Market socialism: When does the "state capitalist" label go too far?

[Die Neue Zeit]

I did not expect the Orthodox Marxism discussion in Learning (http://www.revleft.com/vb/orthodox-marxism-t152058/index.html) to be about the essence of "capitalism" let alone generalized commodity production in general. It was supposed to be about the state, institutional politics, etc.

I have referred to past discussions that have asserted that "state capitalism" can go too far as a label. One particular case can actually be genuine market socialism (Lange, not Deng). There are various different models of "state capitalism" proper, various other models of "socialism," and at least two models of the post-monetary lower phase of the communist mode of production (and at least two more for the higher phase).

Discuss.

[Kibbutznik]

What exactly is the point of debate here?

[Die Neue Zeit]

The usual strawman is the "state capitalist" debate re. the Soviet Union. :)

[Jose Gracchus]

I too do not even see the central point of contention being disputed here. It sounds like just different groups with agendas talking past each other over semantics.