Lancashire school strike: Teachers walk out over out-of-control pupils

[Tifosi]

Teachers at a Lancashire comprehensive who walked out over the unruly behaviour of their pupils have threatened one-hour strikes unless their headteacher helps them restore discipline.
Seventy of the 80 staff at Darwen Vale high school did not turn up to take lessons on Thursday, saying students are out of control, pushing them, challenging them to fights, and threatening to film their lessons and post them online.
They claimed the headteacher, Hilary Torpey, and her senior colleagues were not consistent in the way they deal with bad behaviour and undermine staff by returning confiscated mobile phones to pupils.
Torpey, who started in November 2009, said she was disappointed that the teachers felt they needed to go on strike and that the vast majority of pupils behaved well.
She said: "We are in discussions about how we can best resolve this situation so that staff feel well supported."
But Simon Jones, a local National Union of Teachers official who was on the picket line, said that while discussions between Torpey and her staff were proceeding, the matter was unlikely to be resolved until May at the earliest.
"We might have to hold one-hour stoppages before the end of the school day so that we carry on making progress," he said.
Jones said at least 10 pupils should be excluded. "There should have been fairly automatic exclusions given the seriousness of some of the incidents," he said.
"Children have been threatening to carry out physical assaults on teachers and making malicious allegations. We want management to accept that there is a problem and to propose some solutions.
"We want a behaviour policy in place so that if a child misbehaves, there are a series of sanctions that are followed through."
He said that of the 1,150 pupils, about a tenth were causing concern by smoking and skipping lessons and about 60 were making physical or verbal threats.
"These are not inherently bad pupils; the vast majority of the pupils are fine. This is about the management's failure to address the problem."
Nadeem Siddiqui, who has taught history at the school for 10 years, said there had been no consistent approach over the banning of mobile phones.
"This has led to more pupils getting out their phones in lessons," he said. "Poor behaviour has escalated because of management's refusal to acknowledge that there is a problem."
Emma Shaw-Mackay, who has a 12-year-old son at the school, said she supported the walk-out. "The teachers' hands are clearly tied when it comes to enforcing discipline. Students have been filming teachers in class and then putting it up on Facebook, at YouTube, which is unacceptable."
Emma's son, Ethan, said he sometimes felt frightened if students were "yelling at teachers". "It doesn't happen that much, but it happens. Some of the kids just don't care. You can tell they're not afraid at all of the teachers."
Harry Devonport, Blackburn with Darwen council's director of education, said: "We are very disappointed that the matter hasn't been resolved without having to resort to strike action.
"We are working with all the parties to ensure there is ongoing dialogue to clarify exactly what the issues are and what actions can be taken to resolve the situation."
The school is being rebuilt and pupils are temporarily in a building which has a capacity of only 800.
On Monday, Michael Gove, the education secretary, issued new guidance to schools on discipline. It reminded teachers that, in extreme circumstances, headteachers could press criminal charges against pupils.
Some 30 teachers who do not work at the school joined the protest in solidarity.

Source (http://m.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/apr/07/lancashire-school-strike-pupils?cat=uk&type=article).

[Dunk]

This sounds like a relatively simple matter to rectify. There should be a strict policy of confiscation with cellphones and cameras. Maybe it doesn't have to be permanent on the first infraction - but it should be serious - something like confiscating the item for months. If the parents don't like it; too bad. Any student who attacks a teacher or another student should be expelled. Threats of violence should result in immediate suspension, more than once - expulsion. It's not safe or fair for the other students or teachers otherwise.

[Lord Testicles]

*Yawn* Children are put in a situation that they evidently don't want to be in so they disrupt the class and are disrespectful to the closest authority figure. I wouldn't want it any other way.


On Monday, Michael Gove, the education secretary, issued new guidance to schools on discipline. It reminded teachers that, in extreme circumstances, headteachers could press criminal charges against pupils.

What a monumental bell end.


If the parents don't like it; too bad.

Or maybe they'd (rightly) fly off the handle because that phone or it's contract is something they will have to pay for whist it sits in some teachers draw.

[psgchisolm]

*Yawn* Children are put in a situation that they evidently don't want to be in so they disrupt the class and are disrespectful to the closest authority figure. I wouldn't want it any other way.
So you want them to fuck around in class when they are supposed to be learning? Of course kids don't like school. It involves getting up early and doing work for hours. But actively supporting kids to be disrespectful to people trying to teach them things so they can leave school and get a decent job to support themselves and not end up like idiots is ok?:confused:


Or maybe they'd (rightly) fly off the handle because that phone or it's contract is something they will have to pay for whist it sits in some teachers draw.Lest it disrupt the class and cause distractions so that none of the kids learn. They could just have a policy for students to have them off during school. If they use them during class teachers can confiscate them and the parents can go get them or the child can get them after school.

[Dunk]

Or maybe they'd (rightly) fly off the handle because that phone or it's contract is something they will have to pay for whist it sits in some teachers draw.

Then they shouldn't allow their children to have cell phones, or they should cancel the plans their children have when they pull the type of crap they've been pulling in that school.

We may be able to recognize that the compulsory nature of schools and it's curriculum in capitalist society is fundamentally a problem because it is compulsory and molds children into workers, rather than the post-capitalist education where people would learn as they please - but it's better than no education at all, which is the current alternative working class families have (which is also illegal in many countries where school is compulsory). In light of this, I see no reason why I should come down on the side of children who are making the lives of their teachers and fellow students hell, as if their work needs to be made more difficult.

Also, I agree that pressing charges against unruly students is stupid.

[nuisance]

What's with this love for the schooling process, its part of the suppression and recuperation of the human spirit. It is there to crush individual revolt by the implemenation of alienation, of course kids are going to kick off.
That said it is of no surprise that the would be social managers of society, leftists, are siding with, or atleast attempting to legitimate, the current social managerial positions.



*Note from Blackscare: I totally didn't realize this was in my forum for a second, and accidentally edited this rather than responded. lul

[Wolfshadow]

What's with this love for the schooling process, its part of the suppression and recuperation of the human spirit. It is there to crush individual revolt by the implemenation of alienation, of course kids are going to kick off.

True but there is kicking off and then there is kicking off because you have no respect and you know you'll get away with it because you can go cry to mommy and show her how poor little jr was picked on by the teacher :thumbdown:

there are so many breakdowns in the raising of children these days you cant put the blame on just one thing other then lack of respect.

[Sensible Socialist]

Instead of trying to force the students into learning, the teachers should recognize the root causes of their behavior. It isn't suprising that students disrupt institutions they are forced to be in.

More power to them.

[A.J.]

erm, I think I side with the kidz on this one.

Surely the function of the education system, like all elements of the superstructure of society, is the impose ruling class ideology(and more specifically it's morality) on the rest of society. Therefore, the more "disruption in the classroom" the better IMHO.

[Robespierre Richard]

Oh man these teens are seriously OUT OF CONTROL

[Tim Finnegan]

Surely the function of the education system, like all elements of the superstructure of society, is the impose ruling class ideology(and more specifically it's morality) on the rest of society. Therefore, the more "disruption in the classroom" the better IMHO.
This sort of cheap posturing really doesn't make a very good case for the far-left. At the very least, Sensible Socialist offered the beginnings of some deeper analysis, but this is simply juvenile.

I don't know if you folk are all so far from your education that you're forgetting the sort of little shits that were actually responsible for this sort of problem- or perhaps just so far from the realities of post-industrial working class life to have ever had to deal with said little shits- but romanticising a thoroughly bourgeois form of dissent on grounds apparently no more substantially that the simple fact that it is a form of dissent leaves me embarrassed for the lot of us.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

the whole nature of the school system is backwards, address that. kids still have to wear uniforms. it clearly doesn't work for a lot of kids and will work less and less. the way fe colleges are set up actually work a lot better. you can't expect adolescents to be uniform wearing, phoneless zombies. that's not what they are and if you try to make them be such, they will rebel.

i sympathise with the teachers, but the problem is with the educational system itself, and the way it is organised.

[Blackscare]

What's with this love for the schooling process, its part of the suppression and recuperation of the human spirit. It is there to crush individual revolt by the implemenation of alienation, of course kids are going to kick off.


Oh come the fuck off it, 99.00% of the time you only hear this type of shit from spoiled first world anarkiddies and the like. Ask an Afghani girl in the Saur revolution (well, she was probably killed so no dice there) if some compulsory state education is repressive or liberatory.



It's amazing, really, give a british anarcho something probably the majority of people in the world would jump at; free and mandatory schooling for all kids, and it becomes an insufferable boot on the neck.


For all the faults of the schooling system under capitalism, if you really think that state/compulsory schooling isn't extremely fucking progressive compared to the vast majority of really existing alternatives, you're so divorced from reality it's laughable.





Sorry to totally lose my cool, but this particular argument always baffles and enrages me.

[Invader Zim]

This thread is loaded with so much crap it is hard to actually fathom. Firstly, as noted above, sending kids to school - a right denied in many other parts of the world - is something to fight tooth and nail to maintain.

Secondly, teachers should have to go to their workplace and suffer the threat of violence.

[StalinFanboy]

People comparing this to the third world need to shh. You might as well say that all those pesky first world workers and communists that hate wage-labor and want to fight for a world free of work should humble themselves because a stable capitalist democracy with jobs would be loads better for people in Somalia.

[Tim Finnegan]

People comparing this to the third world need to shh. You might as well say that all those pesky first world workers and communists that hate wage-labor and want to fight for a world free of work should humble themselves because a stable capitalist democracy with jobs would be loads better for people in Somalia.
Right, because it's a stark, black-and-white, one-or-the-other choice between utterly denying even the slightest accusation of imperfection on the part of the contemporary education system - right down to those levelled by educators themselves- and advocating that all teachers be knifed fer deh revullooshuns. THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND.

Y'know, I'm really wondering why cuts to public education have become such a flagship issue for the left, if all that it manages to achieve is, apparently, the further indoctrination of the working class. You'd think that these buggers'd be cheering Cameron on for his valiant deconstruction of the tyrannical bourgeois education system.

[StalinFanboy]

Right, because it's a stark, black-and-white, one-or-the-other choice between utterly denying even the slightest accusation of imperfection on the part of the contemporary education system - right down to those levelled by educators themselves- and advocating that all teachers be knifed fer deh revullooshuns. THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND.

Strawman after strawman...

The argument put forth by Edelwiess Pirate and a couple others is that education is an alienating and miserable institution that reproduces capitalist class society. The counter-argument then put forth by Blackscare and a couple others is that British teenagers should be grateful for their schooling because a girl in Afghanistan doesn't have access to it. This is not an acceptable counter-argument. And it is the same argument I hear from all sort of liberals and conservatives and other up-holders of the status quo.

I am not saying that student should kill their teachers. Education is part of a social relationship that is not embodied or created by any particular individual, and killing someone doesn't change that relationship. But at the same time I understand why those kids are acting the way they are.

But regardless of their behavior, or the condition of someone in a completely different situation than the one we are talking about, education does play a specific role in capitalist society, and should be dismantled. No one is saying that learning is bad, and anyone who equates learning to education should get their head out of their asses. What we are calling for is the destruction of not only an institution that serves only to produce and train workers, but one that separates our lives into separate and alienating spheres of activity, the destruction of which is the communist project.

[Tim Finnegan]

Strawman after strawman...
I'm not sure that it's reasonable to call deliberate, blatantly mocking hyperbole a "strawman", at least not if you have the slightest interest in preserving the term as anything more than the textual equivalent of a reproachful sniff.


The argument put forth by Edelwiess Pirate and a couple others is that education is an alienating and miserable institution that reproduces capitalist class society. The counter-argument then put forth by Blackscare and a couple others is that British teenagers should be grateful for their schooling because a girl in Afghanistan doesn't have access to it. This is not an acceptable counter-argument. And it is the same argument I hear from all sort of liberals and conservatives and other up-holders of the status quo.Well, firstly, I'm not at all sure that Blackscare, Zim, or myself were responding to Edelwiess Pirate, who indeed makes fair points, but to the fetishation of petty delinquency by the likes of Skinz and Armani Hammer.
Secondly, I don't believe that Blackscare ever suggested that the contemporary system wasn't in need of reform, but, rather, that what we've got now is a damn sight better than nothing, and those who prefer pointless chaos to a glass half full are evidently unaware of exactly how privileged they really are. As psgchisolm observes, there's no particular glory in churning out a generation of feckless lumpens.


I am not saying that student should kill their teachers. Education is part of a social relationship that is not embodied or created by any particular individual, and killing someone doesn't change that relationship. But at the same time I understand why those kids are acting the way they are.Indeed, we shouldn't treat this behaviour as nothing more than a series of coincidental individual pathologies, or ignore structural influences, but doing so doesn't actually mean we have to go so far as to express support for the little fuckers. That's pseudo-radical posturing at its most embarrassing.


But regardless of their behavior, or the condition of someone in a completely different situation than the one we are talking about, education does play a specific role in capitalist society, and should be dismantled. No one is saying that learning is bad, and anyone who equates learning to education should get their head out of their asses. What we are calling for is the destruction of not only an institution that serves only to produce and train workers, but one that separates our lives into separate and alienating spheres of activity, the destruction of which is the communist project.Of course, but dicking around in class isn't exactly advancing that project, is it?

[StalinFanboy]

Well, firstly, I'm not at all sure that Blackscare, Zim, or myself were responding to Edelwiess Pirate, who indeed makes fair points, but to the fetishation of petty delinquency by the likes of Skinz and Armani Hammer.
Secondly, I don't believe that Blackscare ever suggested that the contemporary system wasn't in need of reform, but, rather, that what we've got now is a damn sight better than nothing, and those who prefer pointless chaos to a glass half full are evidently unaware of exactly how privileged they really are. As psgchisolm observes, there's no particular glory in churning out a generation of feckless lumpens. First of all, who hasn't dreamt of braining the teacher that describes any set of Western imperialist wars as something positive? Or the goddamn administrators? There's certainly a part of me that celebrates when I hear of those people getting hurt, despite me knowing it is a decidedly anti-worker position. I believe the Situationists had a slogan that said "professors you make us old!" Second, Blackscares post about the girl from Afghanistan was quoting Edelwiesses post.

I don't think the education system should be reformed. I think it should be done away with altogether. In response to you older post that you edited while I was replying, the reason why the Left flocks to education movements is because it is a battleground. Working people are going to defend their positions against austerity measures regardless of what the Left is doing. It is a matter of self-interest, just as every struggle is. I myself have been involved in the student movement over the last year despite my hatred of education because where I live it is easier to go to school and get financial aid than find a job. My major was cut, which makes it awfully hard to transfer to a 4 year institution, as that was what I had wanted to do for a while. We learn to fight by fighting. I would hardly say that movements for better pay in the work place are going to become revolutionary movements, but these fights create consciousness, none the less.

No one has suggested abolishing education while leaving the rest of the system intact. It's all or nothing.


Indeed, we shouldn't treat this behaviour as nothing more than a series of coincidental individual pathologies, or ignore structural influences, but doing so doesn't actually mean we have to go so far as to express support for the little fuckers. That's pseudo-radical posturing at its most embarrassing. Your condemnation of those "little fuckers," in my eyes, is just as reactionary as supporting them. Anti-social violence like this is an outcome of capitalism. And it is seen more and more when the working class is losing.


Of course, but dicking around in class isn't exactly advancing that project, is it?
No one ever said it was bro nice try though

[Tim Finnegan]

First of all, who hasn't dreamt of braining the teacher that describes any set of Western imperialist wars as something positive? Or the goddamn administrators? There's certainly a part of me that celebrates when I hear of those people getting hurt, despite me knowing it is a decidedly anti-worker position. I believe the Situationists had a slogan that said "professors you make us old!"
I'd say that there's a pretty crucial difference between a passive resentment of conservative ideologues and bureaucratic busybodies and what we're seeing here.


Second, Blackscares post about the girl from Afghanistan was quoting Edelwiesses post.Ok, yes, the first part was, my mistake, but the rest of it seemed more generally aimed.


I don't think the education system should be reformed. I think it should be done away with altogether. In response to you older post that you edited while I was replying, the reason why the Left flocks to education movements is because it is a battleground. Working people are going to defend their positions against austerity measures regardless of what the Left is doing. It is a matter of self-interest, just as every struggle is. I myself have been involved in the student movement over the last year despite my hatred of education because where I live it is easier to go to school and get financial aid than find a job. My major was cut, which makes it awfully hard to transfer to a 4 year institution, as that was what I had wanted to do for a while. We learn to fight by fighting. I would hardly say that movements for better pay in the work place are going to become revolutionary movements, but these fights create consciousness, none the less.

No one has suggested abolishing education while leaving the rest of the system intact. It's all or nothing.Reformed, revolutionised, whatever. You're reading a little bit too much in to off-hand word choice here; I really just meant "changed in such a fashion as to become more ideal".

(And, for the record, yes, I did add something speculating about why the left treats education issues as flagships if the system itself is as heinous as some here argue, but I removed it because it seemed to be straying from the subject a bit.)


Your condemnation of those "little fuckers," in my eyes, is just as reactionary as supporting them.Did you grow up in a post-industrial British town? You'd probably have some idea of where my bitterness comes from if you did.


Anti-social violence like this is an outcome of capitalism. And it is seen more and more when the working class is losing.I hardly see how that legitimises the sort of support for this behaviour suggested elsewhere in the thread. Cheering on the self-mutilation of the working class is hardly a radical position.


No one ever said it was bro nice try thoughDidn't say that they did, just that those would be the only circumstances under which one could legitimately cheer on juvenile delinquency as a radical action.

[StalinFanboy]

I'd say that there's a pretty crucial difference between a resenment of conservative ideologues and bureaucratic busybodies and what we're saying here. It doesn't matter if they are liberal or conservative, their role in society as teachers is one of indoctrination and the reproduction of workers. That is what education does, and that is what teachers do.



Reformed, revolutionised, whatever. You're reading a little bit too much in to off-hand word choice here; I really just meant "changed in such a fashion as to become more ideal". I don't think there should be a formal education system at all.


(And, for the record, yes, I did add something speculating about why the left treats education issues as flagships if the system itself is as heinous as some here argue, but I removed it because it seemed to be straying from the subject a bit.) alright



Did you grow up in a post-industrial British town? You'd probably have some idea of where my bitterness comes from if you did. This is neither here nor there. I know what sort of kids you are talking about. I don't harbor any sort of resentment or disdain for those whose souls have been destroyed by capital.



I hardly see how that legitimises the sort of support for this behaviour suggested elsewhere in the thread. Cheering on the self-mutilation of the working class is hardly a radical position. Right cause this is what I'm doing? Wrong. What I'm interested in is understanding why this stuff happens. Not taking sides against or with, like I said, people who have been beaten down and destroyed by capital. That was not a moralizing statement.



Didn't say that they did.
Then why say it at all? No one is cheering any of this on as "radical action."

[Tim Finnegan]

It doesn't matter if they are liberal or conservative, their role in society as teachers is one of indoctrination and the reproduction of workers. That is what education does, and that is what teachers do.
That's reductive to the point of absurdity.


I don't think there should be a formal education system at all.
A debate in itself.


This is neither here nor there. I know what sort of kids you are talking about. I don't harbor any sort of resentment or disdain for those whose souls have been destroyed by capital.
The general victimisation of a class does not justify individual anti-social behaviour. Most people get by without having to be bawbags about it.


Right cause this is what I'm doing? Wrong. What I'm interested in is understanding why this stuff happens. Not taking sides against or with, like I said, people who have been beaten down and destroyed by capital. That was not a moralizing statement.
Again, didn't say you did.


Then why say it at all? No one is cheering any of this on as "radical action."

*Yawn* Children are put in a situation that they evidently don't want to be in so they disrupt the class and are disrespectful to the closest authority figure. I wouldn't want it any other way.

erm, I think I side with the kidz on this one.
Uh huh.

[Invader Zim]

their role in society as teachers is one of indoctrination and the reproduction of workers.

Well, I am a part time teacher of sorts, admittedly not at school level, and I kind of feal bad for being a part of a group that has clearly failed you so badly. Clearly you learned very little. So on behalf of all of us who work, have worked, or shall work in the field of education; I'm sorry that you're an ignorant asshat. We have failed you. It is at least in part our fault.

But for some of your other 'gems':


First of all, who hasn't dreamt of braining the teacher that describes any set of Western imperialist wars as something positive?

Well, for a start, I haven't. I don't have random voilent impulses - perhaps you should see somebody about those. Suggesting that it is excusable to assault a person for saying something you disagree with or think is stupid would no doubt result in your regularly receiving a diserved beating if your contributions to this thread is anything to go by. In fact that comment I've just quoted of yours is stupid and offends my delicate sensibilities, so by rights you are already overdue a "braining". So kindly take a job as a teacher and take your punishment.


Or the goddamn administrators?
And what about those who do the caretaking? After all, they're supporting the education system you find so very oppressive. Or those manning the cafeteria? Or the cleaners? Do your violent urges extend to them too?


There's certainly a part of me that celebrates when I hear of those people getting hurt,

So there is a part of you that is basically a sociopath? Like I said, perhaps you should "see" someone about that.


despite me knowing it is a decidedly anti-worker position.

Well,we agree on that at least; you're a reactionary troll.


I think it should be done away with altogether.

And that is because you are apparently one part sociopath and the other part plain ignorant. In fact, if you don't see why free education for all is a massively progressive social institution and ideal then you probably don't belong outside of opposing ideologies.

[Lord Testicles]

Uh huh.

How is what I said there anything close to cheering this as a radical action?

[StalinFanboy]

That's reductive to the point of absurdity. lol ok



The general victimisation of a class does not justify individual anti-social behaviour. Most people get by without having to be bawbags about it. Dude... wat? I'm not justifying or excusing it. I am interested in the reason for it happening.



Again, didn't say you did.




Uh huh.
I don't see how Skinz post was cheering this on as a radical action, and I thanked Armani's post for their comment on the role education plays in capitalist society.


Well, I am a part time teacher of sorts, admittedly not at school level, and I kind of feal bad for being a part of a group that has clearly failed you so badly. Clearly you learned very little. So on behalf of all of us who work, have worked, or shall work in the field of education; I'm sorry that you're an ignorant asshat. We have failed you. It is at least in part our fault. And I am sorry that all you can resort to are these pitiful emotional knee-jerk reactions. You do realize that all workers reproduce class society, right? And that the way teachers do this is through training and indoctrinating future workers? If you can't see this, then I don't know why you are in radical politics.

You remind me of those anarchists that think they can also be landlords. SORRY, your ideology does not change your material condition or the relationship you have to the rest of society.




Well, for a start, I haven't. I don't have random voilent impulses - perhaps you should see somebody about those. Suggesting that it is excusable to assault a person for saying something you disagree with or think is stupid would no doubt result in your regularly receiving a diserved beating if your contributions to this thread is anything to go by. In fact that comment I've just quoted of yours is stupid and offends my delicate sensibilities, so by rights you are already overdue a "braining". So kindly take a job as a teacher and take your punishment.

Perhaps you shouldn't let your emotions get in the way your reading skills. I never said it was excusable to assault anyone. I see you kindly ignored the post where I said that education is part of a social relationship, and killing or hurting people doesn't change that social relationship.

"Suggesting that it is excusable to assault a person for saying something you disagree with or think is stupid would no doubt result in your regularly receiving a diserved beating if your contributions to this thread is anything to go by." Yeah you clearly can't read and are just relying on knee-jerk emotional reactions.



And what about those who do the caretaking? After all, they're supporting the education system you find so very oppressive. Or those manning the cafeteria? Or the cleaners? Do your violent urges extend to them too? I can't tell at this point if you're actually an idiot or are just deliberately being stupid. lol MUST BE BECAUSE I HAD SHITTY TEACHERS AMIRITE?




So there is a part of you that is basically a sociopath? Like I said, perhaps you should "see" someone about that.


Well,we agree on that at least; you're a reactionary troll. Says the person defending bourgeois education :rolleyes:

Sorry that I assumed you were intelligent enough to understand that I was implying that only a part of me feels hatred toward teachers and it does not inform my political position. If you had even paid a little bit of attention to the entire content of my posts you will have seen this. Especially where I said that violence toward teachers isn't the answer. Multiple times. Or that it isn't excusable.

Apparently hyperbole is also lost on the nets...



And that is because you are apparently one part sociopath and the other part plain ignorant. In fact, if you don't see why free education for all is a massively progressive social institution and ideal then you probably don't belong outside of opposing ideologies.

If only they restricted people for being unable to read as well. All you've done is nitpick my posts and taken the things I've said out of context. At least Tim has taken on my points as they are, without resorting to the infantile behavior that you have. Seriously, engage me like an adult, or get out of this thread.

[Invader Zim]

And I am sorry that all you can resort to are these pitiful emotional knee-jerk reactions.

My reaction was none of those things.


You do realize that all workers reproduce class society, right? And that the way teachers do this is through training and indoctrinating future workers? If you can't see this, then I don't know why you are in radical politics.

If you think that teachers, teaching and the entire institution of education can be reduced into a single monolithic structure, then you are a fool.


Perhaps you shouldn't let your emotions get in the way your reading skills. I never said it was excusable to assault anyone.

You said, and I quote:

"who hasn't dreamt of braining the teacher that describes any set of Western imperialist wars as something positive? Or the goddamn administrators? There's certainly a part of me that celebrates when I hear of those people getting hurt,"



I haven't misrepresented you, misquoted you or taken what you said out of context. You said that, and that makes you a reactionary tool. You even admit that the above is "anti-worker", which it absolutely is.


I see you kindly ignored the post where I said that education is part of a social relationship, and killing or hurting people doesn't change that social relationship.

I ignored it because it is irrelevent, it shows that while you know that such an act of assault wouldn't alter the situation as you perceive it, but that a part of you wants to do it anyway and that you have absolutely zero qualms when it does happen - in fact you offer vacuous apologmism for it.


I can't tell at this point if you're actually an idiot or are just deliberately being stupid. lol MUST BE BECAUSE I HAD SHITTY TEACHERS AMIRITE?
An obvious attempt to ignore the question. Does your apologism, and fetishism, for violence directed at school staff extend to other auxiliary roles necessary to the schools continued function?


Says the person defending bourgeois education

While your [mis]use of leftist sounding rhetoric may sound good in that emply space between your ears it doesn't impress anybody else. Suggesting that I am defend "bourgeois education" does not imply that I defend the existing system, what it implies is that I defend the system as it applies to the children of the bourgeoisie - i.e. the British Public School system. What you meant to imply was that I support the existing state education system constructed by the ruling elites for society in general. A not particularly subtle difference to what you actually said. But never mind.

As it happens I do defend universal education as both an idea and an institution. The social advancement that is education was one which was hard fought for, stripping education as a commodity of the ruling classes with which to extend their domination over the working classes. Demanding, and receiving universal education was an act of progressive empowerment. That does not imply that the system is not a deeply flawed one which still favours the ruling elite and the expense of the poorest elements of society and is in need of being completely torn down and reconstructed. So in that respect I am very much against what you erroniously describe as "bourgeois education".



Sorry that I assumed you were intelligent enough to understand that I was implying that only a part of me feels hatred toward teachers and it does not inform my political position.

I noted full well that your post included the word 'part'. Clearly it is you who hasn't read my post properly rather than the other way round.


Or that it isn't excusable.

No, an act of perfunctory flip-flopping lip service, because you clearly you are actually dimly aware that your position is extremely reactionary, which flies in the face of the overwhelming message within your post does not cut it. Quite clearly the over-arching message of your posts is that these kids assaulting teachers is both understandable and excusable, and ultimately that the teachers at the heart of this thread shouldn't engage in industrial action to prevent their saftey because teachers have it coming.

Now cue whining and moaning that I'm taking you out of context.

[El Chuncho]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_cqlNsIZ9IeA/RqDZAhR-ijI/AAAAAAAAADo/bWQV626ZRxs/s400/Power%2Bto%2Bthe%2BPeople.gif

:laugh: Actually the students acting unruly is probably more the fault of the teachers being bad role-models, and being overzealous with punishments and harsh comments.

[Invader Zim]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_cqlNsIZ9IeA/RqDZAhR-ijI/AAAAAAAAADo/bWQV626ZRxs/s400/Power%2Bto%2Bthe%2BPeople.gif

:laugh: Actually the students acting unruly is probably more the fault of the teachers being bad role-models, and being overzealous with punishments and harsh comments.


Clearly you didn't attend the kind of schools I did.

[El Chuncho]

Clearly you didn't attend the kind of schools I did.

Maybe not, what kind of schools did you attend? :confused: Mine was rough and brutal, and I do blame some of the problems on the teachers, even if I do not blame them for all the problems in school, some was due to parentage, others due to the British class system and poverty.

The divide between student and teacher was quite great in my school, with a few exceptions.

[psgchisolm]

Clearly you didn't attend the kind of schools I did.Agreed. Most of the students in my school like our teachers and regularly defend them. It's not even like my school is anything special. SC is in the lowest percentile in terms of education in the US. Even so, the students like their teachers even the students that get the most write ups. That said that's my school. Of course the teachers are probably as proletarian as you can get in my specific location. No special wages, not getting paid one month next year so they can save from getting cuts ect. Usually the students compalin about learning things they won't need Algebra 2 chemistry ect. They don't blame the teachers, hell I can go and say they love the teachers more than the school. Rightfully so, our teachers are as down to earth as you can get. Exemplary role-models. Fuck I'm gonna miss school.

[Invader Zim]

Maybe not, what kind of schools did you attend? :confused: Mine was rough and brutal, and I do blame some of the problems on the teachers, even if I do not blame them for all the problems in school, some was due to parentage, others due to the British class system and poverty.

The divide between student and teacher was quite great in my school, with a few exceptions.


I attended my local comprehensive, and it seemed neither particulalry good nor bad. But it was quite clear that the teachers who received the most abuse from pupils were those who were percievied to be weaker - and that had nothing to do with whether that teacher held a particularly authoritarian attitude.

But I note what you state now is subtly different, and I actually agree with. I think, like you now suggest, a whole host of factors are behind why some kids are distinctly unpleasant to those trying to educate them.

[Tim Finnegan]

How is what I said there anything close to cheering this as a radical action?
I inferred it from the fact that you were expressing ideologically-based sympathy on a forum entitled "RevLeft".


lol ok
You're denying that the education system plays any social role beyond the ideological? Then what was all that algebra about, exactly? :confused:


Dude... wat? I'm not justifying or excusing it. I am interested in the reason for it happening.You said that you don't blame "those who have had their souls destroyed by capitalism", as if the working class was homogeneous victim-blob, incapable of individual anti-social behaviour.


I don't see how Skinz post was cheering this on as a radical action, and I thanked Armani's post for their comment on the role education plays in capitalist society.I've addressed Skinz above, and Armani, while making half of a decent point, soiled it with his politically bankrupt reaction, i.e. supporting anti-social behaviour for its own sake.

[StalinFanboy]

My reaction was none of those things. Actually yes it was, because instead of engaging the actual arguments I've made you went on about how I've had bad teachers (as if the only reason someone would be against education and understand it to be an institution that reproduces class society is because they've had bad teachers - you condescending fuck) and how I've offended you because you're a teacher or something.




If you think that teachers, teaching and the entire institution of education can be reduced into a single monolithic structure, then you are a fool. So you're denying that education exists to prepare kids for the working world? Alright dude.




You said, and I quote:

"who hasn't dreamt of braining the teacher that describes any set of Western imperialist wars as something positive? Or the goddamn administrators? There's certainly a part of me that celebrates when I hear of those people getting hurt,"



I haven't misrepresented you, misquoted you or taken what you said out of context. You said that, and that makes you a reactionary tool. You even admit that the above is "anti-worker", which it absolutely is. Right, that is called empathy. I remember my time in school and how much it sucked. Care to point out where I said attacking teachers is a good thing? Or that I support it. Or that I actually had any desire to do anyone harm? Oh wait. You can't, 'cause I never did.




I ignored it because it is irrelevent, it shows that while you know that such an act of assault wouldn't alter the situation as you perceive it, but that a part of you wants to do it anyway and that you have absolutely zero qualms when it does happen - in fact you offer vacuous apologmism for it. You're an idiot. Being able to empathize with people does not equal support.



An obvious attempt to ignore the question. Does your apologism, and fetishism, for violence directed at school staff extend to other auxiliary roles necessary to the schools continued function? I never said I supported violence against workers. Grow the fuck up.




While your [mis]use of leftist sounding rhetoric may sound good in that emply space between your ears it doesn't impress anybody else. Suggesting that I am defend "bourgeois education" does not imply that I defend the existing system, what it implies is that I defend the system as it applies to the children of the bourgeoisie - i.e. the British Public School system. What you meant to imply was that I support the existing state education system constructed by the ruling elites for society in general. A not particularly subtle difference to what you actually said. But never mind.

It is bourgeois in that its role is to continue and reproduce bourgeois society. It is bourgeois society in that it is ruled by bourgeois ideals and it is the bourgeoisie that run and operate it.

But this is you, again, not actually engaging with my arguments, but being a nit-picky douche bag.



As it happens I do defend universal education as both an idea and an institution. The social advancement that is education was one which was hard fought for, stripping education as a commodity of the ruling classes with which to extend their domination over the working classes. Demanding, and receiving universal education was an act of progressive empowerment. That does not imply that the system is not a deeply flawed one which still favours the ruling elite and the expense of the poorest elements of society and is in need of being completely torn down and reconstructed. So in that respect I am very much against what you erroniously describe as "bourgeois education".


Right, and within the confines of capitalism, having access to education is a good thing. But then, I am a communist, and the communist project seeks to destroy the capitalist world and everything that makes it up. The communist project necessitates the destruction of education as an institution.




No, an act of perfunctory flip-flopping lip service, because you clearly you are actually dimly aware that your position is extremely reactionary, which flies in the face of the overwhelming message within your post does not cut it. Quite clearly the over-arching message of your posts is that these kids assaulting teachers is both understandable and excusable, and ultimately that the teachers at the heart of this thread shouldn't engage in industrial action to prevent their saftey because teachers have it coming.

No. My position, which you ignore in your attempts to paint me as some sort of sociopath that loves violence, is that education is an institution that reproduces class society and divides our lives into separate and alienating spheres of activity. Part of the communist project is to abolish this. This is the over-arching message of my posts.

No where did I say that teachers "have it coming" or that violence is an acceptable way to abolish that particular social relationship. But because I refuse to condemn kids thrown into a miserable and alienating situation, and am interested in looking at why people shoot up their offices or schools or kill themselves, I am somehow this terrible person.



You're denying that the education system plays any social role beyond the ideological? Then what was all that algebra about, exactly? :confused: The very format that public education takes. The way it is physically set up. The relationships created between student and teacher. All of this is political. All of it is designed to teach people to behave certain ways.

Not to mention that it is stupid to assume that education has a function other than preparing kids for life in the "real world," aka the working world.


You said that you don't blame "those who have had their souls destroyed by capitalism", as if the working class was homogeneous victim-blob, incapable of individual anti-social behaviour. This has nothing to do with what I said. People who commit anti-social violence are not born that way. They are products of class society.

Maybe we should just lock up gang members and everyone else that does something fucked up instead of looking at the root causes. Weren't you the one getting mad at me because I said it was stupid to analyse the political nature of a hollywood movie? How is that unacceptable but what I am doing is a sin?



I've addressed Skinz above, and Armani, while making half of a decent point, soiled it with his politically bankrupt reaction, i.e. supporting anti-social behaviour for its own sake.
Yes, supporting anti-social behavior and those who commit it is bankrupt, but so is condemning them.

[Tim Finnegan]

The very format that public education takes. The way it is physically set up. The relationships created between student and teacher. All of this is political. All of it is designed to teach people to behave certain ways.
Yes, but you cannot reduce it to that without insisting upon the self-imposition of a world view so bleak as to be incapacitating. I almost feel obliged to invent a term like "Orwell-goggles" to describe what you're suggesting.


Not to mention that it is stupid to assume that education has a function other than preparing kids for life in the "real world," aka the working world.As if that was in itself heinous.


This has nothing to do with what I said. People who commit anti-social violence are not born that way. They are products of class society.

Maybe we should just lock up gang members and everyone else that does something fucked up instead of looking at the root causes. Weren't you the one getting mad at me because I said it was stupid to analyse the political nature of a hollywood movie? How is that unacceptable but what I am doing is a sin?I'm not excluding the possibility of social investigation; in fact, I would very much advocate it. I just don't think that a recognition of structural factors means refusing to address the fact of individual anti-social behaviour and acting accordingly; the two are hardly mutually exclusive. That's hardly the same as specifically rejecting the very notion of critical viewership because "bleugh boring", which was about all you offered in the other thread.


Yes, supporting anti-social behavior and those who commit it is bankrupt, but so is condemning them.Nonsense. Nobody made them act like that, and most people in their situation manage to act like halfway decent human beings despite their circumstances. Men may not make history as they please, to borrow from Marx, but they damn well make it.

[Invader Zim]

Actually yes it was, because instead of engaging the actual arguments I've made you went on about how I've had bad teachers (as if the only reason someone would be against education and understand it to be an institution that reproduces class society is because they've had bad teachers - you condescending fuck) and how I've offended you because you're a teacher or something.
Which is of course all bullshit, because I did question the arguments of your post and received little in answer - other of course than you whining.

Incidentally, for all your blather about my alleged inability to read, I never said that the failure of teachers was the only reason you are as ignorant as you are arrogant - it is just one failing of many.


So you're denying that education exists to prepare kids for the working world?

Which in of it self, as Tim has noted, not necessarily a bad thing. But it is also at least partly untrue. If it were true education would be geared only towards providing pupils with vocational training and skills. Plainly that is not the case. In fact the vast majority of the latter part of school eductaion has little, if any, practical application. It rests on the thesis knowledge should be imparted for its own sake. For example, what practical application in the modern job market do you believe that a detailed analysis of one of Shakespeare's plays provide a pupil? Indeed the entire focus of the humanities in the education system is divorced from the practical end of those disiplines. In history the classic approach is taken towards eductaion, imparting knowledge, informing students of key debates and major historical perspectives. What it does not do provide students with an insight into the marketable elements of the subject, such as heritage, archiving, paleographical skills, etc. i.e. skills you could actually use in a related industry - because contrary to your assertions that is not what education is all about, even in western capitalist countries.


Right, that is called empathy.
Ok. But would you have empathy for the kids if they were assaulting cafetera staff, which I note you still haven't addressed.

And what about empathy for the people being assaulted?


Care to point out where I said attacking teachers is a good thing?

Oh please, you have offered nothing but apologism for a position which states that it is OK for school kids to assault teachers and other staff within the eductaion system, and attempted to shift the responsibility for committing acts of assaults against workers away from those actually committing these acts onto the people being assaulted. Indeed you even said that a part of you wishes that it could join in.


I never said I supported violence against workers. Grow the fuck up.

No, a "part" of you actively celebrates it, while the other part comes on here and tries to justify and excuse it.



But this is you, again, not actually engaging with my arguments, but being a nit-picky douche bag.

I did address your actual argument just below, the prurpose of that paragraph was to show that you're just another poser spewing rhetoric they don't actually understand.


Right, and within the confines of capitalism, having access to education is a good thing. But then, I am a communist, and the communist project seeks to destroy the capitalist world and everything that makes it up. The communist project necessitates the destruction of education as an institution.

What and education won't be necessary in a post-revolutionary society? Are you dense?


paint me as some sort of sociopath that loves violence

You're the one who stated that you entertain fantasies of "braining" school staff, and that a "part" of you "celebrates" when it actually occurs. I don't need to paint you as anything, it is there in black and white for all to see.



No where did I say that teachers "have it coming" or that violence is an acceptable way to abolish that particular social relationship.

Yet this is implicity what you have argued.

[black magick hustla]

when i was a kid i wanted to torch down my school and i still want to torch down schools

[Tim Finnegan]

when i was a kid i wanted to torch down my school and i still want to torch down schools
"When" you were a kid? With that sort of desperately macho swagger, you'd hardly know the difference.

[Os Cangaceiros]

So the world got compulsary schooling at the end of a state bayonet for the first time in human history; modern forced schooling started in Prussia in 1819 with a clear vision of what centralized schools could deliver:
- Obedient soldiers to the army;
- Obedient workers to the mines;
- Well subordinated civil servants to government;
- Well subordinated clerks to industry
- Citizens who thought alike about major issues.

Learnin's good, though. I like learnin'.

[HEAD ICE]

"When" you were a kid? With that sort of desperately macho swagger, you'd hardly know the difference.

I'm astounded that you aren't an american

[altnet]

Students will work and pay attention in school to what end? Their education is utterly worthless in today's world as they will just grow old whilst being enslaved by corporate "free market" enterprise. They will work for a wage that they can barely scrape by on while simultaneously being exploited for their labor. Education can only help a student rise to a certain point in the current system that grips the world. If they manage to break free of their environment, which can be drowned in crime due to poverty and lack of social programs, and rise in class they only attain the position of the exploiter. They then crack the whip on the proletarian class while the top 1% of the capital hoarding class watches and laughs. They may attain the rank of petite bourgeoisie and believe themselves secure only to one day have all of their life savings stolen by their capitalist masters. I believe that before placing blame on the students, one must analyze this brutal system of oppression used to keep the classes in place so that they may serve unflinchingly. What does society expect to happen when students face such a bleak future and were raised in terrible conditions infested with crime and general strife?

Yes, the students should indeed listen and learn although what do they attain from such endeavors? Nothing at all in the long run. They will still be exploited and trampled upon by a new era of globalization and profit maximizing institutions not at all concerned with the individual. Apathy permeates the mind; in the end the student only choses the level at which he or she is exploited, nothing more. That is how I feel about the matter anyway.

[Tim Finnegan]

I'm astounded that you aren't an american
Haven't the foggiest what that's supposed to mean, m'fraid. :confused:

[Invader Zim]

Students will work and pay attention in school to what end? Their education is utterly worthless in today's world as they will just grow old whilst being enslaved by corporate "free market" enterprise. They will work for a wage that they can barely scrape by on while simultaneously being exploited for their labor. Education can only help a student rise to a certain point in the current system that grips the world. If they manage to break free of their environment, which can be drowned in crime due to poverty and lack of social programs, and rise in class they only attain the position of the exploiter. They then crack the whip on the proletarian class while the top 1% of the capital hoarding class watches and laughs. They may attain the rank of petite bourgeoisie and believe themselves secure only to one day have all of their life savings stolen by their capitalist masters. I believe that before placing blame on the students, one must analyze this brutal system of oppression used to keep the classes in place so that they may serve unflinchingly. What does society expect to happen when students face such a bleak future and were raised in terrible conditions infested with crime and general strife?

Yes, the students should indeed listen and learn although what do they attain from such endeavors? Nothing at all in the long run. They will still be exploited and trampled upon by a new era of globalization and profit maximizing institutions not at all concerned with the individual. Apathy permeates the mind; in the end the student only choses the level at which he is exploited, nothing more. That is how I feel about the matter anyway.

You are correct in suggesting that, regardless of educational qualifications, most will end up selling their labour and ultimately being ripped off. That is a fact of capitalism, yes. However, under capitalism your labour becomes a commodity within a market. Education, and skills, are seen as evidence of your labour being a more valuable commodity and when you sell it chanses are you will receive more and have more offers. So as you note the student ends up only choosing the level at shich s/he is exploited. But realistically speaking you do not want to be on the bottom level of capitalism, in fact realistically you want to be as far away as possible.

[altnet]

You are correct in suggesting that, regardless of educational qualifications, most will end up selling their labour and ultimately being ripped off. That is a fact of capitalism, yes. However, under capitalism your labour becomes a commodity within a market. Education, and skills, are seen as evidence of your labour being a more valuable commodity and when you sell it chanses are you will receive more and have more offers. So as you note the student ends up only choosing the level at shich s/he is exploited. But realistically speaking you do not want to be on the bottom level of capitalism, in fact realistically you want to be as far away as possible.
Very true I should have elaborated on the sense of general apathy it creates in those attempting to receive an education a little more. In the end though, I believe the attempt at social and class mobility is futile. The question appears to me as being: "Why try when the future will be bleak no matter what effort." The game of life presents itself as meaningless when approached from this standpoint. I also did not mean to imply sexism by only using a "he" example, that was a large error on my part. Thank you for correcting my error.

[Johnny Kerosene]

The communist in me is proud of the teachers for standing up for themselves as workers. The Anarchist in me is proud of the kids for not giving a fuck about authority.:confused:

[Tim Finnegan]

The Anarchist in me is proud of the kids for not giving a fuck about authority.:confused:
See, this is basically what I'm not getting: why is acting against a given authority figure laudable in itself? These kids aren't engaged in any sort of principled anti-authoritarianism, they're just douchenozzles with no concern for anybody but themselves, and would, each and every one, cheerfully instate themselves as Emperor were they given half a chance. It seems like people are just fetishising dissent.

[Johnny Kerosene]

See, this is basically what I'm not getting: why is acting against a given authority figure laudable in itself? These kids aren't engaged in any sort of principled anti-authoritarianism, they're just douchenozzles with no concern for anybody but themselves, and would, each and every one, cheerfully instate themselves as Emperor were they given half a chance. It seems like people are just fetishising dissent.

I can't speak for anyone else, but me doing probably has something to do with me being a high schooler. However, as a high schooler, I also have more sympathy for the teachers because I see the shit that kids do to good teachers. I'd say I'm siding more with the teachers in this one.

[altnet]

See, this is basically what I'm not getting: why is acting against a given authority figure laudable in itself? These kids aren't engaged in any sort of principled anti-authoritarianism, they're just douchenozzles with no concern for anybody but themselves, and would, each and every one, cheerfully instate themselves as Emperor were they given half a chance. It seems like people are just fetishising dissent.

Precisely, I would liken these acts to a so called "anarchist" smashing a window and fleeing to avoid detection. Sure, this self deemed revolutionary showed that the institutions were vulnerable (as in the education system/teachers), although accomplished nothing in the end. A single act of such vandalism does little but to promote torment for the workers (other students) of the institution and prompts a crack down from the law enforcement (teachers/disciplinarians). It is not principled dissent in any way shape or form, it is an expression of disgust and disillusionment with the system. If anything such a smash and run is cowardice and a failure to change anything but the circumstances of oppression.
Thought I would present that comparison and others will no doubt disagree with my surmise. The teachers are not the enemy here, the oppressive system and the educational system as a whole are. The teachers try to do their job, they cannot prevent unruly fools from causing disruption. I also side with the teachers although I believe it very important to look at the cause of the disruption and not to take the reductionist approach of scaling it down to only a youthful inspired reaction.

[Apoi_Viitor]

See, this is basically what I'm not getting: why is acting against a given authority figure laudable in itself? These kids aren't engaged in any sort of principled anti-authoritarianism, they're just douchenozzles with no concern for anybody but themselves, and would, each and every one, cheerfully instate themselves as Emperor were they given half a chance. It seems like people are just fetishising dissent.

1. How do you know they are simply "douchenozzles with no concern for anybody but themselves"?
2. Even if they are, so what? When I was a kid, I acted like a complete asshole in school. I didn't do this because of "principled anti-authoritarianism", but because I hated the monotony and alienation of school. I wasted so much of my life sitting in a chair being lectured about things I couldn't care less about - or even remember when I left the building, that it's depressing to even think about.

You're putting moral and individual blame on the students for something that is structural. As you stated before, contemporary education is in need of reform - and certainly it's current flaws contributed to the students misbehavior, so the blame should be directed at the system rather than its effects.


Oh come the fuck off it, 99.00% of the time you only hear this type of shit from spoiled first world anarkiddies and the like. Ask an Afghani girl in the Saur revolution (well, she was probably killed so no dice there) if some compulsory state education is repressive or liberatory.

Yes, because this is definitely a simple black and white issue. It's repressive State education or no education at all, right? Is there a specific reason why John Dewey's or Maria Montessori's ideas can't be applied to education?

Secondly, although I support compulsory education, I wouldn't label someone like Ivan Illich a spoiled first world anarkiddie...

[black magick hustla]

"When" you were a kid? With that sort of desperately macho swagger, you'd hardly know the difference.
pyromania can be shared by the both sexes. are you a teacher? my dad was a teacher, i am sort of a teacher, etcetera. i dont get this fucking stupid industry patriotism

[black magick hustla]

Well, I am a part time teacher of sorts, admittedly not at school level, and I kind of feal bad for being a part of a group that has clearly failed you so badly. Clearly you learned very little. So on behalf of all of us who work, have worked, or shall work in the field of education; I'm sorry that you're an ignorant asshat. We have failed you. It is at least in part our fault.


oh, lay off the fucking horse. we all know you are some academic weiner and you loooooooooooove that industry or w/e but do you think there is absolutely no reason for children to resent school? You think society is doing them a favor and they should be thankful? What about the kid that needs to be fed fucking amphetamines because he would rather climb trees and watch the stars than sit still and listen to some barely effective teacher ramble about shit that has no relevance to his life? What about my friend that was unable to finish school because he was simply not good at it and now he has a hard time finding a job because the educational institutions function as filters for the bosses? You can read all the fucking Paul Freire and you can read all the Bourdeau and all that critical theory and stuff and be an enlightened teacher but you have to still grade, and you have to fail some people, and you still act as an arbitrer for the bosses of who deserves a "dignified" job or who deserves to rot in welfare.

We defend our "right" for the institutions because this is a fucked up world and the alternative is being unemployed or a drug addict. I don't think why you guys think it is the task of communists to raise a fucking finger in the moral defense of any aspect of this rotten world. Workers defend their "right" to work and not be laid off because the alternative is worse, even if places like Wal Mart and McDonalds are deplorable settings that demand to be destroyed and dismantled beyond the power of memory tor recall their existence. Goddamn you guys.

[ZeroNowhere]

People comparing this to the third world need to shh. You might as well say that all those pesky first world workers and communists that hate wage-labor and want to fight for a world free of work should humble themselves because a stable capitalist democracy with jobs would be loads better for people in Somalia.Tbh, those kinds of arguments are valid in the same way that similar conservative arguments for sweatshops are valid. They're not completely wrong factually speaking, they're just given in a perspective to which we are indifferent.


Secondly, although I support compulsory education, I wouldn't label someone like Ivan Illich a spoiled first world anarkiddie...Peter Pan, starring Ivan Illich.


principled anti-authoritarianismReally, that's probably the least important form of anti-authoritarianism.


These kids aren't engaged in any sort of principled anti-authoritarianism, they're just douchenozzles with no concern for anybody but themselves, and would, each and every one, cheerfully instate themselves as Emperor were they given half a chance.Whereas the working class is known to shun all wealth, and class struggle is carried out simply on principle.


Students will work and pay attention in school to what end?Towards being integrated into capital.


The teachers are not the enemy here, the oppressive system and the educational system as a whole are.Sure, and neither are managers the enemy, nor will management be abolished under socialism. They nonetheless take on the role of representatives of capital.

[Os Cangaceiros]

IIRC Radley Balko (some libertarian) made that argument at one point in a piece of his that I read. The argument was that the people who sew Nikes in the Third World or whatever have it pretty bad and all, but at least they have some money, provided to them from doing their shit-jobs. Without their shit-jobs they wouldn't have any money at all! Capitalism ain't so bad.

The whole debate around schooling actually reminds me a lot of the debate about prisons post-capitalism.

[ZeroNowhere]

IIRC Radley Balko (some libertarian) made that argument at one point in a piece of his that I read. The argument was that the people who sew Nikes in the Third World or whatever have it pretty bad and all, but at least they have some money, provided to them from doing their shit-jobs. Without their shit-jobs they wouldn't have any money at all! Capitalism ain't so bad.
No need to go to libertarians, you can find the same thing in writers like Paul Krugman.

[Tim Finnegan]

1. How do you know they are simply "douchenozzles with no concern for anybody but themselves"?
I've met them, or at least their sort.


2. Even if they are, so what? When I was a kid, I acted like a complete asshole in school. I didn't do this because of "principled anti-authoritarianism", but because I hated the monotony and alienation of school. I wasted so much of my life sitting in a chair being lectured about things I couldn't care less about - or even remember when I left the building, that it's depressing to even think about.You can be as bored and uncooperative as you like, but you shouldn't disrupt things for those that are actually tying to make something of the education they've been offered. That's simply anti-social behaviour, regardless of its particular motivations.


You're putting moral and individual blame on the students for something that is structural. As you stated before, contemporary education is in need of reform - and certainly it's current flaws contributed to the students misbehavior, so the blame should be directed at the system rather than its effects.Recognising structural influences does not mean failing to recognise individual choice. Or do we let the date rapist off the hook, if you'll allow me an admittedly hyperbolic analogy, because his actions are an expression of structural misogyny?


pyromania can be shared by the both sexes.
So can machismo.


are you a teacher? my dad was a teacher, i am sort of a teacher, etcetera. i dont get this fucking stupid industry patriotism...Ok, yeah, I'll admit I come from a teaching family (a dad, a sister, and a gran), so you may have pegged some subconscious motivation on my part. :laugh:

[Chambered Word]

The education system is just another arm of the state, aimed at keeping the pool of labour skills in gear with capitalism's daily needs and conditioning workers to accept discipline, and conditioning the upper classes to develop a sense of individualism and superiority. It's no wonder that kids and young adults both hate school. I'm not here to bemoan my lot as a student, but I fucking hate it as well, socializing is practically the only interesting part of school. Even the interesting subjects are adulterated to form a typical high school curriculum.

I support the students fighting back against repressive regulations. Teachers are workers and don't have an interest in encouraging students to accept them. It's not a very simple issue though because the education system itself is fucked, and I can understand why teachers would have a narrow interest in enforcing discipline because it makes their jobs less stressful.

Just the other day my sister and her other Trot friends had their political magazines confiscated from them by a hawkish right-wing teacher under the pretense that it was 'extra curricular material' or some bullshit like that, and other teachers were instructed to do the same if they saw them reading such material. We shouldn't have to put up with censorship of something as harmless as that, nor should we have to be harassed about what we wear to school (as happens to many people at my school and hers), chastized and given detention for being two minutes late or even just not coming to school etc simply because teachers are part of the proletariat.

[Tim Finnegan]

The education system is just another arm of the state, aimed at keeping the pool of labour skills in gear with capitalism's daily needs and conditioning workers to accept discipline, and conditioning the upper classes to develop a sense of individualism and superiority. It's no wonder that kids and young adults both hate school. I'm not here to bemoan my lot as a student, but I fucking hate it as well, socializing is practically the only interesting part of school. Even the interesting subjects are adulterated to form a typical high school curriculum.
This is basically my problem with the anti-education position: it's an attempt to rationalise a personal dissatisfaction with the education system through borrowed chunks of theory, rather than a solid analytic framework that produces scepticism of the current system. It's all "school was boring" and "the teachers were dicks"- the universalisation of subjective personal experiences- with a few clichés of radical phraseology- "indoctrination" and "arm of the state"- thrown in, and devoid of any weighty commentary on the actual structures that we're dealing with, either in itself or as part of the capitalist system.

Are their substantial criticisms to be made of the current education system? Certainly. Is one of the primary social roles of the education system the production of competent and obedient workers? Of course, that goes without saying. Is fetishising individualistic, non-progressive, and often outright anti-social pseudo-dissent going to go any way to addressing either of these points? I severely doubt it.

[Invader Zim]

oh, lay off the fucking horse. we all know you are some academic weiner and you loooooooooooove that industry or w/e

yawn


but do you think there is absolutely no reason for children to resent school?

That entirely depends of the school, teachers and pupils. School can be a living hell. But that doesn't imply that mandatory universal education is still anything other than a highly progressive development - it just means that it isn't perfect.



You think society is doing them a favor and they should be thankful?

Actually yes, and if you disagree you're a naive moron.


What about the kid that needs to be fed fucking amphetamines because he would rather climb trees and watch the stars than sit still and listen to some barely effective teacher ramble about shit that has no relevance to his life?

Or more accurately sit around at home playing xbox. But yes, what about them when they actually leave school and are utterly unemployable because they are skilless and illiterate ? Or do you really think that capitalism will be kind to these people because they found it hard to pay attention in school?


I don't think why you guys think it is the task of communists to raise a fucking finger in the moral defense of any aspect of this rotten world. Workers defend their "right" to work and not be laid off because the alternative is worse, even if places like Wal Mart and McDonalds are deplorable settings that demand to be destroyed and dismantled beyond the power of memory tor recall their existence.

Which is precisely why defending universal education is important - because the alternative is a far worse.

[Comrade J]

From my experiences, growing up in and going to school in a post-industrial Lancashire town, I think being a constant prick in class actually results in further "authoritarian" behaviour from the staff, and it's ludicrous that anyone here would celebrate their aggression and intimidating behaviour.

The classes I was in where everyone was sociable and willing to learn were far more relaxed, chatty and informal - not in any sense "authoritarian" - people could debate topics, argue against the teacher's or other students' views on various issues and so on, which for me is what education should be. We even had a history teacher who was a Trotskyist, which made lessons on the Soviet Union interesting. Don't get me wrong, it wasn't all rigid compliance and obedience, people still talked over each other, messed about a bit etc. but everyone also had an unspoken understanding of the purpose of being there, and everyone got something out of it.

However, in those classes where loads of kids were being pointlessly rude and aggressive, the atmosphere became much more formal as the teachers fought in their own way to "keep control" - people forced to sit in silence, copy notes from the board and so on, which is the worst possible thing to happen in a school.

So for all you people celebrating these kids' behaviour as some kind of political struggle against the repressive bourgeois state, you're a fucking idiot. Sure, I am completely aware that some of these kids have difficult childhoods, and of course it's crucial to question authority at all times, but don't for a second think they're doing it for the reasons you wish they were. Education in this country is less than perfect, but its at the best it can be in classrooms where teachers can encourage independent thought and things can be discussed - this in itself is a way that reduces the authority position of the teacher - rather than in classes where kids are disruptive for the sake of it and teachers - mere human beings - panic and often resort to being equally offensive and strict, which doesn't help anyone.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

This is another instance of capitalism at work, dehumanizing all involved. The "educational system" is so fucked up from every direction that it beats down and degrades all who have anything to do with it.

The main thing is to try to understand all of this and the basis for it. Not to get into a shit throwing contest or prove one's allegiance to "youth rebellion" or "necessary education."

When you see that schooling is set up to crank out the kind of people the system requires, it's easier to get all the rest. That's what education is about. At this point, capital doesn't need a lot of poor kids to be well versed in things like mathematics or well disciplined since it has no real use for them in the productive process anyway. Their future includes more prison cells and graves than high tech labor. So the students are left in the mire, with the teachers thrown in to act more like referees than anything else. Both are knee deep in shit.

Meanwhile, children from the exploiting and oppressing classes get better quality schools and a handful of others are plucked out for private schools and specialized education so they'll be prepared for their future positions.

It's all related.

In a future society, when capital is swept away, we can have real education, based in real life processes, to enable people to reach their full potential as human beings. For now, teachers and students can only deal with what capitalism gives them as best as possible.

Another acute example of why revolution is a burning necessity.

[nuisance]

Oh come the fuck off it, 99.00% of the time you only hear this type of shit from spoiled first world anarkiddies and the like. Ask an Afghani girl in the Saur revolution (well, she was probably killed so no dice there) if some compulsory state education is repressive or liberatory.



It's amazing, really, give a british anarcho something probably the majority of people in the world would jump at; free and mandatory schooling for all kids, and it becomes an insufferable boot on the neck.


For all the faults of the schooling system under capitalism, if you really think that state/compulsory schooling isn't extremely fucking progressive compared to the vast majority of really existing alternatives, you're so divorced from reality it's laughable.





Sorry to totally lose my cool, but this particular argument always baffles and enrages me.
This sort of argument baffles me.
Is it a first worlders fault that their main focus of liberation is themselves, meaning a more interesting/beneficial concern of theirs is the conditions they are in and are experiencing, not someone in a far off lands? Why even equate them, since one is not claiming that the others state apparatus is generally more brutish than the others.
This amounts to 'shut up, people have it worse that you'. Brilliant

[Tim Finnegan]

This amounts to 'shut up, people have it worse that you'. Brilliant
Which, when Paris Hilton is complaining that her jewel-encrusted underpants have the wrong kind of jewels on them, is a valid position. It's all about context.

[nuisance]

Which, when Paris Hilton is complaining that her jewel-encrusted underpants have the wrong kind of jewels on them, is a valid position. It's all about context.
a product of class/socialpositioning, yes.