Causes of World War II

[Property Is Robbery]

Very interesting in my opinion. Thoughts?
g9Lievywdoo

[The Man]

I find it very interesting on how the U.S. Government intentionally planned the Pearl Harbor attack, but no strategically.

[Apoi_Viitor]

My speakers are broken, so I can't listen to the video... but is Parenti really arguing that the US government 'planned' the Pearl Harbor attacks (just like how Parenti believes they 'planned' the assassination of JFK)?

[The Man]

My speakers are broken, so I can't listen to the video... but is Parenti really arguing that the US government 'planned' the Pearl Harbor attacks (just like how Parenti believes they 'planned' the assassination of JFK)?

Well, They did. U.S. Government documents released in 1990's proved it, I'll try to find a link for you. The government didn't necessarily dress up like the Japanese, and bomb Pearl Harbor themselves. But they wanted the Japanese to attack some how, so they made them.

But he's not arguing it in this video, I didn't finish it yet.

[Omsk]

This is all highly hypotetical,in fact,this can be debated,but noting can be solidly proved.

Causes of WW2.

Here is my opinion:
1) - The rise of Hitler and the spread of the nazi ideology. (the rise of Hitler and the rise of nationalism was part caused by the sanctions and restrictions by the imperialists of the west.)
2) The uninvolvment of England and France.Although Britain and France were aware of Hitler's actions, they were also concerned about the rise of Communism and believed that a stronger Germany might help to prevent the spread of Communism to the West.
3) The bad situation in the country,and the rising enmity toward foreigners,non Germans,Jews and Slavs.
4) Failure of Appeasement.
5) Failure of the League of Nations
The failure of the LoN was caused by a number of things:
The league had no army,not all nations joined it,it didn't have the authority,it could not act quickly enough.

But the great effort of the comrades of the Soviet Union and their allies,resulted in the ultimate defeat of Hitler and his sick ideologies and the end of his demonic followers.

[Dimentio]

The alternative to a war with Japan would have been Japanese colonialism in China, which would have meant a disaster for Asia.

[Princess Luna]

They did. U.S. Government documents released in 1990's proved it, I'll try to find a link for you. The government didn't necessarily dress up like the Japanese, and bomb Pearl Harbor themselves. But they wanted the Japanese to attack some how, so they made them.
why the fuck would the U.S. "plan" pearl harbor? it wasn't like the Gulf of Tonkin were they just had 2 ships slightly damaged, heres a list of the U.S. losses (from wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor))

Casualties and losses.
4 battleships sunk,
4 battleships damaged including 1 run aground
2 destroyers sunk, 1 damaged
1 other ship sunk
3 cruisers damaged

188 aircraft destroyed
155 aircraft damaged,
2,402 military killed
1,247 military wounded
57 civilians killed
35 civilians wounded
Not to mention if the U.S. wanted war with Japan it really didn't need to look far for a excuse, they could just claim they were "protecting" China.

[The Man]

why the fuck would the U.S. "plan" pearl harbor? it wasn't like the Gulf of Tonkin were they just had 2 ships slightly damaged, heres a list of the U.S. losses (from wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor))

Not to mention if the U.S. wanted war with Japan it really didn't need to look far for a excuse, they could just claim they were "protecting" China.


Here's your proof:

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/war/mccollum.htm

[#FF0000]

Here's your proof:

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/war/mccollum.htm

That's not proof at all, though.

Sorry, the Pearl Harbor thing really just makes no sense.

[Geiseric]

Lol, just goes to show how reactionary and imperialist the FDR era U.S. Government was, which mind you was one of the most progressive in the history of the U.S. /sarcasm

On a different note, I have a theory that normandy was in order to protect western europe from being under U.S.S.R. control.

[Jose Gracchus]

Sometimes Parenti says some really weird and embarrassing shit.

[9]

Causes of WW2.

Here is my opinion:
1) - The rise of Hitler and the spread of the nazi ideology. (the rise of Hitler and the rise of nationalism was part caused by the sanctions and restrictions by the imperialists of the west.)
2) The uninvolvment of England and France.Although Britain and France were aware of Hitler's actions, they were also concerned about the rise of Communism and believed that a stronger Germany might help to prevent the spread of Communism to the West.
3) The bad situation in the country,and the rising enmity toward foreigners,non Germans,Jews and Slavs.
4) Failure of Appeasement.
5) Failure of the League of Nations
The failure of the LoN was caused by a number of things:
The league had no army,not all nations joined it,it didn't have the authority,it could not act quickly enough.


I notice that you have a Lenin avatar, so I presume that you consider yourself a marxist? In which case its sort of strange that you just totally ignore the economic conditions when speculating about the causes of the deadliest bloodbath in the history of the human race... you would think that they'd be of some relevance at least...



But the great effort of the comrades of the Soviet Union and their allies,resulted in the ultimate defeat of Hitler and his sick ideologies and the end of his demonic followers."the Soviet Union and their Allies" were as much enemies of the working class as the Nazis.

[Apoi_Viitor]

"the Soviet Union and their Allies" were as much enemies of the working class as the Nazis.

Yeh, not really...

[Omsk]

I notice that you have a Lenin avatar, so I presume that you consider yourself a marxist? In which case its sort of strange that you just totally ignore the economic conditions when speculating about the causes of the deadliest bloodbath in the history of the human race... you would think that they'd be of some relevance at least...
Oh yes silly me i forgot to mention the economic collapse,which was a product of capitalists.Because the rich factory and industrial giants stopped the production of product when they accumulated in storages,because people could not afford to buy them,and when they stopped the production,(because they had no profit) that also ment that hundreds of factory workers also would lose their job,and they did.Causing a economic brake down,and Hitler,he promised change,workplaces,and the people supported him over the others.


"the Soviet Union and their Allies" were as much enemies of the working class as the Nazis.
Trough history there have been little true 'friends of the working people' but let me tell you,if i could choose,i would like to be under the 'Soviets and their allies' rather than the nazis a million times.
And do you know why?Because i would probably end up in a concentration camp under the nazis because i am a 'subhuman' according to these bastards.
And when i am speaking about the 'Soviet Union' i am not talking about a group of people in the Kremlin,or the White house,im talking about the millions of people of both the Soviet Union and the rest of the world who gave their lives for us to have a future

[Wanted Man]

Here's your proof:

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/war/mccollum.htm

Those are policy recommendations on containing Japan, not proof of a vast conspiracy.

I'm still listening to the Parenti talk, so I don't know if he really believes this stuff. It would be a disservice to him if he did.

EDIT: he didn't even talk about that in the video at all.

[ComradeOm]

...and the people supported him over the othersWhat? No they didn't. Hitler was appointed (not elected) into a position of power and the NSDAP was never able to make any real inroads into the working class. Until 1933, and the quashing of opposition parties, the workers remained solidly for the SPD or KPD

[Omsk]

Until 1933
After the Enabling Act of 1933 Hitler became popular,and he did poison the minds of many Germans with his ideologies.
But,even after that many people supported him,him and the NSDAP.
On the election day September 14, 1930, the Nazis recived over 6.000.000 votes!Gaining more than 100 seats in the Reichstag,so you cant say he didn't have the support.

[Wanted Man]

After the Enabling Act of 1933 Hitler became popular,and he did poison the minds of many Germans with his ideologies.
But,even after that many people supported him,him and the NSDAP.
On the election day September 14, 1930, the Nazis recived over 6.000.000 votes!Gaining more than 100 seats in the Reichstag,so you cant say he didn't have the support.

Yeah, and they won even more afterwards. No big news there. But the fact remains that Hitler never won a majority in any election that could remotely be described as "free and fair". In the federal elections before his appointment as Chancellor, Hitler actually lost slightly. Even after that, even after the Reichstag fire, they still couldn't get an absolute majority. This only happened after the banning of all opposition parties.

[ComradeOm]

For the record: I'm not going to consider forcibly disbanding all opposition parties and the use a mass propaganda campaign (over the better part of a decade) to be an accurate measure of the popularity of a party's policies


On the election day September 14, 1930, the Nazis recived over 6.000.000 votes!Gaining more than 100 seats in the Reichstag,so you cant say he didn't have the support.Yes, from the upper and middle classes. The working class remaining remarkably consistent in their support for the socialists

I actually took the time to draw up a chart illustrating the percentage of votes captured in the pre-1933 federal elections in the Weimar Republic. You can see here how the combined SPD and KPD share of the vote remains pretty static across the 1920s. Where there is a change its in the KPD eating into the SPD support base. The same is true at the other end of the spectrum where almost all of the NSDAP's gains come at the expense of other rightist parties. That is, the percentage of people voting for right-wing parties (from the national liberals through reactionaries to fascists) was roughly the same in 1932 as it was in 1924. At no point do the Nazis break out of this conservative milieu and start to make inroads into the socialist or centrist electorate. This rubbishes the idea that the Nazis attracted pan-German support or held any real attraction to the working class. What happened was that the existing middle class parties collapsed in the face of competition from the right

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v142/GreaterDCU/Misc/WeimarElections.gif

[the last donut of the night]

The alternative to a war with Japan would have been Japanese colonialism in China, which would have meant a disaster for Asia.

So war was the only option, then?

[ComradeOm]

So war was the only option, then?The Japanese High Command believed that it was. The US (together with Britain and the Netherlands) had initially attempted to thwart Japanese imperial gains in China via an oil embargo but this only entrenched the High Command's belief that war with the US was necessary if it was to realise its dreams of an Asian empire. Hence Pearl Harbour

[smk]

What? No they didn't. Hitler was appointed (not elected) into a position of power and the NSDAP was never able to make any real inroads into the working class. Until 1933, and the quashing of opposition parties, the workers remained solidly for the SPD or KPD
I wouldn't say he had little support from the working class. nsdap membership was about 30% blue-collar workers by 1932.

edit: oops. sorry for bumping old thread for pointless comment.

[Fulanito de Tal]

But the great effort of the comrades of the Soviet Union and their allies,resulted in the ultimate defeat of Hitler and his sick ideologies and the end of his demonic followers.

This needs to be put on billboards across the US. I'm so sick of hearing about how the US defeated Germany.

[stella2010]

:)

[stella2010]

So war was the only option, then?


Its a shame we have yet to progress from tribe and tradition. We are so much more than a hunter gathering society now. We can now fulfill the human spirit by other means and without all the bloodshed and class division.

Apart from a few stubbon idiots and their families we should be able to succeed,
we a are natuarally social and prefer laughter to violence.
__________________

[Rafiq]

Yeh, not really...

Elaborate.

[Rafiq]

This needs to be put on billboards across the US. I'm so sick of hearing about how the US defeated Germany.

I find it funny how the U.S. takes credit for the victories of the world wars.

"We Won World War One, Two, and We'll win three!"

The sad reality is that the United States tends to hop into the bloodshed at the last minute(in the case of Germany and not Japan) and after the allies (The Soviet Union, Britian) just defeat Germany, they yell "VICTORY TO THE US!"

[A.J.]

I wouldn't say he had little support from the working class. nsdap membership was about 30% blue-collar workers by 1932.

edit: oops. sorry for bumping old thread for pointless comment.

"blue-collar workers" could include a lot of self-employed persons. Who aren't, of course, working class but petty bourgeois. The latter traditionally being, along with lumpen/de-classed elements, Fascism's warmest supporters.

[pranabjyoti]

The alternative to a war with Japan would have been Japanese colonialism in China, which would have meant a disaster for Asia.
China was basically divided among various European powers then. How much more devastating Japanese colonialism would be?
So far, the behavior of Hitler and Nazi's was in good accordance with other European colonial rulers. But the basic difference is, the European colonial rulers did those "outside Europe", while Hitler and Nazi's applied it inside Europe as if they want to teach Europe how it looks like to be colonized.

[ComradeOm]

I wouldn't say he had little support from the working class. nsdap membership was about 30% blue-collar workers by 1932Think about that. If the Nazi membership was (max) 30% worker then this is completely out of proportion to the rest of the population. It means that the petit-bourgeoisie and upper classes (numerically much, much smaller) provided over 70% of the NSDAP's membership. Hence the characterisation of the Nazis as predominately petit-bourgeois

More to the point however, is that however many workers were attracted to the NSDAP ranks, the vast majority of the working class remained staunchly socialist. It was only in the eastern regions (where there was competition with the Poles) that the Nazis managed to gain anything resembling a mass working class following


China was basically divided among various European powers then. How much more devastating Japanese colonialism would be?At least 20-35 million Chinese were killed in the space of a decade (from 1937-45) by Japanese soldiers and occupation. That should answer your question

[Wanted Man]

I wouldn't say he had little support from the working class. nsdap membership was about 30% blue-collar workers by 1932.

Umm, yeah, exactly. Says enough, doesn't it?

[S.Artesian]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but you think maybe the causes of WW2 were like maybe determined by capitalism? Like maybe WW2 was part of the same process that produced the Great Depression? Something we might have heard called overproduction?

And then you think, after that, maybe WW2 was absolutely guaranteed by the defeats the working class suffered from 1927-1937-- you know uhh... like maybe in China, Germany, France, Spain, Vietnam?

You think?

[caramelpence]

China was basically divided among various European powers then. How much more devastating Japanese colonialism would be?

Not really - aside from the treaty port settlements and concessions, some of which (such as Xiamen) had actually been handed back to the Nationalists by the time war really broke out between Japan and China, the only areas that were directly controlled by any European powers were Macau and Hong Kong. The presence of the European powers in China more often took the form of the powers backing one or more of the warlords (so that France was closely tied to warlordism in Yunnan, for example) and undermining the tariff and tax autonomy of the Nationalist government. The European state that was most aggressive in backing actors within China was the Soviet Union, which was able to effectively turn Xinjiang into a puppet state during the main part of the Nanjing decade.

That being said, the Japanese presence also operated through puppet governments (most notably under Wang Jingwei) rather than through straightforward direct administration.

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

Not really - aside from the treaty port settlements and concessions, some of which (such as Xiamen) had actually been handed back to the Nationalists by the time war really broke out between Japan and China, the only areas that were directly controlled by any European powers were Macau and Hong Kong. The presence of the European powers in China more often took the form of the powers backing one or more of the warlords (so that France was closely tied to warlordism in Yunnan, for example) and undermining the tariff and tax autonomy of the Nationalist government. The European state that was most aggressive in backing actors within China was the Soviet Union, which was able to effectively turn Xinjiang into a puppet state during the main part of the Nanjing decade.

That being said, the Japanese presence also operated through puppet governments (most notably under Wang Jingwei) rather than through straightforward direct administration.

*cough* boxer rebellion *cough*

[caramelpence]

*cough* boxer rebellion *cough*

...which occurred at the turn of the century and ended with Cixi being allowed to remain in power, after being threatened by the Eight Nation Alliance and made to pay heavy indemnities. The aftermath of the Boxer Rebellion solidified the concessions that the Qing had been forced to make as a result of previous agreements like the Treaty of Nanjing and the Treaty of Tianjin but it did not result in China being transformed into anything like British colonial holdings in Africa or other parts of Asia and the resolution of the Boxer rebellion did not even result in the creation of new treaty powers or the long-term transfer of any territory to any of the Western powers.

The years that followed the Boxer Rebellion were arguably something of a breathing space for the Qing which is why they were able to experiment with constitutional reform (such as the calling of provincial assemblies in 1909, albeit on a highly limited franchise) and carry out the transformation of the education system, so that the traditional system of examinations for the civil service based on knowledge of the classics was abolished in 1905. At the very least, the post-Boxer period up to the fall of the Qing involved Japan becoming the main object of attention for Chinese reformers and statesmen, and part of the reason for that shift in emphasis was that the Western powers were being made to focus on growing tensions in Europe itself - tensions that would ultimately produce WW1.

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

...which occurred at the turn of the century and ended with Cixi being allowed to remain in power, after being threatened by the Eight Nation Alliance and made to pay heavy indemnities. The aftermath of the Boxer Rebellion solidified the concessions that the Qing had been forced to make as a result of previous agreements like the Treaty of Nanjing and the Treaty of Tianjin but it did not result in China being transformed into anything like British colonial holdings in Africa or other parts of Asia and the resolution of the Boxer rebellion did not even result in the creation of new treaty powers or the long-term transfer of any territory to any of the Western powers.

The years that followed the Boxer Rebellion were arguably something of a breathing space for the Qing which is why they were able to experiment with constitutional reform (such as the calling of provincial assemblies in 1909, albeit on a highly limited franchise) and carry out the transformation of the education system, so that the traditional system of examinations for the civil service based on knowledge of the classics was abolished in 1905. At the very least, the post-Boxer period up to the fall of the Qing involved Japan becoming the main object of attention for Chinese reformers and statesmen, and part of the reason for that shift in emphasis was that the Western powers were being made to focus on growing tensions in Europe itself - tensions that would ultimately produce WW1.

I'm drunk, i'll probably respond to you posts tomorrow isuel V2.0

[Raubleaux]

ComradeOm is very correct in this thread.

[Queercommie Girl]

Sometimes Parenti says some really weird and embarrassing shit.

What would you expect? Parenti is the weirdo who inspired DNZ to come out with his "Caesarean Socialism".

[Dimentio]

China was basically divided among various European powers then. How much more devastating Japanese colonialism would be?
So far, the behavior of Hitler and Nazi's was in good accordance with other European colonial rulers. But the basic difference is, the European colonial rulers did those "outside Europe", while Hitler and Nazi's applied it inside Europe as if they want to teach Europe how it looks like to be colonized.

Yup. The Nazis merely did in Europe what the European colonialists had done in America, Africa, Asia and Oceania. In that perspective, it was bound to happen.

China eventually went free from Japanese colonialism, and I doubt it would have done that hadn't the USA joined the fray (despite that it was of egoistical reasons). Besides, the Japanese were conducting an extremely brutal oppression of the Chinese people.

[Queercommie Girl]

China eventually went free from Japanese colonialism, and I doubt it would have done that hadn't the USA joined the fray


China would definitely have defeated Japanese imperialism even without any US (and don't forget the Soviets too) help, but it would have taken a longer time and a greater human toll to achieve.

[Invader Zim]

I find it very interesting on how the U.S. Government intentionally planned the Pearl Harbor attack, but no strategically.

Which is a load of bollocks.

[Invader Zim]

Here's your proof:

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/war/mccollum.htm

That isn't proof, all it shows is that a mid-ranking US intelligence official proposed that one method of engaging Japan militarily would be engineer a situation which would provoke an attack. That is not evidence that FDR actually orchestrated such a situation.

[smk]

Umm, yeah, exactly. Says enough, doesn't it?

I guess it depends on if you see 1/3 as a little. However, there is no doubt that NSDAP had more broad based support (including workers) than a lot of other parties such as KPD and I'm guessing SDP as well.

[Wanted Man]

I guess it depends on if you see 1/3 as a little. However, there is no doubt that NSDAP had more broad based support (including workers) than a lot of other parties such as KPD and I'm guessing SDP as well.

If there's no doubt that the Nazis had more working-class supporters than the KPD and SPD, I'm sure you can prove it. Anyway, Om already responded to this. Why don't you address his post, instead of my rather redundant one?

Obviously, if the workers are the vast majority of a certain country, but only 1/3 of a political party, that says a lot about that party's class character.

[Jose Gracchus]

What would you expect? Parenti is the weirdo who inspired DNZ to come out with his "Caesarean Socialism".

Parenti's Caesar book is crap, but no one could plausibly extract what DNZ did from it. He's just an opportunist.