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elijahcraig
14th September 2003, 20:03
H.L. Mencken, who wrote the introduction to my edition of this great philosophical work, said of the book, “it may be accepted as a statement of some of his most salient ideas in their final form.” He says, “Nietzsche, in this book, intended to attack Christianity headlong and with all arms,” and I think that is a perfect description of the book myself. He says of Nietzsche’s criticisms of the religion, “You will find the most important of all of them—the conception of Christianity as [resentment]—“ And his answers to the Christian religion? “The will to power was his answer to Christianity’s affection of humility and self-sacrifice; eternal recurrence was his mocking criticism of Christian optimism and millenialism; the superman was his candidate for the place of the Christian ideal of the ‘good’ man, prudently abased before the throne of God. The things he chiefly argued for were anti-Christian things—the abandonment of the purely moral view of life, the rehabilitation of instinct, the dethronement of weakness and timidity as ideals, the renunciation of the whole hocus-pocus of dogmatic religion, the extermination of false aristocracies (of the priest, of the politician, of the plutocrat), the revival of the healthy, lordly ‘innocence’ that was Greek.” Mencken says, “his whole manner of thinking was Hellenic;…his real forefather was Heraclitus.”

Mencken comments on Nietzsche’s writing being distorted by “ancient enthusiasm” and the clash with new ideals. He says, “The result was a great deal of misrepresentation and misunderstanding of him. From the pulpits of the allied countries, and particularly from those of England and the United States, a horde of patriotic ecclesiastics denounced him in extravagant terms as the author of all the horrors of the time, and in the newspapers, until the Kaiser was elected sole bugaboo, he shared the honors of that office with von Hindenburg, the Crown Prince, Capt. Boy-Ed, von Bernstorff and von Tirpitz. Most of this denunciation, of course, was frankly idiotic—the naïve pishposh of suburban Methodists, notoriety-seeking college professors, almost illiterate editorial writers, and other such numbskulls. In much of it, including not a few official hymns of hate, Nietzsche was gravely discovered to be the teacher of such spokesmen of the extremist sort of German nationalism as von Bernhardt and von Tkeitschke—which was just as intelligent as making George Bernard Shaw the mentor of Lloyd-George.” He says, “Alas, poor Nietzsche! After all his laborious efforts to prove that he was not a German, but a Pole—even after his heroic readiness, via anti-anti-Semitism, to meet the deduction that, if a Pole, then probably also a Jew!”

“But he was plainly a foe of democracy in all its forms, political, religious, and epistemological, and what is worse, his opposition was set forth in terms that were not only extraordinarily penetrating and devestating, but also uncommonly offensive.” Mencken sums up Nietzsche’s view of “mass movements,” etc. He continues, “If Nietzsche’s criticism of democracy were as ignorant and empty, say, as the average evangelical clergyman’s criticisms of Darwin’s hypothesis of natural selection, then the advocates of democracy could afford to dismiss it as loftily as the Darwinians dismiss the blather of the holy clerks. And if his attack upon Christianity were mere sound and fury, signifying nothing, then there would be no call for anathemas from the sacred desk. But these onslaughts, in point of fact, have plausibility—there are, in brief, bullets in the gun, teeth in the tiger—and so it is no wonder that they excite the ire of men who hold, as primary article of belief, that their acceptance would destroy civilization, darken the sun, and bring Jehovah to sobs upon His Throne.”

Mencken goes on, “But in all justifiable fear, of course, there remains a false assumption, and that is the assumption that Nietzsche proposed to destroy Christianity altogether, and so rob the plain people of the world of their virtue, their spiritual consolations, and their hope of heaven. Nothing could be more untrue. The fact is that Nietzsche had no interest whatever in the delusions of the plain people—that is, intrinsically. It seemed to him of small moment what they believed, so long as it was safely imbecile. What he stood against was not their beliefs, but the elevation of those beliefs, by any sort of democratic process, to the dignity of a state philosophy—what he feared most was the pollution and crippling of the superior minority by intellectual disease from below. His plain aim in “The Antichrist” was to combat that menace of completing the work begun, on the one hand, by Darwin and the other evolutionist philosophers, and, on the other hand, by German historians and philologians.”

What warrants inferiority according to Nietzsche, “Belief in them [Christendom] had become a mark of inferiority, like the allied Belief in madstones, magic and apparitions.”

Mencken outlines Nietzsche’s view of Christian ethics, “Christian ethics were quite dubious, at bottom, as Christian theology—that they were founded, just as surely as such childish fables as the story of Jonah and the whale, upon the peculiar prejudices and credulities, the special desires and appetities, of inferior men”. …”In brief, what he saw in Christian ethics, under all the poetry and all the fine show of altruism and all the theoretical benefits therein, was a democratic effort to curb the egoism of the strong—a conspiracy of the Chandala against the free functioning of their superiors, nay, against the free progress of mankind.”

On Democracy, “Democracy and free speech are not facets of one gem; democracy and free speech are eternal enemies.” “The majority of men prefer delusion to truth. It soothes. It is easy to grasp. Above all, it fits more snugly than the truth into a universe of false appearances—of complex and irrational phenomena, defectively grasped. But though an idea that is true is thus not likely to prevail, an idea that is attacked enjoys a great advantage.”

On Bolshevism and the like, “he seldom allowed sentimentality to turn him from the glaring fact. What is called Bolshevism today he saw clearly a generation ago and described for what it was and is—democracy in another aspect, the old [resentment] of the lower orders in free function once more. Socialism, Puritanism, Philistinism, Christianity—he saw them all as allotropic forms of democracy, as variations upon the endless struggle of quantity against quality, of the weak and timorous against the strong and enterprising, of the botched against the fit.”

More on Bolshevism, “risings of the lower orders,” etc., from Mencken, “We are in the midst of one of the perennial risings of the lower orders. It got under way long before any of the current Bolshevist demons was born; it was given its long, secure start by the intolerable tyranny of the plutocracy—the end product of the Eighteenth Century revolt against the old aristocracy. It found resistance suddenly slackened by civil war within the plutocracy itself—one gang of traders falling upon another gang, to the tune of vast hymn-singing and yells to God. Perhaps it has already passed its apogee; the plutocracy, chastened, shows signs of a new solidarity; the wheel continues to swing ‘round. But this combat between proletariat and plutocracy is, after all, itself a civil war. Two inferiorities struggle for the privilege of polluting the world. What actual difference does it make to a civilized man, when there is a steel strike, whether the workmen win or the mill-owners win? The conflict can interest him only as spectacle, as the conflict between Bonaparte and the old order in Europe interested Goethe and Beethoven. The victory, whichever way it goes, will simply bring chaos nearer, and so set the stage for a genuine revolution later on, with (let us hope) a new feudalism or something better coming out of it, and a new Thirteenth Century at dawn. This seems to be the slow, costly way of the worst of habitably worlds.

More on democracy, “Politics, under a democracy, reduces itself to a mere struggle for office by flatterer of the proletariat; even when a superior man prevails at that disgusting game he must prevail at the cost of his self-respect.” That statements is true of bourgeois democracy, completely.

Mencken, on “free spirits,” etc.: “it will remain in a sort of half-world, midway between the gutter and the stars. Above it will still stand the small group of men that constitutes the permanent aristocracy of the race—the men of imagination and high purpose, the makers of the genuine progress, the brave and ardent spirits, above all petty fears and discontents and above all petty hopes and ideals no less. There were heroes before Agamemnon; there will be Bachs after Johann Sebastian. And beneath the Judaized plutocracy, the sublimated bourgeosie, there the immemorial proletariat, I venture to guess, will roar on, endlessly tortured by its vain hatreds and envies, stampeded and made to tremble by its ancient superstitions, prodded and made miserable by its sordid and degrading hopes. It seems to me very likely that, in this proletariat, Christianity will continue to survive. It is nonsense, true enough, but it is sweet. Nietzsche, denouncing its dangers as a poison, almost falls into the error of denying it its undoubtedly sugary smack. Of all the religions ever devised by the great practical jokers of the race, this is the one that offers most for the least money, so to speak, to the inferior man. It starts out by denying his inferiority in plain terms: all men are equal in the sight of God. It ends by erecting that inferiority into a sort of actual superiority: it is a merit to be stupid, and miserable and sorely put upon—of such are the celestial elect. Not all the eloquence of a million Nietzsches, nor all the painful marshalling of evidence of a million Darwins and Harnacks, will ever empty that great consolation of its allure. The most they can ever accomplish is to make the superior orders of men acutely conscious of the exact nature of it, and so give them armament against the contagion.”

Here are some snippets from “The Antichrist” itself:

“This book belongs to the most rare of men.”

“The conditions under which any one understands me, and necessarily understands me--I know them only too well. Even to endure my seriousness, my passion, he must carry intellectual integrity to the verge of hardness. He must be accustomed to living on mountain tops--and to looking upon the wretched gabble of politics and nationalism as beneath him. He must have become indifferent; he must never ask of the truth whether it brings profit to him or a fatality to him... He must have an inclination, born of strength, for questions that no one has the courage for; the courage for the forbidden; predestination for the labyrinth. The experience of seven solitudes. New ears for new music. New eyes for what is most distant. A new conscience for truths that have hitherto remained unheard. And the will to economize in the grand manner--to hold together his strength, his enthusiasm...Reverence for self; love of self; absolute freedom of self.....
Very well, then! of that sort only are my readers, my true readers, my readers foreordained: of what account are the rest?--The rest are merely humanity.--One must make one's self superior to humanity, in power, in loftiness of soul,--in contempt.”

“?--"I don't know either the way out or the way in; I am whatever doesn't know either the way out or the way in"--so sighs the man of today...This is the sort of modernity that made us ill,--we sickened on lazy peace, cowardly compromise, the whole virtuous dirtiness of the modern Yea and Nay. This tolerance and largeur of the heart that "forgives" everything because it "understands" everything is a sirocco to us. Rather live amid the ice than among modern virtues and other such south-winds!”

“What is good?--Whatever augments the feeling of power, the will to power, power itself, in man.
What is evil?--Whatever springs from weakness.
What is happiness?--The feeling that power increases--that resistance is overcome.
Not contentment, but more power; not peace at any price, but war; not virtue, but efficiency (virtue in the Renaissance sense, virtu, virtue free of moral acid).
The weak and the botched shall perish: first principle of our charity. And one should help them to it.
What is more harmful than any vice?--Practical sympathy for the botched and the weak--Christianity... “

“The problem that I set here is not what shall replace mankind in the order of living creatures (--man is an end--): but what type of man must be bred, must be willed, as being the most valuable, the most worthy of life, the most secure guarantee of the future.
This more valuable type has appeared often enough in the past: but always as a happy accident, as an exception, never as deliberately willed. Very often it has been precisely the most feared; hitherto it has been almost the terror of terrors ;--and out of that terror the contrary type has been willed, cultivated and attained: the domestic animal, the herd animal, the sick brute-man--the Christian. . . “

“Mankind surely does not represent an evolution toward a better or stronger or higher level, as progress is now understood. This "progress" is merely a modern idea, which is to say, a false idea.
…the process of evolution does not necessarily mean elevation, enhancement, strengthening. “

“We should not deck out and embellish Christianity: it has waged a war to the death against this higher type of man, it has put all the deepest instincts of this type under its ban, it has developed its concept of evil, of the Evil One himself, out of these instincts--the strong man as the typical reprobate, the "outcast among men." Christianity has taken the part of all the weak, the low, the botched; it has made an ideal out of antagonism to all the self-preservative instincts of sound life; it has corrupted even the faculties of those natures that are intellectually most vigorous, by representing the highest intellectual values as sinful, as misleading, as full of temptation. The most lamentable example: the corruption of Pascal, who believed that his intellect had been destroyed by original sin, whereas it was actually destroyed by Christianity!—“

“It is a painful and tragic spectacle that rises before me: I have drawn back the curtain from the rottenness of man. “

“I understand rottenness in the sense of decadence: my argument is that all the values on which mankind now fixes its highest aspirations are decadence-values. “

“Life itself appears to me as an instinct for growth, for survival, for the accumulation of forces, for power: whenever the will to power fails there is disaster. My contention is that all the highest values of humanity have been emptied of this will--that the values of decadence, of nihilism, now prevail under the holiest names. “

“Christianity is called the religion of pity.-- Pity stands in opposition to all the tonic passions that augment the energy of the feeling of aliveness: it is a depressant. A man loses power when he pities. Through pity that drain upon strength which suffering works is multiplied a thousandfold.”

“It is necessary to say just whom we regard as our antagonists: theologians and all who have any theological blood in their veins--this is our whole philosophy. . “

“This poisoning goes a great deal further than most people think: I find the arrogant habit of the theologian among all who regard themselves as "idealists"--among all who, by virtue of a higher point of departure, claim a right to rise above reality, and to look upon it with suspicion. . . The idealist, like the ecclesiastic, carries all sorts of lofty concepts in his hand (--and not only in his hand!); he launches them with benevolent contempt against "understanding," "the senses," "honor," "good living," "science"; he sees such things as beneath him, as pernicious and seductive forces, on which "the soul" soars as a pure thing-in-itself--as if humility, chastity, poverty, in a word, holiness, had not already done much more damage to life than all imaginable horrors and vices. . . The pure soul is a pure lie. . . So long as the priest, that professional denier, calumniator and poisoner of life, is accepted as a higher variety of man, there can be no answer to the question, What is truth? Truth has already been stood on its head when the obvious attorney of mere emptiness is mistaken for its representative. “

“Upon this theological instinct I make war: I find the tracks of it everywhere.
…The pathetic thing that grows out of this condition is called faith: in other words, closing one's eyes upon one's self once for all, to avoid suffering the sight of incurable falsehood. People erect a concept of morality, of virtue, of holiness upon this false view of all things; they ground good conscience upon faulty vision; they argue that no other sort of vision has value any more, once they have made theirs sacrosanct with the names of "God," "salvation" and "eternity." I unearth this theological instinct in all directions: it is the most widespread and the most subterranean form of falsehood to be found on earth. Whatever a theologian regards as true must be false: there you have almost a criterion of truth.
…Wherever the influence of theologians is felt there is a transvaluation of values, and the concepts "true" and "false" are forced to change places: what ever is most damaging to life is there called "true," and whatever exalts it, intensifies it, approves it, justifies it and makes it triumphant is there called "false."... When theologians, working through the "consciences" of princes (or of peoples--), stretch out their hands for power, there is never any doubt as to the fundamental issue: the will to make an end, the nihilistic will exerts that power... “

“the concept of the "true world," the concept of morality as the essence of the world (--the two most vicious errors that ever existed!)
…... Reason, the prerogative of reason, does not go so far. . . Out of reality there had been made "appearance"; an absolutely false world, that of being, had been turned into reality. . . . The success of Kant is merely a theological success; he was, like Luther and Leibnitz, but one more impediment to German integrity, already far from steady.—“

“A word now against Kant as a moralist. A virtue must be our invention; it must spring out of our personal need and defence. In every other case it is a source of danger. That which does not belong to our life menaces it; a virtue which has its roots in mere respect for the concept of "virtue," as Kant would have it, is pernicious. "Virtue," "duty," "good for its own sake," goodness grounded upon impersonality or a notion of universal validity--these are all chimeras, and in them one finds only an expression of the decay, the last collapse of life, the Chinese spirit of Konigsberg. Quite the contrary is demanded by the most profound laws of self-preservation and of growth: to wit, that every man find hisown virtue, his own categorical imperative. “

“Let us not under-estimate this fact: that we ourselves, we free spirits, are already a "transvaluation of all values," a visualized declaration of war and victory against all the old concepts of "true" and "not true." The most valuable intuitions are the last to be attained; the most valuable of all are those which determine methods. All the methods, all the principles of the scientific spirit of today, were the targets for thousands of years of the most profound contempt; if a man inclined to them he was excluded from the society of "decent" people--he passed as "an enemy of God," as a scoffer at the truth, as one "possessed." As a man of science, he belonged to the Chandala2... We have had the whole pathetic stupidity of mankind against us--their every notion of what the truth ought to be, of what the service of the truth ought to be--their every "thou shalt" was launched against us. . . . Our objectives, our methods, our quiet, cautious, distrustful manner--all appeared to them as absolutely discreditable and contemptible.--Looking back, one may almost ask one's self with reason if it was not actually an aesthetic sense that kept men blind so long: what they demanded of the truth was picturesque effectiveness, and of the learned a strong appeal to their senses. It was our modesty that stood out longest against their taste...How well they guessed that, these turkey-cocks of God! “

“We have unlearned something. We have be come more modest in every way. We no longer derive man from the "spirit," from the "god-head"; we have dropped him back among the beasts. We regard him as the strongest of the beasts because he is the craftiest; one of the results thereof is his intellectuality. On the other hand, we guard ourselves against a conceit which would assert itself even here: that man is the great second thought in the process of organic evolution. He is, in truth, anything but the crown of creation: beside him stand many other animals, all at similar stages of development... And even when we say that we say a bit too much, for man, relatively speaking, is the most botched of all the animals and the sickliest, and he has wandered the most dangerously from his instincts--though for all that, to be sure, he remains the most interesting!--As regards the lower animals, it was Descartes who first had the really admirable daring to describe them as machina; the whole of our physiology is directed toward proving the truth of this doctrine. Moreover, it is illogical to set man apart, as Descartes did: what we know of man today is limited precisely by the extent to which we have regarded him, too, as a machine. Formerly we accorded to man, as his inheritance from some higher order of beings, what was called "free will"; now we have taken even this will from him, for the term no longer describes anything that we can understand. The old word "will" now connotes only a sort of result, an individual reaction, that follows inevitably upon a series of partly discordant and partly harmonious stimuli--the will no longer "acts," or "moves." . . . Formerly it was thought that man's consciousness, his "spirit," offered evidence of his high origin, his divinity. That he might be perfected, he was advised, tortoise-like, to draw his senses in, to have no traffic with earthly things, to shuffle off his mortal coil--then only the important part of him, the "pure spirit," would remain. Here again we have thought out the thing better: to us consciousness, or "the spirit," appears as a symptom of a relative imperfection of the organism, as an experiment, a groping, a misunderstanding, as an affliction which uses up nervous force unnecessarily--we deny that anything can be done perfectly so long as it is done consciously. The "pure spirit" is a piece of pure stupidity: take away the nervous system and the senses, the so-called "mortal shell," and the rest is miscalculation--that is all!... “

“Under Christianity neither morality nor religion has any point of contact with actuality. It offers purely imaginary causes ("God" "soul," "ego," "spirit," "free will"--or even "unfree"), and purely imaginary effects ("sin" "salvation" "grace," "punishment," "forgiveness of sins"). Intercourse between imaginarybeings ("God," "spirits," "souls"); an imaginarynatural history (anthropocentric; a total denial of the concept of natural causes); an imaginary psychology (misunderstandings of self, misinterpretations of agreeable or disagreeable general feelings--for example, of the states of the nervus sympathicus with the help of the sign-language of religio-ethical balderdash--, "repentance," "pangs of conscience," "temptation by the devil," "the presence of God"); an imaginaryteleology (the "kingdom of God," "the last judgment," "eternal life").--This purely fictitious world, greatly to its disadvantage, is to be differentiated from the world of dreams; the later at least reflects reality, whereas the former falsifies it, cheapens it and denies it. Once the concept of "nature" had been opposed to the concept of "God," the word "natural" necessarily took on the meaning of "abominable"--the whole of that fictitious world has its sources in hatred of the natural (--the real!--), and is no more than evidence of a profound uneasiness in the presence of reality. . . . This explains everything. Who alone has any reason for living his way out of reality? The man who suffers under it. But to suffer from reality one must be a botched reality. . . . The preponderance of pains over pleasures is the cause of this fictitious morality and religion: but such a preponderance also supplies the formula for decadence... “

“A criticism of the Christian concept of God leads inevitably to the same conclusion.--A nation that still believes in itself holds fast to its own god. In him it does honour to the conditions which enable it to survive, to its virtues--it projects its joy in itself, its feeling of power, into a being to whom one may offer thanks. He who is rich will give of his riches; a proud people need a god to whom they can make sacrifices. . . Religion, within these limits, is a form of gratitude. A man is grateful for his own existence: to that end he needs a god.--Such a god must be able to work both benefits and injuries; he must be able to play either friend or foe--he is wondered at for the good he does as well as for the evil he does. But the castration, against all nature, of such a god, making him a god of goodness alone, would be contrary to human inclination. Mankind has just as much need for an evil god as for a good god; it doesn't have to thank mere tolerance and humanitarianism for its own existence. . . . What would be the value of a god who knew nothing of anger, revenge, envy, scorn, cunning, violence? who had perhaps never experienced the rapturous ardeurs of victory and of destruction? No one would understand such a god: why should any one want him?--True enough, when a nation is on the downward path, when it feels its belief in its own future, its hope of freedom slipping from it, when it begins to see submission as a first necessity and the virtues of submission as measures of self-preservation, then it must overhaul its god. He then becomes a hypocrite, timorous and demure; he counsels "peace of soul," hate-no-more, leniency, "love" of friend and foe. He moralizes endlessly; he creeps into every private virtue; he becomes the god of every man; he becomes a private citizen, a cosmopolitan. . . Formerly he represented a people, the strength of a people, everything aggressive and thirsty for power in the soul of a people; now he is simply the good god...The truth is that there is no other alternative for gods: either they are the will to power--in which case they are national gods--or incapacity for power--in which case they have to be good. “

“Wherever the will to power begins to decline, in whatever form, there is always an accompanying decline physiologically, a decadence. The divinity of this decadence, shorn of its masculine virtues and passions, is converted perforce into a god of the physiologically degraded, of the weak. Of course, they do not call themselves the weak; they call themselves "the good." . . . No hint is needed to indicate the moments in history at which the dualistic fiction of a good and an evil god first became possible. The same instinct which prompts the inferior to reduce their own god to "goodness-in-itself" also prompts them to eliminate all good qualities from the god of their superiors; they make revenge on their masters by making a devil of the latter's god.--The good god, and the devil like him--both are abortions of decadence.--How can we be so tolerant of the naïveté of Christian theologians as to join in their doctrine that the evolution of the concept of god from "the god of Israel," the god of a people, to the Christian god, the essence of all goodness, is to be described as progress?--But even Renan does this. As if Renan had a right to be naïve! The contrary actually stares one in the face. When everything necessary to ascending life; when all that is strong, courageous, masterful and proud has been eliminated from the concept of a god; when he has sunk step by step to the level of a staff for the weary, a sheet-anchor for the drowning; when he be comes the poor man's god, the sinner's god, the invalid's god par excellence, and the attribute of "saviour" or "redeemer" remains as the one essential attribute of divinity--just what is the significance of such a metamorphosis? what does such a reduction of the godhead imply?--To be sure, the "kingdom of God" has thus grown larger. Formerly he had only his own people, his "chosen" people. But since then he has gone wandering, like his people themselves, into foreign parts; he has given up settling down quietly anywhere; finally he has come to feel at home everywhere, and is the great cosmopolitan--until now he has the "great majority" on his side, and half the earth. But this god of the "great majority," this democrat among gods, has not become a proud heathen god: on the contrary, he remains a Jew, he remains a god in a corner, a god of all the dark nooks and crevices, of all the noisesome quarters of the world! . . His earthly kingdom, now as always, is a kingdom of the underworld, a souterrain kingdom, a ghetto kingdom. . . And he himself is so pale, so weak, so decadent . . . Even the palest of the pale are able to master him--messieurs the metaphysicians, those albinos of the intellect. They spun their webs around him for so long that finally he was hypnotized, and began to spin himself, and became another metaphysician. Thereafter he resumed once more his old business of spinning the world out of his inmost being sub specie Spinozae; thereafter he be came ever thinner and paler--became the "ideal," became "pure spirit," became "the absolute," became "the thing-in-itself." . . . The collapse of a god: he became a "thing-in-itself." “

“The Christian concept of a god--the god as the patron of the sick, the god as a spinner of cobwebs, the god as a spirit--is one of the most corrupt concepts that has ever been set up in the world: it probably touches low-water mark in the ebbing evolution of the god-type. God degenerated into the contradiction of life. Instead of being its transfiguration and eternal Yea! In him war is declared on life, on nature, on the will to live! God becomes the formula for every slander upon the "here and now," and for every lie about the "beyond"! In him nothingness is deified, and the will to nothingness is made holy! . . . “

“this pitiful god of Christian monotono-theism! This hybrid image of decay, conjured up out of emptiness, contradiction and vain imagining, in which all the instincts of decadence, all the cowardices and wearinesses of the soul find their sanction!—“

“In my condemnation of Christianity I surely hope I do no injustice to a related religion with an even larger number of believers: I allude to Buddhism. Both are to be reckoned among the nihilistic religions--they are both decadence religions--but they are separated from each other in a very remarkable way. For the fact that he is able to compare them at all the critic of Christianity is indebted to the scholars of India.--Buddhism is a hundred times as realistic as Christianity--it is part of its living heritage that it is able to face problems objectively and coolly; it is the product of long centuries of philosophical speculation. The concept, "god," was already disposed of before it appeared. Buddhism is the only genuinely positive religion to be encountered in history, and this applies even to its epistemology (which is a strict phenomenalism) --It does not speak of a "struggle with sin," but, yielding to reality, of the "struggle with suffering." Sharply differentiating itself from Christianity, it puts the self-deception that lies in moral concepts be hind it; it is, in my phrase,beyond good and evil.--The two physiological facts upon which it grounds itself and upon which it bestows its chief attention are: first, an excessive sensitiveness to sensation, which manifests itself as a refined susceptibility to pain, and secondly, an extraordinary spirituality, a too protracted concern with concepts and logical procedures, under the influence of which the instinct of personality has yielded to a notion of the "impersonal." (--Both of these states will be familiar to a few of my readers, the objectivists, by experience, as they are to me). These physiological states produced a depression, and Buddha tried to combat it by hygienic measures. Against it he prescribed a life in the open, a life of travel; moderation in eating and a careful selection of foods; caution in the use of intoxicants; the same caution in arousing any of the passions that foster a bilious habit and heat the blood; finally, no worry, either on one's own account or on account of others. He encourages ideas that make for either quiet contentment or good cheer--he finds means to combat ideas of other sorts. He understands good, the state of goodness, as something which promotes health. Prayer is not included, and neither is asceticism. There is no categorical imperative nor any disciplines, even within the walls of a monastery (--it is always possible to leave--). These things would have been simply means of increasing the excessive sensitiveness above mentioned. For the same reason he does not advocate any conflict with unbelievers; his teaching is antagonistic to nothing so much as to revenge, aversion, ressentiment (--"enmity never brings an end to enmity": the moving refrain of all Buddhism. . .) And in all this he was right, for it is precisely these passions which, in view of his main regiminal purpose, are unhealthful. The mental fatigue that he observes, already plainly displayed in too much "objectivity" (that is, in the individual's loss of interest in himself, in loss of balance and of "egoism"), he combats by strong efforts to lead even the spiritual interests back to the ego. In Buddha's teaching egoism is a duty. The "one thing needful," the question "how can you be delivered from suffering," regulates and determines the whole spiritual diet. (--Perhaps one will here recall that Athenian who also declared war upon pure "scientificality," to wit, Socrates, who also elevated egoism to the estate of a morality) .”

“The instinctive hatred of reality: the consequence of an extreme susceptibility to pain and irritation--so great that merely to be "touched" becomes unendurable, for every sensation is too profound.
The instinctive exclusion of all aversion, all hostility, all bounds and distances in feeling: the consequence of an extreme susceptibility to pain and irritation--so great that it senses all resistance, all compulsion to resistance, as unbearable anguish (--that is to say, as harmful, as prohibited by the instinct of self-preservation), and regards blessedness (joy) as possible only when it is no longer necessary to offer resistance to anybody or anything, however evil or dangerous--love, as the only, as the ultimate possibility of life. . .
These are the two physiological realities upon and out of which the doctrine of salvation has sprung. I call them a sublime super-development of hedonism upon a thoroughly unsalubrious soil. What stands most closely related to them, though with a large admixture of Greek vitality and nerve-force, is epicureanism, the theory of salvation of paganism. Epicurus was a typical decadent: I was the first to recognize him.--The fear of pain, even of infinitely slight pain--the end of this can be nothing save a religion of love. . . . “

“--We free spirits--we are the first to have the necessary prerequisite to understanding what nineteen centuries have misunderstood--that instinct and passion for integrity which makes war upon the "holy lie" even more than upon all other lies. . . Mankind was unspeakably far from our benevolent and cautious neutrality, from that discipline of the spirit which alone makes possible the solution of such strange and subtle things: what men always sought, with shameless egoism, was their own advantage therein; they created the church out of denial of the Gospels. . . .
Whoever sought for signs of an ironical divinity's hand in the great drama of existence would find no small indication thereof in the stupendous question-mark that is called Christianity. That mankind should be on its knees before the very antithesis of what was the origin, the meaning and the law of the Gospels--that in the concept of the "church" the very things should be pronounced holy that the "bearer of glad tidings" regards as beneath him and behind him--it would be impossible to surpass this as a grand example of world-historical irony—“

” --The thing that sets us apart is not that we are unable to find God, either in history, or in nature, or behind nature--but that we regard what has been honoured as God, not as "divine," but as pitiable, as absurd, as injurious; not as a mere error, but as acrime against life. . . We deny that God is God . . . If any one were to show us this Christian God, we'd be still less inclined to believe in him.--In a formula: deus, qualem Paulus creavit, dei negatio.--Such a religion as Christianity, which does not touch reality at a single point and which goes to pieces the moment reality asserts its rights at any point, must be inevitably the deadly enemy of the "wisdom of this world," which is to say, of science--and it will give the name of good to whatever means serve to poison, calumniate and cry down all intellectual discipline, all lucidity and strictness in matters of intellectual conscience, and all noble coolness and freedom of the mind. "Faith," as an imperative, vetoes science--in praxi, lying at any price. . . . Paul well knew that lying--that "faith"--was necessary; later on the church borrowed the fact from Paul.--The God that Paul invented for himself, a God who "reduced to absurdity" "the wisdom of this world" (especially the two great enemies of superstition, philology and medicine), is in truth only an indication of Paul's resolute determination to accomplish that very thing himself: to give one's own will the name of God, thora--that is essentially Jewish. Paul wants to dispose of the "wisdom of this world": his enemies are the good philologians and physicians of the Alexandrine school--on them he makes his war. As a matter of fact no man can be a philologian or a physician without being also Antichrist. That is to say, as a philologian a man sees behind the "holy books," and as a physician he sees behind the physiological degeneration of the typical Christian. The physician says "incurable"; the philologian says "fraud.". . . “

“The fact that faith, under certain circumstances, may work for blessedness, but that this blessedness produced by an idee fixe by no means makes the idea itself true, and the fact that faith actually moves no mountains, but instead raises them up where there were none before: all this is made sufficiently clear by a walk through a lunatic asylum. Not, of course, to a priest: for his instincts prompt him to the lie that sickness is not sickness and lunatic asylums not lunatic asylums. Christianity finds sickness necessary, just as the Greek spirit had need of a superabundance of health--the actual ulterior purpose of the whole system of salvation of the church is to make people ill. And the church itself--doesn't it set up a Catholic lunatic asylum as the ultimate ideal?--The whole earth as a madhouse?--The sort of religious man that the church wants is a typical decadent; the moment at which a religious crisis dominates a people is always marked by epidemics of nervous disorder; the inner world" of the religious man is so much like the "inner world" of the overstrung and exhausted that it is difficult to distinguish between them; the "highest" states of mind, held up be fore mankind by Christianity as of supreme worth, are actually epileptoid in form--the church has granted the name of holy only to lunatics or to gigantic frauds in majorem dei honorem. . . . Once I ventured to designate the whole Christian system of training22in penance and salvation (now best studied in England) as a method of producing a folie circulaire upon a soil already prepared for it, which is to say, a soil thoroughly unhealthy. Not every one may be a Christian: one is not "converted" to Christianity--one must first be sick enough for it. . . .We others, who have the courage for health and likewise for contempt,--we may well despise a religion that teaches misunderstanding of the body! that refuses to rid itself of the superstition about the soul! that makes a "virtue" of insufficient nourishment! that combats health as a sort of enemy, devil, temptation! that persuades itself that it is possible to carry about a "perfect soul" in a cadaver of a body, and that, to this end, had to devise for itself a new concept of "perfection," a pale, sickly, idiotically ecstatic state of existence, so-called "holiness"--a holiness that is itself merely a series of symptoms of an impoverished, enervated and incurably disordered body! . . . The Christian movement, as a European movement, was from the start no more than a general uprising of all sorts of outcast and refuse elements (--who now, under cover of Christianity, aspire to power)-- It does not represent the decay of a race; it represents, on the contrary, a conglomeration of decadence products from all directions, crowding together and seeking one another out. It was not, as has been thought, the corruption of antiquity, of noble antiquity, which made Christianity possible; one cannot too sharply challenge the learned imbecility which today maintains that theory. At the time when the sick and rotten Chandala classes in the whole imperium were Christianized, the contrary type, the nobility, reached its finest and ripest development. The majority became master; democracy, with its Christian instincts, triumphed . . . Christianity was not "national," it was not based on race--it appealed to all the varieties of men disinherited by life, it had its allies everywhere. Christianity has the rancour of the sick at its very core--the instinct against the healthy, against health. Everything that is well--constituted, proud, gallant and, above all, beautiful gives offence to its ears and eyes. Again I remind you of Paul's priceless saying: "And God hath chosen the weak things of the world, the foolish things of the world, the base things of the world, and things which are despised":23 this was the formula; in hoc signo the decadence triumphed.--God on the cross--is man always to miss the frightful inner significance of this symbol?--Everything that suffers, everything that hangs on the cross, is divine. . . . We all hang on the cross, consequently we are divine. . . . We alone are divine. . . . Christianity was thus a victory: a nobler attitude of mind was destroyed by it--Christianity remains to this day the greatest misfortune of humanity.—“

“Christianity also stands in opposition to all intellectual well-being,--sick reasoning is the only sort that it can use as Christian reasoning; it takes the side of everything that is idiotic; it pronounces a curse upon "intellect," upon the superbia of the healthy intellect.”

“"Truth," as the word is understood by every prophet, every sectarian, every free-thinker, every Socialist and every churchman, is simply a complete proof that not even a beginning has been made in the intellectual discipline and self-control that are necessary to the unearthing of even the smallest truth.--The deaths of the martyrs, it may be said in passing, have been misfortunes of history: they have misled . . . “

“I have actually heard such sentiments from the mouths of anti-Semites. On the contrary, gentlemen! An anti-Semite surely does not become more respectable because he lies on principle. . . “

“"Truth is here": this means, no matter where it is heard, the priest lies. . . . “

“Wrong never lies in unequal rights; it lies in the assertion of "equal" rights. . . . What is bad? But I have already answered: all that proceeds from weakness, from envy, from revenge.--The anarchist and the Christian have the same ancestry. . . . “

“--that the notion of a "beyond" is the death of life. Nihilist and Christian: they rhyme in German, and they do more than rhyme. “

“Christianity, alcohol--the two great means of corruption. . . . “

“--With this I come to a conclusion and pronounce my judgment. I condemn Christianity; I bring against the Christian church the most terrible of all the accusations that an accuser has ever had in his mouth. It is, to me, the greatest of all imaginable corruptions; it seeks to work the ultimate corruption, the worst possible corruption. The Christian church has left nothing untouched by its depravity; it has turned every value into worthlessness, and every truth into a lie, and every integrity into baseness of soul. Let any one dare to speak to me of its "humanitarian" blessings! Its deepest necessities range it against any effort to abolish distress; it lives by distress; it creates distress to make itself immortal. . . . For example, the worm of sin: it was the church that first enriched mankind with this misery!--The "equality of souls before God"--this fraud, this pretext for the rancunes of all the base-minded--this explosive concept, ending in revolution, the modern idea, and the notion of overthrowing the whole social order--this is Christian dynamite. . . . The "humanitarian" blessings of Christianity forsooth! To breed out of humanitas a self-contradiction, an art of self-pollution, a will to lie at any price, an aversion and contempt for all good and honest instincts! All this, to me, is the "humanitarianism" of Christianity!--Parasitism as the only practice of the church; with its anaemic and "holy" ideals, sucking all the blood, all the love, all the hope out of life; the beyond as the will to deny all reality; the cross as the distinguishing mark of the most subterranean conspiracy ever heard of,--against health, beauty, well-being, intellect, kindness of soul--against life itself. . . .
This eternal accusation against Christianity I shall write upon all walls, wherever walls are to be found--I have letters that even the blind will be able to see. . . . I call Christianity the one great curse, the one great intrinsic depravity, the one great instinct of revenge, for which no means are venomous enough, or secret, subterranean and small enough,--I call it the one immortal blemish upon the human race. . . .
And mankind reckons time from the dies nefastus when this fatality befell--from the first day of Christianity!--Why not rather from its last?--From today?--The transvaluation of all values! . . . “

If anyone here can give a Marxist critique, it would be very nice to see.

Lardlad95
14th September 2003, 20:34
.............Can't you read something less dry...like the Levaithan?

elijahcraig
14th September 2003, 20:35
I’d expect nothing less from a wannabe media whore.

Lardlad95
14th September 2003, 20:44
Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2003, 08:35 PM
I’d expect nothing less from a wannabe media whore.
You don't like Hobbes?

What about Locke?

OK fuck Hobes and Locke.....

What about James and John Stuart Mil...both of them influenced marx and you love Marx

elijahcraig
14th September 2003, 20:47
They all have merits, and many failures.

Lardlad95
14th September 2003, 20:50
Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2003, 08:47 PM
They all have merits, and many failures.
John Stuart Mil a failure? If it wasn't for the fact that thisis the internet i"d choke you.

Well all philosophers have failures...except for Siddahartha Guatama

synthesis
14th September 2003, 21:05
John Stuart Mill was the earliest example of the modern liberal, I think. In favor of social capitalism, the emancipation of women, against the slave trade, and so on.

Not all bad - but it could be a lot better.

Wasn't Hobbes the philosopher who advocated a totalitarian monarchy?

You respect this man, Lardlad?

elijahcraig
14th September 2003, 21:10
Well all philosophers have failures...except for Siddahartha Guatama

Yeah, the bouregeoisie “ideologies” did a great job of fucking over any thought of reaction, just sit around and “have peace”. Morons.

Lardlad95
14th September 2003, 21:13
Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2003, 09:05 PM
John Stuart Mill was the earliest example of the modern liberal, I think. In favor of social capitalism, the emancipation of women, against the slave trade, and so on.

Not all bad - but it could be a lot better.

Wasn't Hobbes the philosopher who advocated a totalitarian monarchy?

You respect this man, Lardlad?
Could be alot better? Mil lived in the 1800's a very repressive period, lets cut the man some sla ck.

Utlitarianism is at the heart of both socialism and communism so lets give credit where credit is due.

Do I respect Hobbes? No...do I think he was right? Somewhat.

Lets be honest people, for the most part Society as a whole is a sheepish mob that believes what they are conditioned to believe.

A Totalitarian Monarchy would keep people in line.

THe only p roblem is there are individuals out there who realize how horrible this is.

So if it wasn't for the handful of individuals that educate the masses then Hobbes could have seen his plan go into a ction.

On the one hand this means that there will never be true order without dissent...

On the other hand this gives hope to people like us because we as individuals can educate the masses

elijahcraig
14th September 2003, 21:17
Do I respect Hobbes? No...do I think he was right? Somewhat.

Lets be honest people, for the most part Society as a whole is a sheepish mob that believes what they are conditioned to believe.

A Totalitarian Monarchy would keep people in line.

You have to be joking.


THe only p roblem is there are individuals out there who realize how horrible this is.

So if it wasn't for the handful of individuals that educate the masses then Hobbes could have seen his plan go into a ction.

Like Hitler?


On the one hand this means that there will never be true order without dissent...

True.


On the other hand this gives hope to people like us because we as individuals can educate the masses

True as well.

Lardlad95
14th September 2003, 21:18
Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2003, 09:10 PM

Well all philosophers have failures...except for Siddahartha Guatama

Yeah, the bouregeoisie “ideologies” did a great job of fucking over any thought of reaction, just sit around and “have peace”. Morons.
Reaction? WHat in the hell was he going to react to? Lead a revolution against his own father and the rest of the ruling class?

Not to mention the Vedic society has had very little dissent if you compare it with other ancient societies so I very much doubt that a revolution would have occured there anymore.

You must remember India is a more spiritual place than the rest of the world...something you despretly need to look into.

Siddahartha did however do a good job of finding a solution to the religous turmoil that was occuring at the time. Though for the most part the turmoil was the voice of a very small minority who found the Vedic religion unfulfilling.

Of course Siddahartha did live hte life of a wanderer and beggar when he could ahve been part of the ruling class, so the man is noble.

Now what exactley you thought he should have done i'm not sure.

I mean for the msot pa rt these people were looking for a spiritual escape from suffering, not over throwing the aryans.

Lardlad95
14th September 2003, 21:23
Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2003, 09:17 PM

Do I respect Hobbes? No...do I think he was right? Somewhat.

Lets be honest people, for the most part Society as a whole is a sheepish mob that believes what they are conditioned to believe.

A Totalitarian Monarchy would keep people in line.

You have to be joking.


THe only p roblem is there are individuals out there who realize how horrible this is.

So if it wasn't for the handful of individuals that educate the masses then Hobbes could have seen his plan go into a ction.

Like Hitler?


On the one hand this means that there will never be true order without dissent...

True.


On the other hand this gives hope to people like us because we as individuals can educate the masses

True as well.
Are you saying people aren't a sheepish mob....

THink about this.

IN russia did most of the people complain about living under "communism" (or rather soviet socialism)?

Answer: No

In america do most people complain about living under capitalism?

Answer:No


IN both societies people were broguht up believing that their society was the greater of the two conflicting nations.

Now one side will say the other is worse...but if was so bad how come the majority of the people didn't complain about it?

If communism was so bad so very bad wouldn't everyone in Cuba be revolting?

And if capitalism was so bad wouldn't everyone in the US be revolting?

Whether or not the systems are really bad is irrelevent. THe people are told their way of life is good and there for they don't make trouble for the most part.

It is only when the people haven't been taught that their way of life is fine that they revolt.

When things fall to the point where peoiple can't help but realizethat something is wrong, then you have a revolution.

But for the most part people don't notice anything that goes on around them, they simply accept it and think that their opinion actually matters

elijahcraig
14th September 2003, 21:24
Reaction? WHat in the hell was he going to react to? Lead a revolution against his own father and the rest of the ruling class?

I think that’s the point. He gave ruling class ideology to the peasants and workers, giving them complacency and reactionary beliefs.


You must remember India is a more spiritual place than the rest of the world...something you despretly need to look into.

O fuck that, there is no such thing as “more spiritual” when analyzing through science.



Of course Siddahartha did live hte life of a wanderer and beggar when he could ahve been part of the ruling class, so the man is noble.

The class you are born into determines your path. Bourgeoisie liberals like Gautama, see what they do. “Peace”.


I mean for the msot pa rt these people were looking for a spiritual escape from suffering, not over throwing the aryans.

Take Mencken’s quote from the introduction to the Anti-Christ, “The majority of men prefer delusion to truth.” This is no excuse for praising the bourgeoise Gautama.

Lardlad95
14th September 2003, 21:33
Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2003, 09:24 PM

Reaction? WHat in the hell was he going to react to? Lead a revolution against his own father and the rest of the ruling class?

I think that’s the point. He gave ruling class ideology to the peasants and workers, giving them complacency and reactionary beliefs.


You must remember India is a more spiritual place than the rest of the world...something you despretly need to look into.

O fuck that, there is no such thing as “more spiritual” when analyzing through science.



Of course Siddahartha did live hte life of a wanderer and beggar when he could ahve been part of the ruling class, so the man is noble.

The class you are born into determines your path. Bourgeoisie liberals like Gautama, see what they do. “Peace”.


I mean for the msot pa rt these people were looking for a spiritual escape from suffering, not over throwing the aryans.

Take Mencken’s quote from the introduction to the Anti-Christ, “The majority of men prefer delusion to truth.” This is no excuse for praising the bourgeoise Gautama.
He didn' give them complancency. THe vedic religion, now that taught complancency.

And he didn't just give this to peasants.

His teachings applied to all, not to mention Askoa a ruler of india became a buddhist, so it wasn't just for peasants to keep them inline.

THere was no hiera rchy, in fact Siddahartha condemed such practices.

I mean if you think about it, it was semi stoic because he said allthings are impermanent.

Now this can be used to keep people in line, but so can every other philosophy, religion,political system provided you corrupt it first.

Not to mention Buddhism wasnever a s tate religion so itcouldn't be used by the ruling class.

ANalyzing through science? Look this is philosophy we are talking..take the science to Reddi and spontaneous generation

No in th Vedic religion the class you were born into determines who you are.

...Siddahartha did poor, and a beggar, he was born into teh ruling class, and he converted his entire family to follow his example.

elijahcraig
14th September 2003, 21:40
He didn' give them complancency. THe vedic religion, now that taught complancency.

All religion is taught complacency.


And he didn't just give this to peasants.

His teachings applied to all, not to mention Askoa a ruler of india became a buddhist, so it wasn't just for peasants to keep them inline.

And? George W. Bush is a Christian, this has nothing to do with the point I was making. That the ruling class uses religion to its advantage.


THere was no hiera rchy, in fact Siddahartha condemed such practices.

So did Jesus. Doesn’t mean the ruling class did not two-face this.


I mean if you think about it, it was semi stoic because he said allthings are impermanent.

How long does it take to figure that out?


Now this can be used to keep people in line, but so can every other philosophy, religion,political system provided you corrupt it first.

Then it should be condemned.


Not to mention Buddhism wasnever a s tate religion so itcouldn't be used by the ruling class.

The Dali Lama used it greatly to control people. Christianity is not a state religion today either.


ANalyzing through science? Look this is philosophy we are talking..take the science to Reddi and spontaneous generation

Philosophy is a product of the class structure of society, science encompasses all of these things.


No in th Vedic religion the class you were born into determines who you are.

I understand this.


...Siddahartha did poor, and a beggar, he was born into teh ruling class, and he converted his entire family to follow his example.

Then he was naïve, as Gandhi was, as John Lennon was for all of their “peaceful revolution” talks.

The CPI (M-L) recognizes this beautifully. Read their programme.

synthesis
14th September 2003, 21:44
Not to mention Buddhism wasnever a s tate religion so itcouldn't be used by the ruling class.

What the hell are you talking about? Buddhist (fascist) theocracies have positively flourished in many parts of Asia. I believe one still exists in the feudal state of Bhutan.


Lets be honest people, for the most part Society as a whole is a sheepish mob that believes what they are conditioned to believe.

Hmm, at least this is one belief that bourgeois reformists and Leninists share.

elijahcraig
14th September 2003, 21:46
Let's not start sucking RS's dick just yet you sheepish Dyermaker you.

Lardlad95
14th September 2003, 21:49
Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2003, 09:40 PM

He didn' give them complancency. THe vedic religion, now that taught complancency.

All religion is taught complacency.


And he didn't just give this to peasants.

His teachings applied to all, not to mention Askoa a ruler of india became a buddhist, so it wasn't just for peasants to keep them inline.

And? George W. Bush is a Christian, this has nothing to do with the point I was making. That the ruling class uses religion to its advantage.


THere was no hiera rchy, in fact Siddahartha condemed such practices.

So did Jesus. Doesn’t mean the ruling class did not two-face this.


I mean if you think about it, it was semi stoic because he said allthings are impermanent.

How long does it take to figure that out?


Now this can be used to keep people in line, but so can every other philosophy, religion,political system provided you corrupt it first.

Then it should be condemned.


Not to mention Buddhism wasnever a s tate religion so itcouldn't be used by the ruling class.

The Dali Lama used it greatly to control people. Christianity is not a state religion today either.


ANalyzing through science? Look this is philosophy we are talking..take the science to Reddi and spontaneous generation

Philosophy is a product of the class structure of society, science encompasses all of these things.


No in th Vedic religion the class you were born into determines who you are.

I understand this.


...Siddahartha did poor, and a beggar, he was born into teh ruling class, and he converted his entire family to follow his example.

Then he was naïve, as Gandhi was, as John Lennon was for all of their “peaceful revolution” talks.

The CPI (M-L) recognizes this beautifully. Read their programme.
All religion teaches complacency...

Well marxism denounces the importance of the individual...don't u need complacency from the people for this to work?

Communism can't work with dissent



The state uses religion to it's advantage....

Well racists use science to their advantage...

So what'syour point?



So if it was the ruling class that did it...why is it's Jesus' fault.

He taught a good messege, what did he do wrong if the ruling class hijacked it?

It wasn't that Buddha was the first to say this, he was the first to put this into his life process.

He lived his own philosophies, unlike others who f ial to practice what they preach



So everything that can be corrupted should be condemed? COmmunism can be corrupted..should we condem it?


Ghandi was niave?

I'm sorry, India belongs to Britain still? Cuz last time I checked they were an independent nation.

Ghandi got results...


But hey if you are in favor of revolution I'm sure I could persuade the New black panthers to carry out a revolution against everyone who isn't black...

Lardlad95
14th September 2003, 21:52
Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2003, 09:44 PM

Not to mention Buddhism wasnever a s tate religion so itcouldn't be used by the ruling class.

What the hell are you talking about? Buddhist (fascist) theocracies have positively flourished in many parts of Asia. I believe one still exists in the feudal state of Bhutan.


Lets be honest people, for the most part Society as a whole is a sheepish mob that believes what they are conditioned to believe.

Hmm, at least this is one belief that bourgeois reformists and Leninists share.
....I was reffering to the time after Siddahartha's death.

the type of buddhism that created theocracies o ccured after the four councils which encompassed some 400 somethin years.

Lardlad95
14th September 2003, 21:53
Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2003, 09:46 PM
Let's not start sucking RS's dick just yet you sheepish Dyermaker you.
*laugh*

elijahcraig
14th September 2003, 22:03
All religion teaches complacency...

Well marxism denounces the importance of the individual...don't u need complacency from the people for this to work?

Communism can't work with dissent

No, Marxism teaches the importance of the proletariat. And denounces petty bourgeoise “individuality”. When all own property collectively, individuality can flourish for all.




The state uses religion to it's advantage....

Well racists use science to their advantage...

So what'syour point?

My point is that religion is oppressive. You like to make dodgy comparisons don’t you?

Lardlad95
14th September 2003, 22:07
Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2003, 10:03 PM

All religion teaches complacency...

Well marxism denounces the importance of the individual...don't u need complacency from the people for this to work?

Communism can't work with dissent

No, Marxism teaches the importance of the proletariat. And denounces petty bourgeoise “individuality”. When all own property collectively, individuality can flourish for all.




The state uses religion to it's advantage....

Well racists use science to their advantage...

So what'syour point?

My point is that religion is oppressive. You like to make dodgy comparisons don’t you?
>>>No, Marxism teaches the importance of the proletariat. And denounces petty bourgeoise “individualit y”. When all own property collectively, individuality can flourish for all.<<<

Define petty bourgeoise individuality


Have you read "Brave New World"...I&#39;m sure you have. There will always be someone who desires being a person rather than a cell in a social body.

so I wonder what you mean by petty individuality



Dodgy comparisons?

Religion + corruption= opression

science + corruption= opression

communism + corruption= opression


everytime something becomes corrupted it is opressive. That is my point.

I&#39;m not saying science is bad, but it can be used for bad things, just like religion and communism can

elijahcraig
14th September 2003, 22:11
Define petty bourgeoise individuality

Read Ayn Rand.



Have you read "Brave New World"...I&#39;m sure you have. There will always be someone who desires being a person rather than a cell in a social body.

so I wonder what you mean by petty individuality

That 1/10 of the populace which owns property and wealth, and wants individuality; the other 9/10 have no property and cannot have individuality because they are exploited their whole life. Read the Manifesto.




Dodgy comparisons?

Religion + corruption= opression

science + corruption= opression

communism + corruption= opression


everytime something becomes corrupted it is opressive. That is my point.

I&#39;m not saying science is bad, but it can be used for bad things, just like religion and communism can

What exactly is your point?

Lardlad95
14th September 2003, 22:18
Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2003, 10:11 PM

Define petty bourgeoise individuality

Read Ayn Rand.



Have you read "Brave New World"...I&#39;m sure you have. There will always be someone who desires being a person rather than a cell in a social body.

so I wonder what you mean by petty individuality

That 1/10 of the populace which owns property and wealth, and wants individuality; the other 9/10 have no property and cannot have individuality because they are exploited their whole life. Read the Manifesto.




Dodgy comparisons?

Religion + corruption= opression

science + corruption= opression

communism + corruption= opression


everytime something becomes corrupted it is opressive. That is my point.

I&#39;m not saying science is bad, but it can be used for bad things, just like religion and communism can

What exactly is your point?
I&#39;m not buyin a book so you can avoid defining a key component in your arguement

9/10ths? Are we talking about third world? Because I&#39;m all for liberating Nepal...but remember I"m thinking in terms of my home, so in America that is nothing but a blatant lie....unless of course you did mean in the third world.

Also I&#39;ve read the manifesto...but remember when Marx wrote that. Now I don&#39;t doubt his genius, but how about we get some new socialist economists out there to do some more research.



mypoint is that everything can be opressive if it is corrupted

elijahcraig
14th September 2003, 22:24
I&#39;m not buyin a book so you can avoid defining a key component in your argument

Then read the manifesto, its online.


9/10ths? Are we talking about third world? Because I&#39;m all for liberating Nepal...but remember I"m thinking in terms of my home, so in America that is nothing but a blatant lie....unless of course you did mean in the third world.

I’m not a nationalist, so I analyze things in terms of internationalism, which includes the labor aristocracy.


Also I&#39;ve read the manifesto...but remember when Marx wrote that. Now I don&#39;t doubt his genius, but how about we get some new socialist economists out there to do some more research.

That’s a useless Redstarist statement.




mypoint is that everything can be opressive if it is corrupted

Religion is not EVER non-corrupted. It is a corrupt thing unto itself.

elijahcraig
14th September 2003, 22:33
BTW, here&#39;s a link to the full text: Antichrist (http://www.publicappeal.org/library..._antichrist.htm)

Lardlad95
14th September 2003, 22:38
Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2003, 10:24 PM

I&#39;m not buyin a book so you can avoid defining a key component in your argument

Then read the manifesto, its online.


9/10ths? Are we talking about third world? Because I&#39;m all for liberating Nepal...but remember I"m thinking in terms of my home, so in America that is nothing but a blatant lie....unless of course you did mean in the third world.

I’m not a nationalist, so I analyze things in terms of internationalism, which includes the labor aristocracy.


Also I&#39;ve read the manifesto...but remember when Marx wrote that. Now I don&#39;t doubt his genius, but how about we get some new socialist economists out there to do some more research.

That’s a useless Redstarist statement.




mypoint is that everything can be opressive if it is corrupted

Religion is not EVER non-corrupted. It is a corrupt thing unto itself.
No thanks I&#39;ve got a copy of the manifesto, I keepit on my desk for easy acess...though it&#39;s the version with an intro longer than the damn book



Are you trying to imply that Iam a nationalist? THe way I see things you take out the big cappie countries first and convert the rest later. So down with America, Japan, Britain, and so on

>>>That’s a useless Redstarist statement<<<

When did redstar get his own "ism/ist" termanology?

Also would you preffer we stay stuck in the past? Do you think it&#39;s wise to use marx as the only economist we have?



Religion is corrupt within it&#39;s self?

cop out

elijahcraig
14th September 2003, 22:50
Are you trying to imply that Iam a nationalist? THe way I see things you take out the big cappie countries first and convert the rest later. So down with America, Japan, Britain, and so on

I see it the other way. You can’t have a revolution with a labor aristocracy as its vanguard.


When did redstar get his own "ism/ist" termanology?

I know&#33; About the same time the cult of the personality began to appear.


Also would you preffer we stay stuck in the past? Do you think it&#39;s wise to use marx as the only economist we have?

He is genesis.




Religion is corrupt within it&#39;s self?

cop out

Religion is corrupt always, no matter what it is. It can’t be corrupted, because it is based in essence in corruption. The perversion of reason and logic.

Lardlad95
14th September 2003, 23:28
Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2003, 10:50 PM

Are you trying to imply that Iam a nationalist? THe way I see things you take out the big cappie countries first and convert the rest later. So down with America, Japan, Britain, and so on

I see it the other way. You can’t have a revolution with a labor aristocracy as its vanguard.


When did redstar get his own "ism/ist" termanology?

I know&#33; About the same time the cult of the personality began to appear.


Also would you preffer we stay stuck in the past? Do you think it&#39;s wise to use marx as the only economist we have?

He is genesis.




Religion is corrupt within it&#39;s self?

cop out

Religion is corrupt always, no matter what it is. It can’t be corrupted, because it is based in essence in corruption. The perversion of reason and logic.
But do you think the Us would be so willing to let a revolution occur in a strategic place?

A place they use for cheap labor is not about to fall



Resdstar has a cult now? THe hell? I shouldn&#39;t have left here for that month, i come back and redstar is the head of a cult that threatens to undermine the revolutionary spirit.

My problem is that I was this way before I even spoke to redstar, I&#39;ve been here way longer than he has, and I&#39;m generaly the same as I&#39;ve always been.

So when someone makes an asinine comment that is liberal, or lessens the importanceof marx,lenin,or stalin, or is democratic socialist in nature

could you please replace my name with redstars?


so wait..what about Buddhism...the search fo r inner peace is perverse and corrupt?

Buddhism has nothing to do with Gods, or politics...(even though you claim it does)

So lets look at it&#39;s most basic level..the search for inner peace...how in the hell is that corrupt and perverse

elijahcraig
14th September 2003, 23:38
But do you think the Us would be so willing to let a revolution occur in a strategic place?

A place they use for cheap labor is not about to fall

Willing? Were they willing when China had a revolution? No, that has nothing to do with the subject. Capitalists never “will” revolution.


so wait..what about Buddhism...the search fo r inner peace is perverse and corrupt?

Inner peace is an abstract concept. There is no idealist search, that is an illusion.


Buddhism has nothing to do with Gods, or politics...(even though you claim it does)

It does have to do with politics, the Dali Lama owned 4000 slaves. Religion is used to control. It is an illusion of escape, when you remain a slave in reality.


So lets look at it&#39;s most basic level..the search for inner peace...how in the hell is that corrupt and perverse

I don’t value such nonsense as you just drooled onto the debating board.

Lardlad95
14th September 2003, 23:54
Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2003, 11:38 PM

But do you think the Us would be so willing to let a revolution occur in a strategic place?

A place they use for cheap labor is not about to fall

Willing? Were they willing when China had a revolution? No, that has nothing to do with the subject. Capitalists never “will” revolution.


so wait..what about Buddhism...the search fo r inner peace is perverse and corrupt?

Inner peace is an abstract concept. There is no idealist search, that is an illusion.


Buddhism has nothing to do with Gods, or politics...(even though you claim it does)

It does have to do with politics, the Dali Lama owned 4000 slaves. Religion is used to control. It is an illusion of escape, when you remain a slave in reality.


So lets look at it&#39;s most basic level..the search for inner peace...how in the hell is that corrupt and perverse

I don’t value such nonsense as you just drooled onto the debating board.
When I say willing, I mean are they going to stand idlely by wh ile it happens.

They wont in a place that makes money for them...Having a superpower quelling all revolutions that pop up in places they need isn&#39;t helping the movement. Take out the Big guy, you make it easier across the board. Get the hardest stuff over with first

Inner peace isn&#39;t real? Well if I cna find some way notto be depressed,notto be angry, and not to trouble my self and kill my self mentally with all these problems then I&#39;m going to find thatway.

Innerpeace has nothing to do with some higher power, it&#39;ssimply a way of brining the mind and body into alliance.

Must I explain to you again that tibetan buddhism is simply a sect....like democratic socialism is sect of socialism....you hate democratic socialsim, but that doesn&#39;t mean socialism is within it&#39;s self is bad.

though i can&#39;t possibly understand what you have against Demsocialism

elijahcraig
15th September 2003, 00:44
When I say willing, I mean are they going to stand idlely by wh ile it happens.

They wont in a place that makes money for them...Having a superpower quelling all revolutions that pop up in places they need isn&#39;t helping the movement. Take out the Big guy, you make it easier across the board. Get the hardest stuff over with first

The Capitalist never stands by. That is why revolution is needed. I don’t support your method of getting “socialism”.


Inner peace isn&#39;t real? Well if I cna find some way notto be depressed,notto be angry, and not to trouble my self and kill my self mentally with all these problems then I&#39;m going to find thatway.

That’s called escapism. That’s nothing but dodging reality by using idealism as an excuse.


Innerpeace has nothing to do with some higher power, it&#39;ssimply a way of brining the mind and body into alliance.

It is a way of giving up.


Must I explain to you again that tibetan buddhism is simply a sect....like democratic socialism is sect of socialism....you hate democratic socialsim, but that doesn&#39;t mean socialism is within it&#39;s self is bad.

Religion is all bad.


though i can&#39;t possibly understand what you have against Demsocialism

The ideology of non-Marxists is what I am against.

redstar2000
15th September 2003, 00:54
Murky waters, eh elijah?

The problem, as always, is discussing Nietzsche&#39;s ideas outside of a knowledge of German class society in the 19th century.

Nietzsche&#39;s ideas were a hostile reaction to the rise of capitalism in that country...which developed explosively in that period.

It wasn&#39;t really religion in general that he disliked; what he despised was the "milk-and-water" Christianity of the period...the spectacle of the new bourgeoisie taking up a collection for charity to the "poor".

In his view, "inferiors" were fit for slavery or death, period.

Overall, his ideas were well within the mainstream of German romanticism; reactionary opponents of the French Revolution and everything that it implied.

What made him "scandalous" was that he took those reactionary ideas to their logical conclusions; if other reactionaries merely wished to restore the feudal order in all its "glory", Nietzsche wanted to go back even further...to legendary pagan times when the "strong" ruled by the "strength of their own arms".

H.L. Mencken was indeed a kind of "watered-down" version of Neitzche...call him Nietzsche-lite. A German-American journalist and linguist of the first half of the 20th century, he shared Nietzsche&#39;s contempt for the "masses" but was unwilling to follow him all the way back to 100BCE, settling for a "new 13th century".

Another difference: Nietzsche was genuinely angry with the new order of things; Mencken was resigned to its inevitability and merely hoped that it would someday crash and burn, giving the "superman" his chance.

Other differences: Nietzsche was not anti-semitic and not a German "nationalist". Mencken was both.

Finally, Mencken was definitely an atheist--his Treatise on the Gods is an exploration of the "natural causes" of religion which owes little or nothing to Nietzsche&#39;s ideas. I frankly suspect that Nietzsche was what the Nazis would later refer to as a "God-Believer"...or wanted to be.

A minor point, elijah...does anyone who ever says anything with which I might agree become, on that basis, "a redstarist"???

A not-so-minor-point: This thing you have about the working class being mostly "sheep" is leading you into some very strange company, is it not?

http://www.sawu.org/redgreenleft/YaBBImages/smoking.gif
___________________________

U.S. GET OUT OF IRAQ NOW&#33;
___________________________

"...a disgusting and frightening website"
The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.sawu.org/redstar2000)
A site about communist ideas

elijahcraig
15th September 2003, 01:10
Murky waters, eh elijah?

What?


A minor point, elijah...does anyone who ever says anything with which I might agree become, on that basis, "a redstarist"???

No, just your most hardcore Lackeys.


A not-so-minor-point: This thing you have about the working class being mostly "sheep" is leading you into some very strange company, is it not?

I don’t consider Nietzsche strange, I was reading him before I read Marx.

And don’t twist that you little *****.

synthesis
15th September 2003, 01:13
Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2003, 09:46 PM
Let&#39;s not start sucking RS&#39;s dick just yet you sheepish Dyermaker you.
This is coming from the king of ideological leeches and dilettantes. I could also make similar homophobic accusations about you and certain other Stalinists - but why bother?

Like redstar said: Just because I share one opinion with him means nothing. The fact that you immediately associate a statement of mine with previous statements made by him (in other threads, might I add - I said what I did long before redstar probably even viewed this thread) is quite suspect.

Both Leninists and social-democratic reformists share the idea that the working class needs to be led by a state vanguard through the revolution and into communism.

I don&#39;t. I&#39;m not the first to have this idea, but I arrived at it by myself. Perhaps you should make the same accusations towards Rosa Luxemburg.

She, too, said such things long before Redstar2000 did.

elijahcraig
15th September 2003, 01:17
This is coming from the king of ideological leeches and dilettantes. I could also make similar homophobic accusations about you and certain other Stalinists - but why bother?

You shouldn’t, I’m Bisexual.


Like redstar said: Just because I share one opinion with him means nothing. The fact that you immediately associate a statement of mine with previous statements made by him (in other threads, might I add - I said what I did long before redstar probably even viewed this thread) is quite suspect.

Ok, fine I’ll worship with you, HAIL REDSTAR&#33; KING OF THE VERMIN&#33;


Both Leninists and social-democratic reformists share the idea that the working class needs to be led by a state vanguard through the revolution and into communism.

Which section is that in the RedStarist Manifesto? I can’t remember.


I don&#39;t. I&#39;m not the first to have this idea, but I arrived at it by myself. Perhaps you should make the same accusations towards Rosa Luxemburg - but then that would make you a necrophiliac as well as a closeted homosexual.

Necrophilia? Never tried it.

synthesis
15th September 2003, 01:23
Whatever. The fact that you vanguardists expect your ideas to go unchallenged and then attempt to belittle anyone not sharing them should clue logical human beings into the state of mind necessary to reach vanguardism.

I notice you never actually disagreed with me, you merely made a pathetic ad homenim attack without even attempting to construct the trappings of a real debate. Sad.

Lardlad95
15th September 2003, 01:24
Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2003, 12:44 AM

When I say willing, I mean are they going to stand idlely by wh ile it happens.

They wont in a place that makes money for them...Having a superpower quelling all revolutions that pop up in places they need isn&#39;t helping the movement. Take out the Big guy, you make it easier across the board. Get the hardest stuff over with first

The Capitalist never stands by. That is why revolution is needed. I don’t support your method of getting “socialism”.


Inner peace isn&#39;t real? Well if I cna find some way notto be depressed,notto be angry, and not to trouble my self and kill my self mentally with all these problems then I&#39;m going to find thatway.

That’s called escapism. That’s nothing but dodging reality by using idealism as an excuse.


Innerpeace has nothing to do with some higher power, it&#39;ssimply a way of brining the mind and body into alliance.

It is a way of giving up.


Must I explain to you again that tibetan buddhism is simply a sect....like democratic socialism is sect of socialism....you hate democratic socialsim, but that doesn&#39;t mean socialism is within it&#39;s self is bad.

Religion is all bad.


though i can&#39;t possibly understand what you have against Demsocialism

The ideology of non-Marxists is what I am against.
Yes...well taking over a third world nation and becoming a corrupt dictator isn&#39;t how I see getting socialism...but hey if thats what you want

dodging reality? Come on, the reality is that the human mind a powerful tool that needs to be mastered

and come on religion isn&#39;t all bad, those Jewish folks make some dman fine food

elijahcraig
15th September 2003, 01:35
Whatever. The fact that you vanguardists expect your ideas to go unchallenged and then attempt to belittle anyone not sharing them should clue logical human beings into the state of mind necessary to reach vanguardism.

Fact? What fact? I expect my ideas to be challenged, but they will be smashed. Debate within the party is fine. I don’t consider fascists, capitalists, etc., people worthy of democratic processes with.


I notice you never actually disagreed with me, you merely made a pathetic ad homenim attack without even attempting to construct the trappings of a real debate. Sad.

I’ve been through this so many times, I don’t need to argue with two Red Stars.

And talk about “ad homenim” attacks, you called me a homophobe, a closet homosexual, a necrophiliac, and a remformist, a fascist too, I can’t remember, all in two paragraphs&#33;


Yes...well taking over a third world nation and becoming a corrupt dictator isn&#39;t how I see getting socialism...but hey if thats what you want

Yeah, that’s what I said. (…..)


dodging reality? Come on, the reality is that the human mind a powerful tool that needs to be mastered

?


and come on religion isn&#39;t all bad, those Jewish folks make some dman fine food

Yes it is and yes they do.

synthesis
15th September 2003, 01:37
This doesn&#39;t really apply to Buddhism, so in one regard, you&#39;re right, Lardlad, but it is still very applicable to most religions with a notable relationship to the West today, such as Islam, Christianity, and Judaism.

"A boss in Heaven is the greatest excuse for a boss on Earth. I reverse the phrase of Voltaire and say that if God really did exist, it would be necessary to abolish him."
-Bakunin

elijahcraig
15th September 2003, 01:43
This doesn&#39;t really apply to Buddhism, so in one regard, you&#39;re right, Lardlad, but it is still very applicable to most religions with a notable relationship to the West today, such as Islam, Christianity, and Judaism.

"A boss in Heaven is the greatest excuse for a boss on Earth. I reverse the phrase of Voltaire and say that if God really did exist, it would be necessary to abolish him."
-Bakunin

Buddhism relies on absolutes. It applies.

Lardlad95
15th September 2003, 01:49
Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2003, 01:43 AM

This doesn&#39;t really apply to Buddhism, so in one regard, you&#39;re right, Lardlad, but it is still very applicable to most religions with a notable relationship to the West today, such as Islam, Christianity, and Judaism.

"A boss in Heaven is the greatest excuse for a boss on Earth. I reverse the phrase of Voltaire and say that if God really did exist, it would be necessary to abolish him."
-Bakunin

Buddhism relies on absolutes. It applies.
How can it relyon absolutes if it teaches that all things are impermanent

elijahcraig
15th September 2003, 01:54
Impermanence has nothing to do with absolutes.

Lardlad95
15th September 2003, 02:00
Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2003, 01:54 AM
Impermanence has nothing to do with absolutes.
explain

elijahcraig
15th September 2003, 02:02
Explain how it does.
It makes no sense to me.

synthesis
15th September 2003, 02:06
If all things are impermanent, then logically there can be no permanent sense of absolute morality, or really of any absolutes at all.

elijahcraig
15th September 2003, 02:19
If all things are impermanent, then logically there can be no permanent sense of absolute morality, or really of any absolutes at all.

Absolute morality has nothing to do with permanent lengths of time.

For example, Buddhists say that killing is wrong. Does this absolute moral change once the time in which it is said changes?



Would a Buddhist ever say that killing is right?

Lardlad95
15th September 2003, 02:28
Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2003, 02:19 AM

If all things are impermanent, then logically there can be no permanent sense of absolute morality, or really of any absolutes at all.

Absolute morality has nothing to do with permanent lengths of time.

For example, Buddhists say that killing is wrong. Does this absolute moral change once the time in which it is said changes?



Would a Buddhist ever say that killing is right?
Maybe, thatwould assume that there ever came a point when killing would change from bad to good.

but since nothing is permanent then that point must come eventually so yes a buddhist may very well end up saying that

elijahcraig
15th September 2003, 02:36
Maybe, thatwould assume that there ever came a point when killing would change from bad to good.

but since nothing is permanent then that point must come eventually so yes a buddhist may very well end up saying that

That is not in line with ANY teachings of the Buddha.

synthesis
15th September 2003, 02:43
Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2003, 02:19 AM

If all things are impermanent, then logically there can be no permanent sense of absolute morality, or really of any absolutes at all.

Absolute morality has nothing to do with permanent lengths of time.

For example, Buddhists say that killing is wrong. Does this absolute moral change once the time in which it is said changes?



Would a Buddhist ever say that killing is right?
That makes sense.

However, the lack of a higher governing being does make it incompatible with Bakunin&#39;s criticism.

...Nevertheless, Buddhism does seem to be pretty good at producing totalitarian fascists, so maybe an absolutist set of morals does lead to dictatorships, like it has with Islam and Christianity.

Who knows?

Lardlad95
15th September 2003, 02:46
Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2003, 02:36 AM

Maybe, thatwould assume that there ever came a point when killing would change from bad to good.

but since nothing is permanent then that point must come eventually so yes a buddhist may very well end up saying that

That is not in line with ANY teachings of the Buddha.
The buddha taught right actions....what is right isn&#39;t absolute, what is right changes like all other things

so if killing ever became right it would go along witht eh teachings of right actions

elijahcraig
15th September 2003, 03:07
That makes sense.

However, the lack of a higher governing being does make it incompatible with Bakunin&#39;s criticism.

...Nevertheless, Buddhism does seem to be pretty good at producing totalitarian fascists, so maybe an absolutist set of morals does lead to dictatorships, like it has with Islam and Christianity.

Who knows?

Bakunin was speaking of absolutes, it, once again, applies.

Though it is true that Bakunin’s “God and the State” was directed at Christianity.


The buddha taught right actions....what is right isn&#39;t absolute, what is right changes like all other things

so if killing ever became right it would go along witht eh teachings of right actions

Here is a quote from the Buddha:

“Now this, monks, is the noble truth of pain:
birth is painful; old age is painful;
sickness is painful; death is painful;
sorrow, lamentation, dejection, and despair are painful.
Contact with unpleasant things is painful;
not getting what one wishes is painful.
In short the five groups of grasping are painful.

Now this, monks, is the noble truth of the cause of pain:
the craving, which leads to rebirth,
combined with pleasure and lust,
finding pleasure here and there,
namely the craving for passion,
the craving for existence,
and the craving for non-existence.

Now this, monks, is the noble truth
of the cessation of pain:
the cessation without a remainder of craving,
the abandonment, forsaking, release, and non-attachment.

Now this, monks, is the noble truth
of the way that leads to the cessation of pain:
this is the noble eightfold way, namely,
correct understanding, correct intention,
correct speech, correct action, correct livelihood,
correct attention, correct concentration,
and correct meditation.”

These are the “Noble Truths”, ie: absolute truths. Buddha preached non-action.

redstar2000
15th September 2003, 08:23
I don’t consider Nietzsche strange, I was reading him before I read Marx.

It shows.

http://www.sawu.org/redgreenleft/YaBBImages/smoking.gif
___________________________

U.S. GET OUT OF IRAQ NOW&#33;
___________________________

"...a disgusting and frightening website"
The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.sawu.org/redstar2000)
A site about communist ideas

elijahcraig
15th September 2003, 22:20
Hence the comment, “Don’t twist that you little *****.”