Canadian Election 2011

[Die Rote Fahne]

Which party are you going to, or would you support? Why?

I selected NDP. They are the most left leaning party I can vote for in my region, and the one left party with a chance of growing to opposition and eventually form a government. Jack Layton would get things done.

[Die Neue Zeit]

None of the above (other).

[Die Rote Fahne]

None of the above (other).
What party/independent would you support, or would you refrain from participating in the election?

[The Intransigent Faction]

Some of my Social Democrat friends have been ready to lunge at my throat due to my temptation not to vote in this election. Aside from the issue of wasted votes, no party with any chance of winning would actually make significant or even genuine steps toward workers' control of the means of production.

While a vote for the reformist NDP in order to try to keep the Cons out is tempting, I'm not convinced that a vote in this election is anything more than active legitimization of bourgeois "democracy". The voting rate is already as low as 60%, and the lower it goes, perhaps the more effective a presentation of alternative action would be, namely the democratization of the economy.

What's worst is the indignant response I get that "people in Libya are dying fighting for a right to vote!" and hence my not "exercising my freedom" is somehow an insult to the Libyan masses.

Long story short, I'm quite conflicted at this point. Reformism is a lesser evil, but is an active endorsement of that position by the left really the best option?
Then there are those who vote "strategically" for the Liberals...

No matter how much I refute the "If you don't vote, then you have no right to complain" nonsense, I hear it again and again as an almost religious chant.

EDIT: Also, the NDP candidate for my riding has just recently defected to the Conservatives, showing they are quite capable of sacrificing even reformist principles for political opportunism, although this kind of defection between these particular parties is admittedly rare.

---End rant.

[agnixie]

NDP; I joined as a youth member a while back and even if I'm massively disappointed at times, they're the only seriously left-wing party on the ballot (while the Bloc has gone left, it also started out under ex-tory neoliberal leadership and has enabled the tories (and I don't mean just by existing)).

I'll still sign the CPC and MLPC candidates' petitions to run, while groaning at the sectarianism involved. It would make a nice change if they actually got on the ballot, even if ultimately revolution is probably a better plan.

[MarxSchmarx]

YOu know, these guys are still running candidates:
http://votecommunist.ca/
http://www.cpcml.ca/Tmld2011/D41052.htm#1

I mean, I know this is OI and all and sure I respect the spoilage line, but why are they left out of a poll on REVLEFT in deference even to the tories or the bloc?

[agnixie]

YOu know, these guys are still running candidates:
http://votecommunist.ca/
http://www.cpcml.ca/Tmld2011/D41052.htm#1

I mean, I know this is OI and all and sure I respect the spoilage line, but why are they left out of a poll on REVLEFT in deference even to the tories or the bloc?

The Communist Party barely managed to get a name on the ballot in my riding once since I turned 18, the Marxist-Leninists, same. I can cancel my vote (probably will, unless I like the NDP candidate, because after the whole "former NDP candidate goes careerist and switches to the tories" thing I have second thoughts :p ), but I can't vote for someone who isn't even running.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Some of my Social Democrat friends have been ready to lunge at my throat due to my temptation not to vote in this election. Aside from the issue of wasted votes, no party with any chance of winning would actually make significant or even genuine steps toward workers' control of the means of production.

While a vote for the reformist NDP in order to try to keep the Cons out is tempting, I'm not convinced that a vote in this election is anything more than active legitimization of bourgeois "democracy". The voting rate is already as low as 60%, and the lower it goes, perhaps the more effective a presentation of alternative action would be, namely the democratization of the economy.

What's worst is the indignant response I get that "people in Libya are dying fighting for a right to vote!" and hence my not "exercising my freedom" is somehow an insult to the Libyan masses.

Long story short, I'm quite conflicted at this point. Reformism is a lesser evil, but is an active endorsement of that position by the left really the best option?
Then there are those who vote "strategically" for the Liberals...

No matter how much I refute the "If you don't vote, then you have no right to complain" nonsense, I hear it again and again as an almost religious chant.

EDIT: Also, the NDP candidate for my riding has just recently defected to the Conservatives, showing they are quite capable of sacrificing even reformist principles for political opportunism, although this kind of defection between these particular parties is admittedly rare.

---End rant.

It's our responsibility to elect the option that is best for the working class!

Any improvement is better than none, or regression.

[RGacky3]

The voting rate is already as low as 60%, and the lower it goes, perhaps the more effective a presentation of alternative action would be, namely the democratization of the economy.


THe voting rate in the US is closer to 30%, does THAT make a difference there? No.

[The Intransigent Faction]

THe voting rate in the US is closer to 30%, does THAT make a difference there? No.

In federal elections? I'd like to see a source for that. Still, of course a low voting rate in and of itself doesn't necessarily mean greater receptiveness to socialism, but it seems like those who don't vote for the Dems/Reps (or bringing it back to Canada, Libs/Cons) would be more likely to favour or be persuaded to favour socialism.

My point was simply that voting NDP is not really a solution, so why encourage support for them instead of for socialism?

[Dimmu]

Anyone from Canada want to explain the political situation in short? I know about the reelections, but who has the biggest chance of winning?

[agnixie]

Anyone from Canada want to explain the political situation in short? I know about the reelections, but who has the biggest chance of winning?

The short version:
A parliamentary committee found the prime minister in contempt of parliament, thus the federal elections. Unless he eats a kitten, Harper will probably still have a plurality of the seats in the house. A few conservatives are already hoping for the majority. And the only left wing party in Parliament (aside from the Bloc) is bleeding people because Harper framed it into a popularity contest between him and the liberal party leader.

[Iraultzaile Ezkerreko]

In federal elections? I'd like to see a source for that. Still, of course a low voting rate in and of itself doesn't necessarily mean greater receptiveness to socialism, but it seems like those who don't vote for the Dems/Reps (or bringing it back to Canada, Libs/Cons) would be more likely to favour or be persuaded to favour socialism.

My point was simply that voting NDP is not really a solution, so why encourage support for them instead of for socialism?
30-40% in midterm elections for Federal legislators depending on how pissed off people are. 40-50% in Presidential elections, depending on how competitive the campaign is and how pissed off people are. The US very rarely breaks the 50% voter turnout mark.

[Octavian]

The reality of the situation is there's only three out comes to this election
1.Conservative Majority
2.Conservative Minority
3.Liberal Minority
Weighing out the lesser evil I would go with number 3.

[agnixie]

The reality of the situation is there's only three out comes to this election
1.Conservative Majority
2.Conservative Minority
3.Liberal Minority
Weighing out the lesser evil I would go with number 3.

There's also the nightmare scenario: a Tory supermajority. Given Harper's understanding of parliamentary politics, I wouldn't be surprised if he invoked war measures at the first sign of protest.

[Die Rote Fahne]

YOu know, these guys are still running candidates:
http://votecommunist.ca/
http://www.cpcml.ca/Tmld2011/D41052.htm#1

I mean, I know this is OI and all and sure I respect the spoilage line, but why are they left out of a poll on REVLEFT in deference even to the tories or the bloc?

OTHER is an option.

I'd like to note the Marijuana party and the New Rhinoceros party is probably running people too.

[The Intransigent Faction]

OTHER is an option.

I'd like to note the Marijuana party and the New Rhinoceros party is probably running people too.

Neo-Rhino? Really? That'd be cool, but I never heard that they were running any candidates.

[Zav]

None of the above. Power corrupts, and those in government, no matter how liberal they claim to be, will not bring change, which must start at the grassroots level.

[RGacky3]

In federal elections? I'd like to see a source for that. Still, of course a low voting rate in and of itself doesn't necessarily mean greater receptiveness to socialism, but it seems like those who don't vote for the Dems/Reps (or bringing it back to Canada, Libs/Cons) would be more likely to favour or be persuaded to favour socialism.

My point was simply that voting NDP is not really a solution, so why encourage support for them instead of for socialism?

I can look up the source if you don't believe me, but its pretty well known.

I'm not saying trying to encourage people to vote, thats not what causes change, activism and direct action and organization cause change, but telling people not to vote is stupid, thats the right wings dream, the right wing in the US actually put ads out last election to discourage people from voting.

[Die Rote Fahne]

None of the above. Power corrupts, and those in government, no matter how liberal they claim to be, will not bring change, which must start at the grassroots level.

Yes, all leftists should not vote. Allow a conservative majority as "nothing" would change... Apart from cuts in social services, end to gay marriage, more corporate tax cuts, more and more right wing policies...

While voting won't change the capitalist system, its the only thing we have to promote at least some secular and progressive policies, to maintain and improve the lives of the workers.

[RGacky3]

its the only thing we have to promote at least some secular and progressive policies.

Its not the only thing you have, there are mayn options, but not voting because of some moral stane or out of protest won't do anything except make things worse.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Neo-Rhino? Really? That'd be cool, but I never heard that they were running any candidates.

Probably not.

My point is that im aware other parties are running, which is why I added the "other" option.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Its not the only thing you have, there are mayn options, but not voting because of some moral stane or out of protest won't do anything except make things worse.

Agreed.

[danyboy27]

i might be wrong but i really dont expect a tory majority. The bloc and the NDP are gonna kick them out of Quebec, there is just too much shit they did recently here that will not be easily forgiven, not financing more of our infrastructure is one of them, especially in Quebec city, one of the more traditionally right wing city in Quebec, have been denied fund for their stadium.


The liberal i think will gain more seat this year, they are more organised, more prepared, and they are offering an interresting alternatives in Ontario. They are capitalizing on the corporate tax cut that the conservative want to put in place, and are offering an interesting range of perks for middle class family.

Layton is focusing on healthcare and elderly care, a popular issue in canada that seem to be ignored by the conservatives, they might win a fews more seat in Quebec.

the conservatives have been continuously threatening of an evil ''socialist and separatist'' coalition if they are not elected, a tactic that is continuously backfiring at them, since they too where a member of a de facto coalition with the bloc not so long ago against the former liberal governement. the best they can do is promising a multiple number of tax credits, crumb of bread compared to the giga-normous corporate tax cut they want to put in place.

a tory minority would probably have a devastating effect on Harper governement, and might create internal turnmoil within the party, and undermine Harper credibility greatly.


best case scenario is a liberal minority, beccause despite the fact that this party is full of crooks and cronies, those guys knew that you cant lower taxes and increase military spending at the same time, their budgets always generated surplus and they mostly kept the federal infrastructure intacts (mostly) .

Its a shit scenario but beat the conservative plan to hand over the key of the gate to corporation and billionaires.

[The Intransigent Faction]

I can look up the source if you don't believe me, but its pretty well known.

Nah it's fine. That was just clarified for me above.


I'm not saying trying to encourage people to vote, thats not what causes change, activism and direct action and organization cause change, but telling people not to vote is stupid, thats the right wings dream, the right wing in the US actually put ads out last election to discourage people from voting.

So, don't encourage voting, but don't encourage not voting, and know that activism and direct action cause change? It seems pretty clear what the left should be pushing for, then, and its not engagement in the legitimization of a choice between bourgeois party leaders A/B/C, however more progressive one section of the bourgeois might be than another.

Also what if it's my Conservative family and some other right-leaning people whom I'm discouraging from voting?

[RGacky3]

Also what if it's my Conservative family and some other right-leaning people whom I'm discouraging from voting?

Discourage them from supporting policies that suck.

[danyboy27]

right winger vote, believe it bro.

they usually dont stay at home cursing the evil governement, they fucking vote for those right wing party.

that why its important to vote, to counterbalance the right wing idiocy.

[The Intransigent Faction]

right winger vote, believe it bro.

Uh...I know. Read what I said and try again. K thx.
EDIT: Okay, not trying to be a douche, but I never said they didn't vote.

[danyboy27]

Uh...I know. Read what I said and try again. K thx.
EDIT: Okay, not trying to be a douche, but I never said they didn't vote.

what i meant was, well if your family is a bunch of right winger, you cant ask them to vote beccause they are voting anyway. all you can do is trying to change their mind.

[The Intransigent Faction]

what i meant was, well if your family is a bunch of right winger, you cant ask them to vote beccause they are voting anyway. all you can do is trying to change their mind.

And why can't I? Some of them are right-wingers, but that doesn't mean they're "voting anyway". If anything, they've expressed cynicism about the goings-on in Ottawa and are more likely to vote for nobody at all than they would be to vote, say, NDP or Liberal. Anyway the point is, encouraging people against legitimizing the bourgeois electoral process does not mean paving the way for unopposed right-wing votes, if it's cynical right-wingers you discourage from voting.

[agnixie]

And why can't I? Some of them are right-wingers, but that doesn't mean they're "voting anyway". If anything, they've expressed cynicism about the goings-on in Ottawa and are more likely to vote for nobody at all than they would be to vote, say, NDP or Liberal. Anyway the point is, encouraging people against legitimizing the bourgeois electoral process does not mean paving the way for unopposed right-wing votes, if it's cynical right-wingers you discourage from voting.

Sure, if it is; the problem is that generally, large scale apathy advantages the right rather than the left.

Also Harper seems to be using his RCMP security detail as a goon squad (http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/970029--rcmp-implicated-in-harper-s-closed-to-public-campaign?bn=1) (the Star).

[Theory&Action]

Latest polls make it seem like the NDP is making some serious gains. Seems to be a good possibility of a Jack Layton led coalition government. EKOS says 28% NDP, 24% Liberal, and 34% Conservative support nationally. Does this make anyone out there reconsider their voting choices? Granted they are straight social democrats, but a direct shift from Conservative to NDP could result in some serious progress.

[Tomhet]

It'll probs be a tory minority once more.. Idk if I'm voting, perhaps for the New democrats, but more then likely, not voting at all, what's the point anyway?

[Die Rote Fahne]

I'm fine with another con minority so long as the NDP makes a sufficient 10+ seat gain. That would be very beneficial. And another step toward an NDP opposition which would most certainly lead to an NDP government.

[RGacky3]

One proper socialist or even a social-democrat or progressive seat is worth 20 corporatist liberals.

[agnixie]

I'm fine with another con minority so long as the NDP makes a sufficient 10+ seat gain. That would be very beneficial. And another step toward an NDP opposition which would most certainly lead to an NDP government.

While on one hand Layton has been "centrifying the party", I still fell off my chair: EKOS's admittedly generous estimate gives 100 seats max to the NDP (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/terra-incognita-poll-projects-100-seats-for-surging-ndp/article1998361/) or basically the official opposition (if the Tories make government at all), with a Tory minority.

I half expect Harper to send tanks in Ottawa at this rate, given how improbable this would have seemed ten years ago.

[danyboy27]

Right now in Quebec its all about the NDP, a lot of expectation to remove the bloc from the many circonscriptions, and a fews liberal seat in the process.

[Public Domain]

The communist candidate isn't running this year in my riding so I'm just left with the Con/Lib/NDP/Green option, and I wouldn't really like to vote for any of them.

Ultimately I will likely not vote as my riding is completely dominated by a Conservative and I'm a stubborn ideologue who thinks the whole show is a farce. Conservative candidate in 2008 got 33,000 votes, second place, the NDP, got about 8,000. The communist (from the Communist Party of Canada) got over 200 votes.

If I had to vote, gun to my head, I'd support the party I supported before 'becoming a communist', which was the social democratic NDP.

I secretly hope the Jack get's major points this time and fucks up the neo-liberal agenda just a smidgen. I don't beleive anything changes, but I figure at least Jack will make the chains softer on our wrists.

Jack Layton definitely gets my 'least worst option' blessings.

[psgchisolm]

Don't vote, just let the right-wing take over and fuck up the country. Don't worry, we'll have solidarity over here in places far away that we can't actually do shit.

[Public Domain]

Don't vote, just let the right-wing take over and fuck up the country. Don't worry, we'll have solidarity over here in places far away that we can't actually do shit.
My vote = worthless in my riding. It's been a solid majority in this riding for the Conservative candidate and it's been that way for this riding's entire history.

Just from a logical standpoint here, there is just not enough leftists in the area to muster up anything, and they're never has been. This is why they call it a 'safe riding' even among this 'orange wave' fascination.

Basically I could either stand in line, go through a bunch of 'register to be an electorate' BS for about 2 hours and vote when it doesn't actually mean anything, or I could stay at home and make a sandwich, providing for myself more than any of these parties ever will.

I'm not saying "Don't vote". I'm saying that logically there's no point in ME voting. This riding has been decided for a long time.

[danyboy27]

My vote = worthless in my riding. It's been a solid majority in this riding for the Conservative candidate and it's been that way for this riding's entire history.

Just from a logical standpoint here, there is just not enough leftists in the area to muster up anything, and they're never has been. This is why they call it a 'safe riding' even among this 'orange wave' fascination.

Basically I could either stand in line, go through a bunch of 'register to be an electorate' BS for about 2 hours and vote when it doesn't actually mean anything, or I could stay at home and make a sandwich, providing for myself more than any of these parties ever will.

I'm not saying "Don't vote". I'm saying that logically there's no point in ME voting. This riding has been decided for a long time.

when you vote for a political party 2 dollars goes to this political party.

[Die Rote Fahne]

My vote = worthless in my riding. It's been a solid majority in this riding for the Conservative candidate and it's been that way for this riding's entire history.

Just from a logical standpoint here, there is just not enough leftists in the area to muster up anything, and they're never has been. This is why they call it a 'safe riding' even among this 'orange wave' fascination.

Basically I could either stand in line, go through a bunch of 'register to be an electorate' BS for about 2 hours and vote when it doesn't actually mean anything, or I could stay at home and make a sandwich, providing for myself more than any of these parties ever will.

I'm not saying "Don't vote". I'm saying that logically there's no point in ME voting. This riding has been decided for a long time.

See, if all the people with your mindset voted, there wouldnt be a conservative elected.

[danyboy27]

the key is to remain critical of bourgeois politics while participating in it.

supporting the social democrats still allow you after the elections to criticize them on their decisions, support them for their progressive ones.

If you take a look at what compose the canadian conservative voter, you got a big mashup of right wing libertarian, avearge tories, socially and economicly conservative, a lot of them have a certain degree of hate for the conservatives for not being ''tough'' enough on some issues.

[Die Rote Fahne]

the key is to remain critical of bourgeois politics while participating in it.

supporting the social democrats still allow you after the elections to criticize them on their decisions, support them for their progressive ones.

If you take a look at what compose the canadian conservative voter, you got a big mashup of right wing libertarian, avearge tories, socially and economicly conservative, a lot of them have a certain degree of hate for the conservatives for not being ''tough'' enough on some issues.

Precisely.

Improving the lives of the working class is something we should support, whether we are Marxists or Anarchists.

The farther left we push the nation, the closer we get to gaining popular support for our cause of overthrowing capitalism.

[Die Rote Fahne]

http://www.ekospolitics.com/wp-content/uploads/seat_projection_april_26_2011.pdf

EKOS is predicting a gain for 60ish seats for the NDP to a total of around 100 total seats in parliament. Making the NDP official opposition!

May I add, holy shit! :lol:

Good news imo.

[RGacky3]

Get it get it

[The Intransigent Faction]

http://www.ekospolitics.com/wp-content/uploads/seat_projection_april_26_2011.pdf

EKOS is predicting a gain for 60ish seats for the NDP to a total of around 100 total seats in parliament. Making the NDP official opposition!

May I add, holy shit! :lol:

Good news imo.

Perhaps. I've been doing some thinking, and while on principle I'm confident that "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal", I'm considering voting NDP since if the NDP could form a government, this could shift political culture in Canada away from the Conservatives, at least somewhat further left, and as was said, voting for the NDP does not preclude pointing out their shortcomings. That, and widespread non-voting of the sort that would bring discussion of alternative political action to the table does not seem as within reach as it did even a week ago.

On the other hand, I'm still struggling to see how pushing for a reformed, "humane" version of capitalism with more concessions to workers would bring us closer to a communist revolution than an outright rejection of the corrupt system and of the false alternatives to the Conservatives, including the NDP. I don't think you can really democratize the politics until you democratize the economy.

I probably sound like a broken record, but can we get any closer to communism by conceding the futility of calling for revolution and embracing the "least worst option"?

Also, is there not a risk of an "Obama scenario", where people vote for the more progressive candidate expecting major and short-term changes, only to be inevitably disappointed given that the policies of so-called progressives face the same economic constraints as any other bourgeois party, and to fall for right-wing populism?

Just some honest concerns I have.

[danyboy27]

Perhaps. I've been doing some thinking, and while on principle I'm confident that "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal", I'm considering voting NDP since if the NDP could form a government, this could shift political culture in Canada away from the Conservatives, at least somewhat further left, and as was said, voting for the NDP does not preclude pointing out their shortcomings. That, and widespread non-voting of the sort that would bring discussion of alternative political action to the table does not seem as within reach as it did even a week ago.

On the other hand, I'm still struggling to see how pushing for a reformed, "humane" version of capitalism with more concessions to workers would bring us closer to a communist revolution than an outright rejection of the corrupt system and of the false alternatives to the Conservatives, including the NDP. I don't think you can really democratize the politics until you democratize the economy.

I probably sound like a broken record, but can we get any closer to communism by conceding the futility of calling for revolution and embracing the "least worst option"?

Also, is there not a risk of an "Obama scenario", where people vote for the more progressive candidate expecting major and short-term changes, only to be inevitably disappointed given that the policies of so-called progressives face the same economic constraints as any other bourgeois party, and to fall for right-wing populism?

Just some honest concerns I have.

Political parties in canada are mostly financed by the Taxpayers, its not a miracle cure but it keep a lot of big corporations at bay.

The NDP have been created by labour leaders back then, and even tho their politics changed with time, they are still politicly backed by a lot of unions, and the core of their politics of raising the corporate taxes levels, looking for tax heavens had to be implemented if they would came to power, otherwise they would betray their base.

and in a political climate like canada, you are not allowed to fuck up, 4 major political parties, the bloc Quebecois are somewhat lefty, the liberal can act lefty and the conservatives are distributing tax credits all the time has if it was halloween candies.

if the NDP fuck up, it will be stomped , people will know and they will loose all their bases.

Unlike the U.S , there are many more political parties to choose out there, disgrunted left voter have somehow an influence here on their candidates, they can punish them without voting for Satan, or at least satan with smaller horns.

[danyboy27]

http://www.ekospolitics.com/wp-content/uploads/seat_projection_april_26_2011.pdf

EKOS is predicting a gain for 60ish seats for the NDP to a total of around 100 total seats in parliament. Making the NDP official opposition!

May I add, holy shit! :lol:

Good news imo.

yea, there are rumor about the potential breakdown of the bloc Quebecois if it happen.

I cant say i am unhappy about that prospect, the bloc verry often helped harper in his endeavor beccause it was ''good for the Quebec''

they accepted the purchase of those f-35 beccause of a backdoor deal with harper allowing the planes to be assembled in Quebec.

Sometimes, good for the Quebec mean good for the corporation.

did i mentionned i hate french canadian nationalism?

[LOLseph Stalin]

Tbh, for awhile I was very undecided as to who to vote for, having gone from supporting the Tories at the beginning and then going to Liberal. I'm likely voting Green though despite people thinking I'm just throwing my vote away. I'm in a strong Green riding though, but also a strong Conservative riding...

[The Intransigent Faction]

Political parties in canada are mostly financed by the Taxpayers, its not a miracle cure but it keep a lot of big corporations at bay.

The NDP have been created by labour leaders back then, and even tho their politics changed with time, they are still politicly backed by a lot of unions, and the core of their politics of raising the corporate taxes levels, looking for tax heavens had to be implemented if they would came to power, otherwise they would betray their base.

Yeah, I understand that there are subsidies based on # of votes/a ban on corporate and union donations/a ceiling for individual donations. Of course that doesn't stop the Cons from being friends of big business, nor does it make any of these parties anti-capitalist. Even the NDP's union support was hardly from revolutionary unions.


and in a political climate like canada, you are not allowed to fuck up, 4 major political parties, the bloc Quebecois are somewhat lefty, the liberal can act lefty and the conservatives are distributing tax credits all the time has if it was halloween candies.

As you have pointed out, there are problems with the BQ (although Duceppe himself is a former Marxist, and if what I've read is true even once spoiled a referendum ballot and instead called on Quebecois workers to fight a common capitalist enemy). In any case, they are confined to running candidates in Quebec and hence are not an option for voters in other provinces. That and they've been losing ground to the NDP anyway.

Ignatieff has explicitly spoken against the notion that Liberals are left-wing. He describes the Liberal Party as "progressive centrists" and has called on voters to not vote NDP or Conservative because it would "polarize" politics in Canada. Their endorsement of some Conservative bills and their persistent absenteeism in the past couple of parliaments make them anything but a credible choice for the left.

I don't need to remind you about the problems with the Cons.

As for being "not allowed to fuck up"...I'm not really sure what you mean. The Libs./Cons. have 'fucked up' many times and still get many seats. When the NDP does, is that going to mean voters turn to even smaller parties? Doubtful.


if the NDP fuck up, it will be stomped

Yeah, like what happened to Bob Rae in Ontario. That hardly worked well for the left.


Unlike the U.S , there are many more political parties to choose out there, disgrunted left voter have somehow an influence here on their candidates, they can punish them without voting for Satan, or at least satan with smaller horns.

Some will turn to the Conservatives. Regardless, you've confirmed the concern with which I started! Myself and others have made clear the problems with this "lesser evil" campaign for any serious movement toward revolution. It seems like you're suggesting that when voters reject the NDP, they'll just turn back to one of the major parties. Once again, this endless cycle of voting for the lesser evil does not bring us any closer to real change!

The standard perception of the NDP (by the political centre in Canada) is that their policies require financially unsustainable levels of social spending. If voters can be convinced that the problem is not investment into social programs, but a system that cannot sustain the provision of services to all who need them, then great, but if backlash against the NDP is kept within the politically accepted spectrum of opinion and action by relying on voting, it's not going to work out well for revolutionaries.

Instead of trying to "remain critical of bourgeois politics while participating it", it makes more sense to see that not participating in such a farce lends more credibility to our rejection of it and does more to promote alternative action to promote democracy. You can try to shift the spectrum of mainstream opinion further left, but there's not much of a case to be made that voting in a bourgeois Canadian election will shift our political culture far enough left to encourage necessary actions by the masses themselves to overthrow and replace the capitalist socioeconomic system.

[JoeySteel]

Wow, look at all the revolutionaries going nuts for the treacherous social democratic party. Do you root for Labour in Britan, or PASOK in Greece? Socialist Party in France? Are people on this forum generally still holding on to false ideas that modern social democrats in the imperialist countries are anything but a real impediment to communism, or this a specifically Canadian deviation? I find the left here in Ontario is ready to immediately abandon all logic and historical example to get giddy about "our team" winning when in reality the left is hurt enormously when these treacherous parties get elected. When Obama got elected, the US anti-war movement (besides that organized by reds and anarchists) totally died along with its networks, and the left is only starting to pick up in England after Labour was finally gone and people could finally break with social democracy. It's too late in human history to continue to play games and dance with imperialism. The other choice is to break with social democracy, legalism, and the state, and build a real communist party obviously. The NDP, the first party in Canada to intentionally break a collective agreement as far as I know, the party that just happily joined in declaring war against Libya, the party that wants to hire 2,500 new pigs to menace the streets, cannot be entertained any longer, even if a few crazy trots in Toronto laughably still call it a 'workers' party'. Perhaps we will get Prime Minister Jack, and the the real divisions will come out after they unconditionally compromise to the bourgeoisie as they literally have to do in order to be the "team" that gets to manage capitalism this time.

EDIT: oh I see, this is OI

[danyboy27]

Wow, look at all the revolutionaries going nuts for the treacherous social democratic party. Do you root for Labour in Britan, or PASOK in Greece? Socialist Party in France? Are people on this forum generally still holding on to false ideas that modern social democrats in the imperialist countries are anything but a real impediment to communism, or this a specifically Canadian deviation? I find the left here in Ontario is ready to immediately abandon all logic and historical example to get giddy about "our team" winning when in reality the left is hurt enormously when these treacherous parties get elected. When Obama got elected, the US anti-war movement (besides that organized by reds and anarchists) totally died along with its networks, and the left is only starting to pick up in England after Labour was finally gone and people could finally break with social democracy. It's too late in human history to continue to play games and dance with imperialism. The other choice is to break with social democracy, legalism, and the state, and build a real communist party obviously. The NDP, the first party in Canada to intentionally break a collective agreement as far as I know, the party that just happily joined in declaring war against Libya, the party that wants to hire 2,500 new pigs to menace the streets, cannot be entertained any longer, even if a few crazy trots in Toronto laughably still call it a 'workers' party'. Perhaps we will get Prime Minister Jack, and the the real divisions will come out after they unconditionally compromise to the bourgeoisie as they literally have to do in order to be the "team" that gets to manage capitalism this time.

EDIT: oh I see, this is OI
Nobody here is suggesting that the NDP is revolutionary or anti-capitalist for that matter.
If a political party do something progressive, i will support this measure, if it does something extremely reactionary, i will criticize it.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Wow, look at all the revolutionaries going nuts for the treacherous social democratic party. Do you root for Labour in Britan, or PASOK in Greece? Socialist Party in France? Are people on this forum generally still holding on to false ideas that modern social democrats in the imperialist countries are anything but a real impediment to communism, or this a specifically Canadian deviation? I find the left here in Ontario is ready to immediately abandon all logic and historical example to get giddy about "our team" winning when in reality the left is hurt enormously when these treacherous parties get elected. When Obama got elected, the US anti-war movement (besides that organized by reds and anarchists) totally died along with its networks, and the left is only starting to pick up in England after Labour was finally gone and people could finally break with social democracy. It's too late in human history to continue to play games and dance with imperialism. The other choice is to break with social democracy, legalism, and the state, and build a real communist party obviously. The NDP, the first party in Canada to intentionally break a collective agreement as far as I know, the party that just happily joined in declaring war against Libya, the party that wants to hire 2,500 new pigs to menace the streets, cannot be entertained any longer, even if a few crazy trots in Toronto laughably still call it a 'workers' party'. Perhaps we will get Prime Minister Jack, and the the real divisions will come out after they unconditionally compromise to the bourgeoisie as they literally have to do in order to be the "team" that gets to manage capitalism this time.

EDIT: oh I see, this is OI

This is OI, so I'm not going to be polite. Are you mildly retarded?

We are well aware that the NDP is not an anti-capitalist party, and we are aware that it's not revolutionary. We aren't fucking daft. We can comprehend what social democracy is, and it is much better for the working class than conservatism and liberalism.

We do cheer for the furthest left parties (with a chance) in all nations, even though we do not believe they can bring about the end of capitalism. And we do get enthusiastic when the vote swings from right of centre/centre to centre left.

While yes, we obviously understand that the NDP isn't some godsend party, but their rise in popularity, and their gain in power is GOOD for the working class.

Educate yourself. There is NOT a strong communist movement in the US or Canada. What is the alternative? Apathy? No! Participation in government to elect the most socially and economically leftist parties, WHILE STILL SUPPORTING WHAT YOU SUPPORT (anarchy, Marxism, etc). Unless you and a few hundred of your buddies have guns and are ready to take on the Canadian military and begin a revolution, we are going to elect the NDP, and we are going to support them.

Stop patronizing. We're old enough to vote, we aren't blind.

[The Intransigent Faction]

This is OI, so I'm not going to be polite. Are you mildly retarded?

Now, now, just because it's OI and we can be, doesn't mean we should be rude, and that goes for those either for or against voting in this election. If that's the way you wanna be though, okay. Who needs a mature, polite discussion when you can through petty grade-school insults into the mix?


We are well aware that the NDP is not an anti-capitalist party, and we are aware that it's not revolutionary. We aren't fucking daft. We can comprehend what social democracy is, and it is much better for the working class than conservatism and liberalism.

Those first few sentences contradict the last. You say you recognize the Social Democratic nature of the NDP (generally---note that for political and occasionally careerist purposes NDP can, have and will support even the Conservatives in some votes, but you know this), and what support for that entails for the working class, yet you show no real understanding that it is a false alternative to the Libs./Cons. and further that supporting it actually diverts attention and energy from the real alternative. Even while supporting the NDP, you fall for the "lesser evil" line of 'logic' that if followed would leave them still a distant third to the Liberals and Conservatives (albeit your version of the lesser evil is somewhat further left ideologically)!

In the short-term, perhaps it is "better", but that can backfire for reasons I noted above, and obviously the major problems still remain. The issue is whether "better than the Libs./Cons." is something worth settling for, and that is an idea which revolutionaries reject.


We do cheer for the furthest left parties (with a chance) in all nations, even though we do not believe they can bring about the end of capitalism. And we do get enthusiastic when the vote swings from right of centre/centre to centre left.

Once again, this hardly seems reconcilable to a goal of communist revolution. In fact it seems even less reconcilable than a defeatist attitude which you generally seem to have toward a push for communism, if you actually enthusiastically support the NDP, or more particularly the Liberals.
Claiming to be a revolutionary leftist while promoting even a hypothetical "strategic" vote for a party led by a man who, by the way, has claimed that indefinite detentions, "coercive interrogations"[/URL], assassinations, and "pre-emptive wars" are necessary "lesser evils" in Western countries' "War on Terror" is (sorry, but) more than mildly retarded.[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Ignatieff#cite_note-33"] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Ignatieff#cite_note-32)

Layton, of course, does not share these particular views of Ignatieff & Harper, but has used rhetoric several times about "working with the other parties" (sounds vaguely like something the compromiser-in-chief south of the border might say), and will likely be bound to do so at some point whether he wants to compromise his Social Democratic ideological stance or not.


While yes, we obviously understand that the NDP isn't some godsend party, but their rise in popularity, and their gain in power is GOOD for the working class.

Once again this is an unsupported assumption on your part---and in fact evidence and logic show otherwise. Promoting Social Democrats as an alternative, (or even worse, the Liberals!) is effectively counter-revolutionary in that it sends a false message to the working class about what really needs to be done and removes what discussion there otherwise could be, however little, of an alternative. It's a nonsensical sacrifice of revolutionary principles, which only continues to uphold the capitalist system. It's like drinking half a cup of poison and advising others to do the same. Sure, it's not as bad as the full cup, but it's still much worse for you and workers in general than refusing to drink the poison and warning others not to do so.


Educate yourself. There is NOT a strong communist movement in the US or Canada. What is the alternative? Apathy? No!

*Sigh* A false dilemma. The alternative has been made clear several times, so I'll just touch on it quickly again here.


this endless cycle of voting for the lesser evil does not bring us any closer to real change!

Strategically voting for the NDP instead of sticking with a call for revolutionary actions, however unpopular that call may be at the moment, is no more logical than it would have been for NDP supporters to have continued voting Liberal and never see this surge in NDP support!
My point, of course, is that this defeatist attitude toward a movement for communism will get us nowhere. As Antonio Gramsci once, wisely, said, "I'm a pessimist because of intelligence, but an optimist because of will." Also, "A real revolution isn't popular at first" ;). I'll say more if necessary on this point, but I think it's been pretty well exhausted now.


Participation in government to elect the most socially and economically leftist parties, WHILE STILL SUPPORTING WHAT YOU SUPPORT (anarchy, Marxism, etc).

...and if what you support entails not voting for a bourgeois political party? You must see the contradiction there! For more, check the part of my previous post where I addressed the idea that we should "remain critical of bourgeois politics while participating it".


Unless you and a few hundred of your buddies have guns and are ready to take on the Canadian military and begin a revolution, we are going to elect the NDP, and we are going to support them.

Stop patronizing. We're old enough to vote, we aren't blind.

You've been blinded by a cynical defeatist attitude. It's understandable, but not logical.
I'm sorry if anything I've said seemed patronizing, but sometimes in discussions like this it just seems necessary to state the obvious to help get a point across.

I'll admit this is something that I think needs more thinking through by those of us who reject participation in bourgeois elections. Hopefully it doesn't get to the point where Canadian soldiers are willing to fire live ammunition (which, note, has to be manufactured by someone!) in shootouts with working-class revolutionary insurgents, who would have taken control of their workplaces, to stop the replacement of capitalism by a new socioeconomic system, which may even offer them new opportunities that are ultimately more in their interests than risking their lives for imperialism overseas (call me naive if you wish). If it comes to that, though, it will be more than a few hundred of us. Obviously time and a constant, clearly focused effort is needed to foster revolutionary sentiment. We aren't expecting a revolution on May 2nd, but we are pushing towards that instead of endorsing another bourgeois farce in the persistent cycle of bourgeois farces. We've also seen that even the most harshly dictatorial of environments cannot last for long when general popular sentiment and action is turned against it strongly enough.

Have a good night.

[RGacky3]

and further that supporting it actually diverts attention and energy from the real alternative.

No it does'nt, some of the most active in the labor movement, and anti-war movement and so on are people alos active in politics, not mutually exclusive by a long shot.

[The Intransigent Faction]

No it does'nt, some of the most active in the labor movement, and anti-war movement and so on are people alos active in politics, not mutually exclusive by a long shot.

I never said anything about the anti-war movement being exclusive to revolutionaries, though they play a significant part in that movement by virtue of their call for the socioeconomic changes needed to bring an end to imperialist wars and warmongering, which is an area where other elements of the anti-war movement are lacking.

As for the "labour movement" (presumably by this you mean reformism and union bureaucrats, not a revolutionary labour movement trying to overthrow capitalism), once again you're missing the point. I picked my words carefully and yet you've twisted my meaning. I never said anything about involvement in the (non-revolutionary) "labour movement" and in politics being mutually exclusive. I don't know where you got that from, since I said something quite different in what you quoted.

What I did say in the full context of what you just quoted was that voting for and otherwise actively supporting a Social Democratic party diverts attention and energy from the real alternative of calling for revolution, and I've explained why. Yes, you CAN (technically) vote NDP one minute and call for revolution the next. You could also vote Conservative or Liberal and then walk around the streets saying capitalism needs serious reforms and more investment in social programs. Those two actions are not mutually exclusive, hence I never said that they were. What they are is logically inconsistent, and not the right idea for those seeking genuine change in the form of communist revolution, as I've explained. THAT is the point.

[Drosophila]

If I were Canadian, I would support either the Green or New Democratic Party. The Conservative and Liberal parties don't seem to be doing a very good job.

[RGacky3]

I never said anything about the anti-war movement being exclusive to revolutionaries, though they play a significant part in that movement by virtue of their call for the socioeconomic changes needed to bring an end to imperialist wars and warmongering, which is an area where other elements of the anti-war movement are lacking.

As for the "labour movement" (presumably by this you mean reformism and union bureaucrats, not a revolutionary labour movement trying to overthrow capitalism), once again you're missing the point. I picked my words carefully and yet you've twisted my meaning. I never said anything about involvement in the (non-revolutionary) "labour movement" and in politics being mutually exclusive. I don't know where you got that from, since I said something quite different in what you quoted.


I'm sure many wooblies also vote ... you added the word non-revolutionary yourself, I did'nt say that.


What they are is logically inconsistent, and not the right idea for those seeking genuine change in the form of communist revolution, as I've explained. THAT is the point.

No they are not inconsistant, you should be trying to make things better while advocating the overthrow of Capitalism.

[maskerade]

So Harper is pretty much crapping his pants right now, or what? Is there any chance of NDP and the liberals forming a coalition - or this a politically volatile suggestion?

I don't really understand the appeal for Harper and his policies, he is such a creep. And an asshole.

[danyboy27]

So Harper is pretty much crapping his pants right now, or what? Is there any chance of NDP and the liberals forming a coalition - or this a politically volatile suggestion?

I don't really understand the appeal for Harper and his policies, he is such a creep. And an asshole.

The NDP got have a good prospect of becoming the official opposition party, but we cant be sure yet.

Harper have been able to stabilize it situation and might take some seat from the liberal, perhaps some bloc Quebecois seat has well.

At the end of the day, its will depend how much seat the bloc and the liberal will lost and who will inherit it. If the conservative are able to stomp more liberal, they are gonna get a majority governement. If the NDP stomp more liberal than the conservative, there will be again a minority governement with the NDP has the main opposition party.

In both of the cases, the liberal and the bloc will end up bruised and beaten, its not gonna be pretty for them. 2 high ranking bloc quebecois members have denounced their own political party this morning in a public article in la presse and asked all bloc voter to be on the Side of the NDP.

when you got veteran card carrying members scorning their own party that way you know the gig is up.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Both the liberals and the bloc have resorted to desperate attempts to muster support.

The liberals got Chretien out of his lazyboy and the bloc got that racist asshole out (i cant remember his name).

This is further evidence of the shifting political landscape in Canada.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Neo-Rhino? Really? That'd be cool, but I never heard that they were running any candidates.

Well, they aren't neorhino anymore, but they are running 14. Most of them in Quebec.

[The Intransigent Faction]

I'm sure many wooblies also vote ... you added the word non-revolutionary yourself, I did'nt say that.

Yeah, because you referred simply to the "labour movement", which doesn't distinguish the revolutionary movement, which is what I pointed out is inconsistent with voting for reformism, and you never bothered to explain how revolutionary unions are consistent with supporting reformism, so you made it tough to tell whether you were refering to the reformist labour movement or a revolutionary one.


No they are not inconsistant, you should be trying to make things better while advocating the overthrow of Capitalism.

*Sigh* It's like talking to a brick wall. If that's what you want to think, fine. We've gone full-circle back to that, and if you refuse to, I can't make you see reason. Enjoy your NDP rallies.

[danyboy27]

Both the liberals and the bloc have resorted to desperate attempts to muster support.

The liberals got Chretien out of his lazyboy and the bloc got that racist asshole out (i cant remember his name).

This is further evidence of the shifting political landscape in Canada.

Jacques parizeau.

he blamed the ethnic vote when the last referendum failed to bring independence to quebec.

[Octavian]

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/43882/tories-lead-in-canada-ndp-firmly-in-second-place-due-to-quebec-strength/
35% Conservative
30% NDP
I never thought his would happen but NDP it is.

[Zhu Bailan]

In this riding it's a majority for the NDP, traditionally based on the votes of first nations peoples. Anyway, it's could be only a maximum of about 2000 eligible voters here for them, minus 1. :cool:

[Die Rote Fahne]

Jacques parizeau.

he blamed the ethnic vote when the last referendum failed to bring independence to quebec.

That's him. I lost some respect for Duceppe when he brought him out.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Tomorrow is election day folks! May 2, 2011.

Get out to vote, let your voice be heard!

NDP all the way!

[RGacky3]

and you never bothered to explain how revolutionary unions are consistent with supporting reformism,

Well, because you can support making life better now, while also having the goal of getting rid of the system ...

I was refering to ANY labor movement.

Even the IWW although revolutoinary, will try and win small victories, i.e. reformism.'

Voting is a strategy, a tactic, just like strikes, just like protests, and so on.

[Die Rote Fahne]

We have a conservative majority with approximately 170 seats.

We have an NDP opposition of approximately 105 seats.

The Liberals have taken a major blow down to approximately 30 seats.

The Bloc Quebecois are almost completely shut out of the election, maybe 2-4 seats.

The Greens may get their leader in for 1 seat.

My summation:

Although we have received a conservative majority, one led by a far-right, power hungry ass, we have also made A LOT of progress as the labor oriented social democratic New Democratic Party for the first time in Canadian history has gained over 43 seats AND, most importantly, form the official opposition with approximately 105 seats. This is a great success. Though I clearly didn't want a conservative majority, Canada will now see the REAL face of Stephen Harper and the Conservative (Harper) party. As much damage as this conservative majority will do, Canada in 4 years will no doubt toss him out, and elect an NDP government. I have no doubt in that.

Congrats to Jack Layton, boo-hoo to Ignatieff and Duceppe. And watch yourself Harper, when Canada finds out who you really are, you're majority will turn into official opposition at best in the next election!

[Gorilla]

We have an NDP opposition of approximately 105 seats.

The Liberals have taken a major blow down to approximately 30 seats.

http://newsimg.ngfiles.com/97000/97703_He_is_THAT_awesome.jpg

[mosfeld]

I suggest all Canadian comrades take a look at RCP's boycott program. Take a look at JMPs "Vote With Your Feet" series over at his blog, "MLM Mayhem! (http://moufawad-paul.blogspot.com/)"

[Gorilla]

I suggest all Canadian comrades take a look at RCP's boycott program. Take a look at JMPs "Vote With Your Feet" series over at his blog, "MLM Mayhem! (http://moufawad-paul.blogspot.com/)"

Bit late for that, now.

[posthuman]

I will only vote for an avowed Marxist.

[Die Rote Fahne]

I will only vote for an avowed Marxist.

I want to know how electing a revolutionary MP would do anything for the revolutionary left? Maybe it would gain more popularity...maybe. But only electorally.

A progressive candidate will vote against the right and for the left. Whether they are a Marxist MP or an NDP MP.

The difference? A Marxist MP isn't going to get elected. Nor should we Marxists waste our time trying to get elected.

[mosfeld]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-76BJtJ5FIN8/TZKt5R51EVI/AAAAAAAAAgI/c_06_iqhGrE/s1600/poster2_EN.jpg

[danyboy27]

Here in Quebec the NDP wiped out the Bloc and the liberal, and took away 50% of the tories seat.

the conservative still won the majority, liberal right wing voter decided to switch side for the conservative, and the left wing liberal switched for the NDP in the west.

[Red Commissar]

Here in Quebec the NDP wiped out the Bloc and the liberal, and took away 50% of the tories seat.

the conservative still won the majority, liberal right wing voter decided to switch side for the conservative, and the left wing liberal switched for the NDP in the west.

Yeah, I was wondering what was happening with the BQ's implosion at the polls. What factors contributed to their collapse and led people to vote for NDP?

Though I did find it amusing somewhat that Harper moved from a minority to a majority. I guess like Hailtothethief said though, with such a majority and no requirement to work with other groups, he can institute what they really want and the full blame of it will go onto them.

Though of course other parties will be waiting to pick up the mess.

[Octavian]

So who else is looking forward to the New Democratic Liberal party?

[danyboy27]

Yeah, I was wondering what was happening with the BQ's implosion at the polls. What factors contributed to their collapse and led people to vote for NDP?

Though I did find it amusing somewhat that Harper moved from a minority to a majority. I guess like Hailtothethief said though, with such a majority and no requirement to work with other groups, he can institute what they really want and the full blame of it will go onto them.

Though of course other parties will be waiting to pick up the mess.


People where fed up with the bloc obsession of federalism and separation, they wanted to find someone to fight with the Conservatives, that that happened.

Incidentally that might just be enough to re-ignite the whole separation issue within the provincial governement, beccause even tho most of Quebecker voted for the NDP, they are quite pissed that the rest of canada perssist in voting for a conservative dumbass and would be willing to vote yes in the next provincial referendum and break away from Canada to escape the conservative destructive policies.

[danyboy27]

So who else is looking forward to the New Democratic Liberal party?


Its called the new democratic party, not the new democratic liberal party.

[RedAnarchist]

Its called the new democratic party, not the new democratic liberal party.

Perhaps he was suggesting a merger or coalition between the two parties?

[blake 3:17]

Judy Rebick on the election: http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/judes/2011/05/morning-after-where-are-we-and-where-do-we-go-here

Thom Walkom on it: http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/984534--walkom-ndp-surge-gave-conservatives-coveted-majority

A revolutionary socialist perspective: http://newsocialist.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=430%3Athe-conservative-majority-and-the-left-a-few-notes-to-begin-the-discussion&catid=53%3Ablog&Itemid=68

[danyboy27]

Perhaps he was suggesting a merger or coalition between the two parties?

Well, its quite possible the liberal party could just merge with the NDP.

centrist politics are always shit anyway, its about time those dude realize it

[RedStarOverChina]

Let's all support the NDP, so that they can turn into the British Labour Party and start waging wars sooner.

Then again, maybe by then there would be a NNDP, and lefties would still support it in droves.

Fer cryin out loud.

[danyboy27]

Let's all support the NDP, so that they can turn into the British Labour Party and start waging wars sooner.

Then again, maybe by then there would be a NNDP, and lefties would still support it in droves.

Fer cryin out loud.

I support the NDP when they do the right thing for the workers, and condemn them for their stupid decisions, libya for exemple.

But of course i guess i could ''Vote with my foot'' and allow the conservatives to turn this place into a neocon Hellhole in the hope that it will trigger a revolution from the bottom up in the same way some german marxist supported or ignored hitler.

We all know what this attitude produce: nothing.

Voting alone dont do squat of course, that why its important to be active in our community, appeal to the working class, promote progressive idea and initiative while remaining critical of the social democrats.

[CHEtheLIBERATOR]

Im wondering hailtothetheif if you really are a communist or anarchist because why would you be voting. Canada is a capitalist country and voting would be supporting the state of canada. But that's just me, I'm anti-government so I don't vote

[Octavian]

Well, its quite possible the liberal party could just merge with the NDP.

centrist politics are always shit anyway, its about time those dude realize it
Exactly and with Ignatieff ready to step down it seems like it would be a better move for the left but still put us one step closer to Americanization.

Im wondering hailtothetheif if you really are a communist or anarchist because why would you be voting. Canada is a capitalist country and voting would be supporting the state of canada. But that's just me, I'm anti-government so I don't vote
Voting actually supports the worker considering some of the policies the NDP promote are pro-worker and the fact that we payed for the fucking thing.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Im wondering hailtothetheif if you really are a communist or anarchist because why would you be voting. Canada is a capitalist country and voting would be supporting the state of canada. But that's just me, I'm anti-government so I don't vote

I'm a Marxist.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Mainstream hat: Bye, bye, Fibs and Bloquisites. The NDP shouldn't listen to Fib "merger" screams and some Conservative voter "Quebec one-time wonder" chatter. They now have an apparatus to connect the unknown MPs with voters. The NDP should also adopt a "50 state strategy" and make dents in the Conservative strongholds out west. :)

Class hat: I hope the decimation of those two above parties opens up room for (1) reasonable compromise and cooperation between the Conservatives and NDP on Senate reform and MM PR (maybe as part of some "honeymoon" period in the first few months seeing the end of, say, the gun registry), and (2) a left-of-NDP party, since it's inevitable the NDP will move at least somewhat to the right. It's the farce to the tragedy of the scabby formation and politics of British Labour at the expense of their Fibs. Again, I would suggest that any such left-of-NDP party have socially revolutionary principles, concrete approach to the state, radical social reform past Bastard Keynesianism, and appropriate doses of populism, as well as and target Conservative strongholds too.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Mainstream hat: Bye, bye, Fibs and Bloquisites. The NDP shouldn't listen to Fib "merger" screams and some Conservative voter "Quebec one-time wonder" chatter. They now have an apparatus to connect the unknown MPs with voters. The NDP should also adopt a "50 state strategy" and make dents in the Conservative strongholds out west. :)

Class hat: I hope the decimation of those two above parties opens up room for (1) reasonable compromise and cooperation between the Conservatives and NDP on Senate reform and PR (maybe as part of some "honeymoon" period in the first few months seeing the end of, say, the gun registry), and (2) a left-of-NDP party, since it's inevitable the NDP will move at least somewhat to the right. It's the farce to the tragedy of the scabby formation and politics of British Labour at the expense of their Fibs. Again, I would suggest that any such left-of-NDP party have socially revolutionary principles, concrete approach to the state, radical social reform past Bastard Keynesianism, and appropriate doses of populism, as well as and target Conservative strongholds too.

The NDP has to be careful NOT to move to the right. The Quebec vote was made up largely of the centre-left progressive vote and they will easily turn back to the progressive seperatism of the BQ if the NDP decide to regress from social democracy to the way of the Labor Party in the UK.

The left of NDP party that would raise in popularity if the NDP were to go right, would be the Green Party of Canada.

[Die Neue Zeit]

The Greens aren't a leftist party.

[Die Rote Fahne]

The Greens aren't a leftist party.

Lol, they may not be internationally, but the Canadian Greens are fairly close to the NDP on social and economic issues. Sometimes further left.

- End the drug war
- pro gay rights
- pull out of afghanistan
- higher corporate taxes

Just check out their platform, they may not be social democrats, but they are close.

[Demogorgon]

Im wondering hailtothetheif if you really are a communist or anarchist because why would you be voting. Canada is a capitalist country and voting would be supporting the state of canada. But that's just me, I'm anti-government so I don't vote
If voting is inherently supporting the "capitalist state", I take it you then believe that Universal Suffrage was a waste of time and the left should never have supported it?

[agnixie]

It's funny because the waffle (NDP's old revolutionary wing, and yes it had one - abolition of the monarchy, of private property, of the commonwealth, etc) had more support than all the other leftoid personality cults in Canada ever managed to muster. I mean, maybe besides anarchists and non-avowed communists.

I have no illusions about the state, but I might as well try to make it more bearable while I'm doing education and anarchist agitprop. It's not like fascism led to a communist germany out of disgust.

[nickdlc]

But of course i guess i could ''Vote with my foot'' and allow the conservatives to turn this place into a neocon Hellhole in the hope that it will trigger a revolution from the bottom up in the same way some german marxist supported or ignored hitler.They are going to do it anyway, with the NDP getting the most seats it's ever had.


Voting actually supports the worker considering some of the policies the NDP promote are pro-worker and the fact that we payed for the fucking thing. This is bullshit, the NDP and the Liberals are virtually indistinguishable and even take some of their policies from the conservative party.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/982962--walkom-he-s-not-lenin-he-s-just-jack

To come on a revolutionary left website and spout this crap is a disgrace.

[blake 3:17]

The Green program was the best of the bunch.

[blake 3:17]

I hope the decimation of those two above parties opens up room for (1) reasonable compromise and cooperation between the Conservatives and NDP on Senate reform and PR (maybe as part of some "honeymoon" period in the first few months seeing the end of, say, the gun registry), and (2) a left-of-NDP party, since it's inevitable the NDP will move at least somewhat to the right. It's the farce to the tragedy of the scabby formation and politics of British Labour at the expense of their Fibs. Again, I would suggest that any such left-of-NDP party have socially revolutionary principles, concrete approach to the state, radical social reform past Bastard Keynesianism, and appropriate doses of populism, as well as and target Conservative strongholds too.

I'm doubtful on Senate reform. My sympathy is actually with the old Reform policy, and not the recent Conservative practice or NDP's abolition policy.

I'd love to see a party to the left of the NDP. Last round I voted Green essentially as a protest vote for Proportional Representation. Personal issues were involved too, but not decisive. The CP did very poorly, I think the CPC ML did better, but there's nothing on the federal level that has any real support.

[danyboy27]

They are going to do it anyway, with the NDP getting the most seats it's ever had.
.
but at least i didnt just stood by jaded like the rest of the leftists who didnt do shit about it. and Beside, the NDP will expose the absurdity of many conservatives policies, not all of course, they are social democrats after all, but if it help some people to wake the fuck up and be aware of whats going on in our political system and our economy, that would be worth it.


[QUOTE=nickdlc;2100892]T
This is bullshit, the NDP and the Liberals are virtually indistinguishable and even take some of their policies from the conservative party.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/982962--walkom-he-s-not-lenin-he-s-just-jack

To come on a revolutionary left website and spout this crap is a disgrace.[/QUOTE

Its obvious that the social democrat are not revolutionary in any sort of way, nobody is saying that. and of course many of their policies are inspired by the liberal and the tories, this is a bourgeois political party, what do you fucking expect, Layton citing karl marx at the common?

We all know here that the social democrats will never end capitalism, they can only make it slighty nicer.

and that the point of voting for them during election time, nothing more nothing less.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Lol, they may not be internationally, but the Canadian Greens are fairly close to the NDP on social and economic issues. Sometimes further left.

- End the drug war
- pro gay rights
- pull out of afghanistan
- higher corporate taxes

Just check out their platform, they may not be social democrats, but they are close.

Politically speaking they've been smooching with the Fibs. There are right-wing "fiscal conservatives" in that lot.

[Die Rote Fahne]

I am going to make my prediction for 4 years from now in the next election. This is how I see the effect of this election playing out:

A small NDP minority, with conservative opposition, and a Liberal Party at around the same seats, or slightly higher. The Greens keeping their one seat, maybe even gaining a couple if disheartened liberals turn to the Greens.

The only other view is a Conservative minority result, which will end in an NDP-Liberal coalition government.

The reason? The NDP rise will add to their support in the next election, nationwide, allowing them (where they were second or a close third, to gain first place--as well as an end to strategic voters who would vote NDP if they thought they'd win, as well as strategic liberal voters now voting NDP). The vote splitting that gave Harper a majority will not occur in the same ridings, instead either the Liberal or NDP will get those ridings.

[nickdlc]

but at least i didnt just stood by jaded like the rest of the leftists who didnt do shit about it.

As if voting is "doing something about it" The only way austerity measures can be combated is by actual resistance. I'm not a jaded leftist, no matter what happens the NDP won't do shit and it's our job to tell people that.


the NDP will expose the absurdity of many conservatives policies Jack will act tough but in the end Harpers policies are going through.


We all know here that the social democrats will never end capitalism, they can only make it slighty nicer.

That's the problem, social democrats can't even make it slightly nicer any more. Maybe instead of being an apologist for the NDP you should tell people why social democracy will never solve the problems inherent in this system.


I am going to make my prediction for 4 years from now in the next election. This is how I see the effect of this election playing out:

If the NDP wants more seats it has to move even more to the centre merging with the liberals would be a wise choice. danyboy25 will tell us why voting for that new party is progressive.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Politically speaking they've been smooching with the Fibs. There are right-wing "fiscal conservatives" in that lot.

Green Party of Canada economic platform:



Green jobs. Create thousands of jobs through investment in renewable energy, expanding passenger rail and modernizing freight, retrofitting thousands of buildings to high standards for energy efficiency.
Smart economic stimulus. Expand access to employment insurance for those who paid into it, while protecting the pensions of retired Canadians. Reduce EI and CPP contributions for businesses.
Fair global trade. Reform, revise and rethink our trade agreements. Trade is a part of a sustainable future only when it is fair for all.
Healthy industry. A healthy agriculture sector, with support for those who wish to transition to organic farming. A healthy fishery, with an end to devastating draggers. A sustainable forest industry with more emphasis on value added, and less raw log or unprocessed pulp export. More jobs for more people making real things.
Cut wasteful subsidies. End the failed strategy of throwing good money after bad in corporate bail-outs for big business, and subsidies to nuclear and fossil fuels.
Get the prices right. Get the prices right for long-term sustainability. Avoid structural deficits. Implement a revenue-neutral carbon pricing architecture to modernize our economy. Build a “Made in Canada” Green economy.

Now, I'm not sure what is so fiscally conservative about it.

[Die Rote Fahne]

If the NDP wants more seats it has to move even more to the centre merging with the liberals would be a wise choice. danyboy25 will tell us why voting for that new party is progressive.

I disagree. The NDP will remain a social democratic party. It will NOT move to the centre. It will NOT merge with the liberals.

However, we will see how this plays out in the next 4-5 years.

[danyboy27]

As if voting is "doing something about it" The only way austerity measures can be combated is by actual resistance. I'm not a jaded leftist, no matter what happens the NDP won't do shit and it's our job to tell people that.

Its our job to indeed take action, and voting is merely an action like another, it dosnt stop people to get more involved and to resist.




Jack will act tough but in the end Harpers policies are going through.

and that how you make people interested in politics and in what happen around them. Leftist have been politicly silenced for decades by the liberal politics, people are asleep and a polarisation of politics in a left vs right action have strong potential to wake some folks up.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Now, I'm not sure what is so fiscally conservative about it.

The basic premise of being "fiscally conservative" is "balanced budgets."

[agnixie]

The basic premise of being "fiscally conservative" is "balanced budgets."

Someone should tell that to fiscal conservatives - also there are quite a few movements on the left that would rather balance than make public services dependent on the good will of stockbrokers; of course they also don't think cutting taxes is responsible.