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Crux
19th March 2011, 02:42
Libya

No to Western military intervention

www.socialistworld.net, 18/03/2011
website of the committee for a workers' international, CWI
Victory to the Libyan revolution - Build an independent movement of workers and youth!
Robert Bechert, CWI
http://www.socialistworld.net/img/20110318Grafik3930994709678465695.jpg
The UN Security Council’s majority decision to enact a militarily-imposed ‘no-fly-zone’ against Libya, while greeted with joy on the streets of Benghazi and Tobruk, is in no way intended to defend the Libyan revolution. Revolutionaries in Libya may think that this decision will help them, but they are mistaken. Naked economic and political calculations lay behind the imperialist powers’ decision. It is not a lifeline that could ‘save’ the revolution, in the real sense of the word, against Gaddafi. Major imperialist powers decided that they wanted now to exploit the revolution and try to replace Gaddafi with a more reliable regime. However the Libyan foreign minster’s announcement of an immediate ceasefire has complicated imperialism’s position.

http://www.socialistworld.net/img/article/2011-03-18Grafik7046092920533586750.jpg
Faced with a rapid eastwards advance of Gaddafi’s forces, many in eastern Libya seized hold of the idea of a no-fly-zone to help stem this tide, but this is not the way to defend and extend the revolution. Unfortunately, the revolution’s initial drive towards the west, where two-thirds of Libyans live, was not based on a movement, built upon popular, democratic committees that could offer a clear programme to win support from the masses and the rank and file soldiers, while waging a revolutionary war. This gave Gaddafi an opportunity to regroup.
The growing support for a no-fly-zone was a reversal of the sentiment expressed in the English language posters put up in Benghazi, in February, declaring: “No To Foreign Intervention – Libyans Can Do It By Themselves”. This followed the wonderful examples of Tunisia and Egypt, where sustained mass action completely undermined totalitarian regimes. The Libyan masses were confident that their momentum would secure victory. But Gaddafi was able to retain a grip in Tripoli. This, at least, relative stabilisation of the regime and its counter-offensive led to a change in attitude towards foreign intervention that allowed the largely pro-Western leadership of the rebel ’Interim Transitional National Council’ to overcome youth opposition to asking the West for aid.
However, despite the Gaddafi regime’s blood-curdling words, it is not at all certain that its relatively small forces could have launched an all-out assault on Benghazi, Libya’s second largest city, with around a million living in its environs. A mass defence of the city would have blunted the attack of Gaddafi’s relatively small forces. Now, if the ceasefire holds and Gaddafi remains in power in Tripoli, a de-facto breakup of the country could occur, returning to something like the separate entities that existed before Italy first created Libya after 1912 and which Britain recreated in the late 1940s.

http://www.socialistworld.net/img/article/2011-03-18Grafik8093460205222203393.jpg Fighters in Benghazi

Whatever the immediate effect the ‘no fly zone’, any trust placed in either the UN or the imperialist powers threatens to undermine all the genuine hopes and aspirations of the revolution that began last month. This is because the powers that have imposed threatened military action are no friends of the Libyan masses. Until recently, they were quite happy to deal with, and pander to, the murderous Gaddafi ruling clique, to maintain a ‘partnership’, especially concerning Libya’s oil and gas industries. Indeed, the day after the UN took its decision, the Murdoch-owned Wall Street Journal lamented that “the close partnership between the Libyan leader Col. Muammar Gaddafi’s intelligence service and the CIA has been severed” (18 March, 2011). The Journal reported “according to a senior US official” the previous ‘partnership’ was “especially productive”.
Now, having lost former dictatorial allies Mubarak, in Egypt, and Ben Ali, in Tunisia, imperialism is trying to take advantage of the popular uprising in Libya to both refurbish its “democratic” image and to help install a more “reliable” regime, or at least a part of Libya. As before, North Africa and the Middle East, with its oil and strategic location, are of tremendous importance to the imperialist powers.



This reveals the absolute hypocrisy of the main imperialist powers, which have shamelessly supported repressive dictatorial regimes throughout the Middle East for decades. At the very same time that they were deciding the No Fly Zone, the same powers did absolutely nothing to prevent Saudi Arabia and its Gulf allies’ increasingly brutal suppression of the majority of the Bahraini population and their attempt to ferment sectarianism. Within 12 hours of the UN decision, the armed forces another regional ally, Yemeni, ally shot dead at least 39 protesters in the capital city, Sanaa. The UN was only able to take its decision on Libya because the Arab League supported a no fly zone, but of course these mainly reactionary rulers say nothing about repression in Bahrain, Yemen or other Arab countries.

http://www.socialistworld.net/img/article/2011-03-18Grafik3561803561546745598.jpg Gaddafi and Sarkozy in the past

Cameron and Sarkozy’s “concern” for Libya is at least partly motivated by domestic unpopularity and the hope that a foreign success will strengthen their standing. Cameron clearly hopes for a boost similar to that which Thatcher enjoyed after her victory in the 1983 Falklands war. But Thatcher achieved a quick military victory - the no fly zone operation will not will produce a similar military win. Sarkozy, after the disaster of his Tunisia policy that led to the resignation of the French Foreign Minister, needs a “success” to lift his low poll ratings as next year’s Presidential election looms closer.
Gaddafi zig-zags

Despite the imperialist powers’ recent rapprochement with Gaddafi, the tyrant always remained an unreliable ally. Throughout his nearly 42 years in power, Gaddafi zig-zagged in policy, sometimes violently. In 1971, he helped the Sudanese dictator, Nimeiry, crush a left coup that took place in reaction to the earlier suppression of the left, including the banning of the one-million member Sudanese communist party. Six years later, Gaddafi proclaimed a "people’s revolution" and changed the country’s official name from the Libyan Arab Republic to the Great Socialist People’s Libyan Arab Jamahiriyah. Despite the name change and the formation of so-called “revolutionary committees”, this was not genuine democratic socialism or a move towards it. The Libyan working people and youth were not running their country. Gaddafi remained in control. This was underlined by the increasingly prominent role that many of his children played in the regime.
Nevertheless, since 1969, on the basis of a large oil income and a small population, there was a big improvement in most Libyans’ lives, especially in education and health, which at least partly explains why Gaddafi still has some basis of support amongst the population. Even while there is growing opposition to the Gaddafi clique, especially amongst Libya’s overwhelmingly young and educated population, there is also fear about who might replace him and opposition to anything that smells of foreign rule. The revolutionaries’ widespread use of the old ruling monarchy’s flag was bound to alienate those who do not want to return to the past and was used by Gaddafi to justify his rule. Flying the old flag also risked alienating Libyans in the west of the country because the former king came from the east and had no historic roots in the area around Tripoli.
But these factors are not a complete explanation as to why Gaddafi was able, at least temporally, to stabilise his position. While there was a popular uprising in eastern Libya, Gaddafi was able to maintain his position in the west, where two-thirds of the population live, despite large protests in Tripoli and uprisings in Misrata, Zuwarah and a few other areas.
Role of the working class

Unlike in Egypt and Tunisia, the working class in Libya has not, so far, begun to play an independent role in the revolution. Furthermore, many workers in Libya are migrants who have fled the country in recent weeks.
The absence of a national focal point which, for example, the Tunisian UGTT trade union federation provided (despite its pro-Ben Ali national leadership), complicated the situation in Libya. The huge revolutionary enthusiasm of the population has not, so far, been given an organised expression. The largely self-appointed ‘National Council’ that emerged in Benghazi is a combination of elements from the old regime and more pro-imperialist elements. For example, the Council’s foreign spokesman, Mahmoud Jibril, the former head of Gaddafi’s National Economic Development Board, was described by the US Ambassador, in November 2009, as a “serious interlocutor who ‘gets’ the US perspective”.

http://www.socialistworld.net/img/article/2011-03-18Grafik3903120802846821363.jpg
It is easy for Gaddafi to present these people as a threat to Libyan living standards and agents of foreign powers. At the same time, this propaganda will have only a limited effect, as population’s living standards worsening and unemployment increased (standing at 10%) since from the end of the 1980s oil boom and the start of privatisation back in 2003.
Gaddafi’s use of the threat of imperialist intervention did gather some support and if the country becomes divided may gain more. How long this can sustain Gaddafi is another question. In addition to anti-imperialist rhetoric, Gaddafi made concessions to maintain support. Each family has been given the equivalent of $450. Some public sector workers have been given 150% wage increases and taxes and customs duties on food have been abolished. But these steps do not answer the demands for freedom or end the growing frustration of Libya’s youthful population, with an average age of 24, over the regime’s corruption and suffocating grip.
Around the world, millions of people follow, and are inspired by, the revolutions in North Africa and the Middle East. These events inspired protests against the effects of the continuing capitalist crisis in many countries. Some of those welcoming the revolutionary events in the region may support the UN’s ‘no fly zone’ but socialists argue that it is primarily made in the interests of the imperialist powers – the same powers that no nothing substantially to restrain the repressive actions of Gulf states against mass protests in their countries.
But what then can be done internationally to genuinely help the Libyan revolution? First of all, trade unions should block the export of Libyan oil and gas. Secondly, bank workers should organise the freezing of all the Gaddafi regime’s financial assets.
The ‘no fly zone’ will not automatically lead to the overthrow of Gaddafi, in fact, like Saddam Hussein, the Libyan leader could entrench his position for a time in those parts of the country he controls. As the experience of Egypt and Tunisia shows, the key to overthrow dictatorships is the movement of the working masses and youth.
A revolutionary programme

Thus the fate of the revolution will be decided inside Libya itself. Its victory requires a programme that can cut across tribal and regional divisions and unite the mass of the population against the Gaddafi clique and for a struggle for a better future.



A programme for the Libyan revolution that would genuinely benefit the mass of the population would be based on winning and defending real democratic rights; an end to corruption and privilege; the safeguarding and further development of the social gains made since the discovery of oil; opposition to any form of re-colonisation and for a democratically-controlled, publicly-owned, economic plan to use the country’s resources for the future benefit of the mass of people.
The creation of an independent movement of Libyan workers, poor and youth that could implement such a real revolutionary transformation of the country, is the only way to thwart the imperialists’ plans, end dictatorship and to transform the lives of the people.

khad
19th March 2011, 02:54
Are we kidding ourselves here? Does the CWI really believe that this pulp it churns out regularly has any bearing on events happening on the ground?

The rebel leadership wants foreign intervention.
The vast majority of the rebels want foreign intervention.

Deal with it.

Crux
19th March 2011, 03:02
Are we kidding ourselves here? Does the CWI really believe that this pulp it churns out regularly has any bearing on events happening on the ground?

The rebel leadership wants foreign intervention.
The vast majority of the rebels want foreign intervention.

Deal with it.
I see you are illiterate. Please spare me your "insights" in the future if this is the best you can do.
Unlike you we have political principles and responsebilities, while we do not have forces in Libya, yet, it is crucial that we have a principled position. I can see why you would have a hard time grasping that, given you can spout your opinions as you wish with really no relevance at all. We on the other hand are building a marxist organization.

Devrim
19th March 2011, 07:37
This is a pretty poor article, but at least it is against the imperialists intervention. Perhaps you should tell some of your own members about it:


Anyway, I'd rather have NATO shooting down Libya's air force than rebels risk their lives by using those AAA guns. Use them for armour, then leave the air force to NATO. I sure hope they use this to their advantage.

It sort of rambles through with no really attempt to understand the class forces involved:


Unfortunately, the revolution’s initial drive towards the west, where two-thirds of Libyans live, was not based on a movement, built upon popular, democratic committees that could offer a clear programme to win support from the masses and the rank and file soldiers, while waging a revolutionary war. This gave Gaddafi an opportunity to regroup.

Unfortunately? Do you think that these things might in some way not just be the result of chance, but directly related to the nature of the revolt itself, which as the article later gets round to saying:


Unlike in Egypt and Tunisia, the working class in Libya has not, so far, begun to play an independent role in the revolution. Furthermore, many workers in Libya are migrants who have fled the country in recent weeks.

And what is to happen in the future:


As the experience of Egypt and Tunisia shows, the key to overthrow dictatorships is the movement of the working masses and youth.

As the experience of Iraq and Afghanistan shows, the imperialist powers all fully capable of overthrowing dictatorships, and provided workers and peasants with years of civil war, and a descent into barbarism too.


Thus the fate of the revolution will be decided inside Libya itself.

So do you think that the current actions of the imperialists has nothing to do with it?


Its victory requires a programme that can cut across tribal and regional divisions and unite the mass of the population against the Gaddafi clique and for a struggle for a better future.

A programme for the Libyan revolution that would genuinely benefit the mass of the population would be based on winning and defending real democratic rights; an end to corruption and privilege; the safeguarding and further development of the social gains made since the discovery of oil; opposition to any form of re-colonisation and for a democratically-controlled, publicly-owned, economic plan to use the country’s resources for the future benefit of the mass of people.

Is this programme being advocated by anybody at all in Libya, or even likely to be?


The creation of an independent movement of Libyan workers, poor and youth that could implement such a real revolutionary transformation of the country, is the only way to thwart the imperialists’ plans, end dictatorship and to transform the lives of the people.

And pigs could fly. Wishing for a working class movement where none exists won't make it so.

Devrim

Threetune
19th March 2011, 13:26
I see you are illiterate. Please spare me your "insights" in the future if this is the best you can do.
Unlike you we have political principles and responsebilities, while we do not have forces in Libya, yet, it is crucial that we have a principled position. I can see why you would have a hard time grasping that, given you can spout your opinions as you wish with really no relevance at all. We on the other hand are building a marxist organization.

Ha, now you can try it with the rebel leaders you’ve been banging on about for weeks. Your anti- Gaddafi propaganda helped to pave the way for what’s coming. You are absolutely mired in this filth and all your wriggling squirming won’t get you out of it.

khad
19th March 2011, 13:34
I see you are illiterate. Please spare me your "insights" in the future if this is the best you can do.
Unlike you we have political principles and responsebilities, while we do not have forces in Libya, yet, it is crucial that we have a principled position.

I'm wondering you even understand how ridiculous you just made yourself look. So, even according to you, your precious CWI does nothing but engage in idealist wankery.

Lenina Rosenweg
19th March 2011, 16:50
Mayakovsky-excellent article. It provides the best analysis of the situation in Libya I've found so far.Wish I could thank the post many times. Neither the grumpy Stalinists nor left com rejectionists are thinking dialectically.

There obviously is a popular revolution against Qaddafi. Qaddafi obviously is a kleptocratic thug. That imperialism is doing everything it can to subvert and coopt the revolution is a no-brainer. The revolution against Qaddafi should be supported while western intervention should be opposed. Why is this so difficult to understand?

The overthrow of Qaddafi, if it happens, will be but the beginning stage of a long complex process of working class emancipation.

No to Qaddafi!
No to Western imperialism in Libya and the Middle East!
Yes to working class revolution everywhere!

Lenina Rosenweg
19th March 2011, 16:59
People who are completely cynical about the revolt in Libya do not place their trust in the working class.CWI articles have described the difference in the class composition of Libya versus Egypt/Tunisia. Yes middle class elements and former members of Qaddafi's inner circle are insinuating themselves into the rebel leadership. Quite obviously US, French impoerialism has their "irons in the fire". It is very possible there have been atrocities committed by rebel elements., This should not be excused.

But should thius mean support for a thuggish kleptocrat who has been fully embeded w/in imperialism for decades? Do you think the whole Libyan Revolution has been fabricated by Obama and George Soros? Its a very real revolution and should be supported. Its just one stage in a long struggle ahead.

The CWI is the most effective revolutionary organization that I know of.In some areas we are thin on the ground and we have a long viscous struggle ahead.

Threetune
19th March 2011, 17:25
Mayakovsky-excellent article. It provides the best analysis of the situation in Libya I've found so far.Wish I could thank the post many times. Neither the grumpy Stalinists nor left com rejectionists are thinking dialectically.

There obviously is a popular revolution against Qaddafi. Qaddafi obviously is a kleptocratic thug. That imperialism is doing everything it can to subvert and coopt the revolution is a no-brainer. The revolution against Qaddafi should be supported while western intervention should be opposed. Why is this so difficult to understand?

The overthrow of Qaddafi, if it happens, will be but the beginning stage of a long complex process of working class emancipation.

No to Qaddafi!
No to Western imperialism in Libya and the Middle East!
Yes to working class revolution everywhere!

Another intervention from planet idealism.

February 17th “The demands came in a statement signed by 213 prominent Libyans from different segments of the society, including political activists, lawyers, students, and government officials.” Aljazeera

The imperialists don’t need to “subvert and coopt the revolution” as you say, it has always been lead by reactionaries = Abdel-Hafiz Ghoqa, Fathi Turbel, Ali Al Issawi, Mahmood Jibril, Omar Al Hariri, and Abdel-Fattah Younis. Go and Google.

We assess a movement by its leadership, not simply by who is taking part. If it was a halfway socialist movement at all, do you think the imperialists of every stripe would be backing it? You plank.

Your slogans are a naive wish list at best. But you go ahead and enjoy yourselves fantasising after helping do the propaganda spade-work for imperialist attack.

Crux
19th March 2011, 18:07
Ha, now you can try it with the rebel leaders you’ve been banging on about for weeks. Your anti- Gaddafi propaganda helped to pave the way for what’s coming. You are absolutely mired in this filth and all your wriggling squirming won’t get you out of it.
I knew it was too much to expect someone like you to actually read the article. Please refrain from participating in discussions from now on, troll.

Khad:
Oh the irony, given the ever importance of your own "position". Okay let me rephrase it, we are an organization, we have members and sympathisers. It is crucial that we have a correct position on international events.

It's telling that neither of you two have dared to adress the actual article.

Crux
19th March 2011, 18:15
This is a pretty poor article, but at least it is against the imperialists intervention. Perhaps you should tell some of your own members about it:



It sort of rambles through with no really attempt to understand the class forces involved:



Unfortunately? Do you think that these things might in some way not just be the result of chance, but directly related to the nature of the revolt itself, which as the article later gets round to saying:



And what is to happen in the future:



As the experience of Iraq and Afghanistan shows, the imperialist powers all fully capable of overthrowing dictatorships, and provided workers and peasants with years of civil war, and a descent into barbarism too.



So do you think that the current actions of the imperialists has nothing to do with it?



Is this programme being advocated by anybody at all in Libya, or even likely to be?



And pigs could fly. Wishing for a working class movement where none exists won't make it so.

Devrim
"The absence of a national focal point which, for example, the Tunisian UGTT trade union federation provided (despite its pro-Ben Ali national leadership), complicated the situation in Libya. The huge revolutionary enthusiasm of the population has not, so far, been given an organised expression. The largely self-appointed ‘National Council’ that emerged in Benghazi is a combination of elements from the old regime and more pro-imperialist elements. For example, the Council’s foreign spokesman, Mahmoud Jibril, the former head of Gaddafi’s National Economic Development Board, was described by the US Ambassador, in November 2009, as a “serious interlocutor who ‘gets’ the US perspective”."

Perhaps the ICC has no members on the ground in Libya. We however believe that a genuine working class leadership can and should be created. And we will oppose military intervention.

Robespierre Richard
19th March 2011, 18:36
A comrade told me that he sees Trotskyism as basically two separate tendencies, one of social-democratic politics and the other of academic non-practice. This seems to be the latter.

Of course everyone here thinks that it would be great if there was a working-class revolutionary presence and all that, but it's not the case so we can't just roll on the ground going goo-goo gaa-gaa when things don't go our way, but rather pick a position and go with it.

Lenina Rosenweg
19th March 2011, 18:39
Another intervention from planet idealism.

February 17th “The demands came in a statement signed by 213 prominent Libyans from different segments of the society, including political activists, lawyers, students, and government officials.” Aljazeera

We assess a movement by its leadership, not simply by who is taking part. If it was a halfway socialist movement at all, do you think the imperialists of every stripe would be backing it? You plank.



We do not assess a movement solely by its leadership. What is important is the level of class struggle and class consciousness. The revolutions in Tunisia and Egypt were not "socialist" but were clearly led by the working class. The "Red Shirt" movement in Thailand was led by a telecommunications baron. It was a revolt against the Thai ruling class and should be critically supported.What is happening in the Middle East and North Africa is a complex process.

The European Revolutions of 1848, to which the Arab Revolution has been compared, had a working class base but were led by the bougoiuse.With some exceptions they were not socialist. Marx supported them.

Before a revolutionary leadership can be developed it is important to understand the situation.

"We can't support the Paris Commune. It was clearly created by the financial manipulations of George Soros. Yes it is a working class movement, but the are led by Prodhounists, who are reactionary petit bourgeois and are merely the left wing of capital."

Lenina Rosenweg
19th March 2011, 18:45
A comrade told me that he sees Trotskyism as basically two separate tendencies, one of social-democratic politics and the other of academic non-practice. This seems to be the latter.

http://www.socialistworld.net/

Does this sound like "academic non-practice"? What is the "Batman Party" involved in, comrade?


Of course everyone here thinks that it would be great if there was a working-class revolutionary presence and all that, but it's not the case so we can't just roll on the ground going goo-goo gaa-gaa when things don't go our way, but rather pick a position and go with it.

Correct and I choose to side with the working class.That's my position.You seem to enjoy trolling Trotskyists. You have nothing to back up any assertions.

Devrim
19th March 2011, 18:55
Perhaps the ICC has no members on the ground in Libya. We however believe that a genuine working class leadership can and should be created.

The ICC certainly has no members on the ground in Libya, just, as I would imagine like every other political group represented on here.

What does it mean though to suggest that a "working class leadership can and should be created"? How can it be created? Will it just emergence nebulously putting forward the Transitional programme.

What is the class nature of these events?


The absence of a national focal point which, for example, the Tunisian UGTT trade union federation provided (despite its pro-Ben Ali national leadership), complicated the situation in Libya. The huge revolutionary enthusiasm of the population has not, so far, been given an organised expression. The largely self-appointed ‘National Council’ that emerged in Benghazi is a combination of elements from the old regime and more pro-imperialist elements.

The, as you put it, "largely self-appointed national council" is its expression.


And we will oppose military intervention.

No, you will walk a fine line between 'opposing imperialist intervention' and backing the rebels, falling off it often with people backing the imperialists.


Mayakovsky-excellent article. It provides the best analysis of the situation in Libya I've found so far.Wish I could thank the post many times. Neither the grumpy Stalinists nor left com rejectionists are thinking dialectically.

Are you serious? I am not somebody who agrees with the CWI, but this does come across to me as a particularly poor article.

Devrim

Crux
19th March 2011, 18:57
A comrade told me that he sees Trotskyism as basically two separate tendencies, one of social-democratic politics and the other of academic non-practice. This seems to be the latter.

Of course everyone here thinks that it would be great if there was a working-class revolutionary presence and all that, but it's not the case so we can't just roll on the ground going goo-goo gaa-gaa when things don't go our way, but rather pick a position and go with it.
No, sadly that is not "of course" as has been proven time and time again.
So when we are right you call it "academic non-practice"? Fascinating. So you are unable to give any critique of our actual psoition? Frankly I couldn't care lessabout what "your comrade" thinks of trotskyism.

Devrim
19th March 2011, 19:00
We do not assess a movement solely by its leadership. What is important is the level of class struggle and class consciousness. The revolutions in Tunisia and Egypt were not "socialist" but were clearly led by the working class.

So what is ' level of class struggle and class consciousness' in Libya because I can't see anything that makes me think there is any class content at all?

Devrim

Robespierre Richard
19th March 2011, 19:02
No, sadly that is not "of course" as has been proven time and time again.
So when we are right you call it "academic non-practice"? Fascinating. So you are unable to give any critique of our actual psoition? Frankly I couldn't care lessabout what "your comrade" thinks of trotskyism.

How sad, RevLefters undermining the course of history. :(

And yes it's academic non-practice because no one in Libya will even read this so when you read this, the first thought that pops into your head is "are these guys morons"? Maybe some alternative mindset makes you do fist pumps and repost this everywhere though, I don't know.

Crux
19th March 2011, 19:08
What is the class nature of these events?
A revolt in response to longstanding corruption as well as the latest food prize rises. Are you saying there are not legitimate grievances?

Crux
19th March 2011, 19:10
How sad, RevLefters undermining the course of history. :(

And yes it's academic non-practice because no one in Libya will even read this so when you read this, the first thought that pops into your head is "are these guys morons"? Maybe some alternative mindset makes you do fist pumps and repost this everywhere though, I don't know.
For you maybe. And unlike you we are actually present and active in the real world, hence the need for a real position. Your opinion is hardly relevant nor does it constitute any serious critique.

Lenina Rosenweg
19th March 2011, 19:12
So what is ' level of class struggle and class consciousness' in Libya because I can't see anything that makes me think there is any class content at all?

Devrim

We don't know. The CWI article says this.It is important to find this out.The semi-Stalinist system created under Qaddafi has inhibited independent working class movements and class consciousness.It is glaringly obvious that a majority of the population hates Qaddafi.Some of the opposition to Qaddafi may be tribally based but that should not minimize it.

Socialists should support the revolt, attempt to identify working class formations, and try to provide perspective on the best way forward.

It does not seem logical that people at Davos , or the G& or G12 or whatever, said "Its time for Qaddafi to go" and instigated the revolt.It may very well have begun with middle class elements. This does not minimize its significance.

SocialismOrBarbarism
19th March 2011, 19:12
I'm not sure why it would matter if they didn't have any comrades in Libya or if no one from Libya even read it. Do you seriously think this issue is of interest to no one but Libyans?

Robespierre Richard
19th March 2011, 19:14
For you maybe. And unlike you we are actually present and active in the real world, hence the need for a real position. Your opinion is hardly relevant nor does it constitute any serious critique.

Your ad-hominems aside, this is not an analysis piece, it's a persuasive piece, so I critique it as such. Also, where is Trotskyism present outside the realm of social-democratic politics exactly?

Lenina Rosenweg
19th March 2011, 19:16
People in the Middle East, including working class people, do have Internet access.The bourgeois media focuses on the "Twitter Revolution". Well, this works for socialists as well. Stuff gets read.

Lenina Rosenweg
19th March 2011, 19:18
Your ad-hominems aside, this is not an analysis piece, it's a persuasive piece, so I critique it as such. Also, where is Trotskyism present outside the realm of social-democratic politics exactly?

Where is the Batman Party outside the realm of Internet trolling?

Robespierre Richard
19th March 2011, 19:21
Where is the Batman Party outside the realm of Internet trolling?

It's on the ground in Libya agitating and organizing the proletariat into soviets to crush the reactionaries after Qadaffi falls and preparing structures for the Permanent Revolution of course. Why do you ask?

Devrim
19th March 2011, 19:28
A revolt in response to longstanding corruption as well as the latest food prize rises. Are you saying there are not legitimate grievances?

I say that these are obviously amongst the things that influenced the revolt, but if you look at its direct causes it started with protests about the arrest of an Islamicist group's lawyer. That is what it was in response to.

Poverty isn't that general in Libya, like in Tunisia or Egypt. If you had checked the CIA world fact book last week, it had the number of people living in poverty in Libya at just over 7%. This has since been removed and been replaced with a 'not applicable' and a vague statement that a third of the Libyan population live in poverty. Possibly because it compared pretty well with the USA's 12%.



So what is ' level of class struggle and class consciousness' in Libya because I can't see anything that makes me think there is any class content at all?We don't know. The CWI article says this.It is important to find this out.The semi-Stalinist system created under Qaddafi has inhibited independent working class movements and class consciousness.

So there is no evidence of a class movement whatsoever?


It is glaringly obvious that a majority of the population hates Qaddafi.

I am not sure of this. It is clear that a large part of the population hates him. I don't know if it is a majority and don't think it is. It isn't 'glaringly obvious' though.

Queercommie Girl
25th March 2011, 16:47
I don't agree with the CWI stance on Libya completely, of course, but at least the CWI is not like some other parties like the AWL or the NPA in France which are actively and explicitly supporting Western intervention in Libya.

I say strategically all genuine socialists should conditionally co-operate with parties like the CWI to isolate, alienate and literally bash parties like the AWL.

As Mao once said: "have solidarity with the genuine left, co-operate with the middle, and alienate the right".

Here is an article on the imperialist tool-bag NPA, from the ICFI:

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/mar2011/nacp-m25.shtml

Something else on Libya:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/mar/25/libya-remembers-bombs-not-first

Lacrimi de Chiciură
25th March 2011, 17:32
I don't agree with the CWI stance on Libya completely, of course, but at least the CWI is not like some other parties like the AWL or the NPA in France which are actively and explicitly supporting Western intervention in Libya.

I say strategically all genuine socialists should conditionally co-operate with parties like the CWI to isolate, alienate and literally bash parties like the AWL.

As Mao once said: "have solidarity with the genuine left, co-operate with the middle, and alienate the right".

Here is an article on the imperialist tool-bag NPA, from the ICFI:

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/mar2011/nacp-m25.shtml

Something else on Libya:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/mar/25/libya-remembers-bombs-not-first

I don't understand why some small left-groups think that lying about the positions of other left-groups will advance their own position. The article "France's NPA backs war on Libya" is simply disinformation. A quick look at the NPA's website indicates otherwise:

http://www.npa2009.org/content/communiqu%C3%A9-du-npa-soutien-au-peuple-libyen-contre-la-dictature


Our full solidarity goes in its entirety to the Libyan people to whom it would be necessary to give the means of defending themselves, arms which they need to throwout the dictator, to obtain liberty and democracy. That is not the objective of the decisions of the UN and the military coalition led by France and England which lends itself to the intervention in Libya. The same who said nothing against the intervention of Saudi troops against the revolt in Bahrain. The imperialist powers want to seize the occasion that the madness of the dictator provided them with to try to retake control of the region, rich in oil, all in giving itself the role of defender of the people.

How can one give some certificate of humanitarian sincerity to the French government which for the last 3 months has shown no solidarity with the popular uprisings and revolutions going on in the Maghreb and Mashriq? How can one forget a half-century of the great powers' support for the most bloody dictatorships. From Kosovo to Afghanistan, passing by Iraq, the long list of imperialism's interventions under the pretext of humanitarianism have done nothing but aggravate the local situations. Military intevention is not the solution and the NPA squares up against the new military escalation that approaches, against the imperialist aims for control of the region and against meddling in the ongoing revolutionary process. The NPA reaffirms its support of the Libyan insurgents against the dictatorship as in the Tunisian and Egyptian revolutions.


WSWS uses the first sentence of this communique as "evidence" of NPA's support for imperialist intervention, neglecting literally every sentence after that which clarifies that their position is exactly the opposite of the slanderous strawman being put forward by WSWS. The real tool of imperialism here is the phony journalism and sectarianism of WSWS/SEP which damages the prospects for solidarity across the left. Genuine revolutionary socialists don't deliberately spread lies to undermine the efforts of socialists to clarify an anti-imperialist perspective. It is pathetic how sectarian groups use events in Libya to attack the left. These hypocrites do the CIA's job for them.

Also, maybe you weren't aware that Gauche Révolutionnaire (the CWI in France) operates as a current within the NPA.
http://blog.ascentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/The_More_You_Know-300x197.jpg

Queercommie Girl
27th March 2011, 17:23
There is nothing really good about the NPA. While it's not exactly reactionary to apologise for them, it's certainly misguided. I'm not even a CWI member, only a critical supporter, but as far as I know the leading core of the CWI is generally very critical of the NPA formation.

It's more than just their stance on the international level, it's also their domestic policy. The NPA collaborates with the trade union bureaucracy against rank-and-file workers.