Police Brutality

[Ele'ill]

56 minute video

http://www.myspace.com/video/boilingfrogs/the-largest-street-gang-in-america/54162036

[Viet Minh]

56 minute video

http://www.myspace.com/video/boilingfrogs/the-largest-street-gang-in-america/54162036

You don't have to look any further than the show cops for police brutality, narrated by some guy saying 'the brave policeman puts his life on the line and confronts the old man armed with a walking stick and drags him to the ground immobilisng him' type shit.

[Revolution starts with U]

Cops doesn't have a narrorator....
But I know what you mean :lol:

[Bud Struggle]

The best way to win a Revolution is to win the cops over. Not to fight them.

[Broletariat]

The best way to win a Revolution is to win the cops over. Not to fight them.

Typically when cops are involved in "revolution" it's called Fascism.

[Bud Struggle]

Typically when cops are involved in "revolution" it's called Fascism.

Nothing wrong with Revolution. Nothing wrong with Street Drama. It's just bad to confuse the two.

[Ele'ill]

The best way to win a Revolution is to win the cops over. Not to fight them.


Clearly they're a neutral force :rolleyes:

[HEAD ICE]

jbCqwl2geQg

[Bud Struggle]

Clearly they're a neutral force :rolleyes:
No they aren't. But there are ways to win in this world and there are ways to loose and then feel sorry for yourself.

I would suggest the former as a plan for Revolution. ;)

[Ele'ill]

But there are ways to win in this world and there are ways to loose and then feel sorry for yourself.

I would suggest the former as a plan for Revolution. ;)

And we are.

[PhoenixAsh]

The cops will never change sides. Maybe individual groups will...and maybe they will refuse to fight in some areas...but they will never take our side as a whole.

Its simply not in their interest and its not what they are hired for.

If you have a group of people who will blindly follow orders to bash in a peacefull protest of 16-20 year olds simply because they are ordered (happened in 1993 in Holland for example...and there are many, many more examples) you can not expect them to be suddenly all lovely towards the very same movements they have been repressing for decades.

[a rebel]

No revolutionary likes cops enough to want to fight with them

[Viet Minh]

The police in theory should already protect the people, although in most places they work for the Government against the people. For instance that poor protester who was killed by the policeman who shoved him, I won't go so far as to say it was murder but it was manslaughter without a doubt and he has not admitted any responsibility, in fact he suggested over and over it was the guy fault for standing there. But more and more we are seeing the police become as accountable as civilians, really they should be more accountable as they are in a position of power and trust.

[Ele'ill]

No revolutionary likes cops enough to want to fight with them

I don't understand.


The police in theory should already protect the people,

I don't believe the people need a supervising force which is ultimately separate from them.




But more and more we are seeing the police become as accountable as civilians,

No, actually we're seeing the police maintain a near zero accountability level for their actions, including murder.



really they should be more accountable as they are in a position of power and trust.

'Police' should not even exist.

[Ele'ill]

The best way to win a Revolution is to win the cops over. Not to fight them.

"the best way to win a revolution is to win everybody over onto the side of the revolution.." :rolleyes:

"the best way to deal with a bully who is beating you up and harassing you is to win them over onto your side" :rolleyes:

"the best way to win a work place dispute is to win over your bosses and the entire corporate ladder.." :rolleyes:

[PhoenixAsh]

police presence more often than not escaltes violence these days. and the rare times when their intervention is actually called for they rarely intervene...instead waiting at the side lines untill the fights are over to arrest the ones who are either downed or to stupid or wounded to have run away. O...and beat and arrest a few innocent bystanders...offcourse.

Two weeks ago there was a fight here...adn the plice arrived. Waited in their cars untill most of the fighting had died down and most of the culprits had gone again... and then proceeded to be brave policemen and women....

A month or two three ago there were some squatters evicted at night (they had been there the whole day but the actual removal was carried out at night)....suddenly several Military Police vans under my window...with 40 or so riot squad with dogs. To evict the squaters...naturally that was the time shit did get serious and things did break...

[Viet Minh]

I don't understand.

I think he meant nobody likes them enough to fight alongside them


I don't believe the people need a supervising force which is ultimately separate from them.

I agree but whats the alternative?


No, actually we're seeing the police maintain a near zero accountability level for their actions, including murder.

I was talking about the USA, where a few decades ago police could beat up a black guy in public without repercussion. Although its far from perfect now don't you think things have improved?


'Police' should not even exist.

In a perfect World no, of course not, but at the moment whats the alternative?

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Man I'm only 6 minutes into this video and I'm seriously pissed off.

[Viet Minh]

Man I'm only 6 minutes into this video and I'm seriously pissed off.

I haven't watched any of it for that exact reason.. :(

[Che a chara]

'kin hell. Just watched it there. Disgusting. This is a worldwide epidemic. A universal street gang that is above the law ..... a "self acting armed organisation".

Is there any wonder why there is such hostility and opposition directed against these thugs. Pigs everywhere are totally unapproachable and unaccountable for their actions.

Ironic though that the "beacon of freedom and liberty", the USA, has the most aggressive and notorious street militia and also has the highest caged population on the planet.

[Tim Finnegan]

You don't have to look any further than the show cops for police brutality, narrated by some guy saying 'the brave policeman puts his life on the line and confronts the old man armed with a walking stick and drags him to the ground immobilisng him' type shit.
That's not even exaggeration- remember a few months ago, when the coppers dragged Jody McIntyre (a sufferer of cerebral palsy and disability rights activist) out of his wheelchair, and the media rushed to declare that he had been "rolling towards them" in a "threatening" manner? One journalist (http://www.rantsnraves.org/images/smilies/fromgunner/emot-airquote.gif) who interviewed him demanded to know if he had been throwing objects, obliging him- with more restraint that I would have managed- to observe that his condition did not permit him the level of strength or control over his arms to lob things around. The journalist, as you may expect, had no real response to that.

A friend commented to me, "the middle class are just coming to realise what blacks, gays and the Irish have known for years". Don't think that's far off the mark.

[Viet Minh]

That's not even exaggeration- remember a few months ago, when the coppers dragged Jody McIntyre (a sufferer of cerebral palsy) and disability rights activist) out of his wheelchair, and the media rushed to declare that he had been "rolling towards them" in a "threatening" manner? One journalist (http://www.rantsnraves.org/images/smilies/fromgunner/emot-airquote.gif) who interviewed him demanded to know if he had been throwing objects, obliging him- with more restraint that I would have managed- to observe that his condition did not permit him the level of strength or control over his arms to lob things around. The journalist, as you may expect, had no real response to that.

A friend commented to me, "the middle class are just coming to realise what blacks, gays and the Irish have known for years". Don't think that's far off the mark.

It was years ago there was one of those police chase docu-dramas or whatever on tv it was some old black guy walking along the street doing fuck all the narrator said some bull about they suspect he has drugs and beat him to the ground after shouting an incoherant 'warning' (sort of like 'he's coming right for us') thats the last time I watched that show.

[Ele'ill]

I agree but whats the alternative?

'Civil defense forces' or a defense force that is at the direct control of the communities it protects- with the only interest being to keep communities safe- which is not the case at all with current police. Others might argue that no crisis response 'body' is needed and that the communities themselves act as one.




I was talking about the USA, where a few decades ago police could beat up a black guy in public without repercussion. Although its far from perfect now don't you think things have improved?

I don't believe the police have improved and as we've seen- given the opportunity they will absolutely continue to maintain that previously seen level of corruption, racism and physical violence.




In a perfect World no, of course not, but at the moment whats the alternative?

Public autonomous assemblies downtown to make noise on recent cases of murders, violence and general harassment by police. It's about breaking the spell that a lot of people are under thinking that because they've had no bad experiences with police (or no experience at all) that the police are ok and the 'bad guys' are just complaining about being caught. When there are webpages put together demonstrating the truth and those URLs are on flyers handed out during street marches it makes a big difference. As seen in the video in the OP- a lot of these cases involve police flat out lying as in 'there was a gun in his hand which he pointed at police' compared to 'there was no gun at all he wasn't speeding he used his turn signal and had no previous criminal record'.

[RGacky3]

What really kept the poor black neighborhoods safe was in the 1960s, groups like the black panthers.

[Tim Finnegan]

What really kept the poor black neighborhoods safe was in the 1960s, groups like the black panthers.
I think that, if things continue as do, we might see a return of that sort of thing. "Two, three, many Free Derrys", you might say.

[Viet Minh]

'Civil defense forces' or a defense force that is at the direct control of the communities it protects- with the only interest being to keep communities safe- which is not the case at all with current police. Others might argue that no crisis response 'body' is needed and that the communities themselves act as one.

The problem there is, apart form the tyranny of the majority, if the community is fairly small then the residents will be biased in certain cases. I think the solution is to make the police accountable to the public, just as the public are accountable to the law. In the USA I think they vote for the commisioner, which is a step in the right direction, albeit not very far..
If the communities act as one unfortunately its often either as a lynch mob or gangs/ organised crime.
Don't get me wrong I hate the police as much as the next person, and I've been unfairly dealt with on many occasions. But I grew up in fairly lawless areas, where there is already 'community justice', and imo they are even more brutal and less fair than the police.

[Bud Struggle]

What really kept the poor black neighborhoods safe was in the 1960s, groups like the black panthers.

Sorry Brother, Black neighborhoods weren't safe in the 1960s. But what really killed Black was crack in the '70s.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Police need a great reduction in power. They should also be required to take ethics exams annually, and be subject to being recorded at all times, without their knowledge, at any interval (only whilst on duty).

[#FF0000]

My favorite part of this video is how there's a whole compilation of cops from all over the US responding in the same thuggish way to folks asking to file a complaint.

JUST A FEW BAD APPLES THOUGH

[Ele'ill]

Their standard operating procedure is thuggery.

[Revolution starts with U]

There's an asshole cop in my town who pulls over everybody constantly for no reason. He's personally pulled me over 4x and not given me a ticket or a warning once (not because he's cool, but because he pulled me over for no reason).
So today someone came around with a petition to get rid of him. He said he had only started about an hour ago and already had over 200 signatures :D

It's not brutality, but it is putting a cop in check, so... yay!

[RGacky3]

Sorry Brother, Black neighborhoods weren't safe in the 1960s. But what really killed Black was crack in the '70s.

Do you want me to find statistics Bud?

Crack was not a bubble, people with hopes and opportunities don't start smoking crack just because, the Black Panthers were making a real difference in those communities, which is unnacceptable, so the US had to murder them.

But I'll get you statistics if you want.


I think that, if things continue as do, we might see a return of that sort of thing. "Two, three, many Free Derrys", you might say.

Although I don't agree with their ideology, I have to say the Black Panthers really did wonderful things in the black community.

[Bud Struggle]

Black crime exploded in the 1960s, a decade in which black incomes rose rapidly and black poverty rates dropped rapidly. If "a civil rights law is a law ...

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&q=black+crimein+the++1960s&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=524f32e4dee1b3fc

Since 1964, the U.S. crime rate has increased by as much as 350%, and over 11 million crimes were reported in the year 2007 alone.[9] (http://www.revleft.com/vb/#cite_note-8) Crime in the United States has fluctuated considerably over the course of the last half-century, rising significantly in the late 1960s and 1970s, peaking in the early 1990s and then decreasing steadily from then on.
Over the past thirty years, the crime rate rose throughout the 1980s, reached its peak in 1993 and then began to decrease throughout the 1990s and 2000s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

And this interesting PDF article.

http://wcr.sonoma.edu/v5n1/manuscripts/Loo.pdf



Crack was not a bubble, people with hopes and opportunities don't start smoking crack just because, the Black Panthers were making a real difference in those communities, which is unnacceptable, so the US had to murder them And I suppose the reason Rich Yuppies were into coke was the poverty and hopeless of their lives, too. :D

You live in a fantasy world.

[Che a chara]

But what really killed Black was crack in the '70s.

Yeah like what killed Native American emancipation was gambling, alcohol dependency, depression and mental illness. You see a link....?

[Viet Minh]

Black crime exploded in the 1960s, a decade in which black incomes rose rapidly and black poverty rates dropped rapidly. If "a civil rights law is a law ...

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&q=black+crimein+the++1960s&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=524f32e4dee1b3fc

Since 1964, the U.S. crime rate has increased by as much as 350%, and over 11 million crimes were reported in the year 2007 alone.[9] (http://www.revleft.com/vb/#cite_note-8) Crime in the United States has fluctuated considerably over the course of the last half-century, rising significantly in the late 1960s and 1970s, peaking in the early 1990s and then decreasing steadily from then on.
Over the past thirty years, the crime rate rose throughout the 1980s, reached its peak in 1993 and then began to decrease throughout the 1990s and 2000s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

And this interesting PDF article.

http://wcr.sonoma.edu/v5n1/manuscripts/Loo.pdf


So they could suddenly afford drugs and alcohol, and the crime rate increased, no surprise there. It doesn't mean poverty is beneficial to a community.



And I suppose the reason Rich Yuppies were into coke was the poverty and hopeless of their lives, too. :D

You live in a fantasy world.


These are the opposite ends of the scale, on one side you have bored bourgeoise experimenting with a bourgeoise drug of status, on the other you have grinding poverty and unbearable conditions driving people to extreme escapism.

[RGacky3]

Since 1964, the U.S. crime rate has increased by as much as 350%, and over 11 million crimes were reported in the year 2007 alone.[9] (http://www.revleft.com/vb/#cite_note-8) Crime in the United States has fluctuated considerably over the course of the last half-century, rising significantly in the late 1960s and 1970s, peaking in the early 1990s and then decreasing steadily from then on.


If we're discussing the effectiveness of the black panterhs we have to talk about places where the black panthers were involved. Its hard to actually figure that out statistically, because during the 1960s there was also a huge have of vietnam vets comming back and groups like the Hells Angels being formed.

The Panthers had anti-drug programs, soup kitchens, community projects, youth projects, and so on.


And I suppose the reason Rich Yuppies were into coke was the poverty and hopeless of their lives, too. :D

You live in a fantasy world.

Did cocaine destroy the rich Yuppie community? How many yuppies got 20+ years in prison for cocaine?

Your living in the fantasy world Bud.

[synthesis]

Crack exploded because the FBI and CIA stopped the DEA and local police departments from hampering the operations of cocaine smugglers who were linked to anti-communist activities in Mexico and Central and South America. This is undisputed by anybody.

Sorry, carry on.

[AfricanAztecSamurai]

after dismanteling the black panthers the cia put crack in the black community.all you got do is research maxine waters and michal rupport for more info.

[Bud Struggle]

Crack exploded because the FBI and CIA stopped the DEA and local police departments from hampering the operations of cocaine smugglers who were linked to anti-communist activities in Mexico and Central and South America. This is undisputed by anybody.

Sorry, carry on.

Nobody forced anyone to take any drugs. People take and take them of their own accord.

[Che a chara]

Nobody forced anyone to take any drugs. People take and take them of their own accord.

Also known as geopolitical deregulation ;)

[Bud Struggle]

Also known as geopolitical deregulation ;)

Well if people don't want to be treated as children and be allowed to make theit pown choices--then maybe that sort of deregulation is best.

You can't really have it both ways--you can't be free and adult and still have the difficult decisions make for you in life.

[synthesis]

Nobody forced anyone to take any drugs. People take and take them of their own accord.

What do you think I was getting at with my post?

[Bud Struggle]

What do you think I was getting at with my post?

You were saying that the government made the drugs "available". I was saying no matter how available drugs are, people still make their own choice to screw their lives up and take them.

Did I miss something?

[#FF0000]

You were saying that the government made the drugs "available". I was saying no matter how available drugs are, people still make their own choice to screw their lives up and take them.

Did I miss something?

So there's nothing unethical about what the CIA did, then?

Does this apply to a hypothetical heroin pusher who would hypothetically sell hypothetical heroin to your kids?

[Bud Struggle]

So there's nothing unethical about what the CIA did, then?

Does this apply to a hypothetical heroin pusher who would hypothetically sell hypothetical heroin to your kids?

I didn't say that. First of all I don't know if the CIA actually did what Synthesis said they did. I'm not denying it--I just don't know. And secondly and most importantly drugs like al lot of other things are a matter of personal choice. So while I wouldn't like drug pushers to be around my kids in any way--I'm not particularly worried that they will turn into addicts. There a lot of temptation in life and the job of a parent is to teach their children the best ways of overcoming and avoiding unhealthy situations.

Oddly enough my daughter is planning on becoming a drug pusher herself--an anesthesiologist. :)

[Ele'ill]

I didn't say that. First of all I don't know if the CIA actually did what Synthesis said they did. I'm not denying it--I just don't know.

Well now you know- or you can read up on it- if neither then it's your choice to stay in the darkness on the topic.



And secondly and most importantly drugs like al lot of other things are a matter of personal choice. So while I wouldn't like drug pushers to be around my kids in any way--I'm not particularly worried that they will turn into addicts. There a lot of temptation in life and the job of a parent is to teach their children the best ways of overcoming and avoiding unhealthy situations.

So let's blame their parents- how did their parents get there to the place where they're at? Their parents? Their parents? What is the actual root of the problem? In advance, this is totally answerable.

[Bud Struggle]

Well now you know- or you can read up on it- if neither then it's your choice to stay in the darkness on the topic. Fine, I have no issues there.


So let's blame their parents- how did their parents get there to the place where they're at? Their parents? Their parents? What is the actual root of the problem? In advance, this is totally answerable.
I'm not blaiming parents. I made a point about parents because FF made a point about MY KIDS--so I spoke from a parents perspective. That's all. But the bottom line is people have to take responsibility for their own lives. If you Communists think you can rule the world--take things over and have your dictatorship of the proletariat--you better get control over your own lives first. And maybe this is one of the main reasons the Proletariat has been so unsuccessful in making any headway against the Bourgeoisie. They are too easily fooled and led astray by bread and circuses and false patriotism and Fox News--too lazy to change the channel.

You reap what you sew.

[Ele'ill]

But the bottom line is people have to take responsibility for their own lives.

Poverty.


If you Communists think you can rule the world--take things over and have your dictatorship of the proletariat--you better get control over your own lives first.

We won't have it


And maybe this is one of the main reasons the Proletariat has been so unsuccessful in making any headway against the Bourgeoisie. They are too easily fooled and led astray by bread and circuses and false patriotism and Fox News--too lazy to change the channel.

You reap what you sew.

anymore.

[Bud Struggle]

Poverty.
Talk

We won't have it is


anymore.cheep.

I really don't believe you. I see nothing much from the Proletariat. A Bourgeois revolution here and there. Some wild and happening hippie protest here and there. And then they votes--and it's the same old same old.

[PhoenixAsh]

Fine, I have no issues there.


I'm not blaiming parents. I made a point about parents because FF made a point about MY KIDS--so I spoke from a parents perspective. That's all. But the bottom line is people have to take responsibility for their own lives. If you Communists think you can rule the world--take things over and have your dictatorship of the proletariat--you better get control over your own lives first. And maybe this is one of the main reasons the Proletariat has been so unsuccessful in making any headway against the Bourgeoisie. They are too easily fooled and led astray by bread and circuses and false patriotism and Fox News--too lazy to change the channel.

You reap what you sew.


Well...why do you think there are so much liqour stores in poorer neighberhoods? If you move up the economic ladder there is a serious reduction in liquor stores.

Traditionally alcohol was pushed on the workers in the Industrial Revolution in Europe to keep them sedated and docile. It has been a strategy by the ruling class throughout the ages to at least rovide the rank and file with alcohol. It offers a quick escape from the hardship.

It is also incidentally the case that abuse is punished harsher when poorer people are involved than when rich people are involved. Just possessing the same amount of herione will get you a lesser sentence when your daddy had money.

[Ele'ill]

Talk
is

cheep.

But discussion..


Mentioning 'talk is cheap' in light of your OI routine :rolleyes:

[Bud Struggle]

Well...why do you think there are so much liqour stores in poorer neighberhoods? If you move up the economic ladder there is a serious reduction in liquor stores.

Traditionally alcohol was pushed on the workers in the Industrial Revolution in Europe to keep them sedated and docile. It has been a strategy by the ruling class throughout the ages to at least rovide the rank and file with alcohol. It offers a quick escape from the hardship.

It is also incidentally the case that abuse is punished harsher when poorer people are involved than when rich people are involved. Just possessing the same amount of herione will get you a lesser sentence when your daddy had money.

Plenty of middle class and rich people drink. As if money was the only hardship in life. Communists are so one dimentional. And no, there was a big push to get workers to switch from (minde numbing) gin to the less intoxicating beer in the 17 and 18th centuries.

And who cares what stratagy people have to control other people? People have to make their own decisions in life. If they can't then they deserve their fate. Nothing is given to anyone. EVEYTHING is earned.

[Bud Struggle]

But discussion..


Mentioning 'talk is cheap' in light of your OI routine :rolleyes:

And yours. :)

[synthesis]

You were saying that the government made the drugs "available". I was saying no matter how available drugs are, people still make their own choice to screw their lives up and take them.

Did I miss something?

Yes. The drugs were always available; crack had always been a way of making a dollar out of sixteen cents in the ghetto. What the CIA did, consistently, was to allow their affiliates to monopolize the market by selling drugs at 10% or less of the going rate without interference from the DEA and FBI. In doing so, they created a race to the bottom for drug prices, which in turn made drugs cheap and readily available.

Imagine if a handle of cheap whiskey was fifty cents as opposed to five dollars but also illegal and unregulated, so that Prohibition-era gangsters still controlled the trade. This goes beyond "personal responsibility," and any attempt to dismiss it as such is intellectually dishonest at best.

[Bud Struggle]

Yes. The drugs were always available; crack had always been a way of making a dollar out of sixteen cents in the ghetto. What the CIA did, consistently, was to allow their affiliates to monopolize the market by selling drugs at 10% or less of the going rate without interference from the DEA and FBI. In doing so, they created a race to the bottom for drug prices, which in turn made drugs cheap and readily available.

Imagine if a handle of cheap whiskey was fifty cents as opposed to five dollars but also illegal and unregulated, so that Prohibition-era gangsters still controlled the trade. This goes beyond "personal responsibility," and any attempt to dismiss it as such is intellectually dishonest at best.

I agree it sucks. It does. But people make their own decisions in life. You can't get away from the fact--everyone makes their own choices in life. If you want to have free liquor and free drugs--you don't have to look farther than the Bourgeoioise.

[Tim Finnegan]

But people make their own decisions in life.
Then black people must really have loved being murdered, oppressed and enslaved, because they got their fair share of it, sure enough.

[synthesis]

I agree it sucks. It does. But people make their own decisions in life. You can't get away from the fact--everyone makes their own choices in life. If you want to have free liquor and free drugs--you don't have to look farther than the Bourgeoioise.

Again, you're missing the point. Crack was used by the CIA to fund anti-communist atrocities in Latin America; they were able to continue their operations because the black population was considered politically negligible.

[#FF0000]

And who cares what stratagy people have to control other people? People have to make their own decisions in life. If they can't then they deserve their fate. Nothing is given to anyone. EVEYTHING is earned. Ohhh that's not true and you know it, silly.

Rich kids didn't earn the right to do their cocaine in their gated communities, far from the police and their cruising laws.

And, come on. You live in a country where millions lost their homes and jobs while the richest were literally handed free money for fucking up. Hard work might get you a little more, but it's situational.

[Bud Struggle]

Then black people must really have loved being murdered, oppressed and enslaved, because they got their fair share of it, sure enough.

No they don't. But there is little Black on white crime or white on black crime compared to Black on Black crime. There have been poor people since the beginning of time--ultimately it all comes down to personal responsibility. Both crime and the Revolution.

[Bud Struggle]

Ohhh that's not true and you know it, silly.

Rich kids didn't earn the right to do their cocaine in their gated communities, far from the police and their cruising laws.

And, come on. You live in a country where millions lost their homes and jobs while the richest were literally handed free money for fucking up. Hard work might get you a little more, but it's situational.

Yea, what you say is true--but I'm talking about YOU. If you want your Revolution you better earn it. Nobody's going to give it to you.

You are no Trust Fund baby. But then again neither am I.

[Revolution starts with U]

Same old shit ad nauseum from Bud Struggle. Poor people are poor because they want to be, the slaves were slaves because they wanted to be. Fat people are fat because they want to be. I'm awesome because I wanted to be.
It's the same old shit, over and over and over and over and over. It's getting really fucking tiring.
Say the same lie often enough and you start to believe it. :cursing:

How many thread can you hijack with the same old tired, UNSUBSTANTIATED line?

[Bud Struggle]

Again, you're missing the point. Crack was used by the CIA to fund anti-communist atrocities in Latin America; they were able to continue their operations because the black population was considered politically negligible.

I understand. But they STILL BOUGHT THE DRUGS! The CIA figured they were assholes and they played right into their hands.

How are you going to fight a Revolution is you can't fight being high 24/7? The CIA owned the Brother's butts.

Stay straight, stay sober, win the Revolution. But I guess--people had other plans.

[Bud Struggle]

Same old shit ad nauseum from Bud Struggle. Poor people are poor because they want to be, the slaves were slaves because they wanted to be. Fat people are fat because they want to be. I'm awesome because I wanted to be.
It's the same old shit, over and over and over and over and over. It's getting really fucking tiring.
Say the same lie often enough and you start to believe it. :cursing:

How many thread can you hijack with the same old tired, UNSUBSTANTIATED line?

You are preaching. :) Rev Brother Rev. :D

[Ele'ill]

I understand. But they STILL BOUGHT THE DRUGS! The CIA figured they were assholes and they played right into their hands.

How are you going to fight a Revolution is you can't fight being high 24/7? The CIA owned the Brother's butts.

Stay straight, stay sober, win the Revolution. But I guess--people had other plans.

This is a troll post and should be at the very least- removed from this thread.

[Bud Struggle]

This is a troll post and should be at the very least- removed from this thread.

Obviously you have no answer to it. It comes down to individual responsibility--nothing more. If you want a Revolution every worker, every poor person, every person to whom an injustice was done has to stand up and make a decision to change things.

Not to take a drug or drink some whiskey or watch TV or vote Democratic in the next election, but to change things.

Sorry if you don't like that answer. But that's the Revolution.

[#FF0000]

You're kinda ranting.

[Bud Struggle]

You're kinda ranting.

Yea. But I'm not being a troll. I make a good point about personal responsibility. Till you achieve that--you never could have solidarity and Revolution.

[Ele'ill]

Obviously you have no answer to it. It comes down to individual responsibility--nothing more.

And a whole lot of outside influences but let's not even think of those at all- ever :rolleyes:




If you want a Revolution every worker, every poor person, every person to whom an injustice was done has to stand up and make a decision to change things.

A lot of people are standing up- a lot of people are becoming aware. We're beating the odds- we're bloodied and all that but what's a fight without it? We're gonna win.



Sorry if you don't like that answer. But that's the Revolution.

And thus begins the same exact conversation done five hundred times before where Bud Struggle backs into a corner, throws some inane sentences together and then stops posting on the subject and in the thread for a week or two then it's back to it again.

[Revolution starts with U]

You are being a troll. You have no point here other than to bring up the same old unsubstantiated line, time and again. We shoot it down, you bring it back up. We shoot it down again, you bring it back up.
It's kinda hard to take responsibility when you're life is absolutely shit, and the difference between life and death is begging some capitalist for a fucking job. Ya, it would help if responsibility were higher. But that's not the root of the problem. Slaves were not slaves because of a lack of responsibility. Serfs not serfs for it. Proles not proles because of it. It's utter unsubstantiated rhetoric. You're a sophist. And sophist are the original trolls. (Thanks for the new word Comrademan)
But you don't care.

[Bud Struggle]

You are being a troll. You have no point here other than to bring up the same old unsubstantiated line, time and again. We shoot it down, you bring it back up. We shoot it down again, you bring it back up.
It's kinda hard to take responsibility when you're life is absolutely shit, and the difference between life and death is begging some capitalist for a fucking job. Ya, it would help if responsibility were higher. But that's not the root of the problem. Slaves were not slaves because of a lack of responsibility. Serfs not serfs for it. Proles not proles because of it. It's utter unsubstantiated rhetoric. You're a sophist. And sophist are the original trolls. (Thanks for the new word Comrademan)
But you don't care.

OK maybe. You win on the Forum. I win in real life. The rich are still rich and the poor are still poor. Call me names if you want--say things are changing. Say there's a Revolution comming. Say people are revoltiing.

Say it.

Fine.

But tomorrow will be another working day for you and for me. And you will go about your business and I will go about mine.

[Summerspeaker]

There have been poor people since the beginning of time--ultimately it all comes down to personal responsibility.

There's no evidence the poor as a separate class of people existed in the hunter-gather societies that account for the majority of the time we has a species have spent on the planet. Poverty isn't some timeless absolute but a product of specific historical circumstances and forms of human organization.

[Tim Finnegan]

No they don't. But there is little Black on white crime or white on black crime compared to Black on Black crime. There have been poor people since the beginning of time--ultimately it all comes down to personal responsibility. Both crime and the Revolution.
Thank you for entirely ignoring what I said.

[Bud Struggle]

There's no evidence the poor as a separate class of people existed in the hunter-gather societies that account for the majority of the time we has a species have spent on the planet. Poverty isn't some timeless absolute but a product of specific historical circumstances and forms of human organization.

I agree. But that's what it looks like now and there isn't ANYTHING that is on the horizon that will change these turn of events.

But speciticly as far as poverty goes--ther were no "maqrginal" people in hunter-gatherer societies. Those that couldn't make it,

Died.

[Ele'ill]

Police Brutality- typical bullshit murdering thuggery by Portland Police- a decision against the police- and nothing will change.

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2011/04/407774.shtml

[Summerspeaker]

But speciticly as far as poverty goes--ther were no "maqrginal" people in hunter-gatherer societies. Those that couldn't make it,

Died.

To an extent, yes. However, the evidence suggests hunter-gatherers typically practice food sharing and other forms of communal support. It wasn't some brutal competition akin to the capitalist marketplace or anything like the Hobbesian war of all against all.

[Bud Struggle]

Thank you for entirely ignoring what I said.

Spare me the subtle nuanced wink wink, nod nod and make a substantial point in non ambiguous terms and you may fare better in the future.

What was your point again?

[Ele'ill]

What was your point again?

*Oh no- I don't know what to say and I'm in a corner*

[Bud Struggle]

Police Brutality- typical bullshit murdering thuggery by Portland Police- a decision against the police- and nothing will change.

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2011/04/407774.shtml

They are Proletarians...you are Proletarian. And there are a million shades of gray in between.

[Ele'ill]

They are Proletarians...you are Proletarian. And there are a million shades of gray in between.

Incorrect- they are class traitors. They protect capital and they protect ruling class interests.

[Tim Finnegan]

Spare me the subtle nuanced wink wink, nod nod and make a substantial point in non ambiguous terms and you may fare better in the future.

What was your point again?
That all this stuff about everyone being a tiny god who can rise above circumstantial constraints with merely a thought only really works if you're straight, white, cis, male, upper-middle or upper class, free of mental or physical disability, a member of the dominant religious sect or bloc and a native speaker of the dominant language. So, granted, those few thousand or so guys may have things their way, but the rest of us are not so very free from the bonds of circumstance.

(And I will note that I include myself in all but one-and-two-halves of those categories; I, unlike some, am quite aware of my privilege.)

[Bud Struggle]

*Oh no- I don't know what to say and I'm in a corner*

I'm in the corner? It's pretty obvious that the Proletariat doesn't exist other than as a theory.

Not on the streets of Portland at least.

[Ele'ill]

I'm in the corner?

Well, you're like half out of the ring, floundering amidst the ropes.



It's pretty obvious that the Proletariat doesn't exist other than as a theory.

Not on the streets of Portland at least.

Incoherent.

[Tim Finnegan]

It's pretty obvious that the Proletariat doesn't exist other than as a theory.
You're suggesting that all adults own their own means of production? :confused:

[Bud Struggle]

That all this stuff about everyone being a tiny god who can rise above circumstantial constraints with merely a thought only really works if you're straight, white, cis, male, upper-middle or upper class, free of mental or physical disability, and a native speaker of the dominant language. So, granted, those few thousand or so guys may have things their way, but the rest of us are not so very free from the bonds of circumstance.


Thanks. That's better. Yea we have circumstances. Yea we have problems--but there is no "us". There is nothing other than me unless I decide to make it so. If I don't like our circumstances I can change them individually, change them collectively or leave them be. It's worthless to blame someone, or be angry. There only is what is.

You can either make a million dollars, start a Revolution or accept things the way they are. There is nothing else. No good guys, no bad guys--just what is.

Idealism gets you no where.

[Bud Struggle]

You're suggesting that all adults own their own means of production? :confused:

I'm suggesting if you want to believe in Class Struggle and Class Consciousness and you find some personal meaning in your life for it--well that's fine. But there are no universal beliefs on the subject. Actually far from it.

It's no difference from a Catholic seeing the entire universe under the guardianship of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

It's one of many views of reality.

[Tim Finnegan]

Thanks. That's better. Yea we have circumstances. Yea we have problems--but there is no "us". There is nothing other than me unless I decide to make it so. If I don't like our circumstances I can change them individually, change them collectively or leave them be. It's worthless to blame someone, or be angry. There only is what is.

You can either make a million dollars, start a Revolution or accept things the way they are. There is nothing else. No good guys, no bad guys--just what is.

Idealism gets you no where.
"There is no such as society", in short?


I'm suggesting if you want to believe in Class Struggle and Class Consciousness and you find some personal meaning in your life for it--well that's fine. But there are no universal beliefs on the subject. Actually far from it.

It's no difference from a Catholic seeing the entire universe under the guardianship of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

It's one of many views of reality.
The person who believes that the Earth orbits the Sun is objectively right, while the person who believes that the Sun orbits the Earth is objectively wrong; to wave away the conflict between the two positions as merely being different "views of reality" is to reduce ourselves to the silliest kind of solipsism.

[Bud Struggle]

The person who believes that the Earth orbits the Sun is objectively right, while the person who believes that the Sun orbits the Earth is objectively wrong; to wave away the conflict between the two positions as merely being different "views of reality" is to reduce ourselves to the silliest kind of solipsism.

Exactly where you miss the point. You are assuming there is some sort of center. Saying that the earth is the center of the universe is just as correct as any other answer as to where the center of the universe is. So indeed the sun may travel around the earth if that is what you want to believe.

You know, I'm the only real materialist on this site. :)

[Tim Finnegan]

Exactly where you miss the point. You are assuming there is some sort of center. Saying that the earth is the center of the universe is just as correct as any other answer as to where the center of the universe is. So indeed the sun may travel around the earth if that is what you want to believe.
Do you actually know how gravity works?


You know, I'm the only real materialist on this site. :)
You're talking a very certain kind of matter, I'll give you that much. :rolleyes:

[Bud Struggle]

Do you actually know how gravity works?


To a vague extent. But that rule is just like planets existing. It exists. It's the homan mind that sets order to things. It says here is a center, here is the edge. It says here is history, here is progress. That's the story of the Dialetic--the human mind setting an arbitrary order to the chaos of human history.

Believe such things to your peril. You want to believe in society--fine. The society of man, of that of the United states, of the State, of the neighborhood or the family or just me. Believe in anyone or them all. Be a patriot or a white racist or love all people of all color. Choose your "society."

Each is equally arbitrary. Whatever you want to to be a part of--feel free to join.

[synthesis]

I understand. But they STILL BOUGHT THE DRUGS! The CIA figured they were assholes and they played right into their hands.

How are you going to fight a Revolution is you can't fight being high 24/7? The CIA owned the Brother's butts.

Stay straight, stay sober, win the Revolution. But I guess--people had other plans.

You said that "crack brought the black community down" and I explained the wider historical context to you.

I'm genuinely curious if you are trolling me (3/10 if so) or if you have some congenital predisposition against intellectual honesty.

[Bud Struggle]

You said that "crack brought the black community down" and I explained the wider historical context to you.

I'm genuinely curious if you are trolling me (3/10 if so) or if you have some congenital predisposition against intellectual honesty.

I agree with your wider context that the CIA did things to the drug market to make drugs more available. So there thery were on the street.

And then a lot of people made a decision and took them. There was a government decision and a million private decisions. Where's the problem?

[Ele'ill]

Where's the problem?

The conditions necessary within society to allow it to be used as a weapon against the poor.

[Tim Finnegan]

To a vague extent. But that rule is just like planets existing. It exists. It's the homan mind that sets order to things. It says here is a center, here is the edge.
So, "no"?

[Bud Struggle]

So, "no"?

Why do you? If this is some long drawn out point--I'll read about it tomorrow. :)

[Skooma Addict]

To a vague extent. But that rule is just like planets existing. It exists. It's the homan mind that sets order to things. It says here is a center, here is the edge. It says here is history, here is progress. That's the story of the Dialetic--the human mind setting an arbitrary order to the chaos of human history.

Believe such things to your peril. You want to believe in society--fine. The society of man, of that of the United states, of the State, of the neighborhood or the family or just me. Believe in anyone or them all. Be a patriot or a white racist or love all people of all color. Choose your "society."

Each is equally arbitrary. Whatever you want to to be a part of--feel free to join.

Are you high?

[Revolution starts with U]

OK maybe. You win on the Forum. I win in real life. The rich are still rich and the poor are still poor. Call me names if you want--say things are changing. Say there's a Revolution comming. Say people are revoltiing.

Say it.

Fine.

But tomorrow will be another working day for you and for me. And you will go about your business and I will go about mine.
It's not about winning. It's about truth. I care not if I win. But I do care about dishonesty. Shoot me in the fucking brain... if that's what it takes to free the masses from their yolks, so be it.


I agree. But that's what it looks like now and there isn't ANYTHING that is on the horizon that will change these turn of events.

But speciticly as far as poverty goes--ther were no "maqrginal" people in hunter-gatherer societies. Those that couldn't make it,

Died.
It just shows you know/care less about the truth of anthropology than you do politics.


I'm in the corner? It's pretty obvious that the Proletariat doesn't exist other than as a theory.

Not on the streets of Portland at least.
"It's pretty obvious gravity doesn't exist other than a theory." Do you even know what a theory is?


So, "no"?
You knew the answer before you asked the question.

You're getting really ganged up on today Bud. I feel for you. And I wish it didn't have to be so. But you're wrong... sorta. You're not so much outright wrong, as just pure rhetoric that ignores the deeper context of the issues.

[synthesis]

I agree with your wider context that the CIA did things to the drug market to make drugs more available. So there thery were on the street.

And then a lot of people made a decision and took them. There was a government decision and a million private decisions. Where's the problem?

One problem is that your distinction between "government decisions" and "private decisions" is artificial.

[Viet Minh]

I agree. But that's what it looks like now and there isn't ANYTHING that is on the horizon that will change these turn of events.

But speciticly as far as poverty goes--ther were no "maqrginal" people in hunter-gatherer societies. Those that couldn't make it,

Died.

I heard of archaelogical findings that showed a disabled person was carried over hundreds of miles by his tribe and presumably looked after, fed and cared for. I wouldn't even know where to start looking for a citation but I thought I'd mention it anyway :D


They are Proletarians...you are Proletarian. And there are a million shades of gray in between.

There's the system, the bourgeois and the proletarians, there may be shades of grey in between but the police are part of the system, who protect the bourgeouis and keep the proletarians in check.

[PhoenixAsh]

But speciticly as far as poverty goes--ther were no "maqrginal" people in hunter-gatherer societies. Those that couldn't make it, Died.

That may be well and true to some extend but any tribalist argument of the weak dying is completely invalidated by the fact that humankind has spend considerable effort to make advances to see to that not happening.

Only those who stand to lose their property and position which they have acquired at the expense of others or those that hold vague hope to somehow attain that position will argue that its natural for the weak to die.

The problem with your initial argument is that in natural scarcety there will not be enough to provide for everybody if the land can not sustain the population.

We however do not have scarcety and the land can easilly provide for everybody were it not for the fact that some seem to think themselves entitled to acquire a share beyond what they actually need. That takes away from the total resources available to the entire population which causes the rest to share amongst themselves and compete for the left overs. Some therefore have nothing and others to have everything.

Now in another post you argue that its human nature to see and make order. Which is correct imo. But taht does not necessarilly mean the current order is the only order or that it is the best order we can make.

[tracher999]

i hate cops why they defend facist action they never get the real criminals they only get youth that stands talking on the corner of the streetz they are the criminals not us FUCK COPS

[SacRedMan]

On YouTube there is a video about an American cop pepper sprays a baby squirrel :mad: I can't post it because I'm not able to post links or images your post count must be 25 or greater. :cursing:

[PhoenixAsh]

7eDhdEd8zrg

THere you go.

The police later issued a statement saying the cop ordered the squirrel to go away, but it did not and it acted menacingly (no joke...) so he concluded it was infected with rabies and wanted to protect the children.

Which he could also have done btw by just ordering them inside.

The squirrel was taken to animal control. Received treatment and was released back into the wild.

[Viet Minh]

7eDhdEd8zrg

THere you go.

The police later issued a statement saying the cop ordered the squirrel to go away, but it did not and it acted menacingly (no joke...) so he concluded it was infected with rabies and wanted to protect the children.

Which he could also have done btw by just ordering them inside.

The squirrel was taken to animal control. Received treatment and was released back into the wild.

This actually reminds me of a joke but its kinda innapropriate to repeat it now.
While this incident is hard to watch, its almost trivial compared to some of the cruelty to humans that the police engage in.

[Ele'ill]

This actually reminds me of a joke but its kinda innapropriate to repeat it now.

Thanks for letting us know.

[Viet Minh]

Thanks for letting us know.

Thanks for the sarcasm, always helpful! :)

[stella2010]

I feel like walking 10 doors down and smashing the fuck through a Police Officer. Turn ing into a frequent flyer so he could visit Greece and get some.


"Chop em away…love it"

- FOOTBALL FACTORY