Zapatista Youths Reconsider Capitalism

[Bud Struggle]

It seems the children of the Zapatistas are opting for Capitalism even if it's difficult.

http://www.theworld.org/2011/04/zapatista-youths-reconsider-capitalism/

Maybe the Zapatista counter Revolution has begun?

[Ele'ill]

It doesn't sound like they're really doing all that well turning towards capitalism there. Perhaps this also highlights a problem with the Zapatista's isolation. The article basically screams 'organize and outreach organize and outreach'.

[Octavian]

It seems like a lot of countries consider capitalism as if it will term them into the USA and make them great. They fail to realize the USA only does so well from the vast resources it has and the ones it steals through imperialism.

[Bud Struggle]

It seems like a lot of countries consider capitalism as if it will term them into the USA and make them great. They fail to realize the USA only does so well from the vast resources it has and the ones it steals through imperialism.

No it's the people and the organization. America does well because it takes advantage (to a good extent) of the human resources it has.

Could it be better--sure. But over all it is successful because it knows what it wants--and that's money.


The Zapatistas don't quite know what they want.

[Revolution starts with U]

How convenient of you to leave out that 90% of the land in the US was outright stolen, that most of the wealth was gained through plunder. And even our business gains were gained by unscrupulous and interventionist businessmen.

Ya, americans love money. And if you leave out all the context, it's fucking great!.

Your rationalization, justifications, and apologetics are fucking disgusting.

[Bud Struggle]

How convenient of you to leave out that 90% of the land in the US was outright stolen, that most of the wealth was gained through plunder. And even our business gains were gained by unscrupulous and interventionist businessmen.

Ya, americans love money. And if you leave out all the context, it's fucking great!.

Your rationalization, justifications, and apologetics are fucking disgusting.

Calm down Comrade. 90% of exactly what land were stolen by the US? And those Aztecs--weren't THEY all about plunder?

[Edit] Rev--you are getting as Wacky as Gacky! :D

[The Red Next Door]

Calm down Comrade. 90% of exactly what land were stolen by the US? And those Aztecs--weren't THEY all about plunder?

[Edit] Rev--you are getting as Wacky as Gacky! :D
You are not our comrade, punk!

[Pretty Flaco]

Calm down Comrade. 90% of exactly what land were stolen by the US? And those Aztecs--weren't THEY all about plunder?

[Edit] Rev--you are getting as Wacky as Gacky! :D

Except most of the land that the US acquired during manifest destiny wasn't from the aztecs. I don't know enough about the history of the US in the late 1800s to know what contributed to it's rise in power, however. So I can't comment on that.

[ComradeMan]

Most of the land held by anyone was/is gained through force- i.e. ownership of land is theft.

[Revolution starts with U]

Calm down Comrade. 90% of exactly what land were stolen by the US? And those Aztecs--weren't THEY all about plunder?

[Edit] Rev--you are getting as Wacky as Gacky! :D

First, Aztec territory barely reached the current US, tho they did have cultural influences up here.
Second; almost all of the territory west of the mississippi was outright stolen through either force or trickery by the US government on behalf of the private citezenry. Most of the time it was private citizens stealing all this land, and the US government just trying to make it official so they could mediate.
Research; Nez Perce.
Third, does plundering people already plundered make plunder any better?


Most of the land held by anyone was/is gained through force- i.e. ownership of land is theft.
That too. :lol:

EDIT: I do use a lot of hyperbole and rhetoric, true. But like I've always said; if you don't want to be called an asshole... stop being an asshole!

[Viet Minh]

When the oil runs out, the economy collapses and the US isn't producing enough food to feed its citizens the agricultural communities can have the last laugh.

[Bud Struggle]

First, Aztec territory barely reached the current US, tho they did have cultural influences up here.
Second; almost all of the territory west of the mississippi was outright stolen through either force or trickery by the US government on behalf of the private citezenry. Most of the time it was private citizens stealing all this land, and the US government just trying to make it official so they could mediate.
Research; Nez Perce.
Third, does plundering people already plundered make plunder any better?


Research Commanche. Everyone steals land. What's the difference between a Commanche stealing land from an Apache or a white American?

[Viet Minh]

Research Commanche. Everyone steals land. What's the difference between a Commanche stealing land from an Apache or a white American?

Apaches didn't herd them into small reservations and force them to peak English for a start, but yeah basically I take your point. There was an intersting documentary showing that black africans or aborigines had gone to south amercia, and were killed off by the 'native americans' ancestors.

btw does anyoen have a map of what the Americas might look like if it wasn't for European colonialism, I've been looking for one forever.. Sorry to stray off topic! :blushing:
EDIT: Ignore that, google images has been my friend today! :)

[black magick hustla]

except the zapatistas were never an anticapitalist force. they were an indigenous right movement and they arose out of hellish conditions that some of us cannot even fathom. it was an exasperate attempt to roll back the attack of NAFTA on national capital, which included peasants who had to sell their shit in the market.

[Bud Struggle]

except the zapatistas were never an anticapitalist force. they were an indigenous right movement and they arose out of hellish conditions that some of us cannot even fathom. it was an exasperate attempt to roll back the attack of NAFTA on national capital, which included peasants who had to sell their shit in the market.

And that's why Communism has to be a worldwide Revolution--or it need not bother.

[Revolution starts with U]

Research Commanche. Everyone steals land. What's the difference between a Commanche stealing land from an Apache or a white American?
Nothing. That's the point. The fact that you consistently overlook that to go "rah rah america!" is the problem.


And that's why Communism has to be a worldwide Revolution--or it need not bother.
I agree with the first part, but not the latter.

[Ele'ill]

And that's why Communism has to be a worldwide Revolution

It is.

[Tim Finnegan]

Given that I bought some market-traded Zapatista coffee just the other day, I'm not sure if these youths are exceptional in their embrace of capitalism so much as they are more traditional (and, if it's not too harsh, more naive) in how they've gone about it.

The Zapatistas, even when they did flirt with anti-capitalist- hardly a foundation stone of the movement, as Maldoror says, however much we may wish it- it's always been with the acceptance that capitalism is, at this time, an inescapable fact of life, and that all that can be done is trying to make it work for you (or, to be more accurate, diminish the extent to which it works against you). These youths seem to have learned that much, they just don't quite understand the unpleasant realities that make their particularly attempt to take advantage of the market system a dead-end.

[RGacky3]

Research Commanche. Everyone steals land. What's the difference between a Commanche stealing land from an Apache or a white American?

The difference is you support one of them, we do not.

Your responsible for what YOU do. Saying other people do it does'nt justify shit.

As for the article, yeah some young people will choose a different life, i.e. move out and make some money, its difficult to prosper btw when you have a nation bent on your destrcution, the fact that people move from poor areas to less poor areas is not an argument against a system at all.

[Che a chara]

The Zapatista's are a peasant people. Of course there's going to those who will be attracted by the big lights and the possibility to make money on an individual basis. I don't know what the potential is for the self-modernisation of the Zapitista community which maybe expanded upon through a more pro-science and technological approach, without the hijacking from nefarious elements or a deviation from their ideals. but their community and anti-globalisation values are still an inspiration.

[ComradeMan]

except the zapatistas were never an anticapitalist force. they were an indigenous right movement and they arose out of hellish conditions that some of us cannot even fathom. it was an exasperate attempt to roll back the attack of NAFTA on national capital, which included peasants who had to sell their shit in the market.


Subcomandante Marcos: Sixth Declaration of the Selva Lacandona

3 - How We See the World

"...And capitalism also makes its wealth from plunder, or theft, because they take what they want from others, land, for example, and natural resources. So capitalism is a system where the robbers are free and they are admired and used as examples..."

Source (http://www.zcommunications.org/sixth-declaration-of-the-selva-lacandona-by-subcomandante-marcos)

[StockholmSyndrome]

I took a very interesting anthropology class on Chiapas. My professor had spent many years there building close relationships with the Zapatistas. There is a tendency on the left to want to idealize the Zapatistas as the exemplary anti-capitalist revolutionaries they would like them to be. True, their movement was a response to unfair land reforms caused by the government making concessions to foreign capital interests and privatizing their traditional ejido landholdings on behalf of the cattle and coffee export economy. The Lacandon rainforest is the most heavily deforested and economically disparate region in Mexico because of capitalism. But the Zapatistas are mainly concerned with an eclectic, non-ideological approach to developing their resources on their own terms without sacrificing community and democracy. Over the years they have created a unique experimental sort of social-capitalism. They know full well that unless there is a global democratic response to economic globalization, any small indigenous uprising such as theirs will be swallowed up like tears in the rain.

[black magick hustla]

i think its nauseating how some of you folks talk about this peasants as if they were helpless children "the illusion of modernization" blahblahblah.

the zapatistas had very little to do with the class struggle. there struggle was not a class one, but one of the peasants to fight for their space in the market. I am not going to condemn whatever they do, but definitely the world of the zapatistas is very different from my world.

[black magick hustla]

Subcomandante Marcos: Sixth Declaration of the Selva Lacandona

3 - How We See the World

"...And capitalism also makes its wealth from plunder, or theft, because they take what they want from others, land, for example, and natural resources. So capitalism is a system where the robbers are free and they are admired and used as examples..."

Source (http://www.zcommunications.org/sixth-declaration-of-the-selva-lacandona-by-subcomandante-marcos)
so what? the whole latin american left wing of capital is enamored with anticapitalist rhetoric. every fuckin president in latin america today talks shit about capitalism.

[black magick hustla]

i just read the article. i rather have the gritty cities than boring ass life in the countryside btw. fuck agrarian communes

[Amphictyonis]

China did the same. Industrialize under capitalism then implement actual socialism (well, China has yet to implement actual socialism). I think Marxian theory (in some/most cases) advocates a period of capitalism before socialism can actually take hold. In order for any part of Mexico to have industrial socialism there must be a global revolution- socialism was never meant to be the process where undeveloped nations/regions industrialize, that is suppose to be capitalism's duty. Even Venezuela should industrialize under capitalism before they make a serious effort towards communism. Even after a period of capitalism (in order to industrialize) they would need a global revolution (especially starting with advanced capitalist nations) in order for any future prospect of communism to be valid. In the end capitalism is shit but needs to be implemented in order for socialism to take hold.The only way Marx saw socialism taking hold in "backwards" or less developed nations/regions is if the advanced capitalist nations first went socialist.

[StockholmSyndrome]

the zapatistas had very little to do with the class struggle. there struggle was not a class one, but one of the peasants to fight for their space in the market.

That is a class struggle. It's just the kind people like you ignore because it doesn't conform to your version of how history should unfold.


i just read the article. i rather have the gritty cities than boring ass life in the countryside btw. fuck agrarian communes

I think it's nauseating how you spoiled hipster ultra-leftist types can have more blind faith in capitalism than most capitalists.

[black magick hustla]

That is a class struggle. It's just the kind people like you ignore because it doesn't conform to your version of how history should unfold.

lol. its a struggle for life essentially, but it is not class struggle. what is there in class struggle to struggle for space in the market, because the american bosses will outcompete you?




I think it's nauseating how you spoiled hipster ultra-leftist types can have more blind faith in capitalism than most capitalists.
i think its nauseating how you social democratic rats can't understand why people move out of the soul sucking agricultural communties (which are integrated in the world market btw), with all their parochialism and petty inter personal politics, to get a better life in the city.

[black magick hustla]

i really like the zapatistas though because they def. have some white leftist tourist shit going on. homebrothers with dreadlocks and drums and shit

[black magick hustla]

also camus was a tool and a racist

[#FF0000]

I wish Maldoror posted in OI more.

[StockholmSyndrome]

i think its nauseating how you social democratic rats can't understand why people move out of the soul sucking agricultural communties (which are integrated in the world market btw), with all their parochialism and petty inter personal politics, to get a better life in the city.

It's nauseating how in one breath you can go from denouncing people for treating "peasants as helpless little children" who have "delusions of modernization", and then go on to lump them into your prescribed "rural folk" stereotype with their "soul sucking petty parochialism". You love to hate on rural lifestyles because you believe that their current forms of social organization are an impediment to progress. You think the way to counter the idealization of indigenous struggles is by idealizing technological progress, imperialism and Eurocentric unilinear evolution.

[Delenda Carthago]

The Zappatista revolt was the revolt by some people who were throwned away from the capitalist system. And their struggle was the struggle of someone who trys to do it by himself, not of someone who takes the already system and reshapes it to his needs.

That being said, the zappatista's youth are in their majority more militant than their parents ever where. People who went to Chiapas will tell you. Still, if a better life standard can be achieved through capitalism, then thats the way to go. They are not getting by themselves to communism anyway...

[black magick hustla]

It's nauseating how in one breath you can go from denouncing people for treating "peasants as helpless little children" who have "delusions of modernization", and then go on to lump them into your prescribed "rural folk" stereotype with their "soul sucking petty parochialism". You love to hate on rural lifestyles because you believe that their current forms of social organization are an impediment to progress. You think the way to counter the idealization of indigenous struggles is by idealizing technological progress, imperialism and Eurocentric unilinear evolution.

i don't believe certain forms of "social organization" are an impediment to progress today. i think Capital is total and has expanded throughout the whole world and that most of the talk of "idyllic lifestyles" is meaningless because those lifestyles are part of capital today too. a lot of my family had nothing and came from rural backgrounds, and i assure you they don't sanctify that shit in the same way bored western suburbanites/urbanites talk about it. capitalism needs agricultural communities too.

your rap reminds me of fucking stupid "anti-imperialists" that curse cuban working folk for defecting the island in search of better wages.

[black magick hustla]

The Zappatista revolt was the revolt by some people who were throwned away from the capitalist system. And their struggle was the struggle of someone who trys to do it by himself, not of someone who takes the already system and reshapes it to his needs.

But that is entirely what they did. They carved themselves a small space in postmodern capitalism. They entirely depend on the market, and/or charity/funding from western organizations.




That being said, the zappatista's youth are in their majority more militant than their parents ever where. People who went to Chiapas will tell you. Still, if a better life standard can be achieved through capitalism, then thats the way to go. They are not getting by themselves to communism anyway...

i think the point is that there cannot be "islands of communism".

[Amphictyonis]

I think it's nauseating how you spoiled hipster ultra-leftist types can have more blind faith in capitalism than most capitalists.

I like it when the opportunity to type "LOL" comes up. This is one of those times.



LOL

[black magick hustla]

also the whole hipster communism is a joke hahahaha. i am actually pretty classical and old fashioned left communist

[Delenda Carthago]

But that is entirely what they did. They carved themselves a small space in postmodern capitalism. They entirely depend on the market, and/or charity/funding from western organizations.




i think the point is that there cannot be "islands of communism".
I kno,thats what I m sayin.

[Amphictyonis]

also the whole hipster communism is a joke hahahaha. i am actually pretty classical and old fashioned left communist

Not me. I have tattoo's, drink PBR and wear a black bandanna for all occasions (not really). Too old these days to care about fashion. Anyone can make a fashion statement- that's mostly what today's "punk scene" is. A fashion statement, not too much substance. Things were far more political in the late 1990's. At least in the Bay Area.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

It didn't really look like they're "reconsidering" capitalism, some kids are just leaving the Zapatista's. Others are just being migrant workers, going out to the cities and working for a little, then returning with a little cash. But they want to focus on four youth who left, what else would you expect from the BBC and the Gate's family?

[StockholmSyndrome]

your rap reminds me of fucking stupid "anti-imperialists" that curse cuban working folk for defecting the island in search of better wages.

I never said anything about migrant workers in the city and I have no problem with people trying to find a better life for themselves. Your rap reminds me of fucking stupid "anti-imperialist ultra-leftists" who condescendingly ignore any movement of people trying to better their lives that doesn't involve the words "total annihilation of the global capitalist system".

[Bud Struggle]

Your rap reminds me of fucking stupid "anti-imperialist ultra-leftists" who condescendingly ignore any movement of people trying to better their lives that doesn't involve the words "total annihilation of the global capitalist system".

"Hard Core" Commies are the best weapon Capitalists have against Communism.

[black magick hustla]

I never said anything about migrant workers in the city and I have no problem with people trying to find a better life for themselves. Your rap reminds me of fucking stupid "anti-imperialist ultra-leftists" who condescendingly ignore any movement of people trying to better their lives that doesn't involve the words "total annihilation of the global capitalist system".

actually. im all down for motherfuckers to get out as much of the institutions as possible. im all down for people conning welfare checks for cigs and booze and people mass cheating in college. im all down for peasants do as smuch as possible to alleviate this hell we call the world. i however, will not raise a finger to politically defend the market, or the institutions of the state, or whatever. im not going to talk positively about national capital and rep manifestos who explicitly talk for a return of juarista liberalism. so yes, im just going to politically defend the total annihliation of the global capitalist system. im going to politically defend every struggle of the class that follows the negation of work and capital. this is why i call myself a communist and this is why i think camus was a tool.

[RGacky3]

"Hard Core" Commies are the best weapon Capitalists have against Communism.

Nope, lies are the best weapon. Even if crazy leninists and maoists did'nt exist, capitalists would make some boogie man up.

[ComradeMan]

lol. its a struggle for life essentially, but it is not class struggle. what is there in class struggle to struggle for space in the market, because the american bosses will outcompete you?.

Err... isn't class struggle about the proletarian class taking over industry and agriculture and controlling the "market" as opposed to the bourgeoisie?



i think its nauseating how you social democratic rats can't understand why people move out of the soul sucking agricultural communties (which are integrated in the world market btw), with all their parochialism and petty inter personal politics, to get a better life in the city.

I think it's nauseating how you lack a sense of perspective. If you actually read Marcos you'll see how he came to the realisation that proletarian revolution was meaningless to the indigenes he initially spoke too.

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

I think it's nauseating how some hack journalist heads for Cancun (party and get paid for it!), talks to a couple of guys, and writes some nonsense about the Zapatistas and half this list takes it seriously.

Couple of, uh, facts, which you can easily verify by actually spending some time in Chiapas and areas South.

Zapatistas are not isolated rural communities, though some are more isolated than others, they're very much integrated into the local economic and social structure. Lots of farming communities, officially "liberated" or not, produce for export within Mexico (they're pretty much cut out of the export system to the US.) There is no clear demarcation between the Zapatista communities and the ejidos, that is, the traditional "reservations" that are self-governed, rather the purpose of Zapatismo has always been to rewrite the dynamics between traditional Indian communities and the rest of the world going as far back as the Aztecs - don't ever underestimate pre-Columbian commercial networks.

Just as in pre-Columbian times, there's a great deal of traveling between communities. Cancun would be, roughly, a long 24-hours bus ride from any number of Zapatista villages. Guys (or girls) heading South to make a buck off the gringos and gringas? Why not?

BTW - if you want to fantasize that anything involving buying, selling or bartering is "capitalism" you're welcome to believe it. I bought some really cool rag dolls in ski-caps representing the Zapatista leaders (male and female) in the market at San Cristóbal de las Casas, which is periodically, officially invaded by Zapatistas, and is saturated with their thought and influence every day.

Cheers,

[The Grey Blur]

to reify basic economic processes (ie accumulation by dispossesion, economic migration etc) as ideological signifiers ('embracing capitalism') is utterly fucking stupid.

[#FF0000]

anti-imperialist ultra-leftists

Here's one I haven't heard