Is the DPRK really a hellhole? [Archive]

Sinister Cultural Marxist

27th March 2011, 18:07

I don't know about you guys, but I like being able to walk around town after dark. Streetlight technology is nice.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2006/10/061011-d-6570c-001.jpg

Also, I tend to appreciate eating. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11244825)

Though, while I don't find monarchies to be particularly communistic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Jong-un) either, that has nothing to do with the living standards per se. But hey, if you like military parades and an eccentric cult of personality, I'm sure you'd find it wonderful. To each their own, I say!

Granted, it's not as bad as a lot of propaganda says ... but in the case of North Korea it doesn't seem like the propagandists have to try particularly hard to make the living standards and political system look poor.

Dimentio

27th March 2011, 18:07

I would define it as a militaristic monarchy with a vaguely National Socialist ideology.

Omsk

27th March 2011, 18:35

Its not a hell hole,but its not a socialist state,while it has many flaws,(almost monarchistic rule and legacy,extreme isolation from the rest of the world,a small number of commodity goods and a number of problems concerning the economics) its not a hell on earth the western media presents it to be,the people are not crazy juche-nationalistic-hardline communist psycho's they tend to be shown like.Just good decent,hard working people,who deserve a better leader,and who deserve socialism and equality.
Its a poor and troubled state,but the media shows the entire population of North Korea in an extremely negative light.Which is simply wrong.

Life is hard.but the media tends to make it look like it is even worse.For instance,the BBC,CNN,and other media instruments showed Yugoslavia like it was some kind of hellish pit of doom,and the people are starving to death,well,in truth,there were no starvations,but there was the lack of goods caused by the western sanctions.
Simply don't believe everything the west says about socialist countries because its never completely true,but also dont tend to believe the situation is normal.Because,unfortunately,its not.

gorillafuck

27th March 2011, 18:49

I would define it as a militaristic monarchy with a vaguely National Socialist ideology.Lol North Korea is not a vaguely nazi monarchy. You're deluded.

North Korea is a left wing military government like Burma. People that call it a fascist monarchy or feudalism or whatever are ridiculous.

mosfeld

27th March 2011, 20:21

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2006/10/061011-d-6570c-001.jpg
I honestly don't know why posting this picture is considered a valid argument. The DPRK is a poor third world nation with a trade embargo under its heel, while ROK is a rich first world country. Do you want food, health care, education, etc, or do you want electricity during the night? Also, instead of comparing the DPRK with ROK, how about comparing it, fairly, with other third world countries -- and while at it, note the advantages that the DPRK has in comparison.

http://www.geni.org/globalenergy/multimedia/earth-at-night016.gif

Delenda Carthago

27th March 2011, 20:28

I heard a few months ago the Kim-Jong Il won another election with 100% of the vote, is this western propaganda or complete bullshit?

Of course its propaganda,ploted by the capitalist pigs and their servants the media. Our beloved Leader(even though just a capital L is not good enough for our beloved Kim, I should probably write it like LEADER) did not won the elections with only 100%. Our beloved LEADER won the elections with 104%,proving to everybody that he's capable to achieve leadership even to people who dont even exist!

Just when I thought that this week we would not have a NK thread...

Delenda Carthago

27th March 2011, 20:31

Also, I take every post that its more positive to DPRK than "nuke them" as trolling and I would like to applaud you guys for the good job.

Gorilla

27th March 2011, 20:32

I honestly don't know why posting this picture is considered a valid argument.

Well it's a step up from "oh lawdy yes its terrible i think i saw on the news a couple months ago they eat bugs instead of having christmas" which has been the level of evidence-based argumentation on a few replies here.

Omsk

27th March 2011, 20:35

Also, I take every post that its more positive to DPRK than "nuke them" as trolling and I would like to applaud you guys for the good job.
Are you even aware the things you say? What do you have against the people of the DPRK?

The Douche

27th March 2011, 20:38

Also, I take every post that its more positive to DPRK than "nuke them" as trolling and I would like to applaud you guys for the good job.

Do you really think the DPRK should be nuked? Are you going to call me a "faggot" for disagreeing with you?

L.A.P.

27th March 2011, 20:40

28350

27th March 2011, 20:45

It's very brave in how it resists imperialism. At the same time, it's very corrupt, so the real working class feels the brunt of the force (is that a real phrase?).

The DPRK is almost entirely supported by it's antagonism with (mainly US) imperialism. Only after a socialist revolution occurred elsewhere strong enough to threaten the US could a new revolution happen in DPRK

Vladimir Innit Lenin

27th March 2011, 20:47

It's probably not a hellhole, and it's not a workers state either.

Fixed. I agree with your sentiment, though. It's difficult to know too much about it beyond the fact that it is a monarchy-led state whose leader has an unspeakable cult around his personality and that of his deceased father.

Delenda Carthago

27th March 2011, 20:47

Do you really think the DPRK should be nuked? Are you going to call me a "faggot" for disagreeing with you?
ROFL

No. I think the word "idiot" is much more suitable for you.:laugh:

Omsk

27th March 2011, 20:51

No. I think the word "idiot" is much more suitable for you.
Well,what kind of a response do you expect.
I cant believe some people in this thread...
Even if you were joking (and i hope you were) this is really not funny.

Delenda Carthago

27th March 2011, 20:52

So,he is an idiot because he doesn't think that millions of hard working people should be killed?
Are you morons serious?Wasnt OBVIOUS even to people with an IQ of a tomato that I was kiddin?WTF?

Omsk

27th March 2011, 20:54

Even if you were joking this is really not funny.
__________________________________________________ __
And your even being vulgar while spaming on the thread.

Delenda Carthago

27th March 2011, 21:01

__________________________________________________ __
And your even being vulgar while spaming on the thread.
Actually its pretty funny. The only more funny things about it is that we have ANOTHER thread on DPRK(like the previous 23234023567323 were not enough) and the fact that I trolled a lil bit and 3 left conservatives jumped on me because I offended their piece of shit morals. Thats damn funny...

Plus, I think that the thread just got some value from my presence. I should be greeted for that!

Sinister Cultural Marxist

27th March 2011, 21:04

I honestly don't know why posting this picture is considered a valid argument. The DPRK is a poor third world nation with a trade embargo under its heel, while ROK is a rich first world country. Do you want food, health care, education, etc, or do you want electricity during the night? Also, instead of comparing the DPRK with ROK, how about comparing it, fairly, with other third world countries -- and while at it, note the advantages that the DPRK has in comparison.

http://www.geni.org/globalenergy/multimedia/earth-at-night016.gif

Except the ROK was a third world country 50-60 years ago. Then, they had similar standards, and North Korea was actually more developed than the South for some time. But the point is North Korea stagnated and the South didn't, and that stagnation should be the ultimate proof of the flaws in their political and economic model.

Sperm-Doll Setsuna

27th March 2011, 21:11

Except the ROK was a third world country 50-60 years ago. Then, they had similar standards, and North Korea was actually more developed than the South for some time. But the point is North Korea stagnated and the South didn't, and that stagnation should be the ultimate proof of the flaws in their political and economic model.

The ROK is an integral part of the world market. They were allowed to subsidise their industries and export their way to economic prosperity, similar to what Japan did earlier, and what Taiwan did at about the same time. The DPRK has not had those advantages.

It means nothing. The DPRK was more developed until the early 1980's when years of state-subsidised exporting began to pay off. The "success" of the South is really the temporary success of Keynesian policies and really proves nothing with regard to the DPRK situation. The South does not have heavy trade embargoes, infact it has quite advantageous trade agreements (its has also quite the protectionist policy in some regards, which has been tolerated by the U.S. exactly to allow the capitalist expansion).

RATM-Eubie

27th March 2011, 21:21

I would rather not have a mad man dictate my life, have a cult of personality around him, crazy up-surd stories about him and his family taught in school, have no voice in the government, not have the gov own everything, and just live in this messed up country.

Sperm-Doll Setsuna

27th March 2011, 21:27

have no voice in the government, not have the gov own everything

You have a voice in the government now? You want private companies owning things? :laugh:

RATM-Eubie

27th March 2011, 21:35

You have a voice in the government now? You want private companies owning things? :laugh:

I would rather live in the US by far with the state of gov here rather than in North Korea. And yes i would not want the government to own everything... I would rather have the workers own it not the government.

Triple A

27th March 2011, 21:40

From my google search I found many happy people living in the workers paradise.
http://www.asianews.it/files/img/N.COREA_(F)_1124_-_Starvation.jpg

Sperm-Doll Setsuna

27th March 2011, 21:43

I would rather live in the US by far with the state of gov here rather than in North Korea. And yes i would not want the government to own everything... I would rather have the workers own it not the government.

The government is not the state. However, what I meant was rather that the issue would be one of who controls the state (state-owned can still be worker controlled), and the state could be worker controlled (not saying DPRK state/government necessarily is).

Kassad

27th March 2011, 21:44

Are you morons serious?Wasnt OBVIOUS even to people with an IQ of a tomato that I was kiddin?WTF?

Consider this a verbal warning for flaming. Stay on topic.

The Douche

27th March 2011, 21:45

ROFL

No. I think the word "idiot" is much more suitable for you.:laugh:

If you really are joking, then troll on.

The sad thing is there probably are people on here who would support imperialist intervention in the DPRK.

Le Socialiste

27th March 2011, 21:47

I tend to be of the opinion that any dynastic system of family succession, propped up and supported by a ruling elite (the Party) and its impoverished citizenry, fits the definition of a "hellhole". When Kim Jong-il, his family, and the inner circle receive lavish, Western gifts and goods while the people receive nothing - you have a problem. Hell, one could say that's your typical capitalist. One thing is for sure: the DPRK ain't heaven on earth.

gorillafuck

27th March 2011, 21:48

There are so many things wrong with that statement.No there's nothing wrong with it. They were/are both military led governments with command economies, ruled by officially socialist parties, and the DPRK adopted Juche while Burma adopted the Burmese Way To Socialism.

RATM-Eubie

27th March 2011, 21:48

The government is not the state. However, what I meant was rather that the issue would be one of who controls the state (state-owned can still be worker controlled), and the state could be worker controlled (not saying DPRK state/government necessarily is).

Just saying in my freedom loving opinion i do believe that the DPRK is probably one of the worst places to live on earth...

Sperm-Doll Setsuna

27th March 2011, 21:56

No there's nothing wrong with it. They were/are both military led governments with command economies, ruled by officially socialist parties, and the DPRK adopted Juche while Burma adopted the Burmese Way To Socialism.

Is the SPCC or whatever the junta-council calls itself still claiming to have any ounce of socialism left? Wasn't quite a bit of the planning apparatus dismantled as well during the 1988 coup? It's very hard to find information on the current Myanmar economy.

Just saying in my freedom loving opinion i do believe that the DPRK is probably one of the worst places to live on earth...

Why is it the worst place to live? It sure isn't a life of lavish luxury, but I'd say there definitely are places you are liable to be worse off. Then again, maybe you find the illusions of the U.S. electoral system to be satisfying.

gorillafuck

27th March 2011, 21:58

Just saying in my freedom loving opinion i do believe that the DPRK is probably one of the worst places to live on earth...http://truemerica.com/uploads/merica.jpg

RATM-Eubie

27th March 2011, 21:59

Is the SPCC or whatever the junta-council calls itself still claiming to have any ounce of socialism left? Wasn't quite a bit of the planning apparatus dismantled as well during the 1988 coup? It's very hard to find information on the current Myanmar economy.

Why is it the worst place to live? It sure isn't a life of lavish luxury, but I'd say there definitely are places you are liable to be worse off. Then again, maybe you find the illusions of the U.S. electoral system to be satisfying.

Id rather have what we have in the US than nothing at all... Not saying that the US's system of election is perfect (because its far from perfect and is need of much improvement) but id rather have it than nothing at all...

gorillafuck

27th March 2011, 22:01

Is the SPCC or whatever the junta-council calls itself still claiming to have any ounce of socialism left? Wasn't quite a bit of the planning apparatus dismantled as well during the 1988 coup? It's very hard to find information on the current Myanmar economy.Yes, the central planning was liberalized, the Burmese Way To Socialism doesn't exist anymore. But 1962-1988 Burma is a very good comparison to modern DPRK (after 1988 it wasn't Burma anyway). That's why I said "were/are" and didn't say Myanmar.

The Man

27th March 2011, 22:02

From my google search I found many happy people living in the workers paradise.
http://www.asianews.it/files/img/N.COREA_(F)_1124_-_Starvation.jpg

Yes, I will admit that they are a deformed Worker's state. But look at the horror!:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4070/4659383518_a89b76447a.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3346/4644148958_e15723847d.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4045/4650339934_be074dddd8.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4064/4659328972_eea01e4006.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4040/4686967367_feb9e36e5d.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4039/4626328432_08d7bd1960.jpg
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1187/1154595819_1c60e4b4d4.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4023/4428292107_6690b10ae1.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2787/4429611554_92cb28faa7.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4071/4603706266_f1010e7da3.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3395/3602426387_e85df2da60.jpg

gorillafuck

27th March 2011, 22:04

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3346/4644148958_e15723847d.jpgWell after seeing this image I don't see how anyone could doubt the DPRK.

727Goon

27th March 2011, 22:09

I'm not sure about hellhole, but I chalk up a country where I would most likely be lined up against the wall and shot for my political beliefs as "somewhere I wouldnt want to live".

RATM-Eubie

27th March 2011, 22:16

After seeing these images I have realized the DPRK is literally heaven on earth. We all should move there!!! Oh wait...... We cant........... :(

Sperm-Doll Setsuna

27th March 2011, 22:18

The worst place in the world doesn't have such nice housing.

http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb463/Junnapon/4591435651.jpg

RATM-Eubie

27th March 2011, 22:18

http://truemerica.com/uploads/merica.jpg

As much as i hate idiots like this huge fat ass man/woman thing i would still rather live in America and TRY to debate with idiots like this one rather than have no voice at all.

The Man

27th March 2011, 22:18

After seeing these images I have realized the DPRK is literally heaven on earth. We all should move there!!! Oh wait...... We cant........... :(

I'm not saying that. Someone posted an Image about how people are starving, and posted pictures of the life in North Korea. I'm not saying we should move there, did I? Why didn't you say anything about the kids starving picture? Plus, I'm not taking anyone's side. If someone provided beautiful pictures, then I would post the horrid ones as well.

Obs

27th March 2011, 22:23

pictures

You know, all you had to do to refute his idiotic point was tell him that he was posting a picture that's almost 20 years old. It's not a secret to anyone that there was a famine in the DPRK during the 90s. This has little to do with the way the country is ruled and more to do with the DPRK losing its entire trade framework in 1991 due to the collapse of the Soviet Union.

The DPRK isn't a great place to live. Especially in rural areas, there is some poverty. However, this is not even remotely comparable to the misery we find in adjacent capitalist countries - Russia and China spring to mind, and parts of South East Asia are also good for this comparison. The DPRK is, in fact, doing remarkably well as a completely isolated socialist economy in an ocean of neoliberal aggression, and, disagreements about the structure of the ruling Party and some of the policies in the DPRK aside (and believe me, I have many), anyone who calls for the dissolution of the DPRK or believes that the Korean people would be better off united under the brutal bourgeois dictatorship of the ROK either has some very strange and theoretically unsound political beliefs, or does not have the interests of the Korean workers in mind.

After seeing these images I have realized the DPRK is literally heaven on earth. We all should move there!!! Oh wait...... We cant........... :(

You sure can. Quite easily, actually. Go ahead and contact a Korean embassy, they'll be happy to help you defect.

Marxach-LÃ©inÃnach

27th March 2011, 22:26

Well I for one would much prefer to live in a flawed socialist country like the DPRK than here in the "free" and "democratic" west that some of the liberals on here seem to love

mosfeld

27th March 2011, 22:52

Dr Mindbender

27th March 2011, 22:56

Lol North Korea is not a vaguely nazi monarchy. You're deluded.

North Korea is a left wing military government like Burma. People that call it a fascist monarchy or feudalism or whatever are ridiculous.

I agree with Dimentio, from an outsiders perspective there are worrying nazi-like traits.

From what i've gathered, reading tourism articles, television reports and everything on the internet it would seem to corroborate the idea that the North Korean authorities have a very aggressive enforcement of indigenous culture coupled with a very negative outlook on foreign cultures (scrambling of television and radio signals/prohibition of international phoneline/ internet access etc). That is neither leftist or progressive.

That said, i would like to visit the DPRK one day. Not to sample a socialist paradise, but purely out of morbid curiosity.

Obs

27th March 2011, 22:59

I agree with Dimentio, from an outsiders perspective there are worrying nazi-like traits.

Then this hypothetical outsider is a fucking idiot.

mosfeld

27th March 2011, 23:06

Also, hey, I can play that game too where you post images!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/8c/Fred_Hampton_dead_body.jpg/250px-Fred_Hampton_dead_body.jpg
http://www.psywar.org/psywar/images/race_lynching.jpg
http://monroeanderson.typepad.com/my_weblog/images/2008/04/08/duluthlynchingpostcard.jpg
http://pneumaticaddict.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/homeless1.jpg
http://www.hmkconnect.com/misc/history/images/homeless.jpg
http://operatorchan.org/cp/arch/src/cp1134_police%20brutality.jpg
http://www.opposingviews.com/attachments/0008/9846/prostitute.jpg
http://www.jcsdesignz.com/import/graphics/July-fourth/Elias-Chatzoudis-God-bless-America-0609.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_oWI0cEEzA4k/Sdys9iXyCkI/AAAAAAAAAQo/cOA0zDeT5aM/S1600-R/drug+addicts.jpg
http://library.thinkquest.org/28172/s.13.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_YldhY2H2N-U/TU7XOItv_4I/AAAAAAAAA74/OJmHvKobIec/s1600/fat-american.jpg
http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/usa/mediums/usa-00203.jpg

mosfeld

27th March 2011, 23:09

I would rather live in the US by far with the state of gov here rather than in North Korea. And yes i would not want the government to own everything... I would rather have the workers own it not the government.

Yeah, it's just too bad that if you're black, latino, native, homosexual, female, muslim, etc, chances are you're living in absolute misery in the USA. Obviously though, from a white, heterosexual, middle class and male perspective living in the USA can be a pretty awesome. But, how about putting yourself in, say, the shoes of a muslim living in the USA?

#FF0000

27th March 2011, 23:23

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_YldhY2H2N-U/TU7XOItv_4I/AAAAAAAAA74/OJmHvKobIec/s1600/fat-american.jpg

This one's not American.

Delenda Carthago

27th March 2011, 23:30

If you really are joking, then troll on.

The sad thing is there probably are people on here who would support imperialist intervention in the DPRK.
Well, I dont know about imperialist intervention, but I sure wouldnt mind a DPRK-style of "treatment" for everybody posting a thread on North Korea every Monday and Thursday.

Delenda Carthago

27th March 2011, 23:33

RATM-Eubie

27th March 2011, 23:33

Yeah, it's just too bad that if you're black, latino, native, homosexual, female, muslim, etc, chances are you're living in absolute misery in the USA. Obviously though, from a white, heterosexual, middle class and male perspective living in the USA can be a pretty awesome. But, how about putting yourself in, say, the shoes of a muslim living in the USA?

Im lovin this guy! I will agree the majority of black, latinos, native americans do live in poverty, but i will gurantee you they are a lot better off than the average North Korean.
Hell the UN just reported that an estimated 6 million North Koreans need food aid.
Or what about how it is "illegal to war South Korean clothing"?
Saying i have several muslim friend living in the US what is your point here? The islamphobia? Hell at least they are not being arrested for speaking out against the "great leader" who once played golf and "had a hole in one on every hole"...

Jose Gracchus

27th March 2011, 23:36

First picture is Fred Hampton, I think. I do (dis)like the ridiculous happy-stripper-sex-object = patriotism graphic. Who is the last guy shot?

#FF0000

27th March 2011, 23:39

Im lovin this guy! I will agree the majority of black, latinos, native americans do live in poverty, but i will gurantee you they are a lot better off than the average North Korean.
Hell the UN just reported that an estimated 6 million North Koreans need food aid.
Or what about how it is "illegal to war South Korean clothing"?
Saying i have several muslim friend living in the US what is your point here? The islamphobia? Hell at least they are not being arrested for speaking out against the "great leader" who once played golf and "had a hole in one on every hole"...

ggggggggggggggggod you are naive.

I mean, the DPRK is some ol bullshit obvious but you literally believe everything they say on the news.

Vladimir Innit Lenin

27th March 2011, 23:40

The DPRK is a very good off country compared to other third world nations and I'd rather live there than anywhere else in the third world. The "totalitarian" argument generally comes from liberals who think that vague "freedoms" are more important than getting plate of food, free education, free health care, etc. If you're living in sub-saharan Africa, you'd probably want to live in the DPRK -- but if you're a middle class person from the west who has it pretty good, of course you don't want to live in the DPRK. Comparing the DPRK to rich first world nations is unfair.

And herein lies your lack of respect for democracy. Not liberal democracy or some liberal apology of Capitalism, but Socialist democracy.

What happened to the idea that workers control the means of production? What happened to the idea of revolution of the workers, by the workers and for the workers?

It really is a sad day, every fucking day I see people defending monarchy, dictatorship and state-sponsored repression that transcends class warfare, simply because said country has 'food, free education and free healthcare'.

gorillafuck

27th March 2011, 23:43

I agree with Dimentio, from an outsiders perspective there are worrying nazi-like traits.No there are not.

ggggggggggggggggod you are naive.

I mean, the DPRK is some ol bullshit obvious but you literally believe everything they say on the news.Pffft, next you'll be saying Iraq doesn't have WMD's.

Delenda Carthago

27th March 2011, 23:44

What happened to the idea that workers control the means of production? What happened to the idea of revolution of the workers, by the workers and for the workers?

DPRK throwed them out of the window, together with marxism,leninism and stalinism.

Obs

27th March 2011, 23:47

And herein lies your lack of respect for democracy. Not liberal democracy or some liberal apology of Capitalism, but Socialist democracy.

What happened to the idea that workers control the means of production? What happened to the idea of revolution of the workers, by the workers and for the workers?

It really is a sad day, every fucking day I see people defending monarchy, dictatorship and state-sponsored repression that transcends class warfare, simply because said country has 'food, free education and free healthcare'.

DPRK throwed them out of the window, together with marxism,leninism and stalinism.

aaargh i should not have walked into this thread now i am covered in semen.

Garret

27th March 2011, 23:47

While recognising that potential propaganda is potential propaganda no matter who produces it, the following video (may be disturbing) may prove to be something of an antidote to the idea that DPRK is Best Korea. I understand that the young woman at the beginning of the video died of malnutrition days after filming. Barrel of laughs, I'm sure.

Those who - not unreasonably - object to YouTube as a source can go straight to the original source (http://www.asiapress.org/rimjingang/english/).

Xh4CtTGAzKw

Dr Mindbender

28th March 2011, 00:12

No there are not.

National culture fetishisation. -check

Heavy handed clampdowns on freedom of information and association- check

Heavy handed border controls. -check

Disproportionate emphasis and spending on military- check.

I mean JHC how fascist do they need to be before they arent leftist.

mosfeld

28th March 2011, 00:15

And herein lies your lack of respect for democracy. Not liberal democracy or some liberal apology of Capitalism, but Socialist democracy.

What happened to the idea that workers control the means of production? What happened to the idea of revolution of the workers, by the workers and for the workers?

It really is a sad day, every fucking day I see people defending monarchy, dictatorship and state-sponsored repression that transcends class warfare, simply because said country has 'food, free education and free healthcare'.

I never even claimed that the country was socialist and I have absolutely no illusions about who's in control there. However, my original argument still stands -- living standards are more important than vague liberal freedoms.

gorillafuck

28th March 2011, 00:15

National culture fetishisation. -check

Heavy handed clampdowns on freedom of information and association- check

Heavy handed border controls. -check

Disproportionate emphasis and spending on military- check.

I mean JHC how fascist do they need to be before they arent leftist.That describes the US. Is the US somewhat nazi?

Answer: No. Neither the US or the DPRK are crypto-nazi.

Dr Mindbender

28th March 2011, 00:30

That describes the US. Is the US somewhat nazi?

Answer: No. Neither the US or the DPRK are crypto-nazi.

It doesnt describe the US. The USA is a liberal plutocracy with some authoritarian domestic policies. There is way more things you would be arrested for in the DPRK than you would in the USA (such as giving disrespect to the government). Another thing, at least in the USA you have the option of leaving! NK's border controls cut both ways, not just coming in (from what i understand its nearly as difficult to obtain a visa as it is for residents to leave). Thats not to say that the USA has a great system but its way up on my imaginary list of 'places i'd be willing to live' over North Korea.

The fact that no North Koreans can contribute to this thread should speak volumes.

In conclusion NEITHER the US or DPRK are leftist.

Sperm-Doll Setsuna

28th March 2011, 00:38

It doesnt describe the US. The USA is a liberal plutocracy with some authoritarian domestic policies. There is way more things you would be arrested for in the DPRK than you would in the USA (such as giving disrespect to the government). Another thing, at least in the USA you have the option of leaving! NK's border controls cut both ways, not just coming in (from what i understand its nearly as difficult to obtain a visa as it is for residents to leave). Thats not to say that the USA has a great system but its way up on my imaginary list of 'places i'd be willing to live' over North Korea.

The fact that no North Koreans can contribute to this thread should speak volumes.

You cannot easily get out of the United States. Most countries have very restrictive immigration policies, and if you are not comparatively wealthy or have a job-offer in another country, you're not going to have an easy time getting out of the US, or well, most industrialised countries.

gorillafuck

28th March 2011, 00:39

National culture fetishisation. - Oh lord do we have that here.

Heavy handed clampdowns on freedom of information and association- Cointelpro, anyone?

Heavy handed border controls. - Do militias running the border count as heavy handed?

Disproportionate emphasis and spending on military- Oh wow yeah.

obviously the DPRK is more authoritarian than the US. But if those things are the criteria for being a crypto-nazi government, then the US would qualify.

Dr Mindbender

28th March 2011, 00:53

National culture fetishisation. - Oh lord do we have that here.

American society is built on a melting pot of lots of cultures. According to the UK government travel advice, attempting to bring items such as books, videos etc into the DPRK may lead to them being confiscated as they are viewed as subversive, degenerate pornagraphic etc.

Heavy handed clampdowns on freedom of information and association- Cointelpro, anyone?
No ones arguing that the USA is a paragon of freedom of association (looking up cointelpro it was illegal even by the standards of the constitution and since shut down) but the information that trickles out of the DPRK suggests that the authorities actively crack down on dissidence with impunity and with the sanction of local law.

Heavy handed border controls. - Do militias running the border count as heavy handed?
Sure but at least the militias dont shoot at you for TRYING TO LEAVE.

Disproportionate emphasis and spending on military- Oh wow yeah.
Its a matter of scale though. The USA doesnt spend beyond its means on the military... its the worlds largest GDP and can afford its toys. North korea on the other hand spends enough on its army to rival its developed rival to the south while it allows workers to drop dead from malnutrition.

obviously the DPRK is more authoritarian than the US.

Well at least we agree there.

But if those things are the criteria for being a crypto-nazi government, then the US would qualify.
In national socialism, the government gives some progressive style concessions (ergo the socialism) to appease the workers such as state healthcare, education etc. Where is the socialism part in the US?

Still doesnt make the DPRK leftist. Even Hitler gave such concessions to the Germans.

Dr Mindbender

28th March 2011, 00:58

You cannot easily get out of the United States.
For some reason i doubt that. Its no secret that the border control with Canada is somewhat lacklustre and that Mexico is an infamous refuge for American criminals fleeing the law. Even with that, its much easier for an American to get a European visa than someone from the developing world.

Im not american so its harder for me to comment. As an EU citizen its exceedingly easy for me to travel between neighbouring European nations. In some ways, the UK parliamentary system is even more reactionary than the US. We have here the house of lords (unelected bourgeoisie peers) with the power of veto over every motion put forward by our elected officials.

Gorilla

28th March 2011, 01:34

I support the DPRK against imperialism and maybe even to a very limited extent politically but you would have to be fucking nuts to want to live there. Seriously. If nothing else there's the very real issue of economic embargo and the threat of war from the imperialist powers. If you seriously support the DPRK you understand how terrible and crushing these are for the population so why the Christ would you want to live under them?

gorillafuck

28th March 2011, 01:42

American society is built on a melting pot of lots of cultures. According to the UK government travel advice, attempting to bring items such as books, videos etc into the DPRK may lead to them being confiscated as they are viewed as subversive, degenerate pornagraphic etc.Oh lord.

No ones arguing that the USA is a paragon of freedom of association (looking up cointelpro it was illegal even by the standards of the constitution and since shut down) but the information that trickles out of the DPRK suggests that the authorities actively crack down on dissidence with impunity and with the sanction of local law.That's not why it was shut down. It was shut down because it was no longer necessary. And the DPRK breaks it's own constitution, local law does not say that they can crack down on speech.

Sure but at least the militias dont shoot at you for TRYING TO LEAVE.Trying to get in, on the other hand.

Its a matter of scale though. The USA doesnt spend beyond its means on the military... its the worlds largest GDP and can afford its toys. North korea on the other hand spends enough on its army to rival its developed rival to the south while it allows workers to drop dead from malnutrition.The US spends ludicrous amounts of money but won't have state run healthcare and won't spend money on housing despite massive foreclosures. You act as if the US is spending it's military budget after it takes care of it's people.:lol:

In national socialism, the government gives some progressive style concessions (ergo the socialism) to appease the workers such as state healthcare, education etc. Where is the socialism part in the US?Are you serious? That's actually not a part of nazism. Also, the US does have public education....

The Vegan Marxist

28th March 2011, 01:44

No ones arguing that the USA is a paragon of freedom of association (looking up cointelpro it was illegal even by the standards of the constitution and since shut down)

You are so fucking delusional, it's seriously not even funny. How about the Feds raiding the homes of members of my organization and the Anti-War Committee?

Gorilla

28th March 2011, 03:12

News flash: if you've posted anything vaguely positive about DPRK (among other things) on the internet, you have an FBI file. Matter of fact, probably every Revleft member has an FBI file. Not that it will most likely make a difference in your life - but it's there.

Tim Finnegan

28th March 2011, 03:19

Is the DPRK really a hellhole?
According to Nothing To Envy by Barbara Demick, a book based on first-hand reports from within the DPRK, it's not a hellhole, but just about any other prefix would fit.

Matter of fact, probably every Revleft member has an FBI file. Not that it will most likely make a difference in your life - but it's there.
Aw, c'mon, we're have to at least, I don't know, chuck a brick somewhere, or something, don't we?

Gorilla

28th March 2011, 04:57

Aw, c'mon, we're have to at least, I don't know, chuck a brick somewhere, or something, don't we?

Guess we'll find out when the FOIA date comes. ;)

NoOneIsIllegal

28th March 2011, 05:27

Lol North Korea is not a vaguely nazi monarchy. You're deluded.

North Korea is a left wing military government like Burma. People that call it a fascist monarchy or feudalism or whatever are ridiculous.
I wouldn't call a "left-wing" military government, at all. Military government? Check. But besides adopting "socialist" in it's name many decades ago, there is nothing left-wing about it. It's honestly the country I feel most sad for.

There are a few inspiring stories though, like the refugees who live on the border in Thailand and will do quick run-in's to help the wounded (who are basically tortured by the military).

As for the DPRK, well... fuck. Western media probably blows it a bit out of proportion, but essentially it's a hell-hole. It's a shithole, and the media tries to make it a super-duper shithole.

pranabjyoti

28th March 2011, 05:49

Dr Mindbender

28th March 2011, 11:37

Ultimately the DPRK isnt responsible for its own problems, and in some ways it is responsible. The Korean war and subsequent embargos coupled by the collapse of soviet aid didnt help things. On the other hand nor has its isolationist Juche foreign policy that has succeeded in alienating its neighbours or its failure to practice er y'know... ...actual socialism. It would also be easier to be sympathetic to the Juche government if Kim Il Sung didnt ride around in a bullet proof train with a harem of concubines in between when he isnt in his presidential mansion watching western movies all day.

The DPRK needs a Chavez-like benevolent leader. Someone who isnt a hypocrite and/or completely delusional about the needs of his people. Unfortunately that leader can only be ushered to power BY the North Korean people.

4 Leaf Clover

28th March 2011, 16:27

Due to its Ideological path , DPRK leadership is trying to avoid economical deals with other countries that would be in a way , exploition of DPRK resources and work force. I say trying because they try to find compromise between some arrangements and complete isolation that would be harmfull for own population

Vladimir Innit Lenin

28th March 2011, 22:03

So far I haven't got a proper answer to this question from DPRK "critics(!)". If DPRK is really a hellhole, then whether the "monarchist" leadership is mostly responsible for that or the embargo? NO PROPER ANSWER YET TO THIS QUESTION.

It has been answered many times.

The DPRK is probably not a hellhole, but that is no reason to defend it. I personally attack the DPRK because the superstructure, in terms of the country's political-social reality, seems to be revolved around this erroneous cult of personality around Kim Jong Il and his dead father, and because the base seems to be totally destroyed - there seems to be no working class agitation for Socialism inside the DPRK and so, in its current form, it cannot transcend its current Juche ideology.

The people of Korea can do better than the DPRK and, as dissent against Kim Jong Il and Juche is seemingly not allowed, i'll voice my opposition to the monarchical superstructure.

pranabjyoti

29th March 2011, 05:46

It has been answered many times.

The DPRK is probably not a hellhole, but that is no reason to defend it. I personally attack the DPRK because the superstructure, in terms of the country's political-social reality, seems to be revolved around this erroneous cult of personality around Kim Jong Il and his dead father, and because the base seems to be totally destroyed - there seems to be no working class agitation for Socialism inside the DPRK and so, in its current form, it cannot transcend its current Juche ideology.

The people of Korea can do better than the DPRK and, as dissent against Kim Jong Il and Juche is seemingly not allowed, i'll voice my opposition to the monarchical superstructure.
Then the question is what is more dangerous the workers and people of DPRK? The Kim "dynasty" or the imperialist embargo and blockade? "Both" will be the most idiotic answer IMO.

RATM-Eubie

29th March 2011, 05:52

Then the question is what is more dangerous the workers and people of DPRK? The Kim "dynasty" or the imperialist embargo and blockade? "Both" will be the most idiotic answer IMO.

Kim Dynasty.

pranabjyoti

29th March 2011, 06:12

Kim Dynasty.
Ya, I expected that kind of reply. But just curious, why so much embargo and blockade for such a long time can't nail that very basic idea in the heads of N Korean workers and people? Are they so much blunt head?

black magick hustla

29th March 2011, 06:31

probably as bad as any third world capitalist shithole

Sinister Cultural Marxist

29th March 2011, 07:06

Then the question is what is more dangerous the workers and people of DPRK? The Kim "dynasty" or the imperialist embargo and blockade? "Both" will be the most idiotic answer IMO.

Considering its right next to the PRC, it really shouldn't have any trouble finding trading partners. Cuba does a lot better despite being geographically much farther from any possible importers. Certainly, it has never once had a serious famine the way the DRPK did.

If Kim devoted his tax revenue to hospitals, education, agriculture and infrastructure, his country would be a much nicer place regardless of the blockade. It wouldn't be great, but they wouldn't be starving there.

RedHal

29th March 2011, 09:29

I'm not sure about hellhole, but I chalk up a country where I would most likely be lined up against the wall and shot for my political beliefs as "somewhere I wouldnt want to live".

ummm Fred Hampton. Yeah sure liberal democracy will allow you to babble on about how aweful the government is and let you super glue some parking meters without shooting you. But if you do anything significant, you'll see how free you are to express your political beliefs:rolleyes:

pranabjyoti

29th March 2011, 09:33

Considering its right next to the PRC, it really shouldn't have any trouble finding trading partners. Cuba does a lot better despite being geographically much farther from any possible importers. Certainly, it has never once had a serious famine the way the DRPK did.

If Kim devoted his tax revenue to hospitals, education, agriculture and infrastructure, his country would be a much nicer place regardless of the blockade. It wouldn't be great, but they wouldn't be starving there.
Well, I am curious about how much trade relation between PRC and DPRK exists at present? Remember, Cuba don't have to face a long devastating war and it's military threat from US isn't as strong as the threat from ROK to DPRK.

Vladimir Innit Lenin

29th March 2011, 11:19

Pranabjyoti: Kim dynasty (at least you can admit it's a dynasty). The reason being that one has Cuba to compare the DPRK to. Cuba has had the most horrendous embargo placed on it, yet it is not a bad place to live at all. In Cuba, although there is a deficit of democracy at a national level, there is a fairly lively grassroots democracy (the CDRs) and despite market reforms in the past few years, there is not a clear class of haves or have nots, even when you compare government figures with ordinary workers.

In North Korea, there seems to be a massive gulf between the Kim regime and ordinary people, and there certainly seems to be a class of haves, and a class of have nots. This makes me think that the divide between haves and have nots, in economic and political power terms, would exist even without an embargo.

RATM-Eubie

29th March 2011, 15:46

bailey_187

29th March 2011, 16:19

RATM-Eubie

29th March 2011, 16:34

Isnt that what the glorious Juche is is being slef sufficient and isolating itself?

Geiseric

29th March 2011, 17:07

Kassad

29th March 2011, 17:13

Maybe is would be a good idea to stop funding so much in the military and more sending more funding towards agricultural reforms and improving the economy. A smaller military makes for easier foreign policy as well, I doubt anybody would straight up invade if the military is smaller.

The DPRK has missiles aimed at it and is consistently threatened by military intervention from South Korea and the United States. It is suffering under brutal economic sanctions. If it allows its military to become underfunded, the country is going to just be occupied by imperialist troops and then the people of Korea will suffer yet another historic setback. You might be one of the biggest chauvinists I've ever responded to. The United States doesn't just keep troops on the border for shits and giggles. It wants to take away Korea's independence and revert it back to an imperialist colony.

Rooster

29th March 2011, 17:15

Omsk

29th March 2011, 17:20

Don't you see?! They need that army to ward off those power hungry imperialists! It's perfectly justifiable!
There i fixed that.

Maybe is would be a good idea to stop funding so much in the military and more sending more funding towards agricultural reforms and improving the economy. A smaller military makes for easier foreign policy as well, I doubt anybody would straight up invade if the military is smaller.
North Korea has a large army,(on of the largest though) but its not funding it more than other countries..
You Americans are spending more on your high tech weapons to 'spread democracy' than the NK does..

Geiseric

29th March 2011, 17:53

There i fixed that.

North Korea has a large army,(on of the largest though) but its not funding it more than other countries..
You Americans are spending more on your high tech weapons to 'spread democracy' than the NK does..

>implying that ALL americans want to have a large army and support the war effort

Nobody's going to simply invade north korea, whether they have an army or not. You donlt see people simply invading countries in south america or africa when they have weak armies. Besides, from a military and economic point of view, an invasion of north korea would be pointless. There isn't an abundance of natural resourses, ''communism'' isn't really a big threat to the west, and it's useless from a military point of view unless they were planning on invading china or other parts of asia through north korea, which mind you is more or less isolated geographically.

Basically, saying that North Korea will be invaded has the same logic as when people thought egypt was going to be invaded during their regime change. It's being paranoid.

Omsk

29th March 2011, 18:02

You donlt see people simply invading countries in south america or africa when they have weak armies.
The US backed by NATO invaded a lot of countries.

Basically, saying that North Korea will be invaded has the same logic as when people thought egypt was going to be invaded during their regime change. It's being paranoid.
You mean like Libya was attacked?

>implying that ALL americans want to have a large army and support the war effort
No i am not implying on that.

Sinister Cultural Marxist

29th March 2011, 18:28

Well, I am curious about how much trade relation between PRC and DPRK exists at present? Remember, Cuba don't have to face a long devastating war and it's military threat from US isn't as strong as the threat from ROK to DPRK.

The PRC is North Korea's biggest trade partner, but I think the total trade is under a billion dollars. There's a huge market for North Korean resources in China that the North Korean government has done little to exploit.

As for the military threat to DPRK vs Cuba ... that's not quite true, the DPRK has the world's 4th biggest army, and that's almost as many as your country India which is many times as large in terms of population. It has one of the biggest tank forces in the world, and thousands of pieces of artillery. It also has nuclear weapons, which obviously took huge resources to construct, even though the ROK itself does not have nuclear weapons nor does Japan. It certainly has a larger military than the ROK, which has focused more of its energy on economic growth, and less on military expansion. So the DRPK has a great offensive capability, implying that the powerful military it has not really meant to "defend the homeland" from the ROK. On the other hand Cuba has a tiny military. If the US wanted to take out Cuba they could do it easily.

You also forget that the DPRK's biggest military ally, China, is right next to it too. China wouldn't allow the ROK to attack the DPRK.

Geiseric

29th March 2011, 19:49

The U.S. Backed by NATO only invades when already established relations are in jeopardy. Libya was attacked because oil intrests were threatened. Egypt is replaceable by other countries in the middle east as a strategic point for aid going to Israel.

The U.S. Has no intrests, other than south korea and japan in that region. And china, for obvious reasons. Unless south korea, japan, or any other trade partners are in jeopardy, the U.S. Will not attack the north. Iraq was invaded because Saddam Hussein threatened Kuwait. Vietnam because american intrests in south vietnam were threatened. The same logic goes to Korea. They won't be invaded for simply being North Korea, a remnant of Stalinist communism, etc. They have nothing to worry about unless they're planning to be beligerant towards U.S. Intrests in asia.

727Goon

29th March 2011, 21:44

ummm Fred Hampton. Yeah sure liberal democracy will allow you to babble on about how aweful the government is and let you super glue some parking meters without shooting you. But if you do anything significant, you'll see how free you are to express your political beliefs:rolleyes:

As fucked up as the US is it aint got shit on North Korea. If there were Black Panthers in North Korea, it wouldnt have been a handful of arrests and police shootings, every single one of them would be at the very least thrown in the gulags if not executed and the organization would be shut the fuck down from the start. They wouldnt fuck around with no top secret COINTEL PRO shit, they would outright arrest or kill them all and no one would be surprised. Oh wait they couldnt form a group like that in North Korea in the first place since only the pigs have guns. I'm not by any means saying we have it good in America, but yeah I'm kind of glad I can at least ***** about the government or capitalism without getting shot.

Rafiq

29th March 2011, 21:53

After seeing these images I have realized the DPRK is literally heaven on earth. We all should move there!!! Oh wait...... We cant........... :(

See the flaws in your logic.

Those photos are probably bullshit, form the Glorious Leaders government.

But why should we believe the photo you posted is any more credible than the ones user: 'The Man' posted?

North Korea isn't the worst country on Earth to live in, actually, far from it. But it still is an Anti-Worker state.

I don't see how it's even a 'deformed workers state'. There isn't anything workerish about the state.

Rafiq

29th March 2011, 21:54

Well I for one would much prefer to live in a flawed socialist country like the DPRK than here in the "free" and "democratic" west that some of the liberals on here seem to love

Are you kidding?

It's undeniable that the west has better living standards than the DPRK, but that doesn't have anything to do with Capitalism.

29th March 2011, 22:02

Are you kidding?

It's undeniable that the west has better living standards than the DPRK, but that doesn't have anything to do with Capitalism.

No, I would still rather live in a poor socialist country than a rich capitalist country that only has the living standard it does because of imperialism and genocide

Delenda Carthago

29th March 2011, 22:11

So? Is it or is it not?Whats the court's decision? People of RevLeft need to know! We packin our bags or not?

RATM-Eubie

29th March 2011, 22:11

See the flaws in your logic.

Those photos are probably bullshit, form the Glorious Leaders government.

But why should we believe the photo you posted is any more credible than the ones user: 'The Man' posted?

North Korea isn't the worst country on Earth to live in, actually, far from it. But it still is an Anti-Worker state.

I don't see how it's even a 'deformed workers state'. There isn't anything workerish about the state.

never posted any photos.....
But let me rephrase my comments. Its one of the hell holes that are on this earth. Defiantly one of the top 5 worst places to live......

Delenda Carthago

29th March 2011, 22:16

http://kimjongillookingatthings.tumblr.com/

psgchisolm

29th March 2011, 22:22

No, I would still rather live in a poor deformed workers state with a personality cult than a rich capitalist country that only has the living standard it does because of imperialism and genocidefixed

So? Is it or is it not?Whats the court's decision? People of RevLeft need to know! We packin our bags or not?I prefer to stay in a country where I have the opportunity to vote for possible Socialist candidates instead of Der führer where my vote likely doesn't count or there are no other candidates to vote for. If this isn't the case for you, and you like having one candidate on a ballot by all means go.

never posted any photos.....
But let me rephrase my comments. Its one of the hell holes that are on this earth. Defiantly one of the top 5 worst places to live......He doesn't understand sarcasm.;)

Delenda Carthago

29th March 2011, 22:29

I prefer to stay in a country where I have the opportunity to vote for possible Socialist candidates instead of Der führer where my vote likely doesn't count or there are no other candidates to vote for. If this isn't the case for you, and you like having one candidate on a ballot by all means go.

Yes, but why would you vote anyway? Our beloved Leader Kim Yong Il knows everything better than anyone, including who we should vote for.So?

Sperm-Doll Setsuna

29th March 2011, 22:33

I prefer to stay in a country where I have the opportunity to vote for possible Socialist candidates instead of Der führer where my vote likely doesn't count or there are no other candidates to vote for. If this isn't the case for you, and you like having one candidate on a ballot by all means go.

Good one. Your vote counts! Are you just kidding or are you so hopelessly naïve you think your vote counts, and that you could... you know.. vote in a socialist? Vote, change, illegal, etc.

psgchisolm

29th March 2011, 22:41

Good one. Your vote counts! Are you just kidding or are you so hopelessly naïve you think your vote counts, and that you could... you know.. vote in a socialist? Vote, change, illegal, etc.If I could vote, Yes my vote would count. Everyone that votes for a socialist takes us one step closer to our goal. Rather than not voting and not helping the left at all and then complaining about capitalism. Baby steps, they didn't build Rome in a day you know.

Tifosi

29th March 2011, 22:46

If I could vote, Yes my vote would count. Everyone that votes for a socialist takes us one step closer to our goal. Rather than not voting and not helping the left at all and then complaining about capitalism. Baby steps, they didn't build Rome in a day you know.

Aaaaah, the reformism, it hurts, it hurts!

Sperm-Doll Setsuna

29th March 2011, 22:46

Tavarisch_Mike

30th March 2011, 13:11

never posted any photos.....
But let me rephrase my comments. Its one of the hell holes that are on this earth. Defiantly one of the top 5 worst places to live......

And you can say this because you have lived in evry single place on earth?

Evrything is relative, i think life as a textile worker in Pyongyang might be better then living as a castless prostitute in India, or as a "illegal" immigrant in Stockholm whos hiding and trying to avoid too be kicked out of the country and to survive. Im sure life as a refuge in Darfur ore a homeless junkie in New York isnt too sweet either. Besides what exactly makes you think that a worker ore peseants life in NK is so different frome that in PRC eccept that they are guaranteed housing, jobs, education and healthcare. And which are the other "top 4"?

mosfeld

30th March 2011, 16:13

never posted any photos.....
But let me rephrase my comments. Its one of the hell holes that are on this earth. Defiantly one of the top 5 worst places to live......

Your comment is an insult to the people living in the third world :) Would you rather live in sub-Saharan Africa or maybe South Asia rather than the DPRK?

RATM-Eubie

30th March 2011, 16:54

And you can say this because you have lived in evry single place on earth?

Evrything is relative, i think life as a textile worker in Pyongyang might be better then living as a castless prostitute in India, or as a "illegal" immigrant in Stockholm whos hiding and trying to avoid too be kicked out of the country and to survive. Im sure life as a refuge in Darfur ore a homeless junkie in New York isnt too sweet either. Besides what exactly makes you think that a worker ore peseants life in NK is so different frome that in PRC eccept that they are guaranteed housing, jobs, education and healthcare. And which are the other "top 4"?

Yea what is that quality of housing in NK? Or that healthcare? Or how about that education? That healthcare in North Korea serously? A recent report done by the WHO points out that only 60% of the population had access to improved sanitation facilities... Last i checked the health care industry in North Korea was crumbling...
You people need to pick up on sarcasm people.. I obvisouly wouldn't want to live in like Darfur or anything but North Korea is probably the LAST industrialized country i would want to live in, in all seriousness...
I would much rather live in the US or China than North Korea...

Tavarisch_Mike

30th March 2011, 19:52

Yea what is that quality of housing in NK? Or that healthcare? Or how about that education? That healthcare in North Korea serously? A recent report done by the WHO points out that only 60% of the population had access to improved sanitation facilities... Last i checked the health care industry in North Korea was crumbling...

I do not doubt that theire system might have those issues, still better then in many other third world countries. According to WHO the life expectancy for males in NK is 64 and 68 for females. http://www.who.int/countries/prk/en/ which still (ofcourse) isnt high, but high for the circumstances, especially comparing to other third world countries. I would seriously very much see where you last checked youre info.

You people need to pick up on sarcasm people.. I obvisouly wouldn't want to live in like Darfur or anything but North Korea is probably the LAST industrialized country i would want to live in, in all seriousness...
I would much rather live in the US or China than North Korea...

You know sarcasm doesnt work very well written. I would agree that i rather live in the first world no question abou that, but when it comes to China i dont follow the argumentation. Life as a coal miner in the province of Shandong might not be to good, neither the fact that thousands of workers dies frome terrible accidents in the chineese industry ore that the country got a hughe amount of climate refuges in its own country. The rural areas arnt to developed and makes me wonder whats expected to be soo much better in China frome NK, not that life in Nk issome sort of paradise either its just a matter of perspective.