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View Full Version : Muslim mob burns down Church, kills man who refused to kill his daughter



Sinister Cultural Marxist
10th March 2011, 18:11
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2058032,00.html


The angry, aggressive crowd formed within minutes of my arrival. Dozens of Muslim men, all in ankle-length galabiyas, suddenly came together in the middle of the dusty, dirt path leading to the Church of the Two Martyrs in this poor, mixed Christian-and-Muslim village some 210 kilometers south of Cairo. They were determined to block access to what has become a sectarian sore, a church overrun by Muslim locals and desecrated, an act that has prompted desperate national calls to maintain the inter-religious unity forged in Tahrir Square during the uprising that overthrew President Hosni Mubarak.
"You can't see it!" a group of men screamed. Several women in full face veils, or niqabs, scurried away, carrying plastic bags of produce. An armored personnel carrier with several soldiers in red berets watched the fracas from further up the road. Closer by, at least a dozen soldiers in flak jackets and helmets marched down an adjacent side street, barring anyone from following them.
"You are not allowed to pass," some of the men in galabiyas yelled at me. "Leave! Leave now!"
"Are you Christian?" another asked.
"What are you going to see?" Mahmoud Mohammad, 30, who appeared to be their spokesman, said. "Destroyed walls and a burnt building?" I told him I wanted to reach the church. (See into the Egyptian Brotherhood.) (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2048310,00.html)
"It's not a church," he said, raising his voice. "It is a meeting place, and we don't want a church here," he added, before grabbing my notebook, ripping out several pages and forcibly marching me out of the village.
The village dispute stems from a romantic relationship between a Christian man and a Muslim woman in the town. The woman's relatives wanted to "cleanse their honor" of the smear of being with a Christian man, according to local media reports and as well as several of the Muslim men who gathered around me. But when the subject of an honor killing came up, the woman's father refused. He was shot dead by an unidentified assailant and buried on Friday. To date, nobody has been arrested for the murder.
"After Friday prayers some of the youth were angry and still mourning, so they came to the church looking for that filthy Christian," Mohammad said, referring to the youth entangled in the love affair. They didn't find him, but they ransacked the church. "We found wine and books against Islam," Mohammad claimed as other men interrupted to speak of other alleged wrongdoings by their Christian neighbors. "They rape our women!" one yelled. "They overcharge us at their stores!" said another.
It is unclear how many people were killed in Sole as a result of the dispute but after Christians demonstrated in Cairo on Tuesday night against the desecration of the village church, a fight ensued with groups of Muslims, leading to violence, the death of 13 people and 140 wounded. (See why you should learn to love the revolution.) (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2055202,00.html)
Tensions between Egypt's majority Muslim population and Christians, who make up about 10% of the country's 80 million people, have simmered for decades. They rose sharply, however, after a church in Alexandria was bombed on New Year's Day. Twenty-one worshippers were killed in the attack. After the State Security Headquarters in Cairo were ransacked over the weekend, documents allegedly emerged that purported that the attack was orchestrated by elements of the government. The authenticity of the documents has not been ascertained, but the contents play into long-held fears of some of Egypt's Christians.
Many of Sole's Christian residents have fled, fearing further violence. Maher Sadiq, 26, isn't one of them. He says many of the town's Christian menfolk are still in the town, defending their homes. Sadiq, who says his house is in the same street as the church, said the remaining Christians were "living in fear." "They've turned the church into a mosque," he said by telephone. "There's a banner in front of it that says 'Al-Ramla Mosque.' They're not letting anyone pass, or go near the church. We will not leave, we're prepared to die here."
Aziz Narooz, 27, and Hani Diab, 26, travelled from Sole earlier on Wednesday to join the hundreds of Coptic Christians maintaining a sit-in outside the State Television headquarters. Many are sleeping on blankets spread out on the pavement. Most are carrying large wooden crosses. "People are very scared, some haven't left their homes in days," Narooz said of the remaining Christians in Sole. "They burnt our church, they kicked around the statues of our saints. Our saints!" he repeats. "They tore up the bible and they're still there."
In a bid to defuse rising tensions, the ruling Supreme Military Council pledged on Tuesday to rebuild the church before Easter and punish the perpetrators of the sectarian attacks. A day earlier, the country's new prime minister, Essam Sharaf, joined the protesters, but they refused to speak with him until their demands were met. The Copts want the church rebuilt in its original location, not elsewhere as some officials suggested, and the resignation of the local governor. (See a video of the celebration in Cairo.) (http://www.time.com/time/video/player/0,32068,786909384001_2048765,00.html)
But it's obviously about a lot more than a village dispute. Michael Armanios, 20, who was hoarse from chanting outside the State TV building, fears for his future as an Egyptian Christian. "The second article of the Constitution says that Shari'a is the law of the land, that this is a Muslim country. What about us?" he asked in a voice barely above a whisper. "Our soldiers don't want to hear us," he said gesturing to the dozens of armed men manning the coiled razorwire near the building. "We want — I need — to have an opinion, I need to feel like I am a complete human being."
"Jesus taught us to be tolerant," said Samih Sameh, 23, who had painted a crescent and a cross on his cheeks, in the red, white and black of the Egyptian flag. "But this is too much. We are here holding crosses, not weapons. Who will defend us?"


Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2058032,00.html#ixzz1GDpFJhfm

The majority persecuting the minority is always a possibility in revolutions due to the breakdown in civil order, as we see with the attacks on black people in Libya, but it is despicable nonetheless. These Muslim fanatics and the Christian idiots at the anti-Muslim protest in Orange County are more alike than either would want to believe

What can be done to stop the ethnic majority from imposing their will violently on the minority like this? Can we actually trust the egyptian state? Also, whats the brotherhoods position on this? I have heard that they are more tolerant of religious minorities than other fundamentalist organizations, but would they stand against this kind of violence?

The Red Next Door
10th March 2011, 18:27
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2058032,00.html

The majority persecuting the minority is always a possibility in revolutions due to the breakdown in civil order, as we see with the attacks on black people in Libya, but it is despicable nonetheless. These Muslim fanatics and the Christian idiots at the anti-Muslim protest in Orange County are more alike than either would want to believe

What can be done to stop the ethnic majority from imposing their will violently on the minority like this? Can we actually trust the egyptian state? Also, whats the brotherhoods position on this? I have heard that they are more tolerant of religious minorities than other fundamentalist organizations, but would they stand against this kind of violence?

those people are actually the minority, stop painting the whole muslim and christain community with a brush.

Diello
10th March 2011, 18:36
Good lord; you should know better than to blame Islamists for anything on this forum.

Sinister Cultural Marxist
10th March 2011, 19:38
those people are actually the minority, stop painting the whole muslim and christain community with a brush.

Whoah! I didn't mean to accuse most Christians or Muslims of being like this. Just that there ARE Muslims and Christians who are like this, and they happen to pose a clear and present danger to the minorities until the "majorities" of those faiths stamp out the reactionaries.

Don't strawman me by trying to say I'm generalizing about Muslims and Christians!

Diello-an injustice anywhere is an injustice everywhere :P doesn't matter if the victims are muslim, christian, jewish, hindu, buddhist, gay, untouchable, etc. Leftists should not feel any fear of calling out any reactionary, regardless of their faith, ethnicity, gender or nationality. But you're right I suppose :P.

Luís Henrique
10th March 2011, 21:28
I have always been comfortable in condemning the Islamic far-right here. Or course there are always a few guys who scream "anti-imperialism", but I do not think it impossible to discuss these issues here.

Toppling a dictatorship is like this. There is a moment when it is everybody against the dictator, and things just look they will improve constantly and nicely. It is the time you see communists, liberals, social-democrats, conservatives, the secular and the religious, and even disgruntled supporters of the dictatorship all cooperate to topple the dictatorship.

But then the dictator falls and this Kumbaya moment is over. The various fractions of the uprising were only unified by their common opposition to the dictatorship; without the dictator, they have no longer any kind of unity. And they will struggle against each others.

This is the time when calls for unity are the most harmful. Former allies are no longer allies, it is time to fight against them, not to try to preserve the delightful delusion of all-encompassing unity. And so it is time to push forward newer and more radical demands. Freedom for women, freedom for religious minorities, separation between State and Church (or, in this case, Mosque), a secular constitution, union rights, workers rights, end of military messing in politics, end of secret police, etc.

It is like a bycicle: if it doesn't go forward, it falls.

Islamists are no longer allies in Egypt - they are probably the most important enemy of the working class there now. Down with them!

Luís Henrique

The Red Next Door
11th March 2011, 03:33
Whoah! I didn't mean to accuse most Christians or Muslims of being like this. Just that there ARE Muslims and Christians who are like this, and they happen to pose a clear and present danger to the minorities until the "majorities" of those faiths stamp out the reactionaries.

Don't strawman me by trying to say I'm generalizing about Muslims and Christians!

Diello-an injustice anywhere is an injustice everywhere :P doesn't matter if the victims are muslim, christian, jewish, hindu, buddhist, gay, untouchable, etc. Leftists should not feel any fear of calling out any reactionary, regardless of their faith, ethnicity, gender or nationality. But you're right I suppose :P.

Islamicist are small, so, they are not a big danger and not all islamicist are bad either.

Sinister Cultural Marxist
11th March 2011, 04:12
Islamicist are small, so, they are not a big danger and not all islamicist are bad either.
Tell that to the Christians whose church was burned down and who got shot when their daughter slept with a Muslim, and who were physically intimidated by a mob.

Anyway, im not talking about Muslims in general, or even Islamists, just fanatics who are violent. Do you deny that the people described in this story are violent? Most Whites aren't racists, but I would certainly say that society during a revolution should seek to address violence by White extremists!

NGNM85
11th March 2011, 04:44
Faith; it's a beautiful thing...

Red_Devotchka
30th April 2011, 08:41
check out on youtube "submission" by Ali Ayaan Hirsi. the guy she did it with got killed by religious extremists.

Sasha
30th April 2011, 11:19
check out on youtube "submission" by Ali Ayaan Hirsi. the guy she did it with got killed by religious extremists.

Let's not promote that intentionaly hateful and offensive piece of poor filmmaking.
Ayaan hirshi Ali is an disgusting hypocrite exploiting her (in big part lied about) background to get comfy jobs, first in our parliament for the conservative party and now at hardcore neo-con thinktanks in the US. And not an excuse for his murder but theo van gogh was an vile piece of sexist and anti-semite shit.

Kamos
30th April 2011, 12:27
not all islamicist are bad either.

Wrong! All islamists are bad. After all, it's difficult to find anything good they do. On the other hand, they do promote homophobia, sexism, all that, and have the tendency to kill non-islamists at random. Even here on RevLeft, this should be obvious. Don't make the mistakes of thinking religious extremists have any place in any society at all.

Hoipolloi Cassidy
30th April 2011, 12:38
Wrong! All islamists are bad.

One of the political movements active in the Egyptian and pan-Arabic movement for liberation - the Wafd - has a flag that is carried to demonstrations against repression in Syria and elsewhere.

The flag is green (color of Islam) with a cross AND a crescent joined, to suggest that "we are all one."

We now return you to your teevee...

agnixie
30th April 2011, 13:49
One of the political movements active in the Egyptian and pan-Arabic movement for liberation - the Wafd - has a flag that is carried to demonstrations against repression in Syria and elsewhere.

The flag is green (color of Islam) with a cross AND a crescent joined, to suggest that "we are all one."

We now return you to your teevee...

Reminds me of that medieval serbian flag which serbian nationalists thought looked "too muslim"

jake williams
30th April 2011, 14:16
Islamists are no longer allies in Egypt - they are probably the most important enemy of the working class there now. Down with them!
No, the most important enemies of the working class in Egypt are the new military dictators who are actually governing, and who are relatively secular. Islamism as an ideology is certainly a problem, and unfortunately, it's an ideology common amongst the working class. But its strength in Egypt is overstated.

That said, almost all workers in Egypt are religious Muslims, and while the protection of religious minorities is important (and difficult), working with Islam is a fact of political life. Secularism, opposition to sectarian attacks and opposition to religious fundamentalism are all important, but Islam per se is not the immediate problem for the Egyptian working class, and the Islamist fundamentalists, while a problem, aren't really strong enough to be the main enemy (not that they're allies).

Sword and Shield
30th April 2011, 15:22
Tell that to the Christians whose church was burned down and who got shot when their daughter slept with a Muslim, and who were physically intimidated by a mob.

Nitpicking here, but I think you've got it backwards. He and his daughter were Muslim.


Anyway, im not talking about Muslims in general, or even Islamists, just fanatics who are violent. Do you deny that the people described in this story are violent? Most Whites aren't racists, but I would certainly say that society during a revolution should seek to address violence by White extremists!

Yes I think we need to distinguish between the mainstream Islamists and the radical Wahabis, such as Al-Qaeda, who are happy to sell their soul to the devil (USA) in order to achieve their goals.

We can see an example of this in Libya. Gaddafi's secular government is having to battle a group of rebels whose most eager fighters are Al-Qaeda members. Gaddafi had arrested them when they returned from Iraq. His biggest mistake was that he released them when they claimed to renounce terrorism.

Red_Devotchka
30th April 2011, 18:50
Let's not promote that intentionaly hateful and offensive piece of poor filmmaking.
Ayaan hirshi Ali is an disgusting hypocrite exploiting her (in big part lied about) background to get comfy jobs, first in our parliament for the conservative party and now at hardcore neo-con thinktanks in the US. And not an excuse for his murder but theo van gogh was an vile piece of sexist and anti-semite shit.

I have never said "oh , hei people, ayaan hirsi ali is a great person and shoudl be admired." and, oh lied? yeah, i would lie as well about my background only to get a cool job. no matter im risking my life and stuff. and even if se lied she's making public situation of hundreds of women. and i liked the movie, cause has a strong message denouncing such a situation. if someone misunderstand it and sees it as a message of hate, then maybe its him having problems :/

Sasha
30th April 2011, 19:12
she lied about her background, she claimed she was an political refugee escaping prosecution from the eveil islamists etc in somalia while she was actually living in (relative) afluence in kenya and saudi arabia, she lied about being forced in an mariage se lied about tons of stuff. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali)
now while i, as an anarchist, have no problem what so ever with migration and i can understand how you would lie and present yourself as an political refugee to bypass the bullshit rightwing western migration laws but in hirsch ali's case its i think exampelery for her oppurtunist "i dont care who i have to kick further in the gutter to get ahead" attitude.
the fact she at the moment she moved from the social-democrats to the conservatives sudenly became from an liberal an right-wing muslim bashing neo-con speaks volumes.
she is and always be an opputunist hack.

Red_Devotchka
1st May 2011, 03:57
lol, tht is not a secret, she even wrote it in her book. :/ and why you think there are lots of immigrants from egypt tht claim to be refugees from libya coming to lampedusa ? i think tht if you are desperate enough u'd say anyting to save yourself :/ and i repeat, im not saying tht she is impeccable ...

Jimmie Higgins
1st May 2011, 04:54
The majority persecuting the minority is always a possibility in revolutions due to the breakdown in civil order,I don't know about that. Attacks against Copts in Egypt, attacks against Muslems by Hinu nationalists, attacks by Israeli settlers etc, ARE civil order, not the result of any breakdown.


as we see with the attacks on black people in Libya, but it is despicable nonetheless. These Muslim fanatics and the Christian idiots at the anti-Muslim protest in Orange County are more alike than either would want to believeAnd what all these examples have in common is not revolution or breakdowns of order (since O.C. has not seen an uprising to my knowledge:D) or religion, but people rejecting class solidarity and buying into divisions in society (divisions often set-up and promoted by the ruling classes of society). So in Libya the divisions among the working class (especially migrant) and the playing of nationalities off one another that existed under the regime, also played out in the rebellion and was one of the ways in which the uprising was weakened and since the people who have taken the lead on the rebellion are people without an interest in solidarity of oppressed people, then scapegoating people is not something they feel they need to stop - they are counting on US bombs, not a grassroots rebellion of all people against the dictatorship.

In Egypt while there has been a return to sectarian religious animosity and so on, the rebellion (the breakdown of order) actually saw Muslims protect Copts and Copts protect protesting Muslims during their prayers in Tahrir. Solidarity was what people saw as an effective counter to the old regime.


What can be done to stop the ethnic majority from imposing their will violently on the minority like this? Can we actually trust the Egyptian state? Also, whats the brotherhoods position on this? I have heard that they are more tolerant of religious minorities than other fundamentalist organizations, but would they stand against this kind of violence?We can not trust the Egyptian state - the figurehead was changed, but the regime and the military and police are all still intact. The people who ran the country still do more or less and their interests are not in democracy or ruling in the interests of the population (if that's even possible) and so they will ultimately have to turn back to the scapegoating and promoting bigotry, sexism and divisions to keep people fighting amongst themselves. In fact the will probably double-down on all that plus increased repression (if they feel they can get away with it) just so they can bury the positive counter-example of how society could be - the protests where religious groups worked together and common sexism was diminished.

Ruling classes have always relied on "divide and rule" strategies - sometimes it is unapologetic and open like in slave societies or caste societies where divisions were visible and regulated and just a "fact of life". Generally since capitalism has this illusion of "free-labor" and the bourgeois favors parliamentary "democracies", divisions are more hidden or blamed on genetics or cultural divisions. If capitalism is a "free" system, how do you keep some people disenfranchised? You say, X group are too dumb/violent/superstitious for democracy and so that's why they don't have rights.

In order for the majority of the population, the working class and other oppressed classes (as well as groups targeted for special oppression like ethnic or religious minorities), to push back against our rulers (who maintain their rule by keeping the majority fighting amongst itself) we need to unite together. So a precondition of a real strong revolutionary working class movement is a movement that has already begun to tackle divisions in society. If the working class is able to destroy the state and set up their own rule, they would not have a need to divide people and cause people to fight for crumbs like ruling minority classes have done. A majority ruling class would then have the ability to smash remaining structural inequalities (like restrictions on immigrant workers or income inequality between men and women doing the same kind of work, etc) and begin to heal all the rifts in society. If no one had to compete for jobs or worry about how they were going to pay rent or handle medical bills, then why would anyone really care what religion their neighbor is or what their country of birth was?

In the US, you can look at examples of how racial and ethnic scapegoating have changed as the needs of the social order have changed. Without a class-interest in dividing people, restricting rights, or scapegoats, then all ethnic divisions could be eliminated much like how divisions that are now useless to the ruling class have faded - even the KKK doesn't bother with scapegoating Catholics anymore like they did when the ruling class blamed catholic and Jewish immigrants for "spreading radicalism" in the the US.

Sasha
1st May 2011, 14:43
lol, tht is not a secret, she even wrote it in her book. :/ and why you think there are lots of immigrants from egypt tht claim to be refugees from libya coming to lampedusa ? i think tht if you are desperate enough u'd say anyting to save yourself :/ and i repeat, im not saying tht she is impeccable ...

but she wasnt desperate, she didnt need to save herself, she isnt couragues, she never ment to put her life on the line, she postured as an victim because that was convinient, that what she did hurted actual victims and she doesnt give a shit about it.
maybe since your not dutch you missed the finer points of the whole controversy but really, there was no good person in her fight with verdonk, in fact this might have been one of the only times my sympathies was more with the "the rules are the rules and are equal for everybody" iron lady...
she first played the poor abused refugee to get her way, than she stabbed all the actual abused refugees in the back by becoming the postergirl for an "close all borders" party and when that came back to bite her in the tail she ran and used her white extreme conservative "rice-daddy's" to save her ass.

Red_Devotchka
1st May 2011, 23:42
hmm... well, to be honest i think you're right. i should have informed better. ive read a book of her and saw tht video, but didnt know much enough evidently. sorry and thanks

black magick hustla
2nd May 2011, 09:35
miserable people in backward agro-capitalist hells engaging in sectarian violence who would have thought. nothing to do with islam, everything to do with being a fucking beast of burden