Poi Pot.

[eric922]

I was just wondering if anyone had any information on what Poi Pot's ideology was? I know it was some strange mix of Marxism/nationalism/primitiveism, but I was just wondering if anyone had any indepth sources? Google hasn't given me much. I should note that I of course don't follow him or consider him a Communist, this is just a curiosity thing.

[Sixiang]

I am no expert on the man, but I think the general consensus is that he was revisionist.

There have been several threads on him and the Khmer Rouge before. Just check out some of these:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/search.php?searchid=3464671

And I know that most people on here don't care for this guy, but I actually found this video somewhat helpful and informative on the Khmer Rouge in relation to Maoism:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEbQx4RmGPc&feature=channel_video_title

These videos are also very interesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQMyX80jCF8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qhgmfnRJio&feature=related

[The Man]

Who's Poi Pot?

Nah, Just kidding, I would consider Pol Pot as some sort of Maoist Third-Worldist.. Others say he was an Anarchist, which he was I guess in some ways.. And of course, Undoubtedly, he was a Primmie.

Just because he was an Anarchist doesn't mean that I support him.. Just in case some idiot comes in here..

[Robespierre Richard]

Who's Poi Pot?

It's a pot of poi that was leader of some country.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/05/Bowl_of_poi.jpg/500px-Bowl_of_poi.jpg

Now if you're talking about Pol Pot, AFAIK he only announced publicly that he is a communist after being invaded by Vietnam in some weird power move.

[Sixiang]

Now if you're talking about Pol Pot, AFAIK he only announced publicly that he is a communist after being invaded by Vietnam in some weird power move.

He was involved in a Marxist group while studying in France. I believe the Communist Party of Kampuchea was originally a Cambodian nationalist and anti-governmental party that eventually changed its name.

He and the Communist Party of Kampuchea broke with traditional Marxism by declaring that the rural peasants are the true proletariat and the revolutionary class. Most of Cambodia at that time and the members of the party were of rural peasant background. The party leaders were of peasant background. Their main focus turned to Cambodian nationalism and fighting off Vietnamese occupation. They wanted to put Cambodia on the map through a huge effort to create a "Year Zero" and to agrarianize the country.

[Robespierre Richard]

He was involved in a Marxist group while studying in France. I believe the Communist Party of Kampuchea was originally a Cambodian nationalist and anti-governmental party that eventually changed its name.

He and the Communist Party of Kampuchea broke with traditional Marxism by declaring that the rural peasants are the true proletariat and the revolutionary class. Most of Cambodia at that time and the members of the party were of rural peasant background. The party leaders were of peasant background. Their main focus turned to Cambodian nationalism and fighting off Vietnamese occupation. They wanted to put Cambodia on the map through a huge effort to create a "Year Zero" and to agrarianize the country.

I mean according to Wikipedia it was originally called the Workers' Party of Kampuchea but then...


The region Pol Pot and the others moved to was inhabited by tribal minorities, the Khmer Loeu, whose rough treatment (including resettlement and forced assimilation) at the hands of the central government made them willing recruits for a guerrilla struggle. In 1965, Pol Pot made a visit of several months to North Vietnam and China. He probably received some training in China, which must have enhanced his prestige when he returned to the WPK's liberated areas. Despite friendly relations between Sihanouk and the Chinese, the latter kept Pol Pot's visit a secret from Sihanouk. In September 1966, the party changed its name to the Communist Party of Kampuchea (CPK).[6] The change in the name of the party was a closely guarded secret. Lower ranking members of the party and even the Vietnamese were not told of it and neither was the membership until many years later (when Pol Pot revealed the identity of the "Angkar" on September 29, 1977). The party leadership endorsed armed struggle against the government, then led by Prince Norodom Sihanouk. In 1967, several small-scale attempts at insurgency were made by the CPK but they met with little success.

So basically it was some weird shit.

[PhoenixAsh]

Who's Poi Pot?

Nah, Just kidding, I would consider Pol Pot as some sort of Maoist Third-Worldist.. Others say he was an Anarchist, which he was I guess in some ways.. And of course, Undoubtedly, he was a Primmie.

Just because he was an Anarchist doesn't mean that I support him.. Just in case some idiot comes in here..


Pol Pot an anarchist? Are you one something??? :cool:

Saying Pol Pot is was an anarchist because he shared few aspects with the ideology is like saying elephants are birds because they also have blood and a heart.

:)

[Sixiang]

Pol Pot an anarchist? Are you one something??? :cool:

Saying Pol Pot is was an anarchist because he shared few aspects with the ideology is like saying elephants are birds because they also have blood and a heart.

:)
Yeah, I'm pretty sure he was not an anarchist.


I mean according to Wikipedia it was originally called the Workers' Party of Kampuchea but then...



So basically it was some weird shit.
Yeah. The whole situation is really quite odd. For instance, the monarchy has been re-established, but the leading party says it's communist, although it broke with ML a while ago. I don't know much about that whole French Indochina region.

[The Man]

Pol Pot an anarchist? Are you one something??? :cool:

Saying Pol Pot is was an anarchist because he shared few aspects with the ideology is like saying elephants are birds because they also have blood and a heart.

:)

Yeah I know.. I thought he never implemented a Dictatorship of the Proletariat though..

[RATM-Eubie]

Pol Pot: Some crazy mad man that gained power in Cambodia, moved everyone out of the cities to some slave camps, murdered million(s) of people, tried to teach kids to hate their parents, and tried to fight the Vietnamese.

[The Man]

Pol Pot: Some crazy mad man that gained power in Cambodia, moved everyone out of the cities to some slave camps, murdered million(s) of people, tried to teach kids to hate their parents, and tried to fight the Vietnamese.

Oh yeah, and killed anyone that wore glasses.

[Magón]

-KTsXHXMkJA

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

Pol Pot: Some crazy mad man that gained power in Cambodia, moved everyone out of the cities to some slave camps, murdered million(s) of people, tried to teach kids to hate their parents, and tried to fight the Vietnamese.

all with his bare hands..

but yeah, cambodia was some kind of primitive, nationalistic, authoritarian basket case at this point in history. i would love to read something credible and in-depth on it. john pilger's 'year zero' is an excellent documentary on the subject and also examines the role of the us in laying down the conditions that the khmer emerged from (i think it was year zero, pilger did a few docs on cambodia - all worth seeing though).

[Roach]

Oh yeah, and killed anyone that wore glasses.


Pol Pot killed himself ? :confused:

http://marcus-mayer.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/pol-pot.jpg


This group is dedicated to the study of the history of Cambodia: http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?groupid=595

There is also a user here called milk who has a lot of knowledge about this.

[StalinFanboy]

Pol Pot wasn't a Primitivist as this describes a specific political theory (that actually grew out of Marxism by the way). It's far more likely that he was just some power-hungry wingnut who saw pseudo-communism as a way into power.


Yeah I know.. I thought he never implemented a Dictatorship of the Proletariat though..

The Dictatorship of the Proletariat isn't something that is implemented by a leader or a vanguard. It is not declared. It is the term used to describe, in Marxist theory, the process by which working class people defend the revolution. Hence, Dictatorship of the Proletariat and not Dictatorship of the Party.

[Sixiang]

It's all very strange to me. Here's two more videos on Pol Pot that are interesting (it has a bourgeois bias, but it still has some interesting interviews, footage, and photographs):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKVx2exYazQ&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9Lo1uZ5EZg&feature=relmfu

What's really weird is the immense secrecy of the Khmer Rouge. The people knew that Pol Pot and "the organization" were in charge, but they didn't have a face for Pol Pot or for anyone in it. Even his own family didn't know until 1979 that he was Pol Pot.

I would characterize him as opportunist and revisionist. He adopted Chinese, Vietnamese, and French communist ideas and mixed them with a Cambodian feeling. Much like how Deng tried to adopt "socialism with Chinese characteristics." Speaking of Deng, Pol Pot liked Mao when the time was right, and Deng when the time was right. Hence the opportunism.

[The Man]

Pol Pot killed himself ? :confused:

http://marcus-mayer.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/pol-pot.jpg


This group is dedicated to the study of the history of Cambodia: http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?groupid=595

There is also a user here called milk who has a lot of knowledge about this.

Nope.. Everyone but himself.. That's another sick thing about him.. He also killed anyone with an education. Even though he was extremely educated.

[#FF0000]

Shit, son. Someone pm Milk and tell him to get in here.

for the record, Pol Pot was definitely awful but a lot of the things folks say about him are simply untrue. The glasses thing, for example, is false.

[daleckian]

All I know was that Angkar (Pol Pot's ruling council--Pol Pot wasn't the only one in charge) was initially funded in part by the United States military to act as a buffer against the Vietnamese, since during the Sino-Soviet split era around 1971, the Vietnamese were closer aligned with the Soviets while the Khmer Rouge were technically sponsored by the Chinese.
Ever since Nixon's visit to China in 1972, however the US poured finances into the Khmer Rouge to wage war against the Vietnamese (he did this in Laos too, specifically, with the Hmong and Vang Pao, to fight the Pathet Lao), and so when you really reflect, the Khmer Rouge genocide was the work of the US--the Khmer Rouge took advantage of the US bombing of the Cambodian countryside, and launched the april offensive into Phnom Penh, which they ruled with an iron fist until the communist Vietnamese liberated the country around 1979.

[daleckian]

Pol Pot wasn't a Primitivist as this describes a specific political theory (that actually grew out of Marxism by the way). It's far more likely that he was just some power-hungry wingnut who saw pseudo-communism as a way into power.


What an intellectually dishonest way to categorize the entire period of Cambodian history. Pol Pot was a complex character but I think personally he wasn't responsible for as much of the Khmer Rouge atrocities as people give him credit for. There was a whole council, and I'd say Ta Mok, Son Sen and Kang Kek Iew were probably responsible for 90% of the genocide victims alone. Others like Nuon Chea and Hu Nim (later sentenced to death on orders of Ieng Sary) were pretty unaware of what was going on in most of Cambodia, and I'd even argue that Pol Pot was as well.

Remember, Pol Pot's main goal was to beat back the Vietnamese out of historical Kampuchea, which is Kampuchea Krom (the Khmer part of Vietnam) and the traditional borders of Kampuchea beyond the Indochinese definition. He didn't oversea domestic affairs--that was Ta Mok Khieu Samphan, and Kang Kek Iew (probably the most notorious of the members).

I'm not justifying the Khmer Rouge crimes--they were terrible, and I believe Khmer Rouge ideology to be a poor one at that--but to simplify it as "Pol Pot wanted power" is pretty ridiculous.

[Tablo]

Yeah, Pol Pot was bad, but some people feel the need to rewrite history.. I guess to make it more interesting or in the name of anti-communism? He didn't kill people for wearing glasses or any nonsense like that.

[The Man]

Shit, son. Someone pm Milk and tell him to get in here.

for the record, Pol Pot was definitely awful but a lot of the things folks say about him are simply untrue. The glasses thing, for example, is false.

Seriously? Oh, well sorry for my misconceptions. Someone told me that however, I just don't exactly remember who.

[milk]

Pol Pot and the educated radicals, whether 'petit-bourgious' or otherwise, in an alliance with the poor peasantry (who were largely uninterested in socialism), were wannabes of the Marxist-Leninist type, and attempted to force through a socialist revolution without the conditions or classes to carry out that revolution.

Basically, a Khmer version of war communism made a 'great leap' into disaster.

[milk]

He was involved in a Marxist group while studying in France. I believe the Communist Party of Kampuchea was originally a Cambodian nationalist and anti-governmental party that eventually changed its name.

He and the Communist Party of Kampuchea broke with traditional Marxism by declaring that the rural peasants are the true proletariat and the revolutionary class. Most of Cambodia at that time and the members of the party were of rural peasant background. The party leaders were of peasant background. Their main focus turned to Cambodian nationalism and fighting off Vietnamese occupation. They wanted to put Cambodia on the map through a huge effort to create a "Year Zero" and to agrarianize the country.


The Vietnamese helped establish Parties in Laos and Cambodia during the First Indochina war. The Cambodian Party was set up in 1951 and named the Khmer People's Revolutionary Party, and was to act as a united front organisation, and a way of secretly inducting Cambodian radicals into the Indochina Communist Party. It could never operate in the open and remained clandestine and subject to government repression.

A connected organisation named the People's Group was set up to operate in the open and contest elections, representing the interests of those veterans and their communities who did not leave the country for northern Vietnam after the First Indochina War, which saw a settlement that refused the Cambodian Communists a regrouping zone, like that which happened over the border. The Cambodians who wanted to go, left for Hanoi when international observers oversaw the disarming of guerilla bands and the withdrawal of Vietnamese forces from Cambodian territory.

After the French, American imperialist interests were becoming increasingly hostile in the early 1960s, and the organisation was renamed the Workers' Party of Kampuchea in 1960, with the aim of organising the small and ineffectual Cambodian movement according to DRV interests for potential renewed struggle.

In 1966, the organisation was renamed the Communist Party of Kampuchea by the Cambodians themselves, when a change of leadership and conditions in the country saw the Communists heading for a violent confrontation and insurgency against Sihanouk's government, and a political line of struggle separate to Indochina-wide and Vietnamese-led interests.

[RadioRaheem84]

Pot was a mad man Primitivist. Let it be known that Commies took him down, while the US tried to help restore him and his gang to power later on.

[milk]

He wasn't mad, nor was he a primitivist. United States support in the 1980s was based on Realpolitik, with its support of the borderland coalition. One of the wider objectives was to weaken the Soviet Union by draining its regional ally, and while the Soviet government was supporting the Vietnamese, it was also involved in Afghanistan at the time. Then a more favourable political settlement could be reached. Internal splits and collapse aside, the US batted away the Khmer Rouge like flies, when their purpose was fulfilled.

[RadioRaheem84]

He wasn't mad, nor was he a primitivist. United States support in the 1980s was based on Realpolitik, with its support of the borderland coalition. One of the wider objectives was to weaken the Soviet Union by draining its regional ally, and while the Soviet government was supporting the Vietnamese, it was also involved in Afghanistan at the time. Then a more favourable political settlement could be reached. Internal splits and collapse aside, the US batted away the Khmer Rouge like flies, when their purpose was fulfilled.

Ah yes, realpolitik. The main thrust that absolves the US of any wrongdoing.

[milk]

Nope.

[chegitz guevara]

Pol Pot an anarchist? Are you on something??? :cool:

If we understand anarchism not as a set of ideas, but rather, the revolution movement of the peasantry, in other words, if we use an historical materialist rather than an idealist analysis, then Pol Pot very much was an anarchist.

[PhoenixAsh]

If we understand anarchism not as a set of ideas, but rather, the revolution movement of the peasantry, in other words, if we use an historical materialist rather than an idealist analysis, then Pol Pot very much was an anarchist.

In other words....if we would completely redefine anarchism...yeah then it would indeed fit.

But anarchism is not the revolutionary movement of the peasantry, and its not the social dictatorship and mass murders that followed after, nor the complete loss of autonomy.

Marxist/socialist movements all have similarities....but Pol Pot was definately not an anarchist.

[Lord Testicles]

If we understand anarchism not as a set of ideas, but rather, the revolution movement of the peasantry, in other words, if we use an historical materialist rather than an idealist analysis, then Pol Pot very much was an anarchist.

Anarchism is the revolutionary movement of the peasantry? First I've heard of it.

[Sixiang]

The Vietnamese helped establish Parties in Laos and Cambodia during the First Indochina war. The Cambodian Party was set up in 1951 and named the Khmer People's Revolutionary Party, and was to act as a united front organisation, and a way of secretly inducting Cambodian radicals into the Indochina Communist Party. It could never operate in the open and remained clandestine and subject to government repression.

A connected organisation named the People's Group was set up to operate in the open and contest elections, representing the interests of those veterans and their communities who did not leave the country for northern Vietnam after the First Indochina War, which saw a settlement that refused the Cambodian Communists a regrouping zone, like that which happened over the border. The Cambodians who wanted to go, left for Hanoi when international observers oversaw the disarming of guerilla bands and the withdrawal of Vietnamese forces from Cambodian territory.

After the French, American imperialist interests were becoming increasingly hostile in the early 1960s, and the organisation was renamed the Workers' Party of Kampuchea in 1960, with the aim of organising the small and ineffectual Cambodian movement according to DRV interests for potential renewed struggle.

In 1966, the organisation was renamed the Communist Party of Kampuchea by the Cambodians themselves, when a change of leadership and conditions in the country saw the Communists heading for a violent confrontation and insurgency against Sihanouk's government, and a political line of struggle separate to Indochina-wide and Vietnamese-led interests.
I appreciate all of your knowledge. Out of curiosity, do you have any books or documents you recommend on reading more about Cambodia and the CPK? You seem to be quite informed about that area of history and the world. I figure you're probably the best voice on this site for it.

[milk]

Will send a PM later on.

[eric922]

Could you send me one as well? Thanks.

[Ocean Seal]

Pol Pot? Wasn't he that capitalist who was backed by the CIA.

[Sixiang]

Will send a PM later on.

Sounds good. Thanks.

[Drosophila]

Pol Pot was in no way an anarcho-primitivist. If you really think his reign was comparable to the ideas of people like Henry David Thoreau, then you're nuts.

[Apoi_Viitor]

What was the reasoning for the Khmer Rouge's extreme secrecy? And how did they manage to keep it?

[milk]

Conditions within and without the country contributed to their insularity and paranoia.

They had a history of having to form habits of clandestinity, as a necessity, and a fear of enemies. The Cambodian movement had been ruthlessly repressed in the 1950s and 60s by Sihanouk's government, and Vietnamese Communist policy during that time towards Cambodia came to be at odds with how the Communists in that country could operate. The DRV had a very important strategic interest in Cambodia (get rid of the United States), and so stressed to the Cambodian movement (which would become estranged from Vietnamese-led interests in the context of an Indochina-wide conflict), that peaceful opposition should be made with domestic policies but be united with the Prince in national matters, in order to ensure the country's independence, and prevent American influence from spreading. This was unworkable, for the Communists were being harassed, imprisoned and killed by Sihanouk's government.

So, for years they’d been bullied by the condescending Vietnamese, falling out of touch with the Cambodian movement they had had a fundamental hand in creating. The Cambodians had also faced the prospect of being physically wiped out by homegrown opponents. The war would intensify both of these things, and after the war, the country was considered to be surrounded by enemies. To the west, in Thailand, were American military bases, sanctuaries containing Khmer Serei rebel fighters and officer remnants of the Lon Nol military who had escaped capture and summary execution. The Vietnamese bullies and sell-outs were to the east. And the town-based elite that had remained in the country at the end of the war, and had been defeated, were still seen as a threat.