Freigeld

[hatzel]

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but I searched and couldn't find anything about it. Anyway, I'm enquiring as to whether anybody sees any worth in Gesell's Freigeld, or...that other system that I've forgotten the name of, but it seems to be just a modernised version of that, with everybody having a cash card with similar (artificial) demurrage costs, with it somehow diminishing over time, and everybody's card is specifically tied to that person. I guess they have to give a fingerprint or something to use the card, to ensure that nobody can just trade many between themselves, I dunno. That last one in particular struck me as quite similar to those labour vouchers all y'all MLs keep talking about, and I wonder if any of you feel either Gesell's or that-other-guy-I've-forgotten-the-name-of's system is remotely appealing. You know, labour vouchers that diminish in value over time or something like that...? :confused:

(Also, if you happen to know what system I'm talking about, please tell me, even if you say nothing else on this thread :lol:)

[Kotze]

In Germany, Freigeld has some currency (hurr). There's INWO (Initiative für Natürliche Wirtschaftsordnung, meaning something like "action group for natural economic order"), which talks about that (and land reform, which Gesell also advocated). There are also some people sympathic to it within Attac.

Among Freigeld supporters, I haven't heard much about specifically tying it to non-transferable accounts. However, there's quite an overlap between Freigeld supporters and supporters of a basic income guarantee, so maybe you got things mixed up a bit?

Silvio Gesell downplayed conflicts between workers and entrepreneurs in his writings, so he isn't very popular among Marxists (and he also made fun of Marx). I don't believe Gesell was a rigorous thinker, but he brought the non-neutrality of money into the conscience of many people (his Robinsonade (http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/%7Eroehrigw/gesell/robinsonade/english/)), which is a good thing.

[hatzel]

Among Freigeld supporters, I haven't heard much about specifically tying it to non-transferable accounts. However, there's quite an overlap between Freigeld supporters and supporters of a basic income guarantee, so maybe you got things mixed up a bit?

Yeah, I didn't mean it's necessarily linked. Just that there is some system advocated by somebody, where you work, and then you get your wage paid as credit onto some card, which you can then use to buy stuff (so, seemingly like electronic labour vouchers) but also the credit on your card automatically decreases at whatever rate...I feel there's more to the system than I remember here, it just struck me as being effectively Freigeld, but put onto credit cards or something :lol: But maybe that was a dream, and it was actually my calling to develop this crazy system...

[renzo_novatore]

Gustav Landauer was pretty friendly with Silvio Gesell. Silvio Gesell if you read him was more of a Proudhonian mutualist (not the tuckerite variety, but more closer to what Proudhon actually said). His natural economic order is littered with references to Proudhon. He was also apart of the Bavarian soviet republic along with Landauer.

I think his ideas are very interesting, although I don't entirely agree with them. But I do think that if some socialist economic system that would introduce labor vouchers instead of having communism, it would be very fruitful of them to try to have those labor vouchers disintegrate. I mean you look at worgl - they completely reversed the effects of the great depression by using gesell's disintegrating currency.

[hatzel]

Gustav Landauer was pretty friendly with Silvio Gesell.

That's actually the only reason I gave Gesell any attention...as Landauer kept mentioning him as some great economist, I thought h'd be worth a quick read :)


Silvio Gesell if you read him was more of a Proudhonian mutualist
I'm honestly starting to find Proudhon and Gesell to provide a much better economic analysis than Marx et al. at the moment :lol: I mean, I don't necessarily support their exact conclusions / solutions (and hardly think all that social Darwinism in Gesell's texts was really necessary), but I think it's an interesting area to look at. Or, to at least be aware of, working on the assumption that it might not be possible to just instantly abolish money in all walks of life, so it's a good idea to investigate the other suggested system, be they labour vouchers, Freigeld, whatever.


I mean you look at worgl - they completely reversed the effects of the great depression by using gesell's disintegrating currency.
I don't necessarily think we need to concentrate on Wörgl, there being plenty of examples of Gesellian currencies being put into circulation. I feel the issue, though, is that we can't yet critique his whole system of Freiwirtschaft, considering (as far as I'm aware), Wörgl and these other examples didn't really care all that much for Freiland, nor for Freihandel (or, at least not above and beyond what was already prevalent at the time), so we're left with an incomplete system. I would have been very happy if the Soviet Unions or Cubas or Venezuelas of this world (or at least some nominally socialist country) had tried to implement Freiwirtschaft in its entirety. It would give us a much better understanding of its feasibility, and would help us identify the weaknesses and develop the theory. At the moment, it seems the only development of Gesell's theory is that totally unrelated step backwards, Keynesian economics. And potentially that other system I've forgotten the name of...

[renzo_novatore]

I'm honestly starting to find Proudhon and Gesell to provide a much better economic analysis than Marx et al. at the moment I mean, I don't necessarily support their exact conclusions / solutions (and hardly think all that social Darwinism in Gesell's texts was really necessary), but I think it's an interesting area to look at. Or, to at least be aware of, working on the assumption that it might not be possible to just instantly abolish money in all walks of life, so it's a good idea to investigate the other suggested system, be they labour vouchers, Freigeld, whatever.


Gesell's social darwinism I think has to be understood in context - he was writing around the early part of the 20th century in germany and in that time all the germans were about trying to create a superior human being, thanks to nietzsche (although this i think is a horrible misinterpretation of nietzsche propagated by his sister).

And I agree, I don't like the idea of having markets in place, but perhaps there could be labor vouchers in a planned economy that would disintegrate.