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freepalestine
10th March 2011, 06:06
How To Kill Goyim And Influence People:
Leading Israeli Rabbis Defend Manual for For Killing Non-Jews





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When I went into the Jewish religious book emporium, Pomeranz, in central Jerusalem to inquire about the availability of a book called Torat Ha’Melech, or the King’s Torah, a commotion immediately ensued. “Are you sure you want it?” the owner, M. Pomeranz, asked me half-jokingly. “The Shabak [Israel's internal security service] is going to want a word with you if you do.” As customers stopped browsing and began to stare in my direction, Pomeranz pointed to a security camera affixed to a wall. “See that?” he told me. “It goes straight to the Shabak!”
As soon as it was published late last year,Torat Ha’Melech sparked a national uproar (http://coteret.com/2009/11/09/settler-rabbi-publishes-the-complete-guide-to-killing-non-jews/). The controversy began when an Israeli tabloid panned the book’s contents (http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART1/964/186.html?hp=1&loc=1&tmp=3416) as “230 pages on the laws concerning the killing of non-Jews, a kind of guidebook for anyone who ponders the question of if and when it is permissible to take the life of a non-Jew.” According to the book’s author, Rabbi Yitzhak Shapira, “Non-Jews are “uncompassionate by nature” and should be killed in order to “curb their evil inclinations.” “If we kill a gentile who has has violated one of the seven commandments… there is nothing wrong with the murder,” Shapira insisted. Citing Jewish law as his source (or at least a very selective interpretation of it) he declared: “There is justification for killing babies if it is clear that they will grow up to harm us, and in such a situation they may be harmed deliberately, and not only during combat with adults.”


In January, Shapira was briefly detained by the Israeli police, while two leading rabbis who endorsed the book, Dov Lior and Yaakov Yosef, were summoned to interrogations by the Shabak. However, the rabbis refused to appear at the interrogations, essentially thumbing their noses at the state and its laws. And the government did nothing. The episode raised grave questions about the willingness of the Israeli government to confront the ferociously racist swathe of the country’s rabbinate. “Something like this has never happened before, even though it seems as if everything possible has already happened,” Israeli commentator Yossi Sarid (http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/any-bastard-can-be-a-rabbi-1.310463) remarked with astonishment. “Two rabbis [were] summoned to a police investigation, and announc[ed] that they will not go. Even settlers are kind enough to turn up.”
In response to the rabbis’ public rebuke of the state’s legal system, the Israeli Attorney General and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu kept silent. Indeed, since the publication of Torat Ha’Melech, Netanyahu has strenuously avoided criticizing its contents or the author’s leading supporters. Like so many prime ministers before him, he has been cowed into submission by Israel’s religious nationalist community. But Netanyahu appears to be particularly impotent. His weakness stems from the fact that the religious nationalist right figures prominently in his governing coalition and comprises a substantial portion of his political base. For Netanyahu, a confrontation with the rabid rabbis could amount to political suicide, or could force him into an alliance with centrist forces who do not share his commitment to the settlement enterprise in the West Bank.


On August 18, a pantheon of Israel’s top fundamentalist rabbis flaunted their political power during an ad hoc congress they convened at Jerusalem’s Ramada Renaissance hotel. Before an audience of 250 supporters including the far-right Israeli Knesset member Michael Ben-Ari, the rabbis declared in the name of the Holy Torah that would not submit to any attempt by the government to regulate their political activities — even and especially if those activities included inciting terrorist attacks against non-Jews. As one wizened rabbi after another rose up to inveigh against the government’s investigation of Torat Ha’Melech until his voice grew hoarse, the gathering degenerated into calls for murdering not just non-Jews, but secular Jews as well.
“The obligation to sacrifice your life is above all others when fighting those who wish to destroy the authority of the Torah,” bellowed Rabbi Yehoshua Shapira, head of the yeshiva in the Tel Aviv suburb of Ramat Gan. “It is not only true against non-Jews who are trying to destroy it but against Jewish people from any side.”


The government-funded terror academy

The disturbing philosophy expressed in Torat Ha’Melech emerged from the fevered atmosphere of a settlement called Yitzhar located in the northern West Bank near the Palestinian city of Nablus. Shapira leads the settlement’s Od Yosef Chai yeshiva, holding sway over a small army of fanatics who are eager to lash out at the Palestinians tending to their crops and livestock in the valleys below them. One of Shapira’s followers, an American immigrant named Jack Teitel (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1934103,00.html), has confessed to murdering two innocent Palestinians and attempting to the kill the liberal Israeli historian Ze’ev Sternhell with a mail bomb. Teitel is suspected of many more murders, including an attack on a Tel Aviv gay community center.

Despite its apparent role as a terror training institute, Od Yosef Chai has raked in nearly fifty thousand (http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/features/who-is-funding-the-rabbi-who-endorses-killing-gentile-babies-1.4005) dollars from the Israeli Ministry of Social Affairs since 2007, while the Ministry of Education has pumped over 250 thousand dollars into the yeshiva’s coffers between 2006 and 2007. The yeshiva has also benefited handsomely from donations from a tax-exempt American non-profit called the Central Fund of Israel. Located inside the Marcus Brothers Textiles store in midtown Manhattan, the Central Fund transferred (http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/features/akiva-eldar-u-s-tax-dollars-fund-rabbi-who-excused-killing-gentile-babies-1.2137) at least thirty thousand to Od Yosef Chai between 2007 and 2008.
Though he does not name “the enemy” in the pages of his book, Shapira’s longstanding connection to terrorist attacks against Palestinian civilians exposes the true identity of his targets. In 2006, Shapira was briefly held by Israeli police for urging his supporters to murder all Palestinians over the age of 13. Two years later, according to the Israeli daily Haaretz (http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/violence-follows-removal-of-trailer-from-west-bank-outpost-1.250450), he signed a rabbinical letter in support of Israeli Jews who had brutally assaulted two Arab youths on the country’s Holocaust Remembrance Day. That same year, Shapira was arrested under suspicion that he helped orchestrate a rocket attack (http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/D138BD3B6C020A5D8525747B004EDF4B) against a Palestinian village near Nablus.

Though he was released, Shapira’s name arose in connection with another act of terror, when in January, the Israeli police raided his settlement seeking the vandals who set fire to a nearby mosque. After arresting ten settlers, the Shabak held five of Shapira’s confederates under suspicion of arson.


Friends in high places

Despite his longstanding involvement in terrorism, or perhaps because of it, Shapira counts Israel’s leading fundamentalist rabbis among his supporters. His most well-known backer is Dov Lior the leader of the Shavei-Hevron yeshiva at Kiryat Arba, a radical Jewish settlement near the occupied Palestinian city of Hebron and a hotbed of Jewish terrorism. Lior has vigorously endorsed Torat Ha’Melech, calling it “very relevant, especially in this time.”
Lior’s enthusiasm for Shapira’s tract stems from his own eliminationist attitude toward non-Jews. For example, while Lior served as the IDF’s top rabbi, he instructed soldiers: “There is no such thing as civilians in wartime… A thousand non-Jewish lives are not worth a Jew’s fingernail!” Indeed, there are only a few non-Jews whose lives Lior would demand to be spared. They are captured Palestinian militants who, as he once suggested, could be used as subjects for live human medical experiments.

Otherwise, Lior appears content to watch Palestinians perish as they did at the muzzle of Dr. Baruch Goldstein’s machine gun in 1994. Goldstein, who massacred 29 Palestinians and wounded 150 in a shooting spree while they prayed in Hebron’s Cave of the Patriarchs mosque, was a compatriot and neighbor of Lior in the settlement of Kiryat Arba. At Goldstein’s funeral, Lior celebrated the massacre (http://members.tripod.com/alabasters_archive/goldstein_significance.html) as an act carried out “to sanctify the holy name of God.” He then extolled Goldstein as “a righteous man.” Thanks to Lior’s efforts, a shrine to Goldstein was constructed in center of Kiryat Arba so that locals could celebrate the killer’s deeds and pass his legacy down to future generations.

Though Lior’s inflammatory statements resulted in his being barred from running for election to the Supreme Rabbinical Council, according to journalist Daniel Estrin, the rabbi remains “a respected figure among many mainstream ZIonists.” By extension, he maintains considerable influence among religious elements in the IDF. In 2008, when the IDF’s chief rabbi, Brigadier General Avichai Ronski, brought a group of military intelligence officers to Hebron for a special tour, he concluded the day with a private meeting (http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/rabbinate-without-borders-1.260132) with Lior, who was allowed to revel the officers with his views on modern warfare — “no such thing as civilians in wartime.”
Besides Lior, Torat Ha’Melech has earned support from another nationally prominent fundamentalist rabbi: Yaakov Yosef. Yosef is the leader of the Hazon Yaakov Yeshiva in Jerusalem and a former member of Knesset. Perhaps more significantly, he is the son of Ovadiah Yosef, the former chief rabbi of Israel and spiritual leader of the Shas Party that forms a key segment of Netanyahu’s governing coalition.

Yaakov Yosef has brought his influence to bear in defense of Torat Ha’Melech, insisting at the August 18 convention in al Quds that the book was no different than the Hagadah that all Jews read from on the holiday of Passover. The Hagadah contains passages about killing non-Jews and so does the Bible, Yosef reminded his audience. “Does anyone want to change the Bible?” he asked.


Bibi buckles

Only days before direct negotiations in Washington between Israel and the Palestinian Authority planned for early September, Yaakov Yosef’s 89-year-old father, Ovadiah delivered his weekly sermon. With characteristic vitriol (http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/erekat-israeli-religious-figure-urging-genocide-of-palestinians-1.310876), he declared: “All these evil people should perish from this world… God should strike them with a plague, them and these Palestinians.”
The remarks have sparked an international furor and earned a stern rebuke from Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat. “While the PLO is ready to resume negotiations in seriousness and good faith,” Erekat remarked, “a member of the Israeli government is calling for our destruction.”
Palestinian Israeli member of Knesset Jamal Zehalka subsequently demanded that the Israeli Attorney General Yehuda Weinstein put Yosef on trial for incitement. “If, heaven forbid, a Muslim spiritual leader were to make anti-Jewish comments of this sort,” Zehalka said, “he would be arrested immediately.”

Here was a perfect opportunity for Netanyahu to demonstrate sincerity about negotiations by shedding an extremist ally in the name of securing peace. All he had to do was forcefully reject Yosef’s genocidal comments — a feat made all the easier by the White House’s condemnation of the rabbi. But the Israeli Prime Minister ducked for political cover instead, issuing a canned statement through his office. “Rabbi Ovadiah Yosef’s remarks do not reflect Netanyahu’s views,” the statement read, “nor do they reflect the position of the Israeli government.”
Thus on the eve of peace negotiations, Bibi chose political expediency over condemning the murderous oath of a coalition partner.



http://maxblumenthal.com/2010/08/how-to-kill-goyim-and-influence-people-leading-israeli-rabbis-defend-manual-for-for-killing-non-jews/

Nolan
10th March 2011, 06:10
"Never again."

Sinister Cultural Marxist
10th March 2011, 15:34
Oh... Netenyahu so wants to be a Churchill, instead he's just another Hindenburg.

When will there be an Israeli politician with the balls to take on these people?

ComradeMan
11th March 2011, 09:38
Oh... Netenyahu so wants to be a Churchill, instead he's just another Hindenburg.

When will there be an Israeli politician with the balls to take on these people?

In the past successive Israeli governments took a harder line on these people and some of these Rabbis were arrested. It seems the current government does not wish to provoke the settler "rightwing" or fanatics and Netanyahu's office just came out with some statement or other saying that it does not reflect his views.

ComradeMan
12th March 2011, 11:46
A religious response

Exodus 23:9 (http://bible.cc/exodus/23-9.htm) "Do not oppress an alien; you yourselves know how it feels to be aliens, because you were aliens in Egypt.
Leviticus 19:13 (http://bible.cc/leviticus/19-13.htm) "'Do not defraud your neighbor or rob him. "'Do not hold back the wages of a hired man overnight.
Leviticus 19:33 (http://bible.cc/leviticus/19-33.htm) "'When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him.
Leviticus 19:34 (http://bible.cc/leviticus/19-34.htm) The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 25:35 (http://bible.cc/leviticus/25-35.htm) "'If one of your countrymen becomes poor and is unable to support himself among you, help him as you would an alien or a temporary resident, so he can continue to live among you.
Deuteronomy 1:16 (http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/1-16.htm) And I charged your judges at that time: Hear the disputes between your brothers and judge fairly, whether the case is between brother Israelites or between one of them and an alien.
Deuteronomy 10:19 (http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/10-19.htm) And you are to love those who are aliens, for you yourselves were aliens in Egypt.
Deuteronomy 23:7 (http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/23-7.htm) Do not abhor an Edomite, for he is your brother. Do not abhor an Egyptian, because you lived as an alien in his country.
Deuteronomy 23:16 (http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/23-16.htm) Let him live among you wherever he likes and in whatever town he chooses. Do not oppress him.
Deuteronomy 27:19 (http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/27-19.htm) "Cursed is the man who withholds justice from the alien, the fatherless or the widow." Then all the people shall say, "Amen!"
Psalm 146:9 (http://bible.cc/psalms/146-9.htm) The LORD watches over the alien and sustains the fatherless and the widow, but he frustrates the ways of the wicked.

Nolan
12th March 2011, 20:57
A religious response

Exodus 23:9 (http://bible.cc/exodus/23-9.htm) "Do not oppress an alien; you yourselves know how it feels to be aliens, because you were aliens in Egypt.
Leviticus 19:13 (http://bible.cc/leviticus/19-13.htm) "'Do not defraud your neighbor or rob him. "'Do not hold back the wages of a hired man overnight.
Leviticus 19:33 (http://bible.cc/leviticus/19-33.htm) "'When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him.
Leviticus 19:34 (http://bible.cc/leviticus/19-34.htm) The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 25:35 (http://bible.cc/leviticus/25-35.htm) "'If one of your countrymen becomes poor and is unable to support himself among you, help him as you would an alien or a temporary resident, so he can continue to live among you.
Deuteronomy 1:16 (http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/1-16.htm) And I charged your judges at that time: Hear the disputes between your brothers and judge fairly, whether the case is between brother Israelites or between one of them and an alien.
Deuteronomy 10:19 (http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/10-19.htm) And you are to love those who are aliens, for you yourselves were aliens in Egypt.
Deuteronomy 23:7 (http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/23-7.htm) Do not abhor an Edomite, for he is your brother. Do not abhor an Egyptian, because you lived as an alien in his country.
Deuteronomy 23:16 (http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/23-16.htm) Let him live among you wherever he likes and in whatever town he chooses. Do not oppress him.
Deuteronomy 27:19 (http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/27-19.htm) "Cursed is the man who withholds justice from the alien, the fatherless or the widow." Then all the people shall say, "Amen!"
Psalm 146:9 (http://bible.cc/psalms/146-9.htm) The LORD watches over the alien and sustains the fatherless and the widow, but he frustrates the ways of the wicked.


Either perspective cherry-picks.

NGNM85
13th March 2011, 08:28
A religious response ...

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

1)If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

While the Israelites were camped at Acacia, some of the men defiled themselves by sleeping with the local Moabite women. These women invited them to attend sacrifices to their gods, and soon the Israelites were feasting with them and worshiping the gods of Moab. Before long Israel was joining in the worship of Baal of Peor, causing the LORD's anger to blaze against his people. The LORD issued the following command to Moses: "Seize all the ringleaders and execute them before the LORD in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn away from the people of Israel." So Moses ordered Israel's judges to execute everyone who had joined in worshiping Baal of Peor. Just then one of the Israelite men brought a Midianite woman into the camp, right before the eyes of Moses and all the people, as they were weeping at the entrance of the Tabernacle. When Phinehas son of Eleazar and grandson of Aaron the priest saw this, he jumped up and left the assembly. Then he took a spear and rushed after the man into his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man's body and into the woman's stomach. So the plague against the Israelites was stopped, but not before 24,000 people had died. (Numbers 25:1-9 NLT)

ComradeMan
13th March 2011, 12:41
@Nolan and NGNM85

I find your responses slightly irritating. This so-called Torah of the Kings is a result of cherrypicking in my opinion and the point of the response was to show that you cannot cherrypick but you have to balance one thing against another. Go with the positive balance. NGNM's respose has little or nothing to do with ancient Jewish law viz. foreigners/non-Jews and is more about the Israelites themselves.

Quite frankly if you are going to quote scripture in an argument you had better do better than this.

What are you trying to say? That Judaism is inherently evil? :rolleyes:

psgchisolm
13th March 2011, 13:29
@Nolan and NGNM85

I find your responses slightly irritating. This so-called Torah of the Kings is a result of cherrypicking in my opinion and the point of the response was to show that you cannot cherrypick but you have to balance one thing against another. Go with the positive balance. NGNM's respose has little or nothing to do with ancient Jewish law viz. foreigners/non-Jews and is more about the Israelites themselves.

Quite frankly if you are going to quote scripture in an argument you had better do better than this.

What are you trying to say? That Judaism is inherently evil? :rolleyes:
They love to cherry-pick the bad quote and use whatever fits what they want to picture religion as. It's quite a double standard because whenever a topic comes up asking whether Marx was homophobic everyone jumps to his defense as "it was the times everyone did it." Yet when it's about non-leftists they are quick to attack. Like Thomas Jefferson. He owned slaves, everyone did it. He was a tyrant.
A nice example is this post which quite a good number of people rep'd
http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2014073&postcount=2
as well as the thread
http://www.revleft.com/vb/marx-and-homophobia-t149593/index.html?&highlight=Marx+Homo
Which is countered by this thread http://www.revleft.com/vb/thomas-jefferson-really-t150080/index.html?&highlight=Thomas+Jefferson

empiredestoryer
13th March 2011, 14:23
hitler must be very proud of the state of isreal

Nolan
13th March 2011, 17:54
@Nolan and NGNM85

I find your responses slightly irritating. This so-called Torah of the Kings is a result of cherrypicking in my opinion and the point of the response was to show that you cannot cherrypick but you have to balance one thing against another. Go with the positive balance.

'Balance one thing against another' and 'go with the positive balance?' You mean follow whatever your own interpretation is. We call that cherry-picking.


Quite frankly if you are going to quote scripture in an argument you had better do better than this. I was a Christian once upon a time, and I'm quite familiar with the old testament. It is a disgusting document.

It's disgusting because people seek to impose that type of society on the modern world, effectively undoing every progressive change bourgeois liberalism and working class struggle have made.


What are you trying to say? That Judaism is inherently evil? :rolleyes:Yes. I await the charges of antisemitism.

NGNM85
14th March 2011, 04:06
@Nolan and NGNM85

I find your responses slightly irritating. This so-called Torah of the Kings is a result of cherrypicking in my opinion and the point of the response was to show that you cannot cherrypick but you have to balance one thing against another. Go with the positive balance. NGNM's respose has little or nothing to do with ancient Jewish law viz. foreigners/non-Jews and is more about the Israelites themselves.

I am completely unmoved by this. It's only cherry-picking when you pick out the egregious stuff. When you pull out just the flowery parts, however, you're 'fair and balanced', to borrow a phrase. These parts are never questioned, and presented as self-reinforcing proof of the benevolence of Christianity. Only when one comes to some part about being commanded to slay heretics, murder their children, and rape their women, suddenly, you need a PhD. in Theology. Christianity, like all the Abrahamic religions, has a long, bloody history, one need only flip through the pages to see why.


@What are you trying to say? That Judaism is inherently evil? :rolleyes:

I generally avoid using words like 'evil.' I would say that Judaism, like it's younger siblings, is hateful, primitive, and (presently) completely antithetical to human progress.

Revolution starts with U
14th March 2011, 07:44
The fact that you can find "kill the non-believer" and "be kind to the alien" both in the same testament should just immediately show you how valuable abrahmic religion is.

Viet Minh
14th March 2011, 09:26
All religions can be interpreted as evil if we actively seek out evidence to support that claim, equally we could find some argument to defend that same religion as morally superior. Its equally bullshit though, everyone has the right to follow a religion, what matters is when that is used to attack others, which is the real issue.


hitler must be very proud of the state of isreal

Stalin must be very proud of the state of Chechnya. What? I thought this was disjointed gibberish hour..


I am completely unmoved by this. It's only cherry-picking when you pick out the egregious stuff. When you pull out just the flowery parts, however, you're 'fair and balanced', to borrow a phrase. These parts are never questioned, and presented as self-reinforcing proof of the benevolence of Christianity. Only when one comes to some part about being commanded to slay heretics, murder their children, and rape their women, suddenly, you need a PhD. in Theology. Christianity, like all the Abrahamic religions, has a long, bloody history, one need only flip through the pages to see why.

I generally avoid using words like 'evil.' I would say that Judaism, like it's younger siblings, is hateful, primitive, and (presently) completely antithetical to human progress.

Replace Christianity with Communism, look familiar? The issue is not the ideology itself, its the despots who abuse it to their advantage.


The fact that you can find "kill the non-believer" and "be kind to the alien" both in the same testament should just immediately show you how valuable abrahmic religion is.

Again the issue is not the religion (although incidentally I agree like all other religions its a load of balls) the issue here is how its misused to justify murder.

NGNM85
14th March 2011, 17:36
Replace Christianity with Communism, look familiar? The issue is not the ideology itself, its the despots who abuse it to their advantage.

I'm not a communist.

Furthermore, most communist literature I have read does not suggest the kind of brutality one finds in the scripture.


Again the issue is not the religion (although incidentally I agree like all other religions its a load of balls) the issue here is how its misused to justify murder.

No, I think most violent religious extremists are following their respective faiths to the letter, I think that's the problem.

psgchisolm
14th March 2011, 17:59
I'm not a communist.

Furthermore, most communist literature I have read does not suggest the kind of brutality one finds in the scripture.



No, I think most violent religious extremists are following their respective faiths to the letter, I think that's the problem.
And this disproves what exactly? Statement is still the same, you can replace communism and it fits just as nice.

But stomping on a fascists head is ok yes? Along with throwing firebombs at police hmmm?

NGNM85
14th March 2011, 20:10
And this disproves what exactly?

I only meant to point out that even if the fundamentals of communism included the kind of barbarism included in the scrupture, it would make no difference for me.


Statement is still the same, you can replace communism and it fits just as nice.

No, it doesn't.


But stomping on a fascists head is ok yes? Along with throwing firebombs at police hmmm?

Only if it's warranted. In Russia, China, North Korea, etc., violents would almost assuredly be necessary to achieve real, substantial social change, because they are police states almost totally devoid of democracy of any kind. The situation in the United States, or Western Europe is different. My philosophy, Anarchism, does not endorse violence for the sake of violence, only when there really is no choice. This is not remotely comperable to the Abrahamic faiths which command one to commit brutal violence that serves no legitimate social purpose, unless one accepts the metaphysical claims of those faiths.

Viet Minh
15th March 2011, 04:34
I'm not a communist.

Furthermore, most communist literature I have read does not suggest the kind of brutality one finds in the scripture.

Well in general revolutions are not bloodless. But regardless, we're talking about ideologies justifying actions, who decides if your anarchist ideology is more valid than say a christian or buddhist or jedi one? And then how many lives does that entitle you to take?


No, I think most violent religious extremists are following their respective faiths to the letter, I think that's the problem.

Agreed, I'm just answering some people in this thread who seem to be pinpointing judaism as an evil religion, all religions could be interpreted as evil, by their scriptures alone, let alone the deeds done in their name. The issue is where religions attack each other, and most are guilty of that. Even that most peaceful of religions, Buddhism, has inspired violence, for example in Sri Lanka and Burma.


No, it doesn't.


I am completely unmoved by this. It's only cherry-picking when you pick out the egregious stuff. When you pull out just the flowery parts, however, you're 'fair and balanced', to borrow a phrase. These parts are never questioned, and presented as self-reinforcing proof of the benevolence of Communism. Only when one comes to some part about being commanded to slay capitalists, murder their children, and rape their women, suddenly, you need a PhD. in politics. Communism, like all the Leftist ideologies, has a long, bloody history, one need only flip through the pages to see why.

What doesn't fit here, with a few minor tweaks? Granted its a very biased opinion of the subject.. ;)


Only if it's warranted. In Russia, China, North Korea, etc., violents would almost assuredly be necessary to achieve real, substantial social change, because they are police states almost totally devoid of democracy of any kind. The situation in the United States, or Western Europe is different. My philosophy, Anarchism, does not endorse violence for the sake of violence, only when there really is no choice. This is not remotely comperable to the Abrahamic faiths which command one to commit brutal violence that serves no legitimate social purpose, unless one accepts the metaphysical claims of those faiths.

And therein lies the point, violence is only ever justified as self-defense, regardless of the ideology behind it. Unless we're going to ban religion and thoughtcrime its basically a moot point.

The real issue here is Israel's actions, not Judaism in general, in fact attacking Judaism is counter-productive, because all they will do is accuse you of anti-semitism, and we go down that whole avenue once again, and ignore the real problems at hand.

Ocean Seal
15th March 2011, 04:57
Attention people. This is the start of something far worse. In the past reactionaries at least tried to justify this as 'fighting terrorism' when it just becomes an issue of admitting you are performing genocide the results can be far worse. Israel was once believed to ward off racist genocide, now they seem to be willing to participate in it.

Revolution starts with U
15th March 2011, 06:32
Well in general revolutions are not bloodless. But regardless, we're talking about ideologies justifying actions, who decides if your anarchist ideology is more valid than say a christian or buddhist or jedi one? And then how many lives does that entitle you to take?

42



What doesn't fit here, with a few minor tweaks? Granted its a very biased opinion of the subject.. ;)

None of it does. First, communism does not have a long history, tho it has been bloody. But mostly it's because I don't recall Marx openly advocating the decapitation of capitalist, and the deflowering of theri daughters.
And Im not a communist either :lol:




And therein lies the point, violence is only ever justified as self-defense, regardless of the ideology behind it. Unless we're going to ban religion and thoughtcrime its basically a moot point.

Is it even justified in self-defense? You could have avoided it. You could even let them kill you.
It's necessary for self-oreservation. But I scant see where it's justified.

Viet Minh
15th March 2011, 07:00
42

None of it does. First, communism does not have a long history, tho it has been bloody. But mostly it's because I don't recall Marx openly advocating the decapitation of capitalist, and the deflowering of theri daughters.
And Im not a communist either :lol:

Is it even justified in self-defense? You could have avoided it. You could even let them kill you.
It's necessary for self-oreservation. But I scant see where it's justified.

Okay I largely agree with what you and NGMNMNMG46635 :p are saying, my position was its pointless to start down the road of theological discussions, because a) they're endless (especially since religious people are so damn stubborn) b) it doesn't really go anywhere and c) they avoid the main issues here. Also because they're usually about as boring as a sunday in church. I'm not trying to be a tinpot dictator here, you can discuss religion all you like, this is a section dedicated entirely to it after all, but I think its pointless to start flinging accusations at any particular religion, in fairness NGN didn't he was talking about Abrahamic faiths, I was replying to certain other aspects of his post.

NGNM85
16th March 2011, 06:43
Well in general revolutions are not bloodless.

It depends on how you define 'revolution.'


But regardless, we're talking about ideologies justifying actions, who decides if your anarchist ideology is more valid than say a christian or buddhist or jedi one?

Well, simply put, because Anarchism is a materialist philosophy based on facts and reason.


And then how many lives does that entitle you to take?

I would say that deliberately taking a life is only justified in terms of self defense.


Agreed, I'm just answering some people in this thread who seem to be pinpointing judaism as an evil religion, all religions could be interpreted as evil, by their scriptures alone, let alone the deeds done in their name. The issue is where religions attack each other, and most are guilty of that. Even that most peaceful of religions, Buddhism, has inspired violence, for example in Sri Lanka and Burma.

Tibetan Buddhism, at least, it's modern variant, seems mostly harmless. However, that doesn't mean it isn't nonsense, or that we shouldn't get rid of it.
Also, as you pointed out, I don't bear any special prejudice towards judaism, I'm against religion.


What doesn't fit here, with a few minor tweaks? Granted its a very biased opinion of the subject.. ;)

You might want to ask a communist. However, I would say that there are a number of distinctions. First of all, communism does not have any one central text, per se, although, Marx's Manifesto is pretty close. However, while it can certainly be interpreted different ways, The Communist Manifesto does not make the specific exhortations to commit brutality that one finds in scripture.


And therein lies the point, violence is only ever justified as self-defense, regardless of the ideology behind it.

Yes, but we can evaluate the validity of those statements.



Unless we're going to ban religion and thoughtcrime its basically a moot point.

I've never suggested anything of the sort. Actually, I'm militantly opposed to the idea. No, there are many ideas that are effectively dead. Darwin, Einstein, Hawking, etc., didn't have to use violence, they simply came up with (substantially) better ideas, and the old ones faded into history. At this point, religion really doesn't serve a practical purpose, anymore, so there's no reason it couldn't join the Ptolemaic model of the cosmos in the graveyard of dead ideas.


The real issue here is Israel's actions, not Judaism in general, in fact attacking Judaism is counter-productive, because all they will do is accuse you of anti-semitism, and we go down that whole avenue once again, and ignore the real problems at hand.

All one has to do to be accused of anti-semitism is to suggest that the IDF not use Palestinian children for target practice. However, this is merely a tactical question, and, as previously established, there's no bias on my part.