human nature argument - all about it

[Black Sheep]

I'm making a youtube video addressing this (as i m getting flooded by this nonsense) and i wanna make sure i covered all of its aspects.
So help me,comrades.

statement:
1)humans are inherently greedy,selfish
2)because of that, a society based on communist standards is bound to fail

debunking:
-humans are not only (1),but also kind, altruistic etc.Whatever their biology allows, they can be.
-the environment is #1 factor of determining human behavior
-capitalism demands greed & selfishness in order ot survive in it
-the argument is only an excuse


any more?

[Robespierre Richard]

"Would you say then, that you are a greedy and selfish person?"

[Black Sheep]

Nah, they'll answer "yes" just to troll.:p

[Robespierre Richard]

Nah, they'll answer "yes" just to troll.:p

"Oh okay."

Also lol youtube.

[Gorilla]

Don't argue against it at all.

Of course people are greedy and selfish, also prideful, vain, lazy, etc. That's why they fucking hate "voluntarily" locking themselves in a factory or office 8-10 hours a day to build someone else's profit with no dignity or autonomy in the process of production whatsoever. It's why they hate having to bow and scrape and tug their forelocks for the boss man - or else starve. That's why they will and must eventually figure out a system where the mass of people don't have to live like fucking animals, slaves or (at best) fattened domestic help.

Communism isn't compatible with human nature? LOL like capitalism is.

[al-Afghani]

"But they are only altruistic because it makes them feel good, thus they are truly selfish. In the end selfishness, and thus capitalism, exceeds all."

Not that it particularly matters if one is kind out of selfishness or just plain kind (I wouldn't care, as long as they're kind) but that argument there is one typical of poor innocent minds who just read one of Ayn Rand's fantasy novels.

[Octavian]

I don't understand how people even feel the argument of "human nature" can be valid. If anything one could observe our society and learn that human nature is to adapt to our environment to fit our need for survival.

For example pissing and shitting in a toilet isn't exactly "human nature" but we curbed public urination and defecation through law and societal views enough that your neighbor's kids don't lay a deuce on your lawn.

[Kléber]

I also like to flip the argument upside down. Capitalism doesn't work because of human nature, it robs workers of the value of their labor, so this unfair system contains within itself the seed of its own destruction. People are greedy, sure, but we can also have greed in a collective sense; we are social animals after all. Workers are smart enough to improve their lives by democratically working together instead of individually buying lottery tickets and killing/robbing their neighbors for a quick buck. Eventually enough people will see that there's no getting rich in this crooked system; only through class organization and struggle, the workers will realize that the best way to improve their own social conditions is to organize collectively to seize the means of production and reorganize the economy along socialist, democratic lines. Greed is good, but we should be greedy as a class. :D

[Dimmu]

Humans are very adaptable species. We adapt to the environment that we are born in.

If we are born into a culture where greed and egoism is rampant and where your only dream is to make a million, then of course most of the people will "adapt" to such environment by becoming greedy and selfish.

[PhoenixAsh]

I'd say that if it is human nature to be greedy the best way to satisfy that greed is in a communist system. Since then these things will be obtainable instead of constantly out of your reach.

If people are greedy by nature that means that its coded in genes. If it is coded in genes then its a question of if the genes get to get expressed. And THAT hinges on environment. Genes only get expressed under certain circumstances. So environment: upbringing, individual situation, situational chance...will make people greedy.

I also dispute ALL people are greedy by nature. SOME people are greedy....most people are not. They simply want to live comfortably. Now...that may be because they are not in an opportunity to be greedy,...but that just proves a communist society can work.

[Le Socialiste]

I'm making a youtube video addressing this (as i m getting flooded by this nonsense) and i wanna make sure i covered all of its aspects.
So help me,comrades.

statement:
1)humans are inherently greedy,selfish
2)because of that, a society based on communist standards is bound to fail

debunking:
-humans are not only (1),but also kind, altruistic etc.Whatever their biology allows, they can be.
-the environment is #1 factor of determining human behavior
-capitalism demands greed & selfishness in order ot survive in it
-the argument is only an excuse


any more?

I meet with this type of argument all the time (“humans are inherently greedy, etc. etc.”). The thing is, human nature is practically impossible to define, and varies across entire societies. There is no such thing as “human nature”, that is, it is constructed and internalized by society. It is a nebulous process through which we interpret and understand our environments. If anything, human nature is what we make it. Primitive man quite often relied on and engaged in cooperative activities with those within his “community” (I use this term loosely, as such groups varied in number), thus creating a system that required a certain selflessness in order to ensure the stability and survival of the tribe. This type of behavior has been carried down throughout the centuries, and certain societies continue the practice to this day. As city-states, empires and nations grew, we begin to see the beginnings of what we understand as the development of the class, and with it the sense of class struggle. These countries/empires relied on the coercive authority of the state, which further propagated the competitive “nature” of man and encouraged his devolution into a selfish, self-seeking beast. Social conditioning and the construction of our environments, then, can play a major—if not pivotal—role in the belief that humanity is incapable of cooperation and what we leftists may assume to be the “standards and theories” of socialism/communism.

Certainly, there is a side of man that is inclined towards this narcissistic behavior; however, I would argue that our selfishness is amplified only when placed in situations that require/demand a near-worshipful attitude towards the “supremeness” of the individual over the collective. Case in point: U.S. capitalism. The state of America is one that praises individuality, frowning on group efforts save for those that act within its established influence. American capitalism relies on the backwardness of the individual, the individual that seeks to better himself at the expense of those around him (not including family and other similar connections). This “sink-or-swim” belief is held in such esteem it has quite possibly surpassed religion (and arguably become something of a religion in and of itself). It is quite bound up in the essence of the American psyche, so much so that any attempt—at present—to change it is met with a ferocity as expected as it is unsettling. It is held up by the American capitalist as “human nature”, and as such compatible with the capitalistic state of mind, thus proving to be the “epitome of human development”. This is, of course, dependent on one’s environment. If one is raised within a capitalistic society, he/she is going to adapt to the expectations of said society. Even those who adhere to the left, and are brought up on its own understandings of man’s material conditions within the capitalist state are likely to revert to these expected norms.

Those that attempt to interpret and define socialism within a capitalistic society (by which I mean conceding to the established “rules” of human behavior/nature as natural and universal) are doomed to failure. By sacrificing socialism’s ideals for political recognition and seats within the chambers of “democracy”, they resign themselves to the supremacy of capitalism. By challenging capitalism on its own terms, socialists cannot hope to sustain any prolonged campaign against it, nor can they expect it to retain the revolutionary qualities and abilities of the class struggle. We can see this failure in the current socialist and communist parties—especially those that may have seats in government—as well as in the official trade unions and bureaucracies. From austerity measures in Portugal and union/leftist condemnation of striking air traffic controllers in Spain; to defusing potential workers’ and peoples’ uprisings in Tunisia, Egypt, France, and America; those who seek to indulge in parliamentary and election games are little more than opportunists, using the support of the working class to seize power. These people/organizations, so long as they enjoy the support of the people, will continue to indulge in the power-struggles of the capitalist elite, and as such condemn their members to the same misery as their counterparts. The solution? Break with these parties, these organizations, those that carry the belief that man is a naturally selfish, hardened brute incapable of cooperation and recognizing the needs of the masses. Tear the veil from people’s eyes, so that they may see the roots of their “nature”—the capitalist state. If the people understand this, they sow the seeds of future dissent. We have seen how easy it is for people to cast off their long-held beliefs about human behavior/nature: simply look at the efforts and camaraderie of the demonstrators in Tunisia and Egypt, throughout the uprisings in N. Africa and the Middle-East. And, likewise, look at how swiftly the established trade unions/officials sought to contain and mitigate this revolt. We all hold the potential to undo “human nature”. It isn’t something set in stone; it is exactly what we make and accept it to be.

Then again, this is exactly what you said in the first place…I just took it and expanded upon it. :rolleyes:

Well, in any event, I hope this proves helpful.

[hatzel]

What's that old line, 'no one is better suited to maintain a communist economy than true individualists. In fact, a communist economy can only be maintained by true individualists'. We might not all agree with the statement in its exact wording (particularly if we're a bit averse to individualist anarchists), but it's an idea worth thinking of, investigating. Having people who act as individualists, in their own personal self-interest, which we might call greed, or selfishness, doesn't negate the viability of a communist society, or co-operation, once co-operation and mutual development and all that stuff is actually in the individual's self-interest :) Which, as we all know, it will be :thumbup1:

[ExUnoDisceOmnes]

4 levels of impressionable memory:
1. Genetic
2. Muscle
3. Intentional (purposeful thought)
4. Collective

Each level can be overpowered by the level above it. Thus, the idea that genetics shapes human nature has no basis in fact because that influence can easily be overcome by the most basic learning.

[Uncle Hank]

Human nature is a myth. As if it weren't made obvious enough by the points that are illustrated before this particular post in the thread, I would like to point out a few other problems.

'Human nature' attempts to do the impossible: to lump every aspect of humanity, in its totality, into this one collective strategy that everyone is born with and will always adhere to and never evolve beyond except a few isolated incidents, and any attempt to change it is an aberration of nature that will be quashed and dealt with; whether it be by nature, or other humans. As we know, nature is not a sentient being. (no shit) The earth will not open up and swallow men who attempt to alter the perception of truth surrounding human nature; so nature itself dealing with these 'deviations' is out of the picture. This allows the perpetrator of the argument to perpetuate their will, as an agent of nature; and essentially to play god.

Human nature is not, as many would have us believe, a self-fulfilling prophecy. It is simply an ideal that was implanted into every day life and mentality by the ruling class to take advantage of those not born or evolved yet into a class-conscious human; to infect all those with any potential of being a revolutionary while still in the proverbial cradle, and to make the myth itself self-perpetuating. Carriers of this, what I would like to call, axiom virus that causes otherwise reasonable people to spew this filthy, quasi-philosophical bile onto anyone within range, can infect others in any small amount of time; and every human has a certain level of susceptibility to this bullshit. The higher to the exposure before receiving the 'vaccination' against this that is class consciousness, the more likelihood there is an individual may succumb to it. In a manner of speaking it is a preemptive strike against the proletariat; to weaken the base of any given revolution by taking away support that would otherwise lie with the proletariat is the fundamental reason for the existence of the human nature argument. If not for the delusion some posses about humans being born with an economic or sociopolitical perception of the world or nature to begin with, the lies and myths of the bourgeoisie would be much easier to debunk in the first place.

But alas, it is not so.

[L.A.P.]

The only thing we know about human nature is that it isn't concrete. Human naturally adapt to their material conditions. Also, if they happen to use Darwinian theory against you say this; survival of the fittest only applied when it was species fighting other species, not fighting within a species. Part of the reason why humans survived evolution is because we are social and cooperative with each other by nature as with all mammals, which is why mammals are the dominant group of animals.

[Black Sheep]

The only thing we know about human nature is that it isn't concrete. Human naturally adapt to their material conditions. Also, if they happen to use Darwinian theory against you say this; survival of the fittest only applied when it was species fighting other species, not fighting within a species. Part of the reason why humans survived evolution is because we are social and cooperative with each other by nature as with all mammals, which is why mammals are the dominant group of animals.

This is plain wrong, and negates speciation process.Natural selection acting upon a species, can lead to specific groups within that, to change so much, that reproduction with members in and out of a certain group can be impossible, leading to a new species.
Also evolution doesn't/didin't "stop", so to say that we survived evolution is meaningless.

[Black Sheep]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBOfzQDzf9g

Here's the video.(It's unlisted, viewable only by link)

Anything to correct/add?

[Die Rote Fahne]

I've said it before; greed is not human nature, it's a result of the survival instinct in capitalist society.

[L.A.P.]

What's up with the song?

[Black Sheep]

It's vermillion part 2 by slipknot

[Broletariat]

In the description it says "ww.revleft.com" You're missing a "w"

A few criticisms that I'll update as I think of them

If its entirely in text why make a video at all? Why not just type an essay save it and copy-paste it for later?

There's weird gaps in the text, punctuation is spotty and some of the bigger sentences should be kept all in one piece for ease of reading.

[Putzpie]

Great video, but I have a recommendation I'd like to make. Change the song to something without lyrics so as to not distract the viewer from reading. Also because the song sucks in my opinion, but that's besides the point >_>. Personally I have Bob James - Nautilus playing in the background and it's pretty tits.

[L.A.P.]

It's vermillion part 2 by slipknot

I know that, I love that song but I just didn't understand why you made it the background song.

[Black Sheep]

^
Do you have an alternative recommendation?

[L.A.P.]

^
Do you have an alternative recommendation?

No song at all.:unsure:

[Uncle Hank]

No song at all.:unsure:
Because, YouTube users are universally known for their patience and long attention spans! So when it comes to reading plain text on a screen with no audio, they will be just as if not more likely to read it without any accompaniment as opposed to the video with, right? :lol:

[L.A.P.]

Because, YouTube users are universally known for their patience and long attention spans! So when it comes to reading plain text on a screen with no audio, they will be just as if not more likely to read it without any accompaniment as opposed to the video with, right? :lol:

Well I honestly thought he was going to speak on the video but since it is text...

[Robocommie]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/nov/20/human-nature-politics-left-right

TLDR version:
-A lot of people think that humans are naturally greedy, selfish or lazy and that's why we can't have nice things.

-Except ideas about human nature are always associated with political ideologies or philosophies; this idea of humanity as naturally greedy and selfish arose from classical liberalism. (See: Thomas Hobbes' Leviathan)

-It's absolutely incorrect to assume that people have always seen human nature the same way. This view is a product of our times.

-Marx presents an alternative view; humanity is inherently productive. Human beings are builders, makers, creators. We adapt our surroundings to suit us better just like we adapt ourselves to fit our surroundings.

-We're also inherently social. We only really understand ourselves through interaction with other people.

-"What we think - including what we think about ourselves - is determined by what we do. And what we do is always done socially and collectively."

-"Species Being" Our nature can only be understood in social terms, because what we are is a function of humanity as a whole.

Therefore:

-Ultimately our self-realization relies on one another; : 'It is only through being the means of your self-fulfilment that I can attain my own, and vice versa."

-"The political form of this ethic is known as socialism."