What makes a "model minority"?

[727Goon]

What are the socio economic factors that make a "model minority" or a minority that is disproportionately succesful? I understand that some groups like many Asian immigrants who come to America tend to be more upper class in their country, but why are Jewish people disproportionately succesful in America since many came here as dirt poor working class imigrants? I cant think of other groups who generally came to America poor and became succesful at the moment but I'm wondering what the socio economic factors that make a model minority are from a materialist point of view.

[Queercommie Girl]

What are the socio economic factors that make a "model minority" or a minority that is disproportionately succesful? I understand that some groups like many Asian immigrants who come to America tend to be more upper class in their country, but why are Jewish people disproportionately succesful in America since many came here as dirt poor working class imigrants? I cant think of other groups who generally came to America poor and became succesful at the moment but I'm wondering what the socio economic factors that make a model minority are from a materialist point of view.

The thing is, to treat "Asian Americans" (which is itself a ridiculously artificial category) as a "model minority" as a whole is simply a ridiculous myth. It's simply ignoring the plight of poor Asian immigrants, like those from poor rural areas of China as opposed to urban areas (in China there is a "caste system" of urban Chinese and rural Chinese), who are completely uneducated, who are not only discriminated against by whites but also viciously exploited by their own fellow Chinese, who are treated terribly by the FBI as it tries to round up illegal immigrants...etc.

Rich Asian immigrants in the West may be more like Jews, but poor Asian immigrants and illegal immigrants in the West are much more like immigrants from Mexico.

For Asians, the entire "model minority" category is generally unhelpful. It causes people (especially the richer Asians themselves) to simply ignore the plight of the poor immigrant Asian workers, which from a Marxist perspective is simply unacceptable.

For Marxists, to treat a entire "group of people" (and "Asian" is not even a single ethnic group or even a related association of ethnic groups, but a purely artificial and geographical category) in an essentialist manner is hilariously ridiculous, because it is ignoring completely the deep class divisions (as well as ethnic divisions, e.g. between Chinese and Japanese) within such groups. As I said, the most vicious exploiters of some poor Chinese immigrants are not whites, but other richer ethnic Chinese people. To put "ethnic/racial division" above class division is a fundamental mistake, from a Marxist point of view.

[Fulanito de Tal]

I would like to point out that in this thread, the factor used to measure amount of oppression is access to financial resources.

A group can be rich and still discriminated against.

[¿Que?]

I think it's important to note that racism against Asians operates at other levels. Not every group that is discriminated against responds the same or is affected the same. Currently, for example, there is a gender gap in Asian interracial marriage rates int he US with men falling behind the women. This means that Asian men are having a more difficult time finding wives. So as you can see, being a "model minority" is not without its problems.

Personally, I think the term is insulting, not just to other race/ethnicities, but also to the so called model minorities. To me, it seems like it justifies the typical response by the establishment anytime a minority group complains about racism, which is to dismiss those complaints as unfounded.

[Queercommie Girl]

I think it's important to note that racism against Asians operates at other levels. Not every group that is discriminated against responds the same or is affected the same. Currently, for example, there is a gender gap in Asian interracial marriage rates int he US with men falling behind the women. This means that Asian men are having a more difficult time finding wives. So as you can see, being a "model minority" is not without its problems.

Personally, I think the term is insulting, not just to other race/ethnicities, but also to the so called model minorities. To me, it seems like it justifies the typical response by the establishment anytime a minority group complains about racism, which is to dismiss those complaints as unfounded.

I wouldn't say the interracial marriage gap is a primary problem for Asians. If you go to some Asian American forums that's all the Asian guys there whine about all the time. But if you look at their class basis, nearly all of them are middle class. And interestingly poor Chinese immigrant coolies seem to have no problem with this at all, and actually poor immigrant coolie men seem to date white women at a higher rate than richer Asians. Even one of the Chinese worker leaders who was convicted for the cockle picking incident in Britain in 2004 had a white girlfriend.

Now if you look at the inter-ethnic marriage rates between Northern Europeans and Southern Europeans for instance, you will find that more Northern European men marry Southern European women than the other way around, yet no-one ever complains about this. Also, don't you think the whole thing is somewhat sexist, that somehow it's better for Asians if Asian men marry white women than if Asian women marry white men, as if men are intrinsically worth more than women?

I think the biggest problems facing Asians in the West are problems faced by poor immigrant coolies from poor areas such as the rural areas of China, these people are similar to immigrants from Mexico, some of them are actually illegal immigrants, and they are regularly treated like dirt by whites and richer Asians alike. Go to your local China Town and think about all the Asian workers who slave there. Not a single one of them has any kind of Trade Union representation, and some are even bullied by the Chinese mafia.

Middle-class immigrants from richer areas of Asia don't face systematic discrimination to the same extent as these poor immigrant coolies. For Marxists, we must focus more on these poor Asian coolies, rather than some middle-class university kid who can't find a girlfriend.

Your point about "racism against Asians operating at other levels" is simply wrong, because poorer Asian people face exactly the same kind of problems as Blacks and Hispanics. Rich Asian professionals and Asian businessmen cannot represent the Asian immigrant community.

[727Goon]

I would like to point out that in this thread, the factor used to measure amount of oppression is access to financial resources.

A group can be rich and still discriminated against.

I'm not saying there's not, I'm just wondering why some groups are more financially successful even though they came from a poor background. I'm especially curious about the Jews since from everything I've read they came to America generally with nothing. Maybe thinking that Jews are disproportionately successful is just s stereotype like (I guess) saying Asians are and if it is my bad. To be honest I don't know much about either group.

[gorillafuck]

Jews aren't actually richer, that's a myth coming from that whole "Jewish bankers run the financial system" propaganda.

[¿Que?]

I wouldn't say the interracial marriage gap is a primary problem for Asians. If you go to some Asian American forums that's all the Asian guys there whine about all the time. But if you look at their class basis, nearly all of them are middle class. And interestingly poor Chinese immigrant coolies seem to have no problem with this at all, and actually poor immigrant coolie men seem to date white women at a higher rate than richer Asians. Even one of the Chinese worker leaders who was convicted for the cockle picking incident in Britain in 2004 had a white girlfriend.
The interracial marriage gap also affects black women too. Asian men and black women show the largest disparity with their female and male counterparts with respect to marriage rates. However, it is important to note that I am referring specifically to rates derived from the US census, so I can't really speak to the situation in Britain or any other country for that matter. I haven't seen those figures.

Here is an article discussing the gender gap in marriage rates:
http://www.modelminority.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=365:interracial-marriage-gender-gap-grows-&catid=37:dating&Itemid=56

And here are the actual census figures:
http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/phc-t19/tab01.pdf
Please notice these are growing trends last I checked, and thus, seeing as the 2010 census has recently been completed, the numbers are likely more pronounced today.

Two things. First, I would like to see some sources as to the lack of a marriage gap among poorer Chinese immigrants (preferably in the US, so the comparison is more valid). Second, while it is possible to disaggregate data based on SES, when aggregated, the numbers do show a marriage gap, and I think it is inaccurate to say, well this only happens to rich middle class Asians, and therefore this is not an example of racism. I'll elaborate on this point more in a little, but it sounds to me like you're saying racism is irrelevant if your rich or middle class. I think I shouldn't have to point out the obvious flaw in this line of reasoning.


Now if you look at the inter-ethnic marriage rates between Northern Europeans and Southern Europeans for instance, you will find that more Northern European men marry Southern European women than the other way around, yet no-one ever complains about this. Also, don't you think the whole thing is somewhat sexist, that somehow it's better for Asians if Asian men marry white women than if Asian women marry white men, as if men are intrinsically worth more than women?
Except that I didn't imply that at all, let alone say it. Marriage gaps show unequal treatment between races in the specific area of intimacy and relationships. Do you fault black women for complaining of the same problem (the fact that black men marry white women at higher rates than the opposite). The simple fact is white men exoticize Asian women, and thus they are considered by men high value mates for dating and marriage. The same does not hold true for Asian men, who are devalued as dating partners through stereotypes such as Asian men have small penises, Asian men lack potency, and other stereotypes that diminish Asian masculinity. Now keep in mind, I am well aware of the problematic nature of masculinity in general, however, white male masculinity is celebrated in Western culture, whereas Asian masculinity is treated as odd, alien or unnatural. This is racism, pure and simple.


I think the biggest problems facing Asians in the West are problems faced by poor immigrant coolies from poor areas such as the rural areas of China, these people are similar to immigrants from Mexico, some of them are actually illegal immigrants, and they are regularly treated like dirt by whites and richer Asians alike. Go to your local China Town and think about all the Asian workers who slave there. Not a single one of them has any kind of Trade Union representation, and some are even bullied by the Chinese mafia.

That's fine, and that's a problem. However, races and classes are pitted against each other in capitalism all the time. White workers often receive better treatment in the labor market than people of color, and let's not forget the exclusionary treatment of immigrants by Unions in the past. Does this mean that white workers are not exploited. Of course not, but they do gain advantage by virtue of their race. In the same manner, rich and middle class Asian receive a certain prvilege in society by virtue of their SES, but is this evidence that they do not experience racism. Of course not.


Middle-class immigrants from richer areas of Asia don't face systematic discrimination to the same extent as these poor immigrant coolies. For Marxists, we must focus more on these poor Asian coolies, rather than some middle-class university kid who can't find a girlfriend.
That's fine, but they do face discrimination, particularly at predominantly white universities, Asians report facing discriminatory actions and language at greater rates than whites. Maybe we should focus more on poor immigrant Asians, but your characterization of a middle class asian kid who can't find a girlfriend is insensitive and racist.


Your point about "racism against Asians operating at other levels" is simply wrong, because poorer Asian people face exactly the same kind of problems as Blacks and Hispanics. Rich Asian professionals and Asian businessmen cannot represent the Asian immigrant community.
Wrong. You can't even say black and Latino racism operates at the same level. There are myriad differences between the racism Latinos face and that of Blacks. The category "people of color" is analytically useful, but you have to be cautious with this type of overarching categorization of everything not white, mainly because there is so much heterogeneity in the experiences of people of color within the category, and within sub categories like Latino and black.

[Fulanito de Tal]

A problem that affects Asian American individuals is that their individuality is taken away. Chris is not seen as Chris, but seen as "ching chong". This causes social alienation for the person which may have unfavorable effects to a person's psychosocial functioning and quality of life.

A problem that affects Asian American families, along with many immigrant families, is a clash between the local dominant culture of the community they reside in and their own. The children begin to adopt the individualistic values of the dominant US culture and they manifest at home. The parents, holding more collectivist values, are upset by the child's "misbehavior" and a family problem may pursue.

[Queercommie Girl]

The interracial marriage gap also affects black women too. Asian men and black women show the largest disparity with their female and male counterparts with respect to marriage rates. However, it is important to note that I am referring specifically to rates derived from the US census, so I can't really speak to the situation in Britain or any other country for that matter. I haven't seen those figures.


I'm aware of that. But it is interesting that Asian men are not going after Black women. It is sad that many Asian men still "worship" the image of "white femininity", despite the disadvantage they have in dating white women. Many Asians in fact have racist views against Blacks.



I think it is inaccurate to say, well this only happens to rich middle class Asians, and therefore this is not an example of racism.
I didn't say it's not related to racism against Asians, only that it is certainly not the primary issue.

Firstly, from a purely objective and theoretical point of view, the simple existence of a dating/marriage disparity does not necessarily imply any kind of racism.

However, I agree that in the case of Asians, racism is almost certainly involved. But making this into a primary issue is simply not taking a working class or Marxist perspective.

Sorry, but unable to find a wife is never fatal. Unable to find a job or means of livelihood, then one could literally starve to death. That's the difference.



but it sounds to me like you're saying racism is irrelevant if your rich or middle class. I think I shouldn't have to point out the obvious flaw in this line of reasoning.
I didn't say that, but you should realise that I am a Marxist-Leninist, not a liberal anti-racist. I certainly will not consider the racism experienced by rich Asians to be a very important issue, just like I don't consider the homophobia experienced by rich gay men to be a very important issue. I don't believe in "universal human rights" completely independent of class. I am literally biased in favour of the working class at all times, unconditionally.

In this case it's specially so since some of the most vicious exploiters of poor immigrant Asian labour are ethnic Asian businessmen.



Except that I didn't imply that at all, let alone say it. Marriage gaps show unequal treatment between races in the specific area of intimacy and relationships.
Not automatically in principle. In the case of Asians and Blacks racism is mostly definitely involved, but this is not something that can be deduced simply from the dating/marriage gap alone.

As I said, dating/marriage disparities exist among many different ethnic groups across the whole world, are you going to say all of them are due to racism of some kind?



The simple fact is white men exoticize Asian women, and thus they are considered by men high value mates for dating and marriage.
I'm aware of this fact, in fact I mentioned this fact myself in another thread.

However, it is a mistake to think that Asian women are really valued higher simply because they are more fetishised as exotic sex objects. Sexual attraction and real respect are two very different things. Compared with white women, Asian women are still disadvantaged in almost every field, e.g. employment.

This is another problem with focussing too much on this dating/marriage disparity issue. It creates the myth that only Asian men face racism, and Asian women don't, which is ridiculous.

Similarly, just because Black men don't face the same kind of problem as Black women in the dating field, doesn't mean Black men aren't severely discriminated against in a white-dominated society too.



The same does not hold true for Asian men, who are devalued as dating partners through stereotypes such as Asian men have small penises, Asian men lack potency, and other stereotypes that diminish Asian masculinity. Now keep in mind, I am well aware of the problematic nature of masculinity in general, however, white male masculinity is celebrated in Western culture, whereas Asian masculinity is treated as odd, alien or unnatural. This is racism, pure and simple.
Firstly I don't think there is a singular "white masculinity", just as there is no such thing as a "white race".

Secondly, similarly there is no such thing as an "Asian race" either. Are Central Asians and South Asians considered "Asian" too? South Asians (e.g. Indians) are also a "model minority" in the US socio-economically speaking, and South Asian men are also disadvantaged to some extent in the dating field. However, Central Asians (much fewer in number) are completely different, because they are certainly not a model minority, and stereotypically Central Asians are not really considered to be "less masculine" (though still considered to be "barbaric" to some extent), even though objectively speaking Central Asians are racially much closer to East Asians than South Asians are.

The problem is that the racial categories of "white" and "Asian" are artificial social constructions, not intrinsically objective categories like "working class" and "capitalist class". It is useful to apply post-modernist post-structuralism to racial categories.

There is no such thing as "white" or "Asian" "unity" on a racial basis.

Lastly, as someone who is very serious about LGBTQ rights, I would indeed say the biggest problem is simply the very notion of "masculinity" in Western capitalist culture, which is intrinsically sexist and queerphobic, rather than that Asian men, or men of other races, do not match up to the "white standard".

I'm looking forward to smash this "standard" in a revolutionary way, this is another reason that unlike pro-capitalist Asians, I don't consider this issue to be primary.



That's fine, and that's a problem. However, races and classes are pitted against each other in capitalism all the time. White workers often receive better treatment in the labor market than people of color, and let's not forget the exclusionary treatment of immigrants by Unions in the past. Does this mean that white workers are not exploited. Of course not, but they do gain advantage by virtue of their race. In the same manner, rich and middle class Asian receive a certain prvilege in society by virtue of their SES, but is this evidence that they do not experience racism. Of course not.
I don't disagree, but for Marxist-Leninists class issues are primary and override race issues, as a matter of ideological principle.

Of course there is racism among the working class too, but mostly as a result of the actions and ideas of the elite layers of the working class, such as the labour aristocracy or the right-wing trade union bureaucracy, or even more so the actions of the capitalist governments themselves.

In Britain a few decades ago there was a whole sub-district in Liverpool where poor Chinese sailors settled and married local white women, but the British capitalist government forcefully deported these Chinese sailors back to China. Even to this day some of their wives and kids found it difficult to see their husbands and fathers.

Working class racism is rarely something that is "intrinsic" to the working class itself.



That's fine, but they do face discrimination, particularly at predominantly white universities, Asians report facing discriminatory actions and language at greater rates than whites. Maybe we should focus more on poor immigrant Asians, but your characterization of a middle class asian kid who can't find a girlfriend is insensitive and racist.
Ha. It's funny because guess what friend, I'm from such a background myself. I am Chinese and I studied at the University of Cambridge in England, one of the best in the world. I speak against my fellow "middle class Asian kids" because I am from such a background myself, and I know for a fact that some of them exaggerate this issue too much. They worry about this "dating disparity" much more than the plight of poor Asian immigrants, or the actions of US imperialism in the Third World. It's over the top.

Also, many of these "Asian kids" have queerphobic and even anti-communist views. I used to visit the Asian American forum Model Minority quite often (the old forum no longer exists today, it has been deleted), and some people there were saying that "communism is a white man's conspiracy" or some rubbish like that. And after knowing I'm queer and wish to change sex from male to female, some of them began to say bad things about me and calling me a "traitor to the Asian race and the Asian male gender". :rolleyes:

Talk about being "insensitive"!

Some also have sexist views, and blame Asian women for being "whores", rather than White men, for the disparity. They just think dating disparity against Asian men is the "greatest injustice in the universe", much more than the US genocides in Vietnam and Iraq, much more than the FBI rounding up illegal Chinese immigrants, much more than the obscene economic inequality we have under capitalism in general! Any scene of an Asian woman kissing or making love to a white man would cause them to feel the utmost indignation.



Wrong. You can't even say black and Latino racism operates at the same level. There are myriad differences between the racism Latinos face and that of Blacks. The category "people of color" is analytically useful, but you have to be cautious with this type of overarching categorization of everything not white, mainly because there is so much heterogeneity in the experiences of people of color within the category, and within sub categories like Latino and black.My point was that in a socio-economic sense, poor Asians, Blacks and Hispanics live in similar levels of poverty, and therefore some of the issues they face tend to be similar.

I don't agree with "racial reductionism". I don't believe racism is a natural phenomenon at all. Ultimately racism occurs due to the existence of socio-economic inequality and class society.

[Queercommie Girl]

I'm not saying there's not, I'm just wondering why some groups are more financially successful even though they came from a poor background. I'm especially curious about the Jews since from everything I've read they came to America generally with nothing. Maybe thinking that Jews are disproportionately successful is just s stereotype like (I guess) saying Asians are and if it is my bad. To be honest I don't know much about either group.

In the case of "Asians" (again I must stress it is an artificial socially constructed group, because there is no such thing as the "Asian race" in any objective sense), it definitely is a stereotype.

Firstly, even the richest Asians in America are far poorer than the richest whites and Jews. There is a "corporate ceiling" for all Asians, and Asians never reach more than a "middle management" position in American corporations on the whole.

Secondly, this kind of "model minority myth" is completely un-Marxist because it ignores the deep class divisions within Asian Americans. Actually of all the ethnic minority (non-white) groups in the US, Asians are the group with the greatest amount of internal inequality by far. There is a much bigger gap statistically speaking between the richest and the poorest Asians than between the richest and the poorest in other ethnic minority groups. While rich Asians are more like Jews socio-economically speaking, poor Asians are more like immigrants from Mexico. And indeed some of the most vicious exploiters of poor Asian immigrants are rich ethnic Asian businessmen. There is much less internal solidarity among Asians than among Blacks and Muslims. Asians much more readily sell out other Asians in order to gain favour with whites. So actually Asian Americans are a "model minority", not in the mainstream bourgeois sense, but in the Marxist sense of being a group of people that demonstrates most vividly that class divisions override racial and ethnic divisions.

Also, I think you should acquire more knowledge regarding issues relating to Asians. If you want other people to have solidarity with your minority group, then you should show solidarity with other minority groups too.

[Queercommie Girl]

Two things. First, I would like to see some sources as to the lack of a marriage gap among poorer Chinese immigrants (preferably in the US, so the comparison is more valid). Second, while it is possible to disaggregate data based on SES, when aggregated, the numbers do show a marriage gap, and I think it is inaccurate to say, well this only happens to rich middle class Asians, and therefore this is not an example of racism.


Poorer Asian immigrants don't necessarily have a smaller dating/marriage gap, but it is a fact that they very rarely complain about it. Complaining very explicitly about the dating issue is indeed a middle class affair, this obviously doesn't make it "invalid", since it's wrong to think that middle class people can't be progressive or can't be socialists. (I'm from a middle class student background myself) But objectively that is the class basis of this matter. Poor immigrants from Asia worry more about how to make their ends meet and whether or not they would be deported back to their home country by the FBI, than any matter related to dating and marriage.

[Fulanito de Tal]

I'm starting to think that the model minority concept came up to cause friction between marginalized ethnicities. In reaction to that, there are populations that are more marginalized than others, but that should not cause us to fight each other. The amount of tasks we can effectively conduct at a time is finite. The more we focus on one thing, the less we focus on others. So if we fight over who is the most oppressed group, we spend resources that could be used against the real enemy. We should unite in solidarity against the oppression pushed by the dominant culture. We are all in the same boat, and as long as we keep fighting each other, the boat is going to sink with all of us on it.

[727Goon]

In the case of "Asians" (again I must stress it is an artificial socially constructed group, because there is no such thing as the "Asian race" in any objective sense), it definitely is a stereotype.

Firstly, even the richest Asians in America are far poorer than the richest whites and Jews. There is a "corporate ceiling" for all Asians, and Asians never reach more than a "middle management" position in American corporations on the whole.

Secondly, this kind of "model minority myth" is completely un-Marxist because it ignores the deep class divisions within Asian Americans. Actually of all the ethnic minority (non-white) groups in the US, Asians are the group with the greatest amount of internal inequality by far. There is a much bigger gap statistically speaking between the richest and the poorest Asians than between the richest and the poorest in other ethnic minority groups. While rich Asians are more like Jews socio-economically speaking, poor Asians are more like immigrants from Mexico. And indeed some of the most vicious exploiters of poor Asian immigrants are rich ethnic Asian businessmen. There is much less internal solidarity among Asians than among Blacks and Muslims. Asians much more readily sell out other Asians in order to gain favour with whites. So actually Asian Americans are a "model minority", not in the mainstream bourgeois sense, but in the Marxist sense of being a group of people that demonstrates most vividly that class divisions override racial and ethnic divisions.

Also, I think you should acquire more knowledge regarding issues relating to Asians. If you want other people to have solidarity with your minority group, then you should show solidarity with other minority groups too.

Bro race is an artificial social construct in the first place. Anyways I thought you said that the idea that Jews were disproportionately rich like white people are was an anti semetic stereotype.

[Queercommie Girl]

Bro race is an artificial social construct in the first place. Anyways I thought you said that the idea that Jews were disproportionately rich like white people are was an anti semetic stereotype.

Jews are certainly not like Asians. The richest Jews in America are much wealthier than the richest Asians, while there is no equivalent to the poor Asian immigrants from countries like China and Vietnam in the Jewish community.

Jews objectively would fit the "model minority" stereotype much better than Asians, not that I intrinsically support such a concept.