The new Isreali Left

[RGacky3]

An interesting article in the nation about the Isreali left supporting the palestinian cause. (http://www.thenation.com/article/159164/new-israeli-left)

[danyboy27]

at fucking last.

[RGacky3]

This sort of thing has been going on for a while, a lot of Isrealis support the palestinian cause.

[danyboy27]

This sort of thing has been going on for a while, a lot of Isrealis support the palestinian cause.

but..but...revleft say israeli people are all imperialist and deserve to be kille by rocket made of car spare part.....

i am confused.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Mavaak is the CWI section in Israel. As I understand its an organization with an intense commitment from its comrades and agressively fights religious and ethnic sectarianism.

The site is in Hebrew and Arabic. There are supposed to be English and Russian language links on the site but they don't always work.

http://maavak.org.il/maavak/

[RGacky3]

but..but...revleft say israeli people are all imperialist and deserve to be kille by rocket made of car spare part.....

i am confused

No they don't, they say the Ireali State is imperialist, and no one says they deserved to be killed by rockets.

[danyboy27]

No they don't, they say the Ireali State is imperialist, and no one says they deserved to be killed by rockets.

yea i know i was just messing around a bit. There are a fews number of revlefter who think israeli civilian deserve to die tho.

[RGacky3]

There are a fews number of revlefter who think israeli civilian deserve to die tho.

And there are some that think Stalin and Mao were nothing more than victims of circumstance, but they are clowns :).

[Milk Sheikh]

yea i know i was just messing around a bit. There are a fews number of revlefter who think israeli civilian deserve to die tho.

I don't think anyone thinks that. But many of them are rightly offended that an Israel's death, even a soldier's death, is given more attention than that of a Palestinian civilian.

[danyboy27]

And there are some that think Stalin and Mao were nothing more than victims of circumstance, but they are clowns :).

yea i know, i was just messing around a bit :D

[danyboy27]

I don't think anyone thinks that. But many of them are rightly offended that an Israel's death, even a soldier's death, is given more attention than that of a Palestinian civilian.

i have been around longer than you bro, there are people like that on this website.

Hell there are people supporting Kim jong ill and Mao.

but i digress, lets get back to the main topic.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

The kililng of Israeli civilians plays into the hands of the Israeli rightists.

The Nakba was a crime against humanity and a tremendous tragedy for those involved. On the other hand there is today an Isreali Jewish working which is exploited. Maavak-whose members are Jewish and Arab, supports a two state solution leading to a one state solution. I had my qualms about this at first but it does make sense.

[masty]

I really don't believe in that drive-them-into-the-sea stuff. Israelis and Palestinians should live in one bigass state together in harmony forever. But of course the Israeli settler class is much too enamored of its apartheid privileges to ever let that happen, and the Palestinians can't be kept down forever, so eventually a lot of Israelis are going to get iced, and some of them will not be carrying weapons at the time of their icing. That doesn't really make them 'civilians' though. The notion that a state literally founded on plunder and genocide and maintained via a gigantic violent bureaucracy can contain "civilians" in any useful sense of the term is pretty absurd. Certainly Israel doesn't treat the Palestinian nation as if it contains anyone other than inveterate terrorists. And certainly the perpetual militarization and colonial aspect of the Israeli state has made all of its citizens active combatants (see the case of Haneen Zoubi, who was treated like an enemy spy because she was with the Gaza flotilla, and the new warlike demand for an oath of loyalty being debated in the Knesset).

[9]

eventually a lot of Israelis are going to get iced, and some of them will not be carrying weapons at the time of their icing. That doesn't really make them 'civilians' though. The notion that a state literally founded on plunder and genocide and maintained via a gigantic violent bureaucracy can contain "civilians" in any useful sense of the term is pretty absurd.
So then you don't consider yourself a 'civilian', right?


And certainly the perpetual militarization and colonial aspect of the Israeli state has made all of its citizens active combatants (see the case of Haneen Zoubi, who was treated like an enemy spy because she was with the Gaza flotilla, and the new warlike demand for an oath of loyalty being debated in the Knesset).I don't really see how the parenthetical relates to the comment preceding it.

[ComradeMan]

A lone voice in the wilderness has been saying this for a long time, it's not particularly new either. Yet there are indeed some, and some here, who would rather paint the picture of all Israelis as evil settlers, radical rabbis and racist extremists and conveniently absolve the Palestinians et all of all blame/responsibility etc. I seem to recall one distasteful comment about "saving bullets"....:blink:

[graffic]

I think the problem with israeli settlers is that in a few decades they will be a minority and like South Africa the world will not tolerate it. They have the most right wing government right now that has no commen sense and Avigdor Liberman is probably the rudest, most racist, stupid, insensitive MK to be in government. An example of defying common sense was Netanyahu's recent reaction to the horrific murder of a jewish family in the West Bank. Most people with their head screwed on would think the best response would be to use full force of the law to find the killers and bring them to justice. But Netanyahu, despite even the US being against it, declares to "build more" settlements in response to the murder. The settlers are nutjobs but then so are the Arabs who want to cleanse palestine of Jews. There definately needs to be a palestininian state. Obviously it wont solve the problem but its the only logical step to take towards more peace between Arabs and Jews

[9]

conveniently absolve the Palestinians et all of all blame/responsibility etc.

"The Palestinians" aren't to "blame" for anything because "the Palestinians" aren't some hivemind with a single set of interests, and the PA/Hamas is not "the Palestinians" any more than the Israeli state is "the Jews" (altho you seem to believe that too, so hey...)

[Dimmu]

There are to things that make the peace offer fail every single time..

1) Israeli extremists
2) Palestinian extremists

Both of these groups are very powerful and they manipulate the rest of the population to support their cause.

Until both of these groups will be pacified, nothing will change.

[ComradeMan]

"The Palestinians" aren't to "blame" for anything because "the Palestinians" aren't some hivemind with a single set of interests, and the PA/Hamas is not "the Palestinians" any more than the Israeli state is "the Jews" (altho you seem to believe that too, so hey...)

Oh shut up why don't you? The "Palestinians" in the sense of the Palestinian political movements and leadership that have their own skeletons in the cupboards too. People with your attitude don't help the situation either because you refuse to analyse the Palestinian/Arab part of the conflict objectively. Quite frankly, no one comes out of this conflict with their hands clean and repeated attempts to portray the situation otherwise are just appeals to oppurtunism.

[RGacky3]

I absolve palestinians of blame .... Becasue they are the ones being oppressed, they are not occupying Isreal, they arn't blockaiding Isreal, they arn't settling Isreal, they arn't sytematically taking rights and land from Isreal ... So THAT Problem is the Isreali's fault, and THAT is the problem thats stopping peace.

[ComradeMan]

I absolve palestinians of blame .... Becasue they are the ones being oppressed, they are not occupying Isreal, they arn't blockaiding Isreal, they arn't settling Isreal, they arn't sytematically taking rights and land from Isreal ... So THAT Problem is the Isreali's fault, and THAT is the problem thats stopping peace.

They're not involved in corruption that sees the money that could be used to help people in a bad situations to pay big fat wages/salaries in the PA, backhanders and all kinds of shit and they aren't the ones who undermined their own cause with things like Munich etc.... I am not talking about people on the ground, ordinary people, I am talking about organisations etc and seeing as about a month ago you weren't evern familiar with what the Hamas charter was, for example, I don't think your in a position to talk.

By the way, absolution is tantamount to admittance of guilt. :thumbup1:

[RGacky3]

They're not involved in corruption that sees the money that could be used to help people in a bad situations to pay big fat wages/salaries in the PA, backhanders and all kinds of shit and they aren't the ones who undermined their own cause with things like Munich etc.... I am not talking about people on the ground, ordinary people, I am talking about organisations etc and seeing as about a month ago you weren't evern familiar with what the Hamas charter was, for example, I don't think your in a position to talk.


Absolutely, but corruption is not the cause of the isreali palestinian conflict. Also things like Munich were done decades ago and terrorism has been pretty much abandoned.

[Viet Minh]

So then you don't consider yourself a 'civilian', right?

I don't really see how the parenthetical relates to the comment preceding it.

Maybe he's native American? 'One tenth' cherokee seems a popular choice these days..


There are to things that make the peace offer fail every single time..

1) Israeli extremists
2) Palestinian extremists

Both of these groups are very powerful and they manipulate the rest of the population to support their cause.

Until both of these groups will be pacified, nothing will change.

Do I have a potential convert to my 3 state solution? :)


Oh shut up why don't you? The "Palestinians" in the sense of the Palestinian political movements and leadership that have their own skeletons in the cupboards too. People with your attitude don't help the situation either because you refuse to analyse the Palestinian/Arab part of the conflict objectively. Quite frankly, no one comes out of this conflict with their hands clean and repeated attempts to portray the situation otherwise are just appeals to oppurtunism.

There does seem to be a blinkered view at times, ie Palestine Good, Israel bad. Its a horrible situation for people on both sides, the sooner people stop the flag waving and blaming and rabble-rousing, and start looking for peaceful solutions the better it will be for the ordinary people there.

[RGacky3]

and start looking for peaceful solutions the better it will be for the ordinary people there.

Any peaceful solutoin has to be started with the occupation, blockaid and settlements ended, all of those are being done by Isreal, its just facts.

[Viet Minh]

So as not to be a total hypocrite, some proposals for resolution


Send in the UN, to physically man the entire Israeli and Palestinian territories, disarm all civilians and army and police etc, and enforce strict law and order (based on international law). Build high physical barriers on the 1947 borders, and patrol them to ensure security, as well as the peripheral borders preventing any weapons being brought in from outside.

Alternatively, as above, but somehow enforce integration.

I know these are far from ideal solutions, but it makes a change from the endless debating that goes nowhere, right?

[RGacky3]

the UN can't even pass a resolutoin condmening the settlements (the US blocks it).

[masty]

So then you don't consider yourself a 'civilian', right?

no, definitely not. duh.


I don't really see how the parenthetical relates to the comment preceding it.
if Israel weren't perpetually at war and if all of her citizens were not expected to prosecute that war at all times then what Haneen Zoubi did would not have been objectionable, and nobody would be clamoring for a loyalty oath. loyalty oaths are the kinds of things you require from soldiers, not civilians.

[masty]

There does seem to be a blinkered view at times, ie Palestine Good, Israel bad. Its a horrible situation for people on both sides, the sooner people stop the flag waving and blaming and rabble-rousing, and start looking for peaceful solutions the better it will be for the ordinary people there.
yeah it sure is 'blinkered' sometimes, what with decades of genocide on the one side and pathetic one-off rocket attacks on the other. if only we could all learn the completely useless liberal lesson that 'all violence is bad' then we'd have a clear and subtle understanding of the situation. give me a fucking break.

[RGacky3]

no, definitely not. duh.


Your definition of civilian is entirely different from everyone elses, and its basically only a definition you made up to justify killing them.


loyalty oaths are the kinds of things you require from soldiers, not civilians.

Ever heard of the pledge of alliegence? They make kids to that.

[Viet Minh]

yeah it sure is 'blinkered' sometimes, what with decades of genocide on the one side and pathetic one-off rocket attacks on the other. if only we could all learn the completely useless liberal lesson that 'all violence is bad' then we'd have a clear and subtle understanding of the situation. give me a fucking break.

Lets stick to facts and not exaggerations here, just for the record


3,278 rockets and mortars landed in Israel in 2008, 774 in 2009 and 180 in 2010, according to the IDF.

Now I await you justifying that, and accusing me of supporting Israeli aggression, which I do not in any way. The left oppose Israel for their daily human rights abuses, I like to think they equally condemn Palestinian groups or individuals who attack innocent civilians (Arabs and Jews), few as they are. One of my muslim friends was with me when a news bulletin came on tv, about an Israeli Arab who bombed a shop in Israel. I have to admit I was surprised to hear him condemn the attack, as he is very outspoken against Israel's atrocities. He replied that Isreali soldiers would react by going into Palestine and killing innocent people in revenge, for something they did not personally do. So for this reason alone supporting Palestinian resistance does not help the palestinian people.

Can you see the difference between this (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1120504.html) and this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel#2005_.22World_Witho ut_Zionism.22_speech)?

[RGacky3]

Theres been posts here listing to civilian casualties between the Isrealis and Palestinians, and yeah, the Isrealis kill many many many times more than the palestinians kill.

Also a lot of those rocket attacks were without warheads, i.e. they were duds to make a point.

[Dimmu]

Theres been posts here listing to civilian casualties between the Isrealis and Palestinians, and yeah, the Isrealis kill many many many times more than the palestinians kill.

Also a lot of those rocket attacks were without warheads, i.e. they were duds to make a point.

This argument is flawed since Israelis and Palestinians have different fire-power at their disposable.

[RGacky3]

Exactly, So what? If a guy with a baseball bat is beating up a guy with nothing, and the guy everynow and then kicks back, saying "oh but thats juts because one guy has a bat" is not an argument.

Palestine is'nt occupying Isreal, they arn't blockaiding it, they arn't settling it, they arn't dispossessing Isreal.

[9]

if Israel weren't perpetually at war and if all of her citizens were not expected to prosecute that war at all times then what Haneen Zoubi did would not have been objectionable, and nobody would be clamoring for a loyalty oath. loyalty oaths are the kinds of things you require from soldiers, not civilians.
I'm not really understanding what you're even trying to say here.

You seemed to be arguing before that all Israelis are collectively responsible for the violence and repression carried out by 'their' state, and then citing the violence and repression carried out by the state as evidence of this...

But the population in Israel, like the population everywhere, is divided into classes. And if you are a marxist, you know that the state is an organ of class rule. Incidentally, the majority of Israelis aren't part of the ruling (i.e. capitalist) class. So how are they collectively responsible for the actions of the state?

[Viet Minh]

Exactly, So what? If a guy with a baseball bat is beating up a guy with nothing, and the guy everynow and then kicks back, saying "oh but thats juts because one guy has a bat" is not an argument.


Again, what's your solution? Disarm the first guy, or give the other guy a baseball bat as well? These would create a level playing field, but they do nothing to address the conflict, so it will just continue, except both sides are doing equal damage.

[RGacky3]

Disarm the first guy ..... No one is suggesting giving palestinians bombers and missles.

[masty]

I'm not really understanding what you're even trying to say here.

You seemed to be arguing before that all Israelis are collectively responsible for the violence and repression carried out by 'their' state, and then citing the violence and repression carried out by the state as evidence of this...

But the population in Israel, like the population everywhere, is divided into classes. And if you are a marxist, you know that the state is an organ of class rule. Incidentally, the majority of Israelis aren't part of the ruling (i.e. capitalist) class. So how are they collectively responsible for the actions of the state?
This is garbage like everything else you've posted. The state is most definitely an organ of class rule, and Israel is a settler state, and the mechanics of settlerism distort traditional class relationships. The average Israeli worker does not live in a slum, isn't starved to death as a part of the official policy of his government, doesn't have to deal with checkpoints, bombs, inter-party warfare etc. The average Israeli worker is completely in lock-step with the ruling classes, and this is borne out by opinion polls, the makeup of the Knesset, etc. The real underclass and proletariat of Israel is of course the Palestinians, who deal with basically unmitigated colonial military rule. This is the class arrangement of the Israeli state- there are no poor Israelis, and no rich Palestinians (generally speaking)- Israeli-Palstinian masks the real class relationship of rich-poor.

[masty]

Lets stick to facts and not exaggerations here, just for the record



Now I await you justifying that, and accusing me of supporting Israeli aggression, which I do not in any way. The left oppose Israel for their daily human rights abuses, I like to think they equally condemn Palestinian groups or individuals who attack innocent civilians (Arabs and Jews), few as they are. One of my muslim friends was with me when a news bulletin came on tv, about an Israeli Arab who bombed a shop in Israel. I have to admit I was surprised to hear him condemn the attack, as he is very outspoken against Israel's atrocities. He replied that Isreali soldiers would react by going into Palestine and killing innocent people in revenge, for something they did not personally do. So for this reason alone supporting Palestinian resistance does not help the palestinian people.
Yes, let's stick to the facts, like those I mentioned in the post you called 'exaggerated.' I'd like to see you point out one part of that post which was in any way untrue.

Speaking of your own respect for facts, you cherry-picked one statistic out of thousands to make your excuses for Israeli genocide. Compare the life expectancies or toll of violent deaths of Israelis and Palestinians for the past sixty years instead of some worthless disembodied rocket count (Palestinian rockets are much less lethal than Israeli ones, and ten times that fell on Gaza during Cast Lead) and you'll get a truer picture of what's going on. Placing the moral onus on both Israel and Palestine for using violence and killing civilians places them on the same decrepit moral level, which anyone with a clear head can easily see is disgusting and false, and serves no purpose except excusing the far greater wrongs Israel perpetrates. You claim to object to Israel doing what it's doing but your rhetorical strategy doesn't at all lead to that conclusion.

And I'm not even responding to your attempt to call me an anti-semite.

[9]

This is garbage like everything else you've posted. The state is most definitely an organ of class rule, and Israel is a settler state, and the mechanics of settlerism distort traditional class relationships. The average Israeli worker does not live in a slum, isn't starved to death as a part of the official policy of his government, doesn't have to deal with checkpoints, bombs, inter-party warfare etc. The average Israeli worker is completely in lock-step with the ruling classes, and this is borne out by opinion polls, the makeup of the Knesset, etc. The real underclass and proletariat of Israel is of course the Palestinians, who deal with basically unmitigated colonial military rule. This is the class arrangement of the Israeli state- there are no poor Israelis, and no rich Palestinians (generally speaking)- Israeli-Palstinian masks the real class relationship of rich-poor.

Oh, see I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that maybe you had some vague, ostensibly marxist orientation. But nope, turns out you are nothing more than an outraged liberal (and an ignorant one, to boot). My bad.

[Viet Minh]

Yes, let's stick to the facts, like those I mentioned in the post you called 'exaggerated.' I'd like to see you point out one part of that post which was in any way untrue. .


pathetic one-off rocket attacks on the other

'One-off' seemed a strange way to describe one rocket every 2 days, many more in previous years. Its no9t a blatant downright lie but its not unbiased reporting either.


Speaking of your own respect for facts, you cherry-picked one statistic out of thousands to make your excuses for Israeli genocide. Compare the life expectancies or toll of violent deaths of Israelis and Palestinians for the past sixty years instead of some worthless disembodied rocket count (Palestinian rockets are much less lethal than Israeli ones, and ten times that fell on Gaza during Cast Lead) and you'll get a truer picture of what's going on. Placing the moral onus on both Israel and Palestine for using violence and killing civilians places them on the same decrepit moral level, which anyone with a clear head can easily see is disgusting and false, and serves no purpose except excusing the far greater wrongs Israel perpetrates. You claim to object to Israel doing what it's doing but your rhetorical strategy doesn't at all lead to that conclusion..

There it is, right on time! :D Read my post again, the only mention I made of Israel was to refer to their daily human rights abuses. And yes the vast majority of killings are by Israel, does that excuse all Palestinian aggression? To you it obviously does, in which case you have unbelivable double standards in saying I support murder.

I am not placing them both on the same moral level (ie i'm not saying they're equally culpable) I am judging them both by the same moral standards. For example, I say killing an innocent Israeli civilian is wrong, you seem to be saying 'well its because of occupation'.


And I'm not even responding to your attempt to call me an anti-semite.

When!?!? :confused: :confused: :confused: srsly wtf?! :blink:

[Jack]

So.....can noone in this thread spell Israel properly?

[graffic]

Also things like Munich were done decades ago and terrorism has been pretty much abandoned.

You didn't hear about the Itamar murders last week. They slit the throat of a baby Jewish child. No Israeli would ever do that to a palestinian. They are barbaric

[RGacky3]

That was'nt even done by palestinians numbnuts. (http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=212177) Even if it was, tahts not terrorism, thats a sick person commiting murder.

[Viet Minh]

You didn't hear about the Itamar murders last week. They slit the throat of a baby Jewish child. No Israeli would ever do that to a palestinian. They are barbaric

No Palestinian group has claimed responsibility, and Mahmoud Abbas has condemned the killings. Nothing is certain yet about who perpetrated this horrific crime, the Israelis are still searching for the killer (whilst others take justice into their own hands). Lets not turn this tragic event into nothing more than political propaganda. Its that attitude that causes this shit to happen in the first place. :(

[Amphictyonis]

You didn't hear about the Itamar murders last week. They slit the throat of a baby Jewish child. No Israeli would ever do that to a palestinian. They are barbaric

Wouldn't have to, all they need do is fly over and drop some bombs. Negrep for you :) Idiot.

[black magick hustla]

This is garbage like everything else you've posted. The state is most definitely an organ of class rule, and Israel is a settler state, and the mechanics of settlerism distort traditional class relationships. The average Israeli worker does not live in a slum, isn't starved to death as a part of the official policy of his government, doesn't have to deal with checkpoints, bombs, inter-party warfare etc. The average Israeli worker is completely in lock-step with the ruling classes, and this is borne out by opinion polls, the makeup of the Knesset, etc. The real underclass and proletariat of Israel is of course the Palestinians, who deal with basically unmitigated colonial military rule. This is the class arrangement of the Israeli state- there are no poor Israelis, and no rich Palestinians (generally speaking)- Israeli-Palstinian masks the real class relationship of rich-poor.

they should ban maoist college hipsters from using a keyboard. anyway, the ideas are always the ideas of the ruling class, this is why workers are a lot of the time in "lock step" with their bosses. this post is garbage anyway and its a rejection of class analysis

[gorillafuck]

but..but...revleft say israeli people are all imperialist and deserve to be kille by rocket made of car spare part.....

i am confused.Except not too many people say that here, that accusation is basically something that people who don't understand the idea of opposing your own ruling class accuse others of doing because they're upset that Israel gets focused on by Americans. As it should.


They slit the throat of a baby Jewish child. No Israeli would ever do that to a palestinian. They are barbaricYeah white people could never do that, that's more of an arab thing to do.

Holy fuck you're really racist. And you've been posting for a while...

[Viet Minh]

Yeah white people could never do that, that's more of an arab thing to do.

Holy fuck you're really racist. And you've been posting for a while...

What he said was unnacceptable, but not racist imo. If he used the terms arab and jew then yes, but the terms Israeli (which includes Arab Israelis) and Palestinians (which includes Palestinian Jews) are not racial but political, and I've seen worse said by both 'sides' on here..

[empiredestoryer]

the isreali left should be treated like the isreali right they will never hand back what they have stolen and will only be beaten by force

[Hexen]

Occupiers of any kind should not be supported.

[RGacky3]

What he said was unnacceptable, but not racist imo. If he used the terms arab and jew then yes, but the terms Israeli (which includes Arab Israelis) and Palestinians (which includes Palestinian Jews) are not racial but political, and I've seen worse said by both 'sides' on here..

If I say white people don't do this, thats racist, if I say europena people don't do this (european is not a race), the connotations and intent is still the same so its racist.

Isrealis btw are not neccessarily white, but its still racist because its the same idea, this ethnicity is better than that ethnicity.

[Viet Minh]

If I say white people don't do this, thats racist, if I say europena people don't do this (european is not a race), the connotations and intent is still the same so its racist.

Isrealis btw are not neccessarily white, but its still racist because its the same idea, this ethnicity is better than that ethnicity.

So any time you make any sort of anti-Israel comment you are being racist?

[RGacky3]

No, because I'm talking about the State of Israel, which does as any ethno-centric state with that much power and imperial ambitions does.

[Viet Minh]

No, because I'm talking about the State of Israel, which does as any ethno-centric state with that much power and imperial ambitions does.

Its not entirely accurate to say Israel is ethno-centric, there are Sephardi, Yemenite, Ethiopian, and Beta Israeli jews, among others. There are also Arabs, bedouin and druze. Its more accurate to say it is 'theo-centric' if there is such a term, but even then thats not the whole picture as there are also Muslims and Christians and Atheists in Israel. Likewise the term 'Palestinian' encompasses Arabs, Africans, some even use the term semitic, and again there are Palestinian Christians. If Israel or Palestine are racial terms then we are almost all guilty of racism here! Otherwise the worst we can be accused of is over-generalizing.

[RGacky3]

No, its ethno-centric, because a lot of Jews consider themselves jewish by ethnicity, not by religion, your nit picking terms and playing semantics which is a waste of time and disctracts from the actual issues.

[Viet Minh]

No, its ethno-centric, because a lot of Jews consider themselves jewish by ethnicity, not by religion, your nit picking terms and playing semantics which is a waste of time and disctracts from the actual issues.

I'm not nit picking, its a very serious accusation to accuse someone of racism, especially on a leftist forum, so if you're going to do that then back it up. We've had the conversation a million times over about Israelis saying any criticism of Israel is antisemitism, which is bullshit, and if I remember correctly you agreed with that sentiment. Also I seem to remember various negative comments about Israel you agreed with, so you can't then go an accuse someone of being racist just because they made a negative (and innacurate) description of Palestinians. Yes the comment was offensive, but it wasn't racist.

[RGacky3]

What I criticize the Isreali state, I'm criticizing an institution of power, not an ethnicity of people, not a national group, not a religion, not a race, its an institution of power, just like criticizing ANY government.

When he was criticizing (more like slandering) palestinians, he was slandering palestinians, as a group, as an ethnicity, so yeah, it was effectively racism.

Now if your gonna argue about what is or is not a race you are nitpicking, it would be like saying racism against Jews is'nt racism because they technically are not a race, or racism in the past against Irish was'nt racism, or the hutu and tutsi racism was not racism, your missing the point and just playing in semantics.

[Viet Minh]

What I criticize the Isreali state, I'm criticizing an institution of power, not an ethnicity of people, not a national group, not a religion, not a race, its an institution of power, just like criticizing ANY government.

When he was criticizing (more like slandering) palestinians, he was slandering palestinians, as a group, as an ethnicity, so yeah, it was effectively racism.

You're reading a lot into a very short post, there's no proof I can see he meant it as such. He could be talking about the Palestinian Authority who were accused of the crime he referred to. Sometimes people say 'Israel' as if every Israeli is to blame for every atrocity committed by the IDF, but that doesn't mean the intention is racist.


Now if your gonna argue about what is or is not a race you are nitpicking, it would be like saying racism against Jews is'nt racism because they technically are not a race, or racism in the past against Irish was'nt racism, or the hutu and tutsi racism was not racism, your missing the point and just playing in semantics.

It doesn't matter if they're a race or not, its you that's missing the point. Criticism of Hamas is not criticism of Islam, criticism of the US is not criticism of Christianity, cirticism of Israel is not antisemitism, do you see my point? He worded it badly saying Palestinians rather than PA or Hamas, but others have too, in this very thread. I frequently see generalised criticism of Israel, I don't take it to mean the entire nation.


So THAT Problem is the Isreali's fault

Do you mind me asking are you Palestinian, or do you have connections to Palestine?

[graffic]

Wouldn't have to, all they need do is fly over and drop some bombs. Negrep for you :) Idiot.

I'm in no way defending the Gaza war or other wars but the IDF targets the miltitary. The problem the IDF has is that civilians are threatened to be killed by Hamas if they don't let the terroists use their homes as rocket launching pads. I still don't think you can justify bombing a densely populated area like Gaza but they have reasons for doing so and collateral damage is not illegal in war.


Yeah white people could never do that, that's more of an arab thing to do.

Holy fuck you're really racist. And you've been posting for a while...


Yeah well let me know when an Israeli slits a babies throat and i will revise what i said

[RGacky3]

He could be talking about the Palestinian Authority who were accused of the crime he referred to. Sometimes people say 'Israel' as if every Israeli is to blame for every atrocity committed by the IDF, but that doesn't mean the intention is racist.


He was talking about the murder of a Child, and he said "No Israeli would do that to a palestinian .... they are barberic," what does that sound like to you?

Also yes, sensible people understand that when you say Israel in that context (the same way with ANY country), you are talking about the Israely state, of which the IDF is the military arm.


It doesn't matter if they're a race or not, its you that's missing the point. Criticism of Hamas is not criticism of Islam, criticism of the US is not criticism of Christianity, cirticism of Israel is not antisemitism, do you see my point? He worded it badly saying Palestinians rather than PA or Hamas, but others have too, in this very thread. I frequently see generalised criticism of Israel, I don't take it to mean the entire nation.


Criticism of Israel is ALWAYS understood as criticism of the state.

Palestine has no state btw, so people have to be more specific (hammas or abbas), but when you say ...

"You didn't hear about the Itamar murders last week. They slit the throat of a baby Jewish child. No Israeli would ever do that to a palestinian. They are barbaric "

How the hell is that not taken as racist, your joking.

[Viet Minh]

He was talking about the murder of a Child, and he said "No Israeli would do that to a palestinian .... they are barberic," what does that sound like to you?

Also yes, sensible people understand that when you say Israel in that context (the same way with ANY country), you are talking about the Israely state, of which the IDF is the military arm.



Criticism of Israel is ALWAYS understood as criticism of the state.

Palestine has no state btw, so people have to be more specific (hammas or abbas), but when you say ...

"You didn't hear about the Itamar murders last week. They slit the throat of a baby Jewish child. No Israeli would ever do that to a palestinian. They are barbaric "

How the hell is that not taken as racist, your joking.

Well I'm glad we cleared that up, its okay to say Israelis are fascist, Imperialist etc etc but any criticism of palestinians is racist.

[RGacky3]

learn to read moron.

[masty]

they should ban maoist college hipsters from using a keyboard. anyway, the ideas are always the ideas of the ruling class, this is why workers are a lot of the time in "lock step" with their bosses. this post is garbage anyway and its a rejection of class analysis
even those who promote the 'deference voting' theory acknowledge that at most it only ensnares a fraction of the working class and not the whole entire thing- and, again, if you look at the knesset and the widespread support for the most racist policies such as loyalty oaths and squads of roaming relationship police counseling jewish women against going out with arabs, you can see that considerably more than a minority of israeli jews support the ideology of the ruling class, almost as if they were themselves enthusiastic members of the ruling class and not proletarian just because they're poorer than a ceo or do work with their hands occasionally.

this shit is like a time warp. who has seriously entertained the idea that colonial and metropolitan workers are identical in class outlook in like 90 years? was lenin a maoist college hipster avant la lettre or what?