Mongolian Neo-Nazis

[Queercommie Girl]

Who says contemporary neo-Nazism is solely an European affair?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/aug/02/mongolia-far-right

Mongolian neo-Nazis: Anti-Chinese sentiment fuels rise of ultra-nationalism


Alarm sounds over rise of extreme groups such as Tsagaan Khass who respect Hitler and reject foreign influence

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/About/General/2010/8/2/1280761040788/Mongolian-neo-Nazi-group--006.jpg

Mongolian neo-Nazi group the Tsagaan Khas ('White Swastika') salute on the streets of the capital Ulan Bator Photograph: Dan Chung for the Guardian

Their right hands rise to black-clad chests and flash out in salute to their nation: "Sieg heil!" They praise Hitler's devotion to ethnic purity.


But with their high cheekbones, dark eyes and brown skin, they are hardly the Third Reich's Aryan ideal. A new strain of Nazism has found an unlikely home: Mongolia (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/mongolia).


Once again, ultra-nationalists have emerged from an impoverished economy and turned upon outsiders. This time the main targets come from China (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/china), the rising power to the south.


Groups such as Tsagaan Khass, or White Swastika, portray themselves as patriots standing up for ordinary citizens in the face of foreign crime, rampant inequality, political indifference and corruption.


But critics say they scapegoat and attack the innocent. The US state department has warned travellers of increased assaults on inter-racial couples in recent years – including organised violence by ultra-nationalist groups.


Dayar Mongol threatened to shave the heads of women who sleep with Chinese men. Three years ago, the leader of Blue Mongol was convicted of murdering his daughter's boyfriend, reportedly because the young man had studied in China.


Though Tsagaan Khass leaders say they do not support violence, they are self-proclaimed Nazis. "Adolf Hitler was someone we respect. He taught us how to preserve national identity," said the 41-year-old co-founder, who calls himself Big Brother.


"We don't agree with his extremism and starting the second world war. We are against all those killings, but we support his ideology. We support nationalism rather than fascism."


It is, by any standards, an extraordinary choice. Under Hitler, Soviet prisoners of war who appeared Mongolian were singled out for execution. More recently, far-right groups in Europe have attacked Mongolian migrants.
Not all ultra-nationalists use this iconography; and widespread ignorance about the Holocaust and other atrocities may help to explain why some do.
Tsagaan Khass points out that the swastika is an ancient Asian symbol – which is true, but does not explain the group's use of Nazi colours, the Nazi eagle and the Nazi salute; or the large picture of the Führer on Big Brother's cigarette case.


Nor does it seem greatly relevant, given their unabashed admiration for Hitler's racial beliefs.


"We have to make sure that as a nation our blood is pure. That's about our independence," said 23-year-old Battur, pointing out that the population is under three million.


"If we start mixing with Chinese, they will slowly swallow us up. Mongolian society is not very rich. Foreigners come with a lot of money and might start taking our women."


Big Brother acknowledges he discovered such ideas through the nationalist groups that emerged in Russia after the Soviet Union's fall; Mongolia had been a satellite state. But the anti-Chinese tinge is distinct and increasingly popular.


"While most people feel far-right discourse is too extreme, there seems to be a consensus that China is imperialistic, 'evil' and intent on taking Mongolia," said Franck Billé of Cambridge University, who is researching representations of Chinese people in Mongolia.


Hip hop tracks such as Don't Go Too Far, You Chinks by 4 Züg – chorus: "shoot them all, all, all" – have been widely played in bars and clubs. Urban myths abound; some believe Beijing has a secret policy of encouraging men to have sex with Mongolian women.


Yet Tsagaan Khass claims it welcomes law-abiding visitors of all races, and Big Brother can certainly be hospitable.


Enthusiastically shaking hands, he says: "Even though you are a British citizen, you are still Asian, and that makes you very cool."


He says the younger members have taught him to be less extreme and the group appears to be reshaping itself – expelling "criminal elements" and insisting on a good education as a prerequisite for membership. One of the leaders is an interior designer.


But critics fear ultra-nationalists are simply becoming more sophisticated and, quietly, more powerful. Tsagaan Khass say it "works closely" with other organisations and is now discussing a merger.


"Some people are in complete denial … [but] we can no longer deny this is a problem," said Anaraa Nyamdorj, of Mongolia's Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Centre.


The US state department has noted increased reports of xenophobic attacks since the spring. The UN country review cites a recent vicious assault on three young transgender women. When one of the victims publicly blamed an ultra-nationalist group – not Tsagaan Khass – death threats quickly followed.


"They are getting more support from the public," added Enkhjargal Davaasuren, director of the National Centre Against Violence, who fears that ultra-nationalists are growing more confident and victims too scared to come forward. She pointed to a YouTube video posted last year, showing a man roughly shaving a woman's long hair. The victim's face is buried in her hands, but her hunched body reeks of fear.


Others in Ulan Bator suggest the movement is waning and suspect the groups' menacing stance and claims of 3,000 members are bluster. Billé thinks there is "a lot of posturing".


"We have heard of instances [of violence]. They are not necessarily all right or all wrong," said Javkhlan, a Tsagaan Khass leader. But the group is simply a "law enforcement" body, he maintained: "We do checks; we go to hotels and restaurants to make sure Mongolian girls don't do prostitution and foreigners don't break the laws.


"We don't go through and beat the shit out of everyone. We check our information and make sure it's true."


They rely on police and media pressure to reform such businesses, he added. And if that failed? "We try to avoid using power," he said. "That would be our very last resort."

[IndependentCitizen]

Nazism isn't about whites, though. Blacks, Jews, and etc can be Nazis themselves provided they wish to segregate races and believe they're the supreme race.


This does make me giggle though..

[28350]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/mongolian-neo-nazis-t139743/index.html?t=139743

[agnixie]

Nazism isn't about whites, though. Blacks, Jews, and etc can be Nazis themselves provided they wish to segregate races and believe they're the supreme race.


This does make me giggle though..

And the Hungarian and Turkish fascists had a lot of their propaganda based on the idea of a Turanian race, equal to the Aryan race, uniting all the Altaic, Ugric, and Northeastern Asian (Japanese, Korean) cultures. At least during ww2. They don't seem to be that different from angry skinheads, though. Stupid, violent, but not likely to take over.

[Dimentio]

Is this group gaining attention on the merit of it's size or on the merit of being an oddity?

My impression when I see those guys is that they are doing it for the shock value and are quite ineffectual.

Besides, a potential Anti-Chinese party in Mongolia must by necessity be Pro-American, which necessarily means proscribing to the "colour revolutionary" theme of happy dancing youths looking western and happy.

While the US are supporting the NBP in Russia today, they are only doing it through the "Other Russia Movement", which they hope to utilise in order to prop up Kasparov as a kind of Russian Yuschenko.

In countries like Mongolia, Ukraine, Estonia, Slovakia and Georgia, political movements tend to be either Pro-Russian, Pro-Chinese or Pro-American. That is because small countries don't afford to escape the clutches of Geopolitics.

[Dimentio]

And the Hungarian and Turkish fascists had a lot of their propaganda based on the idea of a Turanian race, equal to the Aryan race, uniting all the Altaic, Ugric, and Northeastern Asian (Japanese, Korean) cultures. At least during ww2. They don't seem to be that different from angry skinheads, though. Stupid, violent, but not likely to take over.

Oh yes.

[Ocean Seal]

The funny thing about them is that they probably have a total of only 6 members as the photos of the same six guys in different combinations show. :lol:

[Queercommie Girl]

And the Hungarian and Turkish fascists had a lot of their propaganda based on the idea of a Turanian race, equal to the Aryan race, uniting all the Altaic, Ugric, and Northeastern Asian (Japanese, Korean) cultures. At least during ww2. They don't seem to be that different from angry skinheads, though. Stupid, violent, but not likely to take over.


From a purely scientific perspective, the Altaic language family probably does exist, consisting of five branches: Turkic, Mongolic, Tungunsic, Korean, and Japanese, just like the Indo-European ("Aryan") language family exists.

Uralic languages like Finnish however are a different language family.

Obviously no-one is fundamentally "superior" to anyone else, but there is an explanation to why even in ancient times the Aryans and Turanians are more widely spread across the Old World than most other languages families, because their armies had proportionally more horses, which gave them an edge in transportation and warfare. (Just like modern industrial technology gave the European capitalists a military edge, allowing them to conquer almost the entire world)

The ancient Han Chinese had to mobilise hundreds of thousands of mainly infantry (well-armed) troops against armies of Altaic nomads on horseback of a much smaller size.

The four major language families of Eurasia and North Africa are Aryan (Indo-European), Turanian (Altaic), Semitic (Afro-Asiatic) and Chinese (Sino-Tibetan). Due to a superior level of literary civilisation, agriculture and military technology, these four groups of peoples have dominated the ancient world for thousands of years before the Industrial Revolution. Europeans only began to dominate the globe as a result of the Industrial Revolution.

[agnixie]

The funny thing about them is that they probably have a total of only 6 members as the photos of the same six guys in different combinations show. :lol:

I guess it's the whole "oh, look, nazis in countries where it shouldn't happen" - they're relatively irrelevant, even in a small country like Mongolia, and it's still the myth that nazi racism was in any way consistent - they had no problem with Iranians, who are much closer to slavs and indians than to western Europeans, and they allied with Bulgaria, by playing up the turkic aspect of their history. Similarly there was nothing about blonde-blue eyed being a trait of being aryan.

Of course I may be wrong and it's a photo-op of their leaders, and they're hundreds of thousands.


From a purely scientific perspective, the Altaic language family probably does exist, consisting of five branches: Turkic, Mongolic, Tungunsic, Korean, and Japanese, just like the Indo-European ("Aryan") language family exists.

Uralic languages like Finnish however are a different language family.

I'm aware of it, however there was at the time a theory that Uralic was a branch of Altaic. Interestingly, since the 90s, there's been some tentative associations of Uralic, Altaic and Indo-Europen into an Eurasiatic macro-language family. I'm sure somewhere some neo-nazi is orgasming at the idea. It would also include Eskimo Aleut, thus making it the language family of peoples who come from godforsaken frozen wastelands ;)




The four major language families of Eurasia and North Africa are Aryan (Indo-European), Turanian (Altaic), Semitic (Afro-Asiatic) and Chinese (Sino-Tibetan). Due to a superior level of literary civilisation, agriculture and military technology, these four groups of peoples have dominated the ancient world for thousands of years before the Industrial Revolution. Europeans only began to dominate the globe as a result of the Industrial Revolution.

The last bit is a common saying, but outside of the fact that the concept of Europe as a political dimension is medieval and mostly comes from efforts to separate the muslim and christian worlds in christian thought (which was a pretty stupid notion even at the time if you were an italian looking far more east and south than north), "european" Indoeuropean peoples did run their share of the ancient world ;)

[Dimentio]

I think discussions of phenomenons and subcultures like this should be confined to Chit-Chat.

[Queercommie Girl]

I think discussions of phenomenons and subcultures like this should be confined to Chit-Chat.


I don't think this is just a "sub-cultural phenomenon" though. I think it's more serious than that.

[agnixie]

I think discussions of phenomenons and subcultures like this should be confined to Chit-Chat.

It's tangentially related since it discusses cultural links in relation to the subject matter >.>

[Queercommie Girl]

"european" Indoeuropean peoples did run their share of the ancient world ;)


Which is why I said in pre-industrial times, Indo-European was one of the 4 major ethno-linguistic groups in the Old World.

But they certainly didn't dominate the other 3 major groups in ancient times. European technology generally lagged behind the Chinese in pre-modern times, for instance, and European military power lagged behind the Altaic nomads, which is why Genghis Khan could rampage through Russia and Eastern Europe with relative ease. European civilisation was also much younger than the much more ancient Egyptian civilisation. (Afro-Asiatic - Arab Muslim peoples are also Afro-Asiatic)

Indo-Europeans did not really stand out at all relative to the Chinese, Turanians and Semites before the Industrial Age.

[Dimentio]

I don't think this is just a "sub-cultural phenomenon" though. I think it's more serious than that.

You find discrimination everywhere.

As for those persons on the photo, it would surprise me if they have conducted any actual violence nor acts of discrimination. I think that if there's Anti-Han sentiments in Mongolia, those most dangerous would be mainstream Mongol chauvinists and not a bunch of punks dressed in funny uniforms.

The Neo-nazis in Mexico have actually murdered Emos.

From what I've seen from Neo-Nazi movements, most of them are rather youth subcultures than actual political movements (though original National Socialism itself was very much influenced by new age subcultures in 1910's Austria).

[Queercommie Girl]

You find discrimination everywhere.


This is, you will find, the Discrimination sub-forum. In theory all forms of discrimination are mentioned here, whether big or small.

[Queercommie Girl]

I think that if there's Anti-Han sentiments in Mongolia, those most dangerous would be mainstream Mongol chauvinists and not a bunch of punks dressed in funny uniforms.


That's true, but objectively Mongolia today is no longer a threat to China in any serious geo-political sense. We don't live in the feudal age anymore where a horde of Mongol horsemen could conquer much of China. I once read about the idea of a crazy and insane Mongol nationalist on a Chinese-language forum who planned to conquer China again by throwing a nuclear bomb onto the city of Beijing, and I could only laugh at his insane stupidity.

Objectively a single platoon from the People's Liberation Army accompanied by a squadron of stealth fighters could probably over-run most of Mongolia in a single campaign. Mongol nationalism is a pathetic joke strategically speaking. Their tiny little nation isn't even economically self-sufficient and has a much lower level of industrial and technological development than China.

Mongols in a serious war against China in the 21st century is like Chechens against the Russian Federation.



The Neo-nazis in Mexico have actually murdered Emos.
Ok. But what's your point? That the murdering of "emos" isn't a serious matter or something?



From what I've seen from Neo-Nazi movements, most of them are rather youth subcultures than actual political movements (though original National Socialism itself was very much influenced by new age subcultures in 1910's Austria).There is probably some truth to what you are saying here.

[Dimentio]

This is, you will find, the Discrimination sub-forum. In theory all forms of discrimination are mentioned here, whether big or small.

We don't know how much involved those people are in Discrimination, but they might be a sign of Mongolian fears of Chinese dominance.

As I've understood it though, Anti-Chinese sentiments in Mongolia might have something to do with political rather than racial factors. And no, Genghis Khan won't come back (though modern Mongolia was originally founded by another crazy warlord).

[Dimentio]

Yes, but Mongolian extreme nationalists might be a threat to individual Han Chinese people working or living in Mongolia.

[Queercommie Girl]

We don't know how much involved those people are in Discrimination, but they might be a sign of Mongolian fears of Chinese dominance.

As I've understood it though, Anti-Chinese sentiments in Mongolia might have something to do with political rather than racial factors. And no, Genghis Khan won't come back (though modern Mongolia was originally founded by another crazy warlord).


It can't really be "racial" since mostly you can't even tell Mongols and Northern Han apart physically.

Animosity between Chinese and Mongols have always been ethnic and political rather than racial.

[Dimentio]

Yes, but a large part of the Mongolian homeland exists within Chinese borders too.

[OhYesIdid]

Even if, militarily they might be a "joke", let's consider the possibility of great new Oil reserves being found there, and China wanting to seize them: this could lead to civil resistance or even guerrilla warfare and I do think it is important to worry about who is the one who inspires and leads the movement. Or at least, what ideology carries the banner of nationalism and under-dog-ness.

[Dimentio]

Even if, militarily they might be a "joke", let's consider the possibility of great new Oil reserves being found there, and China wanting to seize them: this could lead to civil resistance or even guerrilla warfare and I do think it is important to worry about who is the one who inspires and leads the movement. Or at least, what ideology carries the banner of nationalism and under-dog-ness.

China won't invade Mongolia because of oil. They don't think in that way. They would simply buy up the country. If the Pro-Chinese rulers are overthrown, they would simply do enough trade treaties and give enough luxury cars and soon the new rulers are Pro-Chinese too.

Mongolia is virtually doomed to be an appendix to China.

They flirted with Pro-American policies in the 90's and 00's, but it is hard when you are land-locked between China and Russia.

So, the only other feasible option is some kind of Mongolian Juche. Won't happen.

[Queercommie Girl]

Yes, but a large part of the Mongolian homeland exists within Chinese borders too.

I see your point, but Inner Mongolians are generally much less "nationalist" than their Outer Mongolian counterparts. A large proportion of Inner Mongolians in China are ok with staying as a part of the PRC, more than ethnic Tibetans or Uyghurs.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

And the goal of the international proletarian revolution is to abolish nations, nationalism and nationality all together.

[Dimentio]

And the goal of the international proletarian revolution is to abolish nations, nationalism and nationality all together.

The problem is of course that national borders are existing.

To Iseul: Yes, and it would probably be better for Mongols in Outer Mongolia if they were a part of China too. It would give them access to the sea at least.

Small countries are generally only pawns for larger countries.

[OhYesIdid]

And the goal of the international proletarian revolution is to abolish nations, nationalism and nationality all together.

The sky is blue, what's your point?

And, Dimentio, eve if they don't invade,even if they go for staging a coupe, don't you think it matters who is *left* as the underdog?

[Dimentio]

OhYesIDid: In Mongolia's case, very little.

Mongolia is virtually what the Metis Confederacy would have been had they still been independent.

[Ligeia]

This reminds me of neonazis in Mexico. It doesn't make any sense.Especially if you consider how there are similar groups in the U.S. which despise mexicans to say the least.And I'm not even putting this in a historical context...
I've seen books about nazism and stuff like "Mein Kampf" selled by street vendors in Mexico.
If you look at wikipedia's spanish neonazism entry (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neonazismo#M.C3.A9xico), you'll find a section about Germany and Spain....and Latin America, specifically: Argentina,Chile,Colombia,Uruguay and Mexico. But only in Mexico this is a very recent group and it's not big but big enough to be noticed as existent.

How did they come about in Mongolia?

[Dimentio]

This reminds me of neonazis in Mexico. It doesn't make any sense.Especially if you consider how there are similar groups in the U.S. which despise mexicans to say the least.And I'm not even putting this in a historical context...
I've seen books about nazism and stuff like "Mein Kampf" selled by street vendors in Mexico.
If you look at wikipedia's spanish neonazism entry (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neonazismo#M.C3.A9xico), you'll find a section about Germany and Spain....and Latin America, specifically: Argentina,Chile,Colombia,Uruguay and Mexico. But only in Mexico this is a very recent group and it's not big but big enough to be noticed as existent.

How did they come about in Mongolia?

It is basically only in Europe and to some extent in the USA that Hitler evokes cringes.

In large parts of the Third World, Hitler is looked upon as an "anti-imperialist" leader who fought the British and French imperialists. I don't know for Latin America, but in India, Tibet and the Arab World, he had followers already when in power. In Africa, Idi Amin planned to erect a statue of Hitler, Macias Nguema kind of liked Hitler and there even was a Zimbabwean politician named "Hitler Hunzvi".

Hitler is not (as) primarily associated with racism in third world countries, mostly because he wreaked havoc over Europe exclusively. For Indians for example, who saw 3-4 million of their compatriots starve to death in 1942-44, Churchill seemed like the greater evil.

For Mongolians and other East Asians, the Japanese were worse than Hitler.

[Queercommie Girl]

For Mongolians and other East Asians, the Japanese were worse than Hitler.

Though the Japanese Imperialists did possess a firm explicit alliance with the Nazi Germans under Hitler.

[Ligeia]

It is basically only in Europe and to some extent in the USA that Hitler evokes cringes.

In large parts of the Third World, Hitler is looked upon as an "anti-imperialist" leader who fought the British and French imperialists. I don't know for Latin America, but in India, Tibet and the Arab World, he had followers already when in power. In Africa, Idi Amin planned to erect a statue of Hitler, Macias Nguema kind of liked Hitler and there even was a Zimbabwean politician named "Hitler Hunzvi".

Hitler is not (as) primarily associated with racism in third world countries, mostly because he wreaked havoc over Europe exclusively. For Indians for example, who saw 3-4 million of their compatriots starve to death in 1942-44, Churchill seemed like the greater evil.

For Mongolians and other East Asians, the Japanese were worse than Hitler.

That's intresting.
Still I think, it's different for Latin America since some countries harboured some ex-Nazi personnel and thus know what it's all about. In Latin American countries thus, nazism is tied to racism and anti-semitism(and all that goes with it).

But for Mexico that's different (then again, they are a marginal group more tied to internet-activity),e.g. they either love prehispanic culture or they hate it. Evidently there are very different nazi groups in Mexico ;either more influenced by European neonazis or by those that like you said think of this as anti-imperialism.

[Dimentio]

Though the Japanese Imperialists did possess a firm explicit alliance with the Nazi Germans under Hitler.

Yes, but South Koreans feel about the Germans like the Norwegians feel about the Japanese. The Germans never committed atrocities in Vietnam, Korea, China or Indonesia.

In terms of the Americans, it is a bit different since they fought both the Japanese and the Germans. Up until the German concentration camps were discovered, the Americans really respected their German adversaries and saw them just a enemies. The feeling for the Japanese was more one influenced by racist hatred which culminated in the atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[Tim Finnegan]

I think the fact that I responded to this with "huh" rather than laughter indicates that I've spent more time reading about Nazi race theory than is entirely healthy. ;)

[Queercommie Girl]

Yes, but Mongolian extreme nationalists might be a threat to individual Han Chinese people working or living in Mongolia.


It isn't just anti-Han sentiments though. If you read the article, the Mongolian neo-Nazis target LGBT people of ethnic Mongol origin as well.

[El Chuncho]

The feeling for the Japanese was more one influenced by racist hatred which culminated in the atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Agreed, and the atomic bombing of Japan was yet another black mark on the USA, and capitalist society as a whole. I find it ironic that conservative Americans attack the USSR, North Korea, China and many other weapons for nuclear programs when the USA is the only country to use a weapon of that magnitude (the Atomic bomb). A country that atomizes others as if they were sub-human has no right being an ''international peacekeeper'' against nuclear weapons.

[Thirsty Crow]

And the goal of the international proletarian revolution is to abolish nations, nationalism and nationality all together.
Although I agree with the general sense of your statement, I have to ask this: does this imply the creation and global "redistribution" of a monoculture (since the sense of nationality is, IMO, primarily a cultural affiliation)?

[Rafiq]

According to my knowledge of Nazism, Nazism, instead of recognizing class, recognizes different Nationalities, Racial Groups, and Ethnicities.

The Goal of the "National Socialists" isn't to make whites the rulers of the Earth and kill the rest, it's what they think will fix all of the Social and Material problems "Seperating the Races" instead of abolishing class and capitalism.

[Tim Finnegan]

According to my knowledge of Nazism, Nazism, instead of recognizing class, recognizes different Nationalities, Racial Groups, and Ethnicities.
Well, Hitlerite Nazism, which indeed thoroughly bourgeois in its outlook. Strasserite Nazism has the crudest seed of class conciousness, but it pisses it away on ultranationalistic masturbation.

[agnixie]

Although I agree with the general sense of your statement, I have to ask this: does this imply the creation and global "redistribution" of a monoculture (since the sense of nationality is, IMO, primarily a cultural affiliation)?

It depends on who you asked; Marx and Engels joked a lot about the fact that it's how a lot of early french socialists understood it, basically leading to a situation where their view of socialism was basically french imperialism with a veneer of proletarian consciousness.

[Dimentio]

Well, Hitlerite Nazism, which indeed thoroughly bourgeois in its outlook. Strasserite Nazism has the crudest seed of class conciousness, but it pisses it away on ultranationalistic masturbation.

There is another line though. Classical Hitlerism was expansionistic and militaristic, whereas the modern Nazis are more isolationistic (apart from the WHITE PRIDE WORLDWIDE-folks who masturbate to the Turner Diaries).

[Thirsty Crow]

It depends on who you asked; Marx and Engels joked a lot about the fact that it's how a lot of early french socialists understood it, basically leading to a situation where their view of socialism was basically french imperialism with a veneer of proletarian consciousness.
Well, I asked NHIA.
The thing is, the formulation of "the abolition of nationality" is abstract and requires further clarification. For instance, I could imagine a post-capitalist world in which certain groups would struggle against "nationality" (I think it's important to distinguish the socially constructed sense of nationality and nationalism as an ideology) in the form of imposing a sort of a monoculture.

[GallowsBird]

I'm aware of it, however there was at the time a theory that Uralic was a branch of Altaic. Interestingly, since the 90s, there's been some tentative associations of Uralic, Altaic and Indo-Europen into an Eurasiatic macro-language family.


The group you referred to is called "Erasiatic" and is also included as part of the "Nostraic" (including Eurasiatic, Afro-Asiatic, Eskimo-Aleut , Amerind (which is closest to Eurasiatic... or may even be a Eurasiatic sub-branch), Dravidian and some I may have missed) language family by proponents such as Greenberg (who first proposed Eurasiatic) and Ruhlen (who are Anti-Racists by the way).

The idea behind it was that as all people are related it goes without saying that all languages are related to some degree. The proposed Macro-Language families such as the Nostratic and Dene-Caucasian (that includes Na-Dene, Sino-Tibetan, Caucasian, Basque et cetera) are only the ones that propanents feel they have been able to identify as legitimate groups however they feel that in the future all language groups will be proved to be connected.


I'm sure somewhere some neo-nazi is orgasming at the idea. It would also include Eskimo Aleut, thus making it the language family of peoples who come from godforsaken frozen wastelands ;)

Unlikely. As most Neo-Nazis are soley interested with a racial ideology that seperates "whites" from all other groups it actually goes against their claims if they have a connections to peoples traditionally thought of as "Asians" such as the Turks (who are hated by many European Neo-Nazis the most: especially in Germany and the Netherlands), Mongols, Japanese (who are ironically hated by Nazis which is odd as Hitler allied with the Empire of Japan), Native Americans et cetera. Most Neo-Nazis can't even admit that many Indo-European speakers are connected never mind Altaic peoples. Most Nazis are even more horrified that all languages and peoples in the world are related.

So it is naive and wrong to characterise those trying to connect man as racists when in fact many of their critic. I suggest that you look up Joseph Greenberg and co. and the history of the "movement" (if that is the correct word for it) before claiming it supports or is supported by something it is in many ways combating!

[Pavlov's House Party]

IMO these kinda of people are not necessarily fascistic - they are racists and other assorted bigots who take on the symbolism of historical racist movements and pay lip service or completely ignore their political and class aspect. The best example for this phenomenon I can think of besides this is how racists in places like Canada, the UK etc. wear American Confederate flags and such. They do not likely represent a petty-bourgeois reaction to the worker's movement.

[agnixie]

The group you referred to is called "Erasiatic" and is also included as part of the "Nostraic" (including Eurasiatic, Afro-Asiatic, Eskimo-Aleut , Amerind (which is closest to Eurasiatic... or may even be a Eurasiatic sub-branch), Dravidian and some I may have missed) language family by proponents such as Greenberg (who first proposed Eurasiatic) and Ruhlen (who are Anti-Racists by the way).

I know who Greenberg is and what his work was, I've had a few profs who knew him (and still teach his theories, which amuses me when people say that "nobody" supports them), too, but thanks for noting it anyway.



Unlikely. As most Neo-Nazis are soley interested with a racial ideology that seperates "whites" from all other groups it actually goes against their claims if they have a connections to peoples traditionally thought of as "Asians" such as the Turks (who are hated by many European Neo-Nazis the most: especially in Germany and the Netherlands), Mongols, Japanese (who are ironically hated by Nazis which is odd as Hitler allied with the Empire of Japan), Native Americans et cetera. Most Neo-Nazis can't even admit that many Indo-European speakers are connected never mind Altaic peoples. Most Nazis are even more horrified that all languages and peoples in the world are related.
Nazi racial theory was far more complicated and politically motivated than merely just white supremacism (Slavs and Roma are, after all, culturally indo-european). And not all neo-nazis are of the KKK type either. The hungarian neonazis, for one, should probably drop the neo.



So it is naive and wrong to characterise those trying to connect man as racists when in fact many of their critic. I suggest that you look up Joseph Greenberg and co. and the history of the "movement" (if that is the correct word for it) before claiming it supports or is supported by something it is in many ways combating!
Thank you for raising a point I never made. Hope you feel better about it anyway.

[GallowsBird]

I know who Greenberg is and what his work was, I've had a few profs who knew him (and still teach his theories, which amuses me when people say that "nobody" supports them), too, but thanks for noting it anyway.

Ah that is good to hear. His theories actually have quite a bit of support, as well as people who aren't sure yet but aren't strongly against them. They just seem to have a number of very, very vocal critics (though I don't find their objections at all convincing as they seem to be against the philosophy rather than the evidence and generally mis-characterise his methods. For instance Lyle Campbell and company do that a lot) I'm a big fan of his work anyway and do agree with a lot of it (though not all, as with everything else, for instance I am with a lot of other Nostraicists and include Japanese and Korean as Macro-Altaic rather than their own related group).


Nazi racial theory was far more complicated and politically motivated than merely just white supremacism (Slavs and Roma are, after all, culturally indo-european)..Exactly my point in a way. Hence as I pointed out that they don't care for other Indo-European groups (such as the groups you mentioned and modern ones have very little time for Aryan peoples themselves, that is Indo-Aryans; Iranians, Afghans and Indo-European speaking Indians) never mind Altaic peoples and


And not all neo-nazis are of the KKK type either The hungarian neonazis, for one, should probably drop the neo.Of course not all are. There are many different types and groups of Nazis including ones that aren't from groups traditionally seen as "white" (which is as many Nostraicists and Eurasiaticists (who are largely now the same group but I digress) would attest to as of course would most of us leftists who think the idea of "race" a ridiculous bourgeois concept.



Thank you for raising a point I never made. Hope you feel better about it anyway.
No problem. I am glad you didn't think I was being too harsh towards your post. I'm just an abrasive type in general and reasonably defensive in regards towards the theories of Greenberg and co... many of which I have defended recently from attacks by some motivated by racism rather than linguistic truths! ;)

Peace out. :)

[Queercommie Girl]

I think the fact that I responded to this with "huh" rather than laughter indicates that I've spent more time reading about Nazi race theory than is entirely healthy. ;)

Sorry, but Nazism and fascism are not funny at all. It's a very serious topic. Fascism is the worst manifestation of capitalism and our greatest enemy. And frankly in the West today there are some crypto-fascists lurking among genuine leftists, Marxists and the working class.

Admittedly contemporary Mongolian neo-Nazism is probably the one variant of neo-Nazism which has the least amount of real threat to socialism, but if you look at some of the responses in this thread, I'd still say that some people are not taking fascism seriously enough.

[Commissar Stalin]

They look like jokes, Hitler surely would have had them sent to a concentration camp. Truly some sad individuals in this world.

[Magón]

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[Queercommie Girl]

^

This is classic. LOL

[Tavarisch_Mike]

The thing that there are russian and polish neo-nazis, is also starnge since the slavs where seen as "untermenschen" by Hitler. I mean just because they arnt white/aryan (in this case) doesnt mean anything, or make it unique. One of the most famous neo-nazis in Sweden where mixed liberian and white-american.

[GallowsBird]

The thing that there are russian and polish neo-nazis, is also starnge since the slavs where seen as "untermenschen" by Hitler.


Slavs are treated like "under-men" in the UK at the moment; I keep expecting someone to argue that immigrant workers from Poland should be made into slaves as the origin of the word "slave" comes from "Slav". Actually the anti-Slavicism in the UK is really becoming very strong and is even more annoying as I have Polish relatives myself and who knows maybe they'll be "sent home" eventually. I'm a Slavophile anyway.

I have always found Slavic Nazis ironic, though it must be said I have seen African Nazis, Mongolian Nazis, Middle Eastern Nazis et cetera.

The thing about all those Nazi groups is that they can't have meaningful alliances as they hate each others blood.

[Queercommie Girl]

Nazi degenerates deserve everything that's coming for them. They and all of their implicit and explicit sympathisers should be slaughtered without mercy like the stupid degenerate pigs that they are.

The left should conduct an armed war against the far-right when the situation/condition is right.

I absolutely hate the Nazis and every single thing they stand for. Seeing the blood of Nazis being shed would certainly feel my spirit with the highest level of satisfaction.

[GallowsBird]

Nazi degenerates deserve everything that's coming for them. They and all of their implicit and explicit sympathisers should be slaughtered without mercy like the stupid degenerate pigs that they are.

The left should conduct an armed war against the far-right when the situation/condition is right.

I absolutely hate the Nazis and every single thing they stand for. Seeing the blood of Nazis being shed would certainly feel my spirit with the highest level of satisfaction.

Hear, hear!

I like the way you think. ;)