"They [Lybian Soldiers] Defecated & Urinated on Me & Tied Me Up." [Archive]

View Full Version : "They [Lybian Soldiers] Defecated & Urinated on Me & Tied Me Up."

Rakhmetov

26th March 2011, 15:56

Gaddafi and his followers are brutal & corrupt. Any vestiges they had of anti-imperialism and revolutionary tendencies died decades ago.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110326/ap_on_re_af/af_libya_hotel_brawl

Robespierre Richard

26th March 2011, 16:03

I wonder, is this another "Iraqis are killing babies"-type story?

Rakhmetov

26th March 2011, 16:08

You thinks so?? Incubator fabrications??? I forgot about that ... :confused:

PhoenixAsh

26th March 2011, 16:09

I am sorry....were you under the impression that he still was?

Now...the story of the woman is horrible, truely horrible.

What happened at the converance is something that would happen in ANY country. No country will allow a carefully orchestrated event to be tarnished by people of any gender actually trying to get attention for their situation and especially not if it involves rape.

Now the rape itself is endemic in societies all over the world. I have read reports about sexual abuse and rape in the prison system in the US. Rapes in the army of the US...and I am very sure...in many, many more armies over the world...are common place or at the very best a regular occurance. Rapes occured in the Soviet army, and rapes occur in the Chinese army.

Every army in the world is essentially playing into the sense of entitlemment of the soldiers. Its the right of conquest myth that is an essential part of military doctrine.

EVERYBODY is corrupt in the situation of Libya.

Os Cangaceiros

26th March 2011, 16:12

That's a horrible story...not the woman's account (although that's also horrible), but just the entire exchange detailed in that report.

erupt

26th March 2011, 16:20

Give the poor girl a machete or a little axe and let her go to town on those fuckers who did that. I highly, highly doubt that she's not telling the truth. My heart weeps for that woman.

Libya may become one of those states that the Western powers call "stateless", like Somalia or Yemen. I'm almost positive "stateless" is the term used.

Sinister Cultural Marxist

26th March 2011, 17:35

Gaddafi's Libya, of course, kept it classy by blaming the victim.

The government spokesman said the woman was under investigation.
"The investigators did phone me and told me the lady is drunk and that she seems to be suffering mentally," Ibrahim said. "They are checking on her health condition, her mental condition, whether she was really abused or if these were fantasies."
Leftists who continue to support this bullshit government are implicitly supporting a sexist regime.

Also, the depth of the Libyan police state should be clear for all posters to see, in case there were any lingering questions about the tyrannical nature of this government. They won't let the press talk to the victim of an egregious crime, and they abuse her when she tries to tell her story. Of course, now she has probably been arrested and is facing an uncertain fate. Perhaps she will come out "recanting" her story after some time in one of the dungeons of the green "revolution".

PhoenixAsh

26th March 2011, 17:53

Are you actually arguing that this behaviour surprises you or is somehow limited to Libya? THIS is actually endemic for every country when somebody accuses government, government officials, government employees for crimes. That has always been the leading policy of any government...and especially in the case of women who claim sexual assault and abuse. Women have a hard time as it is with rape charges anywhere...and especially when the government is somehow involved they will always...always blame the victim...unless it suits their needs and propaganda not to do so.

THe treatment of this woman is NOT a surprise. Its is however NOT something exlusive to Libya or its regime. Any country would have done this...iommagine a woman running into a US offical press converance and accuse the military of raping her. She would be downed by NSA and security forces in no time...and probably dragged to some mental institution or arrested for terorism or intent to kill a government official. Or do you think the government official would step aside and give her a podium???

Robespierre Richard

26th March 2011, 17:56

You thinks so?? Incubator fabrications??? I forgot about that ... :confused:

I don't know, just the way this is spun is really weird. It could very well be true, but the media coverage is really confusing.

Sinister Cultural Marxist

26th March 2011, 18:09

hs20/20-she didn't burst in to a press conference, she went in the lobby where the press was eating breakfast. And she was turned on as a "traitor" and beaten by government minders. Last I checked, it was legal in America and Europe to tell journalists that the cops or police raped you without getting beaten up and arrested by government minders (for one thing, the press is allowed to go around without the interior ministry checking every civilian who talks to the press).

And it's usually the defense lawyer who blames the victim, not some random government representative while the woman gets dragged away to some nameless prison somewhere. The conditions are totally different. Womens rights suck in America and europe, but for their own reasons. For one, the women I know feel safe to drive between two cities without getting mobbed and gang raped by soldiers at a checkpoint for being from the wrong part of the country.

Os Cangaceiros

26th March 2011, 19:38

Palestine

26th March 2011, 21:05

The Libyan spokesperson if a liar a fucking liar, and why does the government abduct her? On what crime? This is for all the doubters why Gaddafi is a motherfucker and should be removed by all means.

erupt

26th March 2011, 22:59

This is for all the doubters why Gaddafi is a motherfucker and should be removed by all means.
Yeah, I agree. Talk about a state with concentrated wealth within the family and government.

Robespierre Richard

26th March 2011, 23:04

The Libyan spokesperson if a liar a fucking liar, and why does the government abduct her? On what crime? This is for all the doubters why Gaddafi is a motherfucker and should be removed by all means.

They're all motherfuckers.

erupt

26th March 2011, 23:09

They're all motherfuckers.
It's impossible for me to disagree.

Chimurenga.

27th March 2011, 00:33

"The prisoners and detainees were hauled out of dank cells that stank of urine and rot — the same cells that once housed some of the dissidents now aligned with the rebel movement, known as the Feb. 17 Revolution.

But when a rowdy mass of photographers and reporters rushed the prisoners and began snapping photos and shouting questions, the carefully staged event collapsed in chaos. Soon opposition officials were hauling out prisoners for interviews and photos, all the while shouting down the detainees when they proclaimed their innocence.

One young man from Ghana (http://www.latimes.com/topic/intl/ghana-PLGEO00000111.topic) bolted from the prisoners queue. He shouted in English at an American reporter: "I'm not a soldier! I work for a construction company in Benghazi! They took me from my house … "

A guard shoved the prisoner back toward the cells.

"Go back inside!" he ordered.

The guard turned to the reporter and said: "He lies. He's a mercenary."

One of the accused shown to journalists was Alfusainey Kambi, 53, a disheveled Gambian wearing a bloodstained sport shirt and military fatigue trousers. He said he had been dragged from his home and beaten by three armed men who he said also raped his wife. A dirty bandage covered a wound on his forehead.

Khaled Ben Ali, a volunteer with the opposition council, berated Kambi and accused him of lying. Ali said Kambi hit his head on a wall while trying to escape.

He commanded the prisoner to comment on his treatment in the detention center.

Kambi paused and considered his answer. Finally, he glanced warily up at Ali and spoke.

"Nobody beat me here," he said in a faint, weary tone. "I have no problems here."

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-libya-prisoners-20110324,0,5389027,full.story

PhoenixAsh

27th March 2011, 00:40

hs20/20-she didn't burst in to a press conference, she went in the lobby where the press was eating breakfast. And she was turned on as a "traitor" and beaten by government minders.

you are correct...I misunderstood that. thanx for the correction.

Last I checked, it was legal in America and Europe to tell journalists that the cops or police raped you without getting beaten up and arrested by government minders (for one thing, the press is allowed to go around without the interior ministry checking every civilian who talks to the press).

fair enough...though you must admit we are not in a situation of civil war were propaganda is waged by both sides to sway opinion.

And it's usually the defense lawyer who blames the victim, not some random government representative while the woman gets dragged away to some nameless prison somewhere.

ah...for example...rapes in the military are being repressed by top brass and officers threatening victims. There are a lot of stories about that.

The conditions are totally different. Womens rights suck in America and europe, but for their own reasons. For one, the women I know feel safe to drive between two cities without getting mobbed and gang raped by soldiers at a checkpoint for being from the wrong part of the country.

Three weeks ago neither did the women of libya. This is actually the first case we hear about since the start of the civil war.

heftieleftie

27th March 2011, 00:40

video (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Sky-News-Sees-A-Woman-Bundled-Away-By-Minders-From-Tripoli-Hotel-After-Allegedly-Being-Raped/Article/201103415960663?lpos=World_News_First_World_News_A rticle_Teaser_Region_0)

yup. pretty fucked up.

So, were the waitresses government agents too? Does anyone stop to ask themselves why Gadaffi's supposed henchmen were right there on the scene to brandish a butterknife at this woman in front of a foreign news channel's cameras...yet they weren't competent enough to confiscate said news channel's videotape? It seemed to me like they had plenty of time to do so, the camera rolls for quite a while. I know that when the LAPD want something hidden from the public view, they go for the videotape, not go for the innocent person right IN FRONT OF the videotape. Are Libyans too stupid to understand the same tactics that dumb American beat cops use?

The Libyan spokesperson if a liar a fucking liar, and why does the government abduct her? On what crime? This is for all the doubters why Gaddafi is a motherfucker and should be removed by all means.

whereas the Rupert Murdoch-owned sky news would never lie. :rolleyes:

"communists" who read the communist manifesto first, and never get around to reading Manufacturing Consent (or at least picking up its ideas from somewhere else), are just plain dangerous.

By the way, Felipe Calderon is also a motherfucker who needs to be bombed post-haste, by your "logic". Mexican security forces have been implicated in numerous rapes.

You truly are an example of Murdoch's dream viewer.

Jose Gracchus

27th March 2011, 01:09

@Proletarianrevolution:

Good article.

This is disgraceful. People need to recognize an inter-bourgeois, tribal sheik-loyalty-based civil war when they see one. I wish the pan-national, Libyan working class was organized and conscious enough to throw both clubs of vile sheiks, rapists, and torturers off their backs.

Sinister Cultural Marxist

27th March 2011, 01:50

ah...for example...rapes in the military are being repressed by top brass and officers threatening victims. There are a lot of stories about that.

True, and i dont mean to say otherwise. But I haven't heard of any cases of them being literally silenced by force when making those accusations and dragged away in a speeding car to some unknown destination. I also haven't heard of soldiers beating journalists who try to hear the story.

Three weeks ago neither did the women of libya. This is actually the first case we hear about since the start of the civil war.Also true, but then again Libya is a police state and seems to have an exceedingly tight control over what makes it out into the public. This is one of the first times the press has really had a lot of extensive access to Libyan society.

InformCandidate-how do you expect the working class to organize when Gaddafi's henchmen treat people who speak poorly of the government in such a manner? Also, many of the rebels are sheikhs, tribal leaders and defectors from Gaddafi's government who are probably no better than the strong man in tripoli, but they are not the only rebels. On the other hand, Gaddafi's government maintains a strong, cohesive, despotic ideology (which is, roughly, "be loyal to the great leader") which it has imposed on the country via its police state. Any good socialist revolutionary should be able to partake in debates within the opposition movement to move it in a social direction, instead of (wrongly) accusing the rebels of all being pro-bourgeois or pro-aristocratic monarchists.

Raubleaux

27th March 2011, 04:25

Shiva, the government is doing a criminal investigation and they admitted that after looking into it the woman was raped and due process is being followed.

Not that it matters -- the media will circulate this story as if the woman was gang raped and then disappeared by the government when she tried to speak out about it. Yet another horror story to justify the Western intervention.

Sinister Cultural Marxist

27th March 2011, 08:11

#FF0000

27th March 2011, 08:24

lol people defending gadaffi

Raubleaux

27th March 2011, 09:12

They beat her and the journalists up and carried her away in a car merely for making accusations to the press! It sounds more like they were embarrassed by the media coverage of it and after the fact decided to hold the people accountable. That doesn't change the fact that Gaddafi's despotic interior ministry beat her up and drove her away merely for trying to make her accusations public.

Did you watch the video? The woman was understandably hysterical, then she got accosted by someone who thought she was lying and putting on a scene for the journalists, a general fracas resulted. It is kind of normal for authorities to step in and break up that sort of thing..

I hope the woman's attackers are brought to justice. Actually, I'm pretty sure they will.

I swear the next time someone falls down a flight of stairs in Tripoli some people will say its because Gaddafi personally designed one of the steps to be accident prone to kill innocent people.

Palestine

27th March 2011, 11:21

PhoenixAsh

27th March 2011, 12:55

THere have been numerous rumours of African Migrant workers detained and raped by the rebels. Either in the cities or at the border while they are trying to flee.

The press did not cover them.....I wonder why.

There are no news stories about theses rapes, and the covarage of the treatment of migrant workers has been completely undersold.

The press coverage is rife with propaganda and there is ample evidence of both sides committing horrible crimes against civilians, women and minorities.

Yet everybody jumps on this story.

Palestine

27th March 2011, 12:59

Who told you that? the tooth fairy??

Sinister Cultural Marxist

27th March 2011, 16:27

Did you watch the video? The woman was understandably hysterical, then she got accosted by someone who thought she was lying and putting on a scene for the journalists, a general fracas resulted. It is kind of normal for authorities to step in and break up that sort of thing..

I hope the woman's attackers are brought to justice. Actually, I'm pretty sure they will.

I swear the next time someone falls down a flight of stairs in Tripoli some people will say its because Gaddafi personally designed one of the steps to be accident prone to kill innocent people.
I don't know about you and your version of women's rights, but when a distressed and possibly injured woman comes in saying she was raped, I call an ambulance and help her. I don't accuse her of being a liar or a drunk and hit her and drag her off in an unmarked civilian car.

hs20/20-there are some extreme stories of abuse against migrant workers (havent heard of rape though would be nice to provide a little evidence of that charge), but it is categorically different to have a sovereign government acting like they did. Any old lumpen can pick up a Kalashnikov and call themselves a rebel, but you expect the employees of a sovereign government to behave a little better than that.

PhoenixAsh

27th March 2011, 18:48

hs20/20-there are some extreme stories of abuse against migrant workers (havent heard of rape though would be nice to provide a little evidence of that charge), but it is categorically different to have a sovereign government acting like they did. Any old lumpen can pick up a Kalashnikov and call themselves a rebel, but you expect the employees of a sovereign government to behave a little better than that.

Yes...I do expect that from a government official in normal circumstances. And I centrainly do not condone it in any circumstance.

These are not normal circumstances and the reality of the matter is that Libya's current government is facing incredible amounts of bias in the international media....and that should not be discounted in the analysis of these events. Nor is the government exactly souvereign at the moment or in full control. Its facing rebellion aided by superior military forces and is rapidly disintegrating.

Now...before the riots and rebellion the situation in Libya towards womens rights was actually quite good in comparisson to other African and ME countries.

The balance of the story is lost within the propaganda and the emotion.

Palestine

27th March 2011, 19:17

Conclusion: If a leader is a socialist we support him even if he is the biggest motherfucker on earth.

Sinister Cultural Marxist

27th March 2011, 19:55

hs 20/20; a "biased" media is no excuse to beat and arrest a woman who says she was raped and was trying to tell the press. Ever. Nor is civil unrest.

Chimurenga.

27th March 2011, 21:53

lol people defending western educated, racist, Al-Qaeda backed, Imperialist aligned rebels.

That's more like it.

#FF0000

28th March 2011, 20:12

That's more like it.

>>implying either side are "the good guys" and have anything to offer the working class

But like I say, fuck the workers as long as the guy who's butchering them reps anti-imperialism!

Right guys!?

Right?

Mindtoaster

28th March 2011, 20:12

The woman in question is now missing, despite state TV saying she was released

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2011-03-27/eman-al-obeidis-rape-accusations-against-gaddafis-regime/?cid=hp:mainpromo3#

LuÃs Henrique

29th March 2011, 00:08

So, were the waitresses government agents too?

Practical advice: under a dictatorship, never trust international hotels' staff. The possibility that they are actually secret police agents is considerable.

Luís Henrique

LuÃs Henrique

29th March 2011, 00:09

lol people defending gadaffi

Don't laugh. Cry instead.

Luís Henrique

Raubleaux

29th March 2011, 00:30

Now there is talk of systematic use of "rape as a method of warfare" because a doctor found condoms in the pocket of some dead soldiers (slam dunk evidence if I ever heard any).

It's going to be years before we ever are able to separate fact from fiction in this conflict.. there are hundreds of journalists in Libya now and they are anxiously reporting everything that the opposition to Gaddafi claims as a fact, whereas all the Gaddafi propaganda is dismissed out of hand (or not reported at all).

It is hard to trust anything. People are all just believing what they want to.

LuÃs Henrique

29th March 2011, 01:38

Now there is talk of systematic use of "rape as a method of warfare" because a doctor found condoms in the pocket of some dead soldiers (slam dunk evidence if I ever heard any).

I haven't read any of that.

Besides it something that armies do things like that - especially armies with low morale, bad command, and poor training - there is nothing to make me believe that the Libyan army is raping women in a systematic way.

And I find it difficult to understand why would anyone invent such stories. The Libyan army has been bombing Misrata - including hospitals and ambulances - for days. The same in Zintan. And it also did the same in Zawiya, which it unhappily was able to recapture. We don't know exactly what happens whence they recapture a city - the press hasn't been allowed into Zawiya, or only allowed under strict surveillance of what they call "government minders". Rumours are of kidnappings and prisons, and of home by home searches that terrorises the population. Bad enough as it is, even if there is not policy of systematic rape, or systematic rape without a policy.

It's going to be years before we ever are able to separate fact from fiction in this conflict.. there are hundreds of journalists in Libya now and they are anxiously reporting everything that the opposition to Gaddafi claims as a fact, whereas all the Gaddafi propaganda is dismissed out of hand (or not reported at all).

This is untrue. They have repeatedly reported the Gaddafyist claim that civilians have been killed in aerial attacks. They have also reported that they couldn't verify such information. Which is also what they say about a lot of rebel claims - unable to confirm. They have also reported Gaddafy's claim that the rebels are lead by Al Qaida.

It is hardly the press' fault if the government's claims stick out as false or simply ridiculous by themselves.

It is hard to trust anything. People are all just believing what they want to.

I believe what I have some real indication. I have seen footage of Misrata's hospital with obvious marks of heavy ammunition hits; so I believe it was hit by heavy ammonition. Locals say that Gaddafy's tanks entered the city and fired at the hospital - and this matches the images of the hospital. I have seen Gaddafy's war ware destroyed, apparently by overwhelming attacks that cannot be explained by AK 47 fire. It is reported that they were destroyed by French, British or American air attacks - and it seems to be what happened. I have seen stalled tanks in urban streets, with civilians waving the tricolour flag on top of them - apparently tanks destroyed by resistence within the cities.

I have seen a video of a young lady in despair, being kidnapped by undercover police. It seems to match the description given by press - she complained about wrongdoing from police or army, and was taken away by police.

I have seen corpses that according to the government are of civilians hit by aerial attacks, too. I don't doubt it in principle - even if extreme care was taken not to hit civilians, the nature of modern cities makes it almost impossible to avoid it. But I haven't seen any actual proof that they were civilians instead of military, or that they were hit by air attacks, instead of killed by Gaddafy's army itself. There are rumours that Gaddafy's troops carry dead people with them after the attacks, supposedly to do exactly this - show them as victims of air attacks. I can't know if this is true, so I don't believe it is necessarily true.

I have seen footage of rebels cheering after some local victories, and I have noticed that there were some Blacks among them, so I don't swallow the idea that the rebels are racist pogromists, though I don't doubt they may have harrassed, imprisoned, and even killed people who they believed were mercenaries on no better evidence than skin colour.

We should try to make sence of what we are shown and told, realising that there will be obvious bias from any narrative, while rejecting conspiracy theories unless very good evidence is shown. Obvious lies (the rebels are lead by Al Qaida, the rebels took Sirte with no resistance, there were no peaceful protests previous to brutal repression, Gaddafy is using people as human shields, a kamikaze pilot hit Gaddafy's compound in Tripoli) are usually obvious or become obvious in a few days or hours.

Ignoring actual, well documented facts (Gaddafy's government systematically deals with imperialist powers, sells oil to them, bribes their officials, invests in Western capitalist companies, started neoliberal reforms to make such deals easier, never was able to reduce Libyan dependence on oil, mounted a police State under the ostensive tale that it is a "stateless society ruled by popular comittees", kidnaps and murders oppositionists, forbids any political activity, gags the Libyan press, is a personal dictatorship though the dictator doesn't have a formal position within it, etc) is unwise, as is unwise to assume mere rumours as truths (the rebels are chasing and killing Black people for no reason, the rebels are monarchists, the rebels sold the country to the "West", Gaddafy has no actual Libyan soldiers and relies mostly on foreign mercenaries, etc) is equally unwise.

Luís Henrique

Sinister Cultural Marxist

29th March 2011, 04:06

Raubleaux

29th March 2011, 05:01

This may have happened more than once:

Shocking allegations of serious sexual abuse and execution from a town "liberated" from Gaddafi's henchmen. (http://english.aljazeera.net/video/africa/2011/03/201132845516144204.html)

This is exactly what I'm talking about... Men have condoms in their pockets (imagine that!) and therefore Qaddafi's supporters are organizing rapes.

Sinister Cultural Marxist

29th March 2011, 05:14

This is exactly what I'm talking about... Men have condoms in their pockets (imagine that!) and therefore Qaddafi's supporters are organizing rapes.

That wasn't the only thing they talked about in the video. Women alleged that gaddafi's men raped them, and almost 200 people "disappeared".

Also, don't you think it's a little strange that deployed soldiers would need condoms and viagra (and what kind of young soldier has ED anyhow)?

LuÃs Henrique

29th March 2011, 05:22

This is exactly what I'm talking about... Men have condoms in their pockets (imagine that!) and therefore Qaddafi's supporters are organizing rapes.

175 people have simply disappeared from Ajdabyah - and we are to discuss whether Gaddafy's troops rape their victims before killing them?

No idea about Gaddafy's supporters organising rapes. All evidence points to them organising bombing of cities, masacres of dissenters, mass imprisonments, torture and executions. I suppose this is acceptable?

Frankly...

Luís Henrique

khad

29th March 2011, 06:56

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/africa-mideast/in-a-rebel-prison-any-african-is-a-mercenary/article1960597/

During a recent visit to a prison in Benghazi where rebels are keeping suspected pro-Gadhafi fighters, Mr. Bouckaert said the majority were African migrant workers with documentation of their employment, mistakenly rounded up during hunts for mercenaries and pro-regime agents.

In one case, he said, an elderly man from Gambia told him that three young rebels broke into his house, raped his young wife, and beat him unconscious. He was jailed, with severe head injuries.

During a visit to the same prison on Monday, rebels told The Globe and Mail that the elderly man had been transferred to another facility.

Human rights groups have warned that such accusations are frequently wrong, endangering people with the wrong complexion. A video circulated among rebels showed the corpse of a dark-skinned man hanging from a meat hook, allegedly an African mercenary killed by angry locals.

The streets of rebel cities have become somewhat safer for people of sub-Saharan heritage since the chaotic early days of the rebellion, but observers say migrants can still get arrested or killed on the slightest pretext.

The only way to make the NATO intervention "just" is to also have them bomb the shit out rebels who commit crimes against humanity.

Ocean Seal

29th March 2011, 07:14

Wow this is the kind of thing which is just truly awful. There is no reasonable damn side on this Libyan War; I don't even know who's fighting at this point. What a messed up story.
Rebels, NATO, and Gaddafi
What a series of fucked up choices for who will lead Libya.

Sinister Cultural Marxist

29th March 2011, 20:37

8:52am

The story of Eman Al Obeidi (http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-29#update-20861) is fast becoming a rallying cry for Libya's women.
After Obeidi pled with journalists to tell her story of rape and abuse at the regime's hands, spokesman Moussa Ibrahim claimed Obeidi - a lawyer - was actually a prostitute. But it seems very few are buying it.
"We will never leave you alone, Eman, we will sacrifice our lives just for you and we're all, old and young, supporting you," said one woman at a protest.

8:08pm

Musa Ibrahim, a Libyan government spokesman, says that Iman al-Obeidi, a woman who stormed into a Tripoli hotel where foreign journalists were staying to accuse Libyan soldiers of raping her, has been accused of "defamation" by her alleged attackers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKowBBKRVps&feature=player_embedded

It's some seriously sick shit what's going on. If the rape wasn't bad enough.

black magick hustla

2nd April 2011, 23:38

this is fucking capitalist barbarism, no side is made of angels.

Threetune

2nd April 2011, 23:57