What do you think about nationalism? I think nationalism is evil

[MarxistMan]

Hello all, do you think that there are still many socialists in this world, who are also attached to their flag and nation? I ask this because many people love to blame Americans nationalists for their flag-waving, but do not point the flag-waving and nationalist feelings of other countries.

I would like to know if you think that nationalism makes people one way or the other a bit hateful and resentful against culture, music, and languages, outside of their countries.

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[Ocean Seal]

Hello all, do you think that there are still many socialists in this world, who are also attached to their flag and nation? I ask this because many people love to blame Americans nationalists for their flag-waving, but do not point the flag-waving and nationalist feelings of other countries.

I would like to know if you think that nationalism makes people one way or the other a bit hateful and resentful against culture, music, and languages, outside of their countries.

.
Yes, nationalism is a tool used for increasing xenophobia and racism. The idea of a national conscience is the idea of belonging to a nation and not to a class. It is the idea that somehow where you were born makes you superior. It is a negative conscience. It is worse in first world countries though. For example, in the United States nationalism is used to promote hatred towards Hispanics (especially in the Southwest) and Arabs. Nationalism is the basis for organizations like the Minutemen who spend their time trying to deport law-abiding proletarians of Mexican origin. Recently a tragic case surfaced where a Minuteman asshole killed a 9 year old girl.
But in say a country like Vietnam during their wars of independence nationalism is still negative conscience but not a reactionary one. The reason I say this is because I am opposed to nationalism, but in the case of seeking independence from imperialist oppression its okay to have this conscience because it is fighting against a greater evil.

[ChampionDishWasher]

Well, to the first question, I doubt there are any true socialists who are attached to their flag, as that would be rather contradictory in nature. There are, however, those who are attached to their nation-assuming that you mean the group that shares their culture-which is completely understandable and acceptable.
As for nationalism, I don't think it necessarily "makes" people resentful to others, but those who are more susceptible to that type of bs are more likely to be so.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

"It's worse to be a traitor to your class than to your country." - Bill Haywood
Nationalism is fake. It's a myth; An idea to help "unify" people of a country against another country. We all know how that goes... Capitalism goes where profit it to be made. Nationalism is against working-class interests, because it divides and conquers the working class, regardless of skin color, sex, religion, etc.

I remember watching the mini-series Band of Brothers, and although it wasn't necessarily about class, you could see the importance in this moment. A veteran was discussing how maybe the German soldier was just like him. He said I like fishing, he may like hunting. But they were put into circumstances where although they may be just alike and the same class, they were pitted to fight against one another. That is what happens when nationalism happens. We're killing our true allies, a fellow proletarian.

[9]

@MarxistMan:

"Evil" doesn't exist, so no, nationalism isn't "evil". What it is is completely reactionary.

Its funny, tho... I'm not really sure how you reconcile your opinion that "nationalism is evil" with your opinion (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2038966&postcount=3) that "socialism is the real patriotism"...


Hello my brothers, what I feel about the supporters of The Tea Party is pitty and compassion not hate. They are real mind-manipulated and brainwashed by the yellow TV news channels, and the yellow press. Specifically by the TV channel FOX into thinking that they are being nationalists by hating the muslims. They even say that they are christians, but real christianity is based on loving all humans and even turning the other cheek, and even on loving enemies.

The hatred against muslims and foreign people of USA is not real nationalism and independence of USA. True self-determination, independence of USA and true nationalism would be to kick the Zionist Israeli bankers out of the USA, the Israeli Lobby, and to nationalize all giant corporations under workers-control

In fact you can even let all mexican undocumented workers to work in the USA and that is still nationalism

So true nationalism, and true independence of the USA would be to support a Socialist Workers Party for the 2012 elections, and not The Republican Party, The Democrat Party or The Tea Party who are a lot more loyal to Israel, to the Zionist Power Configuration, to International Corporations, International Bankers, and not loyal to american poor people at all.

We need a socialist president, because socialism is the real patriotism. So what I feel for the supporters of the Tea Party is pitty because of how mind-controlled they are by FOX news channel.

[Sixiang]

"I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth; I am a citizen of the world. "
— Eugene Victor Debs

[Cencus]

Nationalism; load of bollocks.

I live on a council estate, below the poverty line, I have more in common with other poor folks from around the world, than with the folks who run this country. Lines drawn on a map by elites in days gone by mean bugger all to me.

[Koba1917]

Nationalism and Communism in my opinion aren't very compatible. An Ideology in which everyone is equal and another ideology where one group is superior than another...doesn't really make much sense.

[Sixiang]

Nationalism and Communism in my opinion aren't very compatible. An Ideology in which everyone is equal and another ideology where one group is superior than another...doesn't really make much sense.

They aren't compatible at all. The proletariat has no nation or country. They are a global class.

[Hexen]

Nationalism is a divide & conquer strategy.

[NGNM85]

'Evil' is one of those words I generally avoid using, for the most part. It is fair, however, to say that nationalism is both philosophically bankrupt, as an idea, as well as being socially destructive. This poisonous idea nearly led to the annihilation of our species once before, in the atomic age, we simply cannot afford to suborn such insanity any longer.

[Dimmu]

Nationalism is a divide & conquer strategy.

Yep.. Nothing more to add. Create tensions between two countries or nations, let them fight each other and sell weapons to both.

[Omsk]

You people dont know what nationalism is.:)
Nationalism gained a relatively negative meaning only in the recent decades,nationalism has many different variants,a gigantic spectrum of posibilities,so you generally cant speak of nationalism in a strict and straight line sentence.There are many variety's of nationalism,for example:
National purity
Civic nationalism
Ethnocentrism
Expansionist nationalism
Left-wing nationalism
Territorial nationalism
These different 'nationalism's' are wrong,in their basics,and they are something we should fight against.
Down with nationalism!Every working man is equal!

[Thirsty Crow]

You people dont know what nationalism is.:)
Nationalism gained a relatively negative meaning only in the recent decades,nationalism has many different variants,a gigantic spectrum of posibilities,so you generally cant speak of nationalism in a strict and straight line sentence.There are many variety's of nationalism,for example:
National purity
Civic nationalism
Ethnocentrism
Expansionist nationalism
Left-wing nationalism
Territorial nationalism
These different 'nationalism's' are wrong,in their basics,and they are something we should fight against.
Down with nationalism!Every working man is equal!
Why don't you explain the differences?

As far as I'm concerned, nationalism is an effective ideological tool when it comes to repressing workers' movements which are getting radicalized.

[Omsk]

Oh yes,lets make it clear- IN NO WAY DO I SUPPORT NATIONALISM.

National purity: Some nationalists, defining the national community in ethnic, linguistic, cultural, historic, or religious terms (or a combination of these), may then seek to deem certain minorities as not truly being a part of the 'national community' as they define it.

Civic nationalism:Liberal nationalism,(defines the nations)

Liberal Nationalism:a non xenophobic version of nationalism,it promotes the ideas of a national identity.It is compatible with with liberal values of freedom, tolerance, equality, and individual rights.

Ethnocentrism-ethnocentric protectionism or ethnocentric supremacy

Expansionist nationalism- one of the most aggresive versions of nationalism,Adolf Hitler's territorial demands are good example how nationalism can be used to gain territory. (in all lands where the German minority was large enough.)

Left-wing nationalism - socialist nationalism,refers to any political movement that combines left-wing politics with nationalism.

Nationalism is a twisted and deranged thing that was shaped by the rulers who wanted to control the working class,turning it into a weapon.

[L.A.P.]

Right when I saw this thread, I knew it was started by MarxistMan because of the "I think it's evil part". I'm actually not as opposed to nationalism as others are, and their reasons as to why they hate nationalism makes perfect sense since it can cause racism, but I think nationalism can be used as a good tool when motivating people to fight against imperialist powers. Especially if it's left-wing nationalism, it could give the people a sense of solidarity and in turn will cause them to be more lenient to ideas like socialism because it creates more of a unity of their people rather than capitalism that pits them against each other. However, having a religious sense of patriotism is idiocy and having a crazy amount of nationalism will always lead to fascist tendencies.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

I'm more of a regionalist than a nationalist. Midwest, fuck yea! :cool:
But I'm'a not get all up in the east and west coasts grills, ya digg?

[Tim Finnegan]

I think the casual conflation of all nationalisms with consciously imperialistic nationalisms speaks of a certain limited perspective on the part of some comrades here. Ireland is not England, Catalonia is not Spain, Venezuela is not the United States.


As far as I'm concerned, nationalism is an effective ideological tool when it comes to repressing workers' movements which are getting radicalized.
I agree. As much as nationalism can be the tool of capital, it can also be the weapon against it, by rallying workers to a common cause greater than their own investment in the capitalist system. The key, really, is how this nationalism is constructed, which is to say, whether it serves some abstract entity declared "nation", or the greater mass of people. The late great James Connolly, a man dedicated in both his nationalism and internationalism, offered powerful words on the subject:

Ireland as distinct from her people, is nothing to me: and the man who is bubbling over with love and enthusiasm for Ireland, and can yet pass unmoved through our streets and witness all the wrong and the suffering, the shame and the degradation brought upon the people of Ireland – aye, brought by Irishmen upon Irishmen and women, without burning to end it, is in my opinion, a fraud and a liar in his heart, no matter how he loves that combination of chemical elements he is pleased to call Ireland.

[Triple A]

Isnt MarxistMan that troll?

[Agent Ducky]

I too look down upon nationalism. It's really sad how most people never question it, and I see it as an oft-used tool to control the populace. Personally when my class says the Pledge every morning I get up and go "Screw nationalism."

[Magón]

I'm more of a regionalist than a nationalist. Midwest, fuck yea! :cool:
But I'm'a not get all up in the east and west coasts grills, ya digg?

You might not get up in our grills, but we sure as hell be gettin' up in yours! :cool: WEST COAST!!!!

[mosfeld]

I don't really see the logic behind lumping all forms of nationalism into one big pile. As a matter of fact, there are several nationalist ideologies and they often contend with each other. These nationalist ideologies boil down into two camps, though: nationalism of the oppressed and nationalism of the oppressor.

Would you consider the nationalism of the oppressed Palestinians to be on equal terms with the colonial, nationalist oppressor ideology of Zionism? Is black nationalism as evil as white nationalism? You have to be a fool and a clown to think so.

[Tim Finnegan]

I don't really see the logic between lumping all forms of nationalism into one big pile. As a matter of fact, there are several nationalist ideologies and they often contend with each other. These nationalist ideologies boil down into two camps, though: nationalism of the oppressed and nationalism of the oppressor.
I agree. It's also worth noting the two narratives typical of these camps: the "nationalism of the oppressed" holds that the nation is being oppressed by an external force, and so strives to liberate itself from it, while the "nationalism of the oppressor" holds that the nation is being dragged down by some internal parasite, which it then seeks to expunge or to subjugate this parasite. The former seeks to alter the constitution of political and even economic power, the latter merely to re-affirm it.

[RATM-Eubie]

Yea nationalism sucks
Patriotism and nationalism are two different things.

[FarewellSlavianka]

Nationalism is dangerous because it gives a blind concept of pride in their country, their flag, etc. It's as brainwashing as religion, you're just worshiping and upholding something with completely artificial value. I'd say nationalism is even a distorter in left-wing movements as it distracts it's supporters from actual struggle and problems with it's emphasis on country and national sovereignty. The Worker's Have No Country.

[Magón]

Yea nationalism sucks
Patriotism and nationalism are two different things.

“Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.”
- Samuel Johnson

[Gears]

I am not a Nationalist. I am an Internationalist pretty much to the max. But, like the people on this board, I am an Internationalist from a proletarian perspective.

I am also not anti-Culture.

[Tim Finnegan]

The Worker's Have No Country.
Easy to say when you're American.