Sam Marcy and the PSL

[False Consciousness]

Hello everyone!

So it seems to me that, at least from what I've seen on this site and others, that the Party for Socialism and Liberation is probably the fastest growing, most active leftist organization in the U.S. at this time.

Due to this, I've briefly looked into its stances and such, as well as Sam Marcy, from whom it seems to draw many of its positions. Though I wonder how much this still holds true now, after their split form WWP. Although I've read a few of his short articles and such on the WWP's website, I still feel like I don't fully grasp his brand of Marxism. Could anyone elaborate, or possible suggest some key readings to me?

I'm mostly interested in the PSL and its theoretical foundations because there is a great chance I will be living in D.C. for a while, which form what I've read houses one of their national chapters. Although I have some key reservations with some of their stances, I'm still be very interested in learning about the party and perhaps working with or getting in contact with them.

Thank you in advance!

[False Consciousness]

Wow...that was really incoherent. My apologies. >_< Basically I'm just looking for info on the PSL and Sam Marcy's theories, or at least some links, book suggestions, etc. towards finding such information.

[Jose Gracchus]

You're probably better off joining their group and posting there or PMing one of their members. This is probably going to end up being a sectarian shitfest of shittalk.

[The Red Next Door]

http://www.workers.org/marcy/

[The Douche]

Check out "high tech low pay", thats what I was reccomended when I asked what Marcy stuff I should read.

[chegitz guevara]

You can find the recommended book at the link listed above.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Marcy split from the SWP when they refused his demand to support the USSR's intervention into Hungary in 1956 to smash the workers' revolution that was breaking out there. Earlier, he had also supported the bourgeois politician Henry Wallace's run for president.

His main "contribution" was his bogus "global class war" theory, which is in essence "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" applied to global politics, with the United States being "the enemy." Marcyites therefore support nearly any and everyone that comes in conflict with the U.S., from blood drenched nationalists to former employees of U.S. imperialism.

[black magick hustla]

sam marcy is one of those "thinkers" that are important to the sect he formed part of he is bogus. its the type of "thinkers" like bob avakian who only rcpites read dont bother btw he was essentially the right wing of trotskyism in the us

[HEAD ICE]

The Marxist internet archive has published Marcy's documents pertaining to Global Class War theory. These used to be difficult to get ahold of but here they are in all their glory:
http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/marcy/gclasswar.pdf

[black magick hustla]

The Marxist internet archive has published Marcy's documents pertaining to Global Class War theory. These used to be difficult to get ahold of but here they are in all their glory:
http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/marcy/gclasswar.pdf
tl:dr

[Chimurenga.]

Hello, I'm a member of the Party For Socialism and Liberation. As far as I know, we are the fastest growing Communist organization in the country at the moment. Our Revleft group can be found here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?groupid=84).

It seems The Inform Candidate had it right as you can see from Nothing Human Is Alien and maldodors comments.. Heh.

I view Sam Marcy of taking the strengths from Trotsky's writings, moving past the weaknesses and still staying true to the ideas of Marx, Engels, and Lenin. After realizing what a failure the Trotskyist current has been, I'd say Marcy was absolutely correct in that.

Aside from that, I find Sam Marcy's best work to be High Tech, Low Pay (http://www.workers.org/marcy/cd/samtech/index.htm) in which Sam Marcy analyzes the latest developments in capitalist production in the late 70's to mid 80's or what is called the "Scientific and technological revolution". It's an economic work that, in my opinion, is a classic. I recently read it along with Marx's Wage Labor and Capital and both seemed to go well together.

Sam Marcy was not a '"theorist" though. He did not sit down and elaborate on his 'theory' of global class war in his work post-SWP. In fact, that term itself never really made it out of the internal documents of the Socialist Workers Party in the early 1950's. Although, it is amusing how it's almost like a legend amongst non-PSL or WWP members.

I would also recommend his works regarding the various workers states like China: The Struggle Within (http://www.workers.org/marcy/cd/samwith/index.htm), China 1977: End of the Revolutionary Mao Era (http://www.workers.org/marcy/cd/samsupp/index.htm), The Class Character of the USSR (http://www.workers.org/marcy/cd/samclass/index.htm), and Imperialism and the Crisis In the Socialist Camp (http://www.workers.org/marcy/cd/samimpcr/index.htm).

He also wrote one of the best books on the reforms that took place in the Soviet Union called Perestroika: A Marxist Critique (http://www.workers.org/marcy/cd/sampere/index.htm).

I hope I've been helpful. Feel free to message me if you have any other questions.

[Chimurenga.]

http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.politics.marxism.marxmail/147436

This is also a pretty good write up from a member of WWP.

[black magick hustla]

Sam Marcy was not a '"theorist" though. He did not sit down and elaborate on his 'theory' of global class war in his work post-SWP. In fact, that term itself never really made it out of the internal documents of the Socialist Workers Party in the early 1950's. Although, it is amusing how it's almost like a legend amongst non-PSL or WWP members.



it doesnt matter, y'all about supporting third world tin pot murderers of the toiling classes. the theory on "global class war" IS what defines the psl and the wwp on geopolitics.

[graymouser]

If you're going to spend time reading Sam Marcy, you should really read his book High Tech, Low Pay. While I don't agree with Marcy's politics it's an good look at why high technology has not meant generalized prosperity. Most of the other stuff is of historical interest.

One other work that I'd suggest checking out from the Marcy tradition is a book by Vince Copeland called Market Elections. It's a collection of columns that Copeland wrote for Workers World newspaper that looked at how each presidential election from 1876 to 1976 was shaped by the needs of different capitalist sectors.

As far as Marcy's actual theories on global class war, well, I look at it as a variant of the political line of Michel Pablo, a leader of the Fourth International in the 1950s, that initially combined with a strong like for Mao and then for Castro to drift further from anything identifiable as Trotskyism.

[HEAD ICE]

another important document is this write up by Sam Marcy on the great fighter for the workers and the oppressed comrade jesse jackson:
http://www.workers.org/2008/us/ww_1984_1002/

[Kassad]

Proletarianrevolution beat me to the punch on this one. I definitely recommend checking out the links he provided. On another note, it'd be best to just contact myself, proletarianrevolution or any of the other PSL members on the forum about how to get involved and such.

My favorite part of this thread, however, is maldoror claiming that Marcy is anything like Avakian. We don't promote Marcy's writings as gospel, but we view his theoretical contributions as the most relevant and correct analysis of the class character of workers states and the anti-imperialist movement.

[black magick hustla]

My favorite part of this thread, however, is maldoror claiming that Marcy is anything like Avakian. We don't promote Marcy's writings as gospel, but we view his theoretical contributions as the most relevant and correct analysis of the class character of workers states and the anti-imperialist movement.

to be honest i never said there was a cult around marcy. i simply argued that the only people that read marcy are marcytes - i.e. members of the psl and wwp, because marcy was their founding member and his pabloite leanings basically gave shape to the praxis of those groups today. he was not an important thinker at all.

[Ms. Max]

I think Marcy was an important thinker, but he went down the wrong road. Avakian got it right when setting down what internationalism really means.

[Gorilla]

I think Marcy was an important thinker, but he went down the wrong road. Avakian got it right when setting down what internationalism really means.
Lolz. Nepal says hi.

[Kassad]

I think Marcy was an important thinker, but he went down the wrong road. Avakian got it right when setting down what internationalism really means.

Of course. He left out the part where party members wear t-shirts with pictures of him on it. Revisionist! :rolleyes:

[Chimurenga.]

he was not an important thinker at all.

You know, Sam Marcy would probably agree with you there. I think all Marxists should still check out High Tech Low Pay.

[Kassad]

People I've talked to who knew Sam personally said he was immensely humble. I don't understand why people are convinced that we're promoting his works at all aside from educational purposes. To my knowledge, we don't sell any books he has written. New members read a lot of Marcy's books and essays because they provide an insight to our political analysis; why we defend past and present workers' states, why we unconditionally oppose imperialism etc. That doesn't mean I think Marcy brought forth a whole new understanding of Marxism or anything like that. I just think a modern analysis is something that the works of Marx and Lenin cannot provide, which is where writers like Marcy come in. That's my two cents.

[Ms. Max]

I am glad you are finally coming around to my point of view Kassad. I am knitting you a free T-shirt.

[Kassad]

I am glad you are finally coming around to my point of view Kassad. I am knitting you a free T-shirt.

Classic RCP logic. You make an assertion, they turn the phrase on you. Riddle me this: to what do you attribute the systematic failure of the RCP to recruit young activists?

I'm not as hostile to the RCP as most people are. I think some of their tactical ideas are pretty valid, but the problem is that you're way ahead of yourself. I think if you had dozens or even hundreds of supporters at demonstrations wearing t-shirts of Bob Avakian and promoting Revolution Newspaper, that'd be a powerful statement. The truth of the matter, however, is that the RCP's numbers are dwindling. At every rally I've ever been to, there's usually 2-3 people selling their newspaper.

This is also shown by their new Constitution for a Socialist North America or whatever it's called. Very necessary, if we were expecting a socialist transformation of society sometime soon. The real truth is that the party is losing support fast and all Avakian knew how to do was purge the party (which he did in 2003, purging every member that didn't decree that Avakian's shit didn't stink) and devote all time to promoting his "new synthesis."

So good luck with that. I don't expect to see any RCP members ten years from now, personally.

[Ms. Max]

Sorry, I was kidding.

[Kassad]

Sorry, I was kidding.

No need for apologies. All I'm asking for is to meet one RCP member who addresses comments head-on and doesn't run for cover as soon as someone questions Avakian's teachings.

[Ms. Max]

Sometimes I do see good questions/discussion of Avakians (and others) ideas here, but a lot of times I just see snarky comments. But your comments above about the RCP "being way ahead of yourself" is a good question/comment. I mean, its something real that can be discussed, as opposed to someone just saying "its a cult".

[Kassad]

Sometimes I do see good questions/discussion of Avakians (and others) ideas here, but a lot of times I just see snarky comments. But your comments above about the RCP "being way ahead of yourself" is a good question/comment. I mean, its something real that can be discussed, as opposed to someone just saying "its a cult".

Calling the RCP a cult is just simplistic. All Leninist acknowledge the need for a vanguard party, which also entails acceptance of leadership to some extent. Revolutionary leaders need to prove themselves, however. Avakian has spent decades in the struggle, but I think he needs to look at things objectively. The "new synthesis" is not attracting youth cadres at all. I think the RCP is becoming a relic of the past and their recent activities show how detached their supporters are from reality.

[Ms. Max]

Ok, I think you are talking about real issues now. Unfortunately, for me, this is where a chat room runs into limitations. I'm just not good at typing speed and computer stuff. But briefly, I think what is important is having the correct line, and then as events develop the people will see that and take it up. For example, you could get a lot of fair weather cadre's if you offered free booze, but is that the correct line. Its an absurd example I know, but best I can do right now. For example, I think PSL is one of those who kind of has a "want to join, click this icon" on the web site? So you can get a good count that way, but...

Thanks for the good question, I will have to sign off soon but will try and respond again tomorrow. Another problem I'm having is finding the thread I was looking at the previous day. Bear with me.

[Kassad]

Understandable. I think the internet has changed revolutionary politics for all of us. On another note, you don't become a PSL member by just filling out a form. You have to go through an extensive candidacy period in which the person learns about our party and our line. One must also show a commitment to struggle and revolution. We have a "join the PSL" form on the website, but it is merely so we can get in touch with people who want to join.

[Blackscare]

For example, I think PSL is one of those who kind of has a "want to join, click this icon" on the web site? So you can get a good count that way, but...



As someone who flirted with 'joining' the PSL, I have to say that that's false. They are eager to reach out and invite people to a branch meeting or something, sure, but there's a fairly lengthy and involved process to becoming a "member".

[The Douche]

As someone who flirted with 'joining' the PSL, I have to say that that's false. They are eager to reach out and invite people to a branch meeting or something, sure, but there's a fairly lengthy and involved process to becoming a "member".

Agreed, I have been working with their veteran's anti-imperialist group, and some of them have talked to me about the PSL, but the urge has been for me to come meet them, come to meetings etc, not to get a membership card.

[The Red Next Door]

Calling the RCP a cult is just simplistic. All Leninist acknowledge the need for a vanguard party, which also entails acceptance of leadership to some extent. Revolutionary leaders need to prove themselves, however. Avakian has spent decades in the struggle, but I think he needs to look at things objectively. The "new synthesis" is not attracting youth cadres at all. I think the RCP is becoming a relic of the past and their recent activities show how detached their supporters are from reality.

But, What should you call a group that made people stand up all day and all night chanting and i have heard from an ex member, while he was going through some personally issues, they were really insensitive about it and made his life hell. Plus, in the party, you must report your thoughts and what you have been reading.

[The Red Next Door]

Well, base on past member, it good thing, we have the membership candidacy. I mean, you do not want the wrong person in the party, we do not need more people putting up nasty posters.

[Kassad]

But, What should you call a group that made people stand up all day and all night chanting and i have heard from an ex member, while he was going through some personally issues, they were really insensitive about it and made his life hell. Plus, in the party, you must report your thoughts and what you have been reading.

Stories like this aren't surprising and trust me, there are a lot worse ones that I could tell. However, they're undoing themselves quite well without even the slightest effort on my part and eventually, they'll fade away like the other ostensibly revolutionary organizations that are totally irrelevant.

[graymouser]

Stories like this aren't surprising and trust me, there are a lot worse ones that I could tell. However, they're undoing themselves quite well without even the slightest effort on my part and eventually, they'll fade away like the other ostensibly revolutionary organizations that are totally irrelevant.
I do think that young people should be warned off of the RCP, being in a group like that can fuck you up even though I'm uncomfortable with the word "cult."

But a terminological point. The term "ostensibly revolutionary organization" is frequently used by the Spartacist League and its offshoots, and it should probably be left to them. It just carries some baggage.

[Ms. Max]

But, What should you call a group that made people stand up all day and all night chanting and i have heard from an ex member, while he was going through some personally issues, they were really insensitive about it and made his life hell. Plus, in the party, you must report your thoughts and what you have been reading.

I dunno. So cadres had bad judgment and pressured a guy to stay at a demo when he should have said "no, I really do have to go now". If so that was wrong, but gimme a break with the drama. It's like the guy who was all drama because someone asked him to listen to a DVD on two different occasions.

And I thought the big story was there was "required reading". But when it turns out that's bullshit, now the big story is they ask ya "read any good books lately"?

We need to have good discussion and valid critiques of each other, but this stuff seems like I could use the same technique to dis my anarcho buddies or taco bell or the goddam girl scouts. Let me know if I'm out of line.

[The Douche]

And I thought the big story was there was "required reading".

Are you saying there is not required reading for RCP cadre? I think it would be weird if there wasn't.

I just don't understand the way the RCP has started to develop. It seems like there is a lot less emphasis on the politics in their approach to organizing. This campaign of "make Avakian a household name", I'm sorry, I just don't agree with it, we need to make communist politics a valid and important part of people's lives. Then we can talk about effective leadership.

[Ms. Max]

Are you saying there is not required reading for RCP cadre? I think it would be weird if there wasn't.

I just don't understand the way the RCP has started to develop. It seems like there is a lot less emphasis on the politics in their approach to organizing. This campaign of "make Avakian a household name", I'm sorry, I just don't agree with it, we need to make communist politics a valid and important part of people's lives. Then we can talk about effective leadership.Ouch. Good point. I'm not an actual member, so don't know, but does seems a party would want ya to have actually read the by-laws or constitution of course.

As far as the effort to promote Avakian, I think your question is good. The answer I feel is that it is one part (not the central part) of making communist politics a part of peoples lives. It has done that for me at least. It is not the only thing for me, but it is an important thing for me to know that there is one person accountable to me and the people for leading the effort, and I want to know who that person is, what they think, what there life experience is. And I want them to serve me and the people using the principles of democratic centralism. It is explain and hard to word this, did I do ok?