us. The religious see starving kids in africa, shrug their shoulders and say 'the lord works in mysterious ways'. Of course this does not apply to all religious people, possibly the greatest amount of help comes from religious aid organisations. But as a species we do need to accept responsibilty for ourselves. One of the ways we can do that is by breaking down class hierarchy.


Morals are for the religious.

If you lived just 2 hundred years ago I wager you would not say that. Heck even today in uber-religious societies the morals there are dubious at best.

[ComradeMan]

Thats exactly why we need to have morals, there is no God to help us. The religious see starving kids in africa, shrug their shoulders and say 'the lord works in mysterious ways'. Of course this does not apply to all religious people, possibly the greatest amount of help comes from religious aid organisations. .

So you've basically contradicted your first premise. The religious don't all just shrug their shoulders ans say the "the lord works in mysterious ways" at all- that is a complete falsehood that you then go on to explain. :confused:


But as a species we do need to accept responsibilty for ourselves. One of the ways we can do that is by breaking down class hierarchy. .

Aesop- Herakles "the gods help those who help themselves"- this was later used by Benjamin Franklin.



If you lived just 2 hundred years ago I wager you would not say that. Heck even today in uber-religious societies the morals there are dubious at best.

Your confusing religious with "holy".

[Viet Minh]

So you've basically contradicted your first premise. The religious don't all just shrug their shoulders ans say the "the lord works in mysterious ways" at all- that is a complete falsehood that you then go on to explain. :confused:

Okay I'm sorry I phrased that very badly, I can see that would be offensive to theists, I apologise. What I'm talking about are a number of people including my former self who might view it that way, where I used the idea of an active God as an excuse for my own reluctance to actually help others. This is an idea I find encouraged to some extent in some aspects of protestant christianity, I'm not sure about other religions. One example is the Westboro Baptist Church who stated that the Tsunami in Japan was evidence of Gods wrath, there was another similar statement that was a troll, but its the way some pseudo-religious cults actually think. There is a distinction here between active religious believers (who volunteer in churches giving meals to the homeless, or aid work in the third world) and the passive believers who think going to church every sunday will gain them rightful entry into the kingdom of heaven.



Aesop- Herakles "the gods help those who help themselves"- this was later used by Benjamin Franklin.


The Old Testament is full of such examples, and God was in some cases vengeful and unforgiving. It doesn't take away from the fact that some people use religion to marginalise others, or even to attack them in a very few cases.



Your confusing religious with "holy".


I don't get where you're coming from.. As an example the Bible says that children who disobey their parents should be put to death, that is not necessarily compatible with modern religious views.

[Sadena Meti]

Most religious people are not religious. They are not getting their values out of literal interpretations of the Bible. They are already living with morals without God. I mean, if suddenly it were proven that God did not exist, do you think people would go out raping and murdering? People already have morals without God, they just need to be enlightened to the fact that they do.

[Sadena Meti]

Most religious people are not religious. They are not getting their values out of literal interpretations of the Bible. They are already living with morals without God. I mean, if suddenly it were proven that God did not exist, do you think people would go out raping and murdering? People already have morals without God, they just need to be enlightened to the fact that they do.

I must admit that I am cribbing from Richard Dawkins' God Delusion, Chapter 6, section 3 "If there is no God, why be good?"

You can read it here:
http://www.sadena.com/Books-Texts/Richard%20Dawkins%20-%20The%20God%20Delusion.pdf

[hatzel]

Most religious people are not religious. They are not getting their values out of literal interpretations of the Bible. They are already living with morals without God. I mean, if suddenly it were proven that God did not exist, do you think people would go out raping and murdering? People already have morals without God, they just need to be enlightened to the fact that they do.I'm sure you're familiar with the writings of Meister Eckhart (actually I'm not, but I'll pretend), which would argue that man's good morality is inherent to his nature, as instilled in him by G-d without anything about getting these values from the Bible or any other source:
Grace is from G-d, and works in the depth of the soul whose powers it employs. It is a light which issues forth to do service under the guidance of the Spirit. [...] The peace, freedom and blessedness of all souls consist in their abiding in G-d's will. Towards this union with G-d for which it is created the soul strives perpetually. [...] To produce real moral freedom, G-d's grace and man's will must co-operate. As G-d is the Prime Mover of nature, so also He creates free impulses towards Himself and to all good things. [...] No law is given to the righteous, because he fulfils the law inwardly, and bears it in himself, for the least thing done by G-d is better than all the work of creatures. [...] All the soul's works which are to inherit an everlasting recompense must be carried on in G-d. They are rewarded by Him in proportion as they are carried on in Him, for the soul is an instrument of G-d whereby He carries on His work.Such suggestions show that the claim 'we wouldn't go out murdering even without some religion telling us not to' can also be used from the side of religion to prove the universality of such an ethical code, which is already present in the righteous soul without the need for its external imposition, as it is natural for the soul, an emanation of G-d, to desire to follow His divine will, it also being the will of the soul, as the will of man and the will of G-d are one and the same...

[Meridian]

What's your response when people say:

"Why even be a communist, there's no afterlife"!

"Why care about anything, or anyone!"

"Why have morals!"

Kick them and take their money?

[Viet Minh]

I'm sure you're familiar with the writings of Meister Eckhart (actually I'm not, but I'll pretend), which would argue that man's good morality is inherent to his nature, as instilled in him by G-d without anything about getting these values from the Bible or any other source:Such suggestions show that the claim 'we wouldn't go out murdering even without some religion telling us not to' can also be used from the side of religion to prove the universality of such an ethical code, which is already present in the righteous soul without the need for its external imposition, as it is natural for the soul, an emanation of G-d, to desire to follow His divine will, it also being the will of the soul, as the will of man and the will of G-d are one and the same...

The same thing which makes humans capable of compassion and morality gives us the 'free will' to be truly evil as well. This is where I find it hard to understand such concepts of morality, for instance someone who is beaten and abused as a child is more likely to grow up to behave in the same way towards others. There's no doubt they are doing wrong, and know they are doing wrong more so than those who have not experienced such treatment, but in some ways are they not destined to become the person anyone else would be given their exact same nature and nurture? When it comes down to it we are machines who can only work in the laws of physics and quantum mechanics etc. The immediate decisions you make are subconsciously chosen based on previous experience, although we may feel like we are reacting emotionally the emotion is secondary and used to motivate us into action or response.

[Sadena Meti]

Let me do some judicious editing.




Grace is from evolved animal nature, and works in the depth of the soul whose powers it employs. It is a light which issues forth to do service under the guidance of the Mind. [...] The peace, freedom and blessedness of all souls consist in their abiding in mutual reciprocity. Towards this union with evolved animal nature for which it is created the soul strives perpetually. [...] To produce real moral freedom, evolved animal nature and man's will must co-operate. As physics is the Prime Mover of nature, so also evolved animal nature creates free impulses towards Itself and to all good things. [...] No law is given to the righteous, because he fulfills the law inwardly, and bears it in himself, for the least thing done by nature is better than all the work of creatures. [...] All the soul's works which are to inherit an everlasting recompense must be carried on in evolved animal nature.

[ComradeMan]

^^^^^^^ But that's just ill-thought out rubbish.

[Sadena Meti]

^^^^^^^ But that's just ill-thought out rubbish.

No I cribbed a lot of it from Shadows of Our Forgotten Ancestors by Carl Sagan, a book I highly recommend to those who want to understand everything from the creation of the planet to the development and evolution of life to primate development and behavior. Shame he died young.

Mutual Aid is an Evolved Trait. A species that develops this trait is more likely to survive and reproduce. Studies have been done with chimp behavior, especially by Jane Goodall.

And it also was exactly what this thread was about. Morals without God. I took God out of the equation and substituted rational things.

[ComradeMan]

No I cribbed a lot of it from Shadows of Our Forgotten Ancestors by Carl Sagan, a book I highly recommend to those who want to understand everything from the creation of the planet to the development and evolution of life to primate development and behavior. Shame he died young.

Mutual Aid is an Evolved Trait. A species that develops this trait is more likely to survive and reproduce. Studies have been done with chimp behavior, especially by Jane Goodall.

And it also was exactly what this thread was about. Morals without God. I took God out of the equation and substituted rational things.


Chimpanzees also hunt and kill members of other troops and kill and eat them and male gorillas are known to kill baby gorillas when they become alpha dominant in the group- i.e. not their own offspring.

I am not saying that mutual aid is not an evolved trait but there is a lot more there. For example, how can you explain the concept of "turning the other cheek" in terms of evolutionary biology? It transcends the basic survival instinct and defense mechanisms of any species.

The trouble with this argument about ethics and moral codes is that in terms of human evolution- some kind of religious/spiritual belief is part of that and omnipresent in every culture. Even if you take a cultural anthropologist outlook and see this as no more than a cultural development the stumbling block is that in today's world all of our codes of ethics and concepts of what is right and wrong ultimately derive from religious/spiritual and philosophical-spiritual ideas.

[Revolution starts with U]

i think you have that backwards. Our religions derive from our ethics. But to each his own.
(Time for the straw man) what easier way is their to convince someone why they should follow ethics than to say "there's a wizard that lives in a cloud watching you, and will punish you." ( Especially if your people have an extensive history with extraterrestrial contact ;):D )
humans hunt and kill members of their own groups, and practice infantacide.

[ComradeMan]

i think you have that backwards. Our religions derive from our ethics. But to each his own.
(Time for the straw man) what easier way is their to convince someone why they should follow ethics than to say "there's a wizard that lives in a cloud watching you, and will punish you." ( Especially if your people have an extensive history with extraterrestrial contact ;):D )
humans hunt and kill members of their own groups, and practice infantacide.

Jains, for example, don't believe in that and have one of those most non-violent codes of ethics in the world and they are basically an atheistic religion. Buddhism is also non-theistic in many senses and within Hinduism there is the Avaita Vedanta too.

By the way- being good only because you don't want to be punished is not exactly the idea expressed in Judaism or Christianity. The Book of Job is a good example of this reasoning.

I also challenge you to provide one example of a moral code or code of ethics that does not have its roots or at least its cultural roots in schools of thought that fundamentally derive from spiritual/religious or non-scientific/materialist sources. Even the Roman Law ultimately derives from the mos maiorum or "way of the ancestors".

[Revolution starts with U]

No, you're right. Religion is basically a cultural universal. And...
Are you saying our morals derive from God?

[Sadena Meti]

Chimpanzees also hunt and kill members of other troops and kill and eat them and male gorillas are known to kill baby gorillas when they become alpha dominant in the group- i.e. not their own offspring.

Yeah I was hoping you hadn't read that part of the book. But it does have sound genetic benefits, as horrific as it is.


I am not saying that mutual aid is not an evolved trait but there is a lot more there. For example, how can you explain the concept of "turning the other cheek" in terms of evolutionary biology? It transcends the basic survival instinct and defense mechanisms of any species.

You tend to live with kin (talking in our primate and human tribal days). A kin offends you. If you kill that kin, you kill someone with similar genetics. Your collective genetics therefore have a lesser chance of continuing. Hence the prevalence of ritualistic fighting amongst primates and humans. Consider "jawing" (see plenty of threat displays in prison that go nowhere).

[ComradeMan]

No, you're right. Religion is basically a cultural universal. And...
Are you saying our morals derive from God?

No, I can't say that emprically. What I am saying is that it is hard to divorce morality and ethics- even in a secular society- from their spiritual/religious origins. I just don't think a "scientific" code of ethics could be scientific in the objective and materialist sense.

[Revolution starts with U]

I don't think there could be a "scientific" code of ethics, as utilitarianism isn't the realm of ethics. By that I mean, an ethical system that says the ends justify the means, is not really an ethical system at all.
Ethics, in my view, can only be gotten at inter-subjectively.

[Sadena Meti]

I disagree. The Golden Rule can be deduced (or is it induced, it's been a while since logic 101, or was it 210) from logic. I am an entity. An action against my entity causes pain. X is an entity like me. An action against X causes pain. As I would avoid pain, so would X.
Then switch pain with pleasure and you've got the Golden Rule. That's why it exists in some form in almost any religion.

[ComradeMan]

I disagree. The Golden Rule can be deduced (or is it induced, it's been a while since logic 101, or was it 210) from logic. I am an entity. An action against my entity causes pain. X is an entity like me. An action against X causes pain. As I would avoid pain, so would X.
Then switch pain with pleasure and you've got the Golden Rule. That's why it exists in some form in almost any religion.

False analogies... WTF has the perfect rectangle got to do with pain and suffering? What about masochists- they enjoy pain.

[Sadena Meti]

False analogies... WTF has the perfect rectangle got to do with pain and suffering? What about masochists- they enjoy pain.
There are no absolutes in the real world (exceptions and aberrations will always exist) but there are sound and complete logical guidelines.

BTW That's complete as in logically complete, a quality of a logical proposal, not complete as in they cover everything.

[Revolution starts with U]

Deducing from logic is not scientific. Deducing logically from evidence is. And I just don't think there will be anything fundamental we could deduce from evidence.

[Delirium]

So what is the basis of morality if it is not derived from religion?

[Sir Comradical]

What's your response when people say:

"Why even be a communist, there's no afterlife"!

"The charges against communism made from a religious standpoint, are not deserving of serious examination"
- Karl Marx, Communist Manifesto

[Revolution starts with U]

So what is the basis of morality if it is not derived from religion?

Human interaction.