C.I.A. in Libya Aiding Rebels, U.S. Officials Say

[The Vegan Marxist]

C.I.A. in Libya Aiding Rebels, U.S. Officials Say
By MARK MAZZETTI and ERIC SCHMITT
March 30, 2011

WASHINGTON — The Central Intelligence Agency has inserted clandestine operatives into Libya to gather intelligence for military airstrikes and make contacts with rebels battling Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi’s forces, according to American officials.

While President Obama has insisted that no American ground troops join in the Libyan campaign, small groups of C.I.A. operatives have been working in Libya for several weeks and are part of a shadow force of Westerners that the Obama administration hopes can help set back Colonel Qaddafi’s military, the officials said.

The C.I.A. presence comprises an unknown number of American officers who had worked at the spy agency’s station in Tripoli and those who arrived more recently. In addition, current and former British officials said, dozens of British special forces and MI6 intelligence officers are working inside Libya. The British operatives have been directing airstrikes from British Tornado jets and gathering intelligence about the whereabouts of Libyan government tank columns, artillery pieces, and missile installations, the officials said.

By meeting with rebel groups, the Americans hope to fill in gaps in understanding who the leaders are of the groups opposed Colonel Qaddafi, and what their allegiances are, according to United States government officials speaking only on condition of anonymity because the actions of C.I.A. operatives are classified. The C.I.A. has declined to comment.

The United States and its allies in the NATO-led military intervention have scrambled over the last several weeks to gather detailed information on the location and abilities of Libyan infantry and armored forces, intelligence that normally takes months of painstaking analysis.

“We didn’t have great data,” Gen. Carter F. Ham, who handed over control of the Libya mission to NATO on Wednesday, said in an e-mail earlier this week. “Libya hasn’t been a country we focused on a lot over past few years,” he said.

American officials cautioned that the Western operatives are not working in close coordination with the rebel force, and there was little evidence on Wednesday that allied airstrikes were being used to cover the rebel retreat.

Because the publicly stated goal of the Libyan campaign is not to overthrow Colonel Qaddafi’s government, the clandestine effort now going on is significantly different from the Afghan campaign to drive the Taliban from power in 2001. Back then, American C.I.A. and Special Forces troops armed a collection of Afghan militias and called in airstrikes that paved the rebel advances on strategically important cities like Kabul and Kandahar.

Still, the American officials hope that information gathered by intelligence officers in Libya — from the location of Colonel Qaddafi’s munitions depots to the clusters of government troops inside Libyan towns — might help weaken Libya’s military enough to encourage defections within its ranks.

The American military is also monitoring Libyan troops with U-2 spy planes and a high-altitude Global Hawk drone, as well as a special aircraft, JSTARS, that tracks the movements of large groups of troops. Military officials said that the Air Force also has Predator drones, similar to those now operating in Afghanistan, in reserve.

Over the weekend, the United States also began flying AC-130 gunships, which attacked Libyan tanks and armored vehicles on the coastal road near Brega and Surt with 40-millimeter and 105-millimeter cannons, an American military officer said Wednesday.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/31/world/africa/31intel.html?_r=1&ref=africa

[IndependentCitizen]

Oh ffs, why did I even try to say a no-fly zone could potentially be a good thing....Why does something good, always get hijacked....

[The Vegan Marxist]

It says they've been there for weeks. Meaning, more than likely, before no-fly zones and air-strikes were even implemented.

[khad]

Oh ffs, why did I even try to say a no-fly zone could potentially be a good thing....Why does something good, always get hijacked....
^No backtracking from the CWI.

[IndependentCitizen]

^No backtracking from the CWI.

My personal opinions and thoughts shouldn't be dictated by an international organisation..

[The Vegan Marxist]

My personal opinions and thoughts shouldn't be dictated by an international organisation..

It shouldn't, but unfortunately it does happen. What does your org. think of this then?

[IndependentCitizen]

It shouldn't, but unfortunately it does happen. What does your org. think of this then?

This is their recent statement: http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/4974

Doesn't say anything about the CIA yet, though.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Of course, defend the minority of Libya and "oppose imperialism". :rolleyes: Sorry, but your organization has lost track of everything through their analysis.

[Raubleaux]

Haven't we been saying this?

The most amazing thing is that despite all the bombings, despite the covert CIA aid, despite the international media blitzkrieg, Gaddafi is still winning!

This cannot all be chalked up to the rebels not having weapons, experience fighting, etc. The truth is they don't have that much support outside of Benghazi.

Overall though this is still just a terrible situation for Libya. Despite the fact that they clearly have a lot of support and are on the offensive, I'm still not optimistic about the government's chances against the Western powers.

Kim was right when he said Gaddafi shouldn't have given up his WMDs. This might not be happening right now if he hadn't.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

MSNBC is even reporting "Obama signed secret order within 2-3 weeks ago" and "Obama supports covert order to arm rebels"

[Princess Luna]

Haven't we been saying this?

The most amazing thing is that despite all the bombings, despite the covert CIA aid, despite the international media blitzkrieg, Gaddafi is still winning!

This cannot all be chalked up to the rebels not having weapons, experience fighting, etc. The truth is they don't have that much support outside of Benghazi.

Overall though this is still just a terrible situation for Libya. Despite the fact that they clearly have a lot of support and are on the offensive, I'm still not optimistic about the government's chances against the Western powers.

Kim was right when he said Gaddafi shouldn't have given up his WMDs. This might not be happening right now if he hadn't.
please share with us how you came to this discovery, because from everything i have seen the reason the rebels are losing is because Gaddafi's forces are well trained and supplied and have tanks and heavy artillery, while the rebels are poorly supplied, poorly organized, poorly trained and the only heavy weapons they have are what they have taken from Gaddafi's forces not because the rebels don't have any support outside of Benghazi. I doubt you or any of the other pro-Gaddafi people on this site have any proof that the majority of Libyans still support Gaddafi (sources from the Libyan government itself do not count).

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Imperialism is clearly preparing a comprador regime to rule post -Qaddafi Libya. The situation in Libya is still very much in a state of flux and the fact is that the planned comprador regime does not yet exist .

The best scenario of course would be for working class elements to take leadership of the rebellion. For obvious reasons this is not in the cards.

Libya is a complex situation. I would assert that , regardless of the class forces involved,the rebellion is legitamate.Class consciousness in Libya is subsumed by tribal and regional affiliations which act as vast patronage netorks. Most people hate Qaddaffi but its not surprising that he does have a basis of support. This does not make him a "good dictator".

Qaddaffi is a repressive kleptocratic dictator who, like all dictators, is holding back the progressive development of his country. The regime appears to have been a semi-bonapartist military/bureaucratic dictatorship. Qaddaffi became the personal embodiement of his own historical contradictions.Libya cannot progressively develop under his rule.

Obviously a comprador regime is not better and possibly may be much worse than the current regime. The only possible way forward out of a murky, complex, and difficult situation is support of independent working class elements.The formation of independent unions, including those of foreign migrant workers should be advocated.
Alternatives to both Qaddaffi and Western hegemony should be brought forth.The Qaddaffi regime obviously would not be the place to look for this.

It is a very difficult situation but an "either Qaddaffi or imperialism" schema is limited.

Libya has a rich tradition of anti-imperialist struggle.The Libyan people are not stupid. Do you think that rank and file rebels are not also suspicious that a CIA operative has been installed in their leadership,, that large elements of the Qaddaffi regime have taken leadership positions in the rebel government, that Western powers are carving up their country in London?Their hatred of the tyrant Qaddaffi is justified. Will the fighters throw their struggle away for Western interests?

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Qaddaffi currently appears to be "winnng" although what that exactly this means in this case could be up for debate. The rebels have enthusism but do not have a coherent army.

Elements of the intervention may have been partially pre-planned, but it appears to have been intially provoked by the threatened" loss of face" which would have confronted Western powers if there was no intervention.Power is like athletic abilitry, "use it or loss it" Divvying up the spoils comes after.

The intervention once started has a logic all its own. Further involvement will be required. Things could turn out vastly different trhan Obama, Sarkozy, or Cameron had planned.

What are the posibilities of NATO ground force involvement in Libya in the near future?

[Dimmu]

Well.. History has shown us that giving arms to rebels has never come back to bite US in the ass.. It worked so well with the Afghanistan "rebels"... Oh wait..

[The Vegan Marxist]

please share with us how you came to this discovery, because from everything i have seen the reason the rebels are losing is because Gaddafi's forces are well trained and supplied and have tanks and heavy artillery, while the rebels are poorly supplied, poorly organized, poorly trained and the only heavy weapons they have are what they have taken from Gaddafi's forces not because the rebels don't have any support outside of Benghazi. I doubt you or any of the other pro-Gaddafi people on this site have any proof that the majority of Libyans still support Gaddafi (sources from the Libyan government itself do not count).

Well, according to a report by Stratfor, a pro-imperialist, anti-Gaddafi “global intelligence” company:


“According to the narrative, Gadhafi should quickly have been overwhelmed — but he wasn’t. He actually had substantial support among some tribes and within the army. All of these supporters had a great deal to lose if he was overthrown. Therefore, they proved far stronger collectively than the opposition, even if they were taken aback by the initial opposition successes. To everyone’s surprise, Gadhafi not only didn’t flee, he counterattacked and repulsed his enemies.

[...]

“One of the parts of the narrative is that the tyrant is surviving only by force and that the democratic rising readily routs him. The fact is that the tyrant had a lot of support in this case, the opposition wasn’t particularly democratic, much less organized or cohesive, and it was Gadhafi who routed them.”

Not too long ago, we had been given word that the largest known tribe in Libya – the Warfalla tribe – were siding with Gaddafi, demanding for reconciliation instead of a civil war:


“Some are youths who want things but have been exploited. Do they want to divide the country? No, we will not agree to that. Do they want a constitution? The majority must agree. No one wants to replace Muammar Gaddafi. But the problem is a conspiracy against Libya.”

Then, surprising enough, Al-Jazeera unexpectedly revealed just how much support Col. Gaddafi was attaining from the Libyan people:

vNoNv0kIweE

Let's also not forget this anti-Gaddafi article stating the exact same thing as well:

http://www.twincities.com/ci_17695927?nclick_check=1

So, clearly, the majority of Libyans still support Gaddafi. No if's, and's, or but's. Like it or not, this is reality.

[CynicalIdealist]

Gaddafi has a lot of support, but you shouldn't assume that he has majority support simply on the basis of his ability to hold onto power amid this civil war.

The uprising is a fairly popular one, but it is primarily based in Benghazi and has been hijacked by neoliberals formerly of the Gaddafi regime, in addition to the West of course. In any case, I don't think that should lead us in the direction of actually supporting Gaddafi. Both sides of the civil war are led by reactionary elements and should be absolutely opposed, just as we should also oppose a no-fly zone and Western intervention.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Its not surprising that Qaddaffi has an element of support among some sectors of the population, most notably people living in Tripoli and those tied in with his tribal patronage network. The standard of living for these people has risen-Qaddaffi was able to divert a percentage of the billions in oil revenue to buy support. Its also clear that a large number of people in the eastern part of Libya hate Qaddaffi. Again this is understandable given the dynamics of the tribal patronage system.

Qaddaffi isn't a Marxist, he can't be given the basis of his regime. He long ago gave up ant credibility as even a Third Worldisy leader. It is not possible to move society ahead of the basis of a tribal/client/patronage system for very long.


Weird Washington Post article
"He made me feel like a free man. If I don't hurt anyone, I'm free in my own environment," said Majdi Daba, a 42-year-old dentist who was born in the year Gadhafi wrested power from Libya's monarchy and who says he goes to the square every day. "Gadhafi gives us advice, that's all, and when he dies, 7 million people will rule themselves."
Its possible to find thousands of people in the eastern part of the country who would say the exact opposite. Have you heard about the engineer who spent years in and out of Qaddaffi's prison and been tortured for his activism? As I understand he drove an SUV filled with explosives though the armory in Benghazi, blowing himself up in the process but enabling the rebels to take the city.

He sounds more heroic than the zombie like hero worship quoted in the article.

[t.shonku]

I always suspected CIA involvement up to some extent,

Thanks to Vegan Marxist we now have prove !

[Rusty Shackleford]

remember the 8 man "diplomatic team" arrested by the rebels a few weeks ago? remember what it consisted of? 6-7 SAS men and a diplomat.

[t.shonku]

Guys does any one here has any info on French intelligence's involvement ?

[timofey]

Imperialism is clearly preparing a comprador regime to rule post -Qaddafi Libya. The situation in Libya is still very much in a state of flux and the fact is that the planned comprador regime does not yet exist .

The best scenario of course would be for working class elements to take leadership of the rebellion. For obvious reasons this is not in the cards.

Libya is a complex situation. I would assert that , regardless of the class forces involved,the rebellion is legitamate.Class consciousness in Libya is subsumed by tribal and regional affiliations which act as vast patronage netorks. Most people hate Qaddaffi but its not surprising that he does have a basis of support. This does not make him a "good dictator".

Qaddaffi is a repressive kleptocratic dictator who, like all dictators, is holding back the progressive development of his country. The regime appears to have been a semi-bonapartist military/bureaucratic dictatorship. Qaddaffi became the personal embodiement of his own historical contradictions.Libya cannot progressively develop under his rule.

Obviously a comprador regime is not better and possibly may be much worse than the current regime. The only possible way forward out of a murky, complex, and difficult situation is support of independent working class elements.The formation of independent unions, including those of foreign migrant workers should be advocated.
Alternatives to both Qaddaffi and Western hegemony should be brought forth.The Qaddaffi regime obviously would not be the place to look for this.

It is a very difficult situation but an "either Qaddaffi or imperialism" schema is limited.

Libya has a rich tradition of anti-imperialist struggle.The Libyan people are not stupid. Do you think that rank and file rebels are not also suspicious that a CIA operative has been installed in their leadership,, that large elements of the Qaddaffi regime have taken leadership positions in the rebel government, that Western powers are carving up their country in London?Their hatred of the tyrant Qaddaffi is justified. Will the fighters throw their struggle away for Western interests?

This beyond terrible. You literally are advocating support of rebels that are murdering black Libyans, who are being lead by Western-educated elites, that are being aided by US imperialism.

What would Marx think about this concept of supporting any and all revolutions against a government, just because they may turn into something progressive?


an oligarchy of 300,000 slaveholders dared to inscribe, for the first time in the annals of the world, 'slavery' on the banner of Armed Revolt... the slaveholders' rebellion was to sound the tocsin for a general holy crusade of property against labor, and that for the men of labor, with their hopes for the future, even their past conquests were at stake in that tremendous conflict...."

You sir, are a reactionary pretending to be a radical. You are probably one of those Pentagon sock puppets the Guardian reported on.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

This beyond terrible. You literally are advocating support of rebels that are murdering black Libyans, who are being lead by Western-educated elites, that are being aided by US imperialism.

What would Marx think about this concept of supporting any and all revolutions against a government, just because they may turn into something progressive?


You sir, are a reactionary pretending to be a radical. You are probably one of those Pentagon sock puppets the Guardian reported on.

Ummm...first of all I'm female. Secondly you are conflating many things here.I haven't seen documentation of massacres committed by the rebels but I would not be surprised. I have seen documentation of Qaddaffi's regime carrying out massacres. We could go on tit for tat of who killed more people. The point is to take a dialectical approach. I am not advocating support of rebels that are" murdering black Libyans, who are being lead by Western-educated elites, that are being aided by US imperialism", Nothing could be further from the truth.I am advocating support of rebels though means of class solidarity.There is such a thing you know and it transcends Third Worldism.

Great Marx quote but supporting working class layers of the Libya rebels is pretty remote from supporting the Confederacy in the US Civil War.

[Bright Banana Beard]

What make you think that rebels won't carry out massacre?