How being race towards the majority is racist?

[The Red Next Door]

I am not trying to troll, but white people should not be offended, christ, you are the majority and you get treated better than black people. Cracker does not seem that all offensive, your call for unity make you bilind to the fact that us non white are not the same.


white people do not get pull over more than non white or likely to be put in jail longer for political activity and such.

so, stop pretending that white people and black people are alike, when it comes to opression.

[Fulanito de Tal]

White Privilege: http://www.nymbp.org/reference/WhitePrivilege.pdf

[PhoenixAsh]

I get what you are saying...and on a certain level I agree with you.

Now I agree that the term cracker is not so terribly offensive...but that doesn't mean the intention behind isn't still basically racist.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Should white people be offended when white people are attacked just for the simple fact that they are white?

[StalinFanboy]

Racism doesn't need to be structural to be racist and stupid.

[Robocommie]

Should white people be offended when white people are attacked just for the simple fact that they are white?

Does that shit even happen?

[ZeroNowhere]

Does that shit even happen?Is this relevant to the point? I'm not sure that it is.

In any case, it seems a bit strange to suggest that one cannot be racist against a given race simply because they form the majority of a population and because many other people aren't racist against them.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Racism as a structural ideology doesn't really exist against white people. Bigotry sometimes does, though.

It doesn't matter what race or ethnicity you are...chances are there's someone out there somewhere who doesn't like you because of it. "Racism" is something that's inextricably tied to human economic developments in history, while bigotry represents something more primordial...that's how I've looked at it, anyway.


White Privilege: http://www.nymbp.org/reference/WhitePrivilege.pdf (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.nymbp.org/reference/WhitePrivilege.pdf)

I'm not going to deny that "white privilege" exists, because it does, but a lot of the "white privilege" literature amounts to a lot of navel-gazing that really goes nowhere in looking at serious issues related to race & class. This problem is particularly accute in anarchist groups/anarchist activists, I've noticed, where identity politics that run exclusively along the lines of women/p.o.c./queer liberation is the primary focus of the organization or individual, with maybe "working people" added as a footnote. I've read that government agencies love using women and people of color as informants to infiltrate anarchist groups, because they know the liberal guilt will make getting info that much easier.

[RedSonRising]

Prejudice against white people is certainly just cause for an individual to be offended, I think. Broader social structures favoring a population doesn't mean that judging their character or insulting them on an individual basis based on that premise is right.


I get pretty upset however when privileged white people complain about "racism" as if their life chances are somehow drastically reduced by the bigotry of one person or the inclusion of minority interests in institutions such as education.

[Iraultzaile Ezkerreko]

I hate the term "white privilege". It shouldn't be a privilege to not get harassed in your neighborhood or be singled-out for arrest or harsher sentencing in the judicial system. Those should be RIGHTS, and the fact that their denied to people of color doesn't mean the communities of color can't work together with white activists or need to constantly bring up "white privilege" because from what I've observed that just leads to ID politics, which personally seems like people patronizing the struggles of communities of color, women, and LGBTQ people as if saying "you wouldn't be good enough for this if our guilt didn't make us force you to the forefront of every struggle." Even though I don't fit in those communities, I often feel like the fact that I'm working class and my family has had some particularly rough struggles makes some of the student activists on campus play a form of ID politics but with working class people, I'm always forced to the forefront, "TELL YOUR STORY! TELL YOUR STORY!" It's like they don't have any politics to back up their positions, just some sort of pity and guilt about the plight of the working class and they need someone to be moralistic and have a pity party around instead of developing politics and making the struggle more coherent.

[Crux]

I am not trying to troll, but white people should not be offended, christ, you are the majority and you get treated better than black people. Cracker does not seem that all offensive, your call for unity make you bilind to the fact that us non white are not the same.


white people do not get pull over more than non white or likely to be put in jail longer for political activity and such.

so, stop pretending that white people and black people are alike, when it comes to opression.
Although I must confess I still find it hard to believe you're not just some white guy trolling us, yes "anti-white" racism is bullshit. It doesn't make your postings any smarter though.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

"cracker" is not an offensive term to me, but I certainly find anti-white bigotry to be offensive. That prat Derb who was posting about the evils of "white marxists" until he was banned pretty quickly is a good example of what I'm talking about.

[the last donut of the night]

Although I must confess I still find it hard to believe you're not just some white guy trolling us, yes "anti-white" racism is bullshit. It doesn't make your postings any smarter though.

TRND is black, fyi.

[gorillafuck]

Does that shit even happen?It does to a lesser degree, yes. Ian Mackaye used to get beaten up for being white.

Not that I consider anti-white bigotry to be nearly to the same degree as anti-black racism. It's not at all.

[Os Cangaceiros]

It does to a lesser degree, yes. Ian Mackaye used to get beaten up for being white.

Not that I consider anti-white bigotry to be nearly to the same degree as anti-black bigotry.

I guess you could say he was "guilty of being white". :closedeyes:

[crazyirish93]

So if white people where the minority it would be ok to call the majority the n word etc? and would not the word cracker become racist then too by your logic.:confused:

[Exakt]

"How is being racist towards the black majority in apartheid South Africa racist?"

[PhoenixAsh]

White people are actually the minority seen globally....just throwing the numbers out there...not arguing at all that white people overal are not the ones who are better off.


Now...imperialism used previously oppressed minorities to oppress mayorities during the colonial occupation of countries and regions. When these countries and area's were becomming independent these minorities became oppressed in turn again....only this time justified by them having collaborated with the colonial power.



Some would argue that black people are more discriminated against than asian people...who are more discriminated against than ....etc. etc.

Truth is discrimination can not be qualified or quantified....

Its the same motivation and the same false generalistioan based on race and ethnic origins.

And eventhough it may not be ending up in the same results for each and every group...because some groups are in power and others are not...it would still be the same if the tables were turned...simply because the origins of the sentiment are the same.

[Apoi_Viitor]

so, stop pretending that white people and black people are alike, when it comes to opression.

Does anyone here actually believe that whites and blacks are 'equally' oppressed?

[Unclebananahead]

Not trying to go OT, but this thread reminds me of the issue of reparations, in which it's claimed that some kind of restitution will make up for, or balance out some past injustice committed by one group against another, despite the fact that an enormous amount of time has passed. I think that those advocating reparations generally suffer from not having a class analysis. It's kind of like those advocating 'black capitalism.' They don't realize that just getting some money won't really liberate black people, because the same oppressive capitalist framework is in place, in which society's productive assets (MOP) are still owned privately.

[Triple A]

The fact is that there are racists in every race and it is racist to think otherwise.:)
We seen anti-white racism(Zimbabwe)... and we seen anti black and anti mexican racism(USA)...
The fact is that we should oppose every kind of racism, I hate people that use words like niger and I hate people that say cracker (in offensive ways).

[Sasha]

a few ago i banned a (troll) user for, among others, this post:


Western White Marxists don't care about the truth. They prefer to stand beside the imperialist interests of their own governments, instead of standing with people of Africa against imperialism.

Nothing good has ever came from American and European White Marxists. They have lead no revolutions, they have never been able to halt their own governments imperialist adventures, they have made no victories for their own people worth even mentioning, and yet these White Marxists want to lecture the world about the evils of Gaddafi.

I think it is you who are evil.anyone willing to argue that that post is not deeply insulting and racist towards all the dedicated white activists on this forum?

yes, anti-white racism exist, is it an widespread, let alone an institutional problem? no. should we still condemn it the few times it rears its head? yes.

[727Goon]

There are three types of black people and I think we all know what type TRND is. You've got Negroes, Niggas, and African Americans. Negroes are the straight up uncle tom types. Your Barack Obamas, your Clarence Thomas, your Bill Cosbys. These are the type of black people who would sell us out to the white man to be an honorary police officer. Then you've got your African Americans. TRND is an African American. African Americans claim to know what's best for us. They probably did really well in the white mans school and hang out with a lot of white people. They might even talk about racism, lecture all their white liberal friends about racism, talk about how we need "Education" and talk about how rap culture is destroying are youth. They might even call themselves Africans and pretend to be radicals. But for all their posturing the African American don't know shit about the black community, and all they'll ever be good for is begging their white activist friends for acceptance. Then we've got the third group, to which I belong. We got the Niggas. Niggas hate African Americans. Niggas know an African American only ammount to something cause a white man put him there. Niggas don't do as well in school as African Americans. This is not to say were not intelligent. Shit, you may see a nigga post a StatusLikThis# on facebook, but we can even present ourselves well in white dominated environments, like this forum. Thats how niggas get jobs, and we can get better jobs than an African American, without selling out, cause we pimp the fuckin system. Us niggas are the heart and soul of the black community. We dont sell out or disown our community even if we make it. We're the musicians, actors, athletes, and even activists white kids and black kids look up to. We talk hood, even though we "know better". But the most important thing is that we stay true to ourselves and our community, while an African American stay beggin on his knees for the white mans acceptance.

[jinx92]

Beng racist towards the racial group that happens to be the majority in a given country is still racism none the less. Of course non whites have always faced more discrimination in a country like a America, but to fight racism with racism will only breed more racism on both sides of the fence. And blacks and whites in America both have different cultures, so yes they are different in that respect, but I personally believe that socialis will bring about a new culture which will eventually wipe out this cultural differences. Maybe I'm wrong on that, but that's how i see it.

[Crux]

TRND is black, fyi.
Yet he acts like how I would expect a white troll to. Funny that.

[Pretty Flaco]

Racism is something we as leftists should oppose, regardless of what group it's against. We're not out for vengeance, but for improvement.

[727Goon]

Fair enough we should oppose racism against everyone on a social level, but where in the history of the world has there ever been systematic racism against white people.

[Rafiq]

That's a terrible statement. You're looking at society through race and not class. That's not good at all mate, not good at all.

[Tablo]

Fair enough we should oppose racism against everyone on a social level, but where in the history of the world has there ever been systematic racism against white people.
There has been systematic racism against ethnic groups that happen to be what we would consider white in the racial social construct. I don't think I can name any instances where white people as a whole have been targeted though.

[psgchisolm]

There are three types of black people and I think we all know what type TRND is. You've got Negroes, Niggas, and African Americans. Negroes are the straight up uncle tom types. Your Barack Obamas, your Clarence Thomas, your Bill Cosbys. These are the type of black people who would sell us out to the white man to be an honorary police officer. Then you've got your African Americans. TRND is an African American. African Americans claim to know what's best for us. They probably did really well in the white mans school and hang out with a lot of white people. They might even talk about racism, lecture all their white liberal friends about racism, talk about how we need "Education" and talk about how rap culture is destroying are youth. They might even call themselves Africans and pretend to be radicals. But for all their posturing the African American don't know shit about the black community, and all they'll ever be good for is begging their white activist friends for acceptance. Then we've got the third group, to which I belong. We got the Niggas. Niggas hate African Americans. Niggas know an African American only ammount to something cause a white man put him there. Niggas don't do as well in school as African Americans. This is not to say were not intelligent. Shit, you may see a nigga post a StatusLikThis# on facebook, but we can even present ourselves well in white dominated environments, like this forum. Thats how niggas get jobs, and we can get better jobs than an African American, without selling out, cause we pimp the fuckin system. Us niggas are the heart and soul of the black community. We dont sell out or disown our community even if we make it. We're the musicians, actors, athletes, and even activists white kids and black kids look up to. We talk hood, even though we "know better". But the most important thing is that we stay true to ourselves and our community, while an African American stay beggin on his knees for the white mans acceptance.
Is no one going to speak out against this bullshit? Regardless of what type of black person you are. YOU'RE BLACK. I would know myself. Care to know? Because I'm black. I don't see how you can possibly classify every black person into 3 categories. :confused: Not any idea what your train of thought is here, but I think it's garbage for the most part.

[StalinFanboy]

Fair enough we should oppose racism against everyone on a social level, but where in the history of the world has there ever been systematic racism against white people.
What constitutes "White" has changed many, many times, one of the reasons why race is absolute bullshit. Irish people are a great example of a group of people who are now considered white, but were once at the receiving end of structural racism. Some would argue that they still are, but not in America.

[gorillafuck]

That's a terrible statement. You're looking at society through race and not class. That's not good at all mate, not good at all.Class analysis and class based politics doesn't mean denying reality about racial oppression.


Fair enough we should oppose racism against everyone on a social level, but where in the history of the world has there ever been systematic racism against white people.Ireland, but it was by other white people. I can't think of any involving white people being oppressed by non-white people.

[Sasha]

What constitutes "White" has changed many, many times, one of the reasons why race is absolute bullshit. Irish people are a great example of a group of people who are now considered white, but were once at the receiving end of structural racism. Some would argue that they still are, but not in America.

tell me, i lost count how many times my opinion on this board was cast aside because i, as an white man, couldn't know what discrimination was. Yet, my mums family is jewish and my dads is catholic and i'm queer. as i live in an until recently hardcore protestant country that suffered though nazi occupation i think i pretty fucking well now what discrimination, both personal, as institutional to even genocidal is.

[StalinFanboy]

tell me, i lost count how many times my opinion on this board was cast aside because i, as an white man, couldn't know what discrimination was. Yet, my mums family is jewish and my dads is catholic and i'm queer. as i live in an until recently hardcore protestant country that suffered though nazi occupation i think i pretty fucking well now what discrimination, both personal, as institutional to even genocidal is.

It's fuckin' absurd how far people take that shit. It's like some people assume that if you're white, life is fuckin' awesome and all the cops and capitalists love you. You always have a well paying job, and your self-esteem is awesome.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Does that shit even happen?
It's happened to me personally.

[The Red Next Door]

There are three types of black people and I think we all know what type TRND is. You've got Negroes, Niggas, and African Americans. Negroes are the straight up uncle tom types. Your Barack Obamas, your Clarence Thomas, your Bill Cosbys. These are the type of black people who would sell us out to the white man to be an honorary police officer. Then you've got your African Americans. TRND is an African American. African Americans claim to know what's best for us. They probably did really well in the white mans school and hang out with a lot of white people. They might even talk about racism, lecture all their white liberal friends about racism, talk about how we need "Education" and talk about how rap culture is destroying are youth. They might even call themselves Africans and pretend to be radicals. But for all their posturing the African American don't know shit about the black community, and all they'll ever be good for is begging their white activist friends for acceptance. Then we've got the third group, to which I belong. We got the Niggas. Niggas hate African Americans. Niggas know an African American only ammount to something cause a white man put him there. Niggas don't do as well in school as African Americans. This is not to say were not intelligent. Shit, you may see a nigga post a StatusLikThis# on facebook, but we can even present ourselves well in white dominated environments, like this forum. Thats how niggas get jobs, and we can get better jobs than an African American, without selling out, cause we pimp the fuckin system. Us niggas are the heart and soul of the black community. We dont sell out or disown our community even if we make it. We're the musicians, actors, athletes, and even activists white kids and black kids look up to. We talk hood, even though we "know better". But the most important thing is that we stay true to ourselves and our community, while an African American stay beggin on his knees for the white mans acceptance.

i went to an all black schools from elementry to HS. When I was a liberal asshole, i used to think like that but not anymore. I do not know what you are talking, my white friends don't even give a damn about politics, and i listen to rap music fyi, just not the crap on the radio,

[The Red Next Door]

i am not saying, we should not stand up against racism against white, i am just pointing that out there.

[Geiseric]

I'm against all racism, even if being part of a race has bonuses. I'm for equality of all races, and i'd be offended if somebody was racist towards me since i'm not racist myself, just for being white. If it was a class issue, like ohh I hate that lower middle class white kid, then I guess that's more understandable since they may for some reason be jealous against my lower middle class ness, but i'm against racism plain and simple.

[The Red Next Door]

There are three types of black people and I think we all know what type TRND is. You've got Negroes, Niggas, and African Americans. Negroes are the straight up uncle tom types. Your Barack Obamas, your Clarence Thomas, your Bill Cosbys. These are the type of black people who would sell us out to the white man to be an honorary police officer. Then you've got your African Americans. TRND is an African American. African Americans claim to know what's best for us. They probably did really well in the white mans school and hang out with a lot of white people. They might even talk about racism, lecture all their white liberal friends about racism, talk about how we need "Education" and talk about how rap culture is destroying are youth. They might even call themselves Africans and pretend to be radicals. But for all their posturing the African American don't know shit about the black community, and all they'll ever be good for is begging their white activist friends for acceptance. Then we've got the third group, to which I belong. We got the Niggas. Niggas hate African Americans. Niggas know an African American only ammount to something cause a white man put him there. Niggas don't do as well in school as African Americans. This is not to say were not intelligent. Shit, you may see a nigga post a StatusLikThis# on facebook, but we can even present ourselves well in white dominated environments, like this forum. Thats how niggas get jobs, and we can get better jobs than an African American, without selling out, cause we pimp the fuckin system. Us niggas are the heart and soul of the black community. We dont sell out or disown our community even if we make it. We're the musicians, actors, athletes, and even activists white kids and black kids look up to. We talk hood, even though we "know better". But the most important thing is that we stay true to ourselves and our community, while an African American stay beggin on his knees for the white mans acceptance.

fyi my friends are the fucking color of the rainbow.

[danyboy27]

fyi my friends are the fucking color of the rainbow.

you got blue friend?

[727Goon]

Is no one going to speak out against this bullshit? Regardless of what type of black person you are. YOU'RE BLACK. I would know myself. Care to know? Because I'm black. I don't see how you can possibly classify every black person into 3 categories. :confused: Not any idea what your train of thought is here, but I think it's garbage for the most part.

MX divided blacks into field niggas and house niggas, I'm just saying there's more than one kind of Uncle Tom.

[The Red Next Door]

you got blue friend?
yes. :D

[727Goon]

i went to an all black schools from elementry to HS. When I was a liberal asshole, i used to think like that but not anymore. I do not know what you are talking, my white friends don't even give a damn about politics, and i listen to rap music fyi, just not the crap on the radio,

Ok, but you come on here trying to convince all these white people that racism against blacks is worse than racism against whites, like they give a damn. Either they're down for our problems or not, theres no point in trying to convince them that racism is bad when they've grown up in a culture where we're portrayed as the number one enemy.

[727Goon]

fyi my friends are the fucking color of the rainbow.

See that's some African American shit right there :lol:

[The Red Next Door]

Ok, but you come on here trying to convince all these white people that racism against blacks is worse than racism against whites, like they give a damn. Either they're down for our problems or not, theres no point in trying to convince them that racism is bad when they've grown up in a culture where we're portrayed as the number one enemy.

yet again just saying.

[727Goon]

I dont see what the point of looking for white acceptance is though. Black Power isnt about white people giving you your freedom, no one can give it to you, you have to take it.

[gorillafuck]

breaking down divides between races is part of class politics and working class unity.

[The Red Next Door]

I dont see what the point of looking for white acceptance is though. Black Power isnt about white people giving you your freedom, no one can give it to you, you have to take it.


huh? i think you mess the point, and i am not. what are you talking about?

i am confuse.

[727Goon]

You're looking for white peoples acceptance by talking about how racism against black people is worse than racist against white people. I think most activists already agree with this and the ones who dont you wont win over. Theres no point in trying to win over racists, we have to fight back against racism.

[727Goon]

breaking down divides between races is part of class politics and working class unity.

Ok, we'll stop caring about race when there's equality.

[gorillafuck]

Ok, we'll stop caring about race when there's equality.Huh? I didn't say stop caring about race at all (dunno how you got that). I said racism isn't going to go away as long as there's capitalism and i don't see how trying to talk about racism is a bad thing, it's more likely to foster class unity and also will just create less racists.

[727Goon]

Well racism as a socioeconomic system wont go away until capitalism is destroyed, but I think racism can exist in a purely social way.

[Brother No. 1]

breaking down divides between races is part of class politics and working class unity.

Yes..but first you must understand what divided them in the first place, and how it can be brought down.

Though with posts like "I hate white priviledge" it seems revleft does not even understand what that even means in its basic term..how quaint.

Yes, there are divisions of class society that include race such as the white child is generally going to be taken more into the bougoise academica into a petit-bougoise or even a bougoise status while the oppressed races of America (lets just say that for example); of African, Chicano, Asian, etc are rather put down and discredited for sterotypes and the social-phenoma of racism since "A is inherently dumber" or that "B mostly only knowsabout the street life", or in any shit with that general direction. Perhaps even having religious standpoints (Mormonism thinks all Africans are sinners, due to the "mark of god" being apparantly brown skin and 'flat noses'...yeah fuck them)

Though as compared to a white person, or even a worker, their lives are generally more 'liveable' then the impoverished African or Oppressed race worker. Though that is what happens to most minorities/migrants/etc. They are the more oppressed of society, such as how to compare a British worker and a Irish worker in the times of Colonial Ireland or even(dare you try) to an African colonial worker in the times of various Colonial African states is just fucking stupid.

They are workers, and both oppressed yet not 'equally' oppressed.


We seen anti-white racism(Zimbabwe)...

Ah yes those poor White farmers who took lands from the evil Zimbabweans in the 1800s and have used furtile land ever since the British made their damned colony on Zimbabwe. Anti-white racism would be, in that effect, what is happening to African migrant workers in Libya by the 'glorious revolters' who are fighting Quaddafi.

Lynching, threats produced with attacks, etc.

The only evidence you could bring for "anti-white racism" in Zimbabwe is taking of land from white owners...unless can we assume the fuedal landlords in China in the 30s, various intellegista in Poland, white slave owners, etc are also being oppressed wrongly?

[psgchisolm]

MX divided blacks into field niggas and house niggas, I'm just saying there's more than one kind of Uncle Tom.
And that makes it right for you to classify people based on what they are, or who they hang around and what neighborhood they went too? I can assure you there's more than just the 3 types of black people you mentioned. Why, because there are black people all over the WORLD. They live different lifestyles and trying to classify them period is bullshit.


Ok, but you come on here trying to convince all these white people that racism against blacks is worse than racism against whites, like they give a damn. Either they're down for our problems or not, theres no point in trying to convince them that racism is bad when they've grown up in a culture where we're portrayed as the number one enemy.
Who's he trying to convince? And yes they already are "down" for our problems because well all face the same oppression. The only difference is how we face it and how it presents itself.

You're looking for white peoples acceptance by talking about how racism against black people is worse than racist against white people. I think most activists already agree with this and the ones who dont you wont win over. Theres no point in trying to win over racists, we have to fight back against racism.
Who's racist on this forum:confused:? You established that you meant this forum, but what ARE you talking about. Who do we need to fight here? From what I can tell all racism is an instant ban. So WHO is he trying to win over? I think everyone has already agreed here that racism is bad.

[Die Rote Fahne]

I think racism from minorities is reaction to racism from the majority.

I'd argue against it being called racism, more or less, bigotry.

[The Red Next Door]

Yes..but first you must understand what divided them in the first place, and how it can be brought down.

Though with posts like "I hate white priviledge" it seems revleft does not even understand what that even means in its basic term..how quaint.

Yes, there are divisions of class society that include race such as the white child is generally going to be taken more into the bougoise academica into a petit-bougoise or even a bougoise status while the oppressed races of America (lets just say that for example); of African, Chicano, Asian, etc are rather put down and discredited for sterotypes and the social-phenoma of racism since "A is inherently dumber" or that "B mostly only knowsabout the street life", or in any shit with that general direction. Perhaps even having religious standpoints (Mormonism thinks all Africans are sinners, due to the "mark of god" being apparantly brown skin and 'flat noses'...yeah fuck them)

Though as compared to a white person, or even a worker, their lives are generally more 'liveable' then the impoverished African or Oppressed race worker. Though that is what happens to most minorities/migrants/etc. They are the more oppressed of society, such as how to compare a British worker and a Irish worker in the times of Colonial Ireland or even(dare you try) to an African colonial worker in the times of various Colonial African states is just fucking stupid.

They are workers, and both oppressed yet not 'equally' oppressed.



Ah yes those poor White farmers who took lands from the evil Zimbabweans in the 1800s and have used furtile land ever since the British made their damned colony on Zimbabwe. Anti-white racism would be, in that effect, what is happening to African migrant workers in Libya by the 'glorious revolters' who are fighting Quaddafi.

Lynching, threats produced with attacks, etc.

The only evidence you could bring for "anti-white racism" in Zimbabwe is taking of land from white owners...unless can we assume the fuedal landlords in China in the 30s, various intellegista in Poland, white slave owners, etc are also being oppressed wrongly?


amen.

[Pretty Flaco]

There's a difference between fighting for freedom and expressing bigotry. Bigotry just breeds more bigotry and doesn't solve racism at all.

[Hampton]

MX divided blacks into field niggas and house niggas, I'm just saying there's more than one kind of Uncle Tom.

Not sure you quite get the point here. Be it Uncle Tom, African American, or however you want to break it down, black is black is black. The more you classify different types of black people you play into their game. The more you divide among yourself we lose. I have to shake my head at your statement of "as a nigga I hate African Americans."

And as a black dude on this forum for a lot of years if you really look around it's not really white dominated. Check around shit is pretty multicolored. Shit is deeper than Dead Prez.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

I think racism from minorities is reaction to racism from the majority.

I'd argue against it being called racism, more or less, bigotry.
So 6 guys surround you and start calling you weto, cracker, etc, and then fight you but it's not racism or bigotry?

[727Goon]

Not sure you quite get the point here. Be it Uncle Tom, African American, or however you want to break it down, black is black is black. The more you classify different types of black people you play into their game. The more you divide among yourself we lose. I have to shake my head at your statement of "as a nigga I hate African Americans."

And as a black dude on this forum for a lot of years if you really look around it's not really white dominated. Check around shit is pretty multicolored. Shit is deeper than Dead Prez.

The fact is the divisions are already there. The bourgie ass Uncle Toms have already turned their backs on the community, if they want to sit there and call us uneducated niggas or whatever, I'll embrace it. Uncle Toms think of blackness as something they need to overcome to conform to white society, niggas embrace it. And I'm not saying don't go to college or whatever. Get that degree, get that money, but dont turn your back on the community. Use that education to advance the black community rather than to beg for acceptance to your white friends. Bill Cosby is not the same kind of black as I am. Colin Powell is not the same kind of black as I am. Anyways I appreciate your comment even though we disagree cause I have to say you're probably the best poster on these forums. Also I guess I was wrong but I just assumed it was white dominated because in my experience the left outside of the Uhuru movement has been white dominated.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Ah yes those poor White farmers who took lands from the evil Zimbabweans in the 1800s and have used furtile land ever since the British made their damned colony on Zimbabwe. Anti-white racism would be, in that effect, what is happening to African migrant workers in Libya by the 'glorious revolters' who are fighting Quaddafi.

Lynching, threats produced with attacks, etc.

The only evidence you could bring for "anti-white racism" in Zimbabwe is taking of land from white owners...unless can we assume the fuedal landlords in China in the 30s, various intellegista in Poland, white slave owners, etc are also being oppressed wrongly?

No systematized racism? Uhh, what about the violence of the "War Veterans"? Since when do the crimes of their ancestors mean that whites deserve getting intimidated or assaulted by armed mobs and militias? And how many rich blacks lost their farms? Oh wait, a new class of rich blacks were made who stole commercial farms from rich whites ... Don't get me wrong, there needed to be land redistribution, but the way it was done was definitely racist.

And what does Libya have to do with anything?

[Exakt]

I'm not racist or anything, some of my best friends are straight white males, but fuck crackers.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Though with posts like "I hate white priviledge" it seems revleft does not even understand what that even means in its basic term..how quaint.

Yes, there are divisions of class society that include race such as the white child is generally going to be taken more into the bougoise academica into a petit-bougoise or even a bougoise status while the oppressed races of America (lets just say that for example); of African, Chicano, Asian, etc are rather put down and discredited for sterotypes and the social-phenoma of racism since "A is inherently dumber" or that "B mostly only knowsabout the street life", or in any shit with that general direction. Perhaps even having religious standpoints (Mormonism thinks all Africans are sinners, due to the "mark of god" being apparantly brown skin and 'flat noses'...yeah fuck them)

Though as compared to a white person, or even a worker, their lives are generally more 'liveable' then the impoverished African or Oppressed race worker. Though that is what happens to most minorities/migrants/etc. They are the more oppressed of society, such as how to compare a British worker and a Irish worker in the times of Colonial Ireland or even(dare you try) to an African colonial worker in the times of various Colonial African states is just fucking stupid.

They are workers, and both oppressed yet not 'equally' oppressed.Yes there is definitely oppression in capitalism and often people are multiply oppressed - as a worker, as black, as a religious minority etc. But I think we do need to reject the post-modern idea of "privilege" not "oppression". This is based on the idea that some groups of workers are "bought-off" and comes from the post-war "marxists" who began drifting from a working class focus. I think with the demise of the post-war welfare state, it's pretty clear that the rulign class doesn't use racism to divide and "privilage" some groups, it uses racism to divided and especially oppress groups to weaken the whole.

Radicals should call out oppression for what it is rather than focus on non-oppression and calling it "privilege". Is it a privilege to hold your lover's hand and not get beat up, or is it a minimum condition we should expect in life for everyone! It's not heterosexual privilege, it's LGBT oppression, not white privilage to not be targeted for police repression, it's black/latino/native american/youth oppression.

[Tim Finnegan]

Yes there is definitely oppression in capitalism and often people are multiply oppressed - as a worker, as black, as a religious minority etc. But I think we do need to reject the post-modern idea of "privilege" not "oppression". This is based on the idea that some groups of workers are "bought-off" and comes from the post-war "marxists" who began drifting from a working class focus. I think with the demise of the post-war welfare state, it's pretty clear that the rulign class doesn't use racism to divide and "privilage" some groups, it uses racism to divided and especially oppress groups to weaken the whole.

Radicals should call out oppression for what it is rather than focus on non-oppression and calling it "privilege". Is it a privilege to hold your lover's hand and not get beat up, or is it a minimum condition we should expect in life for everyone! It's not heterosexual privilege, it's LGBT oppression, not white privilage to not be targeted for police repression, it's black/latino/native american/youth oppression.
I'm not sure if that's how the term "privilege" is used, at least in my experience. I understand it to mean to the social, economic and political prioritising of certain groups and the consequent marginalising of others, which is to say, that it is the ideological means by which oppression is justified and sustained, rather than an alternative understanding of the same social phenomena. "Privilege" here is not some special reward offered to a higher-status group, but the very superiority of status itself; its usage is more like that of the old feudal "Law of Privilege", rather than in the colloquial sense of a bonus or advantage. Straight privilege and queer oppression (for example) are two sides of the same coin, the former generating the latter, and the latter being justified by the former, rather than two entirely removed understandings of the same social phenomena.

If people shy away from discussing "oppression", it usually seems to be a fear of appearing earnest or melodramatic, or a frustration with having to ceaselessly introduce the concept of structural oppression to nit-wits who think that they are personally above blame, rather than an actual divergence of thought.

[black magick hustla]

the white man doesnt control anybody or whatever bosses control shit and most of them happen to be white. there are loads of fucking destitute white people out there in the rural areas. the white man doesnt control "obama" or "collin powel" - both of them are really fucking powerful men that have control over vast peoples of all races. imma not gonna get guilt tripped by a bunch of nationalist weirdos who use the race card as a dumb excuse for shitty politics. i hate my brown bosses as much as my white ones

[mosfeld]

OT: Check out the speeches of Tim Wise (http://www.google.com/search?q=tim+wise+video+google&hl=is&client=safari&rls=en&prmd=ivnso&source=univ&tbs=vid:1&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=grB4TbmENNPP4gbZibW6BQ&ved=0CCcQqwQ) on white privilege. They are excellent, credits go to Gonzeau for originally showing them to me.

[Marxach-Léinínach]

As a white guy I would also just like to say fuck crackers :D

[Die Rote Fahne]

So 6 guys surround you and start calling you weto, cracker, etc, and then fight you but it's not racism or bigotry?

Racism involves a power structure. I, as a white guy, hold more societal power, institutionally, than those moinorities.

Since the power hierarchy in society puts me ahead, that disqualifies that racism can be expressed by a minority group.

HOWEVER, if I were in a society where the majority group was not whites, and that occured, I would call it racism.

[Tim Finnegan]

the white man doesnt control anybody or whatever bosses control shit and most of them happen to be white. there are loads of fucking destitute white people out there in the rural areas. the white man doesnt control "obama" or "collin powel" - both of them are really fucking powerful men that have control over vast peoples of all races. imma not gonna get guilt tripped by a bunch of nationalist weirdos who use the race card as a dumb excuse for shitty politics. i hate my brown bosses as much as my white ones
It is possible for distinct power structures to intersect without having to overlay exactly.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I'm not sure if that's how the term "privilege" is used, at least in my experience. I understand it to mean to the social, economic and political prioritising of certain groups and the consequent marginalising of others, which is to say, that it is the ideological means by which oppression is justified and sustained, rather than an alternative understanding of the same social phenomena.And I think the way most academics approach this is an upside-down way to look at oppression in capitalist society. Are certain groups “favored” by the system or are groups “oppressed”? Oppression of groups leads to repression of more people outside that group – for example restrictions on black enfranchisement after the Reconstruction period was a racist attack on blacks but had the added effect of disenfranchising poor whites who also could not pass reading tests. In fact every attack on black people in the US has resulted harming the working class as a whole rather than “privileging” certain parts of it. Are white workers privileged to now live in a country where their kids can’t get an education due to the state prioritizing prisons and justifying it through anti-black/Latino racism? The same people who lead anti-gay attacks aren’t trying to “privilege” heterosexual relationships in general; they are trying to repress these relationships too by eliminating birth control and sex-ed and so on.

There is oppression in the US, directed at specific groups, yes, but this oppression hurts all workers and I think that’s the case we need to build. Telling poor straight or poor white or poor male workers that they are “privileged” is not going to build united working class fight-back to oppression, it’s going to be divisive among workers as people try and keep score of who has what privilege and what privileges are better or worse than others. Does a gay black male have male-privilege? Does a white trans have more privilege than a Japanese lesbian? It just doesn’t make sense to talk of privilege.

Also part of this theory I reject is that the ruling class “gives” privilege freely. This has never been the case, people fought for unions, it was racism that divided the movement and prevented blacks or other groups from being able to join the unions and so on and in turn this made the union movement weaker – or practically a non-starter in the US south for the last 100 years. Even the first anti-black restrictions in the US colonies came after a multi-racial rebellion of servants: white indentured servants didn’t have “privilege” black servants had their restrictions and oppression increased.


"Privilege" here is not some special reward offered to a higher-status group, but the very superiority of status itself; its usage is more like that of the old feudal "Law of Privilege", rather than in the colloquial sense of a bonus or advantage. Straight privilege and queer oppression (for example) are two sides of the same coin, the former generating the latter, and the latter being justified by the former, rather than two entirely removed understandings of the same social phenomena.

If people shy away from discussing "oppression", it usually seems to be a fear of appearing earnest or melodramatic, or a frustration with having to ceaselessly introduce the concept of structural oppression to nit-wits who think that they are personally above blame, rather than an actual divergence of thought.Again I think this is incorrect. LGBT oppression does not come from “straight-privilege” – it comes from ruling classes that need people to adhere to a way of living that maintains the status quo. They want little nuclear families who take it apon themselves to deal with healthcare, daycare, and so on. Sexism and Homophobia are two tools they use for this. And are heterosexual people realty “privileged” in a homophobic world – one where hetero-men feel pressure to hide their emotions, to take abuse and not break their stiff upper lip, where they are seen as weak if they’d rather spend time with their kids than put in overtime at work?

The concept of “privilege” in a country with the levels of inequality we have in places like the US is a joke. It’s an academic concept and not something systematic that can be fought head-on (which is why it is the theory favored by academics IMO) like oppression. I think we need to be clear than “An injury to one is an injury to all” and that’s how oppression works in capitalism: the “weak” or small are attacked and repressed in order to divide the working class and in the end oppress us all.

Our line should not be that some workers are too privileged, but that some workers are specifically singled-out for repression, oppressed, and that ALL workers deserve MORE “privileges” in society.

[black magick hustla]

It is possible for distinct power structures to intersect without having to overlay exactly.
i do think "white privilege" exists. i think the us is a very racist country and i think institutions are racially discriminating based on very historical and economic concrete issues. however, i do think a lot of racial issues are almost completely influenced by class (for example, indians from india don't get as fucked over as mexicans, this is because mexicans are poor workers that come to the US in subhuman conditons). racism is a superstructural condition. i don't think its correct to say it is an issue of the white man vs the brown peoples, its a stupid mentality. its an issue of the bourgeosie, which has a huge white faction, vs the class.

[Tim Finnegan]

@Jimmie Higgins: I still think that there's some miscommunication here. "Privilege", in this sense, does not refer to any particular advantage bestowed upon a group by the ruling class, but the general prioritising of that group, and of the experience and perspective of that group in society and culture, which serves to sustain oppression by normalising the higher status of the privileged group. Most oppressors do not actively see the oppression in which they participate as a social imbalance, and in many cases do not even realise that the mechanics of oppression exist, because they see the system of oppression that offers them a relative advantage (if not an objective one) as natural, normal and proper. Just look at all the Teahadists who are convinced that the most dominant groups in the US- straights, men, whites, etc.- are actively oppressed. They genuinely see established, normalised systems of oppression as equality, because they have never once been obliged to look at the world from the perspective of the oppressed (something which queer people, women, people of colour, etc. have to do ever single day), and so interpret any threat to that oppression as a form of oppression in itself. That's not something that one finds in, say, political campaigns of oppression, e.g. the Stalinist purging of the Left Opposition, so there's clearly some additional mechanism at work.

A couple of particular points, though:

In regards to your comments on cumulative privilege: I agree, attempting to discern some league table of privilege would be stupid, but no more so than attempting to discern a similar table of oppression. The problem there isn't the measure used, but the individualistic identity politics that would lead one to that end.

In regards to your point about the hollow privileges of the straight, cisgender man: I agree entirely. Again, nobody said that privilege was objectively beneficial, merely that it was relatively beneficial. The conditions on which systems of oppression based on invisible characteristics (e.g. sexuality, class, normative gender identity, as opposed to, e.g. race, disability, age) are often constructed in such a fashion as to be profoundly destructive to the, for desperate want of a better word, "inner self" of a privileged individual, and so are in not just the objective but the subjective interests of the privileged group to over-turn.
After all, didn't Marx observe that the bourgeoisie are also individually oppressed by their economic status- made slaves to accumulation, and rendered unable to find meaningful purpose in productivity activity- and so in need of emancipation? Why can the same not be be true of straight, white, cisgender men?


i do think "white privilege" exists. i think the us is a very racist country and i think institutions are racially discriminating based on very historical and economic concrete issues. however, i do think a lot of racial issues are almost completely influenced by class (for example, indians from india don't get as fucked over as mexicans, this is because mexicans are poor workers that come to the US in subhuman conditons). racism is a superstructural condition. i don't think its correct to say it is an issue of the white man vs the brown peoples, its a stupid mentality. its an issue of the bourgeosie, which has a huge white faction, vs the class.
Ah, well, that I certainly agree with.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Interesting points and good debte Tim,

@Jimmie Higgins: I still think that there's some miscommunication here. "Privilege", in this sense, does not refer to any particular advantage bestowed upon a group by the ruling class,But this is the argument made by post-modernists in the US: the worlking class is bought-off by the ruling class granting privilages to some in order to unite "privilaged" workers to the ruling class.


but the general prioritising of that group, and of the experience and perspective of that group in society and culture, which serves to sustain oppression by normalising the higher status of the privileged group. This assumes that there is one "white" experience or one "stright-lifestyle" to be prioritized. This simply is not consistent in history since the experience of white slave-owners and white debtors was quite different. Also since the idea of "normal" heterosexual relationships and the nuclear family is a social construct has changed over time.


Most oppressors do not actively see the oppression in which they participate as a social imbalance, and in many cases do not even realise that the mechanics of oppression exist, because they see the system of oppression that offers them a relative advantage (if not an objective one) as natural, normal and proper. What's an oppressor, do you mean bigots or racists?

Just look at all the Teahadists who are convinced that the most dominant groups in the US- straights, men, whites, etc.- are actively oppressed. They genuinely see established, normalised systems of oppression as equality, because they have never once been obliged to look at the world from the perspective of the oppressed (something which queer people, women, people of colour, etc. have to do ever single day), and so interpret any threat to that oppression as a form of oppression in itself.


That's not something that one finds in, say, political campaigns of oppression, e.g. the Stalinist purging of the Left Opposition, so there's clearly some additional mechanism at work.I thought they argued that the opposition was all conspiring against Russian workers and allying with Germany or the Tsar... just as Tea-Partyists claim that their opposition are agents of "alien powers (or religions)" or want the return of an "oppressive system of government" from the past.

US racists have developed this myth of "reverse-racism" - but that's not because they really believe that they are "oppressed" by immigrants, but because they are trying to justify inequality and it is no longer acceptable to say "blacks have to be in their place". But materially it's the same drive with new arguments - new words, same old white supremacy. They are not fighting necessarily to keep privilege, but are convinced that they must fight over crumbs. "Privilege Theory" doesn't help overcome that, it just exacerbates it, because rather than locating the source of the problem in oppression, it becomes about relative privilege - why would some guy living in an apartment and has a shitty life, if convinced that his straight and maleness gives him an edge, want to end that oppression and therefore that little edge in a competitive capitalist society?


In regards to your point about the hollow privileges of the straight, cisgender man: I agree entirely. Again, nobody said that privilege was objectively beneficial, merely that it was relatively beneficial.I'd argue that it is not even realitivly beneficial. Look at the rascist attacks designed to help convince people to allow cuts to welfare: Regan used the myth of (black) "welfare queens" that were having lots of babies and chasing checkes from YOUR hard-earned money! So welfare was cut and what demographic group was the most hurt - white males! White men were the biggest recipients of welfare checks - so here is a concrete example of OPPRESSSION, not privileging at work to attack part of the class in order to hurt the whole class. This despite the fact that the language of privilaging was at play - but in the final word, that privileging language was merely a smokescreen by the ruling class to divide us and carry out an attack.


After all, didn't Marx observe that the bourgeoisie are also individually oppressed by their economic status- made slaves to accumulation, and rendered unable to find meaningful purpose in productivity activity- and so in need of emancipation? Why can the same not be be true of straight, white, cisgender men?Because one example (the workings of society) is material and "privilege" is an immaterial and subjective construct.

[Tim Finnegan]

Interesting points and good debte Tim,
But this is the argument made by post-modernists in the US: the worlking class is bought-off by the ruling class granting privilages to some in order to unite "privilaged" workers to the ruling class.
Well, certainly, that's how some liberals would frame it, but it's hardly a necessray application of the concept, any more than the recognition of imperial exploitation necessarily demands the theorising of a "labour aristocracy". More radical applications treat it as the means by which systems of oppression are sustained; the superstructure to the base, if you'll allow me yet another poorly-constructed analogy. ;)


This assumes that there is one "white" experience or one "stright-lifestyle" to be prioritized. This simply is not consistent in history since the experience of white slave-owners and white debtors was quite different. Also since the idea of "normal" heterosexual relationships and the nuclear family is a social construct has changed over time.Well, firstly, when I say a "white experience", I don't mean to imply that all white people lead identical experiences. What I mean is that they share the generally perceived "normal" experience of being white within a white supremacist society, specifically, the experience of liberty from race-based oppression. (Noting, of course, that systems of ethnic oppression in the West, as elsewhere, are more complex than just "dominant monolithic race > everyone else".)
Secondly, yes, the actual normalised experience isn't necessarily one possessed by all, most or even many members of the privileged group. But all that means is that the great majority of privileged people are not attributed the full status lent to this normalised ideal, not that they will be tossed entirely to the side.


What's an oppressor, do you mean bigots or racists?I'm afraid I'm not sure what you mean.


I thought they argued that the opposition was all conspiring against Russian workers and allying with Germany or the Tsar... just as Tea-Partyists claim that their opposition are agents of "alien powers (or religions)" or want the return of an "oppressive system of government" from the past.Yes, they had their clap-trap, but my point was that there was no social construction that normalised the experience of Party bureaucrats and marginalised that of the members of the Left Opposition, as there is with, say, men and women, or straight people and queer people.


US racists have developed this myth of "reverse-racism" - but that's not because they really believe that they are "oppressed" by immigrants, but because they are trying to justify inequality and it is no longer acceptable to say "blacks have to be in their place". But materially it's the same drive with new arguments - new words, same old white supremacy. They are not fighting necessarily to keep privilege, but are convinced that they must fight over crumbs.That seems to imply that these people are all entirely concious of the illegitimacy of the oppression they perpetuate, which I'm not sure is the case. While it's certainly true that many more are actively desiring of domination than my previous comments allowed, I don't think that these people- at least, in most cases- realise that they are actively distorting the playing field, but, rather, believe that the domination of one group by another is how the playing field "naturally" is. The system of oppression which they support generates social privilege by lending disproportionate (or even exclusive) weight to the experiences and perspectives of those at the top of pile, perspectives which invariably come (or at least are presented with) an iron-clad conviction of their own righteousness, thus making the unnaturalness of the system of oppression which they perpetuate invisible to them.


"Privilege Theory" doesn't help overcome that, it just exacerbates it, because rather than locating the source of the problem in oppression, it becomes about relative privilege - why would some guy living in an apartment and has a shitty life, if convinced that his straight and maleness gives him an edge, want to end that oppression and therefore that little edge in a competitive capitalist society?You say this as if false conciousness is a novelty in Marxist thought. :confused:


I'd argue that it is not even realitivly beneficial. Look at the rascist attacks designed to help convince people to allow cuts to welfare: Regan used the myth of (black) "welfare queens" that were having lots of babies and chasing checkes from YOUR hard-earned money! So welfare was cut and what demographic group was the most hurt - white males! White men were the biggest recipients of welfare checks - so here is a concrete example of OPPRESSSION, not privileging at work to attack part of the class in order to hurt the whole class. This despite the fact that the language of privilaging was at play - but in the final word, that privileging language was merely a smokescreen by the ruling class to divide us and carry out an attack.Well, that's what I meant when I said that it wasn't objectively beneficial; that, in absolute terms, racism, sexism, etc. are used to harm white, male, etc. people. However, it must still be acknowledged that social constructions which give disadvantage people of colour, women, etc. necessarily lend relative advantage to their privileged counter-parts; it is simply not possible to have a "down", in this context, without a corresponding "up", even if the simple fact of the imbalance pushes both sides further down than they would otherwise be.


Because one example (the workings of society) is material and "privilege" is an immaterial and subjective construct.:laugh: Ok, yeah, it wasn't the strongest analogy, but you get my drift. One does not need to benefit absolutely from a system to occupy a position of privilege within that system.

[TheUnconventionalist]

Does that shit even happen?

I had it happen to me before. Well, I wasn't attacked for being White per say. But I was in a Mexican American Studies class, and my reactionary state capitalist professor(who supports the Wall Street Journal position in favor of open borders) exulted the so called diversity of my class, while attacking the so called lack of diversity in the school as a whole. To give you an idea, the class was about 80% Mestizo(mixed european/amerindian heritage mainly from Mexico), and then there was one African American, a Jewish Girl, and two White men(one of whom was me). And the school is about 80% white. So in this reactionary liberal's mind, diversity meant having more people of his own ethnic composition. And I wouldn't mind his chauvinist position so much if he didn't attack white ethnic chauvinism. You either support all ethnic nationalism or you oppose it all, but you can't say you support ethnic domination for you group, that just makes you a supremacist.

[Jimmie Higgins]

^Was this the comment he was restricted for or was there an even worse one somewhere else?

[Robocommie]

^Was this the comment he was restricted for or was there an even worse one somewhere else?

Even worse one in the thread about the German former Neo-Nazi who got a sex change

[Jimmie Higgins]

Even worse one in the thread about the German former Neo-Nazi who got a sex change:laugh: Ok, that's enough - I don't even want to look it up to see what was said.