Opinions on Thomas Paine?

[eric922]

I am rather interested in learning how the Left views the Founders of the U.S, in particular Thomas Paine. The reason I ask is because as i read some of Paine's writings he seems to have been very radical for his time and almost socialist on some of his views regarding private property, especially in Agrarian Justice. I sometimes wonder, if Paine had lived during the Russian Revolution, if he would have aided Lenin and Trotsky as he did the French. I guess I am wondering if from a Leftist view point, it is appropriate to look up these the man for the good they did and respect them were their ideas where progressive even though I realize they were not right in everything.

[Ocean Seal]

I am rather interested in learning how the Left views the Founders of the U.S, in particular Thomas Paine. The reason I ask is because as i read some of Paine's writings he seems to have been very radical for his time and almost socialist on some of his views regarding private property, especially in Agrarian Justice. I sometimes wonder, if Paine had lived during the Russian Revolution, if he would have aided Lenin and Trotsky as he did the French. I guess I am wondering if from a Leftist view point, it is appropriate to look up these the man for the good they did and respect them were their ideas where progressive even though I realize they were not right in everything.

I guess it all really depends on time period. Thomas Paine was a classical liberal, but he did live 2.5 centuries ago long before Marx. He supported the French Revolution because he was an anti-monarchist. And he was vehemently anti-monarchist, which is all I guess we can ask for. He also favored the idea of small farmers as did Thomas Jefferson, but the exception being that he was staunchly anti-slavery another progressive tendency. Anti-feudalists were progressive in his time, and I would add that he also favored a minimum income idea.
That last part gives him a Social Democrat platform as it is similar to the Citizens Income idea introduced by Lula in Brazil.

Its truly sad that today many would consider him too progressive. But, on our terms we only look at him as progressive a while back, and not progressive today.

[Tim Finnegan]

Tom Paine was the Big Man, sure enough! He may have been a liberal rather than a socialist, but his commitment to human emancipation was as sincere as anyone in history, his allegiance to the common man and not to either the rural gentry or the urban bourgeoisie, and his wits sharp enough that he had the early inklings of the "Idea of Communism" (if that's what you're into)- his rejection of unconditional property rights and his obligation of care of a citizen to his fellow citizens- rattling about his skull. And, hell, anyone who moves Dick Gaughan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qd2AHZ22SJ8) to write a song about him can't be that bad, eh? ;)

More broadly, I certainly don't think that socialists should forget the spiritual legacy of radical liberals, even if it isn't always supported by ideological or theoretical continuity. If our ultimate goal is human emancipation, then anyone who is genuinely invested in that same end is, when push comes to shove, a comrade of ours. There's a reason that Liebknecht stood against the wall with Burns on his lips, y'know?

[eric922]

That is my feeling. I feel that Marxism is the next and final stage in a long series of revolutionary attempts to emancipate man from various shackles of slavery and we should honor those who have fought to break those chains, while recognizing the mistakes they made.

[Geiseric]

The idea of socialism didn't exist back then, so I think it's fair to split the bourgouase from the progressives by their view on slavery, no? A free market was progressive in the 1700s, before people realised the capibility and profit that could be gained from monopolies, trusts etc. My theory is that capitalism would work if the government leveled the playing field between buisnesses and ensured fair practices, that's the final piece in Adam Smith's puzzle. However, since the go ernment is bourgoiuase itself that will never happen.

[JerryBiscoTrey]

I think he wanted to redistribute wealth.

Funny that Glenn Beck likes to dress up as him!

[L.A.P.]

We must remember that at this time capitalism meant to people what socialism means now and was a revolutionary step from feudalism. Thomas Paine was a Classical Liberal, but at that time being a Classical Liberal was very progressive and the closest thing to Leftist there was and not to mention that Thomas Paine was significantly more progressive than most of the other founding fathers of the United States. I believe there is a lot of truth to what Noam Chomsky says about Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine, if they were alive today they would be Libertarian Socialists.

[dwmjr1985]

I think he wanted to redistribute wealth.

Funny that Glenn Beck likes to dress up as him!

It is absolutely hilarious that not just Glenn Beck but many, many conservatives and Teabaggers try to use Thomas Paine as their poster child, yet to me it seems as though they don't want to really read his works. A lot of people don't want to do any research.

[Red Commissar]

It is absolutely hilarious that not just Glenn Beck but many, many conservatives and Teabaggers try to use Thomas Paine as their poster child, yet to me it seems as though they don't want to really read his works. A lot of people don't want to do any research.

There is actually a nice little blog on the internet by a guy who makes fun of the tea baggers and what not who appropriate arguments of the founding fathers to justify their own stances. It's worth a read:

http://laughingtompaine.wordpress.com/

[Blake's Baby]

There's supposed to be a little exchange of epigrams between Jefferson and Paine, that goes something like this:

Jefferson - wherever man is free, that is my country

Paine - wherever he is in chains, that is mine

I think Jefferson's statement is a very fine, noble and aspirational thing to say, personally, but in my opinion is trumped by Paine's reply, a statement of solidarity with all those suffering oppression.

He's one of the most radical thinkers of the late 18th century - a humanitarian, and a rebel. Any communist or anarchist, in my opinion, who doesn't respect Tom Paine's massive contribution to revolutionary thought hasn't studied enough history.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Tom Paine was cool. He was not a socialist but was a radical democrat, the ideology then popular among the English working class. Interestingly this ideology is paid lip service by the US Republican Party today, but it originally stood for fierce opposition to the power of the landed aristocracy. Paine was also fiercely anti-clerical, something which I like but which has never made him popular in more religious areas of the US.

Paine participated in the French Revolution (though an interpreter, he didn't speak French). He got in political hot water basically for supporting a conservative faction which opposed the execution of Louis XI and he himself was about to be guillotined. Washington hated Paine, I'm not totally sure why but I think partly because of his radicalism and basically said, "let him die".Thomas Jefferson intervened to safe his life.

Whatever shortcomings he may have had Paine definitely belongs in the "pantheon" of revolutionary heores.

[Ismail]

As others have said, Thomas Paine was objectively progressive for his time. It's worth noting that Paine actually criticized the nascent US Government because in his view the British aristocracy's hand was replaced by a "native" and newly aristocratic American hand. That's when Paine placed all his hopes on the French Revolution to make things right.

Efforts by Tea Party groups to turn Paine into some sort of hero of conservative "rationalism" and Ayn Rand or something against the evil hippie liberal socialists is a particularly lame and totally un-scientific effort at bringing Paine's late 18th century politics in league with modern-day American conservatism. It's similar to how conservatives like to paint Thomas Jefferson as the sort of guy who would join the NRA and serve in Vietnam to defend our freedoms against the dreaded communist threat or something (even though it must be noted that Jefferson wasn't nearly as progressive as Paine.)

[redSHARP]

Glenn Beck uses Paine's name to show how founding fathers (i.e Thomas Jefferson, Franklin, Washington) would hate Obama. Surprise surprise! Thomas Paine hated the US constitution, hated George Washington and the other founders, and almost died penny less in the US even though his pamphlets convinced many influential "patriots" to split with the UK instead of complain about taxes.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Cool dude. Very influential, too. After Common Sense was released, someone tried printing an anti-Common Sense pamphlet in the USA. A group of machinists ransacked and destroyed the printing presses (so much for free speech). That piece of writing in particular was widely read among the working people of the USA at that time. And elsewhere in England:


During the 1790s, when rhetoric from the Jacobins and Tom Paine were widespread among the radicalized working class, the rulers of "the cradle of liberty" lived in terror that the country would be swept by revolution. The system of police state controls over the population resembled an alien occupation regime. The Hammonds referred to correspondence between north-country magistrates and the Home Office, in which the law was frankly treated "as an instrument not of justice but of repression," and the working classes "appear[ed]... con- spicuously as a helot population." [Town Labourer 72]

[Lobotomy]

Thomas Paine kicked ass, if only because he actually gave a shit about what the common people thought instead of being wrapped up in the anti-tax aristocratic bs like most of the other Founding "Fathers".