Needs? What are they?

[ComradeMan]

"To each according to needs and from each according to abilities"-

We are all probably familiar with this phrase- but I was thinking about the word "needs". What is a need? Are all needs the same? What is the difference between a need such as food and water and the person who claims they need a yacht! :lol:

Are any of you guys familiar with Abraham Maslow?

I found his hierarchy of needs quite interesting...

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Maslowhttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/60/Maslow%27s_Hierarchy_of_Needs.svg/800px-Maslow%27s_Hierarchy_of_Needs.svg.png

[Tomhet]

Food, water, clothing, shelter, Weed...

[Omsk]

Needs are the absolute minimum resources necessary for long-term physical well-being,basic needs are: Food,water,clothes,shelter.
You don't need an yacht to survive,especially if the people next to you are starving to death.
Brave comrades usually don't have much needs,a fact proven in the Great Patriotic War,and the many battles:
There are many needs and they are so different,kids for instance,need education and the love of their parents,while adolescents and other require more things.
Comrades in the army,for instance,usually don't need much,clothing,warm food and ammunition and they are happy.
I knew WW2 veterans from my grandfathers brigade who survived on minimal rations during the war,most of them starved,but they cared not for commodities,they had resolution,spirit,and the will to free their motherland,while the Germans had food,ammunition,tobacco,coffee,and warm clothes - it ment nothing.

You must make a parallel in the case of needs -
A worker must have a decent life,and thus,he must have shelter (flat/house) plenty of food,clothing of course,electricity,warmth,etc etc.

Having a yacht,a pool,a good car are not needs,they are capitalist commodities.

[Tomhet]

How did the Germans have warm clothes? if anything it was the opposite..
The brave soldiers OF COURSE would have wanted better stuff, who wouldn't???
Yachts, Pools and nice cars are not 'capitalist commodities'.. They are commodities, neither capitalist or socialist, it depends WHO owns/controls them..
I sure as hell like yachts, pools, and cars..

[ComradeMan]

Needs are the absolute minimum resources necessary for long-term physical well-being,basic needs are: Food,water,clothes,shelter.
You don't need an yacht to survive,especially if the people next to you are starving to death......

I hear what you are saying and I don't disagree but what of the needs of esteem according to Maslow? Does not the person who "needs" the yacht fall into this bracket, at least theoreticaly?

It's an interesting one this....

[Omsk]

How did the Germans have warm clothes? if anything it was the opposite..
The partisans used leather or bandages to warm themselves,they had no real clothes,a lot of them died by freezing to death.The Germans on the other hand had warm winter uniforms and good boots.

The brave soldiers OF COURSE would have wanted better stuff, who wouldn't???
They wanted better stuff,but they knew the only way to get it is to fight the Germans and get it from them,and they fought them.

Yachts, Pools and nice cars are not 'capitalist commodities'.. They are commodities, neither capitalist or socialist, it depends WHO owns/controls them..
Capitalists and overly-rich bastards own them.


I hear what you are saying and I don't disagree but what of the needs of esteem according to Maslow? Does not the person who "needs" the yacht fall into this bracket, at least theoreticaly?
Just theoretically.You don't really need an yacht..

[Tomhet]

I was under the impression the Germans were ill equipped for the winter?
And yes, capitalists own them, and THAT is the problem eh.. The working class should own them and enjoy them..

[Manic Impressive]

wow he rates security of property more important than friendship, family & sexual intimacy :confused:

Must suck to be him

[#FF0000]

Maslo's Hierarchy isn't 100% hard and fast, mind.

[Omsk]

I was under the impression the Germans were ill equipped for the winter?
They were,but in comparison to the partisans they had fantastic equipment.(winter clothes)

But lets not get too Off-topic.

[ComradeMan]

wow he rates security of property more important than friendship, family & sexual intimacy :confused:

Must suck to be him

I'm not sure the pyramid is his own personal opinion or perhaps based on how things were as he perceived them.

[Manic Impressive]

I'm not sure the pyramid is his own personal opinion or perhaps based on how things were as he perceived them.
what's the difference between how an individual perceives something and their opinion of something? Seems the same to me.

[ComradeMan]

what's the difference between how an individual perceives something and their opinion of something? Seems the same to me.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. I meant the way he perceived society "as it is"- not necessarily his own personal opinion about how it should be.

[Viet Minh]

Needs for survival:
oxygen, food, water, sleep

Needs for comfort:
personal space, human contact, basic senses, personal safety

Rights:
Right to religion, right to political opinion, right to protest, right to a fair trial, racial and sexual equality

[The Man]

A computer, a car (You can't do much without a computer nowadays.)

[Manic Impressive]

Perhaps I wasn't clear. I meant the way he perceived society "as it is"- not necessarily his own personal opinion about how it should be.
But perception forms opinion while opinion influences perception. Your opinion was that my perception of your explanation was flawed however, my opinion of your perception was understood but my perception of your opinion is that they are the same.

I'm soooo bored can I be unrestricted yet?

[hatzel]

Ah...are we addressing needs as we perceive them, or needs in the phrase? Because I remember somebody mentioning that on the thread about anarchists who don't call themselves communists. Something to do with Kropotkin's idea of needs were only, as Erich identified, 'the absolute minimum resources necessary for long-term physical well-being'. And there was something suggesting he was ambiguous about the rest, and whether these other provisions might be governed by a different system, that is to say, aren't included in the whole abilities-needs catchphrase. Who was it who said that? Syndicat? If I can be bothered I'll find out and cross-quote :)

EDIT: Bam:


besides, Kropotkin is inconsistent. he says that free sharing is only to apply to things that would satisfy basic needs. he recognizes that there is a vast actual and potential range of human wants. this is why he fudges by talking about worker groups producing things for each other "by free agreement." Except that "free agreement" isn't well-defined. this could be a market economy for example. if workers earn things from others by producing things to exchane with them "by free agreement" then in fact people will be remunerated for their work effort. so Kropotkin is inconsistent.

[ComradeMan]

So what are needs? :confused:

[hatzel]

So what are needs? :confused:

I'm going to go out on a limb here...not yachts, they're not a need...beyond that...I dunno...

[#FF0000]

So what are needs? :confused:

I think what most people think of as "needs" fall in the bottom two levels of Maslow's hierarchy.

[Viet Minh]

Revolution! :cool:

[hatzel]

I think what most people think of as "needs" fall in the bottom two levels of Maslow's hierarchy.

Handy in this case, because those that fall into the top levels aren't the kinds of things that storehouse shelves can be stocked with...:rolleyes:

[Revolution starts with U]

I have a quote from Henry Hazlitt, a capitalist theoritician, that both answers this question (imo) and destorys capitalism in one fell swoop:
"But need is not effective economic demand. Economic demand requires both need and corresponding purchasing power."

Basically, it doesn't matter what the difference between a need and a want is, it's a gradual scale (you can see the difference at the extremes, but close to the middle it's a little fuzzier). This is exactly why purchasing power should be based democratically, rather than monetarily.

[Nehru]

So what are needs? :confused:

Needs are physical, period. Psychological needs are not needs but desires.

[ComradeMan]

Needs are physical, period. Psychological needs are not needs but desires.

But do we live by bread alone? On that basis a prisoner has all of his or her needs fulfilled....

[hatzel]

But do we live by bread alone?

I vaguely remember somebody saying something about this once, but I don't quite remember what their conclusions were...:rolleyes:

[RGacky3]

But do we live by bread alone? On that basis a prisoner has all of his or her needs fulfilled....

Yes he does, except he's having his rights taken away.

[hatzel]

Yes he does, except he's having his rights taken away.

Does that mean that in a communist society, the 'from each according to his needs' will only (necessarily) extend as far as that provided to prisoners today?

[Thirsty Crow]

So what are needs? :confused:
Needs refer to things used for the reproduction of the human organism: food, water, oxygen, sleep. Therefore, a post-capitalist society should, in my opinion, provide free food, free access to clean, drinkable water, shelter (free housing) and free breathing air (:D). In my opinion, this should be coupled with free access to heating, electricity, health care, child care, and education at every level. As far as other goods are concerned, labour time accounting (in other words, labour vouchers) should do the trick.

[RGacky3]

Does that mean that in a communist society, the 'from each according to his needs' will only (necessarily) extend as far as that provided to prisoners today?

No, in a communist society needs would be probably decided on democratically.

[hatzel]

No, in a communist society needs would be probably decided on democratically.

So if the people democratically decide yachts are a need...sounds fair, sign me up :lol:

[RGacky3]

Absolutely, why not?

[hatzel]

I think this is the kind of development that will get Bud on our side :lol:

[RGacky3]

The only thing that will get Bud on our side is if the American establishment officially declares that socialism is awesome.

But honestly, its a silly proposition to think that people would democratically decide that yacts are a need and thus should be available for absolutely everyone.

[hatzel]

But honestly, its a silly proposition to think that people would democratically decide that yacts are a need and thus should be available for absolutely everyone.

Coastal communities could presumably vote to acquire a communal yacht, though, which could be freely used by all members of the community. Like a timeshare or something. Seems logical.

[RGacky3]

Sure, but I doubt they would classify it as a "need," but anyway, its just semantics and whether you call it a need or whatever at that point it would'nt matter.

[Viet Minh]

Needs refer to things used for the reproduction of the human organism: food, water, oxygen, sleep. Therefore, a post-capitalist society should, in my opinion, provide free food, free access to clean, drinkable water, shelter (free housing) and free breathing air (:D). In my opinion, this should be coupled with free access to heating, electricity, health care, child care, and education at every level. As far as other goods are concerned, labour time accounting (in other words, labour vouchers) should do the trick.

Like money? :lol: No I'm joking I know what you're saying.. Just to play devil's advocate though, its a thought I've had for a while, but I don't know the name for it, what if there was a minimum and maximum wage imposed by law? Of course it would be slightly higher for physical labour, and then again for 'dirty' jobs, ie for jobs with physical or health risks. There is also a slight increase in wage for every employee you are responisble for, to keep the motivation to actually start new business and make it successul. The rest is paid in tax and provides the basic needs for the entire population (food, water, housing, heating, medical care) so wages are only necessary for luxury goods and not for survival.

[Thirsty Crow]

Like money? :lol:No, labour time renumeration does not amount to money since labour vouchers would not circulate and would be designed so as to document an individual's labour time spent.

[Rafiq]

"To each according to needs and from each according to abilities"-

We are all probably familiar with this phrase- but I was thinking about the word "needs". What is a need? Are all needs the same? What is the difference between a need such as food and water and the person who claims they need a yacht! :lol:

Are any of you guys familiar with Abraham Maslow?

I found his hierarchy of needs quite interesting...

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Maslowhttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/60/Maslow%27s_Hierarchy_of_Needs.svg/800px-Maslow%27s_Hierarchy_of_Needs.svg.png


Socialism guarantees all the basic needs a human being must have in order to survive, and things like, a yacht, well, if it's possible to produce those fairly to everyone that worked as hard for one, than yes.

Socialism does not guarantee yachts for everyone though.

[Rafiq]

So if the people democratically decide yachts are a need...sounds fair, sign me up :lol:

Well yeah, they can decide everyone gets yachts, but heres where the Materialism comes in:

The resources might not be available to get everyone yachts, therefore, they won't be able to.

If everyone democratically agreed to live forever, that doesn't mean it's possible.

[RGacky3]

Well yeah, they can decide everyone gets yachts, but heres where the Materialism comes in:

The resources might not be available to get everyone yachts, therefore, they won't be able to.

If everyone democratically agreed to live forever, that doesn't mean it's possible.

It was'nt a serious point.

[Agent Ducky]

The democratic decision to have a communal yacht. That's something I can support. I'm willing to share my boat with moar comrades ^_^
=P

[Viet Minh]

The democratic decision to have a communal yacht. That's something I can support. I'm willing to share my boat with moar comrades ^_^
=P

Its one big yacht, the peoples yacht! The communist loveboat :D

[Agent Ducky]

That would just be glorious. The commie boat.
OMG best idea ever:
Commie Cruise Ship. Yes. Take cruise ship from capitalists, make it comunally owned. AWESOMENESS ENSUES.

[Viet Minh]

Sail into international waters, hoist the jolly roger, and communist partay!! :lol:

[Agent Ducky]

Yes. Said boat could be its own independent communist thing.... not part of any nations, etc.

[Viet Minh]

Check out the film the boat that rocked (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1131729/) its supposed to be awesome :)
In a vaguely similar way check out Sealand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand) Its a capitalist monarchy but still imo an interesting history

[Agent Ducky]

I've heard of Sealand. I often joke about invading Sealand and converting it to the People's Republic of Socialist Romanistan (NO MORE KAPITALIST MONARCHY!)

And I wanna watch that movie =]

[RedSquare]

Have constantly come into contact with Maslow's hierarchy of needs throughout my studies and found it interesting but also limiting. What I envisage is a basic quality of life for all people. Besides the material basics of food, water, shelter, in a modern sense it must include transport and means to communicate. But certainly a solid framework of rights and a basic quality of life are something that need to be developed should the Left ever seek to seriously challenege the right, and explain how it would administer society.

[#FF0000]

Have constantly come into contact with Maslow's hierarchy of needs throughout my studies

Psych major spotted

[ComradeMan]

Have constantly come into contact with Maslow's hierarchy of needs throughout my studies and found it interesting but also limiting. What I envisage is a basic quality of life for all people. Besides the material basics of food, water, shelter, in a modern sense it must include transport and means to communicate. But certainly a solid framework of rights and a basic quality of life are something that need to be developed should the Left ever seek to seriously challenege the right, and explain how it would administer society.

I also found it interesting but had some questions as to how he based some of the higher groupings.

It is certainly interesting in terms of the state, businesses and advertising.

Next time you watch a car advertisement think about which need it is trying to realise.

[Viet Minh]

Have constantly come into contact with Maslow's hierarchy of needs throughout my studies and found it interesting but also limiting. What I envisage is a basic quality of life for all people. Besides the material basics of food, water, shelter, in a modern sense it must include transport and means to communicate. But certainly a solid framework of rights and a basic quality of life are something that need to be developed should the Left ever seek to seriously challenege the right, and explain how it would administer society.

Thats interesting, yes needs are relative to the technology and society in which the individual is a member. So the internet is a need in terms of equal opportunities looking for jobs, or even staying in touch with family and friends.

In terms of administering society, I think the left needs to move away from intellectualism and deal with the practical implementation of communist principles. 1. It is harder then to misrepresent leftist ideology as totalitarian and 2. Its helps people understand how leftism can benefit them in so many ways