Public Schools Suck

[Dimitri Molotov]

A few days ago, me and 2 other of my anarcho-communist friends at my high school noticed the school web filter censors the word "anarchy" or any phrase with the word in it in any search engine!!! We already hate that damn web filter as it is because we are anti-censorship of course and doing research is a pain in the ass with access to only the information they want us to know, but this took it to a whole other level. It didn't just block the individual links on the search engine results page, it literally just blocked the entire results page. The reason for it being blocked according to the computer was "extremist/militant/terrorism"! WTF!!! So my one friend decided to see if joinalqaeda.com was blocked on the computer, it wasn't. That resulted in the teacher coming up to the three of us and asking what we were doing on that website, and my smart ass friend replies "I'm just trying to join al qaeda, get off my ass bro!" That landed him in suspension for obvious reasons, so me and my other friend were on our own. We were pretty sure joinalqaeda.com is a joke site, but it doesn't matter. We decided to go to the school library to read about Ho Chi Minh or something, and we noticed that the "Book Suggestions List", that me and my friends made an effort to fill with leftist books, like the manifesto, the little red book, guerrilla warfare, etc... WAS RIPPED OFF THE WALL, while all of the other book suggestions were still there. This pissed us off, and we went right to the guidance counselor because we didn't really know who was in charge of this sort of thing. He told us "the state says it is the school's obligation to protect us from anything violent or that implies violence", even though we play dodge ball and wrestling in gym, learn about the weapons of WWI in history, and things like that. I also tried to explain to him how anarchy does not teach violence, terrorism or anything like that, it is just a stereotype and it actually teaches values like equality, self sufficiency, free thinking and organization without a leader or commander, and teamwork. I asked him what happened if someone wants to learn about anarchy, tries to search it, and the only impression they get of it is militant terrorism? This whole conversation ended up turning into an hour and a half debate about Somalia, and my parent's jobs. Finally, he told us to speak to the tech guy at our school, who was almost impossible to track down. We spoke to him, and he said he would talk to the vice principal about it, and see why it is blocked and possibly unblock it. There are about 5 Marxists, 2-4 socialists, and about 10 or 11 anarchists, some of them being anarcho communists in the whole high school. It is allot more than most schools in our area, but nothing compared to the heavy population of conservative ignoramuses in the school. Most of my friends turn to me for anything that has to do with politics because I pretty much dedicate my life to it so far. I debate with teachers all of the time and I usually stump them, even though I usually end up in the office because they are sick of my outspokenness. Sorry for the long and drawn out unnecessary story, but what do you guys think of that whole situation?

[wunderbar]

You probably would have had this same experience at a private school.

[Koba1917]

Most Public schools are much more diverse than Private schools. Mostly the Christian private schools are probably the scarier ones.. But with my time in Public schools I never had a problem with this. I do live in a more Socially Liberal town though. Also don't forget. You still live in the good ol' USA ;).

[dernier combat]

I mean no offence, but did you actually think that books by the likes of Marx, Mao and Che would ever be distributed to students at all?

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Yeah,public schools suck,for it is the reason I decided to drop out and enter night school instead;where the teachers actually have to treat you as an adult,and can't just punish you via principal if you trump them in debate.Plus with a GED the state pays you to go to college (at least in my state).

Point is public (and private) schools are a den of conservative,imperialist,scum,that only know how to discriminate and cause trouble.

AS for the reading list....I dunno,I guess you should have seen that coming,since the other students really have nothing better to do than to make trouble.To be fair,the same thing probably would have happened with any other ideology that went against the established norm.

Just power on through,and try your best to ignore the morons,while spreading enlightenment.

[brigadista]

A few days ago, me and 2 other of my anarcho-communist friends at my high school noticed the school web filter censors the word "anarchy" or any phrase with the word in it in any search engine!!! We already hate that damn web filter as it is because we are anti-censorship of course and doing research is a pain in the ass with access to only the information they want us to know, but this took it to a whole other level. It didn't just block the individual links on the search engine results page, it literally just blocked the entire results page. The reason for it being blocked according to the computer was "extremist/militant/terrorism"! WTF!!! So my one friend decided to see if joinalqaeda.com was blocked on the computer, it wasn't. That resulted in the teacher coming up to the three of us and asking what we were doing on that website, and my smart ass friend replies "I'm just trying to join al qaeda, get off my ass bro!" That landed him in suspension for obvious reasons, so me and my other friend were on our own. We were pretty sure joinalqaeda.com is a joke site, but it doesn't matter. We decided to go to the school library to read about Ho Chi Minh or something, and we noticed that the "Book Suggestions List", that me and my friends made an effort to fill with leftist books, like the manifesto, the little red book, guerrilla warfare, etc... WAS RIPPED OFF THE WALL, while all of the other book suggestions were still there. This pissed us off, and we went right to the guidance counselor because we didn't really know who was in charge of this sort of thing. He told us "the state says it is the school's obligation to protect us from anything violent or that implies violence", even though we play dodge ball and wrestling in gym, learn about the weapons of WWI in history, and things like that. I also tried to explain to him how anarchy does not teach violence, terrorism or anything like that, it is just a stereotype and it actually teaches values like equality, self sufficiency, free thinking and organization without a leader or commander, and teamwork. I asked him what happened if someone wants to learn about anarchy, tries to search it, and the only impression they get of it is militant terrorism? This whole conversation ended up turning into an hour and a half debate about Somalia, and my parent's jobs. Finally, he told us to speak to the tech guy at our school, who was almost impossible to track down. We spoke to him, and he said he would talk to the vice principal about it, and see why it is blocked and possibly unblock it. There are about 5 Marxists, 2-4 socialists, and about 10 or 11 anarchists, some of them being anarcho communists in the whole high school. It is allot more than most schools in our area, but nothing compared to the heavy population of conservative ignoramuses in the school. Most of my friends turn to me for anything that has to do with politics because I pretty much dedicate my life to it so far. I debate with teachers all of the time and I usually stump them, even though I usually end up in the office because they are sick of my outspokenness. Sorry for the long and drawn out unnecessary story, but what do you guys think of that whole situation?

admire your persistence

[Revolutionair]

I studied at a public school and my history teacher was an anarchist, my math teacher a democratic socialist and my Dutch teacher some kind of stuck-in-the-past-around-the-70s pseudo-socialist hippy activist. :thumbup1:

[gorillafuck]

Why do you care so much that books by Mao weren't allowed on the book suggestions liist? Did you legitimately not see that coming? It's not as if your school would become full of Maoist guerrillas if Guerrilla Warfare was on the book suggestion list.

And really is it so pivotal that people can look up "anarchy" at school? I mean honestly if anyone cares about anarchism then they can look it up at home or local library, it doesn't matter what's blocked on the school filter.

Chill out, you're making it seem like there's been some injustice when really this isn't even worth a second thought.

[Rafiq]

Public schools are not nearly as bad as private ones. We live in a Bourgeois State, we have to get over it. Just be happy you're not in private school where you are brainwashed and indoctrinated even worse bullshit. At least in public schools, some teachers might be leftist.

Public School IS there to indocrinate and fill people's heads with vile bourgeois propaganda, but if you ask me, all private schools should be shut down...

[thesadmafioso]

High School class struggle, serious stuff.

Honestly though, I had similar experiences in high school myself and they are really quite useless. Certainly good for a laugh or two, but you can't expect to really accomplish anything through tampering with a suggested book list or through searching for anarchism on your schools computers. Classroom debates are quite useless as well, you are simply not in a position in such a situation where you will be able to have much of an impact on the minds of a class. A teacher generally holds a great deal more authority and credibility in any sort of discussion, and you will likely find it difficult to advance thought which will be more or less indecipherable to the vast majority of the class.

You have to keep in mind that most of your fellow classmates hardly care to read the books they are actually assigned, let alone anything beyond that. Most of the children that make up your schools population are likely unable to make sense out of the predominant ideology of contemporary American society, which does not exactly put them into a position where they will be able to be make sense out of leftist ideology.

[Spartacus.]

Why do you care so much that books by Mao weren't allowed on the book suggestions liist? Did you legitimately not see that coming? It's not as if your school would become full of Maoist guerrillas if Guerrilla Warfare was on the book suggestion list.

And really is it so pivotal that people can look up "anarchy" at school? I mean honestly if anyone cares about anarchism then they can look it up at home or local library, it doesn't matter what's blocked on the school filter.

Chill out, you're making it seem like there's been some injustice when really this isn't even worth a second thought.


It is important because it tells a lot about so much famed bourgeous "freedom" and "democracy" that is being propagated all over the world. When something like this happens in a socialist country it is called "brainwashing", "indoctrination" and "totalitarianism", but in West it is called "freedom of information". :laugh:

And it is not only a point about information being available at home computer or somewhere else. The problem is that in "theory" schools should be a place for learning, not for hiding knowledge from students. If young people are prevented from getting aquinted with Marxist ideas, they will easily fall prey to the rightist propaganda that is being spread all over society and they will never have opportunity to even seriously think about how justified and necessary is current capitalist terror. Instead, all they will know is that Stalin has killed 20 million people :laugh: and that socialism was a complete failure without any relevance in the XXI century. :lol:

[gorillafuck]

It is important because it tells a lot about so much famed bourgeous "freedom" and "democracy" that is being propagated all over the world. When something like this happens in a socialist country it is called "brainwashing", "indoctrination" and "totalitarianism", but in West it is called "freedom of information".No it doesn't, it's a public high school book suggestions list. It doesn't tell anything about anything other than what books the school finds appropriate to suggest. It's not an example of actual capitalist repression.


And it is not only a point about information being available at home computer or somewhere else. The problem is that in "theory" schools should be a place for learning, not for hiding knowledge from students.Students wouldn't look up anarchy on google or read Maos Little Red Book anyway.

Who here was introduced to radical politics through their schools suggested reading list?


If young people are prevented from getting aquinted with Marxist ideas, they will easily fall prey to the rightist propaganda that is being spread all over society and they will never have opportunity to even seriously think about how justified and necessary is current capitalist terror.Public schools don't teach about how capitalism should be overthrown. I don't see why you think this is worth fussing over.

Also this doesn't belong in a forum for social discrimination.

[Spartacus.]

No it doesn't, it's a public high school book suggestions list. It doesn't tell anything about anything other than what books the school finds appropriate to suggest. It's not an example of actual capitalist repression.


Yes, it is. If you had actually bothered to carefully read what the thread starter said, you would have noticed that the list was not made by the school, but by the students themself and that it was removed by the school authorities.

Take attention:



We decided to go to the school library to read about Ho Chi Minh or something, and we noticed that the "Book Suggestions List", that me and my friends made an effort to fill with leftist books, like the manifesto, the little red book, guerrilla warfare, etc... WAS RIPPED OFF THE WALL, while all of the other book suggestions were still there.This pissed us off, and we went right to the guidance counselor because we didn't really know who was in charge of this sort of thing. He told us "the state says it is the school's obligation to protect us from anything violent or that implies violence"

So the state told the school authorities to "protect" :rolleyes: poor, vulnerable students from anything that might be considered "dangerous" for the welfare of the ruling capitalist elite. True, that is not example of any serious repression, but it still shows how authorities try with all means possible to prevent students from coming in touch with any radical ideas. If you were following situation in Venezuela, you may remember the outcry that was made when Chavez government try to introduce "socialist" education which recomends reading books from Marx, Lenin, Che Guevara etc; and the accusation by some that students are being brainwashed. It's ironic, don't you agree. :D


Students wouldn't look up anarchy on google or read Maos Little Red Book anyway.

Well they have looked for anarchy on Google. And they were censored.:rolleyes:


A few days ago, me and 2 other of my anarcho-communist friends at my high school noticed the school web filter censors the word "anarchy" or any phrase with the word in it in any search engine!!! We already hate that damn web filter as it is because we are anti-censorship of course and doing research is a pain in the ass with access to only the information they want us to know, but this took it to a whole other level. It didn't just block the individual links on the search engine results page, it literally just blocked the entire results page.

And how could they want to read Mao's books when they are taught that Mao "killed" 70 million people? :lol:


Public schools don't teach about how capitalism should be overthrown. I don't see why you think this is worth fussing over.

Public schools don't teach children even about how capitalism really functions, not to mention overthrowing it. I'm not making fuss, but from what I understand, American schools are famous for indoctrinating children in anti-communism and this little example only shows a much wider tendency for supressing any Communist/Anarchist/Socialist "subversion" of educational system. I was raised in the capitalist educational system in the former socialist country, but we still had an opportunity to learn who was Marx and what was he really standing for. We didn't have to look outside school books to learn that Communism/Anarchism isn't an extremist, militant and terrorist ideology. :lol:

The reason for it being blocked according to the computer was "extremist/militant/terrorism"! WTF!!!

I think this is not pointless, especially if we know the official US doctrine of being the fortress of "freedom" and "democracy". :)

[Leonid Brozhnev]

admire your persistence

Have to agree there. A school should be there to Teach, filtering of subjects such as Marxism, Communism and Anarchism outside the bias of you tutor or the school system as a whole should be against your right to education.

Shame when I was at high school I missed the year in History where they talked about the Russian Revolution, I would have liked to have heard my teachers views on the subject of communism. Most likely they would have taken the western textbook stance of it being a brutal totalitarian system without any real views of their own.

[Bright Banana Beard]

Private schools suck even way more than Public schools. At least there is some communist teachers in public school while private school mostly lack them.

[L.A.P.]

I was about to go to a Catholic private school because of its better reputation and the school I went to sucked, but then I looked up the curriculum and saw how much of a joke it was especially since there weren't any electives available and theology class was actually just Bible study class. Private schools are meant to shelter kids from reality and in turn make them worse off, even my conservative history teacher said "Private schools don't prepare you for reality because not everyone is rich and white". I would rather go to a public school in Compton than go to a private school in Beverly Hills.

[BeerShaman]

My former religions' teacher was a commie. We've been together on strikes and marches! Ahah!:D
A great guy!

And buddy, don't listen to what some people say... I'm also on high school. I'm a communist. Left commie-lib- marxist smth like that. And generally we are about 2 anarchists, 3 to 4 socialist not know enough humanist girls and 6 leninists on school. We can't even cooperate! And every day that passes I realize how important our stance is. Without us there, nothing would happen. The fellow students feel our presence and are influenced, even if it's not deep. We are something that matters and kinda headache to our f-king hypocrite reformist pseudo leftist headmaster. Just talk all the time and make little steps and sacrifices like little class discussions, pushing some teachers and stuff now and then. Even if you don't see results insantly, know that day by day your fellows are gonna wake up and start changing their minds. I've already seen it hapeening.

[Geiseric]

I think of this stuff sometimes too, since I have the same problem, just remember that you know better than the student body and you can correct the lesson, website whatever on your own time like on the bus or at lunch if it's really that much off. I wish there were anarcho communists at my school though man! The kids who think they know about politics piss me off so much that I hang out with the football players every other day now.

[GX.]

I wasn't quite sure why this was in discrimination at first, but then I thought about the role private schools have played in resegregation.

[NGNM85]

It is important because it tells a lot about so much famed bourgeous "freedom" and "democracy" that is being propagated all over the world. When something like this happens in a socialist country it is called "brainwashing", "indoctrination" and "totalitarianism", but in West it is called "freedom of information".

This is bullshit.

First of all, there is no civil rights issue here. These are high school students, minors. Therefore, because of their age they do not have all the rights and privileges of adults. They also can’t buy guns, or liquor. Comes with the territory. Once they turn 18, they will be able to enjoy the fact that the United States has the broadest definition of free speech on earth.
Second, to call this 'brainwashing' is to court absurdity.


And it is not only a point about information being available at home computer or somewhere else. The problem is that in "theory" schools should be a place for learning, not for hiding knowledge from students.

I’m sure the curriculum also doesn’t include Japanese rock gardening or Tantric sex.


If young people are prevented from getting aquinted with Marxist ideas, they will easily fall prey to the rightist propaganda that is being spread all over society and they will never have opportunity to even seriously think about how justified and necessary is current capitalist terror.

I have a number of criticisms of public school curricula, but from the sounds of it, you just seem to be pissed that they’re not being indoctrinated in your ideology.


Instead, all they will know is that Stalin has killed 20 million people and that socialism was a complete failure without any relevance in the XXI century.

Please tell me that you aren’t making the argument that Stalin ‘only’ killed X million people…

[StalinFanboy]

I mean no offence, but did you actually think that books by the likes of Marx, Mao and Che would ever be distributed to students at all?

The Communist Manifesto was in my high school's library

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

This is bullshit.

First of all, there is no civil rights issue here. These are high school students, minors. Therefore, because of their age they do not have all the rights and privileges of adults. They also can’t buy guns, or liquor. Comes with the territory. Once they turn 18, they will be able to enjoy the fact that the United States has the broadest definition of free speech on earth.

Since when does being under some arbitrary age limit make it acceptable to restrict access to political information? Do you actually support the idea of depriving some people of rights freely given to others based merely on chronological age?

What the fuck kind of anarchist are you, anyway?

[NGNM85]

Since when does being under some arbitrary age limit make it acceptable to restrict access to political information?

First of all, that is an extremely slanted characterization. As memory serves, the OP had two major grievances;

First, that the web-filters on the school computers prevented him from accessing Anarchist websites. While I did this regularly at my High School, I can't say I'm particularly surprised, nor do I see it as particularly egregious. Of course school computers are going to have web filters. This shouldn't come as a shock to anyone. Frankly, I can also see some validity in having web filters on school computers.

His second grievance, as I understand it, is that the school declined to order or provide various radical literature, including Mao’s Red Book, and Che Guevara’s Guerilla Warfare. (I presume they also don’t carry the Satanic Bible, Steal This Book!, or Jenna Jameson’s How to Fuck Like A Porn Star.) I see no reason why a public high school is required to provide these texts. (Especially Guerilla Warfare.) Honestly, it’s also somewhat ridiculous to cry foul that they did not do so.

Finally, and this goes on both counts, the OP was never, ever prevented from accessing this information. The aforementioned texts and his Anarchist websites are accessible for free at his local public library.


Do you actually support the idea of depriving some people of rights freely given to others based merely on chronological age?

I believe all exercises of authority should have to meet a burden of proof as to it's legitimacy. In many cases, one will find it is illegitimate, but not all cases. I think it is perfectly reasonable that children are not able to vote, or buy alcohol, or firearms, or get elected to congress, that they should have curfews, etc. That meets the burden of proof.


What the fuck kind of anarchist are you, anyway?

Oh please. This is really disappointing. I’ve never known you to be hysterical. If need be, you can conduct some ideological purity test, however, my views tend to reside pretty squarely in the center of the spectrum of Anarchist philosophy.

[RadioRaheem84]

You are probably the most pro-establishment Anarchist I have ever met.

I don't think it matters that the OP can access information on Anarchism at his local public library, but that his school and the State limited his access to leftist texts. That says a lot.

Yet, you don't even seem fazed by this because you seem to just presuppose that the laws restricting information in schools are sound and then proceeded to throw in how it's foolish for us to cry foul because the US has the broadest free speech rights in the world, as if that is supposed to make a difference.

At least Zeekloid disagreed with the OP because he knew that those books wouldn't make the cut in public schools because of country's marginalization of leftist texts (which would be stronger in pubic schools). But you're simply stating that they wouldn't carry those books because they're obscene or inappropriate for kids?? Comparing them to a book written by a porn star??

On top of that you talk as if there is less of a case for complaint here because high school kids are not legally adults?

[Meridian]

Once they turn 18, they will be able to enjoy the fact that the United States has the broadest definition of free speech on earth.
That's not true at all.

[NGNM85]

That's not true at all.

Actually, it is. However, if you want you can try to produce one example of another country with broader protections for free speech. I've saved you the trouble, but you are free to confirm what I said.

[NGNM85]

You are probably the most pro-establishment Anarchist I have ever met.

I am in no way ‘pro-establishment.’


You I don't think it matters that the OP can access information on Anarchism at his local public library,

I think it does. First, in a general sense, because I tend to like the idea that people can access magazines, newspapers, literature, etc, for free, regardless of wealth, or whatever.

Second, it matters because people are acting like he can’t get these books, which is utter nonsense. He’s really never been significantly prevented from reading them.


You but that his school and the State limited his access to leftist texts. That says a lot.

Cut the crap. That isn’t what this is about. Of course his school library has Left-wing literature. He was put out because he was specifically looking for Mao’s Red Book, and Guerilla Warfare. I wouldn’t expect to find either of those books in a school library, especially Guerilla Warfare, which really has no legitimate educational value. Yet, we still have to be subjected to fake outrage.


Yet, you don't even seem fazed by this because you seem to just presuppose that the laws restricting information in schools are sound

Should high school students (Or Elementary/Junior High School students) have total unfettered access from school computers? I really don’t think so.


and then proceeded to throw in how it's foolish for us to cry foul because the US has the broadest free speech rights in the world, as if that is supposed to make a difference.

No, Spartacus implied that this was part of some kind of 1984-style state censorship. I was merely pointing out that that this is not just slightly wrong, but really wrong.

You can feel however you want about the status of free speech in the United States. I have a number of grievances, but the lack of censorship isn’t one of them.


At least Zeekloid disagreed with the OP because he knew that those books wouldn't make the cut in public schools because of country's marginalization of leftist texts (which would be stronger in pubic schools). But you're simply stating that they wouldn't carry those books because they're obscene or inappropriate for kids??


Comparing them to a book written by a porn star??

First; one could compile a voluminous list of books his high school doesn’t carry, in fact, it’s quite likely his high school library doesn’t carry most books ever written, that does not necessarily equal censorship. Second, I think Jenna Jameson’s book is much more defensible, in this context, than Guerilla Warfare. (Incidentally, I read Guerilla Warfare when I was in High School, but I never expected my high school to procure it for me, nor did I have the audacity to demand that they do so.)


On top of that you talk as if there is less of a case for complaint here because high school kids are not legally adults?

I was responding to NoXion, who, surprisingly, asked, with apparent incredulity, if I was seriously suggesting that children shouldn’t have all the same rights as adults just because they’re, well, children. Guilty as charged. I also think that’s a very sound point.

I don’t see really any reason for legitimate complaint, here. I do have several complaints about the public school system, but that's beside the point.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Please don't take this the wrong way, but Verdana is the default font of this forum, and black is the default text colour. There is no need to constantly wrap your posts in [font] and [color] tags, it makes quoting your posts a pain in the ass.


First of all, that is an extremely slanted characterization. As memory serves, the OP had two major grievances;

First, that the web-filters on the school computers prevented him from accessing Anarchist websites. While I did this regularly at my High School, I can't say I'm particularly surprised, nor do I see it as particularly egregious. Of course school computers are going to have web filters. This shouldn't come as a shock to anyone. Frankly, I can also see some validity in having web filters on school computers.

Why? I see no reason to restrict school students' internet access that isn't based on either shitty politics or shitty moralism.


His second grievance, as I understand it, is that the school declined to order or provide various radical literature, including Mao’s Red Book, and Che Guevara’s Guerilla Warfare. (I presume they also don’t carry the Satanic Bible, Steal This Book!, or Jenna Jameson’s How to Fuck Like A Porn Star.) I see no reason why a public high school is required to provide these texts. (Especially Guerilla Warfare.) Honestly, it’s also somewhat ridiculous to cry foul that they did not do so.

They were asking for book suggestions, and somebody ripped off theirs while no doubt leaving all sorts of other right-wing crap unmolested. It's one thing to say that this is par for the course in US schools, but it's quite another to implicitly assume that's somehow acceptable, as you seem to be doing.


Finally, and this goes on both counts, the OP was never, ever prevented from accessing this information. The aforementioned texts and his Anarchist websites are accessible for free at his local public library.

Are you sure? Because until I made a load of noise, Revleft was blocked at my local library... and I live in the UK, which has nowhere near the same amount of anti-radical paranoia. Don't feed me that First Amendment stuff, you should be perfectly aware that such things are entirely provisional.


I believe all exercises of authority should have to meet a burden of proof as to it's legitimacy. In many cases, one will find it is illegitimate, but not all cases. I think it is perfectly reasonable that children are not able to vote, or buy alcohol, or firearms, or get elected to congress, that they should have curfews, etc. That meets the burden of proof.

Curfews?! I was never subject to a curfew, either by my parents or by the British state. How can you, a self-proclaimed anarchist, be less socially liberal than Her Majesty's Government?!

As for the other examples, those are matters of competence and responsibility, which only loosely correlates with chronological age at the best of times.


Oh please. This is really disappointing. I’ve never known you to be hysterical. If need be, you can conduct some ideological purity test, however, my views tend to reside pretty squarely in the center of the spectrum of Anarchist philosophy.

I've yet to come across an age limit that wasn't either completely arbitrary or otherwise based on faulty reasoning. It's discrimination, pure and simple - it doesn't matter how smart or competent a 17 year old you are, there are things you simply cannot legally do. That in my opinion is the height of absurdity!

[Meridian]

Actually, it is. However, if you want you can try to produce one example of another country with broader protections for free speech. I've saved you the trouble, but you are free to confirm what I said.
You can talk about "protections" all you want, claiming the arena of unrestricted speech in the US is particularly broad would make anyone who's visited several European countries laugh.

[NGNM85]

Please don't take this the wrong way, but Verdana is the default font of this forum, and black is the default text colour. There is no need to constantly wrap your posts in [font] and [color] tags, it makes quoting your posts a pain in the ass.

I don’t do it intentionally. I think this is because I type my responses in word and then copy and paste them over. I do this so that god forbid the page reloads or whatever, I don’t end up losing a lengthy post.


Why? I see no reason to restrict school students' internet access that isn't based on either shitty politics or shitty moralism.

I don’t think you have to be a diehard Christian conservative to argue that maybe students shouldn’t be able to watch pornography on school computers, etc.


They were asking for book suggestions, and somebody ripped off theirs while no doubt leaving all sorts of other right-wing crap unmolested.

I seriously doubt the other students were asking for William F. Buckley or David Horowitz.


It's one thing to say that this is par for the course in US schools, but it's quite another to implicitly assume that's somehow acceptable, as you seem to be doing.

Again; are public schools under an obligation to provide students with Guevara’s Guerilla Warfare? I don’t find that at all convincing. I read radical literature in high school, (Some of which I did get from the school library, but mostly from other sources.) However, it never occurred to me to demand that they provide me with such materials, especially, one of the books in question, which is, quite literally, a training manual in combat tactics.


Are you sure? Because until I made a load of noise, Revleft was blocked at my local library...

I’ve never attempted to access RevLeft at a public library. However, I have accessed AnarchyArchives (An online collection of Anarchist literature.) and similar websites with no problem.


and I live in the UK, which has nowhere near the same amount of anti-radical paranoia.

English laws regarding speech are significantly more restrictive, and regressive. There are laws against ‘inciting racial hatred’, or ‘inciting religious hatred’, there’s your rather backwards laws on defamation, as in the famous McLibel case. So, we have substantially more freedom of speech here, in the US. Although, you have far better healthcare, etc.


Don't feed me that First Amendment stuff, you should be perfectly aware that such things are entirely provisional.

No, they aren’t.

The first Amendment created a basis for free speech but it was completely gutted by the Alien & Sedition acts, etc. The broad (Broadest in the world.) protections for free speech that presently exist in the United States wasn’t established until 1969. It was a long, complex struggle over almost 200 years, but I won’t subject you to an abbreviated history of civil rights in the United States.


Curfews?! I was never subject to a curfew, either by my parents or by the British state. How can you, a self-proclaimed anarchist, be less socially liberal than Her Majesty's Government?!

I was speaking in terms of parents, rather than an official policy. I had a curfew. I wasn’t psychically damaged by it, and I still managed to be a borderline alcoholic. Incidentally, if I had been able to purchase alcohol, I would likely be dead.

EDIT-As far as social issues are concerned (The big, hot-button issues.) I am for gay rights, I'm pro-choice, Pro-Cannabis legalization, I also support decriminalization, if not legalization, of all other drugs, and the legalization of prostitution. So, I think I'm still pretty far from the British crown in terms of social conservatism.


As for the other examples, those are matters of competence and responsibility, which only loosely correlates with chronological age at the best of times.

Is there a magic number, I mean, can I scientifically pin it down, like the atomic weight of cobalt? Of course not. I don't think 18 years is especially egregious.


I've yet to come across an age limit that wasn't either completely arbitrary or otherwise based on faulty reasoning. It's discrimination, pure and simple - it doesn't matter how smart or competent a 17 year old you are, there are things you simply cannot legally do. That in my opinion is the height of absurdity!

I think you’re really stretching the word ‘discrimination.’ I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

[NGNM85]

You can talk about "protections" all you want, claiming the arena of unrestricted speech in the US is particularly broad would make anyone who's visited several European countries laugh.

Cut the crap. What European countries? (Plural!) Ireland, the United Kingdom, Germany, (Especially Germany.) Austria, France, Sweden, Italy, etc., all have significantly narrower provisions regarding public speech. Again, please, do the homework, confirm what I said.

[psgchisolm]

There's a book in my schools library explaining the practical tactics of the Luftwaffe. Of course no-one owns a fighter-bomber around here either.

[ExUnoDisceOmnes]

Cut the crap. What European countries? (Plural!) Ireland, the United Kingdom, Germany, (Especially Germany.) Austria, France, Sweden, Italy, etc., all have significantly narrower provisions regarding public speech. Again, please, do the homework, confirm what I said.

Finland, Iceland, Sweden, Norway, and Denmark all have greater privileges of speech and press than the United States.

http://www.freedomhouse.org/uploads/fop/2007/pfscharts.pdf

[RadioRaheem84]

I cannot believe we're touting Freedom House on revleft to discuss which developed liberal democracy has the broadest free speech rights when like Noxion stated it's all provisional. It is all subject to the nations domestic and economic policy.

Judging by the odious Freedom House organization, even by NGN's standards, the US doesn't even come close to being the number one defender of free speech.

The US may let Neo-Nazis run around Skokie, IL way more than in Germany but that's because the US may pretend to value certain ideals over the safety of their citizens concerning the particular situation of riots possibly breaking out (and they mostly do). So if Germany doesn't share those ideals or thinks it's ridiculous to let a Neo-Nazi rally go in a heavily Jewish populated town, it doesn't mean they have less free speech in Germany or don't value it as much. It just means they're more sensible and realistic, and less faux idealistic.

And why site all of those "landmark" cases NGN? As if that makes so much of a difference in terms of advocating leftist views and trying to break them into the mainstream? Leftist views are heavily, heavily and I do mean heavily marginalized in this country regardless of how well free speech looks like on legal paper, especially with a private corporate conglomerate controlled press.

That is why we have "broader" free speech in this country, it's because all of the media is already booked and controlled by big companies and therefore the average leftist on the street with his organization can say all that they want and have all the legal protection, but they won't be able to really break into the mainstream due to the massive marginalization filter.

Watch how fast the US can regress in being such a bastion of free speech once the people gain consciousness and the US loses imperial ground.

The fact that you see it as a country greatly upholding an ideal (and being proud of it) rather than it being provisional, or based upon the material social conditions of the country astounds me.

[RadioRaheem84]

The first Amendment created a basis for free speech but it was completely gutted by the Alien & Sedition acts, etc. The broad (Broadest in the world.) protections for free speech that presently exist in the United States wasn’t established until 1969. It was a long, complex struggle over almost 200 years, but I won’t subject you to an abbreviated history of civil rights in the United States.


So up until the Alien & Sedition act, the US was a land of milk and honey for free speech? Then we didn't return to being the bastion of free speech until 1969? Is this right?

COINTELPRO didn't end until 1971 when it was still and I quote Hoover, ""expose, disrupt, misdirect, discredit, or otherwise neutralize" the activities of these movements [deemed subversive] and their leaders."

I know you're going to say that the COINTEPRO cases didn't hold up in court, but why was a nation with a great idealistic dedication to free speech subverting the free speech and political rights of dozens of leftist organizations in the first place? Even after the so called landmark case of '69?

[Spartacus.]

This is bullshit.


Look at your crap and then tell me. :lol:



First of all, there is no civil rights issue here. These are high school students, minors. Therefore, because of their age they do not have all the rights and privileges of adults. They also can’t buy guns, or liquor. Comes with the territory.


Yes, and the children minds are the one that are most vulnerable to influence from a skillfully-made propaganda that is emphasizing certain things and totally exluding others. If you repeat certain things enough times to an innocent children's mind, it's going to stay there forever.



Once they turn 18, they will be able to enjoy the fact that the United States has the broadest definition of free speech on earth.


Yeah, right. :rolleyes: Corporate definition of free speech! In other words, they will have "freedom" to repeat lies, slanders and propaganda that they have been indoctrinated through mass-media, believing in their ignorance that they have some "independent" opinion :rolleyes: about anything. That's really, really progressive... The rulling elite of the Weimar Germany also favored liberal "democracy" while it was serving their class interests, but it quickly "forgot" about their ideals and started to support Hitler once the oppressed started to organize and threaten the established order and the privileges of the capitalists. The same would probably happen in the US, but you are free to believe in your pleasant dreams about wonders of capitalist "free speech" without ever bothering to understand the shaky foundations on which that "freedom" is built.



I’m sure the curriculum also doesn’t include Japanese rock gardening or Tantric sex.


I was talking about students being unaquinted with even a basic understanding of fundamental Marxist ideas, but it's nice to see a poster on a RevLeft forum believing that Marx is as much important as Tantric sex. :rolleyes:



I have a number of criticisms of public school curricula, but from the sounds of it, you just seem to be pissed that they’re not being indoctrinated in your ideology.


I don't wan't them to be indoctrinated, just to know the other side of the story, and from what I have read and heard about american education system it is defficient in terms of providing students with any basic understanding about real nature of capitalism and real goals of Communism, exept for the fact that it wants to build a totalitarian system with a ruthless murderous dictator on top who will kill 20 millions of people. :lol:


Please tell me that you aren’t making the argument that Stalin ‘only’ killed X million people…


:lol: He actually "killed" less than many US presidents coming from the "land of the free" country. If you had actually bothered to read something from the American historian J. Arch Getty you might had known this... :laugh:

[NGNM85]

Judging by the odious Freedom House organization, even by NGN's standards, the US doesn't even come close to being the number one defender of free speech.

There is a rebuttal, forthcoming.


The US may let Neo-Nazis run around Skokie, IL

Actually, that march was a protest action because they had been denied the right to demonstrate at another venue. The courts overturned it and let them have their little farce, and the Skokie march was cancelled. This is yet another example of how censorship is counterproductive.


way more than in Germany but that's because the US may pretend to value certain ideals over the safety of their citizens concerning the particular situation of riots possibly breaking out (and they mostly do). So if Germany doesn't share those ideals or thinks it's ridiculous to let a Neo-Nazi rally go in a heavily Jewish populated town, it doesn't mean they have less free speech in Germany or don't value it as much. It just means they're more sensible and realistic, and less faux idealistic.

Neo-Nazis are actually much more of a force in Germany than in the United States. I think they actually, ultimately benefit from the censorship, because it makes them sexier, it gives them victim status, and it reinforces solidarity among the radical right. Of course, that's just one reason, or, three, rather.

No, it is the opposite of free speech. Again, 'free speech', means protecting speech for ideas you despise. Nobody ever went to the gulag for toeing the party line. If you say you support free speech, as long as people only express authorized opinions, that's the opposite of free speech. It's also fundamentally authoritarian. Anarchists, and Libertarian Socialists have generally opposed censorship. I merely maintain this long tradition. This is just one of those philosophical divides. I happen to believe free speech is a basic human right.


And why site all of those "landmark" cases NGN? As if that makes so much of a difference in terms of advocating leftist views and trying to break them into the mainstream?

It's an important moment in history that changed American law, like Roe v. Wade. That's not all of it, a lot of people had to spill blood in the streets, etc., it was a long journey. However, I think our society is better for it. I certainly wouldn't want to move backwards.


Leftist views are heavily, heavily and I do mean heavily marginalized in this country regardless of how well free speech looks like on legal paper, especially with a private corporate conglomerate controlled press.

The corporations effectively dismantled the thriving, working class, Left-wing press through advertizing. However, in recent years, the internet has leveled the playing field somewhat. In any case, while regrettable, this is not actually censorship.


That is why we have "broader" free speech in this country, it's because all of the media is already booked and controlled by big companies and therefore the average leftist on the street with his organization can say all that they want and have all the legal protection, but they won't be able to really break into the mainstream due to the massive marginalization filter.

That’s an oversimplification.


Watch how fast the US can regress in being such a bastion of free speech once the people gain consciousness and the US loses imperial ground.

The Trilateral commission was really concerned about this in the 60’s, they put a report together called the Crisis of Democracy. What was the 'crisis'? Democracy was working. People, especially traditionally marginalized elements of society; women, ethnic minorities, etc., were standing up and demanding things, and they were getting them. One of the conclusions of the report was that democracy works best when it works least, when people are distracted or reduced to apathy, because if they get organized and actually start using these mechanisms they start to get what they want. This, of course, merely echoes the refrain of a substantial canon of work by philosophers and policymakers like Walter Lippmann, and Reinhold Neibuhr, etc., which Chomsky analyzes in Manufacturing Consent. This is why the United States has the most sophisticated systems of spin, and opinion management. In China they just shoot people, no justification required.


The fact that you see it as a country greatly upholding an ideal (and being proud of it) rather than it being provisional, or based upon the material social conditions of the country astounds me.

No, I wouldn’t say ‘proud’, but I’m definitely glad, at least in the sense that I find it substantially preferable to the alternative. Kind of like how I’m glad I don’t have Ebola, etc. It’s also important to point out that the state cannot create rights, it can only respect them.

This is another philosophical divide. There’s more to the world than just economics. Admittedly, policy generally, overwhelmingly, even, follows the interests of the elites, but that’s not all of it. The trick is to differentiate between those segments of the law that are just there to reinforce existing systems of oppression, and those that actually make sense, and, the best of which, represent a groping towards a more just and decent society, and to use one against the other. I don’t see how any legitimate Libertarian Socialist would have too many problems with the First Amendment as it is written. Of course it was immediately undermined with all this garbage that made it completely useless, and there was a long fight on a multitude of fronts to undo that. One down, x amount to go.

[Tim Finnegan]

I don't think it matters that the OP can access information on Anarchism at his local public library, but that his school and the State limited his access to leftist texts.
That doesn't really follow; in the absence of the facilities in question, he would not be able to access this information, while with the presence of these facilities, he is still unable to access this information, which is to say: nothing has changed. It's "if A, then X, and if B, then X", not "if A, then X, if B, then X-1". If you're going to argue, you must argue for entitlement, not against a quite frankly imagined oppression.

(At least, that's true of the books. I'm not entirely sure where I stand on the internet filters.)

[NGNM85]

Yes, and the children minds are the one that are most vulnerable to influence from a skillfully-made propaganda that is emphasizing certain things and totally exluding others. If you repeat certain things enough times to an innocent children's mind, it's going to stay there forever.

I actually agree with some of that. I think the present curricula are deeply flawed. However, it sound as if you’re complaint is simply that young people are being indoctrinated with the wrong propaganda.


Yeah, right. Corporate definition of free speech!

Corporations can take advantage of free speech, so can we, incidentally, but corporations had nothing to do with establishing free speech.


In other words, they will have "freedom" to repeat lies, slanders and propaganda that they have been indoctrinated through mass-media, believing in their ignorance that they have some "independent" opinion about anything. That's really, really progressive...

It’s progressive that anybody can express their ideas without being censored or brutalized.


The rulling elite of the Weimar Germany also favored liberal "democracy" while it was serving their class interests, but it quickly "forgot" about their ideals and started to support Hitler once the oppressed started to organize and threaten the established order and the privileges of the capitalists. The same would probably happen in the US, but you are free to believe in your pleasant dreams about wonders of capitalist "free speech" without ever bothering to understand the shaky foundations on which that "freedom" is built.

You’re not making the point that you think you’re making.


I was talking about students being unaquinted with even a basic understanding of fundamental Marxist ideas, but it's nice to see a poster on a RevLeft forum believing that Marx is as much important as Tantric sex.

I would absolutely choose Tantric sex. However, I’m not a Marxist.


I don't wan't them to be indoctrinated, just to know the other side of the story, and from what I have read and heard about american education system it is defficient in terms of providing students with any basic understanding about real nature of capitalism and real goals of Communism, exept for the fact that it wants to build a totalitarian system with a ruthless murderous dictator on top who will kill 20 millions of people.

That’s something I can almost agree with.



He actually "killed" less than many US presidents coming from the "land of the free" country. If you had actually bothered to read something from the American historian J. Arch Getty you might had known this...

I can’t recall offhand one single US president who was responsible for more bloodshed than Stalin, at least not while in office.

Second, that whole line of debate entirely misses the point. There is absolutely no value into getting into a contest between who killed the most millions of people. There are no winners in that contest.

[Robespierre Richard]

Back in my day (okay, it was like 06-07) there was a Trotskyist standing around outside my school awkwardly trying to get people interested in socialism. I came up to him and was like "okay let's do it let's have a revolution" and he didn't really have a response and I guess was just there because he was bored.

Last year in college I heard that his anus was digitally penetrated by some guy while he was standing in that same spot, as it was next to where the cool kids smoked cigarettes and talked about cool kid stuff. Karma struck the guy back though and he became a heroin addict. I guess the lesson is not to stick fingers in other people's asses without their permission.

But yeah there's no point doing communist stuff in school unless you are REALLY class conscious (hint: you probably aren't) and actually have some sort of plan. But if you have fun doing stuff, go ahead, just don't become a disillusioned libertarian/fascist/something as some 'high school communists' I knew have when they went too far with it without really understanding what they're getting into.

[NGNM85]

So up until the Alien & Sedition act, the US was a land of milk and honey for free speech? Then we didn't return to being the bastion of free speech until 1969? Is this right?

You’re only advertizing you’re ignorance. Before the revolution, there was no free speech. During and immediately after the revolution, there were very severe limits, mostly concerned with anyone expressing loyalties to the crown. The Alien & Sedition Act was passed very shortly after the First Amendment, there was very little overlap. There was a very regressive and narrow allowance for free expression, until 1965, when the act was repealed, and things started rolling.


COINTELPRO didn't end until 1971 when it was still and I quote Hoover, ""expose, disrupt, misdirect, discredit, or otherwise neutralize" the activities of these movements [deemed subversive] and their leaders."

I know you're going to say that the COINTEPRO cases didn't hold up in court, but why was a nation with a great idealistic dedication to free speech

Again, that was completely undermined from the very beginning. It didn’t really come into existence until 1965-69.


subverting the free speech and political rights of dozens of leftist organizations in the first place? Even after the so called landmark case of '69?

COINTELPRO was a contemptible violation of certain individuals’ civil rights, but it was not a monolithic, totalistic system of oppression. Yes, that is nine-tenths correct. The FBI broke the law.

[RadioRaheem84]

You’re only advertizing you’re ignorance. Before the revolution, there was no free speech. During and immediately after the revolution, there were very severe limits, mostly concerned with anyone expressing loyalties to the crown. The Alien & Sedition Act was passed very shortly after the First Amendment, there was very little overlap. There was a very regressive and narrow allowance for free expression, until 1965, when the act was repealed, and things started rolling.


At first I has assumed you were talking about the Sedition Acts of 1918, but the stuff about the 1798 Sedition Acts is even worse than what I had originally thought you were saying! So a law enacted in 1798 is what was keeping the free speech bastion juice from flowing? So after it was repealed the US became the free speech center of the world?

Seriously, what kind of Anarchist are you? You don't have a materialist leftist bone in your body.




Again, that was completely undermined from the very beginning. It didn’t really come into existence until 1965-69.


Senate Select Church Committee Report said that COINTELPRO was official in 1956. Even after the Supreme Court said COINTELPRO was un-Constitutional. But what does that matter when the Constitution means bupkiss to people maintaining the current social order?

This is the part you missing; ideals mean nothing.



COINTELPRO was a contemptible violation of certain individuals’ civil rights, but it was not a monolithic, totalistic system of oppression. Yes, that is nine-tenths correct. The FBI broke the law.


Jeez, I swear, how could you say that when Fred Hampton lost his life. Not to mention Geronimo Pratt who was framed by the FBI for murder and served a 27 year prison sentence.

I mean this is just the tip of the major iceberg involving the program. It wasn't just a "contemptible violation of certain individuals rights". It was systemic state repression.

Good god, I've never met an Anarchist who continually defends the US government.

Advertising ignorance, indeed.

[RadioRaheem84]

This is why the United States has the most sophisticated systems of spin, and opinion management. In China they just shoot people, no justification required

The States still implements state repression when it wants to silence dissent. Why are you so bent on telling us all that our complaints about the US are off base, when there is an obvious history of repression against dissident voices in this country? When the propaganda system doesn't work the State takes care of the loose ends. This is systemic, not hiccups in an otherwise benign system.

So stop the stupid comparisons between China and the US. US foreign policy and military interventions are horribly repressive nearly nixing all of the ideals about freedom at home.

[Dimitri Molotov]

I absolutely hate the attitude of "well that is how life if and we just have to deal with it/get over it." It comes off as incredibly lazy to me and I cannot see any way that we are ever going to make any kind of real progress towards our goals if we just say "well it's all bourgeoisie stuff so we just gotta get over it." Public schools might be better than private schools, but private schools are voluntary for the parents and public schools still don't cut it, especially with the vast majority of students go to a public school. My school especially is insanely biased to the point where anyone with half a brain to think for them self could see how much bullshit it is. There is also believe it or not a good handful of children who do not have access to an internet or library that go to my school outside the school's library or internet. Come on Comrades, stand up for something. This is something that concerns me and I will fight for it regardless of how others think it is. Viva La Revolution. :star:

[Dimitri Molotov]

Who here was introduced to radical politics through their schools suggested reading list?
.

Nobody because the school's suggested reading list has no books on radical politics...?

[9]

I absolutely hate the attitude of "well that is how life if and we just have to deal with it/get over it." It comes off as incredibly lazy to me and I cannot see any way that we are ever going to make any kind of real progress towards our goals if we just say "well it's all bourgeoisie stuff so we just gotta get over it." Public schools might be better than private schools, but private schools are voluntary for the parents and public schools still don't cut it, especially with the vast majority of students go to a public school. My school especially is insanely biased to the point where anyone with half a brain to think for them self could see how much bullshit it is. There is also believe it or not a good handful of children who do not have access to an internet or library that go to my school outside the school's library or internet. Come on Comrades, stand up for something. This is something that concerns me and I will fight for it regardless of how others think it is. Viva La Revolution. :star:
I think it is less a matter of being "incredibly lazy" and more a matter of knowing how to pick your battles and pouring your energy into things that actually matter.

I see that you live in the US - I do as well. The unfortunate reality, for the time being, is that people with communist ideas in the US are very few and very far between and are up against a lot. It is really important to know how to pick your battles or else you can plan on burning out within a matter of a few years, if not a few months.

I've been out of school for half a decade, but I think certain websites being blocked on school computers is one of those things that you "just have to deal with/get over it". Ultimately, when masses of youth become radicalized in the US, it isn't going to be because they all just accidentally stumbled upon a website expounding marxist analysis or were given a school reading list with communist texts, its going to be because of intensifying class struggle and exposure to some sort of mass movement - with or without access to particular websites on school computers, with or without particular texts on school reading lists.

Of course, you can disagree and you're perfectly entitled to organize some sort of campaign at your school to get radical websites unblocked or radical texts put on reading lists. But you can't do it by yourself, and like I said, I think it is a question of picking your battles, and I don't think these are battles that are (a) particularly important, nor (b) that you're very likely to win.

[Dimitri Molotov]

I think it is less a matter of being "incredibly lazy" and more a matter of knowing how to pick your battles and pouring your energy into things that actually matter.

I see that you live in the US - I do as well. The unfortunate reality, for the time being, is that people with communist ideas in the US are very few and very far between and are up against a lot. It is really important to know how to pick your battles or else you can plan on burning out within a matter of a few years, if not a few months.

I've been out of school for half a decade, but I think certain websites being blocked on school computers is one of those things that you "just have to deal with/get over it". Ultimately, when masses of youth become radicalized in the US, it isn't going to be because they all just accidentally stumbled upon a website expounding marxist analysis or were given a school reading list with communist texts, its going to be because of intensifying class struggle and exposure to some sort of mass movement - with or without access to particular websites on school computers, with or without particular texts on school reading lists.

Of course, you can disagree and you're perfectly entitled to organize some sort of campaign at your school to get radical websites unblocked or radical texts put on reading lists. But you can't do it by yourself, and like I said, I think it is a question of picking your battles, and I don't think these are battles that are (a) particularly important, nor (b) that you're very likely to win.

Thank you for the advice, Comrade. I am glad there is some logical thought process behind the "just get over it" response, It came of to me as apathy. I think I will use your advice, because there is probably much more productive and effective things I could be using my time on. Have a good day/night comrades!

[Zealot]

I feel you man that really sucks! But not much of a surprise either

[∞]

So do private schools for that matter. I've learned more things on Revleft then in my history classes. I have learned more about science watching Sagan, Nye, and Feynman than in my science classes. I have learned more math by practicing problems by myself in workbooks and textbooks than I have in my Math classes. School sucks, they don't care about the next generation of visionaries, they care more about the next generation of entrepreneurs. Yet another wonderful feature of a capitalist society, school geared towards the surviving in the workplace.

[Mettalian]

The idea of public school is awesome, but they've been co-opted as a bourgeois institution that teaches people that they can't change anything and they're best off living as a wage slave. My school has books on the Communist Party of Canada, but primarily from a historical perspective (being one of the oldest parties in Canada) rather than ideological. On the other hand, it censors anarchist websites due to the stereotypes of that bullshit idea: anarchy=chaos. It's a mixed bag, but at least it's not privatized, at least until Harper gets his hands on things with his majority.

[jake williams]

Public high schools, in the US especially, are pretty bad.

I had a real rough time growing up at a poor public school in a poor neighbourhood with no resources and a lot of fucked up kids. I spent far too much of my childhood crying into my pillow. I spent the better part of four years (while I was at said school) begging that I could be homeschooled or go to some private school or something.

The thing is, I couldn't possibly have been homeschooled or private schooled.

My mom barely made enough working full time to pay subsidized rent, and thanks enough to child labour laws, I couldn't pay my own tuition. The only option that virtually all of us have is to fight for quality, democratic public schools. This is something that can only be the product of incredible struggle fought for a long time, but it's worth noting that we've already achieved quite a lot. Basically all advanced capitalist countries have more or less free, universal education up to at least grade 12 (or equivalent), often through several years of university, and mostly taught by union teachers. That's a considerable accomplishment. There's a hell of a lot further to go, but that's an incredible accomplishment.

And there are no other options. We can't and shouldn't homeschool. Private schools are even more controlled by the bourgeoisie than public schools are (or worse: it's curious that allegedly anti-theistic "libertarians" openly advocate the conversion of secular public schools into religious schools). And charter schools are literally a conspiracy by the bourgeoisie against the working class. Public schools are the only option we have. Period.

I'm sorry that it sucks now, but that's life. I've been there and I'm sympathetic and I'm absolutely on your side in fighting to change it, but public schools are the only option we have.

[Johnny Kerosene]

School sucks, they don't care about the next generation of visionaries, they care more about the next generation of entrepreneurs. Yet another wonderful feature of a capitalist society, school geared towards the surviving in the workplace.

They don't really try to hide it. Teachers will tell you that school is like your job, implying that it's something that you have to get up and do every week day and and you spend around 7 hours a day at school. Only at least at a job you have like some rights/priveliges. Students don't have much in the way of defense. Hell at my school they established a rule two years ago that anyone who get's into a fight get's suspended for ten days (because we started to have a lot of fights all of the sudden), but even if someone else starts beating the shit out of you and you fight back you'll get suspended, they'll tell you should have waited for a teacher or some shit. What's funny is that the day they made the rule and announced over the intercom in 4th period, like 30 minutes later in B lunch there was another fight. I lol'd when that happened.

[El Oso Rojo]

At my old HS, i had a librarian who work for the organizer in Europe, and our library had a copy of black panther books and foundations of Leninism.

[Jimmie Higgins]

"the state says it is the school's obligation to protect us from anything violent or that implies violence"

Do you have a JROTC in your school district? Do military or police come on campus and give presentations? You should get the above quote in writing and try and kick police or the military off.

But yes, Public Schools suck. I think the left really has to make that case because due to all the attacks on public education and teachers (and their unions) specifically, we somtimes fall into the trap of ignoring the real problems with schools in order to defend them from the right. We need to do both - fight the right-wing (and liberal, hell Obama is Charter-booster #1) attacks while also acknowledging the shitty way they are run currently. The difference is that we should fight to keep what is progressive about public education while fighting for more teacher and student control and more funding for things that people really need.

[kahimikarie]

I also admire your persistence.

To me it's kind of strange they don't have any marx etc. I went to a public school and they had "the communist manifesto" and other things like this. Seems weird to not have the basic things like this for educational purposes, but I went to a fairly liberal high school I guess.

[Dragonaut]

My school library has a whole section of leftist books. We have the Communist Manifesto, Capital, and other books on Marxist and anarchist theory. There's also books about the history of communism and socialism that DON'T have a right wing bias. It seems like a lot teachers at my school are open to socialist ideas, so I consider myself lucky, especially when hearing about certain places in the states.

[bietan jarrai]

Fortunately I don't really have this problem, at least not in my school - I used to surf in my favourite leftist websites and forums during Informatics classes. My library also has Marx, and books on Marx and Lenin. On the other hand it has Mein Kampf. :rolleyes:

[Tim Finnegan]

Fortunately I don't really have this problem, at least not in my school - I used to surf in my favourite leftist websites and forums during Informatics classes. My library also has Marx, and books on Marx and Lenin. On the other hand it has Mein Kampf. :rolleyes:
To be fair, Mein Kampf is usually intended as an historical document, and, even if its significance is rather over-rated in that regard (it was essentially literary masturbation on Hitler's part, rather than a cohesive thesis or manifesto), that's an entirely legitimate use for it. Chances are they have Marx for the same reason, rather than because they consider it useful in and of itself.

[RedMarxist]

I got lucky. our history teacher skipped OVER the entire Russian Revolution because they were behind on schedule, so we just skipped all the way to World Wars One and Two

But i took the liberty to read the Russian Revolution chapter myself. It was...unbiased and accurate, esp. when talking about Lenin and Karl Marx. It had a nice comparison chart between Marx's original ideas and Lenin's adaptations. It said stalin only killed around 2 to 3 million people.

Don't know if its definition of a vanguard party(a party wherein a communist elite theoretically guide the working class during and after revolution) was all that correct, but hey the rest of the chapter was WIN!

my school does not block out anarchy. Nor does it block out Marxist phrases. In my bullshit programming education class, where the teacher just watched youtube videos and did not teach I became quite acquainted with Marx and Engels. Hell, I even read STALIN in the class on my spare time, no one gave a shit though.

[Leftsolidarity]

A few days ago, me and 2 other of my anarcho-communist friends at my high school noticed the school web filter censors the word "anarchy" or any phrase with the word in it in any search engine!!! We already hate that damn web filter as it is because we are anti-censorship of course and doing research is a pain in the ass with access to only the information they want us to know, but this took it to a whole other level. It didn't just block the individual links on the search engine results page, it literally just blocked the entire results page. The reason for it being blocked according to the computer was "extremist/militant/terrorism"! WTF!!! So my one friend decided to see if joinalqaeda.com was blocked on the computer, it wasn't. That resulted in the teacher coming up to the three of us and asking what we were doing on that website, and my smart ass friend replies "I'm just trying to join al qaeda, get off my ass bro!" That landed him in suspension for obvious reasons, so me and my other friend were on our own. We were pretty sure joinalqaeda.com is a joke site, but it doesn't matter. We decided to go to the school library to read about Ho Chi Minh or something, and we noticed that the "Book Suggestions List", that me and my friends made an effort to fill with leftist books, like the manifesto, the little red book, guerrilla warfare, etc... WAS RIPPED OFF THE WALL, while all of the other book suggestions were still there. This pissed us off, and we went right to the guidance counselor because we didn't really know who was in charge of this sort of thing. He told us "the state says it is the school's obligation to protect us from anything violent or that implies violence", even though we play dodge ball and wrestling in gym, learn about the weapons of WWI in history, and things like that. I also tried to explain to him how anarchy does not teach violence, terrorism or anything like that, it is just a stereotype and it actually teaches values like equality, self sufficiency, free thinking and organization without a leader or commander, and teamwork. I asked him what happened if someone wants to learn about anarchy, tries to search it, and the only impression they get of it is militant terrorism? This whole conversation ended up turning into an hour and a half debate about Somalia, and my parent's jobs. Finally, he told us to speak to the tech guy at our school, who was almost impossible to track down. We spoke to him, and he said he would talk to the vice principal about it, and see why it is blocked and possibly unblock it. There are about 5 Marxists, 2-4 socialists, and about 10 or 11 anarchists, some of them being anarcho communists in the whole high school. It is allot more than most schools in our area, but nothing compared to the heavy population of conservative ignoramuses in the school. Most of my friends turn to me for anything that has to do with politics because I pretty much dedicate my life to it so far. I debate with teachers all of the time and I usually stump them, even though I usually end up in the office because they are sick of my outspokenness. Sorry for the long and drawn out unnecessary story, but what do you guys think of that whole situation?

You sound like you're my twin or something haha

[The Stalinator]

My homeroom teacher in the fourth grade was a Communist.

[Klaatu]

It would be great if Dimitri and friends figured out a way to block "Fox News," "Capitalism," "Supply Side Economics," etc from the school computers (you know, just to level the playing field...) ;)