Policeman killed in Omagh car bomb attack

[Che a chara]

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/51976000/jpg/_51976332_omaghbomb.jpg
The booby-trap bomb exploded in a residential area

A 25-year-old police officer has been killed after a bomb exploded under his car in Omagh, County Tyrone.

The device exploded under the vehicle outside his home in Highfield Close, just before 1600 BST on Saturday.

Neighbours rushed to help him and some used fire extinguishers to put out the flames from the explosion. He died at the scene.

He was recently qualified and is the second policeman to be killed since the PSNI was formed out of the RUC in 2001.

Since 2007, dissident republicans have planted dozens of booby-trap bombs under the private cars of police officers.

The bombs have failed to detonate, but two policemen lost their legs in attacks in May 2008 and January 2010.

On Saturday morning about 2,000 people, who were taking part in the Omagh half marathon, passed the nearby entrance to the estate just hours before the blast.

Politicians and party leaders from across Northern Ireland and the Republic have condemned (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-12947646) the attack. As of yet there has been no claim of responsibility for his murder.

Northern Ireland's First Minister, Peter Robinson, said he shared the outrage of the country.

Dissident republicans are trying to de-stabilise Northern Ireland at a time when it has rarely been more stable.

Power-sharing is working. The Stormont Assembly has just completed it first full four-year term for 30 years.

Relations between Britain and Ireland have never been better. This summer, the Queen will make an historic first visit to Dublin, demonstrating how relations on these islands have normalised.

Violent republican groups like the Real IRA and Oglaigh na hEireann are fighting against normality.

"It was a young man who was bravely entering the police service, recognising that he was putting his life on the line.

"I have absolutely no doubt the overwhelming number of people in NI want to move on. It's only a few Neanderthal who want to go back.

"They will not drag us back to the past."

Prime Minister, David Cameron, said the officer had dedicated himself to serving the entire community of Northern Ireland.

"Our thoughts and prayers go out to his family and his friends. This is a terrible tragedy for all who knew him and served with him, and for a town that had already suffered so much," he said.

"Those who carried out this wicked and cowardly crime will never succeed in dragging Northern Ireland back to a dark and bloody past. Their actions are rejected by the overwhelming majority of people right from all parts of the community.

"I know that the Chief Constable of the PSNI will not rest until the perpetrators have been brought to justice.

Secretary of State, Owen Paterson, said it had been "an evil act, carried out by enemies of the whole community".

"First and foremost my heartfelt thoughts and prayers are with the family, friends and colleagues of the young PSNI officer who was murdered.

"The people in all parts of Ireland and beyond want peace and those who carried out this atrocity are in the grip of an obscene delusion if they think that by murder they can defy their will".

Dissidents

Shadow Northern Ireland Secretary, Shaun Woodward, described it as "an evil and cowardly attack".

"These crimes are targeted on those who protect the community," he said.

"We all deeply mourn the brave young man whose life was taken by this savage crime.

"We all have a duty to stop those behind it from succeeding."

Sinn Fein president, Gerry Adams, said his party was determined that those responsible would not set back the progress of the peace and political process.

Ulster Unionist leader Tom Elliott said those behind the murder had one aim - to take Northern Ireland back to the dark days of the past.

"The deliberate targeting of a new recruit to the police by these criminals is utterly reprehensible," he said.

Prayers

SDLP leader Margaret Ritchie said the policeman's killers were enemies of Ireland.

"This has not only stunned the people of Omagh, it has stunned the entire country," she said.

"This is not what the people want. They cannot be allowed to continue their campaign."

Prayers are being said at vigil masses throughout Omagh on Saturday night for the policeman.

In March 2009, a police officer was shot dead as he answered a distress call in Craigavon, County Armagh.

Dissident republican group, the Continuity IRA, claimed responsibility for the attack. Constable Stephen Carroll, 48, was married and from Banbridge.

He was murdered two days after the Real IRA shot dead two soldiers outside Massereene Barracks in Antrim.

The Continuity IRA is one of a number of dissident republican paramilitary groups opposed to the peace process. They have carried out bomb and gun attacks on civilians and the security forces.

There is believed to be cross-over and co-operation between the Continuity IRA and the larger Real IRA, which bombed Omagh in 1998.

The car bomb killed 29 people, including a woman pregnant with twins, and injured hundreds more.

LINK: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-12947225

[Che a chara]

I don't think this will further the cause of a liberated Ireland free from British crown RUC/PSNI oppression, but it will more than likely lead to further harassment, raids, arrests and trumped up charges on Irish republicans.

[Manic Impressive]

:thumbup: one down too many to go

[Dr Mindbender]

:thumbup: one down too many to go

well theres another job vacancy if nothing else.



I don't think this will further the cause of a liberated Ireland free from British crown RUC/PSNI oppression, but it will more than likely lead to further harassment, raids, arrests and trumped up charges on Irish republicans.
Not to mention the possibility of reprisal tit for tat attacks from loyalist death squads.

[ComradeMan]

"The car bomb killed 29 people, including a woman pregnant with twins, and injured hundreds more. "

:cursing:

Cowardly bastards if you ask me and no one to glorify by any means.

[Che a chara]

I wont lose any sleep, the RUC/PSNI are bigoted scum and are totally anti-working class whose allegiance is to the upkeep of British imperialism and the monarchy in occupied Ireland, but the reality is that this will divide the Protestant and Catholic working class more and result in state oppression, checkpoints, and harassment being increased.

[Che a chara]

"The car bomb killed 29 people, including a woman pregnant with twins, and injured hundreds more. "

:cursing:

Cowardly bastards if you ask me and no one to glorify by any means.

There's no real need to justify that atrocity, but the facts are very complex with FBI and MI5 involvement and the RUC not acting upon warnings received.

[Gorilla]

SDLP leader Margaret Ritchie said the policeman's killers were enemies of Ireland....

The car bomb killed 29 people, including a woman pregnant with twins, and injured hundreds more.


It's a curious statement that the thing SDLP chooses to single out for condemnation is the cop, like that's the most heinous thing about it. There's a reason they call em the stoops.

[Manic Impressive]

The article is about 1 police getting killed, it ends by reminding everyone of the bombing from 1998 where 29 people died. That was obviously a terrible event, this time no civilian casualties means I won't be feeling bad about this.

[Viet Minh]

:thumbup: one down too many to go

However much I despise the psni, its crazy to celebrate this mans murder just because of his job. How do you feel about the murder of Steven Carroll, a catholic who was murdered trying to protect his community, leaving behind his wife and family? Not all cops are bad, and not all IRA are good. The fact is N.I is in a tentative peace it has not experienced for decades before, shit like this could just drag everyone back into bloody and pointless conflict. Sinn Fein are in a position to make positive changes to N.I, these dissidents could fuck that all up fairly easily. Most of the Republican community are opposed to RIRA and CIRA, for good reason.


I wont lose any sleep, the RUC/PSNI are bigoted scum and are totally anti-working class whose allegiance is to the upkeep of British imperialism and the monarchy in occupied Ireland, but the reality is that this will divide the Protestant and Catholic working class more and result in state oppression, checkpoints, and harassment being increased.

Why do you still call them the RUC? Things have changed a lot for the better since those days, a lot of Loyalists feel that the PSNI are biased against the Unionist community, and have debatable evidence to back that up.


It's a curious statement that the thing SDLP chooses to single out for condemnation is the cop, like that's the most heinous thing about it. There's a reason they call em the stoops.

That was a seperate incident, the SDLP are republican, albeit thye are liberal and outspoken against the IRA.


There's no real need to justify that atrocity, but the facts are very complex with FBI and MI5 involvement and the RUC not acting upon warnings received.

Source on the FBI thing? :blink:

[Tim Finnegan]

:thumbup: one down too many to go
The few dozen micks taking truncheons to the skull in reparation for this will be wanting to thank you for your enthusiasm, I am quite sure. :mad:

These guys are scum. Their idiotic campaign has achieved nothing and never will achieving anything but death, misery, and the continued fragmentation of the Northern Irish working class and the retardation of working class politics in what should by all rights be one of the the most pro-radical regions in the United Kingdom. Every bomb blast drives the protestants back into the pocket of Paisley and his quasi-fascist crew, and the reprisals drive the Catholics into the arms of church and terrorists. Only when this thoroughly bourgeois delusion of national struggle is put aside once and for all can the working people of Northern Ireland make any real progress as a class.

Cue the music:

VSYPecZI_AI

[Devrim]

These guys are scum. Their idiotic campaign has achieved nothing and never will achieving anything but death, misery, and the continued fragmentation of the Northern Irish working class and the retardation of working class politics in what should by all rights be one of the the most pro-radical regions in the United Kingdom. Every bomb blast drives the protestants back into the pocket of Paisley and his quasi-fascist crew, and the reprisals drive the Catholics into the arms of church and terrorists. Only when this thoroughly bourgeois delusion of national struggle is put aside once and for all can the working people of Northern Ireland make any real progress as a class.

I agree with the general sentiment here but don't quite understand this line. Why should it be radical? It is the place in the UK where the working class is the most divided, and which has the lowest wage levels in the UK, two facts not, in my opinion totally unconnected.

Wouldn't we expect it to be the least radical?

Devrim

[Che a chara]

However much I despise the psni, its crazy to celebrate this mans murder just because of his job. How do you feel about the murder of Steven Carroll, a catholic who was murdered trying to protect his community, leaving behind his wife and family? Not all cops are bad, and not all IRA are good. The fact is N.I is in a tentative peace it has not experienced for decades before, shit like this could just drag everyone back into bloody and pointless conflict. Sinn Fein are in a position to make positive changes to N.I, these dissidents could fuck that all up fairly easily. Most of the Republican community are opposed to RIRA and CIRA, for good reason.


These guys are scum. Their idiotic campaign has achieved nothing and never will achieving anything but death, misery, and the continued fragmentation of the Northern Irish working class and the retardation of working class politics in what should by all rights be one of the the most pro-radical regions in the United Kingdom. Every bomb blast drives the protestants back into the pocket of Paisley and his quasi-fascist crew, and the reprisals drive the Catholics into the arms of church and terrorists. Only when this thoroughly bourgeois delusion of national struggle is put aside once and for all can the working people of Northern Ireland make any real progress as a class.

I don't know for sure what their rationale is. They are traditional republicans who use traditional republican methods and principles. They also see using violence as a means to smash the normalisation process that is occurring in the 6 counties, i.e. normalising the occupation and conditions of British rule. Then there is the numerous abuses still occurring in harassment of republicans and their families (even those who don't support the armed struggle) and the poor treatment of Irish republican prisoners.... maybe a bit of revenge....?


Why do you still call them the RUC? Things have changed a lot for the better since those days, a lot of Loyalists feel that the PSNI are biased against the Unionist community, and have debatable evidence to back that up.

Their full name after the name change was to: 'Police Service of Northern Ireland (incorporating the Royal Ulster Constabulary)' - to be shortened to the Police Service of Northern Ireland for operational purposes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_Service_of_Northern_Ireland).

Many elements of the old RUC where still kept in employment, including those that were involved in collusion and not rooted out. The so called reformed police still show the same biased mentality when dealing with those in the nationalist community compared to those in the unionist community. For example, recent riots in Ardoyne caused the RUC/PSNI to put videos and pictures of nationalist youths out rioting into the media and made numerous arrests in connection to the riots, then when a similar riot occurred in Rathcoole (a unionist area), the police refrained from making many arrests or using CCTV coverage to release videos or pictures to the media so the community could identify the culprits, despite a female bus driver being assaulted and having her bus hijacked and burnt and police being attacked.

Sinn Fein's promise when they gave support to the new policing set-up was "To put manners into the police". I can guarantee that while there has been some changes for the better, the old remnants and attitudes still remain.


That was a seperate incident, the SDLP are republican, albeit thye are liberal and outspoken against the IRA.

The SDLP are definitely not republican mate. There is nothing revolutionary about them. They even see the monarchy as legitimate and have pledged oaths to the Queen.


Source on the FBI thing? :blink:

An FBI agent named David Rupert infiltrated the RIRA.

Here's a few articles:

http://wideshut.co.uk/omagh-bombers-appeal-evidence-suggests-false-flag/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-378176/MI5-kept-police-dark-Omagh-bomb.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-12147494
http://www.thepost.ie/archives/2002/0210/revealed-mi5-informer-warning-on-omagh-bomb-812126728.html#

[Manic Impressive]

However much I despise the psni, its crazy to celebrate this mans murder just because of his job. How do you feel about the murder of Steven Carroll, a catholic who was murdered trying to protect his community, leaving behind his wife and family? Not all cops are bad, and not all IRA are good. The fact is N.I is in a tentative peace it has not experienced for decades before, shit like this could just drag everyone back into bloody and pointless conflict. Sinn Fein are in a position to make positive changes to N.I, these dissidents could fuck that all up fairly easily. Most of the Republican community are opposed to RIRA and CIRA, for good reason.
I couldn't give a flying fuck what religion the cop is catholic, protestant or scientologist it makes no difference. Someone who chooses to enter the police force chooses to oppress his own class and especially in Northern Ireland sides with an imperialist power who has oppressed that region for 800 years. They are not civilians they are valid targets. In fact we should be praising them on a successful operation in which no civilians have been hurt. I don't believe participation in bourgeois parliamentary politics is an effective way to get them to give up anything and until Northern Ireland is free from the United Kingdom and free from it's influence to be able to decide whether to stay a separate nation or to join the republic the army, the police and government targets are legitimate.

The few dozen micks taking truncheons to the skull in reparation for this will be wanting to thank you for your enthusiasm, I am quite sure. :mad: Some will and some won't. But is police reprisals a reason to stop fighting? I can just see you standing on the sidelines if a revolution kicked off shouting ":crying: no no please stop if you rise up against the police they might come back and hurt us later" :laugh:. The police will continue to target catholics in Northern Ireland regardless of bombs going off or did they all turn into Mary Poppins as soon as the stormont agreement was signed?

At the end of the day whatever country it is a pig is a pig and I won't be crying over a bit of burnt bacon.

[Tim Finnegan]

I agree with the general sentiment here but don't quite understand this line. Why should it be radical? It is the place in the UK where the working class is the most divided, and which has the lowest wage levels in the UK, two facts not, in my opinion totally unconnected.

Wouldn't we expect it to be the least radical?

Devrim
That's my point- that the ethno-religious conflict has divide the working class and thus prevented any substantial working class radicalism from emerging. This should not be the case, because Northern Ireland is a poor post-industrial region with high levels of poverty, and so, without this conflict, could be expected to exhibit the same left-leaning tendencies as other such regions in the North of England and in Scotland.

[ComradeMan]

Apart from the fact that I think these groups are reactionary paramilitaries with dubious credentials- they don't seem to have the support of the communities they are supposed to represent. I think leftists should not really have anything to do with them nor praise them.

[Che a chara]

In the past in the North of Ireland there was the conditions and enough adequate support for a sustained and justified campaign to occur. Neither of these are the case now.

However, I see no problem with such armed groups taking action against serious anti-social elements and criminals, i.e. sex offenders, granny robbers, habitual thieves/joyriders.

[Viet Minh]

I don't know for sure what their rationale is. They are traditional republicans who use traditional republican methods and principles. They also see using violence as a means to smash the normalisation process that is occurring in the 6 counties, i.e. normalising the occupation and conditions of British rule. Then there is the numerous abuses still occurring in harassment of republicans and their families (even those who don't support the armed struggle) and the poor treatment of Irish republican prisoners.... maybe a bit of revenge....?

I don't know if you now many loyalist prisoners, but the feeling there is exactly the same. revenge is not the way to move forward, we need to be uniting communities not dividing them further.


Their full name after the name change was to: 'Police Service of Northern Ireland (incorporating the Royal Ulster Constabulary)' - to be shortened to the Police Service of Northern Ireland for operational purposes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_Service_of_Northern_Ireland).

Many elements of the old RUC where still kept in employment, including those that were involved in collusion and not rooted out. The so called reformed police still show the same biased mentality when dealing with those in the nationalist community compared to those in the unionist community. For example, recent riots in Ardoyne caused the RUC/PSNI to put videos and pictures of nationalist youths out rioting into the media and made numerous arrests in connection to the riots, then when a similar riot occurred in Rathcoole (a unionist area), the police refrained from making many arrests or using CCTV coverage to release videos or pictures to the media so the community could identify the culprits, despite a female bus driver being assaulted and having her bus hijacked and burnt and police being attacked.

Sinn Fein's promise when they gave support to the new policing set-up was "To put manners into the police". I can guarantee that while there has been some changes for the better, the old remnants and attitudes still remain.

There is a strong perception amongst the loyalist community of bias against the unionists by the police, popularly dubbed the papal service northern ireland. One example is the historic crimes squad which have prosecuted far more 'loyalist' paramilitaries than republican ones. Loyalists have been shot at, beaten, imprisoned without charge, and worse by the psni/ ruc, and in return have done plenty damage to them, but of course they don't publicise these actions as generally they support the rule of British law. Also in various agreements the majority of prisoners released are republican, this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/854970.stm) is quite an old article but a significant event in the peace process. And with all due respect, the attitudes have completely changed. For instance a huge number of people from all communities in n.i. to come together to peacfully demonstrate for peace after the massareene barracks shootings. The exremist loyalist and republicans who were baying for blood were effectively shut out by the community, almost nobody wants a return to violence. The mainj point though is both sides need to stand together in peace to fight injustice by the state, this sort of thing only divides them and escalates conflict, which is (according to some) exactly what 'they' the ruling elite want..


The SDLP are definitely not republican mate. There is nothing revolutionary about them. They even see the monarchy as legitimate and have pledged oaths to the Queen.
An FBI agent named David Rupert infiltrated the RIRA.
Here's a few articles:
http://wideshut.co.uk/omagh-bombers-appeal-evidence-suggests-false-flag/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-378176/MI5-kept-police-dark-Omagh-bomb.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-12147494
http://www.thepost.ie/archives/2002/0210/revealed-mi5-informer-warning-on-omagh-bomb-812126728.html#

Thanks! I'll check that later, but yeah no wonder we're called the 51st state!
The SDLP belive in a United Ireland, thats how I would define Republican in terms of Ireland. Pledging oaths to the Queen is just a symptom of our rather outdated legal system, I don't imagine many of them are actually royalist!


I couldn't give a flying fuck what religion the cop is catholic, protestant or scientologist it makes no difference. Someone who chooses to enter the police force chooses to oppress his own class and especially in Northern Ireland sides with an imperialist power who has oppressed that region for 800 years. They are not civilians they are valid targets. In fact we should be praising them on a successful operation in which no civilians have been hurt. I don't believe participation in bourgeois parliamentary politics is an effective way to get them to give up anything and until Northern Ireland is free from the United Kingdom and free from it's influence to be able to decide whether to stay a separate nation or to join the republic the army, the police and government targets are legitimate.

My point about him being Catholic is he is a member of the class (sic) you are alleging is being opressed, the very community his job requires him to protect. And it IS free to choose either Independence or Union with Ireland, the 'bourgeois parliamentary politics' you speak of are the fairest way to represent all people of Northern Ireland. Suppose I decide today that the Ulster Scots are entitled to the entire 9 counties of Ulster, does that make the Garda and Irish Army legitimate targets for my campaign? And it doesn't matter what the majority think because more than 800 years ago we had our own independent county?


Some will and some won't. But is police reprisals a reason to stop fighting? I can just see you standing on the sidelines if a revolution kicked off shouting ":crying: no no please stop if you rise up against the police they might come back and hurt us later" :laugh:. The police will continue to target catholics in Northern Ireland regardless of bombs going off or did they all turn into Mary Poppins as soon as the stormont agreement was signed?

At the end of the day whatever country it is a pig is a pig and I won't be crying over a bit of burnt bacon.

Please can you cite some non-biased references to back up your claim that 'the police target catholics in northern ireland' (incidentally what happened to 'I don't give a fuck about religion'?) Because the only catholic victim I see here is Ronan Kerr.. :confused:


In the past in the North of Ireland there was the conditions and enough adequate support for a sustained and justified campaign to occur. Neither of these are the case now.

However, I see no problem with such armed groups taking action against serious anti-social elements and criminals, i.e. sex offenders, granny robbers, habitual thieves/joyriders.

But what laws do they implement, do they receive a fair trial? And what punishment is given, because sometimes (from an outside perspective, forgive me if i'm misinformed) the vigilante justice of all the paramilitary groups seems less fair than the law in Britain or Ireland.

There is a new movement that seems to be a grassroots rebellion crossing the political divide. It is fundamentally anarchist, the youths calling themselves 'hoods' and allied without leadership, roughly divided by areas but not in gang conflict as far as I'm aware. Their watchwords are 'UTH' (up the hoods) 'FAP' (not THAT fap :D it stands for fuck all paramilitaries) and although some political slogans from either side of the divide remain, mostly they seem content to riot and smoke weed. Their existence seems to be a reaction to the heavy-handed nature of both the police and the paramilitaries, who often kneecap joyriders and heavy drug users.

[Manic Impressive]

My point about him being Catholic is he is a member of the class (sic) you are alleging is being opressed, the very community his job requires him to protect.
No being catholic isn't a class. The police do not protect the working class


And it IS free to choose either Independence or Union with Ireland,
Not until they are completely free from the influence of Westminster.


the 'bourgeois parliamentary politics' you speak of are the fairest way to represent all people of Northern Ireland.
You're restricted for being a soc dem right?


Suppose I decide today that the Ulster Scots are entitled to the entire 9 counties of Ulster, does that make the Garda and Irish Army legitimate targets for my campaign? And it doesn't matter what the majority think because more than 800 years ago we had our own independent county?No that would make you Ian Paisley. But yeah police are always legitimate targets in any capitalist nation.


Please can you cite some non-biased references to back up your claim that 'the police target catholics in northern ireland' (incidentally what happened to 'I don't give a fuck about religion'?) Because the only catholic victim I see here is Ronan Kerr.. :confused:
So you are arguing that catholics in Northern Ireland are not discriminated against by police in Northern Ireland:lol: ok....
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/oct/11/northern-ireland-terrorists-miscarriages-justice

most of this is about the 70's, but really as it is a matter of fact that catholics in Northern Ireland have been discriminated against, beaten and tortured since the creation of the RUC. I actually asked if it had changed so I think it's on you to provide some evidence that they have changed.

Almost all the men and women who are appealing were convicted by the controversial no-jury Diplock courts that heard terrorism cases in Northern Ireland between 1973 and 2007. Established after a number of jury members were intimidated and potential witnesses murdered, they could convict on the basis of a confession alone, and defendants were expected to prove any claim that a confession had been coerced.

I think this song describes my feelings on the subject quite well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12bprbRodbI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12bprbRodbI)

[Viet Minh]

No being catholic isn't a class. The police do not protect the working class

Agreed, which is why ideas of national identity are irrelevant to N.I, or should be


Not until they are completely free from the influence of Westminster.

So you're saying they have to become Independent (against the will of the vast majority who vote for either Union with the UK or Rep. Ireland, I'm not even sure there are any pro-Independence parties just now, other than the national front) - to decide if they want to be Independent or not? I'm sorry I don't understand that.


You're restricted for being a soc dem right?

Nobody told me why I was restricted, I suspect for pro-loyalist views to an extent. I don't define myself into any particular group but Democratic Socialism makes the most sense to me. Social Democrats don't deal with the injustice of Capitalism.


No that would make you Ian Paisley.
Ian Paisley for his many faults does not suggest anyone is entitled to N.I, if he did he wouldn't be part of the democratic political process, let alone institute a power-sharing Government with Sinn Fein.


But yeah police are always legitimate targets in any capitalist nation.

Okay so are the Garda legitimate targets, as the Republic of Ireland is also a Capitalist nation? If so then why is it that the 32 county socialist movement concentrates all of its aggression on the 'occupied' six counties, which incidentally never were united and ruled by Dublin. Last time I checked the Republic never voted for Sinn fein either. Is it because, as I somewhat suspect, the IRA is more concerned with ideas of nationalism than socialism?


So you are arguing that catholics in Northern Ireland are not discriminated against by police in Northern Ireland:lol: ok....
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/oct/11/northern-ireland-terrorists-miscarriages-justice

Whilst these allegations are shocking if true, I take issue with your wording that this is anti catholic discrimination. First of all the article makes no mention of catholics or protestants, loyalist or republicans, and as I said before experiences are similar on both sides. My support is not for the police but the people of n.i, ALL the people. Second this is not to do with their politics but their actions as IRA members who killed people, to slap them across the face is absolutely wrong and a crime in the UK but lets keep things in some sort of perspective.


most of this is about the 70's, but really as it is a matter of fact that catholics in Northern Ireland have been discriminated against, beaten and tortured since the creation of the RUC. I actually asked if it had changed so I think it's on you to provide some evidence that they have changed.

Read the book 'Holy War in Belfast' you'll think you're living in paradise, that is if you even live in n.i, my guess is you don't.


I think this song describes my feelings on the subject quite well.
12bprbRodbI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12bprbRodbI)

There's a million blinkered propaganda videos I could post but I'll go for this one, it actually brought about a precious few weeks of peace when it was shown on n.i tv.

TibB_VWa9uA

[Demogorgon]

Another demented thread where people reveal their nationalism is getting underway. Stuff like this happens because a few lunatics cannot accept that most people do not want Sectarian conflict to rage up over and over again and seek the thrill of doing this kind of thing regardless.

As for the wider issue of the Northern Ireland problem, I know some people here are determined not to see sense, but let's try to strip the nationalism away. There are many good arguments why Ireland should be united. Apart from anything else having two separate administrative structures on one relatively small island is pretty bizarre. What is not a good argument is rubbish about Ireland "naturally" being one nation, claims that Britain is inherently foreign or by far the worst claims that partition is an injustice on the Republic of Ireland which are essentially irredentist arguments.

The reason that these do not work is first of all leftists should not be getting into rubbish about nationhood but even leaving that aside it is difficult to argue that Ireland is indivisible given it has a ninety year history of division. Partition didn't make much sense at the time, but when has drawing borders made much sense? And given the history of Europe in the twentieth century, those boarders are pretty long standing compared to many others.

Further Britain cannot be considered foreign while a majority of people in Northern Ireland consider themselves British. Nor on a related note can one claim British oppression separate from the general injustices of the British state throughout the UK. Certainly they did exist (though much of the worst excesses came from Unionists in Northern Ireland rather than from London) but Northern Ireland is being treated much more like other parts of the UK now. And of course I hope I don't have to explain why Irredentism is unacceptable.

As it happens I believe Ireland should be United, but arguments that that should be so based upon appeals to historical narrative or nationalism or whatever are pathetic. Give it a rest.

[Dr Mindbender]

Further Britain cannot be considered foreign while a majority of people in Northern Ireland consider themselves British. Nor on a related note can one claim British oppression separate from the general injustices of the British state throughout the UK. Certainly they did exist (though much of the worst excesses came from Unionists in Northern Ireland rather than from London) .
O rlly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballymurphy_Massacre)

[Demogorgon]

O rlly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballymurphy_Massacre)
How precisely is something that happened in 1971 relevant to my claim that today Northern Ireland is treated much the same as other parts of the UK?

[Tim Finnegan]

How precisely is something that happened in 1971 relevant to my claim that today Northern Ireland is treated much the same as other parts of the UK?
That only really works if you forget that everything outside the Home Counties is treated like a conveniently nearby colony.

[Demogorgon]

That only really works if you forget that everything outside the Home Counties is treated like a conveniently nearby colony.
Given I live in Glasgow that would be difficult for me to forget. However I wasn't talking about the injustices of the UK in general, simply how Northern Ireland is treated much the same as other parts of the UK.

To be sure I think the UK is a pretty nasty state even compared to its immediate neighbours (though the Republic of Ireland is severely problematic as well), but my point is solely that it makes little sense to talk about Northern Ireland as a uniquely oppressed place these days.

[Che a chara]

I don't know if you now many loyalist prisoners, but the feeling there is exactly the same. revenge is not the way to move forward, we need to be uniting communities not dividing them further.

I agree. Ex-loyalist prisoners have been treated like shit by the British state upon their release. A lot of them were manipulated by security forces to engage in a sectarian conflict, now many are suffering from depression, looked down on in society and can't get a job. Just left to rot after been used by the state. The common enemy that we should all unite against is capitalism and to a certain extent, British imperialism, that has delivered nothing for those loyalist prisoners -- But they do say 'freedom is a state of mind' ......


There is a strong perception amongst the loyalist community of bias against the unionists by the police, popularly dubbed the papal service northern ireland. One example is the historic crimes squad which have prosecuted far more 'loyalist' paramilitaries than republican ones.

loyal, it's no coincidence or conspiracy that loyalists were involved in more controversial and more unsolved murders than republicans were, especially with the fact that there was often collusion with the British state. What we see now is British agents and loyalist super-grasses coming forward with evidence.


Loyalists have been shot at, beaten, imprisoned without charge, and worse by the psni/ ruc, and in return have done plenty damage to them, but of course they don't publicise these actions as generally they support the rule of British law.

Bad shit happened in the past, but loyalists aren't very active in paramilitary activity anymore, but modern day internment still occurs, moreso on Irish republicans as they would be more active.

Recent events include, last week it was revealed that a prison screw planted a note containing personal details of a former prison governor in the cell of an Irish republican (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-12887492). Also, The four charged, and interned, in connection with the killing of the two British army soldiers at Massereene Barracks 2 years ago and the shooting of PC Steven Carrol are fighting to have the charges dropped after it has emerged that police falsified evidence and very conveniently lost some evidence and apparent trackers on the getaway cars supposedly used. You can read about Colin Duffy's (one of those arrested in connection to the deaths of the two Brits) case at this site: http://friendsofcolinduffy.com/default.aspx



Also in various agreements the majority of prisoners released are republican, this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/854970.stm) is quite an old article but a significant event in the peace process.

That's because there was more republican prisoners in gaol than loyalist ones ;)


And with all due respect, the attitudes have completely changed. For instance a huge number of people from all communities in n.i. to come together to peacfully demonstrate for peace after the massareene barracks shootings. The exremist loyalist and republicans who were baying for blood were effectively shut out by the community, almost nobody wants a return to violence. The mainj point though is both sides need to stand together in peace to fight injustice by the state, this sort of thing only divides them and escalates conflict, which is (according to some) exactly what 'they' the ruling elite want..

For definite the vast majority of both communities are against violence. But when you have the shambles that is Stormont and the circus politics that does not deliver anything, then people become totally disillusioned. The ruling elite are happy for these sectarian squabbles to continue, and that includes Sinn Fein and the DUP who are the two main opposing parties as this keeps them in power and the British government knows that a divided community keeps the failed state continuing.

The upcoming election should be interesting with those once considered "dissidents" and anti-state running for their respective parties and as independents.


But what laws do they implement, do they receive a fair trial? And what punishment is given, because sometimes (from an outside perspective, forgive me if i'm misinformed) the vigilante justice of all the paramilitary groups seems less fair than the law in Britain or Ireland.

Well the groups get their information from the community and then do their own 'investigation'. Very rarely has it ever been a case of mistaken identity. The main punishments are either getting the culprits to come forward and apologise to issuing threats -- failing that -- baseball bat attacks, kneecappings or two to the ankles. It might sound barbaric, but there is support for it, especially seeing as the PSNI/RUC are totally unreliable when it comes to policing working class communities and have often used anti-social elements as informers so these crims get a lighter punishment/sentence from the state then they are released back into their areas again to commit more crimes and become eyes and ears against any republican activity.


There is a new movement that seems to be a grassroots rebellion crossing the political divide. It is fundamentally anarchist, the youths calling themselves 'hoods' and allied without leadership, roughly divided by areas but not in gang conflict as far as I'm aware. Their watchwords are 'UTH' (up the hoods) 'FAP' (not THAT fap :D it stands for fuck all paramilitaries) and although some political slogans from either side of the divide remain, mostly they seem content to riot and smoke weed. Their existence seems to be a reaction to the heavy-handed nature of both the police and the paramilitaries, who often kneecap joyriders and heavy drug users.

Yeah them fucking hoods are everywhere. I'd say their existence is more down to the lack of employment in society which drives them to drug use and criminality. Then there are those who use punishment shootings as a badge of honour and as a symbol of rebellion. So once again, the capitalist system is failing to provide opportunities and self worth for these folk.

[Manic Impressive]

So you're saying they have to become Independent (against the will of the vast majority who vote for either Union with the UK or Rep. Ireland, I'm not even sure there are any pro-Independence parties just now, other than the national front) - to decide if they want to be Independent or not? I'm sorry I don't understand that. That's my personal opinion, lucky I don't follow any party lines.


Okay so are the Garda legitimate targets, as the Republic of Ireland is also a Capitalist nation? If so then why is it that the 32 county socialist movement concentrates all of its aggression on the 'occupied' six counties, which incidentally never were united and ruled by Dublin. Last time I checked the Republic never voted for Sinn fein either. Is it because, as I somewhat suspect, the IRA is more concerned with ideas of nationalism than socialism?See here's what you don't seem to get I don't support any reformist parties. The garda are not targets in an anti imperialist conflict because they are not the imperialists :rolleyes: but the police are legitimate targets for any oppressed people of any country.



Whilst these allegations are shocking if true, I take issue with your wording that this is anti catholic discrimination. First of all the article makes no mention of catholics or protestants, loyalist or republicans, and as I said before experiences are similar on both sides. My support is not for the police but the people of n.i, ALL the people. Second this is not to do with their politics but their actions as IRA members who killed people, to slap them across the face is absolutely wrong and a crime in the UK but lets keep things in some sort of perspective. "if true" lol

So far the court of appeal in Belfast has heard 26 cases referred by the commission, and has overturned convictions in 24 of those. Solicitors in Belfast and Derry say they believe many more people will be applying to the commission in the near future.
I don't doubt that working class protestants are also treated badly by the police, that would be because they are POLICE. But they do not systemically target protestants the way they target catholics. I'm still awaiting any of your proof that things have dramatically changed.


Another demented thread where people reveal their nationalism is getting underway. Stuff like this happens because a few lunatics cannot accept that most people do not want Sectarian conflict to rage up over and over again and seek the thrill of doing this kind of thing regardless.

As for the wider issue of the Northern Ireland problem, I know some people here are determined not to see sense, but let's try to strip the nationalism away. There are many good arguments why Ireland should be united. Apart from anything else having two separate administrative structures on one relatively small island is pretty bizarre. What is not a good argument is rubbish about Ireland "naturally" being one nation, claims that Britain is inherently foreign or by far the worst claims that partition is an injustice on the Republic of Ireland which are essentially irredentist arguments.

The reason that these do not work is first of all leftists should not be getting into rubbish about nationhood but even leaving that aside it is difficult to argue that Ireland is indivisible given it has a ninety year history of division. Partition didn't make much sense at the time, but when has drawing borders made much sense? And given the history of Europe in the twentieth century, those boarders are pretty long standing compared to many others.

Further Britain cannot be considered foreign while a majority of people in Northern Ireland consider themselves British. Nor on a related note can one claim British oppression separate from the general injustices of the British state throughout the UK. Certainly they did exist (though much of the worst excesses came from Unionists in Northern Ireland rather than from London) but Northern Ireland is being treated much more like other parts of the UK now. And of course I hope I don't have to explain why Irredentism is unacceptable.

As it happens I believe Ireland should be United, but arguments that that should be so based upon appeals to historical narrative or nationalism or whatever are pathetic. Give it a rest.
I've read the thread through a few times now and I'm not sure who or what you are actually referring to? Perhaps this is why you didn't quote anyone?
I don't think Northern Ireland should stay part of the UK because I view it as British imperialism.

you don't seem to agree that the occupation of Northern Ireland is imperialism

Further Britain cannot be considered foreign while a majority of people in Northern Ireland consider themselves British. Nor on a related note can one claim British oppression separate from the general injustices of the British state throughout the UK. Certainly they did exist (though much of the worst excesses came from Unionists in Northern Ireland rather than from London) but Northern Ireland is being treated much more like other parts of the UK now.
So if you don't see it as imperialism why do you support the reunification of Ireland?

[Viet Minh]

That only really works if you forget that everything outside the Home Counties is treated like a conveniently nearby colony.

Then take it up with the devolved parliaments. Or is it easier just to 'blame the English bastards' as we do for everything from council tax to bad weather?


I agree. Ex-loyalist prisoners have been treated like shit by the British state upon their release. A lot of them were manipulated by security forces to engage in a sectarian conflict, now many are suffering from depression, looked down on in society and can't get a job. Just left to rot after been used by the state. The common enemy that we should all unite against is capitalism and to a certain extent, British imperialism, that has delivered nothing for those loyalist prisoners -- But they do say 'freedom is a state of mind' ......

The enemy is not Britain or Ireland or even capitalism, at the moment the threat comes from extremists of either side. People arbitrarily call themselves Irish or English but if they were born a street away would be on 'the other side'.


loyal, it's no coincidence or conspiracy that loyalists were involved in more controversial and more unsolved murders than republicans were, especially with the fact that there was often collusion with the British state. What we see now is British agents and loyalist super-grasses coming forward with evidence.

The loyalists tended to assasinate known IRA members, sometimes the British State colluded with that, on other occasions they fed false information. It was the british Intelligence which actually prevented the murder of Gerry Adams by giving a false location, I don't know why I guess 'better the devil you know' or 'keep your enemies closer' or something. There was also collusion between IRA and Garda, and the Irish Government (who were formed from ex-IRA volunteers). The border attacks were completely unchallenged by the republic. Of course the British did bad things but to some extent I think Republcians actively seek them out as an excuse for their actions rather than actually defending their rights as they arguably did initially.


Bad shit happened in the past, but loyalists aren't very active in paramilitary activity anymore, but modern day internment still occurs, moreso on Irish republicans as they would be more active.

Loyalists are far too busy killing each other now to care about Republicans, its a long-runing joke the irony of us being called 'Unionist'!


Recent events include, last week it was revealed that a prison screw planted a note containing personal details of a former prison governor in the cell of an Irish republican (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-12887492). Also, The four charged, and interned, in connection with the killing of the two British army soldiers at Massereene Barracks 2 years ago and the shooting of PC Steven Carrol are fighting to have the charges dropped after it has emerged that police falsified evidence and very conveniently lost some evidence and apparent trackers on the getaway cars supposedly used. You can read about Colin Duffy's (one of those arrested in connection to the deaths of the two Brits) case at this site: http://friendsofcolinduffy.com/default.aspx

I'll check it later I don't know much about the situation. The massareene killings were the RIRA, and steven carroll the CIRA though right?


For definite the vast majority of both communities are against violence. But when you have the shambles that is Stormont and the circus politics that does not deliver anything, then people become totally disillusioned. The ruling elite are happy for these sectarian squabbles to continue, and that includes Sinn Fein and the DUP who are the two main opposing parties as this keeps them in power and the British government knows that a divided community keeps the failed state continuing.

The British Government is not quite the shady masonic queen-worshipping thing I suspect you view it as, Tony Bliar for instance was of Irish Republican and Catholic descent, John Reid is also of a very staunchly republcian background. As for failed state do you care to expand? Britain has done a lot of nasty shit in its history and continues to do so but in spite of that, or because of that, it does very well financially, if thats what you mean?
And the DUP and Sinn Fein are not working together and asking for peace in order to divide the community, far from it.


Well the groups get their information from the community and then do their own 'investigation'. Very rarely has it ever been a case of mistaken identity. The main punishments are either getting the culprits to come forward and apologise to issuing threats -- failing that -- baseball bat attacks, kneecappings or two to the ankles. It might sound barbaric, but there is support for it, especially seeing as the PSNI/RUC are totally unreliable when it comes to policing working class communities and have often used anti-social elements as informers so these crims get a lighter punishment/sentence from the state then they are released back into their areas again to commit more crimes and become eyes and ears against any republican activity.

So if the IRA kneecaps a kid for joyriding its okay but if the RUC slaps an IRA prisoner its opression?


Yeah them fucking hoods are everywhere. I'd say their existence is more down to the lack of employment in society which drives them to drug use and criminality. Then there are those who use punishment shootings as a badge of honour and as a symbol of rebellion. So once again, the capitalist system is failing to provide opportunities and self worth for these folk.

I'll agree in that 'chav' culture is widespread across the UK and is symptomatic of poverty and social frustration, but their hatred of the paramilitaries is justified, at least justify their hatred of the UDA ffs! :lol:

[Tim Finnegan]

Then take it up with the devolved parliaments. Or is it easier just to 'blame the English bastards' as we do for everything from council tax to bad weather?
You are aware the Home Counties excludes most of England, aren't you? As someone who spent a good portion of their early life in Weirside, I'm well aware that most of England has received quite a similar buggering to that which Scotland, Ireland and Wales received.

[Viet Minh]

That's my personal opinion, lucky I don't follow any party lines.

Yes you do, whether you know it or not you seem to agree with Republican Sinn Fein, who are a minority even with Republican communities.


See here's what you don't seem to get I don't support any reformist parties. The garda are not targets in an anti imperialist conflict because they are not the imperialists :rolleyes: but the police are legitimate targets for any oppressed people of any country.

All Statists are Imperialists. Wasn't there some part of Ireland that wanted Independence? Protestants in the Republic of Ireland have been opressed, so its cool if they just go out and kill some garda? :cool:


"if true" lol

Yes, if true. The article says these are allegations, of course you immediately believe every single one of them because they suit your agenda, which is apparently for Catholics to be persecuted. They probably are true but you don't even care about the people involved, you just see them as potential propaganda.


I don't doubt that working class protestants are also treated badly by the police, that would be because they are POLICE. But they do not systemically target protestants the way they target catholics. I'm still awaiting any of your proof that things have dramatically changed.

Its you alleging otherwise, so burden of proof is on you. I have actually said before that the RUC probably did target republicans more than loyalists during the IRA campaigns, its because generally speaking the IRA were bombing civilians indiscriminately (including Catholics) wheras initially at least the loyalist paramilitaries were targetting suspected IRA members. Which is also wrong of course.

Question: who killed more Catholics, the 'British' Police and Army, or the IRA?


I've read the thread through a few times now and I'm not sure who or what you are actually referring to? Perhaps this is why you didn't quote anyone?
I don't think Northern Ireland should stay part of the UK because I view it as British imperialism.

I know you weren't talking to me but out of curiosity how do you define 'Imperialism'? To me it means using violence and force to take control of an region against the will of its people, or the majority of its people.

[Viet Minh]

You are aware the Home Counties excludes most of England, aren't you? As someone who spent a good portion of their early life in Wearside, I'm well aware that most of England has received quite a similar buggering to that which Scotland, Ireland and Wales received.

Yes I know the geography of the home counties. People in Glasgow think everyone in Edinburgh has it easy, people in Scotland think people in England have it easy, people in Northern england think southerners have it easy, people in south west england think the south easterners have it easy, people in south london think people in hackney have it easy, people in Palestine think people in the UK have it easy, refugees from all over the World die trying to get into this country. Its far from perfect, but there IS the opportunity now to change it from within, and that the key to progress, not guns and bombs.

[Tim Finnegan]

Yes I know the geography of the home counties. People in Glasgow think everyone in Edinburgh has it easy, people in Scotland think people in England have it easy, people in Northern england think southerners have it easy, people in south west england think the south easterners have it easy, people in south london think people in hackney have it easy, people in Palestine think people in the UK have it easy, refugees from all over the World die trying to get into this country.
I think it's unfair to dismiss observations of regional preferencing in this fashion. One can recognise the fact of poverty in the South-East of England while simultaneously suggesting that the UK is run for and by a bourgeois based primarily in the South-East of England, and that this has material ramifications.

[ComradeMan]

I don't know so much about the intricacies of this rather Un-United Kingdom and Ireland- but most nations lament that the capital city or major financial "capital" tends to suck resources and dominate. In the UK I see it as being London and the South Eastern area (of course there are poor parts of London) but in France they say the same about Paris and the Ile-de-France and in Italy we have the Milan-Turin area and Roma "ladrona" (thief) etc. I have heard Spanish people grumble about Madrid and Castille and so on...

[Viet Minh]

I think it's unfair to dismiss observations of regional preferencing in this fashion. One can recognise the fact of poverty in the South-East of England while simultaneously suggesting that the UK is run for and by a bourgeois based primarily in the South-East of England, and that this has material ramifications.

I'm not dismissing them entirely, there are major issues to be dealt with such as huge discrepancies in healthcare and other services from region to region, but I disagree with these issues being oftimes misrepresented to suit political agendas, for example in Scotland the general nationalist perception is of 'us' being ruled by england when in fact the UK has had a higher proportion of Scottish Prime Ministers than English (per head of population). Because of our more rural infrastructure more money is spent on maintaining Scottish roads overall (although you would never know it driving around Glasgow!). We must of course tackle inequality wherever we find it, but thats very different from playing politics with peoples lives.
The point essentially is its a class struggle, not an ethnic or national one.

[Viet Minh]

I don't know so much about the intricacies of this rather Un-United Kingdom and Ireland- but most nations lament that the capital city or major financial "capital" tends to suck resources and dominate. In the UK I see it as being London and the South Eastern area (of course there are poor parts of London) but in France they say the same about Paris and the Ile-de-France and in Italy we have the Milan-Turin area and Roma "ladrona" (thief) etc. I have heard Spanish people grumble about Madrid and Castille and so on...

So true! Its an amazing coincidence that in any capitalist country wherever you find the base of power you find around it areas of wealth and privilege, usually within a 30-40 min drive away. Its most remarkable here in Scotland, where the new Parliament is in Holyrood the area of Dumbiedykes which is a (relatively) poor area has had a wonderful new facelift, bad tenants evicted, local services improved..

[RedSquare]

It's clear that those behind this attack have little support, little capability, and little political options to offer. It is an unnecessary attack which claimed the life of a young man, and does nothing to progress either the struggle for self-determination in Ireland nor to progress the struggle of the Irish working class.

[Tim Finnegan]

I'm not dismissing them entirely, there are major issues to be dealt with such as huge discrepancies in healthcare and other services from region to region, but I disagree with these issues being oftimes misrepresented to suit political agendas, for example in Scotland the general nationalist perception is of 'us' being ruled by england when in fact the UK has had a higher proportion of Scottish Prime Ministers than English (per head of population). Because of our more rural infrastructure more money is spent on maintaining Scottish roads overall (although you would never know it driving around Glasgow!). We must of course tackle inequality wherever we find it, but thats very different from playing politics with peoples lives.
The point essentially is its a class struggle, not an ethnic or national one.
That much I agree with, certainly. Regional inequality is an expression of class inequality, specifically, the disposal of profits appropriated across the Isles to a disproportionate degree in one region. To reduce it down to nationalistic rivalry, as the SNP try to do, is misleading- it's a call not for the end of exploitation, for its localisation.

[Demogorgon]

I've read the thread through a few times now and I'm not sure who or what you are actually referring to? Perhaps this is why you didn't quote anyone?
I don't think Northern Ireland should stay part of the UK because I view it as British imperialism.

you don't seem to agree that the occupation of Northern Ireland is imperialism

So if you don't see it as imperialism why do you support the reunification of Ireland?
It is hard to see how it can be imperialism today. It just doesn't match up. For a start you don't get imperialism between highly developed first world countries. Moreover if the UK were really carrying out an act of imperialism it would be gaining from it, but Northern Ireland is not providing economic benefit to the UK. Indeed it is very expensive to keep up and there is absolutely nothing there for British companies to exploit that they couldn't exploit if it was part of Ireland. The situation there is simply "stuck". A series of events in Northern Ireland has led to this situation and it is extraordinarily difficult to change it.

As for why I support a United Ireland when I don't see it as imperialism. Well the world is a tad more complex than "imperialism And "alright". Partition has been bad for Northern Ireland and indeed bad for the rest of Britain. Whether it has been bad for the rest of Ireland is an open question, it was certainly bad in the beginning , but more recently I doubt it has made much difference, at the very least however it hasn't been good for it. It would simply be beneficial for it to happen. It is for the same reason I think Scotland should be independent. I do not believe Scotland is oppressed and I certainly don't believe imperialism is at play, but I do believe that Scotland's different political preferences makes political union ridiculous.

[RATM-Eubie]

I think this is the wrong way to gain the will of the people.

[Demogorgon]

I think this is the wrong way to gain the will of the people.
I sincerely doubt they care about that. More than likely they are hoping to provoke counter atacks so that they can live out their fantasies of being "heroic freedom fighters".

I am reminded of a member we had here a while ago defending his organisation, the IRSP if I remember correctly making statements like "we reserve the right to raise funds through robberies" and "we don't need the permission of the working class [to do whatever was discussed]". What arrogance!