Why bother "educating" white people?

[727Goon]

Alot of people in the anti racist or Black Power movement talk about education as the solution to racism. I guess that's fine for a liberal, but I think from a revolutionary socialist or anarchist perspective the only way to end the white power structure is through revolutionary change. White people, even working class whites are a privileged class. Their interests are opposed to ending white supremacy. A good percentage of whites may oppose the white power structure but out of altruism and not because they have anything to gain. Since racism entails white people certain privileges its not in their interests to lose them. Regardless we shouldnt need their support in the movement but welcome it if they give it. Trying to educate a privileged class about why they should give up their privilege is ultimately pointless, convincing white people that racism is wrong is like trying to educate the bourgeois about the wrongs of capitalism.

edit: Dont take this to be some sort of kill whitey NOI style rant, I'm not saying white people are bad people just a privileged class

[The Man]

It sounds like your calling all Caucasians racist to me. To me you sound like a hypocrite. Oh, and if your nonsensical theory about 'We shouldn't educate Caucasians that racism is bad' is so true, why is a lot of Racism dead and different then the 60's? Oh, I don't know, maybe EDUCATION.

[727Goon]

Bro I'm mixed I'm not racist against white people. I dont think a lot of racism is dead, maybe less socially acceptable but its manifested itself in different forms.

[The Man]

Bro I'm mixed I'm not racist against white people. I dont think a lot of racism is dead, maybe less socially acceptable but its manifested itself in different forms.

I never said you were racist against white people. I just feel like your giving this falsehood that because Caucasians have a smaller tone of Melanin in their skin, they won't understand why racism is evil, And I quoute (I don't know how to do an actual forum quote):convincing white people that racism is wrong is like trying to educate the bourgeois about the wrongs of capitalism.

Oh, and I'm not trying to go on a rant against you either. Polite forum arguments :thumbup1:

[727Goon]

I never said you were racist against white people. I just feel like your giving this falsehood that because Caucasians have a smaller tone of Melanin in their skin, they won't understand why racism is evil. Hence: convincing white people that racism is wrong is like trying to educate the bourgeois about the wrongs of capitalism.

Oh, and I'm not trying to go on a rant against you either. Polite forum arguments :thumbup1:

Its not about melanin, its about social structure. Race is a social construct and white people grow up surrounded by white supremacy. But my point isnt that it's impossible to educate white people about racism, the point is its a shitty strategy. As a privileged class, white people have no incentive to give up their privilege. Expecting a white person to give up their racial privilege is like expecting a bourgeois person to give up their class privilege. You have to take it.

[Chairman Mike]

If you don't want to educate white people because they're white, isn't that being racist?

[The Man]

If Caucasians are in such a privileged class, why are a lot of them fighting for a Worker's Revolution? Why are the Caucasian Proletarians still fighting if they are so 'privileged'?

[Robocommie]

I'd argue that convincing white workers that racism is bad is more like convincing workers that capitalism is bad, not the bourgeoisie. White supremacy is not in the best interests of the white working class; that's a racial nationalist line which argues that white workers have more in common with white capitalists, when in fact a white worker and a black worker, materially, have more in common. I mean, isn't that the socialist line, that workers of all nations, colors and creeds must work together to emancipate themselves and each other?

Racism obscures this; it sets white workers against black, native workers against immigrants, when they should be working together against the common enemy; capital. This is why a struggle against capital is by necessity also a struggle against racism.

That said; I'll never want to deny that the situation facing say, black folks in the US, is in anyway the same as that facing white folks in the US, so I don't want to give the impression that I reject the concept of white privilege. The truth is, I don't think black folks or any other minority group should have to "win over" white folks. In a lot of ways, anti-racism struggles are similar to anti-colonial struggles in that regard.

[727Goon]

I'd argue that convincing white workers that racism is bad is more like convincing workers that capitalism is bad, not the bourgeoisie. White supremacy is not in the best interests of the white working class; that's a racial nationalist line which argues that white workers have more in common with white capitalists, when in fact a white worker and a black worker, materially, have more in common.

Racism obscures this; it sets white workers against black, native workers against immigrants, when they should be working together against the common enemy; capital. This is why a struggle against capital is by necessity also a struggle against racism.

But white workers have a racial privilege that black workers dont have. Why is it in the white workers interests to abolish that privilege?

[727Goon]

If Caucasians are in such a privileged class, why are a lot of them fighting for a Worker's Revolution? Why are the Caucasian Proletarians still fighting if they are so 'privileged'?

They arent as privileged as capitalists but they have more rights and opportunities than black workers. I dont see how you can deny this.

[Rusty Shackleford]

I'd argue that convincing white workers that racism is bad is more like convincing workers that capitalism is bad, not the bourgeoisie. White supremacy is not in the best interests of the white working class; that's a racial nationalist line which argues that white workers have more in common with white capitalists, when in fact a white worker and a black worker, materially, have more in common. I mean, isn't that the socialist line, that workers of all nations, colors and creeds must work together to emancipate themselves and each other?

Racism obscures this; it sets white workers against black, native workers against immigrants, when they should be working together against the common enemy; capital. This is why a struggle against capital is by necessity also a struggle against racism.

That said; I'll never want to deny that the situation facing say, black folks in the US, is in anyway the same as that facing white folks in the US, so I don't want to give the impression that I reject the concept of white privilege.


excellent post. seriously, excellent.

[GPDP]

Its not about melanin, its about social structure. Race is a social construct and white people grow up surrounded by white supremacy. But my point isnt that it's impossible to educate white people about racism, the point is its a shitty strategy. As a privileged class, white people have no incentive to give up their privilege. Expecting a white person to give up their racial privilege is like expecting a bourgeois person to give up their class privilege. You have to take it.

Then let's not phrase it as a struggle against white supremacy, at least not by itself. I would think the primary struggle for revolutionary socialists would be the class struggle, not trying to guilt-trip white liberals through identity politics.

That's not to say the oppression those of colored skin like myself face should be tolerated, ignored, or left uncriticized. Far from it. What I'm saying is, make the struggle to end racial supremacy a part of the wider struggle to emancipate the working class INTERNATIONALLY.

[727Goon]

What is this 'Racial Privilege'?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=white+privilege

[gestalt]

Racism is a symptom of economic exploitation and hierarchical social relations. As institutionalized, it is a viable tool to perpetuate division amongst the working class. With that in mind, anti-racist education is essential to creating global worker solidarity and to the success of revolution.

[The Man]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=white+privilege

Can you give me an example of White Privilege?
Now I'm not trying to deny that Racism still exists, I just want an example.

[727Goon]

Then let's not phrase it as a struggle against white supremacy, at least not by itself. I would think the primary struggle for revolutionary socialists would be the class struggle, not trying to guilt-trip white liberals through identity politics.

That's not to say the oppression those of colored skin like myself face should be tolerated, ignored, or left uncriticized. Far from it. What I'm saying is, make the struggle to end racial supremacy a part of the wider struggle to emancipate the working class INTERNATIONALLY.

I agree with this but I'm not sure how it contradicts the idea that revolutionary change is a much better tactic than whatever bullshit about education.

[Robocommie]

excellent post. seriously, excellent.

Thanks, Rusty. :) I'm afraid you both quoted different versions because it's such a complicated subject I kept going back and changing my wording. lol

[727Goon]

Can you give me an example of White Privilege?

You not getting your ass beat by the cops for being the wrong color. You having better access to jobs, housing, and even food because of the color of your skin. You not even realizing racism exists anymore. You not realizing how culturally biased against black people and other minorities American culture is. Et fucking cetera.

[Robocommie]

But white workers have a racial privilege that black workers dont have. Why is it in the white workers interests to abolish that privilege?

Well, but the abolition of white privilege is not so much a downgrading of white conditions as much as it is the abolition of non-white repression, isn't it? White workers don't truly have anything to gain from racism, speaking materially. They only think they do because that's the hegemonic discourse.

You said it yourself, it's all a social construct, it's a house of cards obscuring the reality.

[727Goon]

Thanks, Rusty. :) I'm afraid you both quoted different versions because it's such a complicated subject I kept going back and changing my wording. lol

Yeah that last paragraph yo added changed it a lot haha. I just dont see how white folks would materially benefit from the white power structure being dismantled.

[Robocommie]

You not getting your ass beat by the cops for being the wrong color. You having better access to jobs, housing, and even food because of the color of your skin. You not even realizing racism exists anymore. You not realizing how culturally biased against black people and other minorities American culture is. Et fucking cetera.

However, the abolition of white privilege isn't really about abolishing white access to those things, but rather of universalizing access, isn't it? That is to say, universalizing access to better jobs and housing, education, and both cultural and social autonomy. It's not so much about whites "losing" those things as much as ending the restriction of them to non-whites.

[mlgb]

how far will you push this logic anyway? i suspect only as far as you are still a revolutionary, however dishonest that may be.

men are a privileged class. what interest do they have in overthrowing that privilege?

christians are a privileged class. what interest do they have in overthrowing that privilege?

heteronormatives are a privileged class. what interest do they have in overthrowing that privilege?

this could go on and on and on. makes for a very lonely barricade.

[727Goon]

Well, but the abolition of white privilege is not so much a downgrading of white conditions as much as it is the abolition of non-white repression, isn't it? White workers don't truly have anything to gain from racism, speaking materially. They only think they do because that's the hegemonic discourse.

You said it yourself, it's all a social construct, it's a house of cards obscuring the reality.

Well if there was no white privilege white people would potentially have more competition for jobs. I guess thats not looking at it from an anti capitalist perspective though since in a socialist society there wouldnt be that kind of competition. White workers would also lose their higher social standing.

[Tim Finnegan]

But white workers have a racial privilege that black workers dont have. Why is it in the white workers interests to abolish that privilege?
While white workers are privileged, it's only in the same sense that salaried professionals are privileged within capitalism; it's a relatively privilege, within a system of oppression that contributes to the objective degradation of the relatively privileged group, so in absolute terms that group still stands to gain from the dissolution of the system of oppression. The problem is that the hegemonic ideology misleads privileged workers to believe that their relative privilege is in fact absolute, thus creating a false class conciousness that leads this relatively privileged but objectively disadvantaged class to act against its own interests.

Hence, the need for education to challenge false consciousnesses of all sorts, be it racial, class, gender, or anything else. You'll get no revolution without it.

[Rusty Shackleford]

im a white, straight communist and im for internationalism and free gender expression.

i can assure you, i still have a lot to benefit from anti-bigotry.

one is a little more working class unity.

[Gears]

Well if your point is that White People, no matter what economic level, are a class among themselves because of White Privilege, then I would say you have a point.

But if you're saying that all white people agree with this system and are all racists, then you are very wrong.


White People want to change society also, for the better.

[Robocommie]

Yeah that last paragraph yo added changed it a lot haha. I just dont see how white folks would materially benefit from the white power structure being dismantled.

I think it's complicated... But overall I think it's a bit unfair to expect non-whites to have to play to white folks. I mean real talk, white people sometimes have serious blinders on about racism, both institutional and overt. As a white man myself I have sometimes been astounded to the extent that people can just coast on their assumptions. A dose of critical race theory can do wonders for your perceptions, though.

You could also make a point in line with Fanon about how a struggle against racism is as much a struggle against internal colonization as it is against institutional oppression, so it has to be done by the colonized themselves. Good old Fanon. :D

[Le Socialiste]

I'm not sure I understand your point here: white people are a "privileged class", yet remain unaware of their status as privileged? Therefore, white members of the working-class cannot contribute much towards any genuine revolutionary movement based on their own "inherent" racism as a "privileged class"? Either way, while racism is an evil that must be combatted, we should not seek the further division of any potential working-class action by separating them as privileged or non-privileged (within the realm of race). If we narrow our focus to one's own racial differences, we do the broader movement - as a whole - a disservice.

[Edit] - Ah, I see. We're discussing white privilege. Yes, certainly this exists. But my comment remains the same: all workers, no matter their race, sex, gender, or creed join in the struggle for the emancipation of the masses. Either we lose the movement in a mess of divisive rhetoric and action, or we acknowledge that all people deserve to be equal and unified in the face of a Capitalism that is all too content to divide and conquer.

[The Man]

You not getting your ass beat by the cops for being the wrong color. You having better access to jobs, housing, and even food because of the color of your skin. You not even realizing racism exists anymore. You not realizing how culturally biased against black people and other minorities American culture is. Et fucking cetera.

I'm pretty sure Muhammad Ali, Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, Will Smith, Bill Cosby, Barack Obama, My black neighbors who have a 26,000 square foot house, own a massive pharmaceutical corporation in Asia, have 300 acres, and each of their 4 children has a ATV, Et fucking cetera, have pretty good access to Food, Jobs, and Housing.

[727Goon]

I'm pretty sure Muhammad Ali, Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, Will Smith, Bill Cosby, Barack Obama, My black neighbors who have a 26,000 square foot house, own a massive pharmaceutical corporation in Asia, have 300 acres, and each of their 4 children has a ATV, Et fucking cetera, have pretty good access to Food, Jobs, and Housing.

Goddamn dude, just because they managed to be successful despite white supremacy doesnt mean it doesnt exist. I guess because some working class people become rich capitalism is fair. Just to throw a statistic at you a white person just out of prison is more likely to be hired than a black person with no record.

[The Man]

Goddamn dude, just because they managed to be successful despite white supremacy doesnt mean it doesnt exist. I guess because some working class people become rich capitalism is fair. Just to throw a statistic at you a white person just out of prison is more likely to be hired than a black person with no record.

Can I please have the link to this statistic?
Again, I'm not saying your wrong, I just want to see it.

[Summerspeaker]

Oppressed groups certainly hold no obligation to educate their oppressors. However, worthwhile reasons for doing so exist. As white privilege resides significantly in discourse and perception, struggling against in in this arena makes sense. Some radicals of color - such as Gloria Anzaldúa - considered engaging as an educator valuable. Others don't. Your mileage may vary.

[727Goon]

Can I please have the link to this statistic?
Again, I'm not saying your wrong, I just want to see it.

http://www.dmiblog.com/archives/2007/09/white_convicts_as_likely_to_be.html

[The Man]

http://www.dmiblog.com/archives/2007/09/white_convicts_as_likely_to_be.html

First of all it says "White Convicts As Likely to Be Hired As Blacks Without Criminal Records" Not "White Convicts have a higher chance to Be Hired As blacks Without Criminal Records."

Second of all, **I AM NOT RACIST. I HOPE YOU ALL KNOW THAT**, For some reason multiple studies from the FBI, and other government agencies have shown that blacks tend to commit more crimes: http://www.peace.ca/truthaboutblackcrime.htm

Now, Am I saying that all black people are bad? Absolutely not.. I don't care what you look like..Also, quite honestly, I wouldn't care if Whites committed more crimes, because I know that I don't, and I am not part of the "White Race" or the "Black Race".. I'm just a damn human being. And trust me, I hate Racism as much as the next guy. Sure, is there Racism that floats around in the world? Yes, no one can deny that. But what I am trying to say is that from your original post, you seem like just because people are Caucasian means that they are part of some elite, Hierarchal, Supreme, Racist regime.

[Tim Finnegan]

I am not part of the "White Race" or the "Black Race".. I'm just a damn human being.
The very fact that you feel at liberty to disown your whiteness in this manner is itself an expression of white privilege: people of colour have their race hammered home on a daily basis, so it is not something they can or, if they have an ounce of social conciousness, would want to retreat from. That is a luxury reserved exclusively for those whose racial experience is the assumed universal norm.

[The Man]

The very fact that you feel at liberty to disown your whiteness in this manner is itself an expression of white privilege: people of colour have their race hammered home on a daily basis, so it is not something they can or, if they have an ounce of social conciousness, would want to retreat from. That is a luxury reserved exclusively for those whose racial experience is the assumed universal norm.

Well.. That quote was actually from a friend of our family who is black, and was an activist for the Civil Rights Movement in the 60's.

[727Goon]

First of all it says "White Convicts As Likely to Be Hired As Blacks Without Criminal Records" Not "White Convicts have a higher chance to Be Hired As blacks Without Criminal Records."

Second of all, **I AM NOT RACIST. I HOPE YOU ALL KNOW THAT**, For some reason multiple studies from the FBI, and other government agencies have shown that blacks tend to commit more crimes: http://www.peace.ca/truthaboutblackcrime.htm

Now, Am I saying that all black people are bad? Absolutely not.. I don't care what you look like..Also, quite honestly, I wouldn't care if Whites committed more crimes, because I know that I don't, and I am not part of the "White Race" or the "Black Race".. I'm just a damn human being. And trust me, I hate Racism as much as the next guy. Sure, is there Racism that floats around in the world? Yes, no one can deny that. But what I am trying to say is that from your original post, you seem like just because people are Caucasian means that they are part of some elite, Hierarchal, Supreme, Racist regime.

Do you think that there maybe just might be a socio economic reason blacks commit more crimes or do you think its just random? And you know you're splitting hairs at this point "as likely" is still bad.

[Tim Finnegan]

Well.. That quote was actually from a friend of our family who is black, and was an activist for the Civil Rights Movement in the 60's.
It's hardly the same sentiment coming out of a black mouth as a white one. He's arguing that people should regard each other without reference to their race, while you're simply arguing that people should stop reminding you that you're white. Those are two remarks of substantially different character.

[727Goon]

Well.. That quote was actually from a friend of our family who is black, and was an activist for the Civil Rights Movement in the 60's.

"Some of my best friends are black"

[The Man]

Do you think that there maybe just might be a socio economic reason blacks commit more crimes or do you think its just random? And you know you're splitting hairs at this point "as likely" is still bad.

It's a Socio Economic reason, absolutely, some can be random, sure. But does that REALLY have to do anything with skin color? Honestly, In my opinion, if people would stop bringing up stuff like the OP did, we would have a better chance at shooting down Racism once, and for all. But we are letting it continue to live, by talking about these things. In my mind, we are just stirring the pot for the Racist Bastards.

[Nolan]

White workers don't gain anything from racism. Other workers lose.

This thread is the product of some seriously muddleheaded thinking with no Marxist analysis in sight.

[727Goon]

It's a Socio Economic reason, absolutely, some can be random, sure. But does that REALLY have to do anything with skin color? Honestly, In my opinion, if people would stop arguing about this type of crap, we would have a better chance at shooting down Racism once, and for all. But we are letting continue to live, by talking about these things.

You have the privilege of being able to ignore race. I don't. You obviously have no idea what its like to grow up black in America. I'm not trying to white guilt you or whatever, but understand that you're seeing things from a very white perspective, from the perspective of someone who has never had to deal with racism. I mean real nigga shit you have no idea and it seems like you don't want to know. And you're right it has nothing to do with skin color, but it has everything to do with race.

[727Goon]

White workers don't gain anything from racism. Other workers lose.

This thread is the product of some seriously muddleheaded thinking with no Marxist analysis in sight.

White workers gain a more privileged position in society and have access to better amenities. I'm not a Marxist so who cares if my analysis is in lockstep agreement with Marx. Dont get me wrong Marx had some great ideas but yall treat that shit like a religion sometimes I swear.

[The Man]

You have the privilege of being able to ignore race. I don't. You obviously have no idea what its like to grow up black in America. I'm not trying to white guilt you or whatever, but understand that you're seeing things from a very white perspective, from the perspective of someone who has never had to deal with racism. I mean real nigga shit you have no idea and it seems like you don't want to know. And you're right it has nothing to do with skin color, but it has everything to do with race.

Your right, I don't. But I have been educated (The thing that you said wouldn't work) to know that Racism is evil, and ignorant. That's why i have been to many protests supporting equal race rights in the past.

[Nolan]

White workers gain a more privileged position in society and have access to better amenities. I'm not a Marxist so who cares if my analysis is in lockstep agreement with Marx. Dont get me wrong Marx had some great ideas but yall treat that shit like a religion sometimes I swear.

lol. That would explain it then.

[Amphictyonis]

But white workers have a racial privilege that black workers dont have. Why is it in the white workers interests to abolish that privilege?

Indeed, much of this privilege that does exist is rooted in history, slavery, racism and the economic advantage today's workers parents, grandparents and great grandparents had as a result of excluding the African American community from equal opportunity. Fighting for equal opportunity TODAY under capitalism is HUGE for many reasons. Not only morally (which is obvious) but if white workers can;t embrace minority workers they will NEVER embrace socialism. I think the work place conditions are changing (in working class jobs) but the high end petty bourgeois jobs are still predominately worked by white people. This again is the lasting effect of having the upper class be predominately white. More money, easier life= easier family life= better education= more opportunity. Access to working class jobs these days doesn't seem as limited for people of color so long as certain 'social criteria' is met. The same 'social criteria' which applies to white working class. At the same time many working class jobs in states unlike California still have the "good O'l boy" system in place. My vision on the matter may be a bit skewed after living in San Fransisco and Oakland for the last decade. In fact, it has to be. I cant imagine the economy in Oakland is the same as the economy in anywhere USA. People of color here have more opportunity because there's more people of color who own businesses/get loans from banks etc. Racism is still a huge problem and I think this is another issue Obama has obfuscated. It's a step in the right direction electing a person of color but too many liberals have declared ' an end to racism'. This hasn't happened by a long shot. No way no how. Equal opportunity and an end to racism are still key issues for not only America but all advanced capitalism nations.

[727Goon]

Your right, I don't. But I have been educated (The thing that you said wouldn't work) to know that Racism is evil, and ignorant. That's why i have been to many protests supporting equal race rights in the past.

Cool I guess. My main point is that we dont need yall. If you want to support the cause great but based on your posts I think you have a terrible understanding of race in America and it's probably best if you stick to other shit.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

White people, even working class whites are a privileged class. Their interests are opposed to ending white supremacy.I really don't count not getting pulled over as often and shit like that a privilege. I don't think I've ever gained anything because of white supremacy, I'm actually pretty sure living in a neighborhood with four white families in it made white supremacy a pretty negative thing for me.


A good percentage of whites may oppose the white power structure but out of altruism and not because they have anything to gain.So? It may be true that a lot of white people may oppose white supremacy out of altruism instead of for more material reasons(like the liberation of working people). But I support the right for gay people to marry, and I try and educate people to be more open-minded towards gay people. What do I have to gain from that? I mean I'm straight, what am I possibly to gain?


Since racism entails white people certain privileges its not in their interests to lose them. Regardless we shouldnt need their support in the movement but welcome it if they give it.What is the movement? Black Power movement? What exactly does that entail? I really don't know, because in my experience that's what a bunch of black people would scream before they were about to fight a bunch of people from another race. The other race was usually screaming "White Power" or "Brown Pride" or something like that. Which is why whenever I see people saying such things I just shake my head.


Trying to educate a privileged class about why they should give up their privilege is ultimately pointless,But what exactly is this privilege, less oppression than another group?


convincing white people that racism is wrong is like trying to educate the bourgeois about the wrongs of capitalism.Then you have many capitalists on your side? You do know this forum is full of anti-racist white people right?

[The Man]

Cool I guess. My main point is that we dont need yall. If you want to support the cause great but based on your posts I think you have a terrible understanding of race in America and it's probably best if you stick to other shit.

Be honest, cause I don't really care. Would you consider me racist for my posts?

[727Goon]

I really don't count not getting pulled over as often and shit like that a privilege. I don't think I've ever gained anything because of white supremacy, I'm actually pretty sure living in a neighborhood with four white families in it made white supremacy a pretty negative thing for me.

As an ideology white supremacy may not be appealing to you but you benefit from the reality of it. If you dont think avoiding police brutality and harassment is a privilege what about having better access to education and good housing and jobs.


So? It may be true that a lot of white people may oppose white supremacy out of altruism instead of for more material reasons(like the liberation of working people). But I support the right for gay people to marry, and I try and educate people to be more open-minded towards gay people. What do I have to gain from that? I mean I'm straight, what am I possibly to gain?

So since it's not in their material interests theres no real point in preaching to them. We might as well do our own thing and accept whatever support we get.


What is the movement? Black Power movement? What exactly does that entail? I really don't know, because in my experience that's what a bunch of black people would scream before they were about to fight a bunch of people from another race. The other race was usually screaming "White Power" or "Brown Pride" or something like that. Which is why whenever I see people saying such things I just shake my head.

The Black Power movement entails fighting for social and economic freedom for the black community. It's bigger than niggas beefin over bullshit in the hood or whatever.


But what exactly is this privilege, less oppression than another group?

Sure, and better access to amenities.


Then you have many capitalists on your side?

Why should a working class movement care if capitalists support it?


You do know this forum is full of anti-racist white people right?

In theory

[727Goon]

Be honest, cause I don't really care. Would you consider me racist for my posts?

You might be racist, or you might be a typical ignorant white person. Either way your bringing up crime statistics and shit is suspect.

[Amphictyonis]

Cool I guess. My main point is that we dont need yall. If you want to support the cause great but based on your posts I think you have a terrible understanding of race in America and it's probably best if you stick to other shit.

Yes everyone needs everyone or socialism is a lost cause. What you don't need are the patronizing efforts of liberals to feel better about themselves. What WE working class all need is solidarity :) The ruling class feeds off of racial divisions. One of their best weapons.

[The Man]

You might be racist, or you might be a typical ignorant white person. Either way your bringing up crime statistics and shit is suspect.

Ah, yes the Typical Ignorant White Person.. And you say you are anti-racist?

[A Revolutionary Tool]

As an ideology white supremacy may not be appealing to you but you benefit from the reality of it. If you dont think avoiding police brutality and harassment is a privilege what about having better access to education and good housing and jobs. I really don't see how I, coming from a working class family, benefit from the reality of any of this supposed white privilege that I'm supposed to benefit from. I've been effected by police brutality and my family has been harassed by the police before. But I'm white, how can that be? Maybe because poor white folks aren't seen as "white", they're seen as "white-trash", and when we hang around with Mexicans and black people it must make us race traitors or some other bullshit. Where is this white privilege of access to better housing for me when I'm living surrounded by minorities, where is this white privilege for me in education when I have racially diverse classroom's. I'm being taught the same bullshit as my friend Pedro sitting next to me in economics. And where the fuck is this white privilege for me when my friends of all different colors and I all can't get a fucking job? It really seems like this white privilege stuff just gave a big middle finger to my white family and I. I'm not going to say there is no such thing as white privilege, what I'm saying is a lot of white people seem to have missed the white privilege train.



So since it's not in their material interests theres no real point in preaching to them. We might as well do our own thing and accept whatever support we get.But it is in the working classes interests. I'm not going to look at it from a point of view that doesn't involve the class struggle in it. How is it in my material interests to support a rich white man over a poor black man?



The Black Power movement entails fighting for social and economic freedom for the black community. It's bigger than niggas beefin over bullshit in the hood or whatever.I still don't really know what that entails.



Why should a working class movement care if capitalists support it?They shouldn't, but the anti-racist movement should care about white people supporting them for instance.




In theory
So what are you saying this forum is full of white people who are racist?

[Chairman Mike]

If a black man can become president, then white people must be educated enough to know that racism is bad.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Working class white people are not a class, they are a strata of the working class. The working class is a class.

Thus, they could not be a 'privileged class'.

This is irrelevant anyway, because I don't see the OPs rant as anything other than racist in itself. Yes, there is still some despicable racism around, but the OP has the problem of putting race above class. Racism is a by-product of the existence of different classes in many instances: in the UK, for instance, scapegoating of non-whites is often used to either explain away economic crises, or distract the populace from some government/ruling class action.

[gestalt]

Cool I guess. My main point is that we dont need yall.

Who would be used in part to help put down this hypothetical revolution, in America at least, besides the uninformed white underclass?

By dividing us between privileged and non-privileged in the context of race, you are doing the capitalists' job of sowing discord amongst the workers for them.

It leads to a larger, meta question as well: if you believe attempts to educate white people on the issue are futile, why make this thread? Why engage with other comments therein? Maybe I am being presumptive, but it seems that you accept the benefit of dialogue in spreading ideas and that it is the basis of learning.

This thread has many benefits, chiefly, it demonstrates that some among our ranks are unaware or indifferent to the reality of privilege conferred and conveyed by simple genetic factors under capitalism. Yet it falls short on its prescriptions, the eradication of racism will only come through a fundamental change in the economic relations of society. That fundamental change can only come from a global revolution of the working class. That global revolution is the product of solidarity in which we unite across the imaginary lines of race, gender, orientation, et al.

[brigadista]

First of all it says "White Convicts As Likely to Be Hired As Blacks Without Criminal Records" Not "White Convicts have a higher chance to Be Hired As blacks Without Criminal Records."

Second of all, **I AM NOT RACIST. I HOPE YOU ALL KNOW THAT**, For some reason multiple studies from the FBI, and other government agencies have shown that blacks tend to commit more crimes: http://www.peace.ca/truthaboutblackcrime.htm

Now, Am I saying that all black people are bad? Absolutely not.. I don't care what you look like..Also, quite honestly, I wouldn't care if Whites committed more crimes, because I know that I don't, and I am not part of the "White Race" or the "Black Race".. I'm just a damn human being. And trust me, I hate Racism as much as the next guy. Sure, is there Racism that floats around in the world? Yes, no one can deny that. But what I am trying to say is that from your original post, you seem like just because people are Caucasian means that they are part of some elite, Hierarchal, Supreme, Racist regime.

Black people tend to commit and be convicted of more crimes?

tend to be charged and convicted don't you mean? does not mean they have committed the crimes- especially given a legal system that does not provide equal justice ...I personally would not rely on FBI statistics - you need to look at structural racism within the criminal justice system before you go there - just saying

[Robespierre Richard]

We don't need y'all for revolution or anything.


Race/Ethnicity (2009)[122]
White 79.6%
Black 12.9%
Asian 4.6%
American Indian and Alaska Native 1.0%
Native Hawaiian and Pacific Islander 0.2%
Two or more races 1.7%
Hispanic (of any race) 15.8%

So basically just kill all the white people

IN5StQAr7n0

[gorillafuck]

But white workers have a racial privilege that black workers dont have. Why is it in the white workers interests to abolish that privilege?Well for one reason which is one that's less explicitly anti-capitalist, racism harms relations between human beings. Black kids and white kids not being able to hang out because of parental racism is an obvious detriment to both kids, despite that it is racism at black people.

As for a more explicitly anti-capitalist one, ending racism is a class interest because class unity is a class interest. White workers are positioned above black workers, but for all workers to raise themselves and defeat capitalism, divisions need to be overcome.

[The Man]

Oh yeah, and speaking of this so called 'White Privileged Bourgeois Class', is a White homeless person part of a privileged class also?

(Took this from Zeekloid :thumbup1:)

[Obs]

ITT: we offer our perspective on the correlation between race relations and class relations, and then call people racists if they disagree.

Anyway, 727, what do you suggest we do if not educate white people? What "revolutionary change" do you suggest we use to put a stop to this problem? Race war?

Seriously, what's with all these proto-MTWs lately.

[Robespierre Richard]

I have proposed, in the past, that the JDPON should disperse the Amerikkkans throughout the Third World instead of allowing them to remain in occupied North America. Here are some of my reasons:

1) A geographic concentration of Amerikkkans would facilitate counterrevolution. It would also be difficult to exercise proletarian dictatorship over hundreds of millions of enemies: we would need to import a huge unproductive sector of police and such from the Third World. As a practical matter, it would be better to thin the Amerikkkans out, making them minorities in the Third World, where they could easily be controlled and supervised by the international proletariat.

2) Amerikkkans will need to undergo re-education. It would be very difficult to re-educate them in their own kkkountry. They need to be in a proletarian environment where they can learn from the masses.

3) There are land claims to settle, mainly for the First Nations, but also for Aztlán [occupied Mexico -- MSH) and perhaps the Black nation. Conceivably some other nations could be moved to North America if they wished to be, such as Nauru or the small nations in Ghana whose land has been ruined by imperialist corporations. Amerikkkans are going to have to move out of much of North America and make room for other nations.

4) Amerikkkan kkkulture is almost totally reactionary. There is little worth saving in Amerikkkan kkkulture. It would be better to force Amerikkkans to assimilate to the more culturally and politically advanced peoples of the Third World. There is also historic justice in forcing Amerikkkans to assimilate, just as they destroyed so many other nations and cultures.

5) In the early stages of socialism, the Third World will require skilled workers and technicians of various kinds, including medical personnel. These persyns are disproportionately concentrated in the First World. Moving them to the Third World will be a practical way to address an urgent need.

6) The Third World is also owed big reparations. An excellent way to make those reparations is to put Amerikkkans to work building infrastructure in the Third World: roads, housing, water supplies, sewage, electricity, telecommunications, schools. Amerikkkans can also work in Third World factories and fields to expand production for the benefit of the Third World.

7) Part of the process of civilizing and proletarianizing Amerikkkans will be putting them to productive work--for a change. Amerikkka has so little productive capacity that there may not be many ways to put all those people to work in occupied North America. They may have to go to the factories and fields of the Third World.

8 ) Amerikkkans will need to be reduced to a Third World standard of living. If they stay in occupied North Amerikkka, they will benefit from the vastly better infrastructure and all the stolen wealth that they currently hold. It would be better to move them to the Third World as a way of accelerating the process of re-education.

9) There are historical precedents for relocating large numbers of enemies. Millions of Germans were forced to move after the Soviet victory over fascism in World War II. Even enemies like the united $nakes and the "united" KKKingdom agreed that it was necessary to move Germans off land that was needed for Poles, Czechs, and others. Again, this is related to the national question of the First Nations, Aztlán [occupied Mexico -- MSH], and the Black nation.

[coda]

disclaimer: didn't read through entire thread..

<<<I'm pretty sure Muhammad Ali, Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, Will Smith, Bill Cosby, Barack Obama, My black neighbors who have a 26,000 square foot house, own a massive pharmaceutical corporation in Asia, have 300 acres, and each of their 4 children has a ATV, Et fucking cetera, have pretty good access to Food, Jobs, and Housing. >>>

That's a HUGE misconception... (ha,! and you glaringly forgot Oprah! whoopsie!) Those examples you cite are exceptions to the rule. They do not represent the majority of a black race anywhere on this planet. It's percentage by actual numbers that count.(if someone hasn't already pointed that out in this thread.)

[RED DAVE]

But white workers have a racial privilege that black workers dont have. Why is it in the white workers interests to abolish that privilege?(1) Yes, white workers do have a racial privilege.

(2) While it is real, it is negligible compared to the class privilege of the bourgeoisie.

(3) The impoverishment of the working class and the petit-bourgeoisie in America, and the rise of a black section of of the ruling class, has made the privilege less real materially (wages) if still real psychologically.

(4) History has show that, especially in progressive periods, such as the one we are entering, cooperation between white and black workers tends to grow.

RED DAVE

[Ocean Seal]

Alot of people in the anti racist or Black Power movement talk about education as the solution to racism. I guess that's fine for a liberal, but I think from a revolutionary socialist or anarchist perspective the only way to end the white power structure is through revolutionary change. White people, even working class whites are a privileged class. Their interests are opposed to ending white supremacy. A good percentage of whites may oppose the white power structure but out of altruism and not because they have anything to gain. Since racism entails white people certain privileges its not in their interests to lose them. Regardless we shouldnt need their support in the movement but welcome it if they give it. Trying to educate a privileged class about why they should give up their privilege is ultimately pointless, convincing white people that racism is wrong is like trying to educate the bourgeois about the wrongs of capitalism.

edit: Dont take this to be some sort of kill whitey NOI style rant, I'm not saying white people are bad people just a privileged class

I disagree. There is a difference. The difference is that the bourgeois are the true privileged class, and that ending capitalism would be beneficial to workers of all colors. The argument that whites will always support capitalism because they are privileged workers is like saying that 1st world workers will always support capitalism because they gain from the imperial relationship between nations.
Under capitalism there will always exist privileges. What the bourgeois class wants us to do is fight it out amongst ourselves while they keep all the profits and give us back scraps.
From the moment of birth...
Whites have racial privilege
Men have gender privilege
Heterosexuals have orientation privilege
First world workers have imperial privilege

HOWEVER, what one has to remember is that the power structure is broken down in the end of capitalism and the battle against capitalism is not drawn out through racial lines, or gender lines, or so on. While whites may have racial privilege, many of them lack economic privilege, and have a lot more to gain from the fall of capitalism than through the maintenance of white supremacy.

We can't marginalize ourselves by excluding whites from revolutionary change when their majority has so much to gain. And education in understanding that the difference between the races is socially constructed is key, and that discrimination creates underclasses will be key to ending racial tension and installing a progressive revolutionary socialist government free from discrimination.

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

White workers gain a more privileged position in society and have access to better amenities. I'm not a Marxist so who cares if my analysis is in lockstep agreement with Marx. Dont get me wrong Marx had some great ideas but yall treat that shit like a religion sometimes I swear.

Racism does not benefit poor white workers. It is used to divide the working class. Black workers and white workers hold the same stakes in the fight against capitalism. For example, if you look at the wage differences between Southerners and Northerners, which is in large part determined by the level of unionization (and you have to consider how much the unions have been held back by racism), white workers and black workers both lose out because they are divided. Check out this study:


http://www.isreview.org/issues/46/whiteness.shtml[/URL]"]
But what is most dramatic—in each of these blue-collar groups, the Southern white workers earned less than Northern Black workers. Despite the continued gross discrimination against Black skilled craftsmen in the North, the “privileged” Southern whites earned 4 percent less than they did. Southern male white operatives averaged…18 percent less than Northern Black male operatives. And Southern white service workers earned…14 percent less than Northern Black male service workers.”24

So there you can see that white workers are actually at a material disadvantage because of racism.

[Summerspeaker]

By dividing us between privileged and non-privileged in the context of race, you are doing the capitalists' job of sowing discord amongst the workers for them.

Unfortunately, the division existed well before the publication of this thread. Imperialism and capitalism have made the distinction clear and reinforce it regularly. Race isn't some inherent biological quality but a social construction with a specific history. The entire concept of whiteness functions as club of privilege. Consider how southern and eastern European immigrants to the United States in the nineteenth century only gradually gained admittance to the club. They did so by explicitly placing themselves at opposition with blacks, Amerindians, and Asians. For example, striking Greek miners rejected solidarity with their Japanese coworkers to join the white-only union. Exclusion defines whiteness and it has always divided the working class.

[gestalt]

Unfortunately, the division existed well before the publication of this thread. Imperialism and capitalism have made the distinction clear and reinforce it regularly. Race isn't some inherent biological quality but a social construction with a specific history. The entire concept of whiteness functions as club of privilege. Consider how southern and eastern European immigrants to the United States in the nineteenth century only gradually gained admittance to the club. They did so by explicitly placing themselves at opposition with blacks, Amerindians, and Asians. For example, striking Greek miners rejected solidarity with their Japanese coworkers to join the white-only union. Exclusion defines whiteness and it has always divided the working class.

Not sure where in my two posts in this thread that I said otherwise.

In the capitalist narrative, genetic "superiority/inferiority" was a necessary justification for the exploitation of workers both at home and abroad. Whether the "survival of the fittest" or the "civilizing" of colonized peoples.

Still, perpetuating division of the workers based upon evident and admitted privileges shared by some does nothing to bring us closer to revolution.

This idea that "we don't need y'all" is a detriment to organization. Conscious workers need other conscious workers.

[EspirituDeAmaru]

White privilege is something constructed by the conquerors of new land to justify they're actions. I believe the ruling class of any race can be just as detrimental and damaging as white people. Latins and Africans have no problem in killing and torturing their own regardless of race. We can look at Cuba for example and their racial integration and virtual mutual acceptance of all people in their society.

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

Unfortunately, the division existed well before the publication of this thread. Imperialism and capitalism have made the distinction clear and reinforce it regularly. Race isn't some inherent biological quality but a social construction with a specific history. The entire concept of whiteness functions as club of privilege. Consider how southern and eastern European immigrants to the United States in the nineteenth century only gradually gained admittance to the club. They did so by explicitly placing themselves at opposition with blacks, Amerindians, and Asians. For example, striking Greek miners rejected solidarity with their Japanese coworkers to join the white-only union. Exclusion defines whiteness and it has always divided the working class.

Greek miners took up arms against corporate security thugs and state militias. You have history pretty backwards to say striking miners were placing themselves in opposition to Blacks, Amerindians, and Asians when they were actively fighting the state that enslaved/exterminated/exploited all of these groups. They could never have realized that level of solidarity amongst miners without significant multinational co-operation, mutual respect for each others cultures, and a realization of a common interest across their national divisions (differences purposefully exploited by companies to act as a barrier to a united working class identity). Multinational solidarity between different working class immigrant groups is the opposite of the "melting pot" model of forced assimilation.

Which white-only union are you referring to? The United Mine Workers (UMW) it seems was actually pretty much the opposite of a white-only union, at least by the 1930s:


http://wox.sagepub.com/content/25/4/436.abstract[/URL]"] In 1933, the United Mine Workers (UMW) adopted the “UMW formula” for placing Black workers in positions as union officers and organizers. Adopted from more radical unions, the formula institutionalized racial inclusion, which proved to be a major tactical innovation in realizing class solidarity across racial lines.

[Summerspeaker]

I was thinking on the example of the 1912 Bingham Canyon strike in Gunther Peck's excellent book Reinventing Free Labor (http://www.amazon.com/Reinventing-Free-Labor-Immigrant-1880-1930/dp/0521778190), but many similar cases exist. It was the Western Federation of Miners that excluded Japanese workers while including Greeks and Italians.

[CAleftist]

Race is a fluid, evolving concept.

200 years ago, the elites in the United States were all WASP aristocracy, with a few exceptions. The Irish weren't considered white.

Nowadays, the capitalist elite is a "meritocracy" but the institutions and historical privilege is profoundly skewed towards those who came from historically privileged families. And that privilege was the fact that they were both white AND upper class.

What you see today is the assimilation of SOME non-whites into capitalist culture, while excluding the vast majority of working class of any "race." Look at Barack Obama. He's both black and white, but he identifies with upper-class culture, not working-class black culture and certainly not working-class white culture.

Race and class are inseparable in America, and racism is both an evil and a huge obstacle-perhaps the largest-to union of the working class. Without attacking racism and white supremacy, we might as well be in a cave without a light.

[Robocommie]

Race and class are inseparable in America, and racism is both an evil and a huge obstacle-perhaps the largest-to union of the working class. Without attacking racism and white supremacy, we might as well be in a cave without a light.

Yes indeed, and I would rush to point out that America, not just the US but all of the Americas, are where economic stratification has a very powerful racial element to it, owing both to the subjugation of the darker skinned Native American peoples and nations, and the widespread importation of Africans as chattel slaves. Since the beginning, poor whites have been able to be recruited by the ruling class whites in order to protect their "common" interests against non-whites. White supremacy is real, but it was intentionally built for a very specific purpose.

To ignore the way that race and class intersect and complicate one another in an American context is sticking your head in the sand.

[black magick hustla]

saying that white workers are privilieges is as nonsensical as saying the house negro was privileged

[Desperado]

White people, even working class whites are a privileged class. Their interests are opposed to ending white supremacy.

Racism is a way for the state and capitalism to divide the workers. As a leftist, you should see that the true interest of white workers is to end their exploitation - exploitation by an economic class, not a race - and that this is all the easier if they are united with all other workers.


edit: Dont take this to be some sort of kill whitey NOI style rant, I'm not saying white people are bad people just a privileged class

If you see races as classes, why are you even on this forum?

[HEAD ICE]

Much of the "white privilege" talk, even when given by supposed "marxists", essentially boils down to that racism and more specifically "white privilege" is wrong because it prevents those "non-privileged" groups from achieving the American dream. Thus, a just society = one where the richest strata of the population and the bourgeoisie is composed of a proportionate amount of minorities and women. Sometimes people will say "of course we have to fight against capitalism" - whatever that means. Then they will give the formula that every petit-bourgeois vomits out to avoid any talk of class struggle - "well, before we can better struggle as a class, we must get rid of these racial barriers and privileges blah blah blah i eat poop."

"White privilege" is a totally Amero-centric concept, and it has no basis in class politics, thus making it a form of class politics - it is politics of the petit-bourgeois. This becomes clearer when "privilegists" say things like Bill Cosby is "internalizing whiteness" when he gives speeches talking about how black people "in the hood" are lazy and stupid. That kind of talk is not specific to any kind of "whiteness" (exposing the entire concept as purely American centric) but it is complete bourgeois ideology, and Bill Cosby, being a bourgeois, peddles because it justifies his class status. That kind of language is used by the bourgeoisie the world over, and it can only be called "whiteness" given the specific geo-historical development of the concept of race with the growth of American class power.

The way to end racism is not in some stupid individualist liberal shit like being a "race traitor" it is common class struggle that demolishes bourgeois political power and establishes social production for human need.

[Tim Finnegan]

Oh yeah, and speaking of this so called 'White Privileged Bourgeois Class', is a White homeless person part of a privileged class also?
Given that they're less likely to be murdered by the police than a black homeless person? Yes.

White privilege is relative, not absolute. It's one of many intersecting forms of oppression, all of which are ultimately expressions of capitalism itself.


White privilege is something constructed by the conquerors of new land to justify they're actions. I believe the ruling class of any race can be just as detrimental and damaging as white people. Latins and Africans have no problem in killing and torturing their own regardless of race. We can look at Cuba for example and their racial integration and virtual mutual acceptance of all people in their society.
Cuba has far more prevalent problems with racism than is generally acknowledged. It's certainly not what it was under Batista, and often less than many parts of the United States, but it's not the post-racial paradise that the Communist Party begs us envision. (Of course, as much as any concious suppression of the issue by the party, this is as much because Afro-Cubans have bitten their tongue, because opposing the party could help lead to a return of the hated Miami aristocracy. Better, the general opinion is, a ruling class that is merely indifferent to racism than one which is actively white supremacist.)
It's something that's likely to come to prominence in the future, as America backs off and Cuba begins to liberalise.


Race is a fluid, evolving concept.

200 years ago, the elites in the United States were all WASP aristocracy, with a few exceptions. The Irish weren't considered white.
And even today, the borders blur around the edges. Some ethnicities, such as Lebanese or Turks, are offered a "provisional whiteness", you might say, which is confirmed by their adherence to white cultural norms. Take an average woman from the Levant and most Americans and (at least Northern) Europeans would simply think of her as "Mediterranean", perhaps Greek or Spanish if asked to guess her nationality, but basically white. Put that same woman in a hajib, and she will be instantly recognise as an Arab (or should that be "Arab", given that they'd say the same of a Kurd?), and therefore non-white. It's a system of classification which owes far more to culture than its adherents are willing to admit.

[daleckian]

It sounds like your calling all Caucasians racist to me. To me you sound like a hypocrite. Oh, and if your nonsensical theory about 'We shouldn't educate Caucasians that racism is bad' is so true, why is a lot of Racism dead and different then the 60's? Oh, I don't know, maybe EDUCATION.


Why is it whenever someone offers honest criticism of the dominant majority, it immediately gets handed off as "racist against white people"?

I didn't see anything racist.

[Robocommie]

Why is it whenever someone offers honest criticism of the dominant majority, it immediately gets handed off as "racist against white people"?

Because white folks get super defensive when it comes to racism. It can make it impossible to get an honest discussion without people trying to turn it into some kind of accusation to all the white people in the conversation.

[Obs]

Because white folks get super defensive when it comes to racism. It can make it impossible to get an honest discussion without people trying to turn it into some kind of accusation to all the white people in the conversation.
I'd say white revolutionaries (actually, revolutionaries in general) also tend to get defensive when it's inferred that they profit from the standing socio-economic order.

[The Man]

Okay. If we can't 'educate' white people. What do you suppose we do?

[Geiseric]

This is ridiculous, I'm white and I don't benefit from the socio economic conditions. My dad's a plumber and mom's unemployed, so I don't get where this notion of all white people live in 2 story, 6 bedroom houses comes from because for myself and many other whites I know, we live in apartments. Malcolm X regretted accepting white help and he regretted it later on, because he realised he was being racist himself

[daleckian]

This is ridiculous, I'm white and I don't benefit from the socio economic conditions.

LOL, Yeah, you do. All white people do, especially those of western european extraction (Eastern and Balkan Europeans seem to be put into a separate category these days: white but not white enough). It's just the nature of the white supremacist power structure. To say you don't benefit from it is really bullshit.
The only white people I noticed who don't benefit from it (at least in my personal experience) are those white people who have non-white children with non-whites, those married to non-whites, or those who surround themselve with non-whites...but even then, they'll still a slight step above non-whites in the eyes of society, by virtue of being white. This is changing, albeit slowly...but to suggest it doesn't exist? that's lunacy.


My dad's a plumber and mom's unemployed, so I don't get where this notion of all white people live in 2 story, 6 bedroom houses comes from because for myself and many other whites I know, we live in apartments.

your Dad's unemployed...but he'll be the first to be hired again when hiring begins. he'll also be the last to be fired. do you know what the unemployment rate is amongst black males is? 17%. white males? 8.5.


Malcolm X regretted accepting white help and he regretted it later on, because he realised he was being racist himself

Yes Malcolm X DID change his perspective towards white people as individuals...not of white society as a whole. just because he realized his own personal prejudices (I don't like calling it racism in his context) were invalid, doesn't mean he believed that white supremacist society was any less responsible for the pain of black people.

See? you're one of those people who need education on white society since you don't really know anything about how much your skin color really helps you and your family advance in life.

[Robocommie]

I'd say white revolutionaries (actually, revolutionaries in general) also tend to get defensive when it's inferred that they profit from the standing socio-economic order.

I'm not sure the extent to which racism concretely benefits white workers, including revolutionaries, at least not in financial terms. However, I would argue that what white supremacy has done is create a false dividing line where whites of all classes feel they are vested in the system because of white supremacy. White proletarians can be persuaded to act against their class interests in order to defend this system, because then at least they feel like they've got something to be proud of; yes their life may suck, yes their bills are overdue or they're out of work, but at least they're white, at least they have dignity.

I would argue that that's the benefit that a lot of whites receive from racism, whether subconsciously or not. It's bullshit, it's a lie, but that's what hegemony does; it causes people to work against their own class interests in the pursuance of a lie.

[Franz Fanonipants]

White comrades necessarily must and should understand that white supremacy (in the lower case sense) is one of the many ways that capitalism perpetuates itself. To be an anti-capitalist is necessarily to be anti-racist, as the two are dependent structures. It's really that simple.

Whether or not it should be the Internally Colonized Marxist's priority to inform and educate their comrades is sort of not the point. Class and race struggle cannot be separated in the United States. What the Internally Colonized need to avoid, though, is shifting entirely into reactionary rhetoric that privileges identity over material analysis, recreating capitalist structures in the Black community is just as problematic as that structure existing without it. But this goes three or fourfold for the white Marxist as well.

Also, restrict Lycanthrope for reactionary bullshit.

[Quail]

Because white folks get super defensive when it comes to racism. It can make it impossible to get an honest discussion without people trying to turn it into some kind of accusation to all the white people in the conversation.
This seems to happen with pretty much every discussion about discrimination - racism, sexism, etc. It's really unproductive.

OP, I think that you're wrong. Education is one of the most important tools in eliminating discrimination. We can win political equality for everyone, but to get rid of discrimination completely, we need to get rid of the discrimination in people's minds that is a result of growing up in an unequal society.

[Rêve Rouge]

There are many white folks that may be stubborn when faced with the phrase "white supremacy", but that doesn't mean ALL white people refuse to accept it. Education does work, just not 100%. But hey, every little helps. A revolution, especially in America isn't gonna happen anytime soon. So you gotta use what you can to fight racism in the meantime at least. Unless you're willing to put up with it until a revolution is to come.

If you truly believe education won't work, then what is your solution?

[Chimurenga.]

saying that white workers are privilieges is as nonsensical as saying the house negro was privileged

You've got to be fucking kidding me. :laugh:

[Franz Fanonipants]

saying that white workers are privilieges is as nonsensical as saying the house negro was privileged

left communism is idealist garbage and should be thrown out of any discourse. hard.

[daleckian]

saying that white workers are privilieges is as nonsensical as saying the house negro was privileged

comparing what was then considered a piece of property and 2/5 a human being to a free white man who has the privelidge to vote and own private property, even if in a bourgeois election and borgeouis society respectively, is absolutely disgusting. shame on you.

It seems some white "leftists" will go to just about any means to deny that they are members of a privileged class.

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

Expand this logic on a worldwide scale and we're all just a bunch of labor aristocrats feeding on the privileges of the imperialist power structure, which we can never be expected to overthrow. If lumping all whites together regardless of class is acceptable then surely lumping together all Americans or First Worldists is just as rational.

[Franz Fanonipants]

comparing what was then considered a piece of property and 2/5 a human being to a free white man who has the privelidge to vote and own private property, even if in a bourgeois election and borgeouis society respectively, is absolutely disgusting. shame on you.

It seems some white "leftists" will go to just about any means to deny that they are members of a privileged class.

Maldoror isn't white. He's just a part of the whitest tendency.

It's like the Martha's Vineyard of tendencies.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Expand this logic on a worldwide scale and we're all just a bunch of labor aristocrats feeding on the privileges of the imperialist power structure, which we can never be expected to overthrow. If lumping all whites together regardless of class is acceptable then surely lumping together all Americans or First Worldists is just as rational.

White supremacy exists and is one of the ways that capitalism has historically perpetuated itself. Structurally speaking this needs to be addressed by American anti-capitalists.

You're making one of the hallmarks of discussing capitalism in the US comparative to MTWist bullshit, and that's ridiculous.

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

How is it? The criteria proposed by the OP for his theory that whites are a "privileged class" is apparently disparity in access to jobs, housing, food, etc. That obviously applies far more in the relation between those in the first world and those in the third world than it does between whites and blacks within the first world.

[Invader Zim]

Alot of people in the anti racist or Black Power movement talk about education as the solution to racism. I guess that's fine for a liberal, but I think from a revolutionary socialist or anarchist perspective the only way to end the white power structure is through revolutionary change. White people, even working class whites are a privileged class. Their interests are opposed to ending white supremacy. A good percentage of whites may oppose the white power structure but out of altruism and not because they have anything to gain. Since racism entails white people certain privileges its not in their interests to lose them. Regardless we shouldnt need their support in the movement but welcome it if they give it. Trying to educate a privileged class about why they should give up their privilege is ultimately pointless, convincing white people that racism is wrong is like trying to educate the bourgeois about the wrongs of capitalism.

edit: Dont take this to be some sort of kill whitey NOI style rant, I'm not saying white people are bad people just a privileged class

Race =/= class.

[Property Is Robbery]

Their interests are opposed to ending white supremacy... Since racism entails white people certain privileges its not in their interests to lose them.

It's in my interest to end white supremacy because I think I'd be gaining something and not losing something if I lived in a world of equality.

[Franz Fanonipants]

That obviously applies far more in the relation between those in the first world and those in the third world than it does between whites and blacks within the first world.

This would be true if you were an MTWist, but the thing is, you're dismissing a question about the connections between white supremacy and capitalism by painting it as ridiculous. Minimizing the connections between race and capitalism is pretty treacherous ground, and you're going to lose a lot of ability to deal with material conditions by simply dismissing any comrade who talks about there being a disparity based on race in America.

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

Who said there was no disparity?

[Franz Fanonipants]

Race =/= class.

Again, this is untrue. Racial oppression has a large component of class oppression tied into it.

I don't get why this is such an elusive concept.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Who said there was no disparity?

Your strawman MTWist portrayal of the OP did.

[RadioRaheem84]

If people don't believe in a white power structure that maintains itself through structural racism they should really come to South America. The US is just a snippet of the type of really blatant racism that structurally occurs in Latin America.

White people do have a privilege in American society (one that sometimes may not feel like one to working class whites), but it's not like it's really all that beneficial.

...and many are not blind to it. Right wing people see it and staunchly defend it and think that anyone of color or of a left perspective will diminish their status.

Only in a society that depends on scraps for social mobility will white people think that structural racism is beneficial to them and will fight against it.

That is why educating white people on how they will, as a member of the working class, benefit ten fold more with it's demise is important.

It's the fear that they will have to endure what they put other races to endure that keeps them from racial/class solidarity.

Education is vital to breaking that fear and bringing races together to create a better social position for workers as a whole.

[Zav]

Education and exposure are great, but racism won't end until I don't have to check "Caucasian", "Indian", "Asian", etc. every time I fill out a form. Actually, I just check "Other" and fill in "None", but you get the point. I don't think that whites are a special class. That would seem to be the case primarily in the Americas and Europe, but it's not true everywhere, unlike the Bourgeois or the ruling class.

[daleckian]

I don't think that whites are a special class. That would seem to be the case primarily in the Americas and Europe, but it's not true everywhere, unlike the Bourgeois or the ruling class.

Actually, whites are a special class pretty much anywhere, even in non-white majority societies. name me JUST ONE country where whites aren't a special class.

Didn't you read anything Radioraheem just said?

[Tim Finnegan]

Education and exposure are great, but racism won't end until I don't have to check "Caucasian", "Indian", "Asian", etc. every time I fill out a form.
I think you've got those back to front.


Actually, whites are a special class pretty much anywhere, even in non-white majority societies. name me JUST ONE country where whites aren't a special class.
Not to be picky, but you're assuming that "whites" are universally considered a single, monolithic group, which is buying a bit too heavily into the American construction of race.

[RadioRaheem84]

Not to be picky, but you're assuming that "whites" are universally considered a single, monolithic group, which is buying a bit too heavily into the American construction of race.


Actually whites are considered less a monolithic group in the US than the rest of the world where white includes olive skinned caucasians and in some parts people of Indian descent.

The US has a very flat and rather supremacist characterization of white people where only Northern Europeans are generally considered really white.

[Tim Finnegan]

Actually whites are considered less a monolithic group in the US than the rest of the world where white includes olive skinned caucasians and in some parts people of Indian descent.

The US has a very flat and rather supremacist characterization of white people where only Northern Europeans are generally considered really white.
Oh, granted. My point was that "white" as an over-riding identity is not a universal feature of all societies. For example, in Kosovo, the divisions between Serbs, Albanians, and so forth are as deep as any between a general "white" group and any non-Europeans.

[Invader Zim]

Again, this is untrue. Racial oppression has a large component of class oppression tied into it.

I don't get why this is such an elusive concept.

Class is a form of social stratification defined by an individuals position in relation to the means of production. The 'race' of an individual does not disbar an individual from either being in a position of ownership of the means of production or from having to sell their labour. That does not imply that historical inequities do not mean that there is preponderance of individuals from specific ethnic and cultural backgrounds within certain classes, but it does not make those backgrounds 'classes'.


I don't get why this is such an elusive concept

What a patronising comment. Not to burst your bubble, but it isn't that your position is elusive or hard to grasp, the problem is that it is utter unadulterated bullshit.

[HEAD ICE]

comparing what was then considered a piece of property and 2/5 a human being to a free white man who has the privelidge to vote and own private property, even if in a bourgeois election and borgeouis society respectively, is absolutely disgusting. shame on you.

It seems some white "leftists" will go to just about any means to deny that they are members of a privileged class.

Anyone who is even marginally offended by what maldoror (which includes the dolts who preceded you) said should stop calling themselves a marxist at once. Stop feigning your stupid faux moral superiority. The analogy is as close to perfect as you can get. A slave and a wage worker are two types of persons who are strictly being considered for their class status. Fighting slavery by attacking the fact that the house negro receives a marginally greater amount of the crumbs from the exploiting class is a path to nowhere, as is the 'privilege' of the white proletariat.


Maldoror isn't white. He's just a part of the whitest tendency.

It's like the Martha's Vineyard of tendencies.

That's the spirit Franz, go talk down to those stupid brown people and go lead them to victory! Colored folk need a strong white leader of your obvious superior intellect to lead them.

[Tim Finnegan]

Anyone who is even marginally offended by what maldoror (which includes the dolts who preceded you) said should stop calling themselves a marxist at once. Stop feigning your stupid faux moral superiority. The analogy is as close to perfect as you can get. A slave and a wage worker are two types of persons who are strictly being considered for their class status. Fighting slavery by attacking the fact that the house negro receives a marginally greater amount of the crumbs from the exploiting class is a path to nowhere, as is the 'privilege' of the white proletariat.
I'm not sure if you actually understand the concept of white privilege.

[Franz Fanonipants]

That's the spirit Franz, go talk down to those stupid brown people and go lead them to victory! Colored folk need a strong white leader of your obvious superior intellect to lead them.

no mames pinche buey

[Franz Fanonipants]

Class is a form of social stratification defined by an individuals position in relation to the means of production. The 'race' of an individual does not disbar an individual from either being in a position of ownership of the means of production or from having to sell their labour. That does not imply that historical inequities do not mean that there is preponderance of individuals from specific ethnic and cultural backgrounds within certain classes, but it does not make those backgrounds 'classes'.

You're fucking stupid, bro, sorry.

The race of an individual has a lot to do with their position in a class-society. Maybe not in Wales, but the United States is basically thick on the ground w/it.

But I'm p. sure there are plenty of immigrants bossing you around every day, right? Living in the country whose capitalist development essentially created and enforced white supremacy while denying it exists is pretty fucking rich.

[Robocommie]

That's the spirit Franz, go talk down to those stupid brown people and go lead them to victory! Colored folk need a strong white leader of your obvious superior intellect to lead them.

lol Franz Fanonipants isn't white either. Ask maldoror.

[Franz Fanonipants]

lol Franz Fanonipants isn't white either. Ask maldoror.

left communism - the assumption of whiteness

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

It sounds like your calling all Caucasians racist to me.

Erm, not all caucasians, but certainly all white people. Existing power structures are racist, and all white people reap the benefits of it. White people can be anti-racist, but not non-racist. Until structural racism ceases to exist, white people will be racist.
At the same time, I do believe educating white people is important - but it is the responsibility of white people, not the responsibility of people of colour.

Given, this is an analysis that is specifically North American. When I say "white" I mean it as contextualized by whiteness and race as socially constructed and contingent.

[Invader Zim]

You're fucking stupid, bro, sorry.

The race of an individual has a lot to do with their position in a class-society. Maybe not in Wales, but the United States is basically thick on the ground w/it.

Well it's not me, Sunshine, but Karl Marx you're calling "fucking stupid, bro", after all it is his class analysis that I'm employing.



The race of an individual has a lot to do with their position in a class-society.

Which I never denied, in fact I explicity made precisely that point when I stated "That does not imply that historical inequities do not mean that there is preponderance of individuals from specific ethnic and cultural backgrounds within certain classes". Where you not paying attention or do you just have trouble keeping up? But regardless of the trend, it is not 'race' which defines 'class', it is the position of an individual in relation to the means of production that defines class.



But I'm p. sure there are plenty of immigrants bossing you around every day, right?

You do know this history of English colonialism, right? Wales is governed by an invading foreign entity.

[Franz Fanonipants]

But regardless of the trend, it is not 'race' which defines 'class', it is the position of an individual in relation to the means of production that defines class.

Ladies and gentlemen, marxism.

[Franz Fanonipants]

You do know this history of English colonialism, right? Wales is governed by an invading foreign entity.

No shit?

Almost like there's a cultural component to your class oppression.

[Invader Zim]

Jesus, I'm dealing with a troll, and a fucking ignorant one at that.


No shit?

Well, you just asked if "plenty of immigrants bossing you around every day, right" [sic]; a brief examination of the history of Wales would have quickly informed you that I live in a country where precisely that has occured, and that has fuck all to do with 'race'.

[Robocommie]

No shit?

Almost like there's a cultural component to your class oppression.

Almost like the English got the Welsh to do all the coal mining because, I dunno, capitalism hands out the shit jobs to those with the least power.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

almost like the english got the welsh to do all the coal mining because, i dunno, capitalism hands out the shit jobs to those with the least power.

Foucaultian pomo gibberish.

[Tim Finnegan]

Well, you just asked if "plenty of immigrants bossing you around every day, right" [sic]; a brief examination of the history of Wales would have quickly informed you that I live in a country where precisely that has occured, and that has fuck all to do with 'race'.
You don't think that the history of ethnic oppression in Wales has had anything to do with ethnicity? :confused:

[black magick hustla]

im so excited, now i am accused of uncletomming or whatever. y'all can eat my dick.

idk why i am explaining to a bunch of thirdworldist college hipsters butr the comparison of the house negro had to do with the fact that malcolm x once gave a speech about how the house negro was different from the field negro, because the house negro loved his masters and had a better existence. the point here is that the house negro was as much of a slave as the field negro, and that there was no "privilege" - someone being more fucked than the other does not constitute privilege. both were socio economically slaves, period.

of course maoism is a completely anti working class ideology. imagine telling iranian socialists that they have to defend the state that murdered their comrades against imperialism or whatever. same logic with identity politics, i have more in common with white homebrother biting his nails off because he can't pay the bills, than the mexican ruling class.

the only good thing about being brown in the radical scene is that white hipsters can't guiltrip you so the only thing you can expect is that another brown kid accuses you of uncletomming, or like speedygonzaling or whatever.

[Invader Zim]

Almost like the English got the Welsh to do all the coal mining because, I dunno, capitalism hands out the shit jobs to those with the least power.

This comment lacks any coherant analysis. Firstly, mining in the British isles was not restricted to Wales, and the Welsh were not the sole group who worked in the pits and Silver-Lead mines. Secondly, while the job was doubtless arduous and dangerous, it was, when compared to a great many other tasks performed by the British industrial proletariat, relatively lucrative. The assumption is also that the Welsh aristocracy and bourgeoisie did not collaborate with their English counter-parts and exploit their own people, which they manifestly did. The exploitation of Welsh workers has a lot less to do with nationality as it does to do with class.

[Invader Zim]

You don't think that the history of ethnic oppression in Wales has had anything to do with ethnicity? :confused:
Partly, but it has a lot more to do with economics. Ultimately the reason the Welsh working classes were oppressed was because it was financially beneficial for the bourgeoisie in England, and Wales, to exploit them. The sneering attitude of the English upper classes to the Welsh working classes was derived from that and not the other way round.

[Tim Finnegan]

im so excited, now i am accused of uncletomming or whatever. y'all can eat my dick.

idk why i am explaining to a bunch of thirdworldist college hipsters butr the comparison of the house negro had to do with the fact that malcolm x once gave a speech about how the house negro was different from the field negro, because the house negro loved his masters and had a better existence. the point here is that the house negro was as much of a slave as the field negro, and that there was no "privilege" - someone being more fucked than the other does not constitute privilege. both were socio economically slaves, period.
I don't think you understand the use of the term "privilege", in this sense. It refers to a relative social preference, not an absolute material advantage.


This comment lacks any coherant analysis. Firstly, mining in the British isles was not restricted to Wales, and the Welsh were not the sole group who worked in the pits and Silver-Lead mines. Secondly, while the job was doubtless arduous and dangerous, it was, when compared to a great many other tasks performed by the British industrial proletariat, relatively lucrative. The assumption is also that the Welsh aristocracy and bourgeoisie did not collaborate with their English counter-parts and exploit their own people, which they manifestly did. The exploitation of Welsh workers has a lot less to do with nationality as it does to do with class.
Then what was with the whole "forcible suppression of Welsh language and culture" thing? Sounds like ethnic cleansing where I'm from. Where they also tried it. Because they were dicks like that.

[Robocommie]

Foucaultian pomo gibberish.

Indeed, all that garbage about division of labor IS Foucault!

[Robocommie]

This comment lacks any coherant analysis.

I love how into yourself you are.

[9]

Not to derail what is obviously a very fruitful discussion, but I gotta ask...


Actually whites are considered less a monolithic group in the US than the rest of the world where white includes olive skinned caucasians and in some parts people of Indian descent.

The US has a very flat and rather supremacist characterization of white people where only Northern Europeans are generally considered really white.

Uh what? :confused:

I have no idea what you mean by "only Northern Europeans are considered white"...? Do you mean only people of Northern European descent? Because that's definitely not the case; I mean, somebody whose great, great, great grandparents came here from Spain or Italy is definitely not regarded as being any less 'white' than someone whose great, great, great grandparents came here from Sweden.

Also, which "olive-skinned caucasians" aren't considered 'white' in the US...? I live in the US and I have olive complexion, but I'm definitely 'white'... and afaik so are most people with olive complexion.

[Robocommie]

Also, which "olive-skinned caucasians" aren't considered 'white' in the US...? I live in the US and I have olive complexion, but I'm definitely 'white'... and afaik so are most people with olive complexion.

But do people always assume you are, and treat you as though you are? I mean, a core element of American national identity has always been Anglo-Saxon ancestry, and the ease with which immigrants have been able to assimilate into American society is the extent to which they can simply lose their accents and their old customs and appear to BE Anglo-Saxon. I mean, surely you can't deny the racial slurs about "greasy Italians" that have been around since the first major waves of immigration.

[Invader Zim]

Then what was with the whole "forcible suppression of Welsh language and culture" thing?

Actually, this was far less pronounced than modern Welsh nationalists would have us believe, and certainly also less pronounced than what occurred in Ireland. Welsh nationalists such as Gwynfor Evans point as far back as the Acts of Union in 1535 as the beginnings of a legislatative assault on Welsh language and culture, but the reality is that Welsh was disbarred from appearing on legal and official documentation because it was inconvenient, not out of vindictiveness. Additionally, some of the more active assaults on the language and culture were, in my opinion, a result of an attempt to quell popular unrest. It was assumed that there was a link between the language and culture and civil disobedience. Of course there was a considerable degree of ‘collaborationism’, the Welsh for a great period of history were highly conservative and pro-Monarchy, presumably in an attempt to gain greater favour with Westminster. This was certainly true of the upper classes, the Acts of Union were largely a result of Welsh petitions, by those Welsh aristocrats who saw favour in a closer link to London. Indeed, my own grandfather failed to teach his children Welsh because he believed that the language was unnecessary in the modern world, and that was, unfortunately, a very common attitude.

But ultimately all these points find their origins in economic realities.


I love how into yourself you are.

And I love that your condecending arrogance is only surpassed by your ignorance.

[Robocommie]

And I love that your condecending arrogance is only surpassed by your ignorance.

I aim to please! :)

[Franz Fanonipants]

words

whoa bro we're still cool i'm just making fun of you for belonging to the only tendency in marxism that would probably hop on board the eugenics train, cus, well, that's how the 19th century did it!

p.s. i don't think you're an uncle tom bro its cool

[RadioRaheem84]

Not to derail what is obviously a very fruitful discussion, but I gotta ask...



Uh what? :confused:

I have no idea what you mean by "only Northern Europeans are considered white"...? Do you mean only people of Northern European descent? Because that's definitely not the case; I mean, somebody whose great, great, great grandparents came here from Spain or Italy is definitely not regarded as being any less 'white' than someone whose great, great, great grandparents came here from Sweden.

Also, which "olive-skinned caucasians" aren't considered 'white' in the US...? I live in the US and I have olive complexion, but I'm definitely 'white'... and afaik so are most people with olive complexion.

A lot of Americans, especially in the South tend to look at WASP-y Americans as really white (English, Irish, Dutch, German). Italians, Jews, Spaniards, Portuguese, so-so white, still ethnic.


Let Peter Griffin explain the silly American situation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paQnokH3Px4

[HEAD ICE]

I'm not sure if you actually understand the concept of white privilege.

Unfortunately, I'm probably a little too familiar with it. "White privilege" is an petit-bourgeois academic concoction that has little to do with class, or race for that matter. I haven't seen a single person who advocates it put forward anything beyond "show white people their privilege, and white people should recognize and unlearn their privilege", basically being a "race traitor" as a way to fight against it. Just goes to show why it has such popularity in amongst non-marxists and academia (which is anti-marxist to the core).

To Franz, sorry I assumed you are white. Just following the "if it walks and talks like a duck..." formula. My apologies.

[Tim Finnegan]

Unfortunately, I'm probably a little too familiar with it. "White privilege" is an petit-bourgeois academic concoction that has little to do with class, or race for that matter. I haven't seen a single person who advocates it put forward anything beyond "show white people their privilege, and white people should recognize and unlearn their privilege", basically being a "race traitor" as a way to fight against it. Just goes to show why it has such popularity in amongst non-marxists and academia (which is anti-marxist to the core).
Ah, now I am sure. Thanks. :thumbup1:

[Franz Fanonipants]

To Franz, sorry I assumed you are white. Just following the "if it walks and talks like a duck..." formula. My apologies.
forum poster Stagger Lee demonstrating Internet Edge

Anyways, the point is that race and economic reality are inseparable, no one is trying to say that white supremacy (you'll notice I didn't use the word privilege once, closet white supremacists) is anything but a capitalist construct. I don't even think OP would disagree with that.

[black magick hustla]

forum poster Stagger Lee demonstrating Internet Edge

Anyways, the point is that race and economic reality are inseparable, no one is trying to say that white supremacy (you'll notice I didn't use the word privilege once, closet white supremacists) is anything but a capitalist construct. I don't even think OP would disagree with that.

nobody is disagreeing that there is racism. But racism is a supestructural phenomenon. there is a reason why asians from backgrounds that are generally socioeconomically comfortable (indians, japanese, koreans) are not as fucked as mis carnales or whatever. indians do not come poor as fuck and crampled in the truck of a homebrother with a hat and a big belt buckle. in every space you have to address prejudiced comrades, regardless if they should know better (communists) or not (i do this all the time, even if i have to bite the bullet and be the party pooper or whatever). however, it is important to not lose the class perspective. it is important to not dilute your politics so that it fits the nationalist politics of the "opressed". the working class has no culture, i am not going to stand in defense of "my culture". also is a huge myth that most left communists are white. i think most organized left communists are actually not white. i think americans have a hard time understanding this because in the US the class is weak so there is a lot of lame, middle class nationalistic politics among "leftists" - a bunch of weirdos with sociology degrees writing queer/mexican/black/feminist/whatever manifestos. so unfortunately for our american pals, the idea that mexicans can organize along class line is alien to them. you obviously have to water down your politics to pander to middle class hobbies. i say middle class hobbies because all the fuckers that i know that are down with "protecting the culture" or who rail off about "privilege" or whatever are generally weirdos with non-marketable degrees.i think my average mexican friends actually could care less about that shit. i hate the word "privilege" because it implies white people are "favored" - i dont think they are favored i think they might just be a little less fucked. hence the comparison between the house and the field negro.

[Tim Finnegan]

I really think that there's a great deal of confusion on this board about what the concept of social privilege actually entails. It's a system of social preferencing, by which the (general) experience of a particular group is favoured and consequently normalised to the exclusion of others. It is not suggested to be the basis of racial oppression (or any other variety), but the means by which racial oppression sustains itself.

[black magick hustla]

I really think that there's a great deal of confusion on this board about what the concept of social privilege actually entails. It's a system of social preferencing, by which the (general) experience of a particular group is favoured and consequently normalised to the exclusion of others. It is not suggested to be the basis of racial oppression (or any other variety), but the means by which racial oppression sustains itself.
i think everybody knows this and tbh its more or less a truism. however, i've never seen someone with decent politics that rambles about privilege ever. most of them are down with like dumb ethnic nationalist groups under the pretense of "opressed nationalities" or engage in weirdo activisty insular rituals

[Magón]

Actually, whites are a special class pretty much anywhere, even in non-white majority societies. name me JUST ONE country where whites aren't a special class.

Didn't you read anything Radioraheem just said?

What kind of "special" do you mean? Because the closest country to me, and where I'm from, that I can say whites probably wouldn't consider themselves so special, is Mexico proper (not the club/resort cities, because no matter your color, you're "special" there.) In Mexico, drug cartels love White people, and often kidnap them for high stakes ransom money. So in actual Mexico, I wouldn't consider white people to be special.

[Franz Fanonipants]

In Mexico, drug cartels love White people, and often kidnap them for high stakes ransom money. So in actual Mexico, I wouldn't consider white people to be special.

hahahaha

that happens. all the time.

where do you live, fucking San Diego? and how much time have you spent in Mexico?

[Magón]

hahahaha

that happens. all the time.

where do you live, fucking San Diego? and how much time have you spent in Mexico?

I've lived in Mexico nearly my entire life, and have only lived in the US for eight. It's where I was born, where I grew up, and where I go to see friends and family that still live there.

Why's that important?

[Franz Fanonipants]

more words

Sorry, bro, I honestly can't agree with you and suspect your worldview is a result of the fucked up, reactionary, dishonest tendency that you've joined. I don't think that engaging with other aspects of class oppression (patriarchy, racism, etc.) is necessarily middle class.

Comprehending capitalism's multiple reasons for restricting access to the means of production is not wrong, nor is it all simplistic, bourgeoise pasttimes.

You need to not be a left com man. It's bad for you.

[Franz Fanonipants]

I've lived in Mexico nearly my entire life, and have only lived in the US for eight. It's where I was born, where I grew up, and where I go to see friends and family that still live there.

Why's that important?

I live in another border region, and I honestly have never heard anything about Americans being kidnapped as a regular feature of Mexican life.

Of gringo fears about Mexico, for sure, but not as an actual Thing.

[Magón]

I live in another border region, and I honestly have never heard anything about Americans being kidnapped as a regular feature of Mexican life.

Of gringo fears about Mexico, for sure, but not as an actual Thing.

I wasn't necessarily speaking about Americans, but white people in general. There's been countless reports in the years of white people being kidnapped in Mexico, not necessarily American.

[Franz Fanonipants]

I wasn't necessarily speaking about Americans, but white people in general. There's been countless reports in the years of white people being kidnapped in Mexico, not necessarily American.

So, lets think about the material conditions in play here it would seem that...

[Magón]

So, lets think about the material conditions in play here it would seem that...

:confused: You've never heard reports on people being kidnapped for example, around Mexican tourist destinations? Majority of them are going to be white.

[Ligeia]

:confused: You've never heard reports on people being kidnapped for example, around Mexican tourist destinations? Majority of them are going to be white.
And unlike most mexicans they can afford to take vacations and go to tourist destinations.

I think Franz is thinking about structural reasons here.

[Franz Fanonipants]

:confused: You've never heard reports on people being kidnapped for example, around Mexican tourist destinations? Majority of them are going to be white.

And not just American, WASP white either.

The point is, there's a reason why those people are kidnapped and its tied very clearly to the confluence of race and class in North America. Which I'm sure you recognize anyways.

And honestly, no, I don't often hear of Americans being kidnapped. I mean, Juarez is the closest big border city to me, so there's a lot of other things being focused on by the media here.

[Tim Finnegan]

i think everybody knows this and tbh its more or less a truism. however, i've never seen someone with decent politics that rambles about privilege ever. most of them are down with like dumb ethnic nationalist groups under the pretense of "opressed nationalities" or engage in weirdo activisty insular rituals
That's not really a substantial critique of the concept.

[Franz Fanonipants]

That's not really a substantial critique of the concept.

Leftcoms (or maybe just maldoror) like to turn groups like AIM, the Brown Berets, Young Lords, and Black Panthers into the villains of American history.

I think that's a part of the fact that Left Communism is super white. It's not necessarily malicious, just, you know, really invested in the capitalist's offered narratives of race and class.

[black magick hustla]

Sorry, bro, I honestly can't agree with you and suspect your worldview is a result of the fucked up, reactionary, dishonest tendency that you've joined. I don't think that engaging with other aspects of class oppression (patriarchy, racism, etc.) is necessarily middle class.


lol well i think we are hitting a wall here. i mean i am in a white tendency (btw this is pure slander) and you chill with middle class college white hipsters weirdos that wear hemp sandals and namedrop foucoult at the coffee shop. idk if this is promising at all anyway. we are just internetting at each other and i dont have more clever snide comments.

its more about people reading this i guess. as i said i don't disagree those things exist, but those things are correlated with class society. i don't think cultural politics have nothing to offer and cultural politics are very american because here we are all weak and defeated. i just want to say that your outlook is very national and there is a reason why nobody beyond the american border thinks like that. oh whelp, so is the effect of living at the center of the belly of the beast.

[Franz Fanonipants]

lol well i think we are hitting a wall here. i mean i am in a white tendency

yes

the rest of your post: the thing is, if an american marxist doesn't have a structural criticism of the united states from within then he's useless.

[black magick hustla]

invested in the capitalist's offered narratives of race and class.

this is interesting btw. the outlook you have is actually very mainstream in academia. i never hear a class perspective when i sit in a classroom, i hear more or less what you say. w/e broham your brothers can pay 100k so that someone talks to you about franz fanon. that shit is weak and its part of the the "capitalist discourse of race and class".

[Invader Zim]

Sorry, bro, I honestly can't agree with you and suspect your worldview is a result of the fucked up, reactionary, dishonest tendency that you've joined. I don't think that engaging with other aspects of class oppression (patriarchy, racism, etc.) is necessarily middle class.

Comprehending capitalism's multiple reasons for restricting access to the means of production is not wrong, nor is it all simplistic, bourgeoise pasttimes.

You need to not be a left com man. It's bad for you.

On the subject of dishonesty, I note you still have yet to produce a critique of marxist class analysis.

[black magick hustla]

yes

the rest of your post: the thing is, if an american marxist doesn't have a national material analysis he's fucking useless.
goddamn

[black magick hustla]

yes

the rest of your post: the thing is, if an american marxist doesn't have a structural criticism of the united states from within then he's useless.
....or if an american is too american then that says more about the weakness of the class than their politics. its kindof like how the size of the tea party or that people think socialism is a swear word says more about the weakness of the class (as do nationalistic politics).

[Franz Fanonipants]

On the subject of dishonesty, I note you still have yet to produce a critique of marxist class analysis.

What the fuck?

[black magick hustla]

w/e bailing out of this american shithole got a job offer in canada

[Franz Fanonipants]

w/e bailing out of this american shithole got a job offer in canada

dumbass leftcom gonna just go support capitalism in another country.

[Franz Fanonipants]

i never hear a class perspective when i sit in a classroom

Thats because your tendency has a real problematic idea about what's class, what isn't, and how material analysis works

e. i'm not saying we all have to be bell hooks because ff that but you're needlessly narrow and self-congratulatory about it.

[Invader Zim]

What the fuck?

Marx clearly defines what class is, and he suggests that a form of social stratification defined by an individuals relationship to the means of production. As shown race does not necessarily disbar any individual from occupying any position within this model of society. Sure it can influence where an individual is likely to be, but it does not guarantee their position and nor does it necessarily prevent upward - or downward - social mobility.

Therefore your position that race is an actual social class is clearly based on a different social model to the one Marx proposed. So where do you think marxist social analysis is either wrong or in need of qualification?

It is a simple enough question, perhaps you will grace us with a responce - other than your now tedious one line troll posts?

[Franz Fanonipants]

As shown race does not necessarily disbar any individual from occupying any position within this model of society.

You fucking dummy, neither does class origin.

Theoretically any member of the proletariat can become a shop boss (not to mention CEO). Does that disqualify class as a level of class analysis?

[Tim Finnegan]

You fucking dummy, neither does class origin.

Theoretically any member of the proletariat can become a shop boss (not to mention CEO). Does that disqualify class as a level of class analysis?
I think that you may be conflating sociological class with economic class. The former, like race, is a social construct, but the latter is an objective economic condition. They're not really the same sort of category at all.

[Franz Fanonipants]

I think that you may be conflating sociological class with economic class. The former, like race, is a social construct, but the latter is an objective economic condition. They're not really the same sort of category at all.

I'm not sure. Being born proletarian doesn't really ensure a lifelong membership in the economic working class.

While I can see how there is a difference, I'm not sure if that reverses the broader point.

[Invader Zim]

You fucking dummy, neither does class origin.

Theoretically any member of the proletariat can become a shop boss (not to mention CEO). Does that disqualify class as a level of class analysis?

Economic class is not defined by an individuals origins. No rightminded person suggests that an individuals relationship to the means of production cannot change. Class is based on an individuals material relationship to the means of production. That allows for both upwards and downwards mobility. Class is based on a persons material position, not what they used to be, could be or should be, or the socialy constructed stereotype of how an individual from a certain back ground should be. It is a material reality. Just because an individual is born to a family of farmers, and brought up in an impoverished rural enviroment, does not imply that the individual will forever remain a part of that community. For example, would you count Henry Ford as a member of the industrial bourgeoisie or a rural surf?

You're the fucking dummy here, Sunshine.

[Franz Fanonipants]

words

exactly my fucking point.

since race also does not preclude social mobility, what the fuck are you even talking about.

[Invader Zim]

exactly my fucking point.

since race also does not preclude social mobility, what the fuck are you even talking about.

I'm talking about the reality of a material reality of economic class and how it is distinct from the social construction that is race.

The fact that you don't get it speaks volumes, and suggests you should get your ass back to the learning forum where you belong, while we adults talk.

Jog on, Sunshine.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Race is a component of the material reality of class, or rather, a rationale for maintaining class division. Who said anything different?

I think either you're fucking dumb or deliberately being obtuse because this argument isn't really necessary.

[bots]

http://www.youtube.com/ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLZFnotlTmc)watch?v=wLZFnotlTmc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLZFnotlTmc)

yeah whatever

[Invader Zim]

Race is a component of the material reality of class, or rather, a rationale for maintaining class division. Who said anything different?

I think either you're fucking dumb or deliberately being obtuse because this argument isn't really necessary.


No relationship to the means of production is the sole component which defines class. Race, as a social construct, may be a factor in determining why an individual holds a particular position in this relationship, but it is not a class in of itself and nor does it define that relationship.

Thus race is not class.

[Franz Fanonipants]

No relationship to the means of production is the sole component which defines class. Race, as a social construct, may be a factor in determining why an individual holds a particular position in this relationship, but it is not a class in of itself and nor does it define that relationship.

Thus race is not class.

Who said it was?

[Lucretia]

"Whites" do not constitute a class. Neither do women. There are black female capitalists, black male workers, black male capitalists, white male capitalists, white female capitalist, white female workers, etc, etc. Gender and race cut across class divides. Such categories can affect the price of workers labor power, and it can provide some benefits, monetary or otherwise, to white/male capitalists, but that does not mean all men or women or black people or white people are distinct classes.

[Robespierre Richard]

Does this thread still suck?

Okay just checking.

[daleckian]

Of random note but related to interest is the point I reiterate, that Eastern Europeans and people from the Balkans seem to fit into a "non-white" category these days in most of Western Europe, and a "white, but not white enough" category in the United States.

take for example, in Eastern Europe, the huge rise in hate crimes against Russians and Polish people in the UK:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/news/crime-courts/panic-as-anti-polish-hate-crime-sweeps-scotland-1.1076477

This doesn't happen to "white" people unless they're considered a step below white, or non-white period (i.e, Jews, Central asians, etc.). That's why I don't include Eastern Europeans in the same class of "white privelidge" since they seem to be as persecuted in Europe as the Mexicans in the United States are, and in the US, they are usually lumped with asians and with asian stereotypes, plus additional stereotypes of criminality and shadiness in general. I mean, whenever there is a movie or a poor immigrant from Europe, where does he come from?

where do you think most of the stereotypes from Borat came from? who has their women shipped overseas to be married to rich westerners?

that's why I don't include Eastern Europeans in the modern definition of what constitutes whiteness, personally speaking.

[RadioRaheem84]

Racism is definably a social structure that is class based. Every society has their own ways of implementing structural racism.

For instance, a Pole may be seen as an ordinary white man with all the privileges of white people in the States but in Europe, Polish people are seen as menial laborers.

I remember a Dutch colleague of mine saying that no one in Holland would purchase a popular brand of bottled water called Poland Springs because everything Polish in the Netherlands is seen as "Ghetto".

He said the same of Moroccans and Arabs.

Arabs are also seen as menial laborers in Europe, but a lot of Arabs look down on Indians and Pakistanis who do a lot of the menial labor in richer Arab nations. I cannot tell you the countless times I was with Arabs and the jokes they would crack about Indians and Pakistanis were too much to count.

In the States, they're (Indians) seen as a rather productive and upwardly mobile ethnic minority but in places like Saudi Arabia, UAE, etc. they're seen as servants.

In Latin America, there is a verifiable caste system with white or less mestizo looking Latinos dominating the top positions of power, media, finance and entertainment. While i the States and Europe, Latinos have made a name for themselves for being ethnically different and openly proud of their mestizo roots, in Latin America this is largely shunned.

So a person with a Polish last name can be a normal member of a white privileged class in the States, but be looked at as something less desirable in Europe.

An Indian can be looked at as being a bit higher class in Africa due to the large class of Indian business owners there, but be seen as a servant in places like the UAE, while looked at in the States as a productive member of the upwardly mobile working class.

Arabs, while overall seen as a boogeyman in the States, in Texas the big Arab population here is seen as being rich or upper middle class (while in NJ or MI, seen as working class). And in Europe seen as totally working class.

Then there is all the ethnic discrimination between the various Asian nationalities. Koreans and Japanese dislike each other (speaking in purely national propagandistic terms), the relationship between them being much like the relationship between the English and the Irish; the Korean seen as too slant eyed and a drunk.

I hear Asians speak so highly of the Japanese, how good looking, smart, talented, they are, etc. Asians look down on the poorer Asians like Filipinos, Thais, and Malay. Migrant workers from these nations are seen as low class in places like Japan and China.

All of this racism is explained in cultural ethnic ways and not in economic/socio-political terms that would explain why one ethnic group can appear high in one continent but totally discriminated against in another.

Race is class based. White people though dominate the super structure of racism around the world (especially the non-Caucasian) and tend to have less difficulty with structural racism.

[Tim Finnegan]

This doesn't happen to "white" people unless they're considered a step below white, or non-white period (i.e, Jews, Central asians, etc.). That's why I don't include Eastern Europeans in the same class of "white privelidge" since they seem to be as persecuted in Europe as the Mexicans in the United States are, and in the US, they are usually lumped with asians and with asian stereotypes, plus additional stereotypes of criminality and shadiness in general. I mean, whenever there is a movie or a poor immigrant from Europe, where does he come from?
In Britain, in particular, they've pretty much just slid their stereotypes of the Irish sideways to cover Poles. It's uncanny how seamless it's been, and how nobody seems to have noticed. :blink:

[human strike]

Revolution in terms of overthrowing capitalism or revolution in terms of negating capitalism? In terms of the latter I agree to an extent, however in terms of the former, which is what I suspect you meant, then no I disagree. I mean I don't think your logic is coorect and I guess more generally I don't accept that is how revolution works.

[daleckian]

In Britain, in particular, they've pretty much just slid their stereotypes of the Irish sideways to cover Poles. It's uncanny how seamless it's been, and how nobody seems to have noticed. :blink:

It's strange, since the concept of white privelidge is very different in Europe, as I never realized just how hateful Western Europeans are to Eastern Europeans:


Last year, in Aberdeen, there was a 57% rise in racist incidents recorded by the police. The biggest group of victims were Africans, closely followed by Eastern Europeans. This accords with research by the European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights which found that across the continent Central and Eastern Europeans are among the main victims of discrimination.

[TheCommonGood]

Racism is too hyped up. We need to simply curtail the idea of different ethnicity and races and force people to be color blind on a world-wide scale. If their is no race, no skin, color, no ethnicity, then the subject is no longer used and neither are the principles, ideas, ect. utilized by it or its ability to hold down the common man.

[Tim Finnegan]

e
Racism is too hyped up. We need to simply curtail the idea of different ethnicity and races and force people to be color blind on a world-wide scale. If their is no race, no skin, color, no ethnicity, then the subject is no longer used and neither are the principles, ideas, ect. utilized by it or its ability to hold down the common man.
"Colour-blindness" is the self-destruction of the anti-racist movement, an individualistic reaction to a feeling of impotence, a retreat from conflict. When you are blind to colour, you are blind to the effects of colour, and thus unable to address those effects; only through collective colour-conciousness has society ever made any meaningful advances, and only through colour-conciousness can society ever make any meaningful advances. What we want is a state of affairs in which there is quite simply nothing left to see; when blindness and concious are each equally impossible states.

Oh, and, incidentally? This stuff about the annihilation of ethnicity (a concept quite distinct from race)? That's ethnocide, and it's not a good thing. Would it be presumptuous, I wonder, to assume that you yourself are of a local dominant ethnicity, which is to say, among those who have nothing of themselves to lose from such a program?

[TheCommonGood]

e
"Colour-blindness" is the self-destruction of the anti-racist movement, an individualistic reaction to a feeling of impotence, a retreat from conflict. When you are blind to colour, you are blind to the effects of colour, and thus unable to address those effects; only through collective colour-conciousness has society ever made any meaningful advances, and only through colour-conciousness can society ever make any meaningful advances. What we want is a state of affairs in which there is quite simply nothing left to see; when blindness and concious are each equally impossible states.

Oh, and, incidentally? This stuff about the annihilation of ethnicity (a concept quite distinct from race)? That's ethnocide, and it's not a good thing. Would it be presumptuous, I wonder, to assume that you yourself are of a local dominant ethnicity, which is to say, among those who have nothing of themselves to lose from such a program?

If there is no color, there can be no effects directly attributed to it or because of it. I'm assuming that people would all simply disregard any ethnicity or race, as it wouldn't exist.

If we truly want to unify the world and bring it together, we need to disregard things such as race and ethnicity. Those concepts are imperialistic and need to be erased. Once that occurs, we will be one, rather then separate races and ethnicity competing for what we want.

I am actually mixed race. Also I would regard ethnocide as a positive thing, if it occurs on a massive complete, universal 100% scale.

Further the point of having something to lose from race shouldn't exist. If you have something to lose or gain, the effects of that will lead to racism of some sort. One should never gain or lose something based on their race or ethnicity in any circumstance. Because people are greedy, and wish to capitalize and take what they can get, any discriminatory methods they use to evaluate someone must be eliminated. (Race, ethnicity, class,ect. We are all one collective striving toward TOTAL Equality)

If you recognize color at all, you are simply contributing toward racism. You perceive someone, notice their color, and it ends up put into whatever judgment of them you may make. If their color/race is anyway recognized in your judgment of them, their race has then made a difference when it never should.

[Lucretia]

Racism is definably a social structure that is class based. Every society has their own ways of implementing structural racism.

For instance, a Pole may be seen as an ordinary white man with all the privileges of white people in the States but in Europe, Polish people are seen as menial laborers.

I remember a Dutch colleague of mine saying that no one in Holland would purchase a popular brand of bottled water called Poland Springs because everything Polish in the Netherlands is seen as "Ghetto".

He said the same of Moroccans and Arabs.

Arabs are also seen as menial laborers in Europe, but a lot of Arabs look down on Indians and Pakistanis who do a lot of the menial labor in richer Arab nations. I cannot tell you the countless times I was with Arabs and the jokes they would crack about Indians and Pakistanis were too much to count.

In the States, they're (Indians) seen as a rather productive and upwardly mobile ethnic minority but in places like Saudi Arabia, UAE, etc. they're seen as servants.

In Latin America, there is a verifiable caste system with white or less mestizo looking Latinos dominating the top positions of power, media, finance and entertainment. While i the States and Europe, Latinos have made a name for themselves for being ethnically different and openly proud of their mestizo roots, in Latin America this is largely shunned.

So a person with a Polish last name can be a normal member of a white privileged class in the States, but be looked at as something less desirable in Europe.

An Indian can be looked at as being a bit higher class in Africa due to the large class of Indian business owners there, but be seen as a servant in places like the UAE, while looked at in the States as a productive member of the upwardly mobile working class.

Arabs, while overall seen as a boogeyman in the States, in Texas the big Arab population here is seen as being rich or upper middle class (while in NJ or MI, seen as working class). And in Europe seen as totally working class.

Then there is all the ethnic discrimination between the various Asian nationalities. Koreans and Japanese dislike each other (speaking in purely national propagandistic terms), the relationship between them being much like the relationship between the English and the Irish; the Korean seen as too slant eyed and a drunk.

I hear Asians speak so highly of the Japanese, how good looking, smart, talented, they are, etc. Asians look down on the poorer Asians like Filipinos, Thais, and Malay. Migrant workers from these nations are seen as low class in places like Japan and China.

All of this racism is explained in cultural ethnic ways and not in economic/socio-political terms that would explain why one ethnic group can appear high in one continent but totally discriminated against in another.

Race is class based. White people though dominate the super structure of racism around the world (especially the non-Caucasian) and tend to have less difficulty with structural racism.

I don't know what you mean when you say that racism is "based" on class. Are you saying that races constitute distinct classes, which is false (at least in contemporary capitalist societies where members of the same race can easily be on opposing sides of class warfare). Or are you suggesting that racism is emergent from but not reducible to class exploitation, which I think is true?

[Tim Finnegan]

If there is no color, there can be no effects directly attributed to it or because of it. I'm assuming that people would all simply disregard any ethnicity or race, as it wouldn't exist.

If we truly want to unify the world and bring it together, we need to disregard things such as race and ethnicity. Those concepts are imperialistic and need to be erased.
Race, yes, but in what sense is ethnicity tied to imperialism? It's a rather different concept.


Once that occurs, we will be one, rather then separate races and ethnicity competing for what we want.
Why an't we "be one" while maintaing our ethnic identity? The most powerful expression of class solidarity in the 20th century, the International Brigades, was self-consciously diverse. Any equality which demands sameness is, in fact, nothing of the sort.


I am actually mixed race. Also I would regard ethnocide as a positive thing, if it occurs on a massive complete, universal 100% scale.
I wouldn't. I have no wish to become an Englishman- which, if we are honest to ourselves, is exactly what the dissolution of the Scottish people would mean in practice. You cannot disregard existing cultural privileges.


Further the point of having something to lose from race shouldn't exist. If you have something to lose or gain, the effects of that will lead to racism of some sort. One should never gain or lose something based on their race or ethnicity in any circumstance. Because people are greedy, and wish to capitalize and take what they can get, any discriminatory methods they use to evaluate someone must be eliminated. (Race, ethnicity, class,ect. We are all one collective striving toward TOTAL Equality)

If you recognize color at all, you are simply contributing toward racism. You perceive someone, notice their color, and it ends up put into whatever judgment of them you may make. If their color/race is anyway recognized in your judgment of them, their race has then made a difference when it never should.
What you're describing, here, is not a reality in which we live, but a reality in which you'd like to live: in which race is merely superficial, and in which racism is an individual malice that could be easily abandoned. It is not. It goes far, far deeper than that, and it has to be recognised fully and entirely for what it is, so that we can root it out once and for all- out of society, and out of ourselves. I cannot purge myself of whatever latent racism I possess by simply walking around and telling people that I'm "colour blind", any more than I can feed the hungry by simply telling them they've had quite enough to eat.

[RadioRaheem84]

Or are you suggesting that racism is emergent from but not reducible to class exploitation, which I think is true?

This.

[TheCommonGood]

Race, yes, but in what sense is ethnicity tied to imperialism? It's a rather different concept.

Follow the roots. Who are the people that have always emphasized ethnicity. Dished out privileges and discrimination because of it? It's a dangerous idea that has unfortunately destroyed the semblance of unity that we should be moving toward. Ethnicity has destroyed the working class, and is doing so even more now.



Why an't we "be one" while maintaing our ethnic identity? The most powerful expression of class solidarity in the 20th century, the International Brigades, was self-consciously diverse. Any equality which demands sameness is, in fact, nothing of the sort.

Equality isn't equality if we aren't all the same in every possible way. Diversity is a disease. It is created by capitalists, imperialists, and rich elitists to emphasize people's differences. It distracts them from the real issues at hand, and prevents their unity. It's a time held tactic.



I wouldn't. I have no wish to become an Englishman- which, if we are honest to ourselves, is exactly what the dissolution of the Scottish people would mean in practice. You cannot disregard existing cultural privileges.

If their is no ethnicity, there is no Scots and there are no English. There are no cultural privileges of any kind because their is no distinction to be made to bestow said privileges.

Existing cultural privileges have to be forgotten. Those who have been on the discriminating end, must move on for the greater collective good. If you must sacrifice the memory and the effects of previous discrimination so that unity can be achieved, then that is not only an important, but necessary sacrifice.

Who are you to stand in the way of unity and the true progression and equality of the common man, the working class? Elitist and imperialist propaganda is ingrained in many of your assumptions. You must rid yourself of them.



What you're describing, here, is not a reality in which we live, but a reality in which you'd like to live: in which race is merely superficial, and in which racism is an individual malice that could be easily abandoned. It is not. It goes far, far deeper than that, and it has to be recognised fully and entirely for what it is, so that we can root it out once and for all- out of society, and out of ourselves. I cannot purge myself of whatever latent racism I possess by simply walking around and telling people that I'm "colour blind", any more than I can feed the hungry by simply telling them they've had quite enough to eat.

IF we don't strive to make things reality, they never will become reality. If we ever want to solve the problems that are created by race, the notion itself must be eliminated.

If you can not purge yourself of racist notions, or the idea of race and ethnicity itself, I would suggest that you be re-educated. Hopefully in a better and ACHIEVABLE reality, the government would make sure to accomplish this.

Children who manifested these notions would be re-educated at a young age to rid these notions early on. If we aren't able to rid race and ethnicity in today's society, we will be able to eliminate it through the next generation by mandatory education to make sure that kids are taught the right assumptions and worldview.

IF the remaining parts of society can't forgo the notions of race and ethnicity I suggest the following VERY rough and badly in-need-of-modification ideas:

1. Re-education until individuals have proven that they no longer recognize race or ethnicity.
2. Exile of those still clinging to these thoughts from society.
3. Prison. Throw the like-minded together where they will eventually destroy each other through their capitalistic racist selves. In order to fund their prison costs, forced labor would be mandatory.
4. Execution? It's drastic, but unless we completely weed out those who propagate, suggest, and encourage dangerous ideas, notions, and ideals we will never be able to progress. Those who can't be re-educated will simply drag society down and continue to be part of the problem. To be realistic, sacrifices will have to be made for the good of society. The level of sacrifice would be debatable.

Thoughts?

[daleckian]

If we truly want to unify the world and bring it together, we need to disregard things such as race and ethnicity. Those concepts are imperialistic and need to be erased. Once that occurs, we will be one, rather then separate races and ethnicity competing for what we want.

I am actually mixed race. Also I would regard ethnocide as a positive thing, if it occurs on a massive complete, universal 100% scale.

before you go off saying Nationality and ethnicity is imperialist and reactionary:

http://www.marx2mao.com/Stalin/MNQ12.html


A nation is primarily a community, a definite community of people.

This community is not racial, nor is it tribal. The modern Italian nation was formed from Romans, Teutons, Etruscans, Greeks, Arabs, and so forth. The French nation was formed from Gauls, Romans, Britons, Teutons, and so on. The same must be said of the British, the Germans and others, who were formed into nations from people of diverse races and tribes.

Thus, a nation is not a racial or tribal, but a historically constituted community of people.

The words of Stalin.

[Rocky Rococo]

Actually it's white people's job to educate ourselves. That was Malcolm's POV, and the older I get the more certain I am right. White people will only be willing to let go of their racism when they get the cues from other white people that require it. While all of us as white people may benefit from the existing system, it needs no altruism on the part of most whites to reject and rebel against the system. For most of us white people, while we may be relatively privileged compared to most African-Americans, at the same time the screwing most of us get on basis of class gives us more than ample cause to rebel. Part of that process of rebelling and rejecting the ruling order is to deepend and strengthen our understanding of the special oppressions in society, racism, sexism, homophobia, and to learn to act always in support and solidarity with the specially oppressed.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Thoughts?

Prison for troublesome indians and blacks the end.

This is obviously fucking stupid.

p.s. people like you will never be able to actually connect with the working class.

[Robocommie]

I want to point out that TheCommonGood is a pretty obvious troll. Dude's had only 7 posts so far and they're all pretty much either ridiculously over-the-top MTWism or otherwise pointlessly inflammatory.

If he's not a troll then he's just an idiot.

[727Goon]

Franz Fanonipants went in.

[Franz Fanonipants]

I want to point out that TheCommonGood is a pretty obvious troll. Dude's had only 7 posts so far and they're all pretty much either ridiculously over-the-top MTWism or otherwise pointlessly inflammatory.

If he's not a troll then he's just an idiot.

or, like me, both lol

[Franz Fanonipants]

the best part is where it says that post was useful

[Robocommie]

the best part is where it says that post was useful

The forum lies