Why am I being discriminated against?

[a rebel]

I have red hair, and I swear its like being black during segregation, Every day someone calls me a ginger, or fire crotch. I understand if your my friend and we are joking with each other, but its even random people every day! I think since these over privileged assholes I go to high school with in a rather right wing place can't hate on black people anymore for fear of getting beat up. So I'm their scapegoat, it really pisses me off but what can I do? Its not like I can fight every person over it, and starting a red head gang would be even worse. Any advice?

[Ele'ill]

Not to trivialize your situation but it's a bit different than 'black during segregation'. Bullying can be traumatic and extremely violent at times but from my experience it grows less and less prevalent as people get older although I won't say it completely goes away. I know you are fine the way you are and you do too.

[gorillafuck]

I have red hair, and I swear its like being black during segregationNo it's not. That's a shitty situation but it's really not like being black during segregation.

[Agent Ducky]

That sucks... I would just dye it blue or fire engine red ("My hair is communist!") or something ridiculous. But that's just me...

All I can say is pretend like you don't care about what they're saying... They might stop if they think they're not affecting you.

[Invader Zim]

No it's not. That's a shitty situation but it's really not like being black during segregation.

Well, I don't think it is fair to judge how harshly an individual has been treated until you are aware of their entire story. I recall reading about a teeenager who committed suicide following an extensive and horrific bullying campaign directed at him because he had red hair. It seems a little crass to suggest discrimination and bullying directed at red-headed people can in no way be considered as bad as that directed against black individuals during the segregation era when there are documented instances of just such discrimination that have been so vile as to drive people to the extreme measure of actively ending their own life. I agree that the form of the discrimination is entirely different, but I don't agree that it cannot be as damaging for an individual.

As a victim of bullies while a schoolboy I can very much empathise with the abject horror of having to return to physical and mental abuse on a daily basis during the alledgedly "happiest time" of ones life, all due to the fact that you look, sound or act differently from those other children who choose to take exception to that fact. Ok, it isn't institutionalised racism operated at a national level, but to suggest that a lengthy and systematic campaign of intimidation cannot be just as harmful to an individual is based on shocking ignorance and, I suspect, is part of the widespread acceptance of - or at least blind eye to - bullying.

[PhoenixAsh]

on a related side note:

Bullying leaves lasting psychological trauma which can hamper development and express itself during a later age in all kinds of psychological and intra social behaviour.

[Le Libérer]

I have red hair, and I swear its like being black during segregation, Every day someone calls me a ginger, or fire crotch. I understand if your my friend and we are joking with each other, but its even random people every day! I think since these over privileged assholes I go to high school with in a rather right wing place can't hate on black people anymore for fear of getting beat up. So I'm their scapegoat, it really pisses me off but what can I do? Its not like I can fight every person over it, and starting a red head gang would be even worse. Any advice?

Are you serious?

[a rebel]

okay, i definitely spoke a little too much out of frustration segregation was a lot worse (obviously).

[Nehru]

Why do I get the feeling that the OP is one of those 'there is racism against whites' crybabies.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Bullying in the American public school system can be horrific, although I would not put it on the same level as racism. Bullying someone because of the color of their hair is insane.

Its difficult to give advice not knowing the specifics of the situation. You can take comfort in the fact that the people who are bullying you are deeply insecure themselves. They choose the only form of affirmation they can find in solidarity against a kid who is perceived as different.You can also take comfort in knowing you are far from the only one-bullying in US schools today is endemic. The US school system is among the worst in the developed world. Its purpose is to indoctrinate kids to be obedient cogs in the capitalist system.

Is there a teacher/guidance/counselor you can confide in and discuss strategies for dealing with this?

There are now are a number of books written for teen agers on how to deal with bullys, although I can't recommend anything.

Yeah, high school sucks, big time. To a teenager it seems like forever but it will eventually end. After you serve your time you'll be free.When you're in prison, umm...I mean high school, try to use it instead of letting it use you. Read as much as you can and learn, for yourself, not the system.

...and tell the bullies to go fuck themselves.

[Queercommie Girl]

Why do I get the feeling that the OP is one of those 'there is racism against whites' crybabies.


Actually there is racism against "whites", but mostly from other whites, e.g. East Europeans face racism in Britain for instance.

The whole category of "white" is pretty useless, since there is no such thing as the "white race" anyway, it's just a social construction. People face racism due to a variety of factors, often due to their class, economic status and national origin. To reduce everything down to just "skin colour" is pretty ridiculous.

Racism is much more than just "skin deep".

[brigadista]

Actually there is racism against "whites", but mostly from other whites, e.g. East Europeans face racism in Britain for instance.

The whole category of "white" is pretty useless, since there is no such thing as the "white race" anyway, it's just a social construction. People face racism due to a variety of factors, often due to their class, economic status and national origin. To reduce everything down to just "skin colour" is pretty ridiculous.

Racism is much more than just "skin deep".

im not going to get into the prejudice vs racism debate but what i would say is you can change you hair colour but not your skin colour.

However, NO ONE should have to change their hair colour or endure the sort of bullying described by the rebel based upon stupid ignorant prejudice - i would not condone that in any way.

[Queercommie Girl]

im not going to get into the prejudice vs racism debate but what i would say is you can change you hair colour but not your skin colour.

However, NO ONE should have to change their hair colour or endure the sort of bullying described by the rebel based upon stupid ignorant prejudice - i would not condone that in any way.

Actually I wasn't specifically talking about this issue. Obviously being discriminated against on the basis of one's hair colour is not racism. My point is that racism is much more than just discrimination based on "skin colour". East Europeans face racism in the UK even though they are also "white".

Only some insane mental degenerate from Stormfront would believe there is any kind of "white unity" on a "racial" basis.

[ZeroNowhere]

Why do I get the feeling that the OP is one of those 'there is racism against whites' crybabies.I don't know.

[brigadista]

Actually I wasn't specifically talking about this issue. Obviously being discriminated against on the basis of one's hair colour is not racism. My point is that racism is much more than just discrimination based on "skin colour". East Europeans face racism in the UK even though they are also "white".

Only some insane mental degenerate from Stormfront would believe there is any kind of "white unity" on a "racial" basis.

yep eastern europeans are the new irish in british eyes....

[IndependentCitizen]

yep eastern europeans are the new irish in british eyes....

I disagree, I personally believe Muslims are the new Irish in Britain, constant ridicule from the media, and they have organisations such as the EDL, BNP and etc who express they wanna stop Islam's 'further control' over British life.

[Queercommie Girl]

I disagree, I personally believe Muslims are the new Irish in Britain, constant ridicule from the media, and they have organisations such as the EDL, BNP and etc who express they wanna stop Islam's 'further control' over British life.

I agree Muslims face even more problems, but East European immigrant workers face a lot of racism in Britain too, and so do Chinese immigrant workers from rural areas who are uneducated. (Educated urban Chinese immigrants are a "higher caste" and are in a different category)

[Zav]

Insecure people always look for someone to bully. It makes them feel like they have a 25cm penis.

[Luís Henrique]

I have red hair, and I swear its like being black during segregation, Every day someone calls me a ginger, or fire crotch. I understand if your my friend and we are joking with each other, but its even random people every day! I think since these over privileged assholes I go to high school with in a rather right wing place can't hate on black people anymore for fear of getting beat up. So I'm their scapegoat, it really pisses me off but what can I do? Its not like I can fight every person over it, and starting a red head gang would be even worse. Any advice?

Report any bullying to school authorities. Do the same to your close family. If things get worse and you have evidence of actual abuse, consider reporting it to police. You are not a victim of systemic prejudice, so the establishment would normally work for you, not against you.

If there is no real abuse, but mere annoying stupidity, ignore them or make similar commentaries about their physical appearance.

Luís Henrique

[RedAnarchist]

Insecure people always look for someone to bully. It makes them feel like they have a 25cm penis.

Even those who are female-bodied and insecure, or transwomen and insecure?

[ZeroNowhere]

Even those who are female-bodied and insecure, or transwomen and insecure?Figurative penises are gender-neutral.

[Tomhet]

As leftists, we should NOT tolerate this sort of bullying..

[IndependentCitizen]

I agree Muslims face even more problems, but East European immigrant workers face a lot of racism in Britain too, and so do Chinese immigrant workers from rural areas who are uneducated. (Educated urban Chinese immigrants are a "higher caste" and are in a different category)

I can see where you're coming from - however, the Irish were persecuted through the media too. I rarely see a report on Eastern European/Chinese migrant workers. That's not to say it doesn't happen, I just think because of 7/7 most papers turn on them.

It's a depressing review of racism in Britain :(

[TC]

I have red hair, and I swear its like being black during segregation,

That must be so awful - having to use segregated facilities because the law prevents you from living in non-red-head neighborhoods, going to non-red-head schools, or even riding at the front of a bus with non-red-heads or eating in the non-red-head section of a restaurant.

Of course you can't do anything about it since, as a red head, when you try to register to vote, you'll either be denied outright or presented with a literacy test and told you failed regardless of what you wrote or read. And, while there is technically no law prohibiting red heads from voting anymore, since laws in half the country specify that you can only vote if your (non-red headed) grandparents did, red heads are functionally prohibited from voting.

And don't even think about about dating a black haired, brown haired, or blonde member of the opposite sex - if you tried that you'd be lynched by a gang of non-red-heads and the police and courts wouldn't do anything about it.

...


Oh wait, does that not happen?

Then shut the fuck up.

[Fulanito de Tal]

I have red hair, and I swear its like being black during segregation, Every day someone calls me a ginger, or fire crotch. I understand if your my friend and we are joking with each other, but its even random people every day! I think since these over privileged assholes I go to high school with in a rather right wing place can't hate on black people anymore for fear of getting beat up. So I'm their scapegoat, it really pisses me off but what can I do? Its not like I can fight every person over it, and starting a red head gang would be even worse. Any advice?


Join a group of kids that are against discrimination. If it doesn't exist, start it! Ask a teacher to help you with the group. You could have mutual support meetings and show strength in solidarity with others. Once the administration learns about your group, and in turn, what has lead to it, you will probably see that they will begin to support your cause...especially since your white :p

[Tomhet]

I agree with you TC, it's nothing like what blacks experience..
But it is STILL a form of bullying, and we don't know the extent of it..

[Nehru]

That must be so awful - having to use segregated facilities because the law prevents you from living in non-red-head neighborhoods, going to non-red-head schools, or even riding at the front of a bus with non-red-heads or eating in the non-red-head section of a restaurant.

Of course you can't do anything about it since, as a red head, when you try to register to vote, you'll either be denied outright or presented with a literacy test and told you failed regardless of what you wrote or read. And, while there is technically no law prohibiting red heads from voting anymore, since laws in half the country specify that you can only vote if your (non-red headed) grandparents did, red heads are functionally prohibited from voting.

And don't even think about about dating a black haired, brown haired, or blonde member of the opposite sex - if you tried that you'd be lynched by a gang of non-red-heads and the police and courts wouldn't do anything about it.

...


Oh wait, does that not happen?

Then shut the fuck up.

The best response to the OP so far - sarcasm mixed with a lot of substance.:thumbup1:

[IndependentCitizen]

Find all red-heads and start an uprising, Cartman did.

[Queercommie Girl]

I can see where you're coming from - however, the Irish were persecuted through the media too. I rarely see a report on Eastern European/Chinese migrant workers. That's not to say it doesn't happen, I just think because of 7/7 most papers turn on them.

It's a depressing review of racism in Britain :(

Unreported doesn't mean they don't exist. Most Chinese people who face severe problems in Britain tends to be from rural areas of China though. (In China urban and rural people are like two different castes) Also, a lot of the times, it is the richer ethnic Chinese who exploits their poor fellow countrymen, and not just the white British that discriminates against them. There is more economic inequality within the ethnic Chinese community than in any other community. See my post about the Chinese cockle pickers, and also about 10 years ago there was an incident where dozens of illegal Chinese immigrants literally suffocated to death at the back of a lorry as they were trying to illegally enter the UK.

[Queercommie Girl]

I agree with you TC, it's nothing like what blacks experience..
But it is STILL a form of bullying, and we don't know the extent of it..

Yes, all forms of bullying must be opposed, whether it's related to racism or not.

Why should racism stands out specifically? Sexism and queerphobia are just as bad as racism, for instance.

[Queercommie Girl]

I can see where you're coming from - however, the Irish were persecuted through the media too. I rarely see a report on Eastern European/Chinese migrant workers. That's not to say it doesn't happen, I just think because of 7/7 most papers turn on them.

It's a depressing review of racism in Britain :(

And on the topic of hate crimes against immigrant East Europeans:

Last year, in Aberdeen, there was a 57% rise in racist incidents recorded by the police. The biggest group of victims were Africans, closely followed by Eastern Europeans. This accords with research by the European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights which found that across the continent Central and Eastern Europeans are among the main victims of discrimination.

[IndependentCitizen]

Unreported doesn't mean they don't exist. Most Chinese people who face severe problems in Britain tends to be from rural areas of China though. (In China urban and rural people are like two different castes) Also, a lot of the times, it is the richer ethnic Chinese who exploits their poor fellow countrymen, and not just the white British that discriminates against them. There is more economic inequality within the ethnic Chinese community than in any other community. See my post about the Chinese cockle pickers, and also about 10 years ago there was an incident where dozens of illegal Chinese immigrants literally suffocated to death at the back of a lorry as they were trying to illegally enter the UK.


I can see where you're coming from - however, the Irish were persecuted through the media too. I rarely see a report on Eastern European/Chinese migrant workers. That's not to say it doesn't happen, I just think because of 7/7 most papers turn on them.

It's a depressing review of racism in Britain :(

I didn't say it didn't happen.

[Queercommie Girl]

I didn't say it didn't happen.

Ok. My point is that different groups face different kinds of racism in Britain, and not just Muslims. While I strongly oppose Islamophobia, I wouldn't want to see anti-Islamophobia being used by political Islamist forces for their own ends.

Another thing is that I don't agree with the excessive focus on "racism" by some socialists. Marxism is primarily based on class solidarity, not "racial solidarity". A poor white suffers more oppression than a rich and powerful black man like Obama.

[ZeroNowhere]

okay, i definitely spoke a little too much out of frustration segregation was a lot worse (obviously).I think that this fairly trivial point has been accepted by now. There is no need for continuous and off-topic lynching over an admitted hyperbole.

Oh, wait, it's not nearly as bad as lynching. How despicable of me.

[The Red Next Door]

I disagree, I personally believe Muslims are the new Irish in Britain, constant ridicule from the media, and they have organisations such as the EDL, BNP and etc who express they wanna stop Islam's 'further control' over British life.

No, Muslims are to the british and the West as the jews were to Nazi Germany, italy, and all of Europe and America.

[Queercommie Girl]

No, Muslims are to the british and the West as the jews were to Nazi Germany, italy, and all of Europe and America.

I wouldn't go that far.

Here in Britain, there are Muslim MPs even in the right-wing Conservative Party. Have you ever seen Jewish politicians in Nazi Germany?

Truth is, even within the Muslim community in Britain, there is a huge amount of economic inequality. Not all Muslims are equally oppressed, that's certain.

[The Red Next Door]

I wouldn't go that far.

Here in Britain, there are Muslim MPs even in the right-wing Conservative Party. Have you ever seen Jewish politicians in Nazi Germany?

Truth is, even within the Muslim community in Britain, there is a huge amount of economic inequality. Not all Muslims are equally oppressed, that's certain.

there probably were and they all got kick out of parliament

[Queercommie Girl]

there probably were and they all got kick out of parliament

Sorry, but that simply isn't factually true. There are Muslims MPs in Britain today.

If you think Islamophobia in the UK has reached the level of how Nazi Germany was against the Jews, then you have seriously exaggerated the political situation.

[BankHeist]

Insecure people always look for someone to bully. It makes them feel like they have a 25cm penis.

As though people with large penises are presumptively happier than people with small penises.

:rolleyes:

Check your own prejudices.

[manic expression]

Red-haired kids have to endure a ton of shit in school...I don't envy those who have to deal with that and I respect those who pull through it.

But it's so great how some here are focusing in on one sentence and poking fun at the whole thing. Yeah, instead of looking at how red-haired students face immense amounts of crap every single waking day for something they had no control over...let's make fun of them because of an ill-advised historical reference! Yeah, equality! :rolleyes:

Then shut the fuck up.

"Sista Resista" rides again! Do try to remember this enlightened response the next time you demand some self-flagellating form of "solidarity".

[gorillafuck]

Insecure people always look for someone to bully. It makes them feel like they have a 25cm penis.Why do some people reduce everything to something about dicks?

"Yes, that is often true about the behaviors of people who've grown up facing parental abuse. And if we take the penile approach to psychology, it becomes clear that..."

[coda]

Red or Orange Hair.. how spectacular!!!! Love, love, love...

red hair= = = ultra cool!!! lucky you!!! Yes!!!

[The Red Next Door]

Sorry, but that simply isn't factually true. There are Muslims MPs in Britain today.

If you think Islamophobia in the UK has reached the level of how Nazi Germany was against the Jews, then you have seriously exaggerated the political situation.

That really, do not mean shit. Well, in America. It is the case.

[Fawkes]

Why do I get the feeling that the OP is one of those 'there is racism against whites' crybabies.

Cause you're an asshole.


Then shut the fuck up.
No, you shut the fuck up. Numerous people have already pointed out the really inaccurate and detrimental usage of a particular metaphor and the OP has recognized this, you don't need to be an asshole to a person asking for advice on how to deal with abuse that is obviously negatively affecting them.


Anyway, most of the people in this thread have given good advice that I would suggest following. Remember that high school is four years of torture, but it is just that, four years. Also, standing up for yourself will not only diminish the amount of comments directed at you, but will also make you feel better about yourself (at least that's what I've noticed).


Also, the whole side discussion on racism in the U.K. is getting pretty far into "Oppression Olympics" territory. Racism exists, who has it worse or who faces a similar experience to who is pointless and detrimental to efforts to combat it.

[Invader Zim]

That must be so awful - having to use segregated facilities because the law prevents you from living in non-red-head neighborhoods, going to non-red-head schools, or even riding at the front of a bus with non-red-heads or eating in the non-red-head section of a restaurant.

Of course you can't do anything about it since, as a red head, when you try to register to vote, you'll either be denied outright or presented with a literacy test and told you failed regardless of what you wrote or read. And, while there is technically no law prohibiting red heads from voting anymore, since laws in half the country specify that you can only vote if your (non-red headed) grandparents did, red heads are functionally prohibited from voting.

And don't even think about about dating a black haired, brown haired, or blonde member of the opposite sex - if you tried that you'd be lynched by a gang of non-red-heads and the police and courts wouldn't do anything about it.

...


Oh wait, does that not happen?

Then shut the fuck up.

I realise that for individuals such as your self bullying is not as issue to be conserned about. You have had - from what I can tell - an upbringing largely free of the kind of systematic abuse being discussed. But until you have have received the kind of treatment being refered to in this thread then might I suggest you take your thoughts else where?

They do not belong here.

[Agent Ducky]

Zim is right... OK, the segregation analogy wasn't accurate, but that doesn't give everyone the right to be assholes about it. As a former victim of bullying, I totally understand, and the only thing I can say is that they do it because they know you're gonna react to it. If you pretend like you just don't give a shit, they'll eventually get bored and move on. Hopefully.

[TC]

I'm sorry, but I found the comparison of petty insults to American apartheid - the brutal post-slavery systematic humiliation and oppression of the race of people who the country was built off of - to be truly offensive and politically intolerable. It showed a fundamental failure to appreciate the scale and reality of U.S. racial segregation. It had the effect of diminishing the true horror of racial segregation by comparing it to something that, while a legitimate complaint, is many magnitudes less significant.

I am sorry for offending people but I am not at all sorry for the point I made. The notion that there is no 'hierarchy of oppression' - that all self-identified victims are victimized equally, and that making these distinctions is part of the problem - is simply bullshit. It denies the reality that discrimination and oppression comes not only in different forms but in different types and different levels of intensity and political importance. Even today, the 'plight' of redheads is not remotely equal to the conditions that black people face from the state and the institutions of white power. This isn't about people's feelings, its about the reality of power. No one ever got shot for being a redhead or pulled over by the cops or sold into slavery - there is zero legally enforced discrimination against red heads; segregation was a system of legally enforced and sanctioned discrimination against and oppression of blacks.

And I know other people made similar points. So what? I thought the comment made in the original post was intolerable and demanded an answer. I gave one. Thats part of what posting on a political forum is about.

[Tim Finnegan]

No one ever got shot for being a redhead or pulled over by the cops or sold into slavery - there is zero legally enforced discrimination against red heads; segregation was a system of legally enforced and sanctioned discrimination against and oppression of blacks.
Noting that discrimination against redheads is rooted squarely in historical anti-Irish and anti-Scots racism, and, I can assure you, both of those groups historically suffered very much the sort of experience you describe. Even if that aspect is absent from most contemporary anti-redhead discrimination (and that particular form of racism a much weaker force today that anti-black racism), this suggests to me that it can be thought of as acting as a sort of "rootless racism", a racist meme which is detached from its social-political purpose, so the experience may not be quite as distant as may be assumed by a non-redhead.

Which is not, of course, to say that the comparison was not hyperbolic, or that it wasn't in poor taste, simply that I don't think it was necessarily groundless.

[The Red Next Door]

Have anyone tried to run you down because you was a red head, i was almost run down, but it was not because of my hair color, it was my skin color.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Well, I don't think it is fair to judge how harshly an individual has been treated until you are aware of their entire story. I recall reading about a teeenager who committed suicide following an extensive and horrific bullying campaign directed at him because he had red hair. It seems a little crass to suggest discrimination and bullying directed at red-headed people can in no way be considered as bad as that directed against black individuals during the segregation era when there are documented instances of just such discrimination that have been so vile as to drive people to the extreme measure of actively ending their own life. I agree that the form of the discrimination is entirely different, but I don't agree that it cannot be as damaging for an individual.

As a victim of bullies while a schoolboy I can very much empathise with the abject horror of having to return to physical and mental abuse on a daily basis during the alledgedly "happiest time" of ones life, all due to the fact that you look, sound or act differently from those other children who choose to take exception to that fact. Ok, it isn't institutionalised racism operated at a national level, but to suggest that a lengthy and systematic campaign of intimidation cannot be just as harmful to an individual is based on shocking ignorance and, I suspect, is part of the widespread acceptance of - or at least blind eye to - bullying.

If your legitimizing the idea that bullying of gingers is even remotely close to the way blacks were treated during segregation, you should be shot.

They are different situations.

[Raubleaux]

I spit my drink when I read "fire crotch." Hadn't heard that one, haha.

[Nehru]

Funny how so many people are attacking TC when the latter is the only person to have made a coherent argument about how foolish it is to compare 'high school bullying' with the systematic discrimination against the black people for centuries, including slavery, segregation, Jim Crow laws, lynching, and whatnot.

[manic expression]

Funny how so many people are attacking TC when the latter is the only person to have made a coherent argument about how foolish it is to compare 'high school bullying' with the systematic discrimination against the black people for centuries, including slavery, segregation, Jim Crow laws, lynching, and whatnot.
You know, you're right. Bullied kids who make unsound historical comparisons are the real enemies of progress, and it's important that we mock and belittle them at every opportunity. My congratulations to the posters here who have taken such a bold stand against injustice.

:rolleyes:

[Queercommie Girl]

I'm sorry, but I found the comparison of petty insults to American apartheid - the brutal post-slavery systematic humiliation and oppression of the race of people who the country was built off of - to be truly offensive and politically intolerable. It showed a fundamental failure to appreciate the scale and reality of U.S. racial segregation. It had the effect of diminishing the true horror of racial segregation by comparing it to something that, while a legitimate complaint, is many magnitudes less significant.

I am sorry for offending people but I am not at all sorry for the point I made. The notion that there is no 'hierarchy of oppression' - that all self-identified victims are victimized equally, and that making these distinctions is part of the problem - is simply bullshit. It denies the reality that discrimination and oppression comes not only in different forms but in different types and different levels of intensity and political importance. Even today, the 'plight' of redheads is not remotely equal to the conditions that black people face from the state and the institutions of white power. This isn't about people's feelings, its about the reality of power. No one ever got shot for being a redhead or pulled over by the cops or sold into slavery - there is zero legally enforced discrimination against red heads; segregation was a system of legally enforced and sanctioned discrimination against and oppression of blacks.

And I know other people made similar points. So what? I thought the comment made in the original post was intolerable and demanded an answer. I gave one. Thats part of what posting on a political forum is about.

"Oppression olympics" is counter-productive strategically because there is no simple way to objectively and scientifically "measure" which group is the "most oppressed", and indeed, how exactly do you define such "groups" anyway? Would you consider dark-skinned South Asians as "black" for instance? Yet in America they are often put into the category of "Asian Americans". Ethnic South Asians are generally considered a "model minority", just like ethnic East Asians, and very much unlike blacks.

So to define human population groups simply on the basis of "skin colour" is too simplistic. Dark-skinned South Asians don't face the same kind of problems as those of Black African descent.

I have never denied the horrifying experience of Black slaves and workers in the white-dominated United States. But would you say for instance that it was definitely worse than the genocides experienced by the native Americans? How do you "measure" what's worse?

Different leftists always have different ideas about which group is the "most oppressed", and no-one ever agrees with one another. So this whole issue is a very divisive one. Not to mention Marxism always puts class solidarity above any kind of racial or ethnic solidarity.

As for "political importance", who are you to judge? Would you say the murder of a queer or trans person is less important than the murder of a Black African person? Why?

You seem to be very pro-Cuba. Yet until recently queer people were still systematically discriminated against in Cuba, just like Black African people were systematically discriminated against in the United States until several decades ago. But I never see you make as much a point about the former as about the latter. Are the lives of queers worth less in your eyes or something?

[Queercommie Girl]

Is being called a "slanty-eyed Chink" any better than being called a "black nigger"? I agree that "hair colour" is not a matter of racism in principle but to actively promote a kind of "oppression olympics" among those who suffer different kinds of racism, sexism and queerphobia etc really sucks.

[Invader Zim]

If your legitimizing the idea that bullying of gingers is even remotely close to the way blacks were treated during segregation, you should be shot.

They are different situations.

...:crying:


:rolleyes:
Go pester someone who cares what you think.

[Thirsty Crow]

Funny how so many people are attacking TC when the latter is the only person to have made a coherent argument about how foolish it is to compare 'high school bullying' with the systematic discrimination against the black people for centuries, including slavery, segregation, Jim Crow laws, lynching, and whatnot.
OP recognized the mistake. Obssessing about this point is futile and completely unappropriate as manifested in TC's response (belittling the experience because of that mistake in judgement). Your first comment (about whiny white folks who think they face racist prejudice) was also unappropriate and completely unfounded (since OP faces bullying and did not in any way imply that racism is a part of it).

[Luís Henrique]

Funny how so many people are attacking TC when the latter is the only person to have made a coherent argument about how foolish it is to compare 'high school bullying' with the systematic discrimination against the black people for centuries, including slavery, segregation, Jim Crow laws, lynching, and whatnot.

Her argument may have been coherent, but the way she put it was also very unhelpful.

And of course high school bullying is often directed against Blacks, so it is at the very least instrumental in the perpetuating of racism.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

If your legitimizing the idea that bullying of gingers is even remotely close to the way blacks were treated during segregation, you should be shot.

Oh, another foolish outlandish hyperbole. Let's now pick this issue and continually harass you for pages and pages because, you know, people who make outlandish and foolish hyperboles deserve to be shot.

Luís Henrique

[Nehru]

OP recognized the mistake.

The comments were made before the OP posted the second time recognizing his mistake.


Your first comment (about whiny white folks who think they face racist prejudice) was also unappropriate and completely unfounded (since OP faces bullying and did not in any way imply that racism is a part of it).

The OP compared his problem with the segregation of Blacks, so it was he who brought race into the picture, not I or anyone else. Had he simply stopped at bullying, none of this would have happened. Second, be honest: if a white person starts a thread about how they're being discriminated against (especially by contrasting it with the discrimination faced by Blacks), doesn't it raise a few eyebrows?

[Rafiq]

I have a large nose. People often poke fun at it, and have before. Does that mean I'm being "Discriminated against like blacks during segregation"?

[Nehru]

Her argument may have been coherent, but the way she put it was also very unhelpful.


How was it unhelpful? Can you quote the specific parts?

[Thirsty Crow]

How was it unhelpful? Can you quote the specific parts?
It was unhelpful because the argument basically excluded everything except the unappropriate analogy which practically resulted in belittling the described experience ("shut the fuck up" does not help either).

[ZeroNowhere]

I have a large nose. People often poke fun at it, and have before. Does that mean I'm being "Discriminated against like blacks during segregation"?I was about to comment on how ludicrous it was that this discussion was carrying on to the 3rd page of the thread despite the OP admitting to their mistake on the first half of the first page. You, however, have invalidated this comment by bringing it onto the 4th page as well.

Really, it's all well and good to dispute aesthetic considerations about the first post, but at this point we should really get on to the content somewhat or be quiet.

[The Red Next Door]

It was unhelpful because the argument basically excluded everything except the unappropriate analogy which practically resulted in belittling the described experience ("shut the fuck up" does not help either).

I feel sorry, for the kid. But people get beat up for much worst things than being a red head. Plus there are a lot of people who get pick on being a red head and they do not let it bother them. it kinda silly to compare being pick for just being red headed to being a victim of sysmatic racism is silly and you really should know better since you are an ethnicity that have been sysmaticly discriminated against in Western Europe.

I do not mean to be mean dude, but yes unless you have been not allow to go to the restroom, drink for a water fountain, go to a good school and pull over because you are a redhead, then like tc said, be quiet or explain your situation in a way that is not offensive.

I had got pick on my second day of college because i was wearing my hammer and sickle and didn't bother me none. Especially, since most people give me good comps about wearing it.

[Rafiq]

I was about to comment on how ludicrous it was that this discussion was carrying on to the 3rd page of the thread despite the OP admitting to their mistake on the first half of the first page. You, however, have invalidated this comment by bringing it onto the 4th page as well.

Really, it's all well and good to dispute aesthetic considerations about the first post, but at this point we should really get on to the content somewhat or be quiet.

I didn't read any of the pages, I just saw the first post.

[ZeroNowhere]

But people get beat up for much worst things than being a red head. Plus there are a lot of people who get pick on being a red head and they do not let it bother them.But the use of an hyperbole causes incomparable harm and a stain on the cosmos which cannot be ignored, and this horrible and harmful action must be met with radical censure over several centuries.

[Tim Finnegan]

Plus there are a lot of people who get pick on being a red head and they do not let it bother them.
That comes awfully close to victim-blaming...


I had got pick on my second day of college because i was wearing my hammer and sickle and didn't bother me none. Especially, since most people give me good comps about wearing it.Yeah, but when that happens you get to revel in your revolutionary martyrdom, so you win either way. ;)

[Invader Zim]

I have a large nose. People often poke fun at it, and have before. Does that mean I'm being "Discriminated against like blacks during segregation"?

Not "like", because plainly the oppression directed at the black community in the segregation era existed in a different form and was a ubiquitous system maintained by the ruling elite both in practise and in law. Clearly an extended bullying campaign directed at a single individual is different in that respect, but the scale of a problem does not imply that the discrimination faced by an individual suffering at the hands of bullies cannot be just as acute as even some of the most horrifying examples from the segregation era.

[727Goon]

Maybe its because you have no soul.

Sorry bro but if you're gonna compare being a ginger to being black during segregation I'm gonna ride on your ass.

[Ele'ill]

Maybe its because you have no soul.

Sorry bro but if you're gonna compare being a ginger to being black during segregation I'm gonna ride on your ass.

Not really a nice post here. This is a hint.

[727Goon]

Hey its not my fault the kids soft/racist enough to whine that even the negroes get treated better than him. Some people need to harden the fuck up. Thats all im gonna say cause I'm not trying to get banned or restricted or whatever.

[Property Is Robbery]

Hey its not my fault the kids soft/racist enough to whine that even the negroes get treated better than him. Some people need to harden the fuck up. Thats all im gonna say cause I'm not trying to get banned or restricted or whatever.
You called him a ginger.. you really shouldn't use the word that he was offended by in the first place. Also he is not "soft" because he is upset by daily harassment. Just because you might be "hard" and emotionless on the inside doesn't mean this kid needs to harden the fuck up. Say more. Say what's on your mind, you should get restricted for bullying the victim.

[Kuppo Shakur]

Ok, so to sum up:
Impressionable kids watching South Park =/= Oppression of black people.

But bullying does happen and can easily get out of hand. Telling a bullied kid to just "man up" is not helpful. Even if you "had it worse", as Doctor Seuss would have put it, "A case of discrimination is a case of discrimination, no matter how small."

[727Goon]

Getting bullied in school is not comparable to racism. Acting like it is shows how soft kids are getting these days. The OP pissed me right off tho cause he had the nerve to basically ***** about his white privilege, like other white kids weren't giving him the respect he deserves as a white person or something. Sorry but that shit gets no sympathy from me, cry about your white privilege elsewhere.

[Kuppo Shakur]

You're right there, they aren't comparable. I don't think anyone here is saying that. But as I said, it still deserves sympathy and attention.

[727Goon]

uh you probably didnt read the op then

[The Red Next Door]

That comes awfully close to victim-blaming...

Yeah, but when that happens you get to revel in your revolutionary martyrdom, so you win either way. ;)


No, I am not and it would help, if he explain the details of how he is being bullying.

[The Red Next Door]

Ok, so to sum up:
Impressionable kids watching South Park =/= Oppression of black people.

But bullying does happen and can easily get out of hand. Telling a bullied kid to just "man up" is not helpful. Even if you "had it worse", as Doctor Seuss would have put it, "A case of discrimination is a case of discrimination, no matter how small."


True ^, but he should not compare, it like that. It just show how uneducated, he is.

[The Red Next Door]

You called him a ginger.. you really shouldn't use the word that he was offended by in the first place. Also he is not "soft" because he is upset by daily harassment. Just because you might be "hard" and emotionless on the inside doesn't mean this kid needs to harden the fuck up. Say more. Say what's on your mind, you should get restricted for bullying the victim.

You are really being too political correct, he is not bullying the kid, again. This the problem with some of you white leftist, you do not understand how it is like to be black, he is justify in being upset, that some kid. Is whining and comparing his situation to being Black, it stupid to say something like that, he no better than the kids that pick on him.

I mean, he should put some dark skin make up on and pretend to be black for weeks, and maybe he will get the point.


I mean, you not going to get anywhere until you realize that you and i are not the same, we both workers, yes. but in some situations, you and i are not the same. that the fact and get over it and try to do something about it. Instead of pretending you get the same treatment as goon and i or anyother non white workering class person on here.

[La Comédie Noire]

Acting like it is shows how soft kids are getting these days.

It may have been stupid to compare being bullied in school to racism, but kids are no more "softer" than they used to be.

[Geiseric]

Make a friend who's older than the guys picking on you and much bigger, and be with him or her when you walk by them. Smoke some weed to calm your nerves, and work out in the weeks heading up to this. Shove the guy making fun of you while you have your friend, and call the bully a punk *****. Better yet, it feels good fucking with them stealthily. Get one of their books and like throw it away underneath everything in a trash can, so they have to pay for it.

[Pretty Flaco]

Maybe he's black and has red hair? Who knows. :rolleyes:

[727Goon]

It may have been stupid to compare being bullied in school to racism, but kids are no more "softer" than they used to be.

Today kids are the softest they've ever been but they think they're hard as fuck. Kids are growing up with this massive ego, like back in the day if you had a problem with someone and you fought them, that was it. If you got your ass beat, you went to gym and fuckin trained. Nowadays if someone gets their ass beat its always some "I'll see you later" bullshit and dumbass get their niggas to jump the dude or worse. Or they get depressed kill themselves or shoot up a school. Someone ends up getting put in the hospital or killed cause kids accept the fact that they got they're ass beat. It comes back to this kid cause he cant accept the fact that just cause hes getting picked on a little bit its not worse than fucking segregation.

[The Red Next Door]

If your legitimizing the idea that bullying of gingers is even remotely close to the way blacks were treated during segregation, you should be shot.

They are different situations.

No, he does not need to be shot, he need to be to be spray with make up and be black for a period of 3 months. or he need some picture to show him the light


http://www.psywar.org/psywar/images/race_lynching.jpg






http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_k07pirzBU34/S52hzXtWxTI/AAAAAAAAD9U/3lA9wrWqazo/s400/SixteenthStreetBaptistChurch.jpg








http://www.americanlynching.com/pic12.htm

http://www.americanlynching.com/photos-old.htm

[Pretty Flaco]

Today kids are the softest they've ever been but they think they're hard as fuck. Kids are growing up with this massive ego, like back in the day if you had a problem with someone and you fought them, that was it. If you got your ass beat, you went to gym and fuckin trained. Nowadays if someone gets their ass beat its always some "I'll see you later" bullshit and dumbass get their niggas to jump the dude or worse. Or they get depressed kill themselves or shoot up a school. Someone ends up getting put in the hospital or killed cause kids accept the fact that they got they're ass beat. It comes back to this kid cause he cant accept the fact that just cause hes getting picked on a little bit its not worse than fucking segregation.

Would you say that kids bullying each other is a good thing? What makes kids softer?

[727Goon]

Would you say that kids bullying each other is a good thing? What makes kids softer?

No it sucks but its a fact of life. I think its the way kids are being raised, like a combination of being surrounded by thug niggas and self esteem bullshit that tells everyone they're good at everything so everybody thinks they're hard or whatever else when they aren't, and that everything revolves around them.

[Property Is Robbery]

You are really being too political correct, he is not bullying the kid, again. This the problem with some of you white leftist, you do not understand how it is like to be black, he is justify in being upset, that some kid. Is whining and comparing his situation to being Black, it stupid to say something like that, he no better than the kids that pick on him.

I mean, he should put some dark skin make up on and pretend to be black for weeks, and maybe he will get the point.


I mean, you not going to get anywhere until you realize that you and i are not the same, we both workers, yes. but in some situations, you and i are not the same. that the fact and get over it and try to do something about it. Instead of pretending you get the same treatment as goon and i or anyother non white workering class person on here.

I understand I have a natural advantage in this country by being white, I hate that. I don't hate that I'm not discriminated against but that others are. And I can not relate. I'm just saying this kid was exaggerating and apologized for it. He was just frustrated and compared his situation to the worst thing he could think of. I do not think he believes that his situation is in anyway comparable to segregation.

[Pretty Flaco]

No it sucks but its a fact of life.

I don't think it has to be that way. At least not to the level of harassment based on skin/hair color. I can understand a little childhood teasing, but I've seen a kid get the shit beat out of him all because he was a ginger. There's nothing acceptable about that shit.

[727Goon]

I don't think it has to be that way. At least not to the level of harassment based on skin/hair color. I can understand a little childhood teasing, but I've seen a kid get the shit beat out of him all because he was a ginger. There's nothing acceptable about that shit.

Whats the solution then? I mean it'd be great if that kind of shit stopped in our lifetime but kids are gonna be kids and bullying will always happen. I know the solution in my personal life is I'm gonna teach my daughter how to fight when shes old enough, but also just generally not to get caught up in some bullshit. I'm not trying to sound like I'm so great for it or anything but I think if more parents did that less bullying like that would go on.

[Fawkes]

727Goon, you're a fucking idiot. Yeah, kids are getting harassed and beaten, the cure is for them to stop "*****ing" about it and "go to the gym" and become big, tough, macho men like you, right? You're fuckin pathetic, get outta here with the macho, tough guy bullshit.

[727Goon]

It's not tough guy bullshit its the way it is. Soft kids believing tough buy bullshit is why shit gets out of hand so quickly these days. Our kids are being raised in a culture that glamorizes being "real" and on the other hand tells everyone that they're good at everything, which gives kids an inflated ego. The fact is if you keep getting your ass beat in a fight you have two options if you dont want to keep getting your ass beat A. Get a whole bunch of your niggas or a gun or a knife and fuck up whoever beat you up or B. Accept that you got your ass beat, go to the boxing gym and train so you know how to fight and learn how to avoid fights in the first place. I think only a coward comes back after a fight with his boys or a weapon and it's much more helpful if you use the experience to better yourself. But anyways keep not really reading my posts looking for buzzwords since I didnt say shit about being big or macho or a man, good job.

[ZeroNowhere]

it stupid to say something like that, he no better than the kids that pick on him.Clearly uttering an exaggerated simile on Revleft is essentially equivalent to bullying.


uh you probably didnt read the op thenShockingly enough, exaggerated hyperbole using a paradigmatic example of a given situation is a common part of the modern informal vernacular, and is not meant to be taken seriously. The OP made it quite clear that they did not actually think the two literally equivalent on the first half of the first page. If one said that walking into a room was like walking into a warzone, or that a room looked like a hurricane had blown through it, it would be fairly bizarre if the listener were then to rant on about how war and hurricanes are far worse than a dirty room or argument, unless perhaps they were a stereotypical movie 'Nam vet.


Acting like it is shows how soft kids are getting these days.Wow, you're like Arnold Schwarzenegger without the keen intellect.


Some people need to harden the fuck up.It is good that you are illustrating how the OP simply needs to man up and get some balls rather than being all effete and such, but I'm fairly sure that the OP has not been whining about the same thing for 4 or 5 pages.


No, he does not need to be shot, he need to be to be spray with make up and be black for a period of 3 months. or he need some picture to show him the lightThis is seriously the first post in the thread to make the point that segregation was bad. Good job. I wonder how that went over everybody's head? Usually the Revleft inquisition is far more predictable than this and would have ranted on about it for a good few pages or so.

Oh, wait, clearly I am uneducated about Inquisitions, and need some pictures to show me the light as well.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/Torture_Inquisition.jpg

[manic expression]

Today kids are the softest they've ever been but they think they're hard as fuck. Kids are growing up with this massive ego, like back in the day if you had a problem with someone and you fought them, that was it. If you got your ass beat, you went to gym and fuckin trained. Nowadays if someone gets their ass beat its always some "I'll see you later" bullshit and dumbass get their niggas to jump the dude or worse. Or they get depressed kill themselves or shoot up a school. Someone ends up getting put in the hospital or killed cause kids accept the fact that they got they're ass beat. It comes back to this kid cause he cant accept the fact that just cause hes getting picked on a little bit its not worse than fucking segregation.
There's a big difference between fighting and bullying. The majority of bullying is non-physical. Plus, bullying is sanctioned by the dumbass "no tolerance" policy that equally punishes every member of a fight without regard for circumstance.

By the way, do you have any actual experience with bullying? It doesn't sound like you do. Kids who are hurt most by bullying aren't "soft kids believing tough guy shit", they're usually the quietest among the class and thus the easiest to isolate (aka the exact opposite of what you're saying). Victims of bullying don't usually "get their asses beat", the whole point of bullying is to torment a kid through humiliation and the threat of violence. Kids who fight back against bullies are punished at least as severely as the bullies, if not moreso. Lastly, you are aware that "going to the gym" isn't going to buff up a body all that much before a certain age, right?

[PhoenixAsh]

No it sucks but its a fact of life. I think its the way kids are being raised, like a combination of being surrounded by thug niggas and self esteem bullshit that tells everyone they're good at everything so everybody thinks they're hard or whatever else when they aren't, and that everything revolves around them.


I "know" some people who use this "fact of life" argument. Ironically enough they use it to justify of dismiss notions of racial eqaulity.

Lets not fall in the same pitt trap....shall we?

[PhoenixAsh]

....also.....gender roles in practice....

[The Red Next Door]

to the op: BTW, Those kids pick on you, because you are going to be someone and they are not. They have insecurities about themselves, remember that you are someone who is on the path of greatness, they are going to spend there lives being jerks. They jealous, do you have any special thing going for you?

[Tim Finnegan]

No it sucks but its a fact of life.
Why are you on this forum, exactly? :confused:

[Invader Zim]

Getting bullied in school is not comparable to racism. Acting like it is shows how soft kids are getting these days. The OP pissed me right off tho cause he had the nerve to basically ***** about his white privilege, like other white kids weren't giving him the respect he deserves as a white person or something. Sorry but that shit gets no sympathy from me, cry about your white privilege elsewhere.

On the contrary he was complaining that other kids weren't giving him the respect he deserves as a person just as, in the segregation era black people were not given the respect they diserved as people.

That is the point here.


No, he does not need to be shot, he need to be to be spray with make up and be black for a period of 3 months. or he need some picture to show him the light

Shouldn't you be off playing with other children your own age while the adults talk?

[I.O.T.M]

I sympathise with TS, I've had loads of people try and start fights with me simply because of my hair colour. It's in no way comparable to being black during segregation, though.

[Queercommie Girl]

I have a large nose. People often poke fun at it, and have before. Does that mean I'm being "Discriminated against like blacks during segregation"?

Hypothetically, it would depend. In theory there is nothing special about "skin colour". Discrimination based on skin colour becomes racism simply because a particular race (in the social sense) possesses dark skin, and this physical trait then becomes the basis of discrimination.

Suppose there is a race of people who have very large noses, and there is racial discrimination against them on the basis of having large noses, and there is even social segregation based on this fact. Then yes it would be as bad as racism based on skin colour.

Racism based on facial shape, like calling East Asians "slant-eyed", is in principle just as bad as racism based on skin colour. The reason why certain layers of East Asians may experience less racism than Blacks in America has nothing to do with physical traits, but is purely based on socio-economic status.

[Dr Mindbender]

Bullying based on aesthetic looks is only analogous to racist oppression when the aesthetic in question is synonomous as a racial characteristic.

[Dr Mindbender]

Racism based on facial shape, like calling East Asians "slant-eyed", is in principle just as bad as racism based on skin colour. The reason why certain layers of East Asians may experience less racism than Blacks in America has nothing to do with physical traits, but it purely based on socio-economic status.
Is worth noting that the caste system in india is based entirely on socio-economic status and family name.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

It's not tough guy bullshit its the way it is. Soft kids believing tough buy bullshit is why shit gets out of hand so quickly these days. Our kids are being raised in a culture that glamorizes being "real" and on the other hand tells everyone that they're good at everything, which gives kids an inflated ego. The fact is if you keep getting your ass beat in a fight you have two options if you dont want to keep getting your ass beat A. Get a whole bunch of your niggas or a gun or a knife and fuck up whoever beat you up or B. Accept that you got your ass beat, go to the boxing gym and train so you know how to fight and learn how to avoid fights in the first place. I think only a coward comes back after a fight with his boys or a weapon and it's much more helpful if you use the experience to better yourself. But anyways keep not really reading my posts looking for buzzwords since I didnt say shit about being big or macho or a man, good job.

There's some truth to this. For some kids, this works. I've known people (my Dad for one) who were viscously picked on. They worked out, trained, and became good at sports. They were able to physically intimidate people who picked on them and get some respect and popularity though sports.

This model doesn't work for everyone. What about the shy kid who doesn't like sports and holes up in the library reading poetry? What about the "geeky" kid who could probably hack any computer in existence but is picked on for poor social skills?

US society rewards people (in terms of popularity in high school but later in terms of "earning potential" as adults) with certain personality types.In high school this usually means the jocks,

It would be interesting to do a cross-cultural study of bullying. While it may happen with kids everywhere, extreme bullying seems unique to US society.I could be wrong about this but if I'm correct we can say there are other models of raising kids and other educational models,which are a lot more humane than what we have in the US.

From what I understand the Finnish educational system is supposed to be very progressive. Does bullying carry on to the same extent there?

What are the broader material causes of bullying?

[ZeroNowhere]

While it may happen with kids everywhere, extreme bullying seems unique to US society.It is present, and even traditional, in many places in India. There have been suicides and mental instability as a result. Although I haven't been to Sri Lanka, I've heard that it's also quite prevalent there.

[Pretty Flaco]

I have a friend and when his family moved to this really nice suburb of Indy (the place is called Carmel), he went to a new school there. He said nobody there except for a few kids were lower class and that people acted differently. He said really bad bullying, bloody fights, etc. just didn't exist.

I think this is probably a combination of both good environments: living in a well to do family, and attending school in a well to do area.

EDIT: income statistics:

"According to a 2007 estimate, the median income for a household in the city was $290,321, and the median income for a family was $373,394 .[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmel,_Indiana#cite_note-4) Males had a median income of $293,340 versus $162,943 for females. The per capita income (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Per_capita_income) for the city was $185,320. About 1.6% of families and 2.5% of the population were below the poverty line (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_line), including 2.5% of those under age 18 and 2.2% of those age 65 or over."

wikipedia

[Queercommie Girl]

727Goon,

I don't know what kind of point you are trying to make.

If you are saying that bullying would always exist under capitalism (or any other kind of class society), and that people should be prepared to fight against bullying, then I agree. Bullying can no more be removed in a capitalist society than general economic exploitation can be.

But if you are trying to say that bullying would simply always exist, forever, even in a communist society, then that's obviously ridiculous. In a socialist/communist society one of the goals of a genuine Marxist education programme would precisely be to remove bullying from schools completely.

Ultimately even something like bullying is a product of capitalism and class society. Once capitalism is destroyed, then bullying can potentially be removed too.

Obviously it will never be an "automatic" process, no more than the elimination of racism, sexism and queerphobia is an automatic process, but in a communist society potentially it could happen, just like potentially racism/sexism/queerphobia could all be eliminated.

[727Goon]

I love how everyone automatically assumes I'm talking about macho shit when I say kids need to harden up. I guess you missed the part where I talked about the importance of girls learning to fight. Hell some of the hardest motherfuckers I've come across in my life have been drag queens, I wouldnt fuck with one of them ever cause they can beat some ass. I've gotta go to work but I'll be back to respond to everyone later.

[Queercommie Girl]

I love how everyone automatically assumes I'm talking about macho shit when I say kids need to harden up. I guess you missed the part where I talked about the importance of girls learning to fight. Hell some of the hardest motherfuckers I've come across in my life have been drag queens, I wouldnt fuck with one of them ever cause they can beat some ass. I've gotta go to work but I'll be back to respond to everyone later.

Well, I can't speak for others, but that's not the assumption I made.

The only issue I have is that if you say under capitalism bullying would always exist then yes I agree, but if you think bullying will forever exist then I must disagree. I do expect bullying to be eliminated in a communist society.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Kids are bullied for being fat, having red hair, wearing a certain type of clothes, being academically superior, being academically inferior, etc.

Likelihood is, if you're being bullied because you're a ginger, it probably has nothing to do with the fact you're a ginger, and more with the fact that you're vulnerable to bullying, maybe you lack confidence, and you aren't standing up for yourself. They are using the fact that you're a ginger as a tool to bully you, odds are if you weren't a ginger, you'd still be bullied.

I know gingers who were bullied, I know gingers who were at the top of the social ladder in high school.

Punch the next guy to make fun of you in the face. Problem solved.

[Ele'ill]

I love how everyone automatically assumes I'm talking about macho shit when I say kids need to harden up.

I don't think the issue is 'hardening up' because within a lot of society 'hardening up' means reciprocating the bullying. There isn't a healthy structure set up there. From what I've learned and from what I've seen 'kids these days' kill each other for less then what the after-school boxing matches of yesterdecade were for.


I guess you missed the part where I talked about the importance of girls learning to fight. Hell some of the hardest motherfuckers I've come across in my life have been drag queens, I wouldnt fuck with one of them ever cause they can beat some ass.

I don't understand the relevance.

[Queercommie Girl]

Punch the next guy to make fun of you in the face. Problem solved.


Is that just a tactic to be used under capitalism, or is it what you think the education system should teach kids as well in a communist society?

And what about girls who are bullied, but due to their natural disadvantages in physical strength, cannot respond so effectively in such a way?

[TC]

And what about girls who are bullied, but due to their natural disadvantages in physical strength, cannot respond so effectively in such a way?

Thats a ridiculous and weirdly sexist statement - there is a tremendous overlap in physical strength between groups of males and groups of females at all ages but even more dramatically so for school age children and young teenagers. Comments like this perpetuate a a social meme of general female weakness and general male strength when clearly variation from individual to individual can be far more dramatic than variation between group averages.

[Queercommie Girl]

Thats a ridiculous and weirdly sexist statement - there is a tremendous overlap in physical strength between groups of males and groups of females at all ages but even more dramatically so for school age children and young teenagers. Comments like this perpetuate a a social meme of general female weakness and general male strength when clearly variation from individual to individual can be far more dramatic than variation between group averages.

Obviously there is overlap, and personally I admire women who are strong and willing to fight back, but you cannot deny there is a statistical difference between males and females in terms of physical strength. Acknowledging reality isn't sexist. (However, of course with technology it is potentially possible to remove this statistical difference - my views on gender are certainly not "essentialist", but they are not just based on abstract "political correctness" either, they are based on simple materialist realism)

But at any rate the primary argument of mine is that a communist education system shouldn't simply teach kids like some people are suggesting here. For all the problems of the Cuban system, in Cuban schools there is far less bullying than in US schools, and the children are generally more disciplined and study better.

[El Chuncho]

Bullying based on aesthetic looks is only analogous to racist oppression when the aesthetic in question is synonomous as a racial characteristic.

Ah, but races do not exist, so racial characteristics do not either. ;) I mean if you are to claim that certain environmental looks, such as black skin, are racial then people might as well claim that red hair is. Racial oppression is truly ''the oppression of what some people think are races, but are not''.

[Omsk]

and the children are generally more disciplined and study better.
And that is what matters,discipline,order and enthusiasm.
Thats what a great number of socialist states had (those in Europe) A great education system.
Now,some of you 'leftists' will probably jump to a conclusion that 'the horrible Stalin-inspired communists brainwashed the children!!!'

That is not true.
It simply isn't.

As i lived in a socialist country unlike the majority of you,i can actually speak about the education system and life in general.
The education system was great,discipline,order,enthusiasm and comradry were at very high levels,drugs,bullying and such things were very rare.

We learned history,but not rewritten history and propaganda,we learned the truth for a change.Unlike most of the kids in capitalist states,who were greatly indoctrinated.

We had things like,aditional work,pioneer activities,and much more.My grandfather was a school professor after the war,and i remember him truly liking his job,he was a good educator.
And these days,both the teachers and students don't like school,the level of work is low,and the discipline is a distant thing,something hard to achieve.
Education was great back in socialism.

[TC]

Noting that discrimination against redheads is rooted squarely in historical anti-Irish and anti-Scots racism,

Sorry if I wont take your word for it in the spirit of "every white kid can declare himself a victim of racism" but:

1. discrimination against Irish people has historically been discrimination against Irish people, regardless of hair color - it does not extend to British red heads for example.

2. I don't buy that discrimination against readheads is rooted squarely in historical anti-Irish and anti-Scots racism. because...

3. What discrimination against red heads? What documented institutional discrimination actually exists? Are redheads socially marginalized, do they have lower incomes, higher prison rates - are they ghettoized into certain neighborhoods, restricted from intermarrying with other hair colors? No. This is nonsense. I'm not going to humor it. If anything people with red hair are admired the same way people with blonde hair are as being whiter (and more attractive) than most white people.

4. What historical anti-Scottish oppression are we talking about? There hasn't been anti-Scottish oppression for hundreds and hundreds of years and despite Scottish nationalists, the reality is that Scotland and Scottish people have never been oppressed in the way that Ireland and Irish people have (Who were, lets remember in part oppressed by Scottish people)

5. Red haired people are a relatively small minority in Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales - they are not uncommon in any of the four countries and the distribution of red haired people does not map onto national boarders.


and, I can assure you, both of those groups historically suffered very much the sort of experience you describe.

Actually they didn't. Irish people suffered considerable racism and exclusion but it was nothing on the scale or the extensiveness as what Black people have historically suffered. It seems like people here still fail to appreciate how bad slavery and racial aparthide are. Irish (not Scottish) people were excluded from working in certain private businesses - in the nineteenth century this is fairly extreme racism, but its not comparable to the total and legally enforced exclusion faced by Black people. At the same time period when there were "no Irish need apply" signs, there were millions of black people in chains, being bought and sold by white masters, some of whom certainly had red hair (and needless to say, "no women need apply" signs in the mid 19th century were unnecessary since that was just assumed!). This is not of the same sort. Not by a long shot.


Even if that aspect is absent from most contemporary anti-redhead discrimination

Again, what is this contemporary discrimination? Who has gotten deported to Ireland for failing to show immigration status because they have red hair? Who has been prevented from marrying a partner of another hair type the way black people were and gay people still are? Are our prisons filled with red heads? Can you get pulled over for driving an expensive car while red headed?


(and that particular form of racism a much weaker force today that anti-black racism), this suggests to me that it can be thought of as acting as a sort of "rootless racism", a racist meme which is detached from its social-political purpose, so the experience may not be quite as distant as may be assumed by a non-redhead.


Anti-semitisim - a form of racism that used to be powerful but has lost its socio-economic-political purpose and now has absolutely no sway in mainstream bourgeois politics but still resonates as a meme for some marginalized bigots - thats an unrooted racism if you like.

But red hair isn't even an ethic group. Its never been believed to be an ethic group. Most families with red heads are predominantly not red headed. It is a single recessive gene trait - parents of red heads are often not red heads themselves and children of red heads are often not red heads.

And you have just failed so far to demonstrate any real basis in systematic racism against red heads, not Irish people, but red heads.




Which is not, of course, to say that the comparison was not hyperbolic, or that it wasn't in poor taste, simply that I don't think it was necessarily groundless.

White privilege is the privilege in part to throw around your complaints whether grounded or not and expect them to be taken seriously.

[TC]

Ah, but races do not exist, so racial characteristics do not either. ;) I mean if you are to claim that certain environmental looks, such as black skin, are racial then people might as well claim that red hair is. Racial oppression is truly ''the oppression of what some people think are races, but are not''.

Of course races exist. They exist as social constructs mediated by power relations, just like classes. Races don't exist as discreet genotypes in biology but that doesn't mean they don't exist, or that racial characteristics don't exist: racial characteristics exist to the extent that people in a particular society recognizes them as characteristic of particular races.

[PhoenixAsh]

Thats a ridiculous and weirdly sexist statement - there is a tremendous overlap in physical strength between groups of males and groups of females at all ages but even more dramatically so for school age children and young teenagers. Comments like this perpetuate a a social meme of general female weakness and general male strength when clearly variation from individual to individual can be far more dramatic than variation between group averages.


To be advocate of the devil...is this not a general rule? Individual differences being very dramatic against group averages? should be something we should keep in mind when discussing generalised statements everywhere.

=====

More to the statement involving bodily strength. The general rule is that the avarage boy has a greater potential for greater strength then the avarage woman and a higher maximum strength potential. Key word is potential. This is influenced by diet, actual genetic make-up, training, actual body composition and the involved movement.

[Queercommie Girl]

Thats a ridiculous and weirdly sexist statement - there is a tremendous overlap in physical strength between groups of males and groups of females at all ages but even more dramatically so for school age children and young teenagers. Comments like this perpetuate a a social meme of general female weakness and general male strength when clearly variation from individual to individual can be far more dramatic than variation between group averages.

Another thing: frankly the argument of whether or not women are physically weaker than men isn't even very relevant to the discussion here.

So what if some groups of people happen to be physically weaker? There shouldn't be any compulsion for everyone to become some kind of "superfit superman". People shouldn't be discriminated on the basis of physical strength, period, just like they shouldn't be discriminated on the basis of intelligence, skin colour or facial structure. If "communism" is a kind of Social Darwinist style "law of the jungle" where only the strong can survive, then to be frank I'm not a "communist".

[S.Artesian]

Of course races exist. They exist as social constructs mediated by power relations, just like classes. Races don't exist as discreet genotypes in biology but that doesn't mean they don't exist, or that racial characteristics don't exist: racial characteristics exist to the extent that people in a particular society recognizes them as characteristic of particular races.


Sure races exist, like fictitious capital exists, like ideology exists, like "freedom" exists-- and does not exist. These things only exist as social constructs.

There is no biological, scientific basis for notions of race. Race is an ideological construction serving definite social relations of production.

[Aeval]

Likelihood is, if you're being bullied because you're a ginger, it probably has nothing to do with the fact you're a ginger, and more with the fact that you're vulnerable to bullying, maybe you lack confidence, and you aren't standing up for yourself. They are using the fact that you're a ginger as a tool to bully you, odds are if you weren't a ginger, you'd still be bullied.


I have to disagree on this one. I don't know what it is about people with ginger hair but certainly from my experience at school they were seen as fair game, like they're not a "proper" minority so you weren't a bad person if you started on them.

Anyhoos, here (http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/north-east-news/evening-chronicle-news/tm_headline=life-made-hell-by-bullying-over-ginger-hair&method=full&objectid=19231150&siteid=50081-name_page.html) is an extreme case of people being bullied for having ginger hair, they moved three times and people still did it, so it's not like it was one person or group picking on one specific person who just happened to be ginger.

[Tim Finnegan]

*snip*
You seem to make the same points a few times, so I'll try and address what I saw as the main ones:

1 - Anti-readhead sentiments: I'm not claiming any institutionalised discrimination against redheads, so, yes, "discrimination" was probably the wrong word. However, it cannot be denied that a lot of people do carry certain prejudices about people with red hair, and this is especially true in the United Kingdom, were, for whatever reason, it's pretty much socially acceptable to be a complete and utter bell end about people with red hair.

And, yeah, sometimes (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-464301/18-000-waitress-taunted-red-hair.html) it gets (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tyne/6714735.stm) kinda (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/5312394/Schoolboy-bullied-over-ginger-hair-hanged-himself.html) nasty (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/3233392.stm), whatever that's worth.

2 - Anti-redhead sentiment as anti-Irish sentiment: I'm not suggesting that the two are identical, but that the former has its roots in the latter. Nor do I think that one must be explicitly pinned to the other for it to be rooted there: in the US, for example, traditional beauty standards not only exclude racial minorities, but also demand a far more "Aryan" appearance from whites when compared to Europe, because the physical features associated with racial minorities have gone beyond a convenient stereotype to make fun of to something which is considered a negative trait in and of itself.

3 - "Rootless racism": I'm not meaning to suggest that anti-redhead sentiment constitutes a form of racism in itself, and if I did it was a miscommunication on my part. What I'm saying is that it's a meme rooted in anti-Irish prejudices, which has lost its social role with the end of institutionalised anti-Irish racism, but has been retained in the culture. This suggests to me that the experience of a redhead may occasionally feel like that of an ethnic minority, although, of course, to a far, far lesser magnitude, far more fleetingly, and without any of the institutionalised approval that white supremacism receives. As I said, the comparison was still hyperbolic, crass and tasteless, I simply don't think that it was entirely spurious.

4 - Anti-Scottish racism: Firstly, yes, I'm talking historically, here. Secondly, I think you under-estimate the experiences in question. Granted, it would be exaggeration to declare those experiences on a level of those of the Irish, let alone African-Americans- and, again, I was in error if I suggested as much- but unless you're willing to overlook the explicit campaign of ethnocide pursued by the British government in the Highlands in the 18th century, you can't say that there's been no substantial oppression at work. (And, for the record, I'm Irish-Scots, so I'm well aware that the Scots have been highly complicit in the oppression of the Irish.)

[Die Rote Fahne]

Is that just a tactic to be used under capitalism, or is it what you think the education system should teach kids as well in a communist society?

And what about girls who are bullied, but due to their natural disadvantages in physical strength, cannot respond so effectively in such a way?

I would call it a tactic to use if going to a teacher is out of the question.

It's not going to be for everyone, but throwing a punch will be displaying confidence and a will to stand up for yourself, and it WILL help.

I mean, I haven't done a Marxist analysis of high school bullying, nor do I intend to. However, one thing that doesn't help, is going online and *****ing about it to random internet people. Either go to a parent, teacher, or stand the fuck up for yourself and deck someone.

[Queercommie Girl]

I mean, I haven't done a Marxist analysis of high school bullying, nor do I intend to.


Maybe you should. Marxist methods can be used to analyse every single aspect of human society. If you think bullying is something that will "eternally exist" in an essentialist way, then you are clearly mistaken.



However, one thing that doesn't help, is going online and *****ing about it to random internet people. Either go to a parent, teacher, or stand the fuck up for yourself and deck someone.
Bullying is unavoidable in a capitalist system, particularly in an educational shit-hole like the US. (US schools are some of the biggest shit-holes in the world) But a communist education system should seek to eliminate bullying in a systematic way, rather than just utilise patch-up short-term solutions like what you are suggesting here.

[Queercommie Girl]

This model doesn't work for everyone. What about the shy kid who doesn't like sports and holes up in the library reading poetry? What about the "geeky" kid who could probably hack any computer in existence but is picked on for poor social skills?


Exactly. Basically if a system only rewards jocks, then the other positive aspects of humanity cannot be developed properly, which would negatively impact on productivity in the long-run.



US society rewards people (in terms of popularity in high school but later in terms of "earning potential" as adults) with certain personality types.In high school this usually means the jocks,


US capitalist society is one of the biggest shit-holes in the world, including US schools. It's one factor in the gradual decline of the country.



It would be interesting to do a cross-cultural study of bullying. While it may happen with kids everywhere, extreme bullying seems unique to US society.

Bullying happens everywhere, but I agree that in the US it's especially bad.

The "Stalinist" states had considerably less bullying in schools, despite all the problems of the "Stalinist" system. Certainly in Maoist China no-one would ever get picked on for being academically superior. However, people might get bullied simply for being stupid.

[El Chuncho]

Of course races exist. They exist as social constructs mediated by power relations, just like classes. Races don't exist as discreet genotypes in biology but that doesn't mean they don't exist, or that racial characteristics don't exist: racial characteristics exist to the extent that people in a particular society recognizes them as characteristic of particular races.

Illusions and lies caused by the bourgeoisie do not constitute real existence, though, I meant. What my point was is this; claiming that black skin, almond eyes etc. are characteristic of a separate race of humans is ridiculous, therefore it would only be about as ridiculous to claim that hair colour, eye colour or very slightly different skin tones (e.g. the difference between southern Italians and northern Italians) constitute racial characteristics (and in fact, people try to claim that red hair is the result of racial mixing between Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens; which is nonsense for so many reasons). I am in the school of thought that outright rejects the illusion of race, which is why I do not use the term ''interracial relationship'', and find it a little offensive when used to describe my relationship with my partner. Racism exists, but races do not, just as the view that the Earth is flat, a construct, has not existed since long before even the Roman era. Claiming that races exist is like claiming the Earth is flat.

We have been told that races exist, it doesn't mean we have to accept them as even ''constructs''. We should bin it like all pseudo-scientific thought. ;)

[cleef]

im not going to get into the prejudice vs racism debate but what i would say is you can change you hair colour but not your skin colour.

However, NO ONE should have to change their hair colour or endure the sort of bullying described by the rebel based upon stupid ignorant prejudice - i would not condone that in any way.

Not trying to be pedantic but you can change your skin colour, there are many skin lightening products available on the market (im not suggesting that people use these) advising that someone should change their appearence to prevent ridicule is a bit of a pisstake.

I think the OP may have made a bit of an overstatement comparing it to "blacks during segregation", but i'd say red heads (mostly male) do get some stick for their hair colour.
I'd say just toughen up mate, anyone says that sort of shit to you and you take offence to it and have made it clear that you find it offensive then give them a slap

[Tim Finnegan]

Illusions and lies caused by the bourgeoisie do not constitute real existence, though, I meant.
Sociologically, they do. By way of analogy, there is no "middle class" in a materialist sense, but the "middle class" still exists as a sociological entity insofar as it determines how people act and interact.

[GallowsBird]

Actually there is racism against "whites", but mostly from other whites, e.g. East Europeans face racism in Britain for instance.

Yes and in America Slavs, Italians, Greeks and Irish used to be treated appalingly (the biggest mass lynching was actually of Italians) and racially discriminated against and they are traditionally counted as "white" (which is a ridiculous concept).


The whole category of "white" is pretty useless, since there is no such thing as the "white race" anyway, it's just a social construction.

Indeed.


People face racism due to a variety of factors, often due to their class, economic status and national origin. To reduce everything down to just "skin colour" is pretty ridiculous.

Yes that annoys me greatly.


Racism is much more than just "skin deep".

No it is in the mind of the racist about the very DNA, the blood of someone.

[Sovietcomrade232]

Dude, your being picked on because western culture these days is heavily idealistic. If you don't at least appear the "normal" stereotype then you get outcast. It's less about your red hair, and more about you not fitting everyone else's ideal.

Then there's this notion that bullies are just feeling insecure and seek to fill the void. This is not the case most of the time. It stems more from a culture of black and white ideas of right and wrong. Children and teenagers apply it their and everyone else's standards and a social caste is born.

[Lanky Wanker]

I don't think he meant it literally when he said it's like segregation (which obviously it isn't). I personally never understood the whole hate for gingers thing, it's a hair colour for fuck sake, why is it such a big deal? like he said, sure, if it's a friend maybe saying "hey ginger pubes come here" every now and then but I really don't see the obsession with gingers. I get this feeling that once racism, sexism and all other kinds of discrimination are non-existent on this earth, gingerphobia will still be around lol.

[Sword and Shield]

I get this feeling that once racism, sexism and all other kinds of discrimination are non-existent on this earth, gingerphobia will still be around lol.

But gingerphilia might exist too.

[Tim Finnegan]

But gingerphilia might exist too.
Ah, but if they're attractive, they're called a "redhead", just like heavier women aren't "fat", they're "curvaceous". "Ginger" has specifically pejorative connotations.

...Which actually makes the term sort of questionable, like calling anti-black racism "niggerphobia" or something. http://i422.photobucket.com/albums/pp305/Meeposmini/Smileys/confused-thinking-smiley.gif

Anyway, here's a song:

KVN_0qvuhhw

(And I can say "ginger", because I have an inexplicably ginger beard. ;))