Not being a pacifist

[Landsharks eat metal]

When I was younger, I considered myself a pacifist, but I never had a chance to put that belief to the test. Now that I've grown up some, several things happened seemingly simultaneously: I realized I was not really a pacifist (but still am antimilitaristic), I became acutely aware of my own dark side, and I tried to completely change who I was. In this situation, it's very difficult to determine how related different events were in forming my current belief system.
The issue I'm struggling with most is my abandonment of pacifism. I feel as though I took the easy way out by surrendering to the violence inherent in myself (that's not the best way to say that, I know. Sounds like I'm wantonly hurting people, which I'm not...), and possibly inherent in every human. Is violence inherent in the human race? Is it possible to be a non-hypocritical communist/anarchist yet believe terrible things about humans? Am I thinking too much at the expense of my feelings?
(I know this sounds a bit philosophical, but I'm posting it in Learning because I don't really know much about philosophy and don't really need incredibly deep answers, although I would like thoughtful ones.)

[Lenina Rosenweg]

I have struggled with this issue myself. I hate violence. At one time I regaded myself as a "militant pacifist", if there is such a thing.

This may be a superficial answer but some problems with pacifism

1.) People who supposedly advocated it, like Gandhi or Jesus, do not appear to be unconditional pacifists. Gandhi took actions which he knew would lead to violence.Satyagraha, non-violent rsistance, was a tactic, not a strategy. Jesus at times seemed to advocate a total non-resistance to evill, but he also orderd his followers to see their clthing to buy weapons.

2.) Pacifism doesn't work. It serves to disarm he working class.We should be very careful about how violence, or forceful coercian is used, but it is neccesary.

3. ) Pacifism is ultimately contradictory, it is not based on a princiupled political standard. During the 1930s the leadership of the US Socialist Party, based around Norman Thomas, were outspoken pacifists. Leon Trotsky said that when push came to shove,in an emergency, the SP leaders would abandon their pacifism When the Second World War broke out history proved him right.

Afgain though, this is something I've struggled with.

[Sixiang]

Is violence inherent in the human race?
This is one of the questions that sociologists, psychologists, and philosophers have been debating and trying to figure out for a long time. On the nature vs. nurture debate, I personally am on the nurture side. I think that the uncountable amount of social variables that affect a person's upbringing and surroundings are more influential on the person that they become than any sort of inherent qualities. I would say that violence is a reaction that humans use in various circumstances that drive them to it, usually. I'm excluding serial killers and the sort for this.


Is it possible to be a non-hypocritical communist/anarchist yet believe terrible things about humans?
I'm not sure I understand that question. Could you rephrase that one?


Am I thinking too much at the expense of my feelings?
Thinking is never bad.


(I know this sounds a bit philosophical, but I'm posting it in Learning because I don't really know much about philosophy and don't really need incredibly deep answers, although I would like thoughtful ones.)
That's what the learning forum is for.

[Landsharks eat metal]

I'm not sure I understand that question. Could you rephrase that one?
I almost feel as though I can't really believe communism will work if I don't believe the best about people... like the tiresome arguments about how people are just going to end up being lazy/stupid/violent if they don't have the incentives of a market system... and it's scaring me that I'm putting any stock in these people's words.

[#FF0000]

I almost feel as though I can't really believe communism will work if I don't believe the best about people... like the tiresome arguments about how people are just going to end up being lazy/stupid/violent if they don't have the incentives of a market system... and it's scaring me that I'm putting any stock in these people's words.

People aren't as bad as some like to say they are. If what they said was true, then we'd have gone extinct back in the hunter/gatherer days. People are social animals and we cooperate naturally.

[Sixiang]

I almost feel as though I can't really believe communism will work if I don't believe the best about people... like the tiresome arguments about how people are just going to end up being lazy/stupid/violent if they don't have the incentives of a market system... and it's scaring me that I'm putting any stock in these people's words.

I also wondered about this in the past.

This sort of thinking is exactly what reactionaries want you to think. If everyone is passive and accepts capitalism, then nothing will change. But if we don't take it and accept revolution, then we can change the world.

Also, it is capitalism that breeds laziness, not socialism. The "free market" creates the conditions for monopolies to exist. The larger the company in an industry, the less chance that smaller businesses have to compete. For example, Walmart buys off practically any competition or runs them out of business because it can afford to do so. In the late 19th century, American capitalists simply bought out the competition. Instead of competing with them, they just bought them. If no one can succeed except for the monopoly, then there is no incentive to try to beat them.

Also, if socialism makes people lazy and have no incentive to work, then why are there more doctors per citizen in Cuba than in any other country in the world? If so, then why does Cuba have the highest literacy rate in the world? If they're all lazy, then why would they want to study so hard to do jobs like being a doctor? Why did some 400 Cuban doctors volunteer to work for free in Haiti after the earthquake to help? There was no money incentive. They just did it. You see, it takes a strong sense of community to support socialism. I know that if I were able to live in a post-capitalist society, I would want to work as hard as I could for the betterment of all others, instead of to increase profit for the capitalist that employs me. Now that is an incentive, knowing that you are helping many other people not just to increase profits or go paycheck to paycheck to survive.

Also, money is not the only incentive to work hard or at all. Look up Jonas Salk, the doctor who developed the vaccine for polio. He didn't do it for money at all. He gave it away. Check out this guy, who talks about incentives:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrkrvAUbU9Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc

As far as the violence thing, I can say what others have said to me, the majority of the violence will come from the reactionaries, not the revolutionaries. We will defend ourselves and fight back for the revolution. I don't support random violence against innocent people. The reactionaries will strike out at revolutionaries and we will fight back.

I am not the best voice on this site for this sort of thing. I encourage you to think about and research these things more. This is all just my two cents for now.

[sister harb]

I am pasifist!

:blushing:

Don´t kill. It is saying in any religions holy books and should say also those whose hasn´t religion.

:(

[Landsharks eat metal]

I am not the best voice on this site for this sort of thing. I encourage you to think about and research these things more. This is all just my two cents for now.
You don't seem like you're too bad at it :)

I think what's killing me right now is that I'm taking a microeconomics class and I'm pretty sure I'm the only one who dislikes capitalism at all in there. (I was rather depressed to see my classmate reading Atlas Shrugged, and also the fact that the only book about communism the teacher seems to own is by Richard Pipes.)

[Kotze]

*doing the obligatory link thing we do around here when somebody mentions Atlas Shrugged (http://www.angryflower.com/atlass.gif)*

[Sixiang]

You don't seem like you're too bad at it :)

I think what's killing me right now is that I'm taking a microeconomics class and I'm pretty sure I'm the only one who dislikes capitalism at all in there. (I was rather depressed to see my classmate reading Atlas Shrugged, and also the fact that the only book about communism the teacher seems to own is by Richard Pipes.)

I feel your pain. I don't just go to school with capitalists, I live in one of the most conservative areas of the country. Practically everyone I go to school with who has an opinion is a right-wing Christian conservative. In my government class, there is me, an apolitical guy who just says stuff to irritate my incredibly right-wing teacher, and a sea of conservatives and center-right "moderates". My macroeconomics teacher is a Keynesian to the extreme. He worships the man, JFK, and Bill Clinton with an almost religious zeal. That guy, a liberal capitalist, is the closest person to my political beliefs that I've ever met. And he's way to the right of my beliefs. I've met a few anarchists before, but didn't discuss politics too much with them when we met, so I can't say much about them.