what is the best COMMUNIST party to jint in the UK?

[ColonelCossack]

'cos theres loads... i WOULD join the CPB-ML, but they disbanded in 2000. but theres still the CP, the CPGB, the CPGB-ML... it confuses me. So what's the best for a marxist-leninist?

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Nobody likes a Marxist-Leninist at a party - they're boring.
If you want to party, you're going to need to get over yr ideological baggage.
I mean, really, what gets people going? What rocks the block?
I have yet to find a members-only party that meets basic criteria.

[Q]

The "CPGB" (aka the Weekly Worker group) is leftover from the original CPGB (which dissolved in 1991 by the Euros). They don't see themselves as the CPGB, but have claimed the name so that the Stalinists wouldn't steal it and as a campaign towards a real communist party, consisting of the united far left on the basis of a Marxist programme. They emphasise open debate and educating the far left. Their paper, because it offers polemics towards other groups, is often dismissed as a "gossip rag" though by sectarians that don't value the worth of open debates.
- http://cpgb.org.uk/

The CPB is a "Marxist-Leninist" another rump that adheres to the British Road to Socialism (the infamous programme originally written by Stalin that argues there is a peaceful and "patriotic" national road to end capitalism and have a "socialism" dictated from above).
- http://communist-party.org.uk/

The CPGB-ML is a young formation of Maoists founded in 2004 when they left Arthur Scargill's Socialist Labour Party. It is lead by Harpal Brar, since 1979 editor of Lalkar and chairman of the Stalin Society and are known for dragging huge pictures of Stalin at demo's like it's 1949. I do not know much more about them.
- http://www.cpgbml.org/

Of course, there are quite a few more revolutionary left groupings, for a complete list see: http://eng.anarchopedia.org/List_of_Left-Wing_Parties_in_the_United_Kingdom

[Jack]

The "CPGB" (aka the Weekly Worker group) is leftover from the original CPGB (which dissolved in 1991 by the Euros). They don't see themselves as the CPGB, but have claimed the name so that the Stalinists wouldn't steal it and as a campaign towards a real communist party, consisting of the united far left on the basis of a Marxist programme. They emphasise open debate and educating the far left. Their paper, because it offers polemics towards other groups, is often dismissed as a "gossip rag" though by sectarians that don't value the worth of open debates.
- http://cpgb.org.uk/



Oh word, you mean they're a joke?

[Gorilla]

'cos theres loads... i WOULD join the CPB-ML, but they disbanded in 2000. but theres still the CP, the CPGB, the CPGB-ML... it confuses me. So what's the best for a marxist-leninist?

If you like the old CPB-ML's politics, CPGB (Weekly Worker) and CPB would both be too reformist for you.

The really hardcore ML parties in Britain are CPGB-ML, Revolutionary Communist Party of Britain (Marxist–Leninist) and New Communist Party of Britain. NCPB is a really weird group that both upholds the DPRK and urges a vote for Labour. RCPG-ML is very orthodox Hoxhaist. I don't think either one is very big or growing.

CPGB-ML is likely the biggest and fastest-growing of the bunch (which is to say, it is still quite small and growing slowly). They like Stalin a lot, also all presently-existing socialist states, Zimbabwean land reform, Belarus, etc. Most of their events seem to be lectures and party school type events which you can see on Youtube, sometimes attended by staff from the embassies of China, DPRK, El Salvador, etc.

[The Vegan Marxist]

The CPGB-ML is the most disciplined Communist organization in Britain in my opinion. Gorilla above me pretty much was on point in what they represent and their activities. They give out great lectures, especially by that of Harpal Brar.

[Geiseric]

Is the SWP still around in UK?

[The Vegan Marxist]

Is the SWP still around in UK?

Online wise, yes: http://www.swp.org.uk/

Offline, I'm not sure.

[Kassad]

Online wise, yes: http://www.swp.org.uk/

Offline, I'm not sure.

Aren't they the largest socialist group in the United Kingdom? They claim to have over 5,000 members.

[Q]

Aren't they the largest socialist group in the United Kingdom? They claim to have over 5,000 members.

Yes they are. Whether they have 5000 members is open for debate as their definition of a member is anyone who has said of being interested in joining and any non-dues paying for up to two years. (literally: “At present there are 5,800 registered members of the SWP. A registered member is a comrade who states that they wish to be a member of the organisation. Anyone who fails to pay subs or does not make contact to indicate they wish to continue to be a member after two years is removed from our registered members list and placed on our unregistered list of members.” - Pre-conference Bulletin No1 (http://www.cpgb.org.uk/ref_files/Preconf%20Bulletin%201%20Oct09.pdf), October 2009, page 32, third column about half way).

[mosfeld]

The CPGB-ML has lots of good cadre and is the UK equivalent of the PSL, with a more hardline "Stalinist" slant to them. I disagree with a lot of what the CPGB-ML advocates and claims, such as the claim that China is still socialist, but they're still one of the better parties in the UK.

[flobdob]

The CPGB-ML has lots of good cadre and is the UK equivalent of the PSL, with a more hardline "Stalinist" slant to them. I disagree with a lot of what the CPGB-ML advocates and claims, such as the claim that China is still socialist, but they're still one of the better parties in the UK.

More accurately speaking, in the UK the RCG (http://www.revleft.com/vb/www.revolutionarycommunist.org) are closer to the PSL and WWP politically, and the CPGB-ML are closer to FRSO.

Of the afforementioned parties the CPB, CPGB and NCPB call for a vote for Labour, the RCG and CPGB-ML do not. Usually the most important point to take into account!

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

The SWP are the largest, but more importantly, the most active and visible party in the UK by far. They have quite a broad ideological base, and operate a strict democratic centralist line, which can make their comrades quite difficult to work with at times, though often their cadre are very committed, determined and hard working.

Aside from CPGB, any other left parties in the UK - CPB, CPBG-ML, RCP - you'll just spend your days wishing you weren't in a dying organisation of 50 or 100 people, who have no visibility amongst the left, let alone the working class and public as a whole.

SWP, or CPGB if you must.

[Q]

They have quite a broad ideological base, and operate a strict democratic centralist line, which can make their comrades quite difficult to work with at times

The SWP is most certainly not democratic centralist (http://www.revleft.com/vb/blog.php?b=1464). Bureaucratic centralist would be a better fitting description.

[Gorilla]

SWP, or CPGB if you must.

Those are odd suggestions to make to a person who admires the former CPB-ML.

[Raightning]

Although this isn't what the OP is looking for (as a Trotskyist and somewhat electoralist group), this thread is probably going to be read at one point or another by other people with the same sort of question but very different political positions, and in a discussion of British left parties you can't really leave out the British wing of the CWI (Socialist Party of England and Wales (http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/main/Home)), given that along with the SWP they're by a fairly substantial margin the biggest group on the British far-left.

I only have a vague familiarity with their political line, honestly, but there's quite a few members on RevLeft so one of them will probably be able to go into more deal. I have to say, though, that while I don't agree with their general political bent per se (although in fact most members I know don't either; it's not ideologically rigid and there's everything from reformist socialists to Maoists in their ranks), they're probably one of the most effective groups in certain areas simply because of their level of membership and their links with the trade unions etc (whether that's for the better or the worse, of course, is debatable).

But for what the OP wants, they're definitely not suitable, and I think the CPGB-ML would be your best shot.

[human strike]

This is going to sound like a gross generalisation, but I promise you it's true; they're all shit.


Is the SWP still around in UK?

lol'd

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

The SWP is most certainly not democratic centralist (http://www.revleft.com/vb/blog.php?b=1464). Bureaucratic centralist would be a better fitting description.

Interesting link. I particularly respect the distinction drawn between Formal Democracy and Dialectic Democracy. I had not thought about it that way before.

However, be that as it may, it could perhaps be said that the SWP is still generally democratic centralist, perhaps with a deformity. To me, the culture of the organisation is still that of a democratic centralist one. To what extent it succeeds in adhering to the principle in practice is perhaps open to debate, so you're correct in that respect comrade.

[robbo203]

Of course, there are quite a few more revolutionary left groupings, for a complete list see: http://eng.anarchopedia.org/List_of_Left-Wing_Parties_in_the_United_Kingdom


The SPGB (http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/) is undoubtedly the best of the bunch as far as political parties are concerned but I have soft touch for the Anarchist Federation and Class War too

[Lyev]

The CPGB-ML is the most disciplined Communist organization in Britain in my opinion. Gorilla above me pretty much was on point in what they represent and their activities. They give out great lectures, especially by that of Harpal Brar.U mad bro? You live in the states anyway, don't you?
OP -- I'm reluctant to condemn other left groups - 'they're crazy!' or 'totally out of touch!' or 'insignificant sect' etc. etc. - because I think to an extent we are all in the same boat.

The SWP, the Socialist Party of England and Wales, the Socialist Labour Party, are probably amongst some the biggest groups in the UK. But size is only one factor and has varying importance for communist to communist.

There is also the CPGB-PCC, as people have mentioned, which should be alright for you seeing as they're actively mostly in London. There's also the Socialist Equality Party , linked to the folks who run wsws.com; the Spartacist League who are notorious for their harsh criticisms of other leftists; Socialist Appeal, who are part of the IMT which is a split from the CWI.

Oh yeah, there's also Permanent Revolution which is a smallish group of Trotskyists (split from the SWP) who maintain a good website with news & analysis. And there's also the Worker's Revolutionary Party, who were actively mainly in the 70s, but are smaller nowadays. And the Alliance for Worker's Liberty who are not as small as the WRP, Spartacists, SEP or IMT, but not quite as big as the SEP, SPEW, or SWP.

More generally, the ICC (World Revolution) and ICT (Communist Worker's Organisation) have a British section, whilst The Commune, anti-state Marxists (not sure of their exact ideological stripe), are also active. Some of these organisations though view 'recruitment' in different ways as a reflection of their basic ideology and programme.

Edit: there's also a Marxist-Humanist group that is around mostly in London. Edit again: Oh gee, I didn't realise that you said 'Marxist-Leninist' -- I'll keep the above reply here anyway because other folks might find it useful or whatever

[The Idler]

'cos theres loads... i WOULD join the CPB-ML, but they disbanded in 2000. but theres still the CP, the CPGB, the CPGB-ML... it confuses me. So what's the best for a marxist-leninist?
Wait what, the CPB-ML disbanded in 2000? Someone better tell the official website (http://www.workers.org.uk/) which has been producing monthly journals until as recently as March 2011.

[Die Neue Zeit]

'cos theres loads... i WOULD join the CPB-ML, but they disbanded in 2000. but theres still the CP, the CPGB, the CPGB-ML... it confuses me. So what's the best for a marxist-leninist?

As others have said about, try the CPGB (CPGB-PCC). I'll also recommend the Independent Working Class Association, though at the present time they're averse to national politics.

[h0m0revolutionary]

Aside from CPGB, any other left parties in the UK - CPB, CPBG-ML, RCP - you'll just spend your days wishing you weren't in a dying organisation of 50 or 100 people, who have no visibility amongst the left, let alone the working class and public as a whole.

SWP, or CPGB if you must.

You realise CPGB (PCC) has approximately 25 members right?


As others have said about, try the CPGB (CPGB-PCC). I'll also recommend the Independent Working Class Association, though at the present time they're averse to national politics.

He asked what party was best for a Marxist-Leninist. CPGB (PCC) came out of the the Euro Communist movement within the old CPGB. As you know.

[robbo203]

You realise CPGB (PCC) has approximately 25 members right?
.


When it comes down to it, I suspect the total number of Leftist activists in the UK would probably not exceed the average number of attendees at a third division football game. Thats says something dunnit? No one is in a position to scoff at anyone else on grounds of size. Which is not a bad thing because it forces one to focus attention on the inherent plausibility - or otherwise - of the arguments being presented. And that is where the "impossibilist" strand of revolutionary socialism (google it) wins the day hands down ;)

[Q]

You realise CPGB (PCC) has approximately 25 members right?
No. My running guess is standing at around three or four times that number (not counting Communist Students and fellow travelers, which would more or less double it and I'm unaware of their impact with HOPI), which is still small of course. Not that their main (or for that matter secondary or tertiary) aim is to recruit, they focus on "going through" the existing far left. From the current issue (http://www.cpgb.org.uk/article.php?article_id=1004337) of the Weekly Worker:


CPGB

Our organisation remains very small and we should not expect any dramatic change in that respect in the short term. That despite the period and the upturn in class struggles. Hence we need to guard against impatience, frustration and childish leftism, as well as reformism and conformist class-collaboration. Inevitable amongst those with a low level of theory and little understanding of Marxism. At all times we need a due sense of proportion.

Nevertheless, what our organisation does and says carries a weight far beyond its numbers. The Weekly Worker - not least through its web presence - is our main weapon and is in terms of its frequency, presentation, content and impact almost a weekly miracle.

Only four organisations have proved capable of producing a real - not a silly-print - weekly paper: SWP, SPEW, AWL (just recently) … and the CPGB.

In 2011 our online presence will be considerably boosted by a new, much improved website. This will obviously require constant attention. Besides a loose team of workers that means an online editor. Needless to say, the vast bulk of web content will continue to be generated by the Weekly Worker … and thus politically guided, chosen, cut, expanded and introduced by its editorial staff.

The attraction/strength of the Weekly Worker has widely been seen in reporting/analysing the politics of the left. That must be continued and where possible deepened. Our strategy is based on going through the existing left, not forgetting the Labour and trade union left. That requires openness and militant polemics.

We practise what we preach. In our tradition being open about differences is both a right and a duty. Those in our ranks who say they disagree with this or that aspect of our politics and strategy internally need to take that on board.

The Weekly Worker rightly looks far beyond mere reportage. The paper is informed by/advocates the most advanced programme on the left and champions/presents the most advanced theory. Obviously we shall be publishing the new Draft programme of the CPGB in 2011. That needs promoting and, to the extent we can, popularised.

We must continue to strive to develop theory and, alongside that, cultivate a deep sense of history. Obviously that takes time and effort, and that needs to be appreciated. In 2011 we shall publish second, expanded editions of Fantastic reality and Revolutionary strategy.

Besides theory being generated internally - ie, in the ranks of the CPGB’s membership - the paper and its staff have quite rightly cultivated relations of friendship, cooperation and comradeship with those who might be called fellow-travellers or allies. It is of some considerable political importance that we publish articles by the likes of Chris Gray, Dave Douglass, Gerry Downing and Tony Greenstein. Though they are only individuals, their contributions - valuable in and of themselves - are also a pointer to the kind of mass CPGB we aspire to.

We have certainly gathered around the paper some of the best leftwing intellectuals: eg, Hillel Ticktin, Lars T Lih, Moshé Machover and Chris Knight. In their respective fields they are outstanding thinkers and we should continue to cherish their involvement with our project. Their contributions certainly add to the high quality of our weekly paper and annual school, the Communist University.

As aside, I don't think it is actually possible for a group of 25 to maintain a weekly paper publication for decades. It would be too costly if anything.


He asked what party was best for a Marxist-Leninist. CPGB (PCC) came out of the the Euro Communist movement within the old CPGB. As you know.
Yes, they came out ... in opposition against it. In the book Which Road? (third edition, 1991) - a programmatic critique against the CPGB and CPB BRS, the "Manifesto for a new times" by the Euro's and the Militant's What we stand for - Jack Conrad very explicitly refers to the The Leninist faction to be "Marxist-Leninist" because the Euro's moved away from it.

These days they no longer refer to themselves as "Marxist-Leninist", but more generally as "Marxist partisans", due to their focus on fighting for a united left based on a Marxist programme of radical democracy that aims to form the class as a class for itself.

[Devrim]

No. My running guess is standing at around three or four times that number

The numbers I heard were about 35-40. Your guess seems wildly high to me. I think Robbo has generally the right line on this though.


Yes, they came out ... in opposition against it. In the book Which Road? (third edition, 1991) - a programmatic critique against the CPGB and CPB BRS, the "Manifesto for a new times" by the Euro's and the Militant's What we stand for - Jack Conrad very explicitly refers to the The Leninist faction to be "Marxist-Leninist" because the Euro's moved away from it.

Their roots were as you say never in Euro-communism, but were in fact in Stalinism, though they seemed to have moved a long way. The people who formed the Leninist were ex-members of the NCP, who had joined TKP, and were involved in its 'Workers Voice' faction.

Devrim

[Android]

he numbers I heard were about 35-40. Your guess seems wildly high to me. I think Robbo has generally the right line on this though.

That would be my estimate as well, with even 40 being a bit on the high side in my opinion.


Their roots were as you say never in Euro-communism, but were in fact in Stalinism, though they seemed to have moved a long way. The people who formed the Leninist were ex-members of the NCP, who had joined TKP, and were involved in its 'Workers Voice' faction.

Correct, that is my understanding as well.

[TC]

I think the best ideologically is the Revolutionary Communist Group which, while not officially marcyite, takes basically the same ideological and political positions as the PSL and WWP. They are small though (must be less than 50 people), though it is hard to compare since, like the PSL/WWP, they are a dedicated cadre organization with a larger supporters group (Fight Racism Fight Imperialism).

[Gorilla]

Only four organisations have proved capable of producing a real - not a silly-print - weekly paper: SWP, SPEW, AWL (just recently) … and the CPGB.

Wow, a certain foreign embassy must have opened up the funding spigots.

What's silly-print?

[IndependentCitizen]

Aren't they the largest socialist group in the United Kingdom? They claim to have over 5,000 members.

Claimed, yes. If it's true, then I've not been able to see them out in force. In Brighton, they seem to have lost a few comrades, which I'm baffled about because they were a close knit group. And you always saw SWP flags out in numbers a few years ago, but it appears to have declined in recent years. They probably are the biggest Trotskyist organisation in Britain, but I don't think they have 5,000 members.

CPGB-ML? They support Gaddafi, and call Trots fascist without backing up their reason why as us Trotskyists are apparently fascist....Crazy party...

[flobdob]

I think the best ideologically is the Revolutionary Communist Group which, while not officially marcyite, takes basically the same ideological and political positions as the PSL and WWP. They are small though (must be less than 50 people), though it is hard to compare since, like the PSL/WWP, they are a dedicated cadre organization with a larger supporters group (Fight Racism Fight Imperialism).

While I agree with the general thrust of this, 50 members is a fair bit of an understatement comrade!

[Spawn of Stalin]

As far as I am aware the RCG is about the same size, possibly even bigger than CPBG-ML. CPGB-ML has been in three figure territory for about a year and a half now, past few months or so they have been growing by at least one or two members a week. I still get CC bulletins in the post, there's always more than five new members mentioned by name. Stalin Society has 500+ members, over half of which are in the UK, most of whom are close to the party.

Don't let the sizes of the RCG or CPGB-ML put you off. The RCG are really strong in places like Manchester, CPGB-ML are getting their game on and have been for a good half a year now, people are just too busy taking the piss out of their Stalinism to realise it.

CPGB has a popular paper but don't really do anything, and considering how long they have been around (going on thirty years?) they should really be as active as CWI or one of the other larger groups by now. I think this is due to a lack of willingness to recruit. They are basically a debating society, nothing wrong with that as long as you admit it.

If you fall in line with either in terms of ideology, RCG and CPGB-ML are both really good organisations to join right now.